Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => General Pizza Making => Topic started by: Pod4477 on September 12, 2018, 02:39:21 AM

Title: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 12, 2018, 02:39:21 AM
Hello,

Iíve been trying to recreate Pizzeria Reginaís dough and it has led me to a question that I thought I would ask. I tasted the inside crumb of their crust and noticed a slightly sour flavor, but otherwise pretty normal Italian bread taste and consistency. But, I noticed the top and bottom part tasted very much like grape nuts cereal. Since grape nuts are so crispy, I figured this might be from the Maillard reaction going on in the cereal and pizza crust. I havenít narrowed it down to the outer part of the crust until now. I also havenít tasted this strong of a grape nuts flavor with any other pizza crust. Since grape nuts have malted barley flour and seem very Maillardíed, I assume this is happening with the pizza crust as well. Regina cooks so low temp that this seems to make sense. Could this be diastatic malted barley flour or even non-diastatic malt added to achieve this, and would it make sense that the malted barley would come through more when the dough gets crisped rather than the inside crumb? If they are using it, it hasnít to be more than the amount added to bread flour/some high gluten flours, since other pizzerias donít have this flavor. Thank you!
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: QwertyJuan on September 12, 2018, 05:50:05 PM
You talking about the place in Boston??  ???
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 13, 2018, 02:29:11 AM
You talking about the place in Boston??  ???

Haha yup, but Iíve noticed it at their other locations in MA. Whatever I do, I cannot seem to get close to the taste of it. Thinking about it more tonight, there is a taste to their crust that is distinctive, and the only thing I can compare it to is the taste of Grape Nuts. I guess it can only be yeast or malted barley flour that could give it that flavor right? I believe the Miallard reaction plays a big role in their crust taste, because the crumb is pretty basic, but itís the browned crust that really had that Grape Nuts/malt taste. 
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: QwertyJuan on September 13, 2018, 09:55:50 PM
Haha yup, but Iíve noticed it at their other locations in MA. Whatever I do, I cannot seem to get close to the taste of it. Thinking about it more tonight, there is a taste to their crust that is distinctive, and the only thing I can compare it to is the taste of Grape Nuts. I guess it can only be yeast or malted barley flour that could give it that flavor right? I believe the Miallard reaction plays a big role in their crust taste, because the crumb is pretty basic, but itís the browned crust that really had that Grape Nuts/malt taste.

Only ate their once... and yes it's a distinct taste. To me I was assuming it was a sourdough starter that I was tasting. But I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: jsaras on September 13, 2018, 10:06:08 PM
Try adding 0.2-2% low diastatic malt.  It took off here on the forum shortly after Tony Gemignaniís ďPizza BibleĒ was published and itís likely the thing youíre looking for.  IMO, the longer the fermentation, the less you need to use and itís not well suited for temps above 650F.  The Lintner values vary from brand to brand, so you donít want to add it blindly. 
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 14, 2018, 01:38:24 PM
Well their crumb does have a sourdough taste, but maybe their using a sourdough flavor as someone noted on here.  Thank you for the low diastic suggestion. I bought two: breadtopia diastatic malted barley flour (which someone said had a 210 lintner, so I boiled it with water to try and make it non-diastatic) and Briess Golden Light Non-Diastatic Malt from a home brew store. Briessí website says that diastatic malt doesnít improve flavor, but I find that hard to believe on the crust. Which malt do you think would be best added to an already malted flour? I can also try and get a 20 Lintner diastatic malt to compare.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 14, 2018, 03:04:07 PM
Pod4477,

After reading your recent posts, they jogged my memory about another member who inquired about a possible recipe, maybe a reverse engineered version, for the Pizzeria Regina (PR) pizzas. What I specifically remembered was that PR was using a special form of yeast in making their doughs. The PR thread where this is all discussed is at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10382.msg91533#msg91533

Today, I went back to that thread and saw that there were some links that no longer work. To the extent that I was able, I tried to find replacements for those inoperative links. Unfortunately, in at least one case it appears that the subject matter was not archived at the Wayback Machine. But fortunately, in a few cases, I had excerpted the relevant material in case the links ever went dead.

I also went back to the PR website (http://www.pizzeriaregina.com/) since it has been years since I had done so, to see if anything new was said at the website. One of the important things that I saw was this statement about their crust:

Our secret century old recipe uses a special natural yeast and is aged to perfection

The above quote is important because it refers to some of the matters discussed at length, but with not much clarification or resolution, in the PR thread referenced above. But it is clear that PR is doing something important with the yeast used in their dough, and it harkens back to a century old recipe according to PR. But the word "natural" can mean many things. It might mean sourdough, as some have speculated, but it might mean something else that has "natural" attributes.

As you perhaps know, PR uses a commissary to make its dough. At the time of the PR thread referenced above, the commissary was located in Charlestown. But that location was changed to Woburn, as discussed in this article at https://patch.com/massachusetts/sudbury/boston-restaurant-associates-moves-commissary-charlestown-woburn. So, if you are going to dumpster dive, or watch for delivery trucks that unload at the commissary, you want to go to Woburn.

You might also enjoy these articles, the second one of which talks about the long fermentation period (three to six days) and what that does to the yeast:

https://boston.eater.com/2012/5/9/6588387/master-pizzamakers-richie-zapata-of-pizzeria-regina

and https://www.fontanini.com/food-service/fontanini-helps-make-boston-pizzeria-must-eat

Serious Eats also did a piece on PR at https://slice.seriouseats.com/2012/08/boston-pizzeria-regina-the-original.html, and there is a YouTube review video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czKHgxtldac.

It also appears that is has not always been a bed of roses for PR. Through its private owners, Boston Restaurant Associates, they ended up in bankruptcy court in 2015. You can get some good insights into the PR business in this legal document:

https://www.mnat.com/assets/htmldocuments/FirstDayDeclaration_05-20-15_BostonRestaurantAssociatesInc.pdf.pdf

To the above, I would add that in my experience, pizza companies that use commissaries, even for small numbers of stores as is the case with PR, tend not to do extraordinary or complicated things with their doughs and they pay close attention to costs. Maybe PR is doing something unique with its dough but with the problems they have had they are perhaps trying to keep things as simple as possible at the operational level.

Good luck.

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 14, 2018, 03:53:14 PM
Pod4477,

After reading your recent posts, they joggled my memory about another member who inquired about a possible recipe, maybe a reverse engineered version, for the Pizzeria Regina (PR) pizzas. What I specifically remembered was that PR was using a special form of yeast in making their doughs. The PR thread where this is all discussed is at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10382.msg91533#msg91533

Today, I went back to that thread and saw that there were some links that no longer work. To the extent that I was able, I tried to find replacements for those inoperative links. Unfortunately, in at least one case it appears that the subject matter was not archived at the Wayback Machine. But fortunately, in a few cases, I had excerpted the relevant material in case the links ever went dead.

I also went back to the PR website since it has been years since I had done so, to see if anything new was said at the website. One of the important things that I saw was this statement about their crust:

Our secret century old recipe uses a special natural yeast and is aged to perfection

The above quote is important because it refers to some of the matters discussed at length, but with not much clarification or resolution, in the PR thread referenced above. But it is clear that PR is doing something important with the yeast used in their dough, and it harkens back to a century old recipe according to PR. But the word "natural" can mean many things. It might mean sourdough, as some have speculated, but it might mean something else that has "natural" attributes.

As you perhaps know, PR uses a commissary to make its dough. At the time of the PR thread referenced above, the commissary was located in Charlestown. But that location was changed to Woburn, as discussed in this article at https://patch.com/massachusetts/sudbury/boston-restaurant-associates-moves-commissary-charlestown-woburn. So, if you are going to dumpster dive, or watch for delivery trucks that unload at the commissary, you want to go to Woburn.

You might also enjoy these articles, the second one of which talks about the long fermentation period (three to six days) and what that does to the yeast:

https://boston.eater.com/2012/5/9/6588387/master-pizzamakers-richie-zapata-of-pizzeria-regina

and https://www.fontanini.com/food-service/fontanini-helps-make-boston-pizzeria-must-eat

Serious Eats also did a piece on PR at https://slice.seriouseats.com/2012/08/boston-pizzeria-regina-the-original.html, and there is a YouTube review video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czKHgxtldac.

It also appears that is has not always been a bed of roses for PR. Through its private owners, Boston Restaurant Associates, they ended up in bankruptcy court in 2015. You can get some good insights into the PR business in this legal document:

https://www.mnat.com/assets/htmldocuments/FirstDayDeclaration_05-20-15_BostonRestaurantAssociatesInc.pdf.pdf

To the above, I would add that in my experience, pizza companies that use commissaries, even for small numbers of stores as is the case with PR, tend not to do extraordinary or complicated things with their doughs and they pay close attention to costs. Maybe PR is doing something unique with its dough but with the problems they have had they are perhaps trying to keep things as simple as possible at the operational level.

Good luck.

Peter

Wow thank you! This insight and information is really appreciated. Those links are amazing to have and I had no idea that the operations moved to Woburn. The natural yeast is definitely something that could be tough to replicate. Iíve been using a sourdough starter that seems to give me similar crumb results, but do you think the yeast and their aging would be a big factor in the wheat flavor on the outside of the crust? You all have far greater knowledge than I do, so that was one thing Iíve been meaning to ask. Going to try a slice again tonight. Iím beginning to think that pizzashark hit the nail on the head when he said that the cheese covered up many shortcomings. I donít call them shortcomings, but I think the high fat buttery smell and taste of the cheese is their best quality. As a final thought, I taste tested Papa Ginoís crust again vs Regina. Both cooked in similar ovens and both were cooked to an almond color. While I enjoy Papa Ginoís, I noted their cheese blend had none of the buttery smell and taste of Reginaís, and the outer part of the crust had none of the wheaty ďGrape NutsĒ taste to it. Regina must be using higher hydration Iím guessing, because the crumb is nowhere near dried out despite the my estimated 8-10 min bake time at 485į.

Taken from the article about fermenting the dough: ďFirst up is the dough, which is made fresh and then ages for 3-6 days before it ever sees the inside of an oven. Those 3-6 days give the yeast in the dough enough time to die, creating little black spots on the crust that some may mistake for burns or ash from the oven, but actually add their own unique flavor to the dough. Step two involves ďproofingĒ the dough, where a little heat is added to ensure that no bubbles form while the pizza is baking.Ē

Very interesting. Anybody have black spots happen from a cold ferment? Also, is the heat proofing they talk about just what Jimmy Johns does by proofing around 110į? Reginaís pizza usually has a lot of bubbles lol. This attached picture I took from the Boston location does show black specks on the crust that the other locations do not have. Also they use a ton of flour.  The satellites have no black specks, very little flour, and only blistering. The second and third pictures are from the Braintree location.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 14, 2018, 06:40:14 PM
Pod4477,

I have had a fair amount of experience with long cold fermented doughs, as long as a few weeks. And, in some cases, there were no black spots in the dough but in other cases there were black spots.

To show you an example where black spots appeared in one of my doughs, see the second photo in Reply 29 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg36081#msg36081. What I was striving to achieve in that case was a dough that could last many days, even up to two weeks or more. In order to achieve that result, I used a rather small amount of yeast (0.14%) and water temperature at 44.1 degrees F. The finished dough temperature was 65.2 degrees F, which was below the recommended range for finished dough temperature. Black specks started to appear after a few days, and remained there for the rest of the fermentation period, which was 12 days plus 4.5 hours. What is important to note is how I described the results, as follows:

The last two photos below show the finished pizza. It was first rate in all respects. The most interesting part of the pizza was the crust. It was chewy but not bread-like. In fact, the entire crust, including the rim, had a texture that was reminiscent of those I have made using natural preferments. There was a ďstretchĒ and springiness to the crumb, and it had tooth. The oven spring was surprisingly good, and, although not entirely evident from the photos, there were small blisters over the entire rim, along with a few bubbles. I attribute the bubbles and blisters to the late stage of fermentation. I also thought the crust color was very good, given the fact that I did not use any sugar in the dough and I did not use the broiler element to contribute to the crust color. I did not detect the same level of sweetness in the crust that I achieved in earlier experiments, but the crust was quite flavorful nonetheless, with a hint of sourness that was not objectionable in any way.

I quoted the above excerpt merely to show that long cold fermentations can yield some very nice qualities in the finished crust.

Later in the same thread, I discussed at least one other case of where I made a long cold fermented dough that had black specks. See, for example, the first photo of Reply 23 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg35370#msg35370. In that post, here is how I described the results:

The photos below show the dough ball just prior to shaping, and the finished pizza. The finished pizza exhibited reasonable oven spring and the crust had a few large bubbles and a profusion of very small bubbles at the rim. I had not expected the large bubbles inasmuch as the dough had not risen much during its entire time of fermentation. The texture of the crumb was soft and chewy and bore a resemblance to crusts that I have made before using natural preferments. The crust had normal coloration and, as with my more recent efforts, was noticeably sweet. This continues to amaze me since I added no sugar to the dough. After 10 days, I would have expected almost no crust coloration and low, almost undetectable residual sugar levels (on the palate). These characteristics, along with the normal byproducts of fermentation, helped contribute to a finished crust that I found to be very flavorful.

I should also mention that the appearance of black speck or spots is not uncommon, even for other types of cases than the ones discussed above. See, for example, the thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29548.msg296070#msg296070 and the links referenced in that thread.

In PR's case, it is not entirely clear how the black specks are created although they seem to be deemed important by PR. Maybe it is dead yeast due to a long cold fermentation of several days as PR has specifically mentioned but it could be something else along the lines discussed in the last thread cited above.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 14, 2018, 10:48:57 PM
Pod4477,

I have had a fair amount of experience with long cold fermented doughs, as long as a few weeks. And, in some cases, there were no black spots in the dough but in other cases there were black spots.

To show you an example where black spots appeared in one of my doughs, see the second photo in Reply 29 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg36081#msg36081. What I was striving to achieve in that case was a dough that could last many days, even up to two weeks or more. In order to achieve that result, I used a rather small amount of yeast (0.14%) and water temperature at 44.1 degrees F. The finished dough temperature was 65.2 degrees F, which was below the recommended range for finished dough temperature. Black specks started to appear after a few days, and remained there for the rest of the fermentation period, which was 12 days plus 4.5 hours. What is important to note is how I described the results, as follows:

The last two photos below show the finished pizza. It was first rate in all respects. The most interesting part of the pizza was the crust. It was chewy but not bread-like. In fact, the entire crust, including the rim, had a texture that was reminiscent of those I have made using natural preferments. There was a ďstretchĒ and springiness to the crumb, and it had tooth. The oven spring was surprisingly good, and, although not entirely evident from the photos, there were small blisters over the entire rim, along with a few bubbles. I attribute the bubbles and blisters to the late stage of fermentation. I also thought the crust color was very good, given the fact that I did not use any sugar in the dough and I did not use the broiler element to contribute to the crust color. I did not detect the same level of sweetness in the crust that I achieved in earlier experiments, but the crust was quite flavorful nonetheless, with a hint of sourness that was not objectionable in any way.

I quoted the above excerpt merely to show that long cold fermentations can yield some very nice qualities in the finished crust.

Later in the same thread, I discussed at least one other case of where I made a long cold fermented dough that had black specks. See, for example, the first photo of Reply 23 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg35370#msg35370. In that post, here is how I described the results:

The photos below show the dough ball just prior to shaping, and the finished pizza. The finished pizza exhibited reasonable oven spring and the crust had a few large bubbles and a profusion of very small bubbles at the rim. I had not expected the large bubbles inasmuch as the dough had not risen much during its entire time of fermentation. The texture of the crumb was soft and chewy and bore a resemblance to crusts that I have made before using natural preferments. The crust had normal coloration and, as with my more recent efforts, was noticeably sweet. This continues to amaze me since I added no sugar to the dough. After 10 days, I would have expected almost no crust coloration and low, almost undetectable residual sugar levels (on the palate). These characteristics, along with the normal byproducts of fermentation, helped contribute to a finished crust that I found to be very flavorful.

I should also mention that the appearance of black speck or spots is not uncommon, even for other types of cases than the ones discussed above. See, for example, the thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29548.msg296070#msg296070 and the links referenced in that thread.

In PR's case, it is not entirely clear how the black specks are created although they seem to be deemed important by PR. Maybe it is dead yeast due to a long cold fermentation of several days as PR has specifically mentioned but it could be something else along the lines discussed in the last thread cited above.

Peter

Your pizzas look amazing. For some reason I keep having to login on desktop mode on Safari for iPhone and then it switches to mobile automatically and logs me out. Interesting information and amazing with regards to the black spots. I enjoyed those threads. So long cold ferments seem to be key to Regina. Iím guessing if they add malt flour then the malt flavor from the Malliard reaction is enhanced by the ferment. I did notice that when cooked well done all of this malty flavor is lost and to me it ends up tasting bitter. I have some new pics from tonightís taste test. To me the crumb looks like sourdough. You can see the little bits of white spots or strands inside the greyish crumb in the last pic. What could that be from? Also, I know they use semolina on the peel, but what about in the dough?
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 15, 2018, 10:34:05 AM
Pod4477,

I amplified the photo you mentioned but I do not know what the white spots or areas are. If the dough uses a natural (wild) yeast, such as you suspect, perhaps the acid byproducts of fermentation have an effect on the dough that manifests itself as white spots upon baking the pizza.

I noticed that the rims of the PR pizzas that you showed in your posts, and also in the YouTube video I referenced, tend to be quite light. If that is so, then it is possible that there are not a lot of natural sugars developed during the process of fermentation, where damage starch is converted to natural sugars by the action of amylase enzymes, to contribute to crust coloration. That is a result that is often common when long fermentation times are used and most of the sugars in the dough have been used up, but also when natural yeast is used to ferment the dough. In my own case, when I experimented with using natural yeast many years ago (in 2004 and 2005) to make a NY style of pizza, I observed crusts that tended to be a bit lighter in color but also rims that were on the flat side. And the rims were not particularly open and airy. You can see examples in these posts:

Reply 151 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg11774#msg11774,

Reply 161 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg12367#msg12367,

Reply 165 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg12644#msg12644, and

Reply 175 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg12748#msg12748.

I cite the above examples merely to show some of the possible effects of using natural yeast leavening systems. Back in 2004-2005, I was an absolute beginner using natural leavening systems and I simply created recipes to experiment with to learn more about how natural leavens work. That's why the examples I gave above were so different.

It is also possible that PR is using the old dough method where a piece of dough from one day's production is used in the next day's production. That is a method that is quite common but its downside is that there is a practical limit as to how many generations of doughs can be made that way before the crusts take on unwanted flavors. One solution to that problem is to periodically make a fresh batch of dough and let it ferment for a while for later incorporation into a given day's production of dough. I call such a dough a "new old dough".

I notice that PR says that their dough recipe is a century old recipe. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the yeast form is also a century old yeast form. It was in the late 1800s that commercial fresh yeast was produced, and ADY came into existence during World War II, and IDY came into existence some time in the 1970s if I recall correctly. So, going back over a century, the yeast form used would have been a natural or wild form of yeast. I suspect that the century old recipe comprised only flour, water and salt, to which a natural form of yeast was added. And no oil and no sugar. I guess we will have to wait to learn exactly what PR is doing. For all we know, maybe they are using a special commercial additive that produces the flavor profile that you mentioned. But I would also note that the way the pizza is baked, in terms of the type of oven used, and the bake temperature and duration can also have an impact of the flavor of the finished crust, both good and bad, as the protein in the flour is denatured. As one or more of the articles mentioned, it appears that there is a wide range of crust colors that diners can request.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 15, 2018, 12:24:08 PM
Pod4477,

I amplified the photo you mentioned but I do not know what the white spots or areas are. If the dough uses a natural (wild) yeast, such as you suspect, perhaps the acid byproducts of fermentation have an effect on the dough that manifests itself as white spots upon baking the pizza.

I noticed that the rims of the PR pizzas that you showed in your posts, and also in the YouTube video I referenced, tend to be quite light. If that is so, then it is possible that there are not a lot of natural sugars developed during the process of fermentation, where damage starch is converted to natural sugars by the action of amylase enzymes, to contribute to crust coloration. That is a result that is often common when long fermentation times are used and most of the sugars in the dough have been used up, but also when natural yeast is used to ferment the dough. In my own case, when I experimented with using natural yeast many years ago (in 2004 and 2005) to make a NY style of pizza, I observed crusts that tended to be a bit lighter in color but also rims that were on the flat side. And the rims were not particularly open and airy. You can see examples in these posts:

Reply 151 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg11774#msg11774,

Reply 161 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg12367#msg12367,

Reply 165 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg12644#msg12644, and

Reply 175 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg12748#msg12748.

I cite the above examples merely to show some of the possible effects of using natural yeast leavening systems. Back in 2004-2005, I was an absolute beginner using natural leavening systems and I simply created recipes to experiment with to learn more about how natural leavens work. That's why the examples I gave above were so different.

It is also possible that PR is using the old dough method where a piece of dough from one day's production is used in the next day's production. That is a method that is quite common but its downside is that there is a practical limit as to how many generations of doughs can be made that way before the crusts take on unwanted flavors. One solution to that problem is to periodically make a fresh batch of dough and let it ferment for a while for later incorporation into a given day's production of dough. I call such a dough a "new old dough".

I notice that PR says that their dough recipe is a century old recipe. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the yeast form is also a century old yeast form. It was in the late 1800s that commercial fresh yeast was produced, and ADY came into existence during World War II, and IDY came into existence some time in the 1970s if I recall correctly. So, going back over a century, the yeast form used would have been a natural or wild form of yeast. I suspect that the century old recipe comprised only flour, water and salt, to which a natural form of yeast was added. And no oil and no sugar. I guess we will have to wait to learn exactly what PR is doing. For all we know, maybe they are using a special commercial additive that produces the flavor profile that you mentioned. But I would also note that the way the pizza is baked, in terms of the type of oven used, and the bake temperature and duration can also have an impact of the flavor of the finished crust, both good and bad, as the protein in the flour is denatured. As one or more of the articles mentioned, it appears that there is a wide range of crust colors that diners can request.

Peter
Thank you! You know a lot about this stuff, mich more than me so I really appreciate it from you and everyone here. Yes Iím thinking the white spots might be from the yeast they use. Your natural leavened pizza does resemble the crust im going for. I love experimenting with recipes as well and have made about 6 different ones this week. Iím currently using my sourdough starter to make some dough today. They lighter rim is definitely right and the oven is a big factor. Their pizza is usually very flat with very little rise or puffing of the outer crust. I had always wondered why. They ovens arenít that hot so im guessing they have more hydration so they donít dry out in the 8ish minute cook. I do wonder if malt is used to give the outer crust that hint of Grape Nuts I taste.

Pizzasharksí process is also interesting, especially because he talks about 30 minute kneading of just flour, water, yeast, and cottonseed oil, and then raised in the fridges for 3-4 days. I know that current day PR has them sitting in flour all day, Iím assuming after their pulled from the fridge. I noted when I was in Braintree that they pull them off a tray as flat discs, with no flour and dunk them in flour before opening them up on their knuckles in the air. I had always wondered why Boston had so much caked on flour and that seems to be the reason of their sitting in flour for hours (flattened into discs and covered with plastic wrap I noted when I was there.)

Iíve wondered how natural leavening dough compares to instant yeast or even cake yeast. Iím going to assume my sourdough starter will not show a drastic rise during bulk ferment. I used the table posted somewhere else on these forums, and the percentage of starter to flour being 20% required about 4 hours bulk ferment. Iíll have to experiment with this time though.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 15, 2018, 02:41:03 PM
Pod4477,

I suspect that PR is using a standard flour that is already malted. Millers have a great deal of experience in adjusting the barley malt levels in flours to meet bakers' requirements on a consistent basis, no matter the quality of the wheat crops. However, that is not to stop someone from adding more barley malt. And some millers will do it on a contract basis, although there may be volume requirements for them to do that. For years, I read materials written by Tom Lehmann that discouraged end users from adding more barely malt (diastatic malt) to their flours because of the likelihood that the finished dough could become overly wet and sticky and difficult to work with.

But then Tony Gemignani came along and wrote a book where he called for the addition of diastatic malt powder to the base flours used in many of his dough recipes. However, the malt products were low diastatic malt powders (LDMP) with Lintner degrees numbers far lower than what millers use in producing malted flours. So, if users stuck to the percentages of the LDMPs that Tony called for, they would get acceptable results with their doughs. FYI, the LDMP products comprise barley malt (diastatic malt), some basic white flour and a small amount of sugar such as dextrose. So the product is basically a diluted high-powered diastatic malt. Some members have reported good results with the added diastatic malt, both in terms of taste and crust color, and maybe even texture, but the amounts of the LDMPs must be correctly chosen.

After my last post, I though some more about whether PR might be using a sourdough of some sort. I am assuming that the 3-6 day number that was cited in one of the articles means 3-6 days of cold fermentation. Assuming that is so, I believe that it would take a lot of sourdough to last that long at cold fermentation temperatures. My original guess was about 30% of the total formula flour but, upon rethinking the matter, I would guess that something along the lines of 20-25% might be a better starting point, and maybe even a bit less. As support for my thesis, you might take a look at these posts, and especially the parts that cite or quote Prof. Raymond Calvel or that discuss residual sugar levels and related matters:

Reply 60 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11700.msg108853;topicseen#msg108853,

Reply 95 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11700.msg110264#msg110264, and

Reply 136 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5851.msg86732#msg86732.

The sourdough range mentioned above compares with much lesser amounts when dough using sourdough is fermented at room temperature. The amounts can be in the single digit range. And, even then, you are not going to be able to use 3-6 days of room temperature fermentation. So, I would rule out any room temperature fermentation, or even a fixed controlled temperature approaching room temperatures, of the PR dough.

Of course, I could still be wrong. PR might still be using 3-6 days of cold fermentation but doing something else on the yeast front that is "special and natural".

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 15, 2018, 11:01:57 PM
Amazing info. You sure know a lot; thank you! I tried boiling my Diastatic Malted Barley Flour from Breadtopia
in with my water, and used 24% starter, small amount of instant yeast, and a small amount semolina flour. The results were very similar, but I didnít refrigerate the dough. I used a food processor and bulk ferment at room temp for a little over an hour. The results were very close to Regina. My dough was a bit dryer today and cooked at a lower temp due to multiple pizzas being cooked, but the crumb was still moist and a bit of a Grape Nutty flavor on the crust. Still needs more of that possible barley taste though. I had a dough from sourdough starter that was in the fridge for 2 days and went quite sour with the black dots in the dough. The 16Ē pizza was the same day dough and the 12Ē or so one was the fridge fermented one. Still more work to be done though. I put some butter on the 16Ē one and it definitely helped with butterfat. All the crust pics are from the 16Ē same day dough. I did notice the white specks in my crumb as well. Cold fermented sourdough must have different rules that commercial yeast doughs right? After about 5 days in the fridge my dough canít even be stretched without ripping, which I can only assume is from the sourdough cultures breaking down the flour.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 16, 2018, 03:00:26 PM
Pod4477,

I started my "career" in pizza making by studying the chemistry and physics and math of pizza making and then just going into my kitchen and making pizzas. And, as part of my learning process, one of the things that I tried to do was to frame the entire subject of pizza making by doing such things as making a one-hour pizza at one end of the spectrum and, at the other end of the spectrum, making a pizza using a dough that was cold fermented for 23 days. Everything else would pretty much fit in between those two methods and if I understood both of those methods the stuff in between would be easier to learn and master. But in general, you want to learn about yeast quantities, times and temperatures. By temperatures, I mean all of the temperatures, including water temperature, finished dough temperature, fermentation temperature and temper temperatures. And I have always been project oriented, with each pizza defining what I would do in the next experiment. I was never a random pizza maker. Learning was more often than not more important than the pizzas themselves.

If you are able to plan your experiments in a way as to learn from them, you should be able to master pizza making in short order. But you should ask yourself why you do the things you do. And the answer can be much different for you as a home pizza maker that what one would do in a commissary such as PR uses. More specifically, in a commissary setting, there has to be much greater control of the dough making and management processes since the product delivered to its stores has to be the same quality, each and every day and at each store. To cite an example, Papa John's strives to keep the temperature of its dough balls between 33 degrees F and 38 degrees F. And that is at all times, including using refrigerated trucks to make deliveries (usually twice a week) from its commissaries to its stores. And, in the stores, the walk-in coolers are supposed to be below freezing temperature. In fact, if the temperature drops below 32 degrees F, someone in the store is supposed to call its assigned commissary for instructions. I suspect that PR deals with similar issues if its dough balls are cold fermented. Most commissaries tend not to do complicated or fancy things in making its doughs. So, using a sourdough based method to make pizza dough in a commissary, if that is what PR does, cannot be a simple process, and even moreso if the fermentation window is 3-6 days. That is not to say that it is not possible to make a commissary-based dough that uses sourdough and is cold fermented for several days, but it is not easy to do in my opinion. In this context, and to demonstrate how difficult it is to do that, you might want to read this thread:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49798.msg500827#msg500827

I also noticed that you used commercial yeast (IDY) as well as soudough for one of your pizza doughs. I don't know if that is something that PR would do even though it is a common approach among bakers. However, one has to be careful as not to add too much commercial yeast. Beyond what has been covered above, you can read what the experts say and do in that regard in this post:

Reply 20 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31307.msg311611;topicseen#msg311611.

You also indicated that you boiled the diastatic malted barley flour. I have never heard of anyone doing such a thing inasmuch as enzymes are temperature sensitive and might be neutered and rendered unusable (beyond perhaps some flavor component) by boiling them.

As for your pizza, I think you did a good job considering that it was a same day dough that you used. So, I look forward to the next pizzas you make in your quest to replicate the PR pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 16, 2018, 10:52:42 PM
Pod4477,

I started my "career" in pizza making by studying the chemistry and physics and math of pizza making and then just going into my kitchen and making pizzas. And, as part of my learning process, one of the things that I tried to do was to frame the entire subject of pizza making by doing such things as making a one-hour pizza at one end of the spectrum and, at the other end of the spectrum, making a pizza using a dough that was cold fermented for 23 days. Everything else would pretty much fit in between those two methods and if I understood both of those methods the stuff in between would be easier to learn and master. But in general, you want to learn about yeast quantities, times and temperatures. By temperatures, I mean all of the temperatures, including water temperature, finished dough temperature, fermentation temperature and temper temperatures. And I have always been project oriented, with each pizza defining what I would do in the next experiment. I was never a random pizza maker. Learning was more often than not more important than the pizzas themselves.

If you are able to plan your experiments in a way as to learn from them, you should be able to master pizza making in short order. But you should ask yourself why you do the things you do. And the answer can be much different for you as a home pizza maker that what one would do in a commissary such as PR uses. More specifically, in a commissary setting, there has to be much greater control of the dough making and management processes since the product delivered to its stores has to be the same quality, each and every day and at each store. To cite an example, Papa John's strives to keep the temperature of its dough balls between 33 degrees F and 38 degrees F. And that is at all times, including using refrigerated trucks to make deliveries (usually twice a week) from its commissaries to its stores. And, in the stores, the walk-in coolers are supposed to be below freezing temperature. In fact, if the temperature drops below 32 degrees F, someone in the store is supposed to call its assigned commissary for instructions. I suspect that PR deals with similar issues if its dough balls are cold fermented. Most commissaries tend not to do complicated or fancy things in making its doughs. So, using a sourdough based method to make pizza dough in a commissary, if that is what PR does, cannot be a simple process, and even moreso if the fermentation window is 3-6 days. That is not to say that it is not possible to make a commissary-based dough that uses sourdough and is cold fermented for several days, but it is not easy to do in my opinion. In this context, and to demonstrate how difficult it is to do that, you might want to read this thread:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49798.msg500827#msg500827

I also noticed that you used commercial yeast (IDY) as well as soudough for one of your pizza doughs. I don't know if that is something that PR would do even though it is a common approach among bakers. However, one has to be careful as not to add too much commercial yeast. Beyond what has been covered above, you can read what the experts say and do in that regard in this post:

Reply 20 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31307.msg311611;topicseen#msg311611.

You also indicated that you boiled the diastatic malted barley flour. I have never heard of anyone doing such a thing inasmuch as enzymes are temperature sensitive and might be neutered and rendered unusable (beyond perhaps some flavor component) by boiling them.

As for your pizza, I think you did a good job considering that it was a same day dough that you used. So, I look forward to the next pizzas you make in your quest to replicate the PR pizzas.

Peter

I never knew how much work was involved with commissaries. It definitely is important though to make sure the dough is perfect everyday. Dough temp is something Iíll have to keep checking. I was intrigued learning about the process from you and even more so about your jouney. 23 day ferment is amazing. Thatís such a good way to learn; both ends of the spectrum. I was doing a lot of cake yeast pizza, then sourdough pizza, and then switched to active dry/instant yeast. Now Iím going back to sourdough ones. I figured Iíd try some commercial yeast in there but a small amount I believe. Still experimenting. The last pizza was a tweaked version of King Arthurís Rustic Sourdough Loaf.

Someone on here I believe said you can boil the Diastatic Malt Powder to make it non-diastatic. I figured since my flour is already malted Iíd have to use non-diastatic malt if I was going to experiment and add a lot. Itís close to what Iím going for. Still needs a bit more malty flavor or wheat flavor and Iíd be happy. Got a slight sour taste in the crumb and it was very flavorful. Probably could knead it more and let it ferment longer but wanted to eat earlier lol. Thank you! I added butter for added butter fat and used empire cheese with Trader Joeís Whole Tomatoes (added Romano and Salt). I feel the cheese still needs more aging or a different brand because it still tastes different than Reginaís. I appreciate the latest link and all your links and info. I will be reading them throughly again and perfecting. I was surprised how dry my dough was and how it didnít get too dry in a lower temp fire in my oven. Iíll be making more this week. Iím guessing if my sourdough pizza dough was overly sour in two days fridge ferment, there may have been too much starter used? I believe I did use more than normal and never have that problem.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 18, 2018, 04:45:02 AM
Also noticed tonight that it may be better to compare the crust flavor to something like bran flakes or total cereal. Malted Barley may be the taste Iím getting, but I think the flavor Iím after is not as sweet. I saw wheat bran as an ingredient in those along with Whole Wheat Flour.  There has to be something added that other chains and pizza shops around here arenít using because I can taste it immediately. Itís not desernable in the crumb. The ďwheat cerealĒ flavor comes from the browning of the crust only I believe. Iíll have to try every flour I can and do some blending.

Edit:noticed a few things today.

I think they may indeed be using a sourdough flavoring or something less time consuming than a starter for sure. Definitely looks similiar to sourdough though. I got some more slices tonight and noted a few things.
1. The Crumb seem to have definitely more oil in it than other bread Iíve tried.
2. The Crumb barely has any sourness and a very faint hint of yeast taste.
3.  Most workers there press all the air out of the entire dough. Normally Iíve seen people push down air out of the middle and make the cornicone, but they push the air out of the entire dough similar to a chain pizza place.
4. The outer crispy part of the crust tastes like Grape Nuts but not as sweet. They get it very crispy in Braintree.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 18, 2018, 03:48:39 PM
Just wanted to follow up with new observations and questions for Pizzashark. Iíve noted from eating at Pizzeria Regina that their cheese must have a very high butterfat content, because itís almost all you smell and the smell hits you right away. Itís unlike any other pizza cheese Iíve smelled. Hopefully itís still Empire and aged. Second, the crumb in the crust does seem exactly how you described it, but as Serious Eats described it, the outside part of the crust that browns has a wheaty, almost bran flakes or total cereal taste. Was it like that in Boston when you worked there? Most of my tests have been from satellite locations and I know they use more flour on their pies at the Original one. Their pizzas look vastly different and Iím guessing itís because the satellites locations are cooking at 485į. First picture is from the Original location, and second and third oneís are from Braintree.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 21, 2018, 10:24:15 AM
Pod4477,

As you know, scottr (Scott) posted about several aspects of the PR dough based on what he learned about that dough. I have copied below his post at Reply 15 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54123.msg544512#msg544512 since that post is relevant to the discussion in this thread:

Hey guys, being an operator in Boston I have had a lot of PR info passed to me from ex employees and local reps.    It has all been really consistent info so I think it is correct.   From what I know they only use one flour, no blending.   Its a bleached bromated white flour that is VERY common in pizzerias.   There is no sourdough used, just fresh yeast.   The dough is cold fermented for a few days before use. All stores get the same dough from the same commissary (including the original north end location). 

The cheese is not frozen and it is grated in house.   It is whole milk mozzarella blended with a hard grating cheese... that's it... no provolone cheddar etc.   

Try asking them to buy a dough ball and some cheese.   I think they will sell it to you.   Then you can bake up some of your own pizzas and see how much of the allure is the oven!


I wonder why PR makes so much about its special natural yeast if it is fresh yeast. I know that there are special forms of ADY and IDY and there are things like cream yeast for big users but I don't recall reading anything about special forms of fresh yeast. These days yeast can be organic and non-GMO but those forms have only been around for a couple of years or so. And when I went to the websites of Lallemand and Lesaffre/Red Star and when I read the comprehensive article on yeast at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8912.msg77255#msg77255, I did not see anything that was "special" about fresh yeast. Maybe it is something out of the brewing field that they are using and that was discussed in the PR thread that I reference earlier in this thread.

As for the likelihood of being able to purchase dough from one of the PR locations, years ago a poster at Chowhound dismissed that possibility:

https://www.chowhound.com/post/pizzeria-regina-pizza-recipe-146089

Maybe things have changed and it may be possible to purchase some dough from one of the PR locations.

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 21, 2018, 01:13:38 PM
Pod4477,

As you know, scottr (Scott) posted about several aspects of the PR dough based on what he learned about that dough. I have copied below his post at Reply 15 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54123.msg544512#msg544512 since that post is relevant to the discussion in this thread:

Hey guys, being an operator in Boston I have had a lot of PR info passed to me from ex employees and local reps.    It has all been really consistent info so I think it is correct.   From what I know they only use one flour, no blending.   Its a bleached bromated white flour that is VERY common in pizzerias.   There is no sourdough used, just fresh yeast.   The dough is cold fermented for a few days before use. All stores get the same dough from the same commissary (including the original north end location). 

The cheese is not frozen and it is grated in house.   It is whole milk mozzarella blended with a hard grating cheese... that's it... no provolone cheddar etc.   

Try asking them to buy a dough ball and some cheese.   I think they will sell it to you.   Then you can bake up some of your own pizzas and see how much of the allure is the oven!


I wonder why PR makes so much about its special natural yeast if it is fresh yeast. I know that there are special forms of ADY and IDY and there are things like cream yeast for big users but I don't recall reading anything about special forms of fresh yeast. These days yeast can be organic and non-GMO but those forms have only been around for a couple of years or so. And when I went to the websites of Lallemand and Lesaffre/Red Star and when I read the comprehensive article on yeast at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8912.msg77255#msg77255, I did not see anything that was "special" about fresh yeast. Maybe it is something out of the brewing field that they are using and that was discussed in the PR thread that I reference earlier in this thread.

As for the likelihood of being able to purchase dough from one of the PR locations, years ago a poster at Chowhound dismissed that possibility:

https://www.chowhound.com/post/pizzeria-regina-pizza-recipe-146089

Maybe things have changed and it may be possible to purchase some dough from one of the PR locations.

Peter

Thank you for copying that. Awesome info. I was thinking the same thing about the yeast. To me itís not a huge factor or vastly different than other doughs. I do wonder if they use sugar, and I do taste the cottonseed oil (I can just taste oil in general). What do you think would be a sign of them using sugar?  The All Trumps definitely tastes very close to their flour. What makes All Trumps smell and taste so much better than other brands such as King Arthur? I wonder if All Trumps was the flour Scott alluded to, instead of ADM previously discussed.  The cold ferment makes sense for the reduced oven spring and dead yeast.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 21, 2018, 02:00:54 PM
Thank you for copying that. Awesome info. I was thinking the same thing about the yeast. To me itís not a huge factor or vastly different than other doughs. I do wonder if they use sugar, and I do taste the cottonseed oil (I can just taste oil in general). What do you think would be a sign of them using sugar?  The All Trumps definitely tastes very close to their flour. What makes All Trumps smell and taste so much better than other brands such as King Arthur? I wonder if All Trumps was the flour Scott alluded to, instead of ADM previously discussed.  The cold ferment makes sense for the reduced oven spring and dead yeast.
Pod4477,

According to Tom Lehmann, at Reply 3 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45797.msg459110;topicseen#msg459110, you need to get to around 4% sugar to be able to detect its presence in the finished crust. However, when I made Papa John's clone doughs using 4-5+% sugar, some members who made the clones could tell from the crust that sugar was present whereas others did not even notice the sweetness. I have long contended that sweetness is a tricky thing. I recalled that I wrote in some detail on my view on this matter and found it by doing a forum search. This is what I said:

I think it is important to keep in mind that the sense of sweetness is a tricky thing to analyze. No two people have the exact same sense of sweetness, and sweetness on the palate changes all the time and can also be affected by the sense of smell (the olfactory component), whether one has allergies or a cold, etc., and also what foods and drinks and combinations of those one might consume at any given meal. There can also be genetic influences on taste senses. But of all of the traditional taste senses--such as sweet, sour, salty, bitter, umami-- sugar is the predominant and preferred one, as even any baby who can't speak will let you know, and it is the last taste sensor to degrade with age (or so a neighbor doctor friend so informed me a few weeks ago). That is true in my case and it sometimes drives me crazy because I have a palate that detects even the slightest amount of sugar and I don't like it when the sugar is in places that I don't think it is needed or belongs. I have also observed that some people have what I would call a "sweetness memory" in that they say that they can recall degrees of sweetness of things that they have eaten even years ago, not just in the recent past. The technical side of me has a hard time accepting that but no doubt there are studies somewhere that debunk what I think.

It also happens that sugar, at about 1-2%, is often added to doughs that are to cold ferment for more than about two days. The sugar is added to be sure that the yeast is adequately fed and does not run out of food during the course of the long fermentation. You also want enough residual sugar after the yeast has been fed to contribute to crust coloration. Having read that the PR cold ferments its dough from about 3-6 days, and seeing that its crusts tend to be on the light side from a color standpoint, leads me to believe that they are not using any sugar or only a small amount. It is perhaps important to also keep in mind that some of the 3-6 days mentioned above can be in the PR restaurants, not just in the PR commissary. That is the sort of thing I discovered when I was making my Papa John's clones. The PJ doughs from PJ's commissaries were (and still are) delivered to their stores twice a week. The workers at the stores are instructed not to use the dough for the first three days, because of insufficient fermentation. But after three days, the dough can be used up to day seven. After that, the dough had to be discarded (although I have read of cases of the dough being used at some PJ stores up to nine days).

As for the difference between the All Trumps and the King Arthur flours, you would have to try the KA Sir Lancelot flour, which is also a high gluten flour with a protein content of around 14%, to have a proper comparison. The doughs may still have differences because the All Trumps is usally both bleached and bromated whereas the KA Sir Lancelot is unbleached and unbromated. You can see some of the differences in these documents:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=50111000,

https://web.archive.org/web/20051027032834/http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/4a1eb4311b0be08b2b590b39ac3f2c77/download/Primary%20sell%20sheet.pdf, and

https://web.archive.org/web/20060311133549/http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/528fa553a218e1e5566108ef6e4c55d9/miscdocs/Nutritional%20Analysis.pdf

Peter




Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 21, 2018, 02:32:48 PM
Pod4477,

According to Tom Lehmann, at Reply 3 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45797.msg459110;topicseen#msg459110, you need to get to around 4% sugar to be able to detect its presence in the finished crust. However, when I made Papa John's clone doughs using 4-5+% sugar, some members who made the clones could tell from the crust that sugar was present whereas others did not even notice the sweetness. I have long contended that sweetness is a tricky thing. I recalled that I wrote in some detail on my view on this matter and found it by doing a forum search. This is what I said:

I think it is important to keep in mind that the sense of sweetness is a tricky thing to analyze. No two people have the exact same sense of sweetness, and sweetness on the palate changes all the time and can also be affected by the sense of smell (the olfactory component), whether one has allergies or a cold, etc., and also what foods and drinks and combinations of those one might consume at any given meal. There can also be genetic influences on taste senses. But of all of the traditional taste senses--such as sweet, sour, salty, bitter, umami-- sugar is the predominant and preferred one, as even any baby who can't speak will let you know, and it is the last taste sensor to degrade with age (or so a neighbor doctor friend so informed me a few weeks ago). That is true in my case and it sometimes drives me crazy because I have a palate that detects even the slightest amount of sugar and I don't like it when the sugar is in places that I don't think it is needed or belongs. I have also observed that some people have what I would call a "sweetness memory" in that they say that they can recall degrees of sweetness of things that they have eaten even years ago, not just in the recent past. The technical side of me has a hard time accepting that but no doubt there are studies somewhere that debunk what I think.

It also happens that sugar, at about 1-2%, is often added to doughs that are to cold ferment for more than about two days. The sugar is added to be sure that the yeast is adequately fed and does not run out of food during the course of the long fermentation. You also want enough residual sugar after the yeast has been fed to contribute to crust coloration. Having read that the PR cold ferments its dough from about 3-6 days, and seeing that its crusts tend to be on the light side from a color standpoint, leads me to believe that they are not using any sugar or only a small amount. It perhaps important to also keep in mind that some of the 3-6 days mentioned above can be in the PR restaurants, not just in the PR commissary. That is the sort of thing I discovered when I was making my Papa John's clones. The PJ doughs from PJ's commissaries were (and still are) delivered to their stores twice a week. The workers at the stores are instructed not to use the dough for the first three days, because of insufficient fermentation. But after three days, the dough can be used up to day seven. After that, the dough had to be discarded (although I have read of cases of the dough being used at some PJ stores up to nine days).

As for the difference between the All Trumps and the King Arthur flours, you would have to try the KA Sir Lancelot flour, which is also a high gluten flour with a protein content of around 14%, to have a proper comparison. The doughs may still have differences because the All Trumps is usally both bleached and bromated whereas the KA Sir Lancelot is unbleached and unbromated. You can see some of the differences in these documents:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=50111000,

https://web.archive.org/web/20051027032834/http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/4a1eb4311b0be08b2b590b39ac3f2c77/download/Primary%20sell%20sheet.pdf, and

https://web.archive.org/web/20060311133549/http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/528fa553a218e1e5566108ef6e4c55d9/miscdocs/Nutritional%20Analysis.pdf

Peter

I didnít know that about sugar. Amazing stuff. Reminds me of all the intermittent fasting info about sugar and incilin. I hadnít noticed some places having sugar in their sauce, but these days I do. Iíve experimented with sugar alongside sourdough, but my main dough usually has no sugar. I donít see sugar being mentioned on PR info on this thread and that makes sense, since they mention the yeast dying in the cold ferment. I wonder how many days it really does cold ferment in the restaurant as you mentioned. I had a 5 day limit on my sourdough dough. Iím guessing this was due to the 20% sourdough used? Perhaps then Iíll have to lower my amounts of either sourdough starter or Saf Instant yeast. I may start using only Saf Instant for testing since Scott mentioned only normal yeast. What do you think would be a good percentage of Saf Instant Yeast for a 3-4 day cold ferment that would lend very little to none yeast taste as Iíve sampled from PR?
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 21, 2018, 03:20:53 PM
I didnít know that about sugar. Amazing stuff. Reminds me of all the intermittent fasting info about sugar and incilin. I hadnít noticed some places having sugar in their sauce, but these days I do. Iíve experimented with sugar alongside sourdough, but my main dough usually has no sugar. I donít see sugar being mentioned on PR info on this thread and that makes sense, since they mention the yeast dying in the cold ferment. I wonder how many days it really does cold ferment in the restaurant as you mentioned. I had a 5 day limit on my sourdough dough. Iím guessing this was due to the 20% sourdough used? Perhaps then Iíll have to lower my amounts of either sourdough starter or Saf Instant yeast. I may start using only Saf Instant for testing since Scott mentioned only normal yeast. What do you think would be a good percentage of Saf Instant Yeast for a 3-4 day cold ferment that would lend very little to none yeast taste as Iíve sampled from PR?
Pod4477,

Scott mentioned fresh yeast. And he may be correct. But if we assume that there is nothing special about fresh yeast, that still begs the question of how PR can say at its website that they use "special natural yeast ". If that special natural yeast is not fresh yeast, then what is it? Or is PR engaging in deceptive advertising and committing a hoax on the public? I would think that they would have been exposed for any such deception given the many years that PR has been making pizza and using the above claim. What I would propose as a possible answer is that PR may well be using fresh yeast, but not alone. They may also be using something like a beer yeast. Over the years, we have had members discuss the use of beer yeasts in pizza making. See, for example:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10661.msg94735#msg94735,

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7151.msg61611#msg61611,

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=28902.msg290719#msg290719,

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14709.msg146254#msg146254,

Reply 16 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46672.msg468459#msg468459, and

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11452.msg104537#msg104537

What do you think? And do you think that a beer yeast would qualify as a "special natural yeast"?

With respect to the amount of IDY to use for a 3-4 day cold ferment, I suggest that you plug in your numbers, including the fermentation temperature and the desired number of days of cold fermentation, into Craig's handy chart at Reply 188 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26831.msg349349.html#msg349349 (if you click on the chart, it will get much bigger)

Peter

 
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 21, 2018, 04:55:25 PM
Pod4477,

Scott mentioned fresh yeast. And he may be correct. But if we assume that there is nothing special about fresh yeast, that still begs the question of how PR can say at its website that they use "special natural yeast ". If that special natural yeast is not fresh yeast, then what is it? Or is PR engaging in deceptive advertising and committing a hoax on the public? I would think that they would have been exposed for any such deception given the many years that PR has been making pizza and using the above claim. What I would propose as a possible answer is that PR may well be using fresh yeast, but not alone. They may also be using something like a beer yeast. Over the years, we have had members discuss the use of beer yeasts in pizza making. See, for example:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10661.msg94735#msg94735,

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7151.msg61611#msg61611,

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=28902.msg290719#msg290719,

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14709.msg146254#msg146254,

Reply 16 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46672.msg468459#msg468459, and

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11452.msg104537#msg104537

What do you think? And do you think that a beer yeast would qualify as a "special natural yeast"?

With respect to the amount of IDY to use for a 3-4 day cold ferment, I suggest that you plug in your numbers, including the fermentation temperature and the desired number of days of cold fermentation, into Craig's handy chart at Reply 188 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26831.msg349349.html#msg349349 (if you click on the chart, it will get much bigger)

Peter

Whoops my bad; for some reason I was thinking it said ADY or Instant but I was wrong. Yup beer yeast makes sense especially since the inside info was AB yeast.  If they do use beer yeasts do you think it would be dry or liquid? I tried some different dry yeasts and with small amounts I didnít notice a considerable difference, but Iím still learning. I also wonder if PR is using a similar sourdough flavor as was mentioned on these forums before. Although I donít really taste it, and only once did it taste a bit sour, so Iím not sure. 

Thank you for the chart! That chart is amazing and I lost track of where that was before. Clicking it is a good tip! I do wonder what ďspecial natural yeastĒ means but I could see them using a brewers yeast. The home brew place near me has a ton of them Iíve been sampling, along with all different wort malts. I do think the beer yeasts are much more pleasant smelling. Iím not a big fan of IDY and always have to use small amounts. I find fresh to be a bit better but have overdone that before too. Sourdough and beer yeasts are probably the only two yeasts I havenít messed up.

If a same day or 1 day cold ferment dough are very sour from using a sourdough starter, itís probably from either too much used, or the temp of the dough being too hot right? It seemed to happen to me twice. Once was a same day dough that was around 90į after mixing and one was from a one day cold ferment with an after mixing temp probably around 80į. Once I used a mix of less starter and under 90į I have had good results, but Iím just wondering. These were done in the food processor for tests so thatís why they got so hot. Guessing the heat exacerbated the fermentation, mixed with using more than 20% starter.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 21, 2018, 05:40:36 PM
Whoops my bad; for some reason I was thinking it said ADY or Instant but I was wrong. Yup beer yeast makes sense especially since the inside info was AB yeast.  If they do use beer yeasts do you think it would be dry or liquid? I tried some different dry yeasts and with small amounts I didnít notice a considerable difference, but Iím still learning. I also wonder if PR is using a similar sourdough flavor as was mentioned on these forums before. Although I donít really taste it, and only once did it taste a bit sour, so Iím not sure. 

Thank you for the chart! That chart is amazing and I lost track of where that was before. Clicking it is a good tip! I do wonder what ďspecial natural yeastĒ means but I could see them using a brewers yeast. The home brew place near me has a ton of them Iíve been sampling, along with all different wort malts. I do think the beer yeasts are much more pleasant smelling. Iím not a big fan of IDY and always have to use small amounts. I find fresh to be a bit better but have overdone that before too. Sourdough and beer yeasts are probably the only two yeasts I havenít messed up.

If a same day or 1 day cold ferment dough are very sour from using a sourdough starter, itís probably from either too much used, or the temp of the dough being too hot right? It seemed to happen to me twice. Once was a same day dough that was around 90į after mixing and one was from a one day cold ferment with an after mixing temp probably around 80į. Once I used a mix of less starter and under 90į I have had good results, but Iím just wondering. These were done in the food processor for tests so thatís why they got so hot. Guessing the heat exacerbated the fermentation, mixed with using more than 20% starter.
Pod4477,

The only reason I mentioned beer yeast was because of the post at Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10382.msg91642#msg91642. And when I did a search to see what kinds of beer yeast products were available, I was overwhelmed by the number of such products. I then limited my search to possible suppliers of beer yeast in the Boston area. As it so happened, that search turned up a place called Beer & Wine Hobby that is in Woburn, where the PR commissary is located. That doesn't mean that they are a supplier to PM but who knows?

You can see the Beer & Wine Hobby dry beer yeast offerings at https://www.beer-wine.com/beer-ingredients-cider/yeast/dry-yeast, and their liquid yeast offerings at https://www.beer-wine.com/beer-ingredients-cider/yeast/liquid-yeast. But as between the two forms of beer yeast, I have no idea whether dry or liquid is better. However, maybe a phone call to ask what products might be used to make pizza dough is the way to proceed. If PR is using a beer yeast, it is even possible that Beer & Wine Hobby may know what product PR is using.

You are correct about problems you can experience using sourdough starters if the temperatures and amounts are not quite right. In case you are interested, Craig also created a sourdough starter quantity predictive model that you can examine at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.msg229864#msg229864.

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 22, 2018, 01:46:52 AM
Pod4477,

The only reason I mentioned beer yeast was because of the post at Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10382.msg91642#msg91642. And when I did a search to see what kinds of beer yeast products were available, I was overwhelmed by the number of such products. I then limited my search to possible suppliers of beer yeast in the Boston area. As it so happened, that search turned up a place called Beer & Wine Hobby that is in Woburn, where the PR commissary is located. That doesn't mean that they are a supplier to PM but who knows?

You can see the Beer & Wine Hobby dry beer yeast offerings at https://www.beer-wine.com/beer-ingredients-cider/yeast/dry-yeast, and their liquid yeast offerings at https://www.beer-wine.com/beer-ingredients-cider/yeast/liquid-yeast. But as between the two forms of beer yeast, I have no idea whether dry or liquid is better. However, maybe a phone call to ask what products might be used to make pizza dough is the way to proceed. If PR is using a beer yeast, it is even possible that Beer & Wine Hobby may know what product PR is using.

You are correct about problems you can experience using sourdough starters if the temperatures and amounts are not quite right. In case you are interested, Craig also created a sourdough starter quantity predictive model that you can examine at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.msg229864#msg229864.

Peter

Awesome work! Iíll be giving them a call for sure. Interesting that PR has been known to use AB brewers yeast, according to that note. I bought about 4 different dry yeasts a month back, including the ones on their website, but was thinking about trying some liquid ones. Thank you Iíll have to check out that model as well! Do you think the beer yeast would be better than ADY or Saf Instant? The German yeast worked very well but Iím still learning about yeast. The employee there did say that there were certain ones that he preferred; Iím assuming since there are different flavor profiles for each yeast in beer, maybe the same can be true when baking them? 

Also, I wonder if itís an ADM variety their using or GM All Trumps. Iím guessing both are similar taste wise. Are some of the employees trying to eliminate a puffy cornicione by pushing the gasses out of the entire dough ball, all the way to the edge with their fingertips? I assume many places do this and I kind of like the look of it. Reminds me of a rolling pin dough but not as extreme.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 22, 2018, 10:23:59 AM
Awesome work! Iíll be giving them a call for sure. Interesting that PR has been known to use AB brewers yeast, according to that note. I bought about 4 different dry yeasts a month back, including the ones on their website, but was thinking about trying some liquid ones. Thank you Iíll have to check out that model as well! Do you think the beer yeast would be better than ADY or Saf Instant? The German yeast worked very well but Iím still learning about yeast. The employee there did say that there were certain ones that he preferred; Iím assuming since there are different flavor profiles for each yeast in beer, maybe the same can be true when baking them? 

Also, I wonder if itís an ADM variety their using or GM All Trumps. Iím guessing both are similar taste wise. Are some of the employees trying to eliminate a puffy cornicione by pushing the gasses out of the entire dough ball, all the way to the edge with their fingertips? I assume many places do this and I kind of like the look of it. Reminds me of a rolling pin dough but not as extreme.
Pod447,

I have never tried using beer yeasts for dough so I cannot say whether they are better than ADY, IDY or fresh yeast. However, many of the members whose posts I cited seemed to be happy with the results achieved using beer yeasts. Scott (scottr) said that PR was using fresh yeast. It may well be that PR uses such a yeast but together with a beer yeast, much like belt and suspenders, to be certain that the dough ferments properly and consistently. Such use would still allow PR to state at its website that they use a special natural yeast. From what I have read, it appears that lager type beer yeasts are better to use at lower temperatures.

As for the flour used by PR, all that we know is that in Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10382.msg91642#msg91642, ADM high-gluten flour was mentioned. But that was back in 2010. And Scott mentioned that the flour was a bleached and bromated white flour. There are many brands of high gluten flours that are bleached and bromated. All Trumps is just one such brand.

I think it is important to keep a couple of things in mind. First, companies do not remain static. With time, they change things. So, in PR's case, what they do today at its commissary may well be different than what they did back in 2010. Second, you also have to be careful with what employees say about the products they are making. They often make mistakes or say things that are misleading or even wrong. And it may be entirely innocent. Some might even guess at an answer so as not to look dumb. And some will lie, especially if they think you are trying to get at their secrets. In my time on the forum, I have experienced all of these things. This forces you to "trust but verify". That isn't always easy.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 22, 2018, 11:56:50 AM
Pod447,

I have never tried using beer yeasts for dough so I cannot say whether they are better than ADY, IDY or fresh yeast. However, many of the members whose posts I cited seemed to be happy with the results achieved using beer yeasts. Scott (scottr) said that PR was using fresh yeast. It may well be that PR uses such a yeast but together with a beer yeast, much like belt and suspenders, to be certain that the dough ferments properly and consistently. Such use would still allow PR to state at its website that they use a special natural yeast. From what I have read, it appears that lager type beer yeasts are better to use at lower temperatures.

As for the flour used by PR, all that we know is that in Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10382.msg91642#msg91642, ADM high-gluten flour was mentioned. But that was back in 2010. And Scott mentioned that the flour was a bleached and bromated white flour. There are many brands of high gluten flours that are bleached and bromated. All Trumps is just one such brand.

I think it is important to keep a couple of things in mind. First, companies do not remain static. With time, they change things. So, in PR's case, what they do today at its commissary may well be different than what they did back in 2010. Second, you also have to be careful with what employees say about the products they are making. They often make mistakes or say things that are misleading or even wrong. And it may be entirely innocent. Some might even guess at an answer so as not to look dumb. And some will lie, especially if they think you are trying to get at their secrets. In my time on the forum, I have experienced all of these things. This forces you to "trust but verify". That isn't always easy.

Peter

Iíll have to try some more beer yeasts then. I didnít know that about lager type ones. Much appreciated. You bring up very important points about the flour and verifying. Iíve wondered that when Iíve seen employees tell me info that I knew was wrong or seemed wrong. Itís nice when owners/employees are right but youíre right that we must verify. I found it interesting with regards to the hard grating cheese mentioned. Iím assuming they pre-grate it into the shredded mozz, since itís never seen as a step. I have a feeling that some little things may have changed a bit over the years but Iíll have to do some tests and see. You guys on this site are a massive help with tons of knowledge. 
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 22, 2018, 12:54:10 PM
Pod4477,

What I have learned over the years is that there are two major components of pizza making. They are knowledge and skill. The knowledge part can save you from making mistakes or errors, which can save you a great deal of time and pain, but even when you succeed from the knowledge side, you still need the application of skill. I read an interesting article on this subject this morning that you might enjoy. The article is at http://awealthofcommonsense.com/2018/09/knowledge-vs-skill/. The author of the article works for a financial management firm in NYC but what he discusses has broad application. As I read the article, I had to smile when I read about the NBA basketball player Ray Allen and how he was praised for his supposed natural ability to make spectacular jump shots. That irritated him no end because he practiced almost endlessly.

The Ray Allen case also reminded me of Larry Bird of the Boston Celtics and Carl Yastrzemski of the Boston Red Sox, two of my most favorite players as a kid growing up in New England. Everyone praised both players for their natural born talent but they ignored the fact that both men practiced endlessly. Yastrzemski once said that he was an average player and that his success was due to the amount of time he devoted to his skills. According to one article I read about him, even as a kid he would take a bat with him when he went out to do his farm work, and upon finishing he'd fill up a bucket with rocks and practice hitting them out across the fields. He also hung a baseball by a string from the ceiling of the family garage, and each night he took hundreds of practice swings before and after dinner. As for Larry Bird, he always went out onto the court long before game time and took hundreds of shots. Someone once asked me if I had a role model who inspired me the most as I embarked upon my career, and I said Larry Bird. It was because of his work ethic and his attention to detail. He simply outworked everyone.

Perhaps we, as pizza makers, don't have to go to the lengths that Bird and Yastrzemski went to perfect their craft but knowledge of pizza making alone, while helpful, still needs execution. And the best manifestation of that is practice, practice, practice. This also applies to projects where we try to reverse engineer and clone pizzas of others. You have to be dogged in your approach, as you are doing with your PR pursuit, and try to find the needed information and conduct experiments and tests that lead you to successful clones.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: RedSauce on September 22, 2018, 02:42:51 PM
FWIW, if I may: a pizzeria I was associated with about ten years ago ordered their fresh yeast from their provider in one-pound blocks. They took whatever brand the provider had warehoused at the moment. One brand that often came in was Budweiser. It appears that AB has a line of yeasts, not surprisingly considering they're one of the world's biggest brewers. But this was baker's yeast, not brewer's yeast. When another brand would be delivered, no difference-same stuff, just standard fresh baker's yeast. So chasing beer yeast may not yield the answer and probably won't, in my view.

Regarding PR, I've spent much time in the original and a few branches, as a patron. The guy in the video seems to be speaking in loose generalities. The claim of "special natural yeast"?, well, special to whom? And I've yet to come across any unnatural yeast. I'd take all this with .05g of salt.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 22, 2018, 03:10:55 PM
FWIW, if I may: a pizzeria I was associated with about ten years ago ordered their fresh yeast from their provider in one-pound blocks. They took whatever brand the provider had warehoused at the moment. One brand that often came in was Budweiser. It appears that AB has a line of yeasts, not surprisingly considering they're one of the world's biggest brewers. But this was baker's yeast, not brewer's yeast. When another brand would be delivered, no difference-same stuff, just standard fresh baker's yeast. So chasing beer yeast may not yield the answer and probably won't, in my view.

Regarding PR, I've spent much time in the original and a few branches, as a patron. The guy in the video seems to be speaking in loose generalities. The claim of "special natural yeast"?, well, special to whom? And I've yet to come across any unnatural yeast. I'd take all this with .05g of salt.
RedSauce,

You may well be right. Some time ago, I looked into the Budweiser matter and reported on what I found at the time at Reply 13 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10382.msg91812#msg91812. And when I updated that search recently all that I found was a discussion of the large number of beer yeasts Budweiser uses in its business and how they are guarded like Fort Knox. So that told me that they were not in the business of selling beer yeasts to the public. That was one of the reasons that I suggested that Pod4477 call the beer yeast place in Woburn. With the PR commissary in their back yard, they might have some knowledge about whether PR is using beer yeast. If they say that they have no knowledge of the matter, that would mean something. Or maybe they would then look into the matter, even if out of curiosity. At the same time, they may be able to elucidate on the matter of using beer yeasts, and the best ones to use, in a pizza dough.

As for the term "special", I view that term in the context of a pizza dough, which is the context that PR itself created at its website and elsewhere. And there is nothing special about fresh yeast that I have been able to identify. As you know from your own experience in the business, fresh yeast is used by many pizza operators, either out of habit or because of its lower cost relative to dry yeasts. It also sounds like from Pod4477's posts that there is some unusual but appealing flavor profile to the PR crusts that I suspect goes beyond what a fresh yeast would provide. So, for now, I am inclined to see if better information becomes available on the type of yeast PR is using. But I appreciate your input and the possibility that you may be right. It's all part of the thrill of the hunt ;D.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 22, 2018, 04:17:09 PM
FWIW, if I may: a pizzeria I was associated with about ten years ago ordered their fresh yeast from their provider in one-pound blocks. They took whatever brand the provider had warehoused at the moment. One brand that often came in was Budweiser. It appears that AB has a line of yeasts, not surprisingly considering they're one of the world's biggest brewers. But this was baker's yeast, not brewer's yeast. When another brand would be delivered, no difference-same stuff, just standard fresh baker's yeast. So chasing beer yeast may not yield the answer and probably won't, in my view.

Regarding PR, I've spent much time in the original and a few branches, as a patron. The guy in the video seems to be speaking in loose generalities. The claim of "special natural yeast"?, well, special to whom? And I've yet to come across any unnatural yeast. I'd take all this with .05g of salt.

Thank you! Very interesting about the Budweiser. Iím still learning about bakerís yeast vs brewers. I wonder how liquid would be for baking. Iíve been going to their locations almost every other day for months now and I wonder as well. Haha .5g of salt; Iíll have to get my gram scale.

RedSauce,

You may well be right. Some time ago, I looked into the Budweiser matter and reported on what I found at the time at Reply 13 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10382.msg91812#msg91812. And when I updated that search recently all that I found was a discussion of the large number of beer yeasts Budweiser uses in its business and how they are guarded like Fort Knox. So that told me that they were not in the business of selling beer yeasts to the public. That was one of the reasons that I suggested that Pod4477 call the beer yeast place in Woburn. With the PR commissary in their back yard, they might have some knowledge about whether PR is using beer yeast. If they say that they have no knowledge of the matter, that would mean something. Or maybe they would then look into the matter, even if out of curiosity. At the same time, they may be able to elucidate on the matter of using beer yeasts, and the best ones to use, in a pizza dough.

As for the term "special", I view that term in the context of a pizza dough, which is the context that PR itself created at its website and elsewhere. And there is nothing special about fresh yeast that I have been able to identify. As you know from your own experience in the business, fresh yeast is used by many pizza operators, either out of habit or because of its lower cost relative to dry yeasts. It also sounds like from Pod4477's posts that there is some unusual but appealing flavor profile to the PR crusts that I suspect goes beyond what a fresh yeast would provide. So, for now, I am inclined to see if better information becomes available on the type of yeast PR is using. But I appreciate your input and the possibility that you may be right. It's all part of the thrill of the hunt ;D.

Peter

Loved your examples about Bird, Allen, and Yaz. All favorites of mine and hard work is so important. Youíre so right about knowledge and skill. My skill has improved just from repeated pizza making but my knowledge has improved from being on here. It really does take years and years to develop this stuff.
The crust has always puzzled me. I ask myself why is it better than other chains or small pizza places around here. The Maillard reaction seems to be one reason, I think due to the oven mainly (not being too hot and not too cool). The other reason seems to be the awesome crumb, which could be from the yeast or oil added it seems. The oil seemed to make a difference using 1 Tbsp per 300g flour. The wheaty flavor that people claim seems to be from the Miallard reaction and I wonder if that has anything to do with the yeast, since for instance Papa Ginoís doesnít have that wheaty flavor, even though they use a pretty similar oven temp, flour, and oil Iím assuming.  I enjoy the chase and am determined.

Ive been getting pretty close results texture wise keeping my Ooni oven temps around 600-700į. I get the fire burning and let the lump charcoal go to only embers to fuel the oven at a steady temp. It was confirmed by Pizzashark that the oven temp is not as hot as people believed. It was the ingredients that puzzled me the most. My latest taste tests narrowed down a tender (most likely oil added to it) crumb with minor sourness one time, but none another time. The outer browned crust seems to be where the wheat cereal taste comes from mainly. In Boston, it seems to cook more towards the Neapolitan end of the spectrum, but without any leapoarding due to lack of flame of course. In Braintree the oven is set to 485į and just canít replicate the Original location. The pies come out either very pale or intensely crispy from long cook times. Iím happy with both due to their dough. I know I can never replicate the original oven taste, but texture wise I can get it close enough. The cheese will be a struggle and the dough will continue to be a journey.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 22, 2018, 05:56:31 PM
Pod4477,

Prompted by RedSauce's comments, I decided to shift gears again and did a search to see if there is such a thing as a "special" fresh yeast. I even used special fresh yeast as search terms. The search turned up only one product, a Fleischmann's product from Canada that is described at https://www.bakersauthority.com/collections/baked-bakery-products/products/fleischmanns-bakers-select-yeast as follows:

A special strain of saccharomyces cerevisiae, chosen and cultivated for uniformity, rapid activity and enhanced stability in all yeast leavened bakery applications. Baker's Select compressed yeast benefits include the following: Provides consistent yeast performance in low sugar and high sugar yeast leavened products. Baker's Select yeast has been specifically chosen for its superior activity throughout the shelf life of the product vs standard compressed yeast. Product keeping quality at elevated storage temperatures demonstrates that Baker's Select compressed yeast is twice as stable when compared to standard compressed yeast.

Since Fleischmann's is a part of AB Mauri, I also went to their website, at http://abmna.com/products/, and it appears that their Fleischmann's fresh yeast is also a special strain, described as follow:

Fleischmannísģ Fresh Yeast
Fleischmannísģ Yeast products are special strains of yeast that are chosen and cultivated for uniformity, hardiness, strength, stability and consistency. Fresh Yeast is used by bakers in a wide variety of bakery applications from low-sugar French breads to high-sugar sweet rolls. It has excellent activity that works well with automated bakery equipment because it reduces variance and narrows proofing windows. Fresh yeast is available in cream, crumbled and block forms.


So, if PR is using a product such as described above, maybe Scott and RedSauce were right after all.

I think it may still be a good idea to speak to someone at the Woburn beer yeast place to see how they react to your call.

Peter


Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 22, 2018, 06:23:31 PM
Following up on my last post, I decided to do another search in which I used the terms special natural yeast, all in quotes. Here are some of the hits:

http://www.honolulumagazine.com/Honolulu-Magazine/Biting-Commentary/June-2016/First-Look-Shirokiya-Japan-Village-Walk/#.W6bESfZFwdU

https://style.vegewel.com/en/mugiwarai-2/,

https://books.google.com/books?id=vMm8pI83VewC&pg=PA199&lpg=PA199&dq=%22special+natural+yeast%22&source=bl&ots=SL6eLFPP8b&sig=Q0mHp8tUf8t2-rlRs394aDXyH0w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi3_v_fzs_dAhUqwMQHHbA6BxkQ6AEwBXoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22special%20natural%20yeast%22&f=false

https://sites.google.com/site/traditionalitalianchrles/

There were several other hits, many of which relate to pannetone.

What the special natural yeast is used in the above examples is not clear. It may be a sourdough type product.

I also found several references to PR because of its use of the terms searched.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 22, 2018, 11:51:12 PM
Following up on my last post, I decided to do another search in which I used the terms special natural yeast, all in quotes. Here are some of the hits:

http://www.honolulumagazine.com/Honolulu-Magazine/Biting-Commentary/June-2016/First-Look-Shirokiya-Japan-Village-Walk/#.W6bESfZFwdU

https://style.vegewel.com/en/mugiwarai-2/,

https://books.google.com/books?id=vMm8pI83VewC&pg=PA199&lpg=PA199&dq=%22special+natural+yeast%22&source=bl&ots=SL6eLFPP8b&sig=Q0mHp8tUf8t2-rlRs394aDXyH0w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi3_v_fzs_dAhUqwMQHHbA6BxkQ6AEwBXoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22special%20natural%20yeast%22&f=false

https://sites.google.com/site/traditionalitalianchrles/

There were several other hits, many of which relate to pannetone.

What the special natural yeast is used in the above examples is not clear. It may be a sourdough type product.

I also found several references to PR because of its use of the terms searched.

Peter

Youíre the man! Thatís such a good idea to search using those terms. Very good investigative work. Iím going to call Woburn tomorrow or Monday, but very interesting about Fleischmannís yeast. I use their fresh yeast as itís available around here. Iíve loved it and I do think itís better than dry yeast. So I wonder if PR is using one of the yeasts you found, and I wonder what would be the closest thing available. If theyíre using a sourdough type product I wonder if small amounts of sourdough would yield the same results. I do wonder what is contributing to the wheaty taste. Perhaps it is just the flour theyíre using or if it is a mix of things. Either way, your work and everyone on hereís input has been amazing.

 As far as the cheese and tomatoes; I believe the info that they are using a grating cheese along with Mozz, but still trying to figure out which one. Any ideas on a mild grating cheese? Iím thinking just regular alarm or Romano. I was told by someone close to PR that they are adding water to their tomatoes along with a bay leaf and Romano, but Iím not sure how much Romano cheese.  I actually was able to spot a bay leaf sitting on my pizza right after lol. Iím assuming small amounts of water and cheese added to the tomatoes. Looks like a typical ground sauce and the water I assume is for the long bake time. Under the cheese always has that pink look to the tomatoes. The tomatoes always did taste watered down to me, but that person didnít give me any more info besides that the cheese comes in as loaves and they shred it there.  No mention of grated cheese, but Iím sure they donít give that out. Iíve been talking to as many people around here as I can. They did mention the cold ferment, I believe on the dough and I saw them sitting as flat discs ready to be opened.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Brent-r on September 23, 2018, 08:43:56 AM
From the Fleischmann's description:

"Packaging: Box

Shelf Life: Maintaining proper temperature and consumption within 10 Ė 14 days of receipt is recommended.

Applications: Designed for all yeast raised products such as bread, buns, rolls, croissants, danish, bread sticks, pretzels and pizza.

Preperation Instructions: Add fresh directly to mixer, no need to rehydrate in water prior to use. Product should be kept cold (<45 F) until ready for use. To maximize performance, only remove as much yeast from cooler as you will use in thirty minutes."


Let see 24lb per box, 
How much per skin,
All in 10 to 14 days,
I don't have enough firewood to bake that much let alone eat them.
On to plan B
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 23, 2018, 09:30:15 AM
Pod4477,

I am coming to believe that PR is using a fresh yeast that has something "special" about it, along the lines mentioned in my earlier post with respect to the Fleischmann's fresh yeast. If they are using a beer yeast and it can be incorporated easily into its processing at their commissary, I suppose that that could be a possibility. So, maybe you will get a better feel for this after you talk to someone at the beer yeast place in Woburn.

I would also be surprised if PR was using a sourdough. Even in a commissary setting with good controls, that could be difficult to do on a consistent basis. There are just too many variables. From time to time, you will find places that use sourdough but not in the number of stores that PR has. It is usually a very small number of places under the same management. Even the well known pizza chain Franco Manca in the UK, which now has about forty locations, and uses a natural leavening system, makes its dough at each location, not in a commissary. I mention this place because one of our members, pizzanapoletana (Marco Parente), created the dough formulation and related procedures for Franco Manca and also assisted with the ovens. That was when they were basically beginning and before they expanded to become a pizza powerhouse in London and surrounding areas. You can read about Franco Manca at https://www.francomanca.co.uk/. Marco is often cited in articles about Franco Manca. See, for example, the article at https://metro.co.uk/2008/05/06/franco-manca-is-a-top-pizza-contender-125228/.

I perhaps should also mention that there are places that sell sourdough flavorings. As one example that some of our members tried but did not like, see the King Arthur sourdough flavoring at https://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1513187559004.pdf. Based on the recommended usage, and the price (almost $15 for 12 ounces), such a product, even at wholesale, would be too expensive.

I think it is also important to keep in mind that, unlike the places that specialize in the use of natural leavening systems and pretty much limit themselves to pizzas and maybe a few other items, PR also offers a ton of other kinds of foods, including starters, soups, salads, specialty items (like parmagianas), pastas, calzones, and sandwiches. With that lineup, making pizzas has to be a well orchestrated exercise with little room for error.

Like Scott, I noted your preference for the fresh yeast form of yeast. I have read of that preference among bakers for years. However, Tom Lehmann, who conducted tests at the American Institute of Baking (AIB), where he worked for almost 50 years, says that the tests of IDY, ADY and fresh yeast showed no difference in results. See, for example, his post at Reply 7 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=16775.msg164060#msg164060. Tom is not alone in this view. The highly regarded San Francisco Baking Institute (SFBI) says the same thing when it compares IDY and fresh yeast. See  https://www.sfbi.com/fresh-yeast-vs-instant-yeast.html.

With respect to the grated cheeses used at PR, if you go to their menu at http://www.reginapizzeria.com/downloads/menus/regina%20allston%20full%20menu%201%202015.pdf and look at the components of the pizzas sold by PR, and also the list of Gourmet Toppings, you will see references to Pecorino Romano cheese and Parmesan cheese.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 23, 2018, 08:16:20 PM
Pod4477,

I am coming to believe that PR is using a fresh yeast that has something "special" about it, along the lines mentioned in my earlier post with respect to the Fleischmann's fresh yeast. If they are using a beer yeast and it can be incorporated easily into its processing at their commissary, I suppose that that could be a possibility. So, maybe you will get a better feel for this after you talk to someone at the beer yeast place in Woburn.

I would also be surprised if PR was using a sourdough. Even in a commissary setting with good controls, that could be difficult to do on a consistent basis. There are just too many variables. From time to time, you will find places that use sourdough but not in the number of stores that PR has. It is usually a very small number of places under the same management. Even the well known pizza chain Franco Manca in the UK, which now has about forty locations, and uses a natural leavening system, makes its dough at each location, not in a commissary. I mention this place because one of our members, pizzanapoletana (Marco Parente), created the dough formulation and related procedures for Franco Manca and also assisted with the ovens. That was when they were basically beginning and before they expanded to become a pizza powerhouse in London and surrounding areas. You can read about Franco Manca at https://www.francomanca.co.uk/. Marco is often cited in articles about Franco Manca. See, for example, the article at https://metro.co.uk/2008/05/06/franco-manca-is-a-top-pizza-contender-125228/.

I perhaps should also mention that there are places that sell sourdough flavorings. As one example that some of our members tried but did not like, see the King Arthur sourdough flavoring at https://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1513187559004.pdf. Based on the recommended usage, and the price (almost $15 for 12 ounces), such a product, even at wholesale, would be too expensive.

I think it is also important to keep in mind that, unlike the places that specialize in the use of natural leavening systems and pretty much limit themselves to pizzas and maybe a few other items, PR also offers a ton of other kinds of foods, including starters, soups, salads, specialty items (like parmagianas), pastas, calzones, and sandwiches. With that lineup, making pizzas has to be a well orchestrated exercise with little room for error.

Like Scott, I noted your preference for the fresh yeast form of yeast. I have read of that preference among bakers for years. However, Tom Lehmann, who conducted tests at the American Institute of Baking (AIB), where he worked for almost 50 years, says that the tests of IDY, ADY and fresh yeast showed no difference in results. See, for example, his post at Reply 7 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=16775.msg164060#msg164060. Tom is not alone in this view. The highly regarded San Francisco Baking Institute (SFBI) says the same thing when it compares IDY and fresh yeast. See  https://www.sfbi.com/fresh-yeast-vs-instant-yeast.html.

With respect to the grated cheeses used at PR, if you go to their menu at http://www.reginapizzeria.com/downloads/menus/regina%20allston%20full%20menu%201%202015.pdf and look at the components of the pizzas sold by PR, and also the list of Gourmet Toppings, you will see references to Pecorino Romano cheese and Parmesan cheese.

Peter

I believe youíre right. Iím going to guess thatís exactly what it is. Iím still learning about sourdough but youíre right about the expense. Yes I have come to notice less difference between fresh and dry lately. Dry yeast has been so much easier in testing, especially IDY.

I think I figured out the other cheese: White Cheddar. Not a surprise around here but a surprise if Regina is using it. I may be wrong, but after testing melted Parmesan, Romano, Provolone, Fontina, and Asiago, none gave me that fatty, buttery, taste that my mild white cheddar did.  Reginaís cheese seems to be mild and not sharp so it seems to fit. I havenít tasted Mild White Cheddar in a while, but once I tasted it today I knew that flavor was close or the exact flavor. I did get a cheddar comment on my cheese post, so I should have tried it sooner. Anyone on here near a PR to do some taste tests? Haha you all know plenty more than me about this stuff.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 24, 2018, 11:09:01 AM
Pod4477,

While we were dribbling around in the backcourt trying to find out how PR makes and manages its dough, and what the ingredients are for the dough, including the "secret natural yeast", Norma posted links to some very good videos, at Reply 23 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54123.msg544964#msg544964

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gNnV2Wpopg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=PJDauNRd6J8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=pMR1Zbp1iWM


As you will see from the videos, the dough is said to be made on a Monday and that the dough can end up in the pizzerias around Thursday. Between Monday and Thursday, the dough ferments, or "ages". The dough then then undergoes aging for a couple more days, and, finally is proofed. This is pretty much as we postulated in earlier posts. In fact, I couldn't get over how similar the dough management is to what Papa John's does. In Papa John's case, the dough is not supposed to be used before three days, since that is said to lead to a sour taste in the crust. Also, the rise is insufficient at under three days. While in the PJ stores, the dough continues to ferment (age) and is ready to use, for up to four more days. Before using to make pizzas, the dough is supposed to temper at a temperature of around 50-60 degrees. In one of the videos, Anthony Buccieri uses the term proofing instead of tempering but they are the same. Proofing is a term that is more commonly used in bread baking.

We are also told in the videos that there is no oil in the dough. And, as for the cheese, it is indeed from Great Lakes in NY, most likely under the Empire name, even though the Empire name was not used in the videos. As can be seen at about 1:09 in the third video, the cheese comes in block form and is grated at the store level. Nothing was said about whether the cheese blocks are frozen when delivered to PR. When PR says that it ages its cheese, they may mean that defrosting the cheese and holding it until used is "aging" it.

On the matter of the sauce, it is made from a Stanislaus tomato product, much as Stanislaus does for Papa John's and many others. I could not tell from the videos whether anything was added to the tomatoes, either by Stanislaus or by PR, but I am sure that you can tell from your many taste testings. The videos show the sauce being spread to about a quarter of an inch from the absolute edge. That is what Papa John's calls a "sauce lock". That helps keep the rim from expanding excessively (upwards and sideways) during baking and perhaps having a lot of bubbles. Papa John's also uses what is called a "cheese lock", which is spreading the cheese over the outer edge of the sauce. In one of the videos, Anthony said that the cheese should be spread to the edge of the pizza, but I did not see the cheese overlap the edge of the sauce in the examples shown in the videos.

It appears that the PR pizzas are baked at a temperature of about 550 degrees F for about 7-8 minutes. That is similar to what is done with many types of pizzas, such as NY style pizzas. But one of the advantages of a long bake time is that there is an increased likelihood that the crusts will be darker due to the Maillard reactions and the denaturing of the protein in the dough. However, that will generally only happen if there is sufficient residual sugars in the dough after the yeast has been fed to contribute to crust coloration.

What I did not see or hear in any of the videos is any reference to a "special natural yeast" in the dough. The videos praised just about everything that PR does but no mention of something that they have touted at their website and in articles as being an important component of the dough used to make their crusts. Usually people mention things that differentiate their products from similar products produced by others. But maybe PR has secrets that it does not want to reveal, or it doesn't want anyone to know that the "special natural yeast" is fresh yeast and not an earth shattering ingredient.

As an aside, can you tell me what size pizzas PR makes? The menu says 10" and 16", and the board on which the skins are formed show two circles, one large and one small.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 24, 2018, 01:50:06 PM
Awesome breakdown! Just finished the videos and noticed some interesting things. Itís important for me to have your analysis since you have way more experience than me, and it helps me understand what Anythony is telling.

Dough: good info from Anthony on the number of days. So the tempering at 50-60į is basically coming up to room temp before the bake? Braintree has them in a plastic container with plastic wrap on them, flattened into discs. Im guessing they are using a small amount of yeast if they can be used at time up to 7 days? Iím happy itís similar to PJ because of your PJ clone recipe. You were right all along when you talked about PJ. I love how forthcoming Anythony is in the first video. He seems like a cool guy. I was shocked to hear of no oil in the dough. Pizzashark claims they did and it seems like they do, but Iíll have to make some with and without and compare.

Cheese: thatís a good point about frozen and aging. I found it rather interesting that the term ďblendĒ is used twice in links. Once by Anthony in the video and once in the article. Definitely seem to be using Empire Mozz but Iím beginning to think another cheese has to be used, and it seems in line with White Cheddar notes.

Tomatoes/Sauce: They claim they use only tomatoes, basil, and Romano, but Iíve seen no basil in any of their pies. Instead Iíve seen bay leaf in Braintreeís and have been told they add water and cheese. Perhaps they meant at the commissary they add these things, but from the videos I forgot how ground the tomatoes look. Looks like a typical raw sauce with a good balance of water and tomatoes but no big chunks or big pieces of skins.

Pizza Construction: Boston North End makes a 10Ē and 16Ē but Braintree makes only a 16Ē. Youíre very right about the sauce lock and cheese lock. It seems like the different locations do things a bit different than each other. Iíve seen some workers push the air out to the very edge of the dough (which is a no no for most people of course) and then open the dough up. But some may not do that. Also the North End location seems to focus the cheese in the middle.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 24, 2018, 02:50:52 PM
Pod4477,

The 50-60 degrees F range is common among many chains. But you do not want to let the dough warm to room temperature. You want it to temper AT room temperature but not get too warm because the dough can overferment. FYI, this is what Papa John's says about this:

Check Dough Temperature, Take Proper Steps Ė Standards require the dough to be 50įF to 60įF (10įC to ~16įC) for use at the Dough Slapping Station.  Using a calibrated thermometer, measure the dough temperature. If the dough is too cold, cross-stack dough trays until dough reaches 50įF (10įC). If the dough is too warm, return the trays to the walk-in until they reach the proper temperature

The above exercise might be different at PR based on volumes, room temperature, etc. But I am sure that their workers know how to manage the process.

As for the amount of yeast that might be used, and assuming a maximum six days (144 hours) of cold fermentation, with part of that fermentation taking place at the commissary for several days and presumably delivered to the PR stores with temperature control, and the rest of the fermentation taking place at the stores in their coolers, and further assuming a controlled dough temperature of between 33 degrees F and 39 degrees F, the tool at Reply 188 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26831.msg349349.html#msg349349 would suggest an amount of fresh yeast of around 0.20-0.30%. However, unlike Papa John's, which keeps its dough balls below freezing temperatures at all times, even in the refrigerated vehicles that deliver dough balls to the PJ stores, PR may not be as fussy and may be able to tolerate less rigid control of dough temperatures. So, the amount of yeast might be different than stated above. But for your purposes, the 0.20-0.30% fresh yeast might be a good place to start.

With respect to the sauce used by PR, I don't know what they receive from Stanislaus. In Papa John's case, they receive cans of ready-to-use pizza sauce tailored by Stanislaus to the specs that PJ gives them. Nothing is added to the sauce at the store level. It is just ladled into Lexan containers. The cans have PJ labels on them and they are maintained at all times at room temperature. The reason for that is that the sauce can negatively affect the baking of the pizzas if it is cool. The shelf life of the sauce is ten hours, after which time any unused sauce is supposed to be discarded. Again, I am sure that PR has procedures that relate to the preparation of sauces and making sure that they do not violate health safety rules.

As for the oil, I do not recall what PizzaShark said on that matter, but pizza operators often coat the dough balls with oil before going into the coolers to ferment. Depending on the amount used, that oil might or might not be detected on the normal palate when eating the pizzas. But there is no harm in your trying doughs with oil in them. Maybe a percent or two.

I noticed that you said that you have an ooni oven. What size pizza can you make with that oven? Also, what characteristics are you looking for in your PR clones? When I looked at photos of PR pizzas on Google, the pizzas were all over the place. But a light colored crust seemed to be quite common.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 25, 2018, 08:55:19 PM
Pod4477,

The 50-60 degrees F range is common among many chains. But you do not want to let the dough warm to room temperature. You want it to temper AT room temperature but not get too warm because the dough can overferment. FYI, this is what Papa John's says about this:

Check Dough Temperature, Take Proper Steps Ė Standards require the dough to be 50įF to 60įF (10įC to ~16įC) for use at the Dough Slapping Station.  Using a calibrated thermometer, measure the dough temperature. If the dough is too cold, cross-stack dough trays until dough reaches 50įF (10įC). If the dough is too warm, return the trays to the walk-in until they reach the proper temperature

The above exercise might be different at PR based on volumes, room temperature, etc. But I am sure that their workers know how to manage the process.

As for the amount of yeast that might be used, and assuming a maximum six days (144 hours) of cold fermentation, with part of that fermentation taking place at the commissary for several days and presumably delivered to the PR stores with temperature control, and the rest of the fermentation taking place at the stores in their coolers, and further assuming a controlled dough temperature of between 33 degrees F and 39 degrees F, the tool at Reply 188 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26831.msg349349.html#msg349349 would suggest an amount of fresh yeast of around 0.20-0.30%. However, unlike Papa John's, which keeps its dough balls below freezing temperatures at all times, even in the refrigerated vehicles that deliver dough balls to the PJ stores, PR may not be as fussy and may be able to tolerate less rigid control of dough temperatures. So, the amount of yeast might be different than stated above. But for your purposes, the 0.20-0.30% fresh yeast might be a good place to start.

With respect to the sauce used by PR, I don't know what they receive from Stanislaus. In Papa John's case, they receive cans of ready-to-use pizza sauce tailored by Stanislaus to the specs that PJ gives them. Nothing is added to the sauce at the store level. It is just ladled into Lexan containers. The cans have PJ labels on them and they are maintained at all times at room temperature. The reason for that is that the sauce can negatively affect the baking of the pizzas if it is cool. The shelf life of the sauce is ten hours, after which time any unused sauce is supposed to be discarded. Again, I am sure that PR has procedures that relate to the preparation of sauces and making sure that they do not violate health safety rules.

As for the oil, I do not recall what PizzaShark said on that matter, but pizza operators often coat the dough balls with oil before going into the coolers to ferment. Depending on the amount used, that oil might or might not be detected on the normal palate when eating the pizzas. But there is no harm in your trying doughs with oil in them. Maybe a percent or two.

I noticed that you said that you have an ooni oven. What size pizza can you make with that oven? Also, what characteristics are you looking for in your PR clones? When I looked at photos of PR pizzas on Google, the pizzas were all over the place. But a light colored crust seemed to be quite common.

Peter

Thank you! I cold fermented some .15% yeast dough (cottonseed oil added) for two days just to test. Came out very close, but sitting at room temp the dough came up to about 65į. Was my fault, but still came out good. I used a 70-30 blend of Mozz to Cheddar and it tasted very close to PR. Only put a bay leaf and by if Romano in some ground kitchen ready tomatoes as a test. Next Iíll try .20% yeast. Your help, along with everyoneís is immensely appreciated. Pzzashark just said that they added cottonseed oil and it added a nutty flavor. It seems to make a big difference. I compared their crumb to Chateau bread and the difference seemed to be the oil. I noticed their crust does blister a lot in Braintree so I wonder if thatís the oil or just the cold ferment. The process of the cold ferment and the tomatoes in your last post helped a lot. Itís seeming more and more clear that Pizzashark was right then he says the secret of their pizza is their cheese and their oven. Iím almost positive their using cheddar or a similar mild fatty cheese. Once I used this blend last night, I could immediately smell the buttery smell from the fat and the taste was very close. Iíll use more cheddar next time, but I donít think any grated cheese lends to their buttery smell quite like the cheddar.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 26, 2018, 11:52:59 AM
Lately I kind of prefer a flatter crust, but how do you think they achieve the crust below exactly? I know that day the kid making it did flatten the entire dough all the way to the edges, pushing all the CO2 out with his fingertips. The dough does seem to rise a bit which I canít seem to replicate other than doing a same day dough.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 26, 2018, 11:56:17 AM
Pod4477,

Out of curiosity, were you able to speak with someone at the beer yeast place in Woburn about whether beer yeast can be used in pizza dough? The reason I ask is because in my searches I saw examples of beer yeast, fresh yeast and sourdough that were described as special, natural and fresh. Notably, in the videos that Norma found, there was reference by Anthony that they are using a recipe that goes back almost 90 years but with some tweaking to get the recipe to its current status. PR is silent as to the form of the yeast used but it would be nice to rule out things as best we can. If I were to speculate, I would guess that back in 1926 the recipe called for only flour, water, yeast and salt, and possibly a little oil. And I would guess that they were not playing around with baker's percents and the like. Slide rules existed back in 1926 but electronic calculators weren't invented until 1966. So the PR dough makers back then most likely did things by the seat of their pants until they got the results they were looking for. I might add that I am suspicious of recipes that go back decades, often to some grandmother in Italy. That is a quite common marketing practice among pizza makers that boast of an Italian connection somewhere in their past. Even Papa Gino's did that. And there are several places in the Chicago and Detroit areas that have done the same thing.

With respect to the cheese, when I went back to the PR menu at http://www.reginapizzeria.com/downloads/menus/regina_northend_menu.pdf, I did not see cheddar cheese specifically listed for use on the PR pizzas. Importantly, for each of the pizzas where one or more cheeses are used, the cheeses are identified by name except for one pizza--the Shrimp Scampi & Spinach pizza. In that case, the cheeses are "assorted cheeses". It is hard for me to believe that PR is hiding cheddar cheese in a shrimp scampi and spinach pizza. Where you are in New England just about everyone has sampled pizzas with cheddar cheese, so it would not be unsual to see cheddar cheese listed as an ingredient. Of course, none of this should deter you from using cheddar cheese to simulate the cheeses that PR uses. In fact, it is a good approach to take. But I do not see any evidence to date that PR is using cheddar cheese on its pizzas.

With respect to the basic pizza sauce used by PR, one of the videos made a big case of how they contract to receive tomatoes from Stanislaus. However, there is nothing unusual about that. In fact, because of the way that fresh-pack tomatoes are harvested all at once, it is obligatory for end users to contract with Stanislaus to get their share of the harvest. Papa John's does the same thing. Malnati's of Chicago deep-dish fame does the same thing but with a different supplier (Neil Jones). And they all talk about how they go out to the companies like Stanislaus, Escalon and Neil Jones to check out the tomatoes in person. These three companies account for maybe ninety percent of sales of fresh-pack tomato products. So, an end user has to get in the queue fast to get a share of the output. As for the PR sauce itself, I think you correctly listed the ingredients for the sauce. According to one of the videos, the basic PR sauce only has a couple of additions to the tomatoes, namely, a little bit of grated Pecorino Romano cheese and a little bit of basil. And maybe some water to get the right consistency. This leads me to believe that it is quite possible that PR gets a standard Stanislaus tomato product from Stanislaus and tweaks it as mentioned. In fact, if you go to the Stanislaus website at https://www.stanislaus.com/products/nutrition-facts, you will find products that already have basil in them.

I also noted that you said that you found a bay leaf on one of your PR slices. It is possible that a bay leaf snuck into one of the PR pizza sauces from some other dish offered at PR, but it is generally advised by culinary experts not to eat bay leaves. While bay leaves are not toxic, they can be rigid and stiff, even after cooking. As such, a large piece could cause harm to the digestive tract or potentially (although rare) pose a choking hazard.

I am also curious whether you have a dough formulation specified by baker's percents. I ask this because there are many ways to skin a cat when attempting a cold fermentation of several days--six days in PRís case. Also, in the last paragraph of my last post I mentioned that I noticed that you said that you have an Ooni oven. I'm curious to know what size pizza can you make with that oven. Also, what characteristics are you looking for in your PR clones? When I looked at photos of PR pizzas on Google, the pizzas were all over the place. But a light colored crust seemed to be quite common. The answers these questions might help come up with a dough formulation that meets your specific needs while emulating a PR pizza as closely as possible.

Peter


Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 26, 2018, 12:34:55 PM
Pod4477,

Out of curiosity, were you able to speak with someone at the beer yeast place in Woburn about whether beer yeast can be used in pizza dough? The reason I ask is because in my searches I saw examples of beer yeast, fresh yeast and sourdough that were described as special, natural and fresh. Notably, in the videos that Norma found, there was reference by Anthony that they are using a recipe that goes back almost 90 years but with some tweaking to get the recipe to its current status. PR is silent as to the form of the yeast used but it would be nice to rule out things as best we can. If I were to speculate, I would guess that back in 1926 the recipe called for only flour, water, yeast and salt, and possibly a little oil. And I woud guess that they were not playing around with baker's percents and the like. Slide rules existed back in 1926 but electronic calculators weren't invented until 1966. So the PR dough makers back then most likely did things by the seat of their pants until they got the results they were looking for. I might add that I am suspicious of recipes that go back decades, often to some grandmother in Italy. That is a quite common marketing practice among pizza makers that boast of an Italian connection somewhere in their past. Even Papa Gino's did that. And there are several places in the Chicago and Detroit areas that have done the same thing.

With respect to the cheese, when I went back to the PR menu at http://www.reginapizzeria.com/downloads/menus/regina_northend_menu.pdf, I did not see cheddar cheese specifically listed for use on the PR pizzas. Importantly, for each of the pizzas where one or more cheeses are used, the cheeses are identified by name except for one pizza--the Shrimp Scampi & Spinach pizza. In that case, the cheeses are "assorted cheeses". It is hard for me to believe that PR is hiding cheddar cheese in a shrimp scampi and spinach pizza. Where you are in New England just about everyone has sampled pizzas with cheddar cheese, so it would not be unsual to see cheddar cheese listed as an ingredient. Of course, none of this should deter you from usnig cheddar cheese to simulate the cheeses that PR uses. In fact, it is a good approach to take. But I do not see any evidence to date that PR is using cheddar cheese on its pizzas.

With respect to the basic pizza sauce used by PR, one of the videos made a big case of how they contract to receive tomatoes from Stanislaus. However, there is nothing unusual about that. In fact, because of the way that fresh-pack tomatoes are harvested all at once, it is obligatory for end users to contract with Stanislaus to get their share of the harvest. Papa John's does the same thing. Malnati's of Chicago deep-dish fame does the same thing but with a different supplier (Neil Jones). And they all talk about how they go out to the companies like Stanislaus, Escalon and Neil Jones to check out the tomatoes in person. These three companies account for maybe ninety percent of sales of fresh-pack tomato products. So, an end user has to get in the queue fast to get a share of the output. As for the PR sauce itself, I think you correctly listed the ingredients for the sauce. According to one of the videos, the basic PR sauce only has a couple of additions to the tomatoes, namely, a little bit of grated Pecorino Romano cheese and a little bit of basil. This leads me to believe that it is quite possible that PR get a standard Stanislaus tomato product from Stanislaus and tweaks it as mentioned. In fact, if you go to the Stanislaus website at https://www.stanislaus.com/products/nutrition-facts, you will find products that already have basil in them.

I also noted that you said that you found a bay leaf on one of your PR slices. It is possible that a bay leaf snuck into one of the PR pizza sauces from some other dish offered at PR, but it is generally advised by culinary experts not to eat bay leaves. While bay leaves are not toxic, they can be rigid and stiff, even after cooking. As such, a large piece could cause harm to the digestive tract or potentially (although rare) pose a choking hazard.

I am also curious whether you have a dough formulation specified by baker's percents. I ask this because there are many ways to skin a cat when attempting a cold fermentation of several days--six days in PRs case. Also, in the last paragraph of my last post I mentioned that I noticed that you said that you have an Ooni oven. I'm curious to know what size pizza can you make with that oven. Also, what characteristics are you looking for in your PR clones? When I looked at photos of PR pizzas on Google, the pizzas were all over the place. But a light colored crust seemed to be quite common. The answers these questions might help come up with a dough formulation that meets your specific needs while emulating a PR pizza as closely as possible.

Peter

Sorry the 1st picture below is of the crust Iím trying to emulate. It does seem like all of their pizzas have a unique crust look to them. I usually call it a slope rather than a ridge. What do you think causes this? Braintree is extremely flat but the North send one shows the slope. I called the Wine and Beer shop in Woburn and the woman there didnít seem to know much about using beer yeast for baking, but seemed to allude to dry yeast being the only kind. I brought up PR just to see what sheíd say but she was silent. Maybe Iíll go down there and ask more. Very good point about them not using bakers percents back in the 20s. I think youíre season on with how it was done. I know the family that used to own it, but not well enough to ask lol.  Awesome people though. Yes Iím always cautious about recipes that are said to date back that long ago.

The cheese is the biggest mystery to me, because the most predominant smell of their pizza is the overwhelming butterfat smell. I could be wrong about the cheddar, but Iíve tried Empire mozz and it barely has any butterfat/no buttery smell and lacking in flavor, so I feel they must be using something else too. It has to be white and blended in the Mozzarella. Good idea to use the menu, which I had not even thought of. Very interesting about the assortment of cheeses on the Shrimp Scampi & Spinich. You guys know more about cheese than me of course, so what do you think is the source of that insane butter smell of the cheese? Itís a mystery to me. Iím positive I have the same Cuba, NY Empire Mozz that they use and I doubt aging it would yield the amount of grease and butterfat they are pumping out.

The second picture is my latest pizza attempt at PR and came out very good. Iíve been using this calculator in the third picture below to mess around a bit. The Uuni Pro I have has been able to do 16Ē pizzas. I got the gas attachment this week so itís taken some adjusting (and burning). Youíre so right about the PR pizzas being all over the place. Iíd say Iím trying to replicate a lighter pie; maybe in line with the 1st and 4th picture. My pizzas seem to come out closer to the North End location at times compared to the 1st pictures Braintree ones, but I do like the flat look of Braintrees there and Iíve been trying to copy it. Thank you, as I appreciate your help a ton!
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 26, 2018, 01:46:44 PM
Pod4477,

Where I live here in Texas, it is hard to find good cheeses, so I have pretty much stuck with the cheeses that the local supermarkets use. So, I don't fancy myself as a cheese expert.

I think you did a nice job with your PR clone. In fact, if you told me that it was a real PR pizza, I would have believed you. So you deserve kudos for that.

As for your dough formulation, I think that 3% salt might be a bit on the high side. The higher amount of salt will have the tendency to slow down the fermentation rate because of its inhibiting effect on yeast performance. You can read more about this effect in a King Arthur article on salt that I found at the Wayback Machine at:

https://web.archive.org/web/20051027064437/http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/4a1eb4311b0be08b2b590b39ac3f2c77/download/KAF-04-009%20Salt.pdf

As I have read various materials and looked at videos on the PR pizzas, I tried to pay attention to possible clues. For example, I either read or heard that the PR crust was thin but not NY style thin. Also, in one of the videos, the pizza maker described their pizza as Neapolitan thin crust. However, there is nothing Neapolitan about the PR pizzas. At this point, a reasonable thickness factor might be around 0.09-0.095. That somewhat hovers around the NY style thickness factor that some NY pizza makers use (up to about 0.10) but not on the lower side that other NY pizza makers use (e.g., 0.075-0.085). Can you tell me what your dough ball weight was for the pizza that you showed? That might be a good question for you to ask at a PR location sometime if you are in a position of doing so.

In my last post, I alluded to the fact that there are several ways of making a dough that can cold ferment for several days. A good example of that can be seen from my first Papa John's clone dough as described at Reply 2 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58197#msg58197. I mention that example because Papa John's also strives for a long fermentation period. PJ says something like 3-5 days but in practice is its more like 3-7 days, and maybe even a bit longer. In the abovereferenced PJ post, I used five days although the dough could have lasted another couple of days. You can see the measures I took in making the PJ dough, including sifting the flour and adding the yeast (IDY) last to the dough as it is mixed. Sifting the flour, although perhaps not necessary in your case, helps improve the hydration of the flour and also allows for a higher hydration value. The addition of the yeast last in the mixing process slows down the fermentation rate, allowing the dough to last longer before using to make pizzas.

Subsequent to the above exercise, I tried to make dough that could be cold fermented for six days, and even a couple of weeks or more. To give you an example of the sorts of things that can be done to achieve long cold fermentation times, at your leisure you can read these posts:

Reply 2 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33253#msg33253, and

Reply 23 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg35370#msg35370.

One of the reasons why I cite the dough made in accordance with Reply 23 is because I learned how powerful cold water can be if one is seeking a long cold fermentation period. It even allows for normal amounts of yeast. What I learned is that using too little yeast may backfire and you may end up with a dough that doesn't ferment properly and becomes basically unusable. When you use both cold water and late addition of the yeast to the mixing process, you can get doughs that can last as long as three weeks under cold fermentation. So those can be powerful tools.

Of course, in your case, you don't need to go out as far as I did, but you can rein in the procedures to give you six days. As an example, you can use somewhat cooler water and a modest amount of yeast such that the residual natural sugars that remain after feeding the yeast are on the low side. That would be reflected in a lighter crust coloration even with the Maillard reactions. If sugar in essentially any form is added to the dough formulation such that the residual sugars are on the high side, you are likely to get a deeper crust coloration. Of course, how you bake the pizzas in terms of bake time and temperature can also affect the final crust coloration. In that context, a long, slow bake can yield more crust coloration (and perhaps a reduced oven spring) than a shorter bake time at high temperature (and, all else being equal, a greater oven spring). As you can see, there is a delicate balance between hydration value, salt quantity, yeast quantity, water temperature, and the bake protocol (which is often dictated by the type of oven used). To this, I would add the type of flour. All else being equal, a flour with a higher protein content will yield a bit darker crust than a flour with a low protein content. But even with a high gluten flour you can still get a somewhat light crust if you can keep the residual sugar levels on the low side. Adding oil to the dough will have a contributory "wetting" effect on the dough and yield a more open crumb structure and a bit more tenderness and flavor if used at the proper level.

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: hammettjr on September 26, 2018, 09:30:31 PM
Only other thing I can say about cheese is dont underestimate the difference between different Romanos, particularly what a pizzeria has access to vs what you find at a supermarket. The parm I buy at a restaurant distributor tastes totally different than what I've tried from supermarkets.

Maybe PR will sell you some, or you can ask for a side of it?

As a side note, this is a great thread!

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: QwertyJuan on September 26, 2018, 09:38:25 PM
Hate to barge in on the budding bromance here  :o  :-D  ;D , but I'm wondering if PR is perhaps using a HIGH fat mozzarella.. in the area of 28% maybe, and that's why you are tasting a "buttery-ness" in the cheese?? I use 28% here at work and it's greasy like a cheddar when cooked. Just an FYI!  :chef:
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 26, 2018, 09:58:30 PM
Pod4477,

Where I live here in Texas, it is hard to find good cheeses, so I have pretty much stuck with the cheeses that the local supermarkets use. So, I don't fancy myself as a cheese expert.

I think you did a nice job with your PR clone. In fact, if you told me that it was a real PR pizza, I would have believed you. So you deserve kudos for that.

As for your dough formulation, I think that 3% salt might be a bit on the high side. The higher amount of salt will have the tendency to slow down the fermentation rate because of its inhibiting effect on yeast performance. You can read more about this effect in a King Arthur article on salt that I found at the Wayback Machine at:

https://web.archive.org/web/20051027064437/http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/4a1eb4311b0be08b2b590b39ac3f2c77/download/KAF-04-009%20Salt.pdf

As I have read various materials and looked at videos on the PR pizzas, I tried to pay attention to possible clues. For example, I either read or heard that the PR crust was thin but not NY style thin. Also, in one of the videos, the pizza maker described their pizza as Neapolitan thin crust. However, there is nothing Neapolitan about the PR pizzas. At this point, a reasonable thickness factor might be around 0.09-0.095. That somewhat hovers around the NY style thickness factor that some NY pizza makers use (up to about 0.10) but not on the lower side that other NY pizza makers use (e.g., 0.075-0.085). Can you tell me what your dough ball weight was for the pizza that you showed? That might be a good question for you to ask at a PR location sometime if you are in a position of doing so.

In my last post, I alluded to the fact that there are several ways of making a dough that can cold ferment for several days. A good example of that can be seen from my first Papa John's clone dough as described at Reply 2 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58197#msg58197. I mention that example because Papa John's also strives for a long fermentation period. PJ says something like 3-5 days but in practice is its more like 3-7 days, and maybe even a bit longer. In the abovereferenced PJ post, I used five days although the dough could have lasted another couple of days. You can see the measures I took in making the PJ dough, including sifting the flour and adding the yeast (IDY) last to the dough as it is mixed. Sifting the flour, although perhaps not necessary in your case, helps improve the hydration of the flour and also allows for a higher hydration value. The addition of the yeast last in the mixing process slows down the fermentation rate, allowing the dough to last longer before using to make pizzas.

Subsequent to the above exercise, I tried to make dough that could be cold fermented for six days, and even a couple of weeks or more. To give you an example of the sorts of things that can be done to achieve long cold fermentation times, at your leisure you can read these posts:

Reply 2 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33253#msg33253, and

Reply 23 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg35370#msg35370.

One of the reasons why I cite the dough made in accordance with Reply 23 is because I learned how powerful cold water can be if one is seeking a long cold fermentation period. It even allows for normal amounts of yeast. What I learned is that using too little yeast may backfire and you may end up with a dough that doesn't ferment properly and becomes basically unusable. When you use both cold water and late addition of the yeast to the mixing process, you can get doughs that can last as long as three weeks under cold fermentation. So those can be powerful tools.

Of course, in your case, you don't need to go out as far as I did, but you can rein in the procedures to give you six days. As an example, you can use somewhat cooler water and a modest amount of yeast such that the residual natural sugars that remain after feeding the yeast are on the low side. That would be reflected in a lighter crust coloration even with the Maillard reactions. If sugar in essentially any form is added to the dough formulation such that the residual sugars are on the high side, you are likely to get a deeper crust coloration. Of course, how you bake the pizzas in terms of bake time and temperature can also affect the final crust coloration. In that context, a long, slow bake can yield more crust coloration (and perhaps a reduced oven spring) than a shorter bake time at high temperature (and, all else being equal, a greater oven spring). As you can see, there is a delicate balance between hydration value, salt quantity, yeast quantity, water temperature, and the bake protocol (which is often dictated by the type of oven used). To this, I would add the type of flour. All else being equal, a flour with a higher protein content will yield a bit darker crust than a flour with a low protein content. But even with a high gluten flour you can still get a somewhat light crust if you can keep the residual sugar levels on the low side. Adding oil to the dough will have a contributory "wetting" effect on the dough and yield a more open crumb structure and a bit more tenderness and flavor if used at the proper level.

Peter

Thanks Peter! I would imagine TX would be tough for cheese. Youre right, the 3% is high but I think I was doing that just for taste testing. Iíll have to expirment more with cold water. I used to use really cold water and should try again. I should pretty much just follow your doigh. Tasting PR again tonight Iím not sure if they are using oil in the dough but it seems like it. I really do think a lot of the crust taste Iím tasting is from the long low temp bake at Braintree. Iím going to have to read your links a few times and replicate.

Haha bromance made me chuckle. Good points guys about the cheese. It might be a Romano blended that I canít get my hands on, or it could be a very high fat Mozz. Do you think Empire might be making a higher fat Mozzarella just for them?  Interesting how they said ďblendĒ twice in the interview/article. Leads me to believe itís two cheeses but who knows. There is definitely a ton of grease and very buttery smell/taste. I remember that I added butter like Pizzashark said and it came out close. The buttery taste is almost overpowering; itís that good. I put the pizza on my car hood 😂 and you can see how many bubbles there are, which is something my pizza had as well.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: foreplease on September 26, 2018, 11:47:32 PM
...Notably, in the videos that Norma found, there was reference by Anthony that they are using a recipe that goes back almost 90 years but with some tweaking to get the recipe to its current status. PR is silent as to the form of the yeast used but it would be nice to rule out things as best we can. If I were to speculate, I would guess that back in 1926 the recipe called for only flour, water, yeast and salt, and possibly a little oil. And I woud guess that they were not playing around with baker's percents and the like. Slide rules existed back in 1926 but electronic calculators weren't invented until 1966. So the PR dough makers back then most likely did things by the seat of their pants until they got the results they were looking for. I might add that I am suspicious of recipes that go back decades, often to some grandmother in Italy. That is a quite common marketing practice among pizza makers that boast of an Italian connection somewhere in their past. Even Papa Gino's did that. And there are several places in the Chicago and Detroit areas that have done the same thing


I feel just the opposite wrt very old recipes. Grandmothers do not get enough respect imho. Most restraunteers would probably agree, and intuitively I would be inclined to agree, that grandmothers would not be good in professional kitchens from the standpoint of production work type consistency. Give me a choice of eating at a skilled grandmotherís house or a nice restaurant I would probanly accept grandmaís invitation - or more likely grandpaís, who invited me without telling her.


From a cloning standpoint, you have to deal with incomplete and inconsistent information. Actually, first as you implied, you first have to determine if you believe it. Beyond that, if the recipe truly is decades old the difference in ingredients from then to now is likely different for every ingredient that contins more than one ingredient.


I donít know if they are still open but Enoteca Maria in Queens has kind of been on my bucket list since seeing this and one other video from TGN several years ago. I love these ladies!
https://youtu.be/ixrv7dJO0WQ (https://youtu.be/ixrv7dJO0WQ)
EDIT: this video is shorter and shows more interaction between the nonas and them actually cooking. The first one above is more about wine and the concept of having the nonas cook. https://youtu.be/KRZivoThe54 (https://youtu.be/KRZivoThe54)

Just recenttly Norm mentioned a 100 year old recipe for pickles and there was an immediate clamor to get the recipe from him. We have a family cookbook put together by my mom. Things from 3 generations older than me are in it. There are some real clunkers in it but many gems too. We have appreciated having it. I especially like my grandpaís recipe for pasta fagioli, now about 100 years old. Who knows, he may have got it off the back of the beans comtainer but it got written down and passed on. Final adjustments to this and many others is ďby taste.Ē How many of us do enough lf that. I certainly try to.



Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 27, 2018, 05:57:47 AM
https://boston.eater.com/2012/5/9/6588387/master-pizzamakers-richie-zapata-of-pizzeria-regina

https://www.chowhound.com/post/pizzeria-regina-pizza-recipe-146089

https://slice.seriouseats.com/2012/08/boston-pizzeria-regina-the-original.html

comments are somewhat interesting in the above post.

http://www.pmq.com/June-2015/Regina-Pizzeria-The-Polcari-family-segued-from-supplying-groceries-to-a-nearby-neighborhood-pizzeria-to-owning-it/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJDauNRd6J8

Pizzeria Regina also had some problems with expanding into malls, but that didn't affect the other pizzerias they owned. 

https://blog.usfoodsafety.com/2015/05/21/regina-pizzeria-parent-files-for-bankruptcy/

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 27, 2018, 11:21:11 AM
Norma,

Thank you for aggregating all of the links in your last post. I have always said and believed that you are the best searcher on the forum

Like you, I did a comprehensive search for material relevant to Pizzeria Regina. I found the first three links in your last post and included them in my posts earlier in this thread. Also, at Reply 37 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54120.msg544981;topicseen#msg544981, I provided a link to your post at the Highest butterfat mozzarella thread where you cited the three nice videos relating to PR. I did that since the videos were very relevant to PR and I wanted them to also be available on this thread for our members to see. I also found the two remaining items in your post but settled on another item that I found that referenced the actual legal document directed to the PR bankruptcy filing.

You may also have seen the following YouTube video that discussed the rivalry between Pizzeria Regina and Santarpio's. The video shows PR procedures such as were shown in other videos, but whereas the folks at PR were always laudatory and promoting their pizzas, Frank Santarpio could have cared less. I got a big laugh out of his comments. The video is at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjXvEpVRTDA

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 27, 2018, 11:42:06 AM
Pod4477,

I went back to Reply 43 where you showed the weights of the various ingredients you used to make one of your PR clones. I concluded that your dough ball weight for the 16" pizza you made is about 20.6 ounces. That translates to a thickness factor of 20.6/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.1025. That value can be adjusted up or down if you feel that your pizza crusts are thicker or thinner than a real PR pizza. Changing the quantities of ingredients will also affect the thickness factor.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 27, 2018, 01:37:30 PM
Pod4477,

I went back to Reply 43 where you showed the weights of the various ingredients you used to make one of your PR clones. I concluded that your dough ball weight for the 16" pizza you made is about 20.6 ounces. That translates to a thickness factor of 20.6/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.1025. That value can be adjusted up or down if you feel that your pizza crusts are thicker or thinner than a real PR pizza. Changing the quantities of ingredients will also affect the thickness factor.

Peter

I feel just the opposite wrt very old recipes. Grandmothers do not get enough respect imho. Most restraunteers would probably agree, and intuitively I would be inclined to agree, that grandmothers would not be good in professional kitchens from the standpoint of production work type consistency. Give me a choice of eating at a skilled grandmotherís house or a nice restaurant I would probanly accept grandmaís invitation - or more likely grandpaís, who invited me without telling her.


From a cloning standpoint, you have to deal with incomplete and inconsistent information. Actually, first as you implied, you first have to determine if you believe it. Beyond that, if the recipe truly is decades old the difference in ingredients from then to now is likely different for every ingredient that contins more than one ingredient.


I donít know if they are still open but Enoteca Maria in Queens has kind of been on my bucket list since seeing this and one other video from TGN several years ago. I love these ladies!
https://youtu.be/ixrv7dJO0WQ (https://youtu.be/ixrv7dJO0WQ)
EDIT: this video is shorter and shows more interaction between the nonas and them actually cooking. The first one above is more about wine and the concept of having the nonas cook. https://youtu.be/KRZivoThe54 (https://youtu.be/KRZivoThe54)

Just recenttly Norm mentioned a 100 year old recipe for pickles and there was an immediate clamor to get the recipe from him. We have a family cookbook put together by my mom. Things from 3 generations older than me are in it. There are some real clunkers in it but many gems too. We have appreciated having it. I especially like my grandpaís recipe for pasta fagioli, now about 100 years old. Who knows, he may have got it off the back of the beans comtainer but it got written down and passed on. Final adjustments to this and many others is ďby taste.Ē How many of us do enough lf that. I certainly try to.




Grandmas do not get enough respect, youíre right. If a place really is using a century old recipe then I applaud them, but I am always skeptical until I see it. Funny thing is my family has probably been going to PR since it opened, so I wonder the differences that have occurred in the recipe. I think the best cooking is without a recipe but I also like having consistency with my scale. Pizzashark had some comments I remember about making the dough by touch. Yes I donít believe some of the info about PR offline, but the info you guys have given has been the best.
 Norma and Peter: your links and info have been amazing. Some of those articles you found are tough to find. I forgot to reply to the bay leaf. Peter youíre right about the bay leaf and I thought it was odd them adding it. They claim they use it, but maybe they skim them out first? I keep getting either basil or bay leaves in my Braintree pizzas.

Thank you for calculating the thickness factor. Yup 584g is usually what Iíve been using for a 16Ē. In one video they say they use around a pound of dough for a 16Ē but since they can be pretty thick Iíve used a bit more. Iíve seen some pies that are very thick and others NY/Neapolitan thin. The Santarpios owner is hilarious in that video and the fact that heís never had PR, but Anthony has had Santarpios. First pic is the leaf I found, second pic you can see the color difference of the cheese pizza slices. Third is what I got. Iíve definitely gotten used to the pale color pies and actually prefer it now. You can see the blistering in the second to last pic. Do you think this is from the cold ferment? I was reading the blistering thread and it seems to be debatable quite a bit. Most places around here have a blistered crust and I always figured it was the lower temp ovens. I never noticed just how many bubbles there are on their pizza. The bubbling is pushing the cheese apart. The last pic shows good proof of their sauce and cheese construction and their oven. I keep reading about the aged specialty cheese. I wonder if itís a higher fat than Empire normally sells, and I wonder if the aging is as long or as important as they say it is. Pizzashark said 3-6 months I believe, but this would only make it sharper right?
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 27, 2018, 02:14:24 PM
You can see the blistering in the second to last pic. Do you think this is from the cold ferment? I was reading the blistering thread and it seems to be debatable quite a bit. Most places around here have a blistered crust and I always figured it was the lower temp ovens. I never noticed just how many bubbles there are on their pizza. The bubbling is pushing the cheese apart. The last pic shows good proof of their sauce and cheese construction and their oven.
Pod4477,

When you say blistering, do you mean something other than bubbles? Either way, blistering and bubbling of dough is a complicated matter, as Tom Lehmann discussed today at Reply 13 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54268.msg545326#msg545326. But if you mean large bubbles formed in the rim and sometimes elsewhere in the skin, this post discusses the matter of bubbling at:

Reply 3 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7362.msg63551;topicseen#msg63551.

In PR's case, Anthony made a point of proofing the dough. Presumably, that would discourage the forming of big bubbles.

If you really meant blistering, and especially microblistering, as can occur in profusion in the rims of crusts, I can cite you quite a bit of information on such blisters.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 27, 2018, 05:05:32 PM
Pod4477,

When you say blistering, do you mean something other than bubbles? Either way, blistering and bubbling of dough is a complicated matter, as Tom Lehmann discussed today at Reply 13 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54268.msg545326#msg545326. But if you mean large bubbles formed in the rim and sometimes elsewhere in the skin, this post discusses the matter of bubbling at:

Reply 3 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7362.msg63551;topicseen#msg63551.

In PR's case, Anthony made a point of proofing the dough. Presumably, that would discourage the forming of big bubbles.

If you really meant blistering, and especially microblistering, as can occur in profusion in the rims of crusts, I can cite you quite a bit of information on such blisters.

Peter
Yup you can see it a bit in the last picture; on the top right of the crust in the picture there are the little I believe blisters or microblisters. It seems to happen mainly in the Braintree oven, and not really in the North End one (maybe their excessive flour is why I donít see it though).  I did always think it was from the oven or oil in the dough since it seems to happen when oiling crust as well. It reminds me of the Greek pizzas in NE.
As far as the dough Iím going to try a 3 day fermentation and see if that cuts down on the bubbles in my last pizza.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 27, 2018, 05:25:27 PM
Norma,

Thank you for aggregating all of the links in your last post. I have always said and believed that you are the best searcher on the forum

Like you, I did a comprehensive search for material relevant to Pizzeria Regina. I found the first three links in your last post and included them in my posts earlier in this thread. Also, at Reply 37 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54120.msg544981;topicseen#msg544981, I provided a link to your post at the Highest butterfat mozzarella thread where you cited the three nice videos relating to PR. I did that since the videos were very relevant to PR and I wanted them to also be available on this thread for our members to see. I also found the two remaining items in your post but settled on another item that I found that referenced the actual legal document directed to the PR bankruptcy filing.

You may also have seen the following YouTube video that discussed the rivalry between Pizzeria Regina and Santarpio's. The video shows PR procedures such as were shown in other videos, but whereas the folks at PR were always laudatory and promoting their pizzas, Frank Santarpio could have cared less. I got a big laugh out of his comments. The video is at:

Peter

Peter,

Sorry if I posted links you already posted.  Wasn't really involved reading this thread till it got interesting in trying to reverse engineer/clone a pizza, and the pizza looked good.    :-D

I did not see the video you referenced discussing the rivalry between Pizzeria Regina and Santarpio's.  Got a laugh out of what was said.  :-D

Norma

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 27, 2018, 05:39:58 PM
Yup you can see it a bit in the last picture; on the top right of the crust in the picture there are the little I believe blisters or microblisters. It seems to happen mainly in the Braintree oven, and not really in the North End one (maybe their excessive flour is why I donít see it though).  I did always think it was from the oven or oil in the dough since it seems to happen when oiling crust as well. It reminds me of the Greek pizzas in NE.
As far as the dough Iím going to try a 3 day fermentation and see if that cuts down on the bubbles in my last pizza.
Pod4477,

I spent a lot of time and did a lot of research, much of it using posts in this forum, on the matter of microblistering. The place where much of this research was conducted started with Reply 1111 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg360978#msg360978. If you read several pages of posts following Reply 1111, I think you may answer for yourself how microblistering is produced, whether it is on a PR pizza or one of your own.

If you wish, to save you some reading time, you might take a look at these posts that I composed after much review and analysis of the phenomenon of microblistering:

Reply 1228 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg362301#msg362301, and

Reply 1254 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg362418#msg362418

However, you are welcome to read the material between the above posts, and elsewhere in the same thread, if you wish.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 27, 2018, 05:45:21 PM
Peter,

Sorry if I posted links you already posted.  Wasn't really involved reading this thread till it got interesting in trying to reverse engineer/clone a pizza, and the pizza looked good.    :-D

Norma
Norma,

It's no problem. And I knew that you joined the thread midstream. But when we both came up with a lot of the same material, that tells me that we did well. But you beat me to the punch when you found the best material, the videos where many of the PR procedures were discussed.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 28, 2018, 01:31:26 PM
Pod4477,

I spent a lot of time and did a lot of research, much of it using posts in this forum, on the matter of microblistering. The place where much of this research was conducted started with Reply 1111 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg360978#msg360978. If you read several pages of posts following Reply 1111, I think you may answer for yourself how microblistering is produced, whether it is on a PR pizza or one of your own.

If you wish, to save you some reading time, you might take a look at these posts that I composed after much review and analysis of the phenomenon of microblistering:

Reply 1228 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg362301#msg362301, and

Reply 1254 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg362418#msg362418

However, you are welcome to read the material between the above posts, and elsewhere in the same thread, if you wish.

Peter

Thanks Peter! I really appreciate it. I notice microblostering on a lot of local pizzas so Iíve been curious over the years. Iím also wondering, from a technical dough opening standpoint, what causes the crust in the picture below to look like that? It has little to no pronounced ridge and I see this a lot with PR. It almost seems to puff up and slope down, rather than have a pronounced raised crust line. To me it seems that itís bubbling around the inside of the crust and maybe theyíre not shaping any crust like the top guys at PR show. I have a feeling they are just flatting the dough disc with their hands and opening. One of the top PR makers talked about using his palms to make the crust indent, but I have a feeling they are skipping that step. This seems even more true after seeing some of the Braintree workers flattening the entire dough to the edges with their finger tips. The second pic is pretty flat too.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 28, 2018, 04:27:48 PM
Pod4477,

Sometimes, pizza makers will push the air in the dough as it is being formed into a skin by pushing the air from the middle of the dough skin to the outside. So, a fair amount of the fermentation gases can collect in the rim. And if the rim area is on the wide side (say, an inch or more) or if there is no sauce lock or cheese lock (such as used at Papa John's), the rim can enlarge when the pizza is baked and, as it is doing so, push everything, including toppings, away from the rim and toward the center of the pizza, resulting in a rim shape that is not uniformly round but rather down sloping as you mentioned. Of course, using more dough can allow for a bigger rim, and vice versa. The condition of the dough, including the structure of the gluten matrix and how gases are retained in the dough at the end of the fermentation period, as well as the bake protocol, can affect the way the rim forms, including its height, during the bake and also the nature of the crumb. The temperature of the dough can also be a factor, and if the dough is on the cold side when the skin is formed, and especially if the hydration of the dough is on the low side, that can lead to large bubbles being formed in the crust as the pizza is baked. The PR experts in the videos say that the dough is proofed before using to make pizzas and, if that is so, then there shouldn't be large bubbles in the crust.

Fundamentally, what you want in the dough at the time of baking is a proper balance between gas production and gas retention. This is a topic that is nicely discussed in one of my favorite sources of information on dough, theartisan.net, at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm. The relevant part you may want to read is the section called Fermentation Control. If the gas production and gas retention are out of balance when you want to make your pizzas, the end results will negatively reflect the imbalance. Sometimes, people think that they have achieved the proper balance when they show the rims of their pizzas with gigantic, irregularly shaped holes rather than a crumb with a uniform dispersion of like sized and shaped holes. In the former case, the nature of the crumb reflects a weakened gluten structure with lessened gas retention, whereas in the latter case the nature of the crumb reflects a normal gluten structure with good gas retention. Also, the crumb from the first example may be chewy whereas it can be soft in the case of the second example. Craig has spoken on this matter many times on the forum, usually in connection with Neapolitan style pizzas. It is also fair to note that both crumb structures have their devoted fans. In a way, I am making the point here that there are ways of achieving just about any desired end result.

To the above, I would add that to a certain extent how the dough is managed depends on what the pizza operator wants to have as their final product. In other words, does management want pizzas with big rims or small, flat rims? Sometimes, it really doesn't matter if the pizza makers are not given strict instructions and training on what management wants. From the photos of the PR pizzas I saw in the Google Image search, it looks like the PR pizzas can have a wide range of rim looks. Maybe that is because making large numbers of pizzas in a short period of time, as can occur when the pizzeria is being slammed, doesn't allow for strict adherence to procedures. So, there can be considerable variation in the pizzas. There can also be variations from one pizzeria to another in the same chain, possibly because of inconsistent training and/or high employee turnover.

I would think that a more ideal way of forming skins would be to form or define the rim area first and then use the fingers and palms to enlarge the skin without further touching the rim area. I think the videos do a good job of showing the latter step. Once the skin is completely formed, the sauce can be placed on the skin to within a fraction of an inch from the outer edge. The cheese(s) can then be applied in a way as to overlap the outer edge of the sauce (the cheese lock), followed by adding the toppings so that they are distributed more at the outer part of the rim than at the center. If necessary, the rim can be tweaked a bit after dressing to reform it so that it is of the desired size. Neapolitan pizza makers are expert on this technique.

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 28, 2018, 09:52:28 PM
Pod4477,

Sometimes, pizza makers will push the air in the dough as it is being formed into a skin by pushing the air from the middle of the dough skin to the outside. So, a fair amount of the fermentation gases can collect in the rim. And if the rim area is on the wide side (say, an inch or more) or if there is no sauce lock or cheese lock (such as used at Papa John's), the rim can enlarge when the pizza is baked and, as it is doing so, push everything, including toppings, away from the rim and toward the center of the pizza, resulting in a rim shape that is not uniformly round but rather down sloping as you mentioned. The condition of the dough, including the structure of the gluten matrix and how gases are retained in the dough at the end of the fermentation period, as well as the bake protocol, can affect the way the rim forms, including its height, during the bake and also the nature of the crumb. The temperature of the dough can also be a factor, and if the dough is on the cold side when the skin is formed, and especially if the hydration of the dough is on the low side, that can lead to large bubbles being formed in the crust as the pizza is baked. The PR experts in the videos say that the dough is proofed before using to make pizzas and, if that is so, then there shouldn't be large bubbles in the crust.

Fundamentally, what you want in the dough at the time of baking is a proper balance between gas production and gas retention. This is a topic that is nicely discussed in one of my favorite sources of information on dough, theartisan.net, at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm. The relevant part you may want to read is the section called Fermentation Control. If the gas production and gas retention are out of balance when you want to make your pizzas, the end results will negatively reflect the imbalance. Sometimes, people think that they have achieved the proper balance when they show the rims of their pizzas with gigantic, irregularly shaped holes rather than a crumb with a uniform dispersion of like sized and shaped holes. In the former case, the nature of the crumb reflects a weakened gluten structure with lessened gas retention, whereas in the latter case the nature of the crumb reflects a normal gluten structure with good gas retention. Also, the crumb from the first example may be chewy whereas it can be soft in the case of the second example. Craig has spoken on this matter many times on the forum, usually in connection with Neapolitan style pizzas. It is also fair to note that both crumb structures have their devoted fans. In a way, I am making the point here that there are ways of achieving just about any desired end result.

To the above, I would add that to a certain extent how the dough is managed depends on what the pizza operator wants to have as their final product. In other words, does management want pizzas with big rims or small, flat rims? Sometimes, it really doesn't matter if the pizza makers are not given strict instructions and training on what management wants. From the photos of the PR pizzas I saw in the Google Image search, it looks like the PR pizzas can have a wide range of rim looks. Maybe that is because making large numbers of pizzas in a short period of time, as can occur when the pizzeria is being slammed, doesn't allow for strict adherence to procedures. So, there can be considerable variation in the pizzas. There can also be variations from one pizzeria to another in the same chain, possibly because of inconsistent training and/or high employee turnover.

I would think that a more ideal way of forming skins would be to form or define the rim area first and then use the fingers and palms to enlarge the skin without further touching the rim area. I think the videos do a good job of showing the latter step. Once the skin is completely formed, the sauce can be placed on the skin to within a fraction of an inch from the outer edge. The cheese(s) can then be applied in a way as to overlap the outer edge of the sauce (the cheese lock), followed by adding the toppings so that they are distributed more at the outer part of the rim than at the center. If necessary, the rim can be tweaked a bit after dressing to reform it so that it is of the desired size. Neapolitan pizza makers are expert on this technique.

Peter

Awesome information thank you! Exactly what I was looking for. Iíll check out that site for sure. I need to learn all I can and this forum, and you guys are amazing. I made another pizza tonight and it was really good. I compared mine to Reginas in shape and taste. Pictures are below. Still messing with temps and hydration. Iím beginning to think the oven is really the reason their pizzas are so good. Their cheese is definitely greasy and buttery; canít figure that out exactly, but tasting the cheese and the crust, there is something lacking in mine. I know their oven must be many years old in Braintree and since I go there the most, I use it as my the baseline. Itís tough to explain that taste and smell, but how much do you think the gas ovens in NY style pizzerias add to the flavor? I would almost call it a sweet and savory smell/taste. Maybe they are using Romano too, but the Braintree oven is pretty old. Obviously if itís flavoring the cheese it would be from the air and not the stones. Iíve noticed the smell/taste and it seems to come from gas ovens mainly.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Brent-r on September 28, 2018, 10:27:12 PM
I went to the Artisan web site and have read some of both part 1 and part 2 on the yeast and the question came to me.  If the yeast
makes CO2 from both respiration  ie taking in oxygen and dining on sugars,   would it help if the water was aerated for example with
a shot with an immersion blender ???  I don't think there is much oxygen in our well water or in most folks municipal water.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 29, 2018, 03:24:04 AM
I went to the Artisan web site and have read some of both part 1 and part 2 on the yeast and the question came to me.  If the yeast
makes CO2 from both respiration  ie taking in oxygen and dining on sugars,   would it help if the water was aerated for example with
a shot with an immersion blender ???  I don't think there is much oxygen in our well water or in most folks municipal water.

I never thought of that, very good question! Iím curious to know as well from some of the more knowledgeable people on here. I did a Romano and Mozz test tonight and I can see it being Romano added or another grating cheese as was mentioned. My Romano seems a bit too salty though, but delicious. I guess I should post where Iím at so far with my test cooks compared to Reginaís.

Dough: I feel that Iím getting close following Peterís cold ferment instructions. I tried it with no oil added tonight and it did taste close, but I still feel they may be using cottonseed oil, but who knows. The crumb is close enough for me, although I may want to drop the hydration a bit. Any thoughts to what they may be using? Iím guessing a typical NY hydration. Iíve been using 60%. I was just reading the comments on Serious Eats about the Greek Pizza and the guy whoís family owned a Greek pizza shop said they used 50-55% with oil, sugar, and ADY.  Seems very similar to what Iím trying to do, and Iíve been making Greek/NE buffalo chicken calzones during the week, a lot lately.

Crust: while my crust is very good due to using All Trumps and a better dough, itís still tough to recreate the crispy Maillard reactioned crust of the Braintree location. I know they cook at 485į and since I donít have a deck oven itís tough. Of course, there is the home oven with a baking steel, and the Ooni with lump charcoal did come very close.  Iím still wondering if more malted barley is added but from the info given in here and the other thread, it doesnít seem like it. Iíll have to try and get my crust as crispy as theirs and see if itís just the Miallard giving it that cereal like taste.

Sauce: getting close on the sauce just using canned ground tomatoes with a bit of Romano added, and bay leaf to try out. Their tomatoes look darker though and have almost a less bright/fresh flavor to them. They almost remind me of cooked sauce. Itís almost if I compared a sauce cooked for 1 hour vs 5 hours having a bit deeper, saltier (maybe from the cheese) flavor compared to a fresher 1 hour cooked sauce. Both are awesome though and Iím happy with the sauce, but will tweak it a bit.

Cheese: still canít figure it out. I feel that it blows away every other cheese pizza around here as far as the cheese is concerned. The smell has become one of my favorite smells and Iím guessing thatís mainly from the butterfat (since cheddar gave me that smell). There has to be a ton of butterfat in their Mozz and I do get a flavor hit of something I canít put my finger on. It could be a grating cheese for sure, but maybe itís just from the oven. I feel like Iíve tasted that flavor from some of the NY style places around here, but wasnít present in my Papa Ginoís and Bertuccis tests. Do you think the deck oven can be imparting a certain flavor on the cheese or is it a grating cheese that similar places are using? Iíve noted La Scala in Randolph to have a similar cheese taste on their chicken parm and I believe Ernestoís does too. I wonder if the common denominator is the old gas ovens and not the cheese.

Semolina: I know that Reginaís uses semolina on the peels, and I believe that is what lends to that sweet smell Iím noticing on the bottom of the crust.  I wonder if all semolina has the same taste, as Iím using Caputo semolina. I remember this place in Holbrook called Enzos gave me some semolina and they had a pretty old gas oven. Their pizza did remind me of PR a lot and they were a big help teaching me. I wish they were still around today. Natalieís that moved in next also showed me how to do things a bit too. I feel that the oven definitely imparts a big flavor, and also all three places used semolina. Hmm.

Sorry this was so long but I figured Iíd compare it all into one post. Thanks guys for all your help. I am just a home cook who loves making pizza, so Iím just trying to learn from being on here and asking around at different Pizzerias how they do it.

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 29, 2018, 08:26:52 AM
Awesome information thank you! Exactly what I was looking for. Iíll check out that site for sure. I need to learn all I can and this forum, and you guys are amazing. I made another pizza tonight and it was really good. I compared mine to Reginas in shape and taste. Pictures are below. Still messing with temps and hydration. Iím beginning to think the oven is really the reason their pizzas are so good. Their cheese is definitely greasy and buttery; canít figure that out exactly, but tasting the cheese and the crust, there is something lacking in mine. I know their oven must be many years old in Braintree and since I go there the most, I use it as my the baseline. Itís tough to explain that taste and smell, but how much do you think the gas ovens in NY style pizzerias add to the flavor? I would almost call it a sweet and savory smell/taste. Maybe they are using Romano too, but the Braintree oven is pretty old. Obviously if itís flavoring the cheese it would be from the air and not the stones. Iíve noticed the smell/taste and it seems to come from gas ovens mainly.

Pod4477,

The ovens they use at the Pizzeria Regina's can have a difference compared to using home oven.  Did find a video from PaulVvideo that shows some more how they make their pizzas, ( shows how partly opened dough balls sit on the right side).  Explains how the oven is cleaned out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZrK8YsGt3I

From my own experiences in baking in different deck ovens, if using the same formulation for dough, same amount of days fermentation, same sauce and cheese, same topping, all of the deck ovens I tried when competing baked the pizzas differently than my market oven.  That was an eye opener for me.  Even my Blackstone will baked a pizza differently if using everything the same. 

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 29, 2018, 09:42:52 AM
"Special natural yeast" may just be marketing. Depending on who you ask, ANY yeast could fall into that category.

I'd also add that it's been my observation over the years that 99.99% of the time I've seen the term "beer yeast" or "brewers yeast" is used in a baking or pizza context (outside of this forum) it's a colloquialism and the yeast is question is nothing more than commercial baker's yeast.

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Brent-r on September 29, 2018, 10:14:03 AM
Every time is see natural on a product I feel like someone is trying to scam me.
Arsenic and mercury are natural too.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: foreplease on September 29, 2018, 10:30:15 AM
That is an interesting video, Norma. The pizza does not look especially great to me but everyoneís tastes and passions run differently. There is really no telling without tasting it. I would like to try it.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 29, 2018, 10:59:24 AM
That is an interesting video, Norma. The pizza does not look especially great to me but everyoneís tastes and passions run differently. There is really no telling without tasting it. I would like to try it.

Tony,

I would like to try it too.  You are right that everyone's tastes and passions run differently when it come to pizzas.   :) 

He said it is about a 1lb. dough ball for a 16" pizza. 

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 29, 2018, 04:02:27 PM
Awesome information thank you! Exactly what I was looking for. Iíll check out that site for sure. I need to learn all I can and this forum, and you guys are amazing. I made another pizza tonight and it was really good. I compared mine to Reginas in shape and taste. Pictures are below. Still messing with temps and hydration. Iím beginning to think the oven is really the reason their pizzas are so good. Their cheese is definitely greasy and buttery; canít figure that out exactly, but tasting the cheese and the crust, there is something lacking in mine. I know their oven must be many years old in Braintree and since I go there the most, I use it as my the baseline. Itís tough to explain that taste and smell, but how much do you think the gas ovens in NY style pizzerias add to the flavor? I would almost call it a sweet and savory smell/taste. Maybe they are using Romano too, but the Braintree oven is pretty old. Obviously if itís flavoring the cheese it would be from the air and not the stones. Iíve noticed the smell/taste and it seems to come from gas ovens mainly.
Pod4477,

On the matter of the ovens, I would echo what Norma said. When I tried to reverse engineer and clone pizzas of others, even when I knew the ingredients and had studied nutrition information and felt that I had a workable dough formulation, in most cases I was not able to adequately replicate the real pizzas to my personal satisfaction. Part of the problem was that I had never sampled some of the real pizzas but I could still tell that my oven wasn't a match for the commercial ovens that the pizza places used. These experiences taught me that there had to be the right marriage between the dough formulation and the oven.

From Norma's most recently cited video, it appears that PR has different ovens at different locations. And from other videos, the temperatures used to bake the pizzas do not seem to be the same for all locations. Between different ovens and different oven temperatures and bake times, the pizzas are likely to be different too.

With respect to the effect of the oven on the cheese, while I do not think that gas fired ovens that make NY style pizzas add a flavor component to the cheese, from what other, more qualified members have reported, it seems that high oven temperatures can really cause the cheeses to "boil" and result in greater release of fats from the cheese. So, that may be what you are tasting. A home oven is no match for a commercial oven with its much higher btu's and perhaps will cook the cheese differently as a result. Whether that is true of your Ooni oven I cannot say.

In your post, you indicated that the post contained photos of your last pizza but I did not see the pictures you mentioned.

I also took note in the most recent video that the weight of dough used at PR to make a 16" pizza is "about a pound". That would translate to a thickness factor of 16/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.07958. That value is in line with some NY style pizzas but somewhat on the low side.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 29, 2018, 04:23:27 PM
"Special natural yeast" may just be marketing. Depending on who you ask, ANY yeast could fall into that category.

I'd also add that it's been my observation over the years that 99.99% of the time I've seen the term "beer yeast" or "brewers yeast" is used in a baking or pizza context (outside of this forum) it's a colloquialism and the yeast is question is nothing more than commercial baker's yeast.
Craig,

I suspect that you may be right. I went down the beer yeast rabbit hole when a member posted several years ago that Pizzeria Regina used a yeast from Anheuser Busch. I looked into that possibility and researched the matter online and by phone calls but I came up empty. Then there were reports--actually quite a few--that said that PR used sourdough. But I could not confirm that either, and I also had doubts that a sourdough approach could be used effectively at a commissary serving close to twenty locations. And when Scott (scott r) said that he had been told by someone at PR that they used fresh yeast, I went on a search to see if I could find a fresh yeast that is "special". The best I could come up with was a fresh yeast of a special strain from Fleischmann's.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it turns out the PR uses a high gluten flour (as scott r was told), water, salt, fresh yeast and maybe some oil (maybe cottonseed). When I looked at all of the videos cited in this thread, what stuck out was how the videos were so self laudatory--more like carefully orchestrated infomercials. In the comment section of the last video, one person said the PR was arrogant in saying that their pizza was the best pizza in the world. But like most comment sections to videos, the opinions varied across the board, both favorable and unfavorable.

Peter


Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 29, 2018, 05:37:54 PM
Craig,

I suspect that you may be right. I went down the beer yeast rabbit hole when a member posted several years ago that Pizzeria Regina used a yeast from Anheuser Busch. I looked into that possibility and researched the matter online and by phone calls but I came up empty. Then there were reports--actually quite a few--that said that PR used sourdough. But I could not confirm that either, and I also had doubts that a sourdough approach could be used effectively at a commissary serving close to twenty locations. And when Scott (scott r) said that he had been told by someone at PR that they used fresh yeast, I went on a search to see if I could find a fresh yeast that is "special". The best I could come up with was a fresh yeast of a special strain from Fleischmann's.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it turns out the PR uses a high gluten flour (as scott r was told), water, salt, fresh yeast and maybe some oil (maybe cottonseed). When I looked at all of the videos cited in this thread, what stuck out was how the videos were so self laudatory--more like carefully orchestrated infomercials. In the comment section of the last video, one person said the PR was arrogant in saying that their pizza was the best pizza in the world. But like most comment sections to videos, the opinions varied across the board, both favorable and unfavorable.

Peter

I doubt almost all folks who talk about pizza. scott r and you are two of the very few I don't.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 29, 2018, 06:06:16 PM
Craig,

Thank you for the kind remarks. I also agree with you about Scott. If anyone goes back and reads Scottís posts when he joined the forum, they will see that he was far ahead of the crowd even then.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 29, 2018, 10:19:35 PM
Pod4477,

On the matter of the ovens, I would echo what Norma said. When I tried to reverse engineer and clone pizzas of others, even when I knew the ingredients and had studied nutrition information and felt that I had a workable dough formulation, in most cases I was not able to adequately replicate the real pizzas to my personal satisfaction. Part of the problem was that I had never sampled some of the real pizzas but I could still tell that my oven wasn't a match for the commercial ovens that the pizza places used. These experiences taught me that there had to be the right marriage between the dough formulation and the oven.

From Norma's most recently cited video, it appears that PR has different ovens at different locations. And from other videos, the temperatures used to bake the pizzas do not seem to be the same for all locations. Between different ovens and different oven temperatures and bake times, the pizzas are likely to be different too.

With respect to the effect of the oven on the cheese, while I do not think that gas fired ovens that make NY style pizzas add a flavor component to the cheese, from what other, more qualified members have reported, it seems that high oven temperatures can really cause the cheeses to "boil" and result in greater release of fats from the cheese. So, that may be what you are tasting. A home oven is no match for a commercial oven with its much higher btu's and perhaps will cook the cheese differently as a result. Whether that is true of your Ooni oven I cannot say.

In your post, you indicated that the post contained photos of your last pizza but I did not see the pictures you mentioned.

I also took note in the most recent video that the weight of dough used at PR to make a 16" pizza is "about a pound". That would translate to a thickness factor of 16/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.07958. That value is in line with some NY style pizzas but somewhat on the low side.

Peter

Very good information as always, thank you. I feel it indeed can be very tough to replicate the commercial ovens. Sorry about that; Iíll try to find pictures of my last bake. Ive always felt a pound was a bit low so Iíve been using a little more. Your calculation is on point! Iíve taken some side by side pictures of mine vs PR and a local sub shopís NY style pizza vs PR. I noticed some things today when comparing the sub shop vs PR.

1.  PRís crust has a ton of micro blisters on the top crust and the bottom crust, while the sub shopís did not.
2.  PRís crumb had that great tint to it, tlwhole the sub shopís was just white.
3.  PRís entire crust had the signature wheatyness to it, much like a cereal taste, while the sub shopís was   
     good, but lacking any wheatyness. I believe this is due to the Maillard reaction, at least in part since PRís   
     crust is clearly browner and darker, as seen in the photos.
4.  PRís cheese is much saltier and cheesier then I thought and a deep red color, while the sub shopís was a
     similarly color but with garlic, and less added in the middle of the pizza.
5.  PR has to be using a grated cheese in addition to the Mozzarella. Iím assuming itís Romano because it isnít
     very sharp, and we know they use it in the sauce. The Sub Shopís definitely had cheddar, but Iím not sure i
     if it had mozz blended too.

Summary: both pizzas I believe are cooked in a gas oven. I believe the sub shop just uses a typical deck oven while Braintree is using a bigger gas oven more similar to the North End oven. Both pizzas are very good, but the sub shop is making more of a Greek/NY style mix, while Regina is making more Boston/NY style. The Sub shopís crust I believe is a Greek dough cooked on the brick oven floor, rather than in a pan. Oven wise I didnít notice much flavor added to the sub shopís pizza vs my Uuni Pro, other than a more typical crunchy NY crust. But, the North End doesnít come out las dark and brown, and much more in line with what my Uuni does. Iíve been testing out the new gas attachment for the Uuni pro, so some of my pics donít have the crust Iím trying to get when I used lump charcoal. I was able to really get the feel of the North End location using lump charcoal and using only heat with no flame around 500-600į. I think my KA flour was the reason it didnít taste right, because I noticed the better flavor immediately with All Trumps. I wonder why Regina keeps tasting different crust and cheese wise compared to these other places. Next, I need to test other shops around here.

First pic is mine vs Regina with mine on the bottom. Second pic is PR on the right and sub shopís on the left. Third pic is sub shop crumb on left and PR on right. 4th pic is PR crust on left and Sub Shop on right.
PR can be summarized as: salty cheese filled sauce, rich cheese, and wheaty crust. Now to figure out why.  Rest of the pics are PR.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on September 30, 2018, 05:47:50 AM
My latest guess: maybe it is just the aging of the mozzarella and that meshing with the Romano in the sauce gives it a certain flavor. I certainly did taste a lot of Romano in the sauce.  That could explain why the mozz tastes different. Since I canít blend Romano at the canning stage, maybe I should heat up the sauce with Romano to blend the cheese into the tomatoes better, or maybe not. The dough/crust is still a bit of a puzzle though, as that was the intent of starting this thread in the first place. I need to compare Ernestoís side by side with PR.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 01, 2018, 04:41:16 AM
Since this post was created about the Maillard reaction I figured Iíd provide an update. I did another test bake last night, inside, using my baking steel. Instead of using the broiler I decided to set it to 485į on the very bottom rack to try and simulate abs best I could Braintreeís oven. I achieved a very nice Maillard reaction on all parts of the crust. When I tasted it, it tasted like PR. The crust even had microblisters like PR. I cold fermented cottonseed oil, flour, water, salt, and IDY. Iíll use fresh or ADY next time but I had run out and figured Iíd test IDY from saf. The Maillard reaction from my bread tests two weeks ago tasted nothing like PR, and Iíve narrowed it down to changing the KA Bread flour for All Trumps. King Arthur flours have what Iíve noticed to be a strange smell and taste (maybe the malt they use). All Trumps is very close to what they use (maybe they use ADM) and I finally got that wheat cereal taste from the most browned parts. I havenít tried the North End location in a while, and I donít believe they are getting the same browned crust. Their crust is crunchy, but soft, with a ton of caked on flour. It just doesnít seem to me that they get a lot of the Maillard reaction browned crust, even though I like their crust more than Braintreeís. Iíve tried to replicate the caked in flour but I never leave in in the flour long enough/Iíve been trying different opening dough techniques so I work the flour in more. Also this test was a longer bake so I was trying to brown the crust anyway, but my best cakes on flour came from refrigerating dough in flour in the fridge. Iíve come to love the caked on flour, but you need around 600į with no flame to keep the flour caked on such as PR does in the North End only.

Pictures are from my test bake last night. The sauce and cheese were close, but after putting some Romano slices on top, I believe I need to bled some into the sauce for sure, this may be what Iím tasting in the cheese. After separating the sauce and cheese from a PR pizza, I noticed that a lot of cheese flavor is concentrated in the sauce too. This was more of a baseline test of 7/11 tomatoes and Galbani LM WMM.

The reason Iím getting closer is because of your guys, so thank you! I also noticed PR (or any pizza) tastes better to me after sitting for a while, much like any food. I usually compare pizzas after sitting for the same 10 minutes.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 01, 2018, 08:32:39 PM
Pod4477,

Over the past day or so, I have been thinking about what kind of clone PR dough I might devise if I were to take into account what scott r (Scott), Pizza Shark and other members have said, as well as what we may have learned from the videos in this thread featuring employees at PR. As part of my research, I searched the forum for all posts mentioning Pizzeria Regina. There were 130 posts. But what jumped out at me as I neared the end of my review of the posts was a post by Steve, the owner of this forum, that mentioned a recipe and related instructions that Pizza Shark posted at the PMQ Think Tank (PMQTT) way back in 2003 and that sounded a lot like a PR dough. Steve's post is at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=389.msg3291#msg3291

Unfortunately, the direct link to the PMQ Think Tank no longer works. I'm pretty certain that the post went dead when PMQTT changed its forum software many years ago. And none of the old posts were archived at the Wayback Machine. I was hoping to see the PMQTT post to see if Pizza Shark said that it was the PR dough recipe or some version of it.

Nonetheless, I converted his recipe to baker's percent format. In so doing, I considered all of the ingredients to be weights, not volumes. I also took Baker's yeast (aka beer yeast) to mean fresh yeast, for reasons previously discussed in this thread. And since none of the dough calculating tools that I use include cottonseed oil, I used plain vegetable (soybean) oil as a proxy and adjusted the volume measurements. Using the expanded dough calculating tool at https://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html, I came up with the following:

High Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (52.5%):
CY (0.625%):
Diamond Crystal Salt (1.875%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Cottonseed Oil (5%):
Total (160%):
4536 g  |  160 oz | 10 lbs
2381.4 g  |  84 oz | 5.25 lbs
28.35 g | 1 oz | 0.06 lbs |
85.05 g | 3 oz | 0.19 lbs | 8.34 tbsp | 0.52 cups
226.8 g | 8 oz | 0.5 lbs | 16.65 18.9 tbsp | 1.04 1.18 cups
7257.6 g | 256 oz | 16 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

I was hoping to see if a weight was given for a single dough ball. But I did not see it. But if a pound is right, as mentioned in one of the videos, that would mean that the recipe is for sixteen pizzas. The corresponding thickness factor would be 16/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.07958. That is in NY style pizza category.

You will note that the hydration value comes to 52.5%. Most high gluten flours have a rated absorption rate of about 63%. However, the cottonseed oil also has a wetting effect on the flour, so if we add 52.5 and 5, we get a total of 57.5%. I think that value would work with a high gluten flour. However, it is possible that the water is recited by volume rather than weight. If that is the case, then the hydration value becomes 54.8%. Adding the 5% cottonseed oil, we get 59.8%. That would make for a slightly wetter dough than when using 52.5%. Changing the hydration value will also have the effect of increasing the total dough batch weight and the values of the other ingredients, albeit only slightly. So, if you would like that modified baker's percents version, let me know.

You will also note that the sauce recipe is given in Pizza Shark's post that sounds a lot like the PR sauce.

Peter


Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 01, 2018, 10:12:52 PM
Pod4477,

Over the past day or so, I have been thinking about what kind of clone PR dough I might devise if I were to take into account what scott r (Scott), Pizza Shark and other members have said, as well as what we may have learned from the videos in this thread featuring employees at PR. As part of my research, I searched the forum for all posts mentioning Pizzeria Regina. There were 130 posts. But what jumped out at me as I neared the end of my review of the posts was a post by Steve, the owner of this forum, that mentioned a recipe and related instructions that Pizza Shark posted at the PMQ Think Tank (PMQTT) way back in 2003 and that sounded a lot like a PR dough. Steve's post is at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=389.msg3291#msg3291

Unfortunately, the direct link to the PMQ Think Tank no longer works. I'm pretty certain that the post went dead when PMQTT changed its forum software many years ago. And none of the old posts were archived at the Wayback Machine. I was hoping to see the PMQTT post to see if Pizza Shark said that it was the PR dough recipe or some version of it.

Nonetheless, I converted his recipe to baker's percent format. In so doing, I considered all of the ingredients to be weights, not volumes. I also took Baker's yeast (aka beer yeast) to mean fresh yeast, for reasons previously discussed in this thread. And since none of the dough calculating tools that I use include cottonseed oil, I used plain vegetable (soybean) oil as a proxy and adjusted the volume measurements. Using the expanded dough calculating tool at https://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html, I came up with the following:

High Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (52.5%):
CY (0.625%):
Diamond Crystal Salt (1.875%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Cottonseed Oil (5%):
Total (160%):
4536 g  |  160 oz | 10 lbs
2381.4 g  |  84 oz | 5.25 lbs
28.35 g | 1 oz | 0.06 lbs |
85.05 g | 3 oz | 0.19 lbs | 8.34 tbsp | 0.52 cups
226.8 g | 8 oz | 0.5 lbs | 16.65 18.9 tbsp | 1.04 1.18 cups
7257.6 g | 256 oz | 16 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

I was hoping to see if a weight was given for a single dough ball. But I did not see it. But if a pound is right, as mentioned in one of the videos, that would mean that the recipe is for sixteen pizzas. The corresponding thickness factor would be 16/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.07958. That is in NY style pizza category.

You will note that the hydration value comes to 52.5%. Most high gluten flours have a rated absorption rate of about 63%. However, the cottonseed oil also has a wetting effect on the flour, so if we add 52.5 and 5, we get a total of 57.5%. I think that value would work with a high gluten flour. However, it is possible that the water is recited by volume rather than weight. If that is the case, then the hydration value becomes 54.8%. Adding the 5% cottonseed oil, we get 59.8%. That would make for a slightly wetter dough than when using 52.5%. Changing the hydration value will also have the effect of increasing the total dough batch weight and the values of the other ingredients, albeit only slightly. So, if you would like that modified baker's percents version, let me know.

You will also note that the sauce recipe is given in Pizza Shark's post that sounds a lot like the PR sauce.

Peter

Awesome work Peter thank you! I was trying to find this months ago and I was going to ask you guys about using the cottonseed oil in relation to hydration percentage. So is it better to use the .625% CY instead of .20%-.30%?  I also got some of their cheese tonight and itís definitely Empire Mozz. BUT, it seemed saltier and butterier than my Empire. Itís amazing as both tasted like the butter flavor you get from the microwave popcorn, but theirs tasted like it had more of it. The color was the same though so I doubt theyíre aging it at all. It didnít taste sharper either. This explains why my cheese never had the same intense butter smell and grease. I doubt itís the oven because my melt tests were using a microwave and I noticed differences. I believe the flavor of the pizza comes mainly from the butterfat and the sauce.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 02, 2018, 10:50:44 AM
Awesome work Peter thank you! I was trying to find this months ago and I was going to ask you guys about using the cottonseed oil in relation to hydration percentage. So is it better to use the .625% CY instead of .20%-.30%?  I also got some of their cheese tonight and itís definitely Empire Mozz. BUT, it seemed saltier and butterier than my Empire. Itís amazing as both tasted like the butter flavor you get from the microwave popcorn, but theirs tasted like it had more of it. The color was the same though so I doubt theyíre aging it at all. It didnít taste sharper either. This explains why my cheese never had the same intense butter smell and grease. I doubt itís the oven because my melt tests were using a microwave and I noticed differences. I believe the flavor of the pizza comes mainly from the butterfat and the sauce.
Pod4477,

I don't believe that I have ever tried cottonseed oil and I plan to check out my local supermarket to see if it is offered there (possibly under the vegetable oil name) but I was under the impression that it has a mild, more or less neutral flavor. However, I have also heard it described as having a nut-like flavor, so maybe using it at 5% will make its flavor stand out more. As you know, Anthony said in one of the PR videos that they do not use any oil in their dough. Maybe back in about 2003 they used oil but no longer do. More on this option below.

With respect to the amount of fresh yeast, you will note that Pizza Shark said that the dough could be used after three days of cold fermentation. We don't know the operating temperature of Pizza Shark's refrigerator, but if we look at Craig's chart at Reply 188 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26831.msg349349.html#msg349349, something around 0.60-0.70% fresh yeast looks about right. The 0.20-0.30% fresh yeast that I mentioned also came from Craig's chart and was predicated on a six day cold fermentation period. Since it was mentioned in one of the PR videos that the dough had up to a six day fermentation window, that is the window I would shoot for. To do that, one could use the specified amount of fresh yeast (0.625%) but use colder than normal water temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature below 70 degrees F. Alternatively, the fresh yeast could be added last in the mixing cycle, not earlier and without any prehydration. Both of these measures would have the effect of slowing down the rate of fermentation such that the dough can make it out to six days. Another reason I favor six days is to keep the residual sugars down, which would mean a lighter crust color, but also to try to achieve a lot of microblisters in the finished crust. Of course, the type of oven used and the bake protocol used can also be a factor in creating microblistering. When I researched the posts on the forum dealing with microblistering, I found that long fermentations and certain oven configurations were the dominant causes of microblistering.

Out of curiosity, I went back to the expanded dough calculating tool at https://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html, and scaled the recipe I posted down to two dough balls, each weighing one pound, to see what one might use in a home setting. The high gluten flour might be a bleached and bromated All Trumps flour, or maybe even better, an ADM flour, which was mentioned in one of the earlier posts in this thread. This is what I got:

High Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (52.5%):
CY (0.625%):
Diamond Crystal Salt (1.875%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Cottonseed Oil (5%):
Total (160%):
Single Ball:
567 g  |  20 oz | 1.25 lbs
297.68 g  |  10.5 oz | 0.66 lbs
3.54 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs |
10.63 g | 0.38 oz | 0.02 lbs | 3.13 tsp | 1.04 tbsp
28.35 g | 1 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.24 7.09 tsp | 2.08 2.36 tbsp
907.2 g | 32 oz | 2 lbs | TF = N/A
453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs
Note: No bowl residue compensation; nominal thickness factor = 0.07958

I then decided to repeat the formulation but without any oil, and increasing the hydration value to 63%-5% = 58%. That is a value that is very common among commercial pizzerias in NYC that make the NY style of pizza. The thickness factor of 0.07958 would also be a value that can be used for the NY style. This is what the modified recipe looks like:

High Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (58%):
CY (0.625%):
Diamond Crystal Salt (1.875%):
Total (160.5%):
Single Ball:
565.23 g  |  19.94 oz | 1.25 lbs
327.84 g  |  11.56 oz | 0.72 lbs
3.53 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs |
10.6 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 3.12 tsp | 1.04 tbsp
907.2 g | 32 oz | 2 lbs | TF = N/A
453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs
Note: No bowl residue compensation; nominal thickness factor = 0.07958

I should also add that I doubt that PR used the dough preparation and management methods that Pizza Shark discussed in his PMQTT post. Maybe Pizza Shark used it in a home setting but in a commissary it is more likely that the dough preparatioin and management would have been much more streamlined.

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 02, 2018, 03:10:03 PM
Pod4477,

I don't believe that I have ever tried cottonseed oil and I plan to check out my local supermarket to see if it is offered there (possibly under the vegetable oil name) but I was under the impression that it has a mild, more or less neutral flavor. However, I have also heard it described as having a nut-like flavor, so maybe using it at 5% will make its flavor stand out more. As you know, Anthony said in one of the PR videos that they do not use any oil in their dough. Maybe back in about 2003 they used oil but no longer do. More on this option below.

With respect to the amount of fresh yeast, you will note that Pizza Shark said that the dough could be used after three days of cold fermentation. We don't know the operating temperature of Pizza Shark's refrigerator, but if we look at Craig's chart at Reply 188 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26831.msg349349.html#msg349349, something around 0.60-0.70% fresh yeast looks about right. The 0.20-0.30% fresh yeast that I mentioned also came from Craig's chart and was predicated on a six day cold fermentation period. Since it was mentioned in one of the PR videos that the dough had up to a six day fermentation window, that is the window I would shoot for. To do that, one could use the specified amount of fresh yeast (0.625%) but use colder than normal water temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature below 70 degrees F. Alternatively, the fresh yeast could be added last in the mixing cycle, not earlier and without any prehydration. Both of these measures would have the effect of slowing down the rate of fermentation such that the dough can make it out to six days. Another reason I favor six days is to keep the residual sugars down, which would mean a lighter crust color, but also to try to achieve a lot of microblisters in the finished crust. Of course, the type of oven used and the bake protocol used can also be a factor in creating microblistering. When I researched the posts on the forum dealing with microblistering, I found that long fermentations and certain oven configurations were the dominant causes of microblistering.

Out of curiosity, I went back to the expanded dough calculating tool at https://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html, and scaled the recipe I posted down to two dough balls, each weighing one pound, to see what one might use in a home setting. The high gluten flour might be a bleached and bromated All Trumps flour, or maybe even better, an ADM flour, which was mentioned in one of the earlier posts in this thread. This is what I got:

High Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (52.5%):
CY (0.625%):
Diamond Crystal Salt (1.875%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Cottonseed Oil (5%):
Total (160%):
Single Ball:
567 g  |  20 oz | 1.25 lbs
297.68 g  |  10.5 oz | 0.66 lbs
3.54 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs |
10.63 g | 0.38 oz | 0.02 lbs | 3.13 tsp | 1.04 tbsp
28.35 g | 1 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.24 7.09 tsp | 2.08 2.36 tbsp
907.2 g | 32 oz | 2 lbs | TF = N/A
453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs
Note: No bowl residue compensation; nominal thickness factor = 0.07958

I then decided to repeat the formulation but without any oil, and increasing the hydration value to 63%-5% = 58%. That is a value that is very common among commercial pizzerias in NYC that make the NY style of pizza. The thickness factor of 0.07958 would also be a value that can be used for the NY style. This is what the modified recipe looks like:

High Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (58%):
CY (0.625%):
Diamond Crystal Salt (1.875%):
Total (160.5%):
Single Ball:
565.23 g  |  19.94 oz | 1.25 lbs
327.84 g  |  11.56 oz | 0.72 lbs
3.53 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs |
10.6 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 3.12 tsp | 1.04 tbsp
907.2 g | 32 oz | 2 lbs | TF = N/A
453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs
Note: No bowl residue compensation; nominal thickness factor = 0.07958

I should also add that I doubt that PR used the dough preparation and management methods that Pizza Shark discussed in his PMQTT post. Maybe Pizza Shark used it in a home setting but in a commissary it is more likely that the dough preparatioin and management would have been much more streamlined.

Peter

I had never used cottonseed oil before, but figured Iíd try it. It definitely has a more neutral, but wonderful flavor, compared to that of olive or vegetable oil. I love the flavors of olive or vegetable oil, but for pizza dough I prefer cottonseed. It has a unique smell to it that reminds me of Reginaís Dough and other placeís doughs. I did two doughs: one with cottonseed oil and one without. I could smell the difference and taste the difference too, although it was tough to figure out if PR is using it. Iím guessing they donít just from a cost standpoint as well, and because of that video claiming they donít. I got mine though on Amazon since I couldnít find it anywhere around here. Itís the nut-ola cottonseed oil https://www.amazon.com/Nut-Ola-Cottonseed-Oil-48/dp/B00LITS7PC/ref=pd_aw_sim_325_2/131-6843465-8698760?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=3V3D95Y6N4HDB8943NFR

Thank you again as you do amazing work! So using .625% yeast would normally be used for 3 day fermentation, but when using up to 6 days, it would be wise to use cold water and incorporate the fresh yeast at the end of the mix as to keep fermentation slow for 6 days? Makes sense to me as I always read that longer fermentation usually means less yeast, but if conditions are kept colder I can use more youíre saying.  Hope I got that right.  I could use the .20-.30% for six day cold ferment too I assume? Also Iíve usually added the cake yeast into water but if adding it in last whatís the best way to do this? Thanks!

Also, Thank you for doing the smaller portions and one with oil and one without. Iím going to try these doughs probably tonight and let them sit in the fridge.  Good point about Pizzasharkís operation vs a commissary. I was wondering how a commissary may streamline things and have been thinking about this for weeks actually.

Lastly, I have some cheese saved from a PR slice. I noticed a different flavor in that vs when I melted their cheese. So that flavor must be 3 things other than the Mozzarella cheese: the sauce, Romano, or the oven. I washed off most sauce but Iím sure it still baked into the cheese.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Brent-r on October 02, 2018, 03:35:46 PM
There are pros and cons to everything and cottonseed oil 'can' be one of the most pesticide contaminated oils around.
DDT being one of the alarming possibilities.  Is there any organic cottonseed oil out there ?  I have not found any in Canada at
anything close to a reasonable cost.  see

https://superhumancoach.com/negative-effects-of-cottonseed-oil/

By the way the Nut Ola oil is about 5 times the cost in Canada that it is in the USA.  Over $ 68.

https://www.amazon.ca/Nut-Ola-Cottonseed-Oil-Nut-Ola/dp/B01K860O4W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1538508875&sr=8-1&keywords=nut+ola+cottonseed+oil&dpID=41p8J%252B8SpYL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 02, 2018, 03:37:14 PM
Thank you again as you do amazing work! So using .625% yeast would normally be used for 3 day fermentation, but when using up to 6 days, it would be wise to use cold water and incorporate the fresh yeast at the end of the mix as to keep fermentation slow for 6 days? Makes sense to me as I always read that longer fermentation usually means less yeast, but if conditions are kept colder I can use more youíre saying.  Hope I got that right.  I could use the .20-.30% for six day cold ferment too I assume? Also Iíve usually added the cake yeast into water but if adding it in last whatís the best way to do this? Thanks!
Pod4477,

Yes, you got it right. When you use water that is colder than normal, you want to be sure that there is enough yeast to sustain the fermentation process. If the amount of yeast is kept too low, the dough may not ferment properly or it may take a lot longer for the dough to start fermenting. In drastic cases, the dough may not ferment at all. I once tested this thesis when I used very cold water and very little yeast. The dough just sat there like a lump and did not ferment. I was hoping that the fermentation would be so slow as to allow the dough to cold ferment for several weeks. But when the dough just sat there like a glob of putty, I ended the experiment.

If you want to use 0.20-0.30% fresh yeast, you will want to use water at a temperature to achieve a normal finished dough temperature of around 75 degrees F and add the yeast as you would normally do, not at the end of the dough mixing process. I believe that that would be more in line with what PR does, although it is possible that they add the yeast late in the dough mixing process. It is also the approach I took with my first Papa John's clone dough as discussed at Reply 2 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58197#msg58197.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 03, 2018, 10:56:43 PM
Pod4477,

Yes, you got it right. When you use water that is colder than normal, you want to be sure that there is enough yeast to sustain the fermentation process. If the amount of yeast is kept too low, the dough may not ferment properly or it may take a lot longer for the dough to start fermenting. In drastic cases, the dough may not ferment at all. I once tested this thesis when I used very cold water and very little yeast. The dough just sat there like a lump and did not ferment. I was hoping that the fermentation would be so slow as to allow the dough to cold ferment for several weeks. But when the dough just sat there like a glob of putty, I ended the experiment.

If you want to use 0.20-0.30% fresh yeast, you will want to use water at a temperature to achieve a normal finished dough temperature of around 75 degrees F and add the yeast as you would normally do, not at the end of the dough mixing process. I believe that that would be more in line with what MM does, although it is possible that they add the yeast late in the dough mixing process. It is also the approach I took with my first Papa John's clone dough as discussed at Reply 2 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58197#msg58197.

Peter

Thank you so much. I was just going to ask what happens if the dough doesnít ferment, and thatís amazing it was just puddy.  I did a 50% hydration Greek/New England dough using very little yeast today and it came out really good. I let it ferment for 4 hours at room temp and I noticed Iím much better at stretching/opening up the dough from a room temp ferment Dough vs a cold ferment Dough, even after letting the fridge dough come up to 50-60į, and even 70į. The dough I did today was opened up at 73į and was a breeze with consistent thinness throughout. Mine just comes out very inconsistent thinness wise whenever I cold ferment. Why is this? Am I not letting it warm up enough? 

I have some interesting tests from the PR cheese. I believe I definitely found the buttery smell when I open up their box. As assumed it must be from the cheese, but I wonder if something is being added. After tasting the cheese cold, I noticed an almost industrial butter flavor coming from it. As I posted on the other thread, Iíve had high fat cheddar and itís nothing like this. It could be higher butterfat inside, but it almost seems fake tasting like pop secret. I noticed their cheese doesnít clump and I swear I see stuff on it. I wonder if this is the source of the butter flavor or maybe an oil? The flavor is intense and way more prominent than my Empire or any cheese Iíve ever had before.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 04, 2018, 10:22:33 AM
Pod4477,

Room temperature doughs do not require a lot of yeast to ferment and the fermentation rate can be quite fast. So, your dough is likely to be easier to form into skins. By contrast, cold fermented doughs might be more difficult to open into skins unless the dough has reached the ideal point to form into skins. My practice in my home has always been to temper the dough at room temperature until it started to increase is size and felt soft. That time could vary from one time to another depending on the room temperature.

I think it is also important to keep in mind that it can be difficult in a home setting to get dough that is as robust as what professionals make. They have expensive mixers whereas a typical home pizza maker might have an inexpensive home mixer with a C or J hook. Also, most professional pizza makers have a lot of experience in opening up dough balls and they generally specialize in one type of pizza with one type of dough, so they are not jumping around as much as home pizza makers might. But even for them, it can take a lot of experience to be able to open up dough balls with ease. I once asked a pizza maker at Papa John's how long it took him to be able to open up dough balls with ease. He said about three weeks. That could mean hundreds of dough balls.

Tom Lehmann is often asked about how best to learn to open up dough balls. I remembered that he composed a post at the PMQ Think Tank on this matter and I provided a link to that post, as well as some other helpful links, at Reply 26 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9037.msg78298#msg78298

The method described in Tom's PMQTT post is what he used to instruct students in courses offered by the American Institute of Baking (AIB) where Tom worked for about 50 years. And he would often mention that it did not take long before students were able to open up dough balls to form skins without having to use a rolling pin or something equivalent.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 04, 2018, 12:38:43 PM
Pod4477,

Room temperature doughs do not require a lot of yeast to ferment and the fermentation rate can be quite fast. So, your dough is likely to be easier to form into skins. By contrast, cold fermented doughs might be more difficult to open into skins unless the dough has reached the ideal point to form into skins. My practice in my home has always been to temper the dough at room temperature until it started to increase is size and felt soft. That time could vary from one time to another depending on the room temperature.

I think it is also important to keep in mind that it can be difficult in a home setting to get dough that is as robust as what professionals make. They have expensive mixers whereas a typical home pizza maker might have an inexpensive home mixer with a C or J hook. Also, most professional pizza makers have a lot of experience in opening up dough balls and they generally specialize in one type of pizza with one type of dough, so they are not jumping around as much as home pizza makers might. But even for them, it can take a lot of experience to be able to open up dough balls with ease. I once asked a pizza maker at Papa John's how long it took him to be able to open up dough balls with ease. He said about three weeks. That could mean hundreds of dough balls.

Tom Lehmann is often asked about how best to learn to open up dough balls. I remembered that he composed a post at the PMQ Think Tank on this matter and I provided a link to that post, as well as some other helpful links, at Reply 26 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9037.msg78298#msg78298

The method described in Tom's PMQTT post is what he used to instruct students in courses offered by the American Institute of Baking (AIB) where Tom worked for about 50 years. And he would often mention that it did not take long before students were able to open up dough balls to form skins without having to use a rolling pin or something equivalent.

Peter

Thank you for the link! That will help me for sure, I appreciate it. That makes sense why Iím having an easier time opening up room temperature doughs. Next time I take out a cold fermented dough Iíll wait until itís increased in size and soft like you said. I feel this is more in line with what I used to do and I stopped from a few times it was over fermenting, but probably because it was summer. Thatís amazing about hundreds of dough balls, and a very good question to ask. PRís dough balls seem very easy to open, almost effortless so am I right assuming theyíve been sitting out for quite some time in their bin? Iím getting consistent with room temp dough opening  and better with cold ferment dough opening. Youíre right, the big mixers are tough to compete with. How can you tell if a cold ferment dough has reached the ideal point to be made into skins? Thank you!
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 04, 2018, 02:11:37 PM
Thank you for the link! That will help me for sure, I appreciate it. That makes sense why Iím having an easier time opening up room temperature doughs. Next time I take out a cold fermented dough Iíll wait until itís increased in size and soft like you said. I feel this is more in line with what I used to do and I stopped from a few times it was over fermenting, but probably because it was summer. Thatís amazing about hundreds of dough balls, and a very good question to ask. PRís dough balls seem very easy to open, almost effortless so am I right assuming theyíve been sitting out for quite some time in their bin? Iím getting consistent with room temp dough opening  and better with cold ferment dough opening. Youíre right, the big mixers are tough to compete with. How can you tell if a cold ferment dough has reached the ideal point to be made into skins? Thank you!
Pod4477,

I'm sure that the pizza makers at PR have learned over the years when their dough is at its optimum to use. And usually experienced pizza makers and oven tenders are so good at what they do that they can even produce successful results when their dough has overfermented. It comes with experience. They no doubt also know when they should return warmed up dough that is unlikely to be used to fill outstanding orders to their coolers to cool down. In chains like Papa John's, their operating manuals specifically instruct that their workers return dough balls to their coolers when they rise to a specific temperature. In PR's case, the pizza makers might even form skins from dough balls that aren't needed to fill orders and put the skins into their coolers to be used later when orders pick up again.

You also asked about how to tell when a dough balls is ready to be used. There are several possible answers to that question. Often it is something that is learned from experience. It might also be because the dough has risen and is on the soft side but has not collapsed and not wet or clammy, and if one pushes a finger in the dough, the hole fills up again and is not permanent. That is a good sign that the dough has not overfermented.

In my case, I often used the poppy seed trick. This is something that I used very frequently when I wanted my experimental doughs to be made the same way each time as much as possible. You can see that I used the poppy seed trick often with my Papa John's clone doughs, and even more frequently when I helped Norma on different occasions where we tried to reverse engineer and clone pizzas of others. You can read about the poppy seed trick at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6914.msg59335#msg59335

There is nothing magical about a dough doubling in volume. But it is a good test to use in conjunction with the tests I mentioned above. You usually aren't going to go wrong when you use doubling as a measure of the degree of fermentation of the dough. The poppy seed trick is just a simple way to monitor the rise performance of the dough. It is not perfect, and there may be certain types of doughs where it is not a good choice. And you should use a type of storage container that is conducive to using the poppy seed trick. But it should work for the type of dough you have been testing and give you some clues as to when the dough might be ready to use or closing in on the time to use. You also get to see how a given dough rises over time. That is educational in itself and fun to monitor and even to extrapolate from one point in time to another.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 04, 2018, 10:06:48 PM
Pod4477,

I'm sure that the pizza makers at PR have learned over the years when their dough is at its optimum to use. And usually experienced pizza makers and oven tenders are so good at what they do that they can even produce successful results when their dough has overfermented. It comes with experience. They no doubt also know when they should return warmed up dough that is unlikely to be used to fill outstanding orders to their coolers to cool down. In chains like Papa John's, their operating manuals specifically instruct that their workers return dough balls to their coolers when they rise to a specific temperature. In PR's case, the pizza makers might even form skins from dough balls that aren't needed to fill orders and put the skins into their coolers to be used later when orders pick up again.

You also asked about how to tell when a dough balls is ready to be used. There are several possible answers to that question. Often it is something that is learned from experience. It might also be because the dough has risen and is on the soft side but has not collapsed and not wet or clammy, and if one pushes a finger in the dough, the hole fills up again and is not permanent. That is a good sign that the dough has not overfermented.

In my case, I often used the poppy seed trick. This is something that I used very frequently when I wanted my experimental doughs to be made the same way each time as much as possible. You can see that I used the poppy seed trick often with my Papa John's clone doughs, and even more frequently when I helped Norma on different occasions where we tried to reverse engineer and clone pizzas of others. You can read about the poppy seed trick at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6914.msg59335#msg59335

There is nothing magical about a dough doubling in volume. But it is a good test to use in conjunction with the tests I mentioned above. You usually aren't going to go wrong when you use doubling as a measure of the degree of fermentation of the dough. The poppy seed trick is just a simple way to monitor the rise performance of the dough. It is not perfect, and there may be certain types of doughs where it is not a good choice. And you should use a type of storage container that is conducive to using the poppy seed trick. But it should work for the type of dough you have been testing and give you some clues as to when the dough might be ready to use or closing in on the time to use. You also get to see how a given dough rises over time. That is educational in itself and fun to monitor and even to extrapolate from one point in time to another.

Peter

Thank you so much! It is tough to replicate how they do it at these restaurants but Iím going to try to get close. Very valuable information youíve shared. I do find this to be a tough thing and different now that itís fall. Iím going to try the poppyseed trick next time, thank you. So by putting the dough back in the fridge it canít reverse an over fermented dough but it can prevent it? It does seem the flour made a big difference. All Trumps is much better than Ling Arthur. I donít know what they are using but it smells and tastes a bit weird. Not sure about their Sir Lancelot, but the regular versions in stores are not pleasant to me. I do believe PR is using a butter or oil spray or something on their cheese. I did a lick test tonight and it tasted very oily on my lips and tasted like buttered popcorn. This accounts for the buttery smell I smell on their pizza that I couldnít get exactly like.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 05, 2018, 09:58:39 AM
Thank you so much! It is tough to replicate how they do it at these restaurants but Iím going to try to get close. Very valuable information youíve shared. I do find this to be a tough thing and different now that itís fall. Iím going to try the poppyseed trick next time, thank you. So by putting the dough back in the fridge it canít reverse an over fermented dough but it can prevent it? It does seem the flour made a big difference. All Trumps is much better than Ling Arthur. I donít know what they are using but it smells and tastes a bit weird. Not sure about their Sir Lancelot, but the regular versions in stores are not pleasant to me. I do believe PR is using a butter or oil spray or something on their cheese. I did a lick test tonight and it tasted very oily on my lips and tasted like buttered popcorn. This accounts for the buttery smell I smell on their pizza that I couldnít get exactly like.
Pod4477,

Once a dough overferments, putting it back into the cooler or refrigerator will not reverse the process. That usually suggest that the dough be used as soon as possible, or else form skins and put them into the cooler or refrigerator for short term use. The big chains, like Papa John's, have all kinds of rules in cases like this. For example, see Reply 1378 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg544071#msg544071

Notwithstanding what Papa John's rules say, there are franchisees that are likely to cheat from time to time, especially if compliance might or will hurt their bottom line. And, I suspect PR is not as rigid as Papa John's when it comes to dough management.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Brent-r on October 05, 2018, 11:03:32 AM
If a dough is over fermented I would assume it has picked up most of the enhanced flavors we are after.   How successful would it be to re-feed it like a sourdough starter and get the fermentation going again?  It seems like it should work but you of coarse end up with more dough.  What kind of percentage of added flour would it take to re-start the ferment.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 05, 2018, 02:47:08 PM
If a dough is over fermented I would assume it has picked up most of the enhanced flavors we are after.   How successful would it be to re-feed it like a sourdough starter and get the fermentation going again?  It seems like it should work but you of coarse end up with more dough.  What kind of percentage of added flour would it take to re-start the ferment.
Brent,

That is an interesting question. However, once a dough overferments, it is, for all intents and purposes, no longer useful to make pizzas. The fundamental reason is that the balance between gas production and gas retention is no longer in effect at the time of overfermentation, which is usually around the time that one wants to use the dough to make pizza. This issue of balance between gas production and gas retention is discussed at the theartisan.net website at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm#Fermentation%20Control. The applicable section is called Fermentation Control.

What usually leads to the overferment condition is the action of enzymes in the dough, along with certain acid byproducts of fermentation, that act to attack the gluten structure. Given enough time, the gluten structure will be dismantled. Also, the water in the dough will be released from its bond and lead to a wet or clammy or sticky dough. This is a topic about which I have posted many times before on the forum. See, for example, these posts:

Reply 68 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41874.msg423216#msg423216, and

Reply 10 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=37770.msg378180#msg378180.

As for the possible resuscitation process thar you mentioned, I do not believe that it will work since there would not be a sufficient amount of fresh unattacked gluten and other flour components in the dough to retain the gases of fermentation. Fresh flour in large quantity would be needed to create a dough that can retain the gases of fermentation. That dough would require its own source of yeast inasmuch as the overfermented dough may no longer have enough yeast on its own to sustain further fermentation.

However, the above said, I suppose it is possible that the overfermented dough could be used for its flavor contribution by treating it as "old dough" to be added to a freshly made batch of dough. The amount of "old dough" to use would be determined by making experimental or test doughs. Under normal circumstances, a typical amount might be up to around 20 percent although it might be wiser to use less than that because of the above average intensity of the flavors that the spent dough might impart to the new dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 05, 2018, 03:03:58 PM
Pod4477,

Once a dough overferments, putting it back into the cooler or refrigerator will not reverse the process. That usually suggest that the dough be used as soon as possible, or else form skins and put them into the cooler or refrigerator for short term use. The big chains, like Papa John's, have all kinds of rules in cases like this. For example, see Reply 1378 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg544071#msg544071

Notwithstanding what Papa John's rules say, there are franchisees that are likely to cheat from time to time, especially if compliance might or will hurt their bottom line. And, I suspect PR is not as rigid as Papa John's when it comes to dough management.

Peter

Very interesting and in line with YouTube videos I saw of the a pizza maker from Italy. He showed an over fermented dough and how to salvage it, but the gluten structure is pretty damaged. Iíve had this happen in my sourdough dough and it ripped to shreds when opened. It was in the fridge for 7 days. Interesting about using it almost as a biga. I find it intriguing that PR tries to cut down on bubbles but their pies have a ton of them. Why is this? 
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 05, 2018, 04:28:35 PM
Very interesting and in line with YouTube videos I saw of the a pizza maker from Italy. He showed an over fermented dough and how to salvage it, but the gluten structure is pretty damaged. Iíve had this happen in my sourdough dough and it ripped to shreds when opened. It was in the fridge for 7 days. Interesting about using it almost as a biga. I find it intriguing that PR tries to cut down on bubbles but their pies have a ton of them. Why is this?
Pod4477,

If we knew the dough formulation PR is using, and how the dough balls are formed into skins, I think we would have a better chance of answering your question about the bubbles. By "bubbles" I assume you mean large bubbles in the rim and maybe even inside of the rim as part of the oven spring. But, as you can see from Reply 515 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg104559#msg104559, oven spring has a lot of possible causes. Of course, in any given situation there are likely to be only a few factors that apply and, in your case having spent a lot of time trying to fathom what PR is doing, you may be able to zero in on some of the potential causes of the bubbles. As I noted in the above post, the oven is often a common factor in the formation of the bubbles. In PR's case, it may also be that the dough has a low hydration level and may be opened at too low a temperature, although in at least one video Anthony emphasized the "proofing" (tempering) of the dough before using. Is there a particular PR location or a particular PR oven where you have observed the large bubbles?

If your latest cold fermented doughs turn out to be useful, maybe you will get results that help answer your question.

Tom Lehmann is often asked what causes the bubbles. You can read his explanation in this post:

Reply 3 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7362.msg63551;topicseen#msg63551

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Brent-r on October 05, 2018, 04:56:57 PM
A few years ago I got a copy of Laurel Robertson's Bread Book and in reading it started to scratch my head about what was the difference in her European "desem" starters and sourdough starters.  She goes to great lengths to describe the wonderful flavors that can be coaxed out of dough by using a desem ferment.  You have to read in over 100 pages before she explains it.  A desem is a starter with wild yeasts but the difference is the temperature that favor sourdough yeasts and desem yeasts.   And then just last night I was reading Mastering Pizza by Marc Vetri and he adds to the understanding.  If the starter is kept/nurtured/stored at warmer temperature it flavors lactobacilus and lactic acid formation,  milder in flavour than the acetic acid produced from a colder starter as with San Franciso that produces a lot of acetic acid.  And Vetri says the lactobacilus give us more of enhanced flavors we are looking for.
Laurel describes these as 'European' flavors as compared to San Franciso sour.

So it follows that the temperature of the refrigerated 'cold' fermentation could be part of the mystery.  Maybe Regina and others are not chilling down to 40 degrees, but rather like Laurel Robertson suggests, chilling to temps in the 55 to 65 deg range and getting full flavor development without the real sour taste. 

I think, but wiser more experienced members might offer opinions, that even using a commercial yeast and letting it 'work' a few days at milder temps, could be part of the magic.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 05, 2018, 08:34:43 PM
Pod4477,

In an earlier post, I indicated that I was going to look into cottonseed oil at my local supermarket. That supermarket is a high end supermarket that seems to have at least one of everything. But, as it turn out, after making a visit to that market, no cottonseed oil. There were several dozen oils that I looked at although that included different container sizes for some of the oils. I thought perhaps that cottonseed oil was sold as a vegetable oil, but that was not the case. I saw blends of oils and thought that perhaps cottonseed oil was sold as part of a blend, but that was not the case either.

When I returned home, I did an online search for cottonseed oil. I found several products but the names did not sound familiar. It also seemed to me that the price for cottonseed oil is greater per unit than most of the oils that I saw at the supermarket. I'm sure that if PR wanted to use cottonseed oil in its dough, it could find a source that would sell that oil to PR at a price that might be acceptable to them. But I think it would still be more expensive than other oils that are commonly used by professionals, notably, soybean oil or a canola oil or a blend of some sort, several of which I saw at the supermarket.

This may all be moot if PR is not currently using cottonseed oil in its doughs, as Anthony stated in one of the PR videos. Yet I was still intrigued with the cottonseed oil inasmuch as Pizza Shark mentioned it in the PMQTT post where he gave the recipe that I converted for your use. I was further intrigued by that recipe inasmuch as it called for a high gluten flour and mentioned beer yeast. Those references gave me hope that the recipe was perhaps a PR recipe, even if it was back in 2003. Hopefully, your test dough balls may shed some light on this.

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2018, 08:57:21 PM
Pod4477,

In an earlier post, I indicated that I was going to look into cottonseed oil at my local supermarket. That supermarket is a high end supermarket that seems to have at least one of everything. But, as it turn out, after making a visit to that market, no cottonseed oil. There were several dozen oils that I looked at although that included different sizes for some of the oils. I thought perhaps that cottonseed oil was sold as a vegetable oil, but that was not the case. I saw blends of oils and thought that perhaps cottonseed oil was sold as part of a blend, but that was not the case either.

When I returned home, I did an online search for cottonseed oil. I found several products but the names did not sound familiar. It also seemed to me that the price for cottonseed oil is greater per unit than most of the oils that I saw at the supermarket. I'm sure that if PR wanted to use cottonseed oil in its dough, it could find a source that would sell that oil to PR at a price that might be acceptable to them. But I think it would still be more expensive than other oils that are commonly used by professionals, notably, soybean oil or a canola oil or a blend of some sort, several of which I saw at the supermarket.

This may all be moot if PR is not currently using cottonseed oil in its doughs, as Anthony stated in one of the PR videos. Yet I was still intrigued with the cottonseed oil inasmuch as Pizza Shark mentioned it in the PMQTT post where he gave the recipe that I converted for your use. I was further intrigued by that recipe inasmuch as it called for a high gluten flour and mentioned beer yeast. Those references gave me hope that the recipe was perhaps a PR recipe, even if it was back in 2003. Hopefully, your test dough balls may shed some light on this.

Peter

Peter and Pod4477,

No sure if this article will clear up the cottonseed oil issue or not.

On Aug 22, 2000
After recieving an e-mail from a member asking about the use of peanut oil in our dough, I inquired about the contents of the oil. According to Catania-Spagna Corporation, the oil used in the dough at Pizzeria Regina contains a blend of Cottonseed, Soybean and Pure Olive Oil.
Anthony Buccieri Vice President of Operations Boston Restaurant Associates


https://www.peanutallergy.com/boards/pizzeria-regina

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 05, 2018, 09:22:21 PM
Thank you Peter; it seems that the bubbling happens at all locations currently. It seems to be more apparent than other chains. Mine does seem to bubble quite a bit too, so I may be close. Iíve come to love the taste of the cottonseed oil, but it is tough to find. I had that same experience at my supermarkets.

Norma, it does clear it up, thank you for that info! I believe soybean and cottonseed are both pretty neutral, but olive oil would be stronger, so thatís interesting. So they did use oil in 2000. I wonder why Anthony said they donít use oil. Iím going to bet they still do, but maybe they stopped. Cottonseed is expensive, but it tastes better than vegetable or olive oil in dough to me. So do you guys think those oil blends would change the crust flavor enough vs just using cottonseed?

Sometimes I try and make the crust pictured in picture one below. Every time I try and make this flat crust by hand I canít get it close enough as I still seem to push all air to the edges. Like I mentioned before I saw the worker basically finger dock the dough with his fingertips out to the edges of the disc, making it totally flat and not making any crust rim. Then opened the dough like usual in the air with his knuckles. When I try this it seems to still make a crust rim no matter what I do. Iím almost ready to use a rolling pin, but it seems this technique is kind of a mix between hand stretched and rolling pin. The crust in the picture comes out flat but has air bubbles, unlike completely rolled out dough. Do you guys think Iím right about this?

The second picture shows a huge bubble from the North End location.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 05, 2018, 10:03:13 PM
Peter and Pod4477,

No sure if this article will clear up the cottonseed oil issue or not.

On Aug 22, 2000
After recieving an e-mail from a member asking about the use of peanut oil in our dough, I inquired about the contents of the oil. According to Catania-Spagna Corporation, the oil used in the dough at Pizzeria Regina contains a blend of Cottonseed, Soybean and Pure Olive Oil.
Anthony Buccieri Vice President of Operations Boston Restaurant Associates


https://www.peanutallergy.com/boards/pizzeria-regina

Norma
Norma,

Thank you. That is interesting.

What you cited was in 2000, or about three years before Pizza Shark posted the recipe at the PMQTT. So maybe PR dropped the soybean and olive oils in the interim. I intentionally did not mention the olive oil in my last post because most professionals don't use it, although most recently it has had a revival because it is supposed to be one of the most healthy oils and an integral part of the Mediterranean diet that has become very popular and highly recommended by health professionals in recent years. Even Papa John's has latched on the recent popularity of olive oil by including it in its dough but it is listed last in the ingredients statement at the PJ website. That means that it is used in minuscule amount, and may not even be detected in the finished pizzas by the average person.

When Pizza Shark mentioned 5% cottonseed oil, I can see how that might make a flavor impact. But, if PR has in fact discontinued use of oil in its dough, I can understand that decision. When pizza businesses expand, costs become very important. That usually means a simple recipe using inexpensive ingredients and/or conditioners that make the dough making and dough management functions easier to implement. If you look at the ingredients statements for Domino's, for example, you will see what I mean. Since PR is owned by a private equity firm (Boston Restaurant Associates/Dolphin), the day may come where they may want to take PR public. In the meantime, the private equity firm wants to make money and the usual practice is to remove costs as a precursor to going public. It also helps to raise capital to continue to expand the business.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2018, 10:25:47 PM
Norma,

Thank you. That is interesting.

What you cited was in 2000, or about three years before Pizza Shark posted the recipe at the PMQTT. So maybe PR dropped the soybean and olive oils in the interim. I intentionally did not mention the olive oil in my last post because most professionals don't use it, although most recently it has had a revival because it is supposed to be one of the most healthy oils and an integral part of the Mediterranean diet that has become very popular and highly recommended by health professionals in recent years. Even Papa John's has latched on the recent popularity of olive oil by including it in its dough but it is listed last in the ingredients statement at the PJ website. That means that it is used in minuscule amount, and may not even be detected in the finished pizzas by the average person.

When Pizza Shark mentioned 5% cottonseed oil, I can see how that might make a flavor impact. But, if PR has in fact discontinued use of oil in its dough, I can understand that decision. When pizza businesses expand, costs become very important. That usually means a simple recipe using inexpensive ingredients and/or conditioners that make the dough making and dough management functions easier to implement. If you look at the ingredients statements for Domino's, for example, you will see what I mean. Since PR is owned by a private equity firm (Boston Restaurant Associates), the day may come where they may want to take PR public. In the meantime, the private equity firm wants to make money and the usual practice is to remove costs as a precursor to going public. It also helps to raise capital to continue to expand the business.

Peter

Peter,

Maybe PR did drop the soybean and olive oils, but wouldn't you think maybe Pizzeria Regina might have had a special blend made for them before 2000 by Catania-Spagna Corporation?  Seems like their oils or blends came come in totes, so the cost would be less than purchasing in smaller amounts. 

https://cataniaoils.com/service-divisions/bulk/

Wouldn't some simple tests tell if oil is used in their dough or not?  Something like we both did on the Mellow Mushroom thread?  That is if Pod4477 can get a dough ball to test.  Also doesn't some oil added to pizza doughs keep a pizza from getting tougher after it is cold?

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 06, 2018, 01:25:22 AM
Peter,

Maybe PR did drop the soybean and olive oils, but wouldn't you think maybe Pizzeria Regina might have had a special blend made for them before 2000 by Catania-Spagna Corporation?  Seems like their oils or blends came come in totes, so the cost would be less than purchasing in smaller amounts. 

https://cataniaoils.com/service-divisions/bulk/

Wouldn't some simple tests tell if oil is used in their dough or not?  Something like we both did on the Mellow Mushroom thread?  That is if Pod4477 can get a dough ball to test.  Also doesn't some oil added to pizza doughs keep a pizza from getting tougher after it is cold?

Norma

Bet they did get a special blend made for them, and maybe (if the timeline lines up) stopped used them to cut costs when they experienced troubles. I cooked up my 3% oil dough and it was very close to theirs. I can say that the wheaty flavor is there, and it seems to come from the All Trumps flour, but maybe more so the Miallard reaction on the crust. Now I just want to get more bubbles in the dough and it will be spot on. I feel that the taste of the dough is very close now, but definitely going to try Peterís dough recipe, and I want to compare a cold fermented dough with a same day Dough to see how they compare. Going to try all three over the course of the next few days. I also tried clarified butter on the cheese tonight and it was good, but not buttery enough. I think it really needs milk solids or butter flavored oil sprayed on the cheese. Makes sense that I get a big buttery smell when I open the box. I almost always now put my face up to a pizza and smell the cheese lol.

Update: besides the buttery smell there seems to be another mystery smell, but the mystery smell could be mainly the butter smell idk. So I went back and smelled some cheese I pulled off a PR slice last week thatís been sitting in the fridge, and I also smelled a pile of cheese, sauce, and semolina crumbs piled up in a slice box from the other day I saved. A common scent emerged, which Iíll refer to as the ďmystery smell,Ē is still emitting from both, even after several days. I canít put my finger on the smell, but itís best described as a savory almost sweet smell. Maybe itís just the tomatoes used mixing with some sort of butter flavored oil spray. I definitely have it narrowed down to the sauce (maybe Romano is being smelled too), cheese, or possibly semolina, as these are the only three things left in that box.  Trying to confirm whether or not the mystery smell is the same or separate from the buttery smell I get when I put my nose up to the pizza, and that I taste on the Mozzarella shredded cold. Funny thing is, I once thought the smell came from the crust, but that really doesnít have any considerable smell. I compared my own now cold slices from a few hours ago to Reginaís and while mine smelled close, they lacked this mystery scent even with clarified butter added. Now I didnít use Stanislaus 7-11 tonight and used Pastene Kitchen Ready Ground Tomatoes alongside Galbani Shredded WMM. I poured some clarified butter over the top to see what it would taste like. The tomatoes served as a good control and still tasty to me. The milk solids should have been added back I to the butter though. 

I thought about what sets Regina apart from other places, and besides the crust taste, itís the mystery smell. I keep going back to ďmaybe itís the cheese or maybe itís the tomatoes,Ē because I always thought the wonderul smell came from the crust, but the butterfat was just spilling onto the crust.

My current guess is that the mystery smell/flavor is coming from the sauce or a buttery oil spray, or both. That smell mixed with the very buttery cheese taste definitely gives Regina itís signature flavor and smell. I remember from a PR crust save test last month, in which I put an entire crust in a jar and noticed an amazing aroma coming from it even 5 days later. I noted that I had left some cheese and sauce on it. When I did another crust save test of just the crust, it was just a regular smell. The thing is Iíve tried melting butter and it did make the smell and taste similiar, itís always missing that mystery smell. There is definitely Romano cheese in the sauce, as Iíve licked the sauce and itís insanely cheesy and salty. Just as Pizzashark said, Iím guessing itís the top of the line canned tomatoes that play a big role. My 7/11 were very close and next Iíll try 7/11 tomatoes with Romano, and butter sprayed on the cheese. That should get me pretty close, along with Peterís dough calculations. Are 7/11 with the peels close to what they use, you think?
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Zing on October 06, 2018, 05:06:40 AM
Just had to get up for an Alka-Seltzer break because of some greasy fish i bought at a whole-in-the-wall carryout joint last night. Anyway, a few years ago I was posting in the American and Cracker Crust threads about the great smell or aroma I received from reheating Shakey's pizza that had been frozen before my neighbor brought it back from California. Both DNA Dan and I posted about it, but I never did determine its origin. Then, on a subsequent batch some time later, there was no smell coming fro the oven.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 06, 2018, 08:38:44 AM
Thank you Peter; it seems that the bubbling happens at all locations currently. It seems to be more apparent than other chains. Mine does seem to bubble quite a bit too, so I may be close. Iíve come to love the taste of the cottonseed oil, but it is tough to find. I had that same experience at my supermarkets.

Norma, it does clear it up, thank you for that info! I believe soybean and cottonseed are both pretty neutral, but olive oil would be stronger, so thatís interesting. So they did use oil in 2000. I wonder why Anthony said they donít use oil. Iím going to bet they still do, but maybe they stopped. Cottonseed is expensive, but it tastes better than vegetable or olive oil in dough to me. So do you guys think those oil blends would change the crust flavor enough vs just using cottonseed?

Sometimes I try and make the crust pictured in picture one below. Every time I try and make this flat crust by hand I canít get it close enough as I still seem to push all air to the edges. Like I mentioned before I saw the worker basically finger dock the dough with his fingertips out to the edges of the disc, making it totally flat and not making any crust rim. Then opened the dough like usual in the air with his knuckles. When I try this it seems to still make a crust rim no matter what I do. Iím almost ready to use a rolling pin, but it seems this technique is kind of a mix between hand stretched and rolling pin. The crust in the picture comes out flat but has air bubbles, unlike completely rolled out dough. Do you guys think Iím right about this?

The second picture shows a huge bubble from the North End location.

Pod4477,

Interesting that bubbling happens at all location currently.  Thanks for the photos! 

Some olive oils are quite neutral in pizza doughs, so if soybean and cottonseed oils are quite neutral wouldn't know why they would use a blend of oils, unless they think somehow that would make the taste of the crust different or unique. 

From the photos you provided the baked rim crusts look fairly uneven to my eyes in how they baked, with those bubbles some places and the bubble that rose and dropped.  If the sauce and cheese aren't evenly applied that also can cause bubbles inside the rim crust.  A lot to think about.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 06, 2018, 09:32:01 AM
Peter,

Maybe PR did drop the soybean and olive oils, but wouldn't you think maybe Pizzeria Regina might have had a special blend made for them before 2000 by Catania-Spagna Corporation?  Seems like their oils or blends came come in totes, so the cost would be less than purchasing in smaller amounts. 

https://cataniaoils.com/service-divisions/bulk/

Wouldn't some simple tests tell if oil is used in their dough or not?  Something like we both did on the Mellow Mushroom thread?  That is if Pod4477 can get a dough ball to test.  Also doesn't some oil added to pizza doughs keep a pizza from getting tougher after it is cold?

Norma
Norma,

I am sure that you are correct. I speculated that maybe PR went to only cottonseed oil inasmuch as that is the only oil that Pizza Shark mentioned in his post at the PMQTT. To answer Pod4477's question, I am not sure what the soybean oil and olive oil would have added to the cottonseed oil from a flavor standpoint. As you know, soybean oil is a fairly neutral oil that is often used by pizza makers, mostly because it is a cheap oil. And since the olive oil was mentioned last in the oil blend pecking order, it is likely that there was not much olive oil in the dough, so its flavor contribution might not even be noticeable among all of the different competing flavors in the finished crust and pizza. I would say that the olive oil (labeled pure olive oil) was a quality olive oil, not the cheaper pomace olive oil.

I noticed that the PR pizzas are often compared to the NY style or some variant thereof. The early NY style pizzas did not use oils in the doughs. According to member Ron Molinaro, of Il Pizzaiolo fame in the Pittsburgh area, it was when deck ovens were invented and replaced the higher temperature coal ovens that oil, and sugar as well, were added to pizza doughs for the NY style. You are the expert on this but when PR got its start in 1926, deck ovens had not yet been invented. So it may be fair to ask if PR has indeed used the same dough recipe throughout its existence. The same question might also be asked if the oil blend was used but then discontinued.

Ron's post where he discusses the use of deck ovens is at Reply 3 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1053.msg9384/topicseen.html#msg9384

The oil that seemed to be used most for the NY style is olive oil. But only in small amounts. In Tom Lehmann's NY style dough recipe given on the forum, at https://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann-nystyle.php, which is basically the same as his recipe posted at the PMQ Recipe Bank, calls for only 1-2% olive oil.

You are correct that oil in the dough, along with any sugar in the dough, serves to retain moisture in the dough, and because they also contribute to tenderness in the crust, the crust is less likely to get tough after cooling.

My recollection from what I read at the Chowhound forum is that PR will not sell its dough to customers. That would be nice if Pod4477 could get a PR dough ball because he could then do a gluten mass test and get a pretty good fix on the protein content of the flour and also the amount of water in the dough, including the water in the flour and also any added water. The presence of oil in the dough would be determined by examining the water used to perform the gluten mass test.

To the above, I would add that while PR may no longer be using oil in its dough, that may not rule out oiling of the dough balls themselves prior to cold fermenting them. More than once I have read statements that no oil is used in the doughs, or even shown in the recipes, but the dough balls were oiled. The last example of that that I can recall was the Jet's pizza dough. In any event, some of the coating oil gets absorbed into the dough itself.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 06, 2018, 11:36:39 AM
Bet they did get a special blend made for them, and maybe (if the timeline lines up) stopped used them to cut costs when they experienced troubles. I cooked up my 3% oil dough and it was very close to theirs. I can say that the wheaty flavor is there, and it seems to come from the All Trumps flour, but maybe more so the Miallard reaction on the crust. Now I just want to get more bubbles in the dough and it will be spot on. I feel that the taste of the dough is very close now, but definitely going to try Peterís dough recipe, and I want to compare a cold fermented dough with a same day Dough to see how they compare. Going to try all three over the course of the next few days. I also tried clarified butter on the cheese tonight and it was good, but not buttery enough. I think it really needs milk solids or butter flavored oil sprayed on the cheese. Makes sense that I get a big buttery smell when I open the box. I almost always now put my face up to a pizza and smell the cheese lol.

Pod4477,

This morning, I went back and revisited all of the videos cited in this thread to see if I might have missed any clues, especially in connection with your desire to get large bubbles.

But first I should mention that one of the videos said that the cheese blend is one made for them. And from an article I read, it said that the cheeses are aged at the commissary. That might be something as simple as defrosting the cheese if the cheese is delivered to the PR commissary in frozen form. It's  hard for me to imagine that cheese blocks are shipped fresh from Cuba, NY to Massachusetts. That would impose strict supervision on PR to be sure that no pathogens or other harmful substances are in the cheese. One of the videos shows a block of cheese being shredded at the store level.

The tomatoes from Stanislaus are also held at the commissary. I believe that the sauce is prepared at the store level by adding fresh basil and grated Pecorino Romano cheese. I'm not sure if water is added to get the desired consistency.

With respect to the dough, I looked at the videos to see if I could spot clues as to how the bubbles are formed in the crust. As Norma indicated, and as I also noted in an earlier post, there are no easy answers. However, if we assume that the PR dough balls contain no oil and also that they are not coated with oil (but presumably are covered with plastic or some other protective cover), it may matter which side of the dough ball when flattened becomes the top of the pizza and which side becomes the bottom. The reason I mention this is because the PR videos showing the forming of skins show the tops of the flattened dough balls becoming the tops of the pizzas. According to Tom Lehmann, if dough balls are not oiled and the tops of the flattened dough balls become the tops of pizzas, large bubbles can form in the finished crusts. I can't say for sure that this is the cause of bubbling in PR's case, but you can read what Tom says on this matter toward the end of his post at Reply 8 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43029.msg433080;topicseen#msg433080

I may also have found another clue that was not in any of the videos. This morning, I found an article at https://northendwaterfront.com/2017/03/eliot-students-learn-craft-pizza-making/ that mentions the use of a tray to mold the crust of the dough. That is the initial handling of a dough ball. Norma has a mold that is used for such a purpose and perhaps can comment on its use. However, I noticed that all of the PR videos that show the formation of skins show the dough balls already flattened. They are then opened as shown in the videos.

I also think that if the PR dough has a relatively low hydration, whether using oil in the dough or not, if the resulting dough upon mixing is on the stiff side, that might retain more of the formula water and slow down the evaporation of that water and, as a result, be more conducive to bubbling of the dough once the dressed pizzas are subjected to a high oven temperature that tries to cause steam to form in the dough. In one of the videos, Anthony said that the dough balls are "proofed" so that they can get bubbly. I noticed in one of the videos that a tray of flattened dough balls, covered with plastic, was positioned on a table in front of one of the ovens. I think would insure a nice toasty environment for the dough balls.

I think we will have to wait until you have tried a long cold fermented dough along the lines discussed by Pizza Shark to see if you get more bubbling.

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 06, 2018, 12:05:41 PM
Norma,

I am sure that you are correct. I speculated that maybe PR went to only cottonseed oil inasmuch as that is the only oil that Pizza Shark mentioned in his post at the PMQTT. To answer Pod4477's question, I am not sure what the soybean oil and olive oil would have added to the cottonseed oil from a flavor standpoint. As you know, soybean oil is a fairly neutral oil that is often used by pizza makers, mostly because it is a cheap oil. And since the olive oil was mentioned last in the oil blend pecking order, it is likely that there was not much olive oil in the dough, so its flavor contribution might not even be noticeable among all of the different competing flavors in the finished crust and pizza. I would say that the olive oil (labeled pure olive oil) was a quality olive oil, not the cheaper pomace olive oil.

I noticed that the PR pizzas are often compared to the NY style or some variant thereof. The early NY style pizzas did not use oils in the doughs. According to member Ron Molinaro, of Il Pizzaiolo fame in the Pittsburgh area, it was when deck ovens were invented and replaced the higher temperature coal ovens that oil, and sugar as well, were added to pizza doughs for the NY style. You are the expert on this but when PR got its start in 1926, deck ovens had not yet been invented. So it may be fair to ask if PR has indeed used the same dough recipe throughout its existence. The same question might also be asked if the oil blend was used but then discontinued.

Ron's post where he discusses the use of deck ovens is at Reply 3 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1053.msg9384/topicseen.html#msg9384

The oil that seemed to be used most for the NY style is olive oil. But only in small amounts. In Tom Lehmann's NY style dough recipe given on the forum, at https://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann-nystyle.php, which is basically the same as his recipe posted at the PMQ Recipe Bank, calls for only 1-2% olive oil.

You are correct that oil in the dough, along with any sugar in the dough, serves to retain moisture in the dough, and because they also contribute to tenderness in the crust, the crust is less likely to get tough after cooling.

My recollection from what I read at the Chowhound forum is that PR will not sell its dough to customers. That would be nice because Pod4477 could do a gluten mass test and get a pretty good fix on the protein content of the flour and also the amount of water in the dough, including the water in the flour and also any added water. The presence of oil in the dough would be determined by examining the water used to perform the gluten mass test.

To the above, I would add that while PR may no longer be using oil in its dough, that may not rule out oiling of the dough balls themselves prior to cold fermenting them. More than once I have read statements that no oil is used in the doughs, or even shown in the recipes, but the dough balls were oiled. The last example of that that I can recall was the Jet's pizza dough. In any event, some of the coating oil gets absorbed into the dough itself.

Peter

Peter,

You may be correct that PR went only to cottonseed oil inasmuch as that is the only oil Pizza Shark mention in his post at The PMQTT.  Agree that soybean oil, olive oil and cottonseed oil might not give a different flavor to the crust.  Have tried many oils and different olive oils. In my opinion none gave a really different flavor to the crust of a round pizza. 

Agree with Ron Molinaro that early NY style pizzas did not use oils in their dough.  Ron also said that dough formulations really weren't all that special.

Yes, you are correct when oiling dough balls some will get into the dough, even if no oil is added to the dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 06, 2018, 12:14:45 PM
Pod4477,



I may also have found another clue that was not in any of the videos. This morning, I found an article at https://northendwaterfront.com/2017/03/eliot-students-learn-craft-pizza-making/ that mentions the use of a tray to mold the crust of the dough. That is the initial handling of a dough ball. Norma has a mold that is used for such a purpose and perhaps can comment on its use. However, I noticed that all of the PR videos that show the formation of skins show the dough balls already flattened. They are then opened as shown in the videos.

I also think that if the MR dough has a relatively low hydration, whether using oil in the dough or not, if the resulting dough upon mixing is on the stiff side, that might retain more of the formula water and slow down the evaporation of that water and, as a result, be more conducive to bubbling of the dough once the dressed pizzas are subjected to a high oven temperature that tries to cause steam to form in the dough. In one of the videos, Anthony said that the dough balls are "proofed" so that they can get nice and bubbly. I noticed in one of the videos that a tray of flattened dough balls, covered with plastic, was positioned on a table in front of one of the ovens. I think would insure a nice toasty environment for the dough balls.

Peter

Peter,

Great find on the link you provided about a dough mold.  Not sure if it is the same dough mold I use, but mine can almost tame any dough ball, when making a round pizza.  Saw that video that had those partly opened dough balls piled up.  When using my dough mold the final pizza usually don't have a lot of bubbling, but then my sauce and cheese are applied differently.

Agree with you that the dough probably is a relatively lower hydration with or without oil.  Lots of pizzeria put their dough trays near or on top of their ovens to get the doughs to the point that the doughs will open how they want.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 06, 2018, 01:27:20 PM
Zing,
Very interesting about the aroma and hope the heartburn ceased.

Norma,
No problem. I take a lot of pictures and the bubbling is something Iíve noticed.
Peter,
Awesome find about the dough molds! Interesting about oil too and itís use in low hydration dough. I re-read the napkin last night and they mention aged cheese. But like you said this may be just defrosting or keeping them for a bit. I didnít think about the placement of the flattened dough balls near the oven. Awesome point. So the dough balls sit in the mold and that flattens them? Iíve seen some videos of this online I believe but not sure. Then it looks like they are placed one on top of the other with a ton of flour and near the oven like you said.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 06, 2018, 01:58:40 PM
Pod4477,

Several years ago, I undertook to try to reverse engineer and clone the Papa Gino's dough. At the time, PG employees were required to use molds as part of the dough opening process. However, as is often the case with pizza makers in chain stores, they don't always follow the company's manual. Apparently, that was also the case with some of the PG store workers. Knowing that you are in PG territory, you might find this post helpful in terms of understanding how pizza molds are used:

Reply 87 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8167.msg75760#msg75760.

Like scott r (Scott), PG was one of my favorite pizzerias in Massachusetts. I would often visit their stores on trips back to MA.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 06, 2018, 04:25:31 PM
Pod4477,

Several years ago, I undertook to try to reverse engineer and clone the Papa Gino's dough. At the time, PG employees were required to use molds as part of the dough opening process. However, as is often the case with pizza makers in chain stores, they don't always follow the company's manual. Apparently, that was also the case with some of the PG store workers. Knowing that you are in PG territory, you might find this post helpful in terms of understanding how pizza molds are used:

Reply 87 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8167.msg75760#msg75760.

Like scott r (Scott), PG was one of my favorite pizzerias in Massachusetts. I would often visit their stores on trips back to MA.

Peter

Thank you. Iíve seen those molds being used somewhere years ago and maybe it was PG. The workers Iíve seen at PR donít seem to be using them, but maybe they should. When I go to Braintree I usually see discs inside a plastic container lined next to each other. The containers are stacked on top of each other and they pull the flat disc out to order, put it in a flour container and lay it on the counter. They usually use their fingertips to flatten to disc and push the gases out (sometimes pressing the air out of the entire disc and sometimes not pressing down the edges to keep the gases in). The they occasionally stretch the dough using two hands on the counter and then they always open it up in the air with their knuckles stretching it. Very similar to the instructional videos except for when some workers press the entire disc. I kind of like the flat look of this but Iím sure many people donít. So the mold is used to make sure every pizza is consistent right?

I loved reading your PG posts and Iíve always wondered how it worked. Awesome idea to ask to go in the back and see how itís done. I believe one location near me now had the pizza making visible to the public now, so Iíll have to go take a look nex time. I was also wrong about the oven, as I forgot they use carousel ovens. I noticed years ago and for some reason though they used a deck oven. I do love PG still but I actually prefer my crust now that is more in line with PR. Iím guessing itís either the flour they use or the carousel oven, but it just doesnít taste as good as PR. Iím sure it was better years ago when you went though and when I was young it must have been better. Iíve been going there since the 90s but just canít rmember. I do like their rustic pies a lot too. So their cheese is a 3 cheese blend in each shred?
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 06, 2018, 04:51:24 PM
I do like their rustic pies a lot too. So their cheese is a 3 cheese blend in each shred?
Pod4477,

The last time I had a pizza at PG, it was a rustic pizza and I enjoyed it. The cheese was a three-cheese blend. So, there is nothing particularly unusual about contracting for a custom blend. In PR's case, the only thing I recall from the videos is that the cheese that PR uses is a high fat whole milk mozzarella cheese. Anthony referred to it as "full cream" in one of the PR videos. I don't recall what other cheeses are used as part of a blend.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 06, 2018, 11:21:07 PM
Decided to look though PR's photos on Instagram.  Agree with Peter that the looks of the pies are all over the map.  Saw this photo that appears to shows partly baked/or baked pizzas on a rack, above the oven, and another photo of just the rack above the oven.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BkWtPTOhAxy/?tagged=reginapizzeria

https://www.instagram.com/p/BYRKl_FA2VJ/?tagged=reginapizzeria

Also wanted to see if there were any photos of the commissary in Woburn.  Only found one photo and it is just of the ovens they might use for events.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BTXknnggjUO/?tagged=reginapizzeria

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Zing on October 06, 2018, 11:44:05 PM
Zing,
Very interesting about the aroma and hope the heartburn ceased.


I thought I'd list the places in three threads where I start to post about "That Smell' (DNA Dan's term). It may or not be of value to you.

The first set goes on for quite a while, but starts here:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10707.msg176246;topicseen#msg176246

Another set starts here:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=518.msg133070;topicseen#msg133070

A third set starts here:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13389.msg224223#msg224223

There are several posts in each of these threads.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 07, 2018, 02:39:25 AM
I tested another PR slice tonight and I can't seem to pinpoint the origin of certain flavors.  I know it's not just my pizza that doesn't have them as I've been testing different local pizza shops around here, while none have the flavor of PR.  Thank you for the links as the smell is something I'm definitely having trouble with, so all help is appreciated.  You guys are amazing and I'm learning so much.  I do like PG blend and I've seen a similar blend being sold on restaurant supply sites, so I'm guessing it could be similar tasting.  So I did a same day dough test today (picture 1) and while the shape was very similar to PR, the sauce and cheese need tweaking.  The dough was okay but the lack of sugar or cold ferment meant the dough came out very white and bland.  Is this normal?  Incidentally I recreated a certain pizza that I've been trying to figure out, and one many shops have.  It is what I call white crumb dough with a flat look to it (picture 2).  I found my same day dough was a breeze to open, compared to my cold fermented dough having some pull back.  I'm assuming this is just because it's too cold, and I'm trying to get used to making dough in 60 degree temps here compared to 90.  I made 4 more doughs for a 3-6 day ferment, including Peter's calculations. Another trip to PR is needed tomorrow or Monday, to get a white pie to see the impact that sauce is having on the smell. 

Todays Test results: 

Sauce: My 7/11 tomatoes don't taste the same as PR, as PR has almost a deep tomato paste taste to me.  Can anyone pinpoint a comparison? I can't spot any Romano but I can taste it below the sauce, but I guess that's because it's pre mixed at the commissary.  I'm honestly debating a 5 min cooked sauce to incorporate different flavors like I used to do.

Cheese: Adding margarine gave it a fake buttery taste but I didn't cook the cheese right.  I'm still messing with my gas fired Ooni, and for testing my oven has been closer. (picture 3 of the oven bake; the bubbling in the middle is similar to some PR pizzas I've had).  I do realize I should use less cheese and cooking with a higher temp seems to melt a lot closer to PR. 

Crust: Bland crust, but it was same day dough.  I do enjoy working with a dryer dough though and using semolina makes it a breeze.  The crust on picture 3 was from a 6 day cold ferment dough and was my best crust.  I'm starting to think the "mystery smell" is coming from the crust or the cheese of PR and not the tomatoes, but my white pizza test should narrow it down.

On a side note I noticed I got away from these style of pies that I was having fun making (picture 4).  And this interesting pie from PR in the North End is something I really enjoyed.  The oven somehow managed to keep all the flour on the dough but blacken the cheese.  This is the style of 10" pizza I love, when I just don't want a thin pie.  Any ideas on what size dough ball this would be from?
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: RedSauce on October 07, 2018, 11:34:47 AM
I'm just offering my hunches and gut reactions here. I'll leave the forensics to the capable clinicians like Peter. As to the oil, I'd be willing to bet they're using standard "salad oil" like La Spagnola (see photos) or Virginia or La Regina (no relation). They used La Spagnola at the shop where I used to work and I use it at home. Right off the shelf at Market Basket. I wouldn't expect too much flavor influence from the type of oil as it probably is chosen by cost and is used only to condition the dough. As the label shows, the "vegetable oils" combined with the olive oil are subject to variation. I'd also include in that bet that they're using commercial baker's yeast and that the "special natural" description was born in their advertising firm's office. I think the old oven at Thatcher Street probably produces more top heat (and is running hotter) and produces a darker rim than the commercial deck ovens they have at Braintree, South Station, Faneuil Hall, Liberty Tree Mall, etc., although you'll sometimes get a dark rim from one of them, depending on the temp setting and length of bake - rote consistency isn't as iron-clad in the suburban locations. I haven't combed every word of this thread so may have missed it, but if you're looking for a wheaty taste, have you added some whole wheat flour? Just my 2 cents and a grain of salt.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 07, 2018, 12:23:14 PM
Pod4477,

With respect to your same day dough, can you tell us how long you fermented the dough and at what temperature?  The reason I ask is because short time (aka "emergency") doughs often have light colored crusts, especially if the fermentation times are short and the finished dough temperature starts out on the high side. The reason is because the enzymes (usually diastatic malt) work on the damaged starch in the flour to produce simple sugars to feed the yeast, which can only feed on simple sugars. And there is not enough residual sugars created during the fermentation window to provide adequate crust coloration. Sometimes, this problem can be overcome by adding some sugar to the dough, but because ordinary table sugar is a complex sugar it has to be broken down into simple sugars. But that can take some time, usually many hours, although you might get some crust coloration through caramelization of the sugar during baking.

It perhaps will come as no surprise to you that I tried to make some Papa John's emergency clone doughs. And what I found worked well was to add some honey to the doughs and to omit the sugar called for in the basic PJ clone recipe. One of the advantages of honey is that it inherently contains some simple sugars that can help feed the yeast fairly quickly as the enzymes work on the damaged starch but at the same time provide increased crust coloration. You can see what I am talking about by looking at these posts:

Reply 52 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg66312#msg66312, and

Reply 172 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg96745#msg96745.

With respect to the Stanislaus tomatoes, do you know whether Stanislaus prepares the sauce at their commissary or is it done at the store level? I would think that you can get the answer to that question by asking one or more of the workers at the places you frequently visit.

As for the weight of a dough ball for the 10" size PR pizza, that is not a simple question to answer. You would think that just using the same thickness factor value as I calculated for the 16" PR pizza (the Pizza Shark version) would work, but it might not. For example, when I was doing my Papa John's clone work, I found that the different dough ball weights for the different PJ size pizzas did not have the same thickness factors. The same was true for the different sizes of the Mellow Mushroom pizzas. I could not account for the differences since they might have been accidental or they might have been dictated by how their ovens bake different sizes of pizzas with many toppings variations. Or it might have been as simple as trying to get dough ball weights that are in simple round numbers that make it easier for workers to weigh out dough balls on their scales. The only place I can recall that seemed to use the same thickness factor for all of its pizza sizes was Jet's.

Again, you might ask one or more of the workers of the PR locations you visit what dough ball weight they use for the 10" size. I once asked a worker at a local Domino's what the dough ball weight was for the pizza I ordered. He promptly pulled out a scale and weighed the dough ball and gave me the answer. I also asked the same question of a worker at a local Papa John's and he gave me the dough ball weight.

As an aside, when I make doughs with hydrations on the low side, and even when there is added oil, I tend to use my food processor. Sometimes I might use a combination of my food processor and stand mixer. But my stand mixer alone would not work well. It is geriatric and on Social Security, so I don't ask it to do things that will bring on pain or its untimely demise.

Peter


Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 07, 2018, 01:02:39 PM
Thank you guys for your replies. Thank you for pointing out that oil, as I bet theyíre using it (canít imagine theyíd still use only cottonseed but who knows.) Iím not positive but I believe the wheaty taste is from better malt being used. I noticed an immediate difference using All Trumps over KA bread flour for instance. Whole Wheat flour could be used as well Iím sure. The ďcerealĒ taste I get from Braintree Iíve recreated from baking it at 485į just like they do, and the crust gets nice and brown. This tastes just like bran flakes or grape nuts, but doesnít seem to happen in the North End location. Their oven does darken the rim more like you said, and Iím able to get as close as possible using lump charcoal and letting it die down to about 600į. The pizza still retains most of the caked on flour and has the perfect crisp to it. I may have to get a flame guard though to prevent burning, as I need to turn it often now. How do you think they achieve such a caked on flour as in my last picture? Iíve tried refrigerating it with flour and Iíve come close, as the Braintree worker said North End lets it sit in flour.

I believe mine was basically an emergency dough. I followed the chart though and used .20% IDY and the final temp was around 75-80į. It was a bit cold in the room though so Iím sure it could have used a longer ferment, as it probably dropped to 70į. I was hungry though and really just wanted to test opening the dough but next time Iíll give it more time. In the summer I did a same day dough that wasnít pale so it must have had more fermentation. Thank you for the explanation as Iíve been looking for a breakdown of emergency dough for a while actually. Im suspecting many places here are using a quick dough. Youíre right, using the food processor is amazing for dryer doughs and it comes out with awesome gluten structure every time. Iím going to use honey next time. Very cool youíve cloned PJ emergency doighs and I bet it was fun to do. I like making different doighs throughout the week. I assume PR is using a lot of dough for their 10Ē pies but Iíll have to ask. For the tomatoes, It almost seems that they add things at the store level, but couldnít figure it out. Would it make sense to do this? They talked about adding cheese, water, and bay leaves.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 07, 2018, 01:13:41 PM
I'm just offering my hunches and gut reactions here. I'll leave the forensics to the capable clinicians like Peter. As to the oil, I'd be willing to bet they're using standard "salad oil" like La Spagnola (see photos) or Virginia or La Regina (no relation). They used La Spagnola at the shop where I used to work and I use it at home. Right off the shelf at Market Basket. I wouldn't expect too much flavor influence from the type of oil as it probably is chosen by cost and is used only to condition the dough. As the label shows, the "vegetable oils" combined with the olive oil are subject to variation. I'd also include in that bet that they're using commercial baker's yeast and that the "special natural" description was born in their advertising firm's office. I think the old oven at Thatcher Street probably produces more top heat (and is running hotter) and produces a darker rim than the commercial deck ovens they have at Braintree, South Station, Faneuil Hall, Liberty Tree Mall, etc., although you'll sometimes get a dark rim from one of them, depending on the temp setting and length of bake - rote consistency isn't as iron-clad in the suburban locations. I haven't combed every word of this thread so may have missed it, but if you're looking for a wheaty taste, have you added some whole wheat flour? Just my 2 cents and a grain of salt.
RedSauce,

I am enjoying your posts, and welcome it when you or others take me out of the Twilight Zone and put me on terra firma, where evidence rules, not what video producers might create to better market their products. I am naturally skeptical about what I see on the Internet when it comes to pizza. That skepticism has come out of experience. More than once, I have seen videos that turned out to be what we would call "fake" videos today. And in some cases, the videos were taken down by YouTube. Also, in general, people do not know how much work and planning and control of the work product that goes into the production of videos, especially those that end up on cable shows.

But to get back on topic, as I noted earlier, at its website (at http://www.pizzeriaregina.com/), Pizzeria Regina states the following:

Our secret century old recipe uses a special natural yeast and is aged to perfection.

That simple sentence is enough to provoke all kinds of research and analysis. For example, what was in that original century old recipe? Did it include any oil or oil blend, including the ones you mentioned today, or their equivalents? Anthony tells us in one of his PR videos that there is no oil in their dough. What was the "special natural yeast"? To be fair, Anthony tells us that the original recipe was "tweaked" but that the pizzas are the same as were made back in 1926. This statement appears at about 0:26 in the video at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=pMR1Zbp1iWM

But what does tweaking mean? A lot of things have happened to pizza and ingredients since 1926. For example, high gluten flour was not commonly used in 1926. Maybe it was used for bagels, but when I researched the matter I believe that it was somewhere in the 1970s that pizza makers started playing around with high gluten flour for pizzas, most notably in NYC. Of course, fresh yeast was around, even before then, having been created by Charles Fleischmann and his brother sometime in the late 1860s. I am not sure that "tweaking" is the right word to cover all of the many changes since 1926. But I admit that it makes for good salesmanship. But at the same time I don't see the uniqueness of the PR recipe going back to 1926 based on the deference it is given by Anthony and others at PR.

Maybe Pod4477 can stir up the hornets nest by getting in touch with some of the PR employees, maybe using this document that I found on the Internet:

https://www.zoominfo.com/pic/regina-pizzeria/357483350

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 07, 2018, 10:46:03 PM
RedSauce,

I am enjoying your posts, and welcome it when you or others take me out of the Twilight Zone and put me on terra firma, where evidence rules, not what video producers might create to better market their products. I am naturally skeptical about what I see on the Internet when it comes to pizza. That skepticism has come out of experience. More than once, I have seen videos that turned out to be what we would call 'fake" videos today. And in some cases, the videos were taken down by YouTube. Also, in general, people do not know how much work and planning and control of the work product that goes into the production of videos, especially those that end up on cable shows.

But to get back on topic, as I noted earlier, at its website (at http://www.pizzeriaregina.com/), Pizzeria Regina states the following:

Our secret century old recipe uses a special natural yeast and is aged to perfection.

That simple sentence is enough to provoke all kinds of research and analysis. For example, what was in that original century old recipe? Did it include any oil or oil blend, including the ones you mentioned today, or their equivalents? Anthony tells us in one of his PR videos that there is no oil in their dough. What was the "special natural yeast"? To be fair, Anthony tells us that the original recipe was "tweaked" but that the pizzas are the same as were made back in 1926. This statement appears at about 0.26 in the video at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=pMR1Zbp1iWM

But what does tweaking mean? A lot of things have happened to pizza and ingredients since 1926. For example, high gluten flour was not commonly used in 1926. Maybe it was used for bagels, but when I researched the matter I believe that it was somewhere in the 1970s that pizza makers started playing around with high gluten flour for pizzas, most notably in NYC. Of course, fresh yeast was around, even before then, having been created by Charles Fleischmann and his brother sometime in the late 1860s. I am not sure that "tweaking" is the right word to cover all of the many changes since 1926. But I admit that it makes for good salesmanship. But at the same time I don't see the uniqueness of the PR recipe going back to 1926 based on the deference it is given by Anthony and others at PR.

Maybe Pod4477 can stir up the hornets nest by getting in touch with some of the PR employees, maybe using this document that I found on the Internet:

https://www.zoominfo.com/pic/regina-pizzeria/357483350

Peter

Very good point about the recipes and awesome document.  I should contact some of them and see what they say.  Any ideas on how I should word it? 
Since we know what they are using for the cheese due to my cold cheese taste tests, I've been thinking a lot about the tomatoes 🍅.  I have never had Stanislaus 7/11 before.  They were good but there was an odd flavor from them.  Is this normal?  I have used Cento and Pastene San Marzano, Trader Joes Ground, Pastene Kitchen Ready Ground and none of them had that odd flavor.  Was it the citric acid I'm tasting?  What do you guys think would be a close match to PR?  I'd be happy to have a sauce similar to PG or Ernestos.  Pizzashark mentioned Stanislaus, so I'm assuming I should stick with them, but I'm not sure about whether I should use 7/11, Tomato Magic, or the Pizza Sauces they have.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 08, 2018, 10:21:22 AM
Very good point about the recipes and awesome document.  I should contact some of them and see what they say.  Any ideas on how I should word it? 
Since we know what they are using for the cheese due to my cold cheese taste tests, I've been thinking a lot about the tomatoes 🍅.  I have never had Stanislaus 7/11 before.  They were good but there was an odd flavor from them.  Is this normal?  I have used Cento and Pastene San Marzano, Trader Joes Ground, Pastene Kitchen Ready Ground and none of them had that odd flavor.  Was it the citric acid I'm tasting?  What do you guys think would be a close match to PR?  I'd be happy to have a sauce similar to PG or Ernestos.  Pizzashark mentioned Stanislaus, so I'm assuming I should stick with them, but I'm not sure about whether I should use 7/11, Tomato Magic, or the Pizza Sauces they have.
Pod4477,

With respect to Stanislaus and citric acid, this is a topic I have investigated before, including exchanges with Stanislaus itself. You are not the only one who points the finger to citric acid when they don't like a particular Stanislaus tomato product. And Stanislaus has gotten many complaints over the years from users who claimed to have negative reactions to citric acid. The bottom line is that Stanislaus will add some citric acid to its tomato products but only when the naturally occurring citric acid levels are too low. If you look at the ingredients statements for the Stanislaus tomatoes, you will only see reference to naturally occurring citric acid. To get you up to speed on this matter, see the following posts that I have listed in order as I myself got up to speed on the matter:

Reply 20 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=39640.msg420138#msg420138,

Reply 26 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=39640.msg420244#msg420244,

Reply 33 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=39640.msg420265#msg420265,

Reply 36 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=39640.msg420289#msg420289, and

Reply 39 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=39640.msg420289#msg420289.

On the matter of getting in touch with PR employees, I think you might do better speaking to people rather than sending emails because it makes it more difficult for persons to dodge the issue. For example, you might say that you have a lot of allergies and you would like to know what the special natural yeast is in their doughs is, given that the yeast reference is highlighted at their website as something that must be special. How the people respond may tell you something in itself. Emails are easy to dodge, simply by not responding. But they do sometime work. Of course, if you are uncomfortable about these kinds of exchanges, there is no need for you to do it.

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 08, 2018, 03:33:04 PM
Pod4477,

With respect to Stanislaus and citric acid, this is a topic I have investigated before, including exchanges with Stanislaus itself. You are not the only one who points the finger to citric acid when they don't like a particular Stanislaus tomato product. And Stanislaus has gotten many complaints over the years from users who claimed to have negative reactions to citric acid. The bottom line is that Stanislaus will add some citric acid to its tomato products but only when the naturally occurring citric acid levels are too low. If you look at the ingredients statements for the Stanislaus tomatoes, you will only see reference to naturally occurring citric acid. To get you up to speed on this matter, see the following posts that I have listed in order as I myself got up to speed on the matter:

Reply 20 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=39640.msg420138#msg420138,

Reply 26 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=39640.msg420244#msg420244,

Reply 33 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=39640.msg420265#msg420265,

Reply 36 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=39640.msg420289#msg420289, and

Reply 39 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=39640.msg420289#msg420289.

On the matter of getting in touch with PR employees, I think you might do better speaking to people rather than sending emails because it makes it more difficult for persons to dodge the issue. For example, you might say that you have a lot of allergies and you would like to know what the special natural yeast is in their doughs is, given that the yeast reference is highlighted at their website as something that must be special. How the people respond may tell you something in itself. Emails are easy to dodge, simply by not responding. But they do sometime work. Of course, if you are uncomfortable about these kinds of exchanges, there is no need for you to do it.

Peter

Very interesting about Stanislaus. I remember pizza shark mentioning PR sauce being full of citric acid. Iíve tried adding some myself to Pastene and it seems to sometimes workout good. Do you think the citric acid cooks out at higher temps or long bakes? Their oven is only at 480į in Braintree though. I suspect my cook the other night was too low temp with the gas to cook the tomatoes enough, resulting in them tasting raw and full of acid. I remember Lynwood being the only place to give me heartburn, so maybe theirs contain a lot of citric acid that isnít baked off? Thank you for the links; Iíll catch up.

Good point about asking them directly. This is what I usually do, but good to have their names. Funny thing is I talked to whom I assume is the manager of Big Yís pizza section, and he said he manages some PR locations. Their pizza reminded me of PR but itís definitely different. He of course wouldnít give away any secrets but was a nice guy. Theyíre using the Unbromated All Trumps, Stanislaus Pizzaiolo (if I remember right) and Sorrento Mozzarella/Provolone/Romano blend. The look of it reminded me of PR but I donít think their cold fermenting the dough so it comes out pale and very unique tasting. It doesnít taste raw, but tastes almost chemically. Strange, but he definitely knows the pizza operation. You can see the dough balls sitting out in racks.

As for PR, Iím going to get a white slice and a regular cheese slice and compare. Good example about food allergies as almost everyone has them these days and they must get a lot of questions on that.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 08, 2018, 04:52:07 PM
Pod4477,

As I understand it from doing a search, citric acid decomposes through the loss of carbon dioxide and water when the temperature gets above about 350 degrees F. I don't know what temperature the tomatoes in the sauce typically gets during, especially when covered by cheese and toppings.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 08, 2018, 07:50:08 PM
Pod4477,

As I understand it from doing a search, citric acid decomposes through the loss of carbon dioxide and water when the temperature gets above about 350 degrees F. I don't know what temperature the tomatoes in the sauce typically gets during, especially when covered by cheese and toppings.

Peter

Thanks Peter! I suspect the citric acid wasnít disapating from low oven temps. This never happened when I was cooking at 600į+.

Well I have finally found the source of the aroma and taste! I got a pizza with only cheese and a slice of regular cheese pizza. The unique flavor of Regina is definitely the sauce. The sauce is the source of the wonderful aroma and taste, but itís not just the tomatoes. It has to be a spice or oil in the sauce that is giving it the unique taste. I suspect sage, Oregeno, or bay leaves. Iím sure many NY pizza people know more about herbsí role in sauce. Iíve cooked with Sicilian and Greek Oregeno before, but the flavor seems different.  Whatever is being used, itís predominant. I donít believe itís the Romano, because the Romano isnít very noticeable to me in the sauce.

Observations and conclusions (for now):
1.  The cheese on the pizza turned out to be only mozzarella. I donít think there is anything crazy being done with regards to aging, but it definitely has a butter flavor added. The flavor is that of buttered popcorn and the aftertaste is that oily butter feel after movie theatre popcorn. No other pizza place around here I believe does this, so thatís why itís so unique to me. Makes sense because of the cold cheese taste test.

2.  Crust is very good but much blander without sauce on top of it. The crumb definitely reminds me of oil based doughs and they definitely have the most flavorful crust around here these days. The crumb almost has a buttery taste to it, but very comparable to just good Italian bread. Iíd say my dough is close and itís good to know the mystery aroma and taste are not coming from the crust, but rather the sauce that spilled onto the crust.  The 3-6 day cold ferment must be the source (along with maybe oil) of the superior dough compared to other places.

3.  The wheat taste is mainly from the Miallard reaction.  The oven is good but nothing crazy and itís not imparting the mystery flavor, besides browning the crust to give it that wheat taste. Honestly the white pie tasted just like PG cheese bread minus the spices. Interesting side note, the crust after being left out for hours reminded me of the Big Y crust, so Iím assuming I just got an old slice at big Y and it had become stale leading to the odd taste. Both were pale looking so maybe thatís why too.

4.  What I thought was a flavor from the oven turned out to be a flavor from the sauce.  The base flavor of the sauce does taste like 7/11 from Stanislaus, but maybe closer to Tomato Magic. The smell I talked about when I open the box is coming mainly from the tomatoes, with some smell coming from whatever butter additive is on the cheese. Something thatís always tripped me up is their sauce doesnít taste like other peopleís sauce. There is some overwhelming flavor. My guess is a sweet or savory herb, possibly sage or bay leaves, are what give it its signature smell and taste. Any ideas on the spice or oil that could be giving it this flavor? Iíve definitely tasted it in NY pies before and maybe it could be oregano.  Tricky thing is none of the Greek shops around here are using this flavor, so it seems to be only select Italian places.  No wonder why Iíve noticed a similar flavor from different sauces before. I tasted Denly Gardens last week, and while it was very flavorful with herbs in the sauce, it didnít have the certain flavor of PR. The mystery flavor is so strong, the little bit of sauce left in my pizza box from weeks ago is still used in smell tests.  :-D Wonder what it could be!
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 09, 2018, 06:25:38 AM


Well I have finally found the source of the aroma and taste! I got a pizza with only cheese and a slice of regular cheese pizza. The unique flavor of Regina is definitely the sauce. The sauce is the source of the wonderful aroma and taste, but itís not just the tomatoes. It has to be a spice or oil in the sauce that is giving it the unique taste. I suspect sage, Oregeno, or bay leaves. Iím sure many NY pizza people know more about herbsí role in sauce. Iíve cooked with Sicilian and Greek Oregeno before, but the flavor seems different.  Whatever is being used, itís predominant. I donít believe itís the Romano, because the Romano isnít very noticeable to me in the sauce.

Observations and conclusions (for now):
1.  The cheese on the pizza turned out to be only mozzarella. I donít think there is anything crazy being done with regards to aging, but it definitely has a butter flavor added. The flavor is that of buttered popcorn and the aftertaste is that oily butter feel after movie theatre popcorn. No other pizza place around here I believe does this, so thatís why itís so unique to me. Makes sense because of the cold cheese taste test.

2.  Crust is very good but much blander without sauce on top of it. The crumb definitely reminds me of oil based doughs and they definitely have the most flavorful crust around here these days. The crumb almost has a buttery taste to it, but very comparable to just good Italian bread. Iíd say my dough is close and itís good to know the mystery aroma and taste are not coming from the crust, but rather the sauce that spilled onto the crust.  The 3-6 day cold ferment must be the source (along with maybe oil) of the superior dough compared to other places.

3.  The wheat taste is mainly from the Miallard reaction.  The oven is good but nothing crazy and itís not imparting the mystery flavor, besides browning the crust to give it that wheat taste. Honestly the white pie tasted just like PG cheese bread minus the spices. Interesting side note, the crust after being left out for hours reminded me of the Big Y crust, so Iím assuming I just got an old slice at big Y and it had become stale leading to the odd taste. Both were pale looking so maybe thatís why too.

4.  What I thought was a flavor from the oven turned out to be a flavor from the sauce.  The base flavor of the sauce does taste like 7/11 from Stanislaus, but maybe closer to Tomato Magic. The smell I talked about when I open the box is coming mainly from the tomatoes, with some smell coming from whatever butter additive is on the cheese. Something thatís always tripped me up is their sauce doesnít taste like other peopleís sauce. There is some overwhelming flavor. My guess is a sweet or savory herb, possibly sage or bay leaves, are what give it its signature smell and taste. Any ideas on the spice or oil that could be giving it this flavor? Iíve definitely tasted it in NY pies before and maybe it could be oregano.  Tricky thing is none of the Greek shops around here are using this flavor, so it seems to be only select Italian places.  No wonder why Iíve noticed a similar flavor from different sauces before. I tasted Denly Gardens last week, and while it was very flavorful with herbs in the sauce, it didnít have the certain flavor of PR. The mystery flavor is so strong, the little bit of sauce left in my pizza box from weeks ago is still used in smell tests.  :-D Wonder what it could be!

Pod4477,

Glad to hear you found that the sauce is a main key to PR's pizzas.  Great idea that you tried a plain cheese slice!  8)

Frank Giaquinto says in a lot of his videos that the sauce is what really flavors a pizza, more than the cheese, but cheese is important too.  Many customers tell me they like my sauce and it is what makes my pizzas different from others they have tried.  I do use oil and herbs, plus some sugar in the sauce.  PR has their own unique sauce.  So does Mack's pizza have their own signature sauce that makes their pizzas unique, along with their herbs.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 09, 2018, 09:50:57 AM
Pod4477,

Is it possible that the cheese pizza you got from PR had garlic sauce added?  When I went back to the PR menu at http://www.reginapizzeria.com/downloads/menus/regina%20allston%20full%20menu%201%202015.pdf, I did not see a cheese pizza listed but in the Vegetarian section I saw reference to using garlic sauce for the #23 White Pizza. In terms of herbs, I saw oregano, parsley, Italian parsley, and fresh basil on the menu. I did not see any other herbs listed.

As for the PR pizza sauce, according to Chef Louis Hubbell in one of the videos in which he appeared he said that it was only tomatoes, basil and Pecorino Romano cheese. By any chance, have you ever asked at a PR location for some of their sauce on the side so that you or a family member (such as a child) can dip the crust into the sauce? That way, you can examine the sauce more carefully without interference of other pizza flavors and ingredients.

I also notice that the famous PR dough recipe keeps getting older. In one of the videos in which Anthony appeared, he said that the recipe was almost 90 years old. Later in the same video, he said that the recipe was almost 100 years old. At the PR website at http://www.pizzeriaregina.com/, there is a statement Our secret century old recipe. This gives us pause to consider what other things that are said that might not be correct, either innocently or intentionally.

On another matter, I went to the website for Dirty Media, which produced some of the videos featuring PR. I saw this page at the Dirty Media website that explains what Dirty Media does:

http://dirtywatermedia.com/advertise-with-dirty-water-media/

I also went to the Wicked Bites website since they featured videos about PR. As can be seen at http://www.nedine.com/supporters/, Regina Pizzeria is listed as a supporter. So, one hand helps the other.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 09, 2018, 01:36:51 PM
Norma,
Thank you, Iím happy I thought of it before I ordered, but had to get a whole pie with no sauce. Was still delicious and essentially cheese bread from PG or Dominos without the added garlic and herbs. Thanks for the the insight into your sauce! I never knew just how important the sauce was. I would agree that itís a very important factor, along with cheese. I thought PR was using less ingredients in theirs but it canít be. I suspect they are using similar ingredients to yours. Iím sure your pizza and sauce are killer!

Peter,
Thank you! Good point about the garlic sauce, and thatís why I made sure to order a pizza with just cheese no sauce. It tasted very plain but with a hint of that buttery taste from my cold cheese taste tests. Thank you for reminding me about the basil added. Maybe the worker mixed up basil for bay leaf, because I do see a green leaf in there sometimes. Iím having trouble putting my finger on the mystery herb or oil. I should ask for some sauce next time now that I know itís the source of one of the mystery smells/tastes. The cheese was the other mystery until I had some cold. I believe PR isnít the only one using this ingredient as Iíve tasted it before. I always assumed it was the cheese being caramalized from the oven, because the flavor feels savory to me, but itís something in the sauce. Iím going to try out different herbs today along with different oils in some Pastene tomatoes. It must be a common ingredient because I know Iíve tasted it before.
Haha I was just thinking that about the dough the other day I swear. I saw the napkin that says century old and though ďthatís even older than 90 years.Ē  My Grandma is 99 years old who grew up in Boston, so she must have had PR. She uses Pastene as well!  Very interesting about Dirty Water Media and Wicked Bites. PR  definitely seems very connected advertisement wise. Good investigative work, as we see that PRís videos are very promotion driven. My gut feeling is that all you guys on here have documented a very spot on clone dough. Getting it with no sauce really helped me see what it tastes and smells like on its own. The crust is definitely good enough to eat just as bread though.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 09, 2018, 03:06:11 PM
Pod4477:

I found another video featuring PR as of 2010:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-TXgIQ8ID4

And there is a little bit of history here: http://pizzahalloffame.com/regina-pizzeria/#lightbox[997]/1/

And this item, at the bottom, mentions using a drizzle of garlic oil on the pizza:

https://www.ezcater.com/sem/brand/pizzeria-regina

Finally, I think you will like to listen to this interview with Anthony about the PR pizza, and especially the part about aging the cheese (and a few other tidbits), at:

https://www.spreaker.com/user/fooddrinktravel/food-drink-travel-episode-21

The actual interview starts at about 2:32 and ends at about 13:47.

Further, with respect to the aging of mozzarella cheese, see this explanation: https://www.delcofoods.com/our-products/tips/cheese-aging/

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 09, 2018, 09:10:28 PM
Pod4477:

I found another video featuring PR as of 2010:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-TXgIQ8ID4

And there is a little bit of history here: http://pizzahalloffame.com/regina-pizzeria/#lightbox[997]/1/

And this item, at the bottom, mentions using a drizzle of garlic oil on the pizza:

https://www.ezcater.com/sem/brand/pizzeria-regina

Finally, I think you will like to listen to this interview with Anthony about the PR pizza, and especially the part about aging the cheese (and a few other tidbits), at:

https://www.spreaker.com/user/fooddrinktravel/food-drink-travel-episode-21

The actual interview starts at about 1:32 and ends at about 13:47.

Further, with respect to the aging of mozzarella cheese, see this explanation: https://www.delcofoods.com/our-products/tips/cheese-aging/

Peter

I donít know how you find these links, but Iím very happy lol. Iíll have to try the Medford location in the video. So 2-4 weeks is the aging standard. Anthony seems like a really cool and nice guy, and he loves mentioning the aged cheese so Iím assuming itís aged, but doesnít seem very yellow so maybe itís minorly aged. Awesome links. I noticed herbs in the sauce so Iím going to guess that is the flavor Iím after. There is basil in the sauce but I donít think thatís the major flavor. I never noticed the little herbs in the sauce but it looks like Oregano. The garlic sauce find is very tough to find, and it could be part of the flavor. Iíve never seen them drizzle it so it would have to be in the sauce. Iím guessing the herbs are a typical Italian blend. My tests will include Dried  and Fresh Oregeno, Fresh and Dried Basil, Fresh and Dried thyme, Fresh and Dried Bay leaves, Fresh and Ground Onion, Fresh and Dried Garlic/Roasted Garlic, as well as Fennel Seed.  I donít believe itís Sage but it could be Savory.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 10, 2018, 10:39:45 AM
Pod4477,

Based on what we have been told by Anthony and other PR employees (mainly Richie Zapata and Louis Hubbell) in videos and interviews and at the PR website, this is what I come up with as a summary:

1. The recipes used by PR, with some tweaking (according to Anthony), go back to 1926, with the objective of making pizzas today as they were made back in 1926 (the crust is said to be based on a secret family recipe). However, when Richie Zapata was asked in an interview whether the pizza recipe changed over time, he said: No. Absolutely not. Our toppings have changed, and we've added more of them, but the recipe is still the same. But, in general, in the videos, Richie has been guarded about revealing details on the dough and sauce. Back in 1926, there were limited pizzas available at PR, but one of those was a cheese pizza with mozzarella.

2. The PR dough: The dough for all of the PR locations is made in a commissary in Woburn, MA. According to Anthony, the dough is aged for 6-7 days such that a dough made on a Monday morning is not used at the store level until Thursday or Friday. Part of the aging of the dough takes place at the commissary, with the rest of the aging (about two days) taking place at the store level. The dough at the store level is also "proofed" before using to get the dough to be bubbly. According to the PR website, the dough include a "special natural yeast". However, that yeast is never mentioned in the videos. There are some who believe the special natural yeast to be some form of fresh yeast. Anthony states that the dough does not include any oil, but rather the oil comes from the cheese. The flour used to make the dough is a high gluten flour. Richie Zapata says that the dough ball used to make a 16" pizza weighs about a pound.

3. The PR sauce: The PR sauce is based on using canned Stanislaus tomatoes, supplied under contract with Stanislaus. The tomatoes are delivered to the PR commissary. No water is added to the tomatoes by Stanislaus. According to Anthony, the water is added by PR. According to Louis Hubbell, in addition to added water, the sauce comprises "a little bit" of grated Pecorino Romano cheese and "a little bit" of fresh basil.

4. The PR cheese: The cheese used by PR is a blend that includes whole milk (called "full cream" by Anthony) mozzarella cheese. The blend is a proprietary blend prepared especially for PR by The Empire subsidiary of Great Lakes Cheese in Cuba, NY. The cheese is in block form and, as shown in one of the videos, is shredded daily at the store level. According to Anthony, the cheese is aged for at least 23 days. With a shelf life that is most likely longer than 23 days, if the cheese is properly handled (e.g., under refrigeration), it is quite like likely that the cheese is fresh and not frozen.

Did I get everything right and have I forgotten anything? If so, I can correct what I posted above.

Peter

Edit (10/25/18): For comments by member Pizza Shark, a former PR employee, on aspects of PR's tomatoes and sauce, see Reply 224 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54120.msg548625#msg548625
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 10, 2018, 12:49:06 PM
Pod4477,

Based on what we have been told by Anthony and other PR employees (mainly Richie Zapata and Louis Hubbell) in videos and interviews and at the PR website, this is what I come up with as a summary:

1. The recipes used by PR, with some tweaking (according to Anthony), go back to 1926, with the objective of making pizzas today as they were made back in 1926. However, when Richie Zapata was asked in an interview whether the pizza recipe changed over time, he said: No. Absolutely not. Our toppings have changed, and we've added more of them, but the recipe is still the same. But, in general, in the videos, Richie has been guarded about revealing details on the dough and sauce. Back in 1926, there were limited pizzas available at PR, but one of those was a cheese pizza with mozzarella.

2. The PR dough: The dough for all of the PR locations is made in a commissary in Woburn, MA. According to Anthony, the dough is aged for 6-7 days such that a dough made on a Monday morning is not used at the store level until Thursday or Friday. Part of the aging of the dough takes place at the commissary, with the rest of the aging (about two days) taking place at the store level. The dough at the store level is also "proofed" before using to get the dough to be bubbly. According to the PR website, the dough include a "special natural yeast". However, that yeast is never mentioned in the videos. There are some who believe the special natural yeast to be some form of fresh yeast. Anthony states that the dough does not include any oil, but rather the oil comes from the cheese. The flour used to make the dough is a high gluten flour. Richie Zapata says that the dough ball used to make a 16" pizza weighs about a pound.

3. The PR sauce: The PR sauce is based on using canned Stanislaus tomatoes, supplied under contract with Stanislaus. The tomatoes are delivered to the PR commissary. No water is added to the tomatoes by Stanislaus. According to Anthony, the water is added by PR. According to Louis Hubbell, in addition to added water, the sauce comprises "a little bit" of grated Pecorino Romano cheese and a "little bit" of fresh basil.

4. The cheese: The cheese used by PR is a blend that includes whole milk (called "full cream" by Anthony) mozzarella cheese. The blend is a proprietary blend prepared especially for PR by The Empire subsidiary of Great Lakes Cheese in Cuba, NY. The cheese is in block form and, as shown in one of the videos, is shredded at the store level. According to Anthony, the cheese is aged for at least 23 days. 

Did I get everything right and have I forgotten anything? If so, I can correct what I posted above.

Peter

Awesome summary! I don't believe you forgot anything.  I didn't realize they add water until the tomatoes are at the commissary.  Also, interesting they ship out to celebs.  I found the mystery aroma and taste: Sicilian Oregano.  I've had some growing for months, but just never used enough of it.  That's the smell when you walk up to the place and the wonderful taste.  I found what looked like Oregano under the cheese, but Greek Oregano didn't match up.  Sicilian is definitely it.

The cheese being aged does seem important and the dough seems interesting.  I wonder if they do use oil or not.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 10, 2018, 04:14:41 PM
I wonder if they do use oil or not.
Pod4477,

I would think that Anthony would know. And he says no. Otherwise, why would he point the finger at the oil in the cheese? There is no shame in using oil in the dough. It is a very common thing. Also, remember what Anthony said on August 22, 2000:

After recieving an e-mail from a member asking about the use of peanut oil in our dough, I inquired about the contents of the oil. According to Catania-Spagna Corporation, the oil used in the dough at Pizzeria Regina contains a blend of Cottonseed, Soybean and Pure Olive Oil.
Anthony Buccieri Vice President of Operations Boston Restaurant Associates


I personally don't think he is hiding anything today. But is getting rid of the oil in the dough another "tweak" from the 1926 recipes?

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norcoscia on October 10, 2018, 04:33:35 PM
Remember Cersei's Walk of Shame from "game of thrones" - rummer has it she mentioned using oil in some flatbread - true story (just kidding)
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 10, 2018, 05:40:05 PM
He does seem like a straight up good guy, and heís been very forthcoming about where they get the tomatoes and cheese from, so youíre right in trusting him and I should too.  Good point as it could be a ďtweak,Ē and I wonder if they removed it to cut costs. I did a side by side comparison between PR crumb, Chateauís Italian Bread, and Bertuccisí Rolls. Now, I donít know a ton about bread or dough, but PR was much more flavorful in the crumb than both of those. This could be from many factors of course, so it may not be oil. Maybe itís just the 3-6 day cold ferment and water making it tender. I believe the dough is on the dryer side, and after looking at the doughs being opened, they look like somewhere around 50-60% hydration for sure. I know this is typical of NY pizza though.

Haha game of thrones!  That made me chuckle.

I bought two oreganos from the North End today. Both dried; one Sicilian and one Italian. The Sicilian tasted similar to Greek Oregeno to me, but the Italian tasted similar to my fresh Sicilian Oregeno. The fresh Sicilian and Dried Italian oregano 🌿 have such a sweet flavor and I believe thatís what Iím tasting in PR sauce.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: RedSauce on October 10, 2018, 07:55:55 PM
Pod4477,

I think you're really on the right track now. I was going to suggest basil as a key flavor element, as has now been mentioned. PR has actually admitted (with remarkable candor) that basil and Pecorino Romano are put into the sauce. I tend to believe they're not attempting to mislead.

I'd suggest that they're getting one of those Stanislaus tomato products that is as thick as paste and intended to be watered down. They save enormous amounts of storage space and shipping costs by not having the water component trucked across the country.

Not sure about PR, but the oregano is generally applied after the sauce layer and before cheese and toppings. So, I'd guess you have some basil or a basil leaf in the can casting its influence from the packing point, and oregano going on just prior to bake. It also seems there have been too many mentions of oil to confidently assume they're not using any in the dough.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 10, 2018, 11:37:58 PM
Pod4477,

I think you're really on the right track now. I was going to suggest basil as a key flavor element, as has now been mentioned. PR has actually admitted (with remarkable candor) that basil and Pecorino Romano are put into the sauce. I tend to believe they're not attempting to mislead.

I'd suggest that they're getting one of those Stanislaus tomato products that is as thick as paste and intended to be watered down. They save enormous amounts of storage space and shipping costs by not having the water component trucked across the country.

Not sure about PR, but the oregano is generally applied after the sauce layer and before cheese and toppings. So, I'd guess you have some basil or a basil leaf in the can casting its influence from the packing point, and oregano going on just prior to bake. It also seems there have been too many mentions of oil to confidently assume they're not using any in the dough.

Thank you and basil is definitely affecting the sauce. I asked if they have basil in the sauce and they said they do come in the can, so maybe the worker there meant basil last week when they said bay leaf. Youíre right about the thick as paste Tomatoes, as COO Anthony confirmed it in one of the links. Makes sense because they told me they add water. What I couldnít figure out is when they said they add water, I wondered if that was at the store or commissary. Anthony confirmed it was at the commissary.

As for the oregano, Pizzashark mentioned it and so far everything he said was true  :chef: I never doubted him, I just always thought he meant Greek oregano. It could be but I donít get the sweet taste from Greek that I do Italian or Sicilian. Itís amazing, when I smell the pizza, itís the Oregeno that stands out so much, as well as the buttery cheese.  The oregano was found under the cheese so yup youíre right it looks like itís added on the sauce. The thing is, Iíve never seen them sprinkle it, so maybe they throw it in the big tub of sauce.

I wonder about the oil too and if they got rid of it due to costs. You guys would be able to tell better than me. May have to ship out some pizza like they do for Adam Sandler :P
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Zing on October 10, 2018, 11:49:21 PM
When I posted I detected the taste of wine in a sample of Shakey's pizza sauce, others ruled it out. But that exercise led me to the world of industrial flavors, such as liquid "grill flavor" that hamburger patty manufacturers add to raw meat before freezing them or delivering them fresh to restaurants. I'm think Ragu pasta sauce uses these industrial flavors. While you my be able to find something like garlic sauce, getting these other products is really tough.

About herbs and spices, remember many are sold as ground varieties. I use ground oregano in my sauce. Ground herbs and spices can not be detected if the sauce is "washed".
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 11, 2018, 03:13:39 AM
When I posted I detected the taste of wine in a sample of Shakey's pizza sauce, others ruled it out. But that exercise led me to the world of industrial flavors, such as liquid "grill flavor" that hamburger patty manufacturers add to raw meat before freezing them or delivering them fresh to restaurants. I'm think Ragu pasta sauce uses these industrial flavors. While you my be able to find something like garlic sauce, getting these other products is really tough.

About herbs and spices, remember many are sold as ground varieties. I use ground oregano in my sauce. Ground herbs and spices can not be detected if the sauce is "washed".

Very interesting! Good find with the wine. Iíve used wine for a while in sauce and Iíve also noticed a local Italian Resturant La Scala uses a ton of oil in their sauce. I bought a jar and the amount of oil is staggering. Years ago I couldnít figure out why their sauce was orange or pink, but itís definitely some sort of oil, maybe just olive or a cheaper oil. It is amazing all the industrial flavors used. Does Burger King use the grill flavor on their burgers too?

Thatís a good point about ground and Iím a big fan of ground spices. I found some little leaves of what looks like oregano on my PR slice, but yeah there could be ground as well, because the smell is pretty frangrant. A post on the ingredient thread made me think about going back and tasting my fresh Sicilian Oregeno, and I suspect La Scala may be using it as well in a ground form. Thank you also, because I forgot that just because you canít see it, doesnít mean itís not in the sauce. I always thought PR sauce reminded me of a sauce from some of these Italian restaurants and I should have realized Oregeno and maybe oil. Iím not a big fan of Greek oregano so thatís why it took me so long to realize. I bet ground spices are why my Ernestoís slice I had today didnít have any flakes on it, but tasted rice and spice filled.

I wonder if PR is using oil in their sauce too, because when I ate La Scala I noted flavors that reminded me of NY pizza. For years I had tasted a ďmysteryĒ flavor that I always thought was just from an old oven imparting flavor, but now I know itís the sauce (either the oil or oregano in the sauce). Since La Scala uses a lot of oil and probably oregano, I wonder if the similar ďovenĒ taste of PR is also the oil and/or oregeno. My reasoning in the past for thinking the certain ďovenĒ flavor was from the oven, was mainly that I thought it was the brick oven caramelizing the cheese.  Once I got a cheese only pizza that hypothesis was proved to be wrong, and I realized the ďoven mystery flavorĒ was in the sauce. Amazing what spices or oil can do to a sauce and then once itís cooked create sharp flavor notes. Sorry this was so long. At least Iíve narrowed it down to the sauce and I believe either oil or oregano are the key flavors in the sauce. Nothing ground breaking here though as this seems to be a pretty similar pie to NY pizza after all. Both are from the 1920ís, one state away, and full of Italian immigrants so I can see why.

Now I must think of the best way to incorporate oil/Oregeno in a similar manner as PR. Iíll probably use the microwave method to release the oils and then infuse the sauce with them. I could either refrigerate for days, do a partially cooked sauce, or just add them in for a bit on the counter to blend together. Since their sauce is only cooked once before the canning, I may stick to cooking it only in the oven. Iím assuming the cans come into the commissary as a paste like form, as previously mentioned, and then the commissary is adding water, maybe oil, and oregano. I could essentially do the same thing, and if the locations are adding oregano to the plastic sauce container, even easier.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 11, 2018, 06:45:44 AM

Thatís a good point about ground and Iím a big fan of ground spices. I found some little leaves of what looks like oregano on my PR slice, but yeah there could be ground as well, because the smell is pretty frangrant. A post on the ingredient thread made me think about going back and tasting my fresh Sicilian Oregeno, and I suspect La Scala may be using it as well in a ground form. Thank you also, because I forgot that just because you canít see it, doesnít mean itís not in the sauce. I always thought PR sauce reminded me of a sauce from some of these Italian restaurants and I should have realized Oregeno and maybe oil. Iím not a big fan of Greek oregano so thatís why it took me so long to realize. I bet ground spices are why my Ernestoís slice I had today didnít have any flakes on it, but tasted rice and spice filled.

I wonder if PR is using oil in their sauce too, because when I ate La Scala I noted flavors that reminded me of NY pizza. For years I had tasted a ďmysteryĒ flavor that I always thought was just from an old oven imparting flavor, but now I know itís the sauce (either the oil or oregano in the sauce). Since La Scala uses a lot of oil and probably oregano, I wonder if the similar ďovenĒ taste of PR is also the oil and/or oregeno. My reasoning in the past for thinking the certain ďovenĒ flavor was from the oven, was mainly that I thought it was the brick oven caramelizing the cheese.  Once I got a cheese only pizza that hypothesis was proved to be wrong, and I realized the ďoven mystery flavorĒ was in the sauce. Amazing what spices or oil can do to a sauce and then once itís cooked create sharp flavor notes. Sorry this was so long. At least Iíve narrowed it down to the sauce and I believe either oil or oregano are the key flavors in the sauce. Nothing ground breaking here though as this seems to be a pretty similar pie to NY pizza after all. Both are from the 1920ís, one state away, and full of Italian immigrants so I can see why.

Now I must think of the best way to incorporate oil/Oregeno in a similar manner as PR. Iíll probably use the microwave method to release the oils and then infuse the sauce with them. I could either refrigerate for days, do a partially cooked sauce, or just add them in for a bit on the counter to blend together. Since their sauce is only cooked once before the canning, I may stick to cooking it only in the oven. Iím assuming the cans come into the commissary as a paste like form, as previously mentioned, and then the commissary is adding water, maybe oil, and oregano. I could essentially do the same thing, and if the locations are adding oregano to the plastic sauce container, even easier.

Pod4477,

Since you said you found some little leaves that look like oregano on your PR slice, maybe they might be adding it to their sauce even though they say they aren't.

This link does show a #26 Melanzane pizza spiced with oregano.

https://www.zomato.com/boston/regina-pizzaria-boston/menu

A side note on oregano's.  I was on the hunt for a certain Greek oregano for many years.  I wanted the Greek oregano to be sweet but have the great taste of a good oregano.  Many of the Greek oregano's I purchased or planted were not what I was looking for in terms of taste  Finally found it when my nephew gave me some Greek oregano then dried it, then ground it up in a mini-processor at Reply 17
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49241.msg544264#msg544264

Also tried many types of stick Italian/Sicilian oregano's.  Each kind has a different taste.  Not saying the Greek oregano I have now is what you are looking for, but even different Italian/Sicilian dried stick oregano's do have different tastes.  Some are sweet and some are not.

Another side is I use Stanislaus Saporito with fresh basil, but add another Stanislaus product.   

https://www.stanislaus.com/_pdfs/Saporito-Pizza-Sauce-w-Fresh-Basil.pdf

Stanislaus says not to add water to any of their sauces, but The Saporito is very thick like paste.  Water is needed if using just the Saporito and even if it is thinned some with another Stanislaus product.  Stanislaus recommends thinning any of their tomato products with enough of another tomato product.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 11, 2018, 10:38:35 AM
Pod4477,

What Norma says about Stanislaus is correct. They tend to discourage users from adding water to their products although that is commonly done by professionals. And if you look at the recipes given at the Stanislaus website, you will not see water added to their tomato products. Steve Rouse, who works for Stanislaus, talked about this practice at the PMQ Think Tank at:

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/lost-in-the-sauce-experts.16/#post-175

On the other hand, Escalon, which also cans fresh-pack tomato products, has a few recipes where water is added to their products. An example is this one:

http://www.escalon.net/recipes/Sicilian-Style-Pizza-Sauce

In addition to the Saporito sauce that Norma mentioned, Stanislaus also has another product that also has a basil leaf. It is their Full-Red Pizza Sauce With Basil:

https://www.stanislaus.com/_pdfs/Full-Red-Pizza-Sauce-w-Fresh-Basil.pdf

Professionals will also mix that product with water although one has to be careful that the sauce doesn't become too watery and thin. They also will often combine  two tomato products and also add water. It all depends on what they are trying to achieve. The PMQ Think Tank is loaded with posts on this subject. Here are some examples of threads on the subject:

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/why-add-water-to-your-sauce.17228/#post-104247,

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/what-sould-i-add-to-a-can-of-stanislaus-saporito.5134/#post-94889,

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/pizza-sause-very-thin.14569/#post-89335,

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/pizza-sauce-questions.10357/#post-71315, and

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/questions-about-sauce.13517/#post-83364.

You mentioned that Anthony said that the water is added at the commissary. I do not recall hearing that. In the podcast interview where Anthony said that they added the water to the Stanislaus product they used he said that was done "in the Boston area". It seems to me that the water would best be added at the store level because once a can is opened up and water added, the sauce has to be preserved in some fashion, for example, by refrigerating. Once that is done, the clock starts ticking. I have read that the window for use is anywhere from 3-7 days. Tom Lehmann says 3-4 days:

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/garlic-butter-in-dough-recipe.15722/#post-102912

Maybe I missed where else Anthony talked about adding water to their Stanislaus tomatoes but where I first became aware of that step it was in the podcast interview.

Peter


Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 11, 2018, 02:38:10 PM
Thank you guys. I will have to try out both products. Iíve seen them, but havenít tried them yet. Makes sense not to add water because of diluting and thinning, so I could mix two together like Norma mentioned. Very interesting about the Greek oregano. I like mine sweet as well, and the two oreganos I tried yesterday were very different from each other. Thank you; Iíll have to look into that link Norma.

Thank you Peter and youíre right. I assumed Boston area meant the commissary but the restaurant makes more sense. I should have known that once the can is opened itís a ticking time bomb. They did tell me at Braintree that they add water, so Iím assuming they do it there too. I am also figuring they add the oregano in with the sauce as I havenít seen them do it in any steps making the pizza in front of me. Iím going to try both of the tomato cans mentioned this week, along with some buffalo sauces.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 11, 2018, 04:14:46 PM
Pod4477,

On the matter of the herbs, can you tell us what herb is shown at 1:20 in the video at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=pMR1Zbp1iWM

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 11, 2018, 06:58:00 PM
Pod4477,

On the matter of the herbs, can you tell us what herb is shown at 1:20 in the video at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=pMR1Zbp1iWM

Peter
Haha! Oh wow didnít even notice that the first time watching it. That fresh product appears to be oregano!🌿 Awesome find. Do you think they were cutting up the tomatoes and picking the oregano leaves off in that manner for demonstration?
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 11, 2018, 08:16:16 PM
Haha! Oh wow didnít even notice that the first time watching it. That fresh product appears to be oregano!🌿 Awesome find. Do you think they were cutting up the tomatoes and picking the oregano leaves off in that manner for demonstration?
Pod4477,

If I were to hazard a guess, I would say that the fresh oregano was used in the video as another example of the freshness of the ingredients used by PR in making its pizzas. When I revisited the PR menu tonight, I saw a few pizzas that included oregano but the descriptions did not say whether it was fresh or dried. If I were to guess, I would say that the oregano is most likely dry. Fresh oregano is harder to source year round whereas dried oregano is very easy to source, and cheaper at that. I also looked at other food dishes that PR sells to see if any called for oregano but I did not find any, in either dry or fresh form. So, maybe the fresh oregano shown in the video was for promotional purposes. In that vein, if you look at the pepperoni pizza at about 1:55 in the video, I would say that that pepperoni pizza is a "fake" pizza  :-D. I say that because I never saw a photo of an actual PR pepperoni pizza taken at one of the PR restaurants for customers that had the pepperoni slices arranged in such an organized way. So, I think that view, as well as a similar one at the beginning of the video at

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjXvEpVRTDA,

was part of the PR marketing. But at least PR is not cheap with the pepperoni. They use a lot.

Getting back to the matter of freshness, I recalled that in the podcast interview, which I also revisited tonight, Anthony said that they used fresh ingredients, which is something that his Uncle Polcari had always emphasized. And then Anthony added, "none of this frozen stuff". That last comment got me thinking about the PR cheese. I had speculated that it was most likely frozen cheese that "aged" as it defrosted, but tonight I recalled that many years ago, when I was trying to reverse engineer and clone the Jet's pizza, I had read about the aging of mozzarella cheese at the Grande Cheese website, and also that Grande specified use by dates. So, I went back to the Grande website and saw discussions about aging of their cheeses. And among the material I saw at the Grande website was a spec sheet for their cheeses. That spec sheet is:

https://www.grandecheese.com/products/pdf/grande_product_details

If you look at the specs for the mozzarella cheese, in loaf form, which is also the form used by PR (and shown in one of the videos), you will see that the shelf life is 42 days. No doubt, the cheese that PR uses also has a shelf life and quite likely a long one. Anthony said in the podcast interview that their cheese was aged for at least 23 days, implying that it could be longer. What this says to me is that by the time that Great Lakes makes the cheese for PR and delivers it to PR's distributor, the cheese can be fresh and be readily amenable to aging for a long time. I should also note at this point that Grande says that their cheese should be kept refrigerated as much as possible and never frozen. This is stated in the abovereferenced spec sheets. All of this leads me to believe that PR follows practices such as recommended by Grande and that their cheese is fresh and not frozen.

FYI, I went back to my "summary" post and edited the discussion of the PR cheese to emphasize its freshness, as opposed to freezing.

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: RedSauce on October 12, 2018, 05:31:18 PM
I'll hazard another bet that PR is thinning something like Saporito with water. I don't know what "tomato product" you could use to get to a working consistency - the stuff is like cement. Pizza operators I've seen dilute and stir until they've got their preferred thickness. They add water because water is what was taken out of it to achieve the concentrated state.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 13, 2018, 12:20:27 AM
Very good points Peter. I suspect they are using dried oregano as well. I used some tonight but I felt that I used too much. PR is very generous with their pepperoni, but I bet that pizza was fake too haha. Youíre on the right track with it not being frozen I suspect. Very good points about the cheese being fresh. I wonder if anything is out on it though to prevent clumping throughout the day. So I made two pies. One was a 60% Dough with .625% yeast and one 52% with .20% yeast. Both came out very good but the 60% warmed up quicker since I pushed it down into a flat disc like PR does. My sauce isnít quite right yet; do you think PR is using sugar in their sauce?  Their sauce seems to have a certain smoothness taste wise that I feel sugar may add.  I may have to try just a little to counteract the acidity in Tomato Magic. I liked Tomato Magic better than 7/11, maybe due to the skins being omitted. And yup RedSauce youíre right, Iíve been told by staff they add water so they must be adding a bit to the thick paste. This would seem to be the consistency Iím looking for then. Thank you!

I noticed that Pizzashark says to use Full Red Pizza Sauce, so Iíll try that too. Not sure how different it will be compared to Tomato Magic but itís worth a shot. Interestingly, he says to add oregano and basil to it, along with black pepper, red pepper flakes and salt. Iíll try it. Iím not sure PR uses all those but maybe!

Pics below are from the my two pies that I did tonight. The lump charcoal perfectly cooks them. The Giambatta dough opened up perfect, but the Cheese dough was still a bit cold. Both doughs were proofed in covered plastic containers, drenched with flour, in an 85į Proof setting in the oven. The dough that was used for the giambatta was pressed down quite flat like I saw PR have in their dough racks. The dough used for the cheese pizza was more of a ball shape and eventually puffed up pretty massively. I assume the ball shape made it stay colder? The ball shaped dough used for the cheese pizza also had more yeast (.625%) and seemed to over ferment in the heat. The Giambatta pizza has those bubbles that the Braintree PR had. Now if I can just recreate this every time.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 13, 2018, 11:12:54 AM
Pod4477,

Unfortunately, all we have to go on is what Anthony and other PM employees have said in the videos or podcasts or put into writing somewhere. Or from knowledgeable people like scott r, RedSauce or Pizza Shark.

At his point, for example, we don't know whether anti-caking agents are part of the PR cheese blend, which is a common practice, not only for retail cheese products but also for many of the chains, like Papa John's, for example. However, I should point out that Grande Cheese does not use any additives, fillers and preservatives with any of its cheeses, including its shredded, diced or shaved cheeses. So, the same might be true for the Empire cheeses that PR uses. You might consider placing a call with Great Lakes to see if it is their practice to add anything to their shredded cheeses. That would be a simple question for them to answer without divulging any trade secrets. If you get an answer, maybe you could also probe what they do for PR. The worst that can happen is that they decline to answer. That has happened to me in the past, more than once.

We also don't know if certain ingredients not previously disclosed are added to the Stanislaus tomatoes. However, with respect to the notion of adding sugar to the Stanislaus tomatoes, I tend not to think that PR does that. If we are correct that the PR pizzerias receive unopened cans from the commissary, that would put the burden of adding sugar to the tomatoes on the shoulders of the workers and hope that they do it correctly and properly at all times and don't forget to do it. There is greater certainty about adding water to the Stanislaus tomatoes because the sauce won't work right without the water. So, if I were PR I don't know that I would be in favor of the idea of sugar being added by workers at the PR pizzerias.

FYI, on the sugar issue, I took another look this morning at the Sugars contents of the two Stanislaus tomato products that come with a basil leaf. The Full Red Pizza Sauce with Fresh Basil has 4 grams of Sugars per serving whereas the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce w/Fresh Basil has 5 grams of Sugars per (same) serving size. So, the sugar contents are not much different. Also, the Sugars numbers are for natural sugars, so their flavor impact is likely to be far less than for sugar (sucrose).

As for the impact of the shape of the dough on cooling is concerned, a flattened dough ball will cool more efficiently--and most likely faster--than a round dough ball. Tom Lehmann discussed this idea recently at Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54263.msg545153;topicseen#msg545153.

I also have another item to bring to your attention. Recently, while I was on one of my searching gigs relating to PR, I stumbled across another pizzeria that is run by a fellow named Paul Buccieri, and called Bucceri's Pizzeria. I believe I saw Paul's name in an obit posted online from which I concluded that Paul is related to Anthony Buccieri. I think he is the brother of Anthony. In any event, Paul worked for several years at Pizzeria Regina before opening up his own place, which is in Chelsea. You can see what Paul is doing at his website at:

http://www.buccierispizza.com/

I mention Paul's place because it would be interesting to talk to Paul and maybe even sample his pizza to compare it with a PR pizza. Using your favorable PR experiences as background, it would be interesting to ask him how his pizzas differ from those made by PR while he worked there. Of course, we can't know how he would respond because he may have been told by Anthony not to answer any questions relating to processes used at PR. So, it is just a thought at this point.

In the meantime, you can check out some of Paul's pizzas in the photos at:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Buccieri%27s+pizzeria&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj-g6uh5oPeAhVJHqwKHa85AaEQ_AUIDygC&biw=1440&bih=751,

and at:

https://www.facebook.com/pg/buccierispizza/photos/?ref=page_internal

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 13, 2018, 12:39:07 PM
Pod4477,

Unfortunately, all we have to go on is what Anthony and other PM employees have said in the videos or podcasts or put into writing somewhere. Or from knowledgeable people like scott r, RedSauce or Pizza Shark.

At his point, for example, we don't know whether anti-caking agents are part of the PR cheese blend, which is a common practice, not only for retail cheese products but also for many of the chains, like Papa John's, for example. However, I should point out that Grande Cheese does not use any additives, fillers and preservatives with any of its cheeses, including its shredded, diced or shaved cheeses. So, the same might be true for the Empire cheeses that PR uses. You might consider placing a call with Great Lakes to see if it is their practice to add anything to their shredded cheeses. That would be a simple question for them to answer without divulging any trade secrets. If you get an answer, maybe you could also probe what they do for PR. The worst that can happen is that they decline to answer. That has happened to me in the past, more than once.

We also don't know if certain ingredients not previously disclosed are added to the Stanislaus tomatoes. However, with respect to the notion of adding sugar to the Stanislaus tomatoes, I tend not to think that PR does that. If we are correct that the PR pizzerias receive unopened cans from the commissary, that would put the burden of adding sugar to the tomatoes on the shoulders of the workers and hope that they do it correctly and properly at all times and don't forget to do it. There is greater certainty about adding water to the Stanislaus tomatoes because the sauce won't work right without the water. So, if I were PR I don't know that I would be in favor of the idea of sugar being added by workers at the PR pizzerias.

FYI, on the sugar issue, I took another look this morning at the Sugars contents of the two Stanislaus tomato products that come with a basil leaf. The Full Red Pizza Sauce with Fresh Basil has 4 grams of Sugars per serving whereas the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce w/Fresh Basil has 5 grams of Sugars per (same) serving size. So, the sugar contents are not much different. Also, the Sugars numbers are for natural sugars, so their flavor impact is likely to be far less than for sugar (sucrose).

As for the impact of the shape of the dough on cooling is concerned, a flattened dough ball will cool more efficiently--and most likely faster--than a round dough ball. Tom Lehmann discussed this idea recently at Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54263.msg545153;topicseen#msg545153.

I also have another item to bring to your attention. Recently, while I was on one of my searching gigs relating to PR, I stumbled across another pizzeria that is run by a fellow named Paul Buccieri, and called Bucceri's Pizzeria. I believe I saw Paul's name in an obit posted online from which I concluded that Paul is related to Anthony Buccieri. I think he is the brother of Anthony. In any event, Paul worked for several years at Pizzeria Regina before opening up his own place, which is in Chelsea. You can see what Paul is doing at his website at:

http://www.buccierispizza.com/

I mention Paul's place because it would be interesting to talk to Paul and maybe even sample his pizza to compare it with a PR pizza. Using your favorable PR experiences as background, it would be interesting to ask him how his pizzas differ from those made by PR while he worked there. Of course, we can't know how he would respond because he may have been told by Anthony not to answer any questions relating to processes used at PR. So, it is just a thought at this point.

In the meantime, you can check out some of Paul's pizzas in the photos at:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Buccieri%27s+pizzeria&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj-g6uh5oPeAhVJHqwKHa85AaEQ_AUIDygC&biw=1440&bih=751,

and at:

https://www.facebook.com/pg/buccierispizza/photos/?ref=page_internal

Peter

Youíre right, that really is all we can go by unfortunately, but you guys do awesome investigative work. Good idea about calling Empire. As for the sugar Iím sure youíre right as well. I noticed they have a sauce only pie, so if they wonít give me a sample, I could always get that and try it. I always find my flattened dough balls warm up much better and closer to PR. I try and simulate the toasty environment you pointed out. Thatís very interesting about Paul. Iíll have to try out his place and ask him questions. I never mind asking. I was at a local sub shop and asked what oven he has. He took me out back to see his deck oven and I told him Iím trying to replicate PR. Awesome guy and answered all my questions. Turns out I was right all along about honey in local buffalo sauce.

Paulís pizzas look good and a bit smaller rim than PR. Thank you! Iíll definitely have to check it out.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 13, 2018, 01:10:04 PM
Pod4477,

If you decide to visit Paul's pizzeria, keep in mind that his place's hours are not standard hours for a pizzeria (see below), so you will want to check the hours before going there. Also, you might want to call in advance to be sure he is there when you want to visit.

Local Delivery ($20.00 minimum for deliveries) 9:00 A.M - 11:30 A.M

Dine-In - Take Out (Monday-Friday) 8:30 A.M - 2:30 P.M

Dine-In - Take Out; (Monday-Friday - just Pizza Slices) 2:30 P.M - 3:00 P.M

Saturday & Sunday--Closed


Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: QwertyJuan on October 13, 2018, 10:28:40 PM
Pod4477,

If you decide to visit Paul's pizzeria, keep in mind that his place's hours are not standard hours for a pizzeria (see below), so you will want to check the hours before going there. Also, you might want to call in advance to be sure he is there when you want to visit.

Local Delivery ($20.00 minimum for deliveries) 9:00 A.M - 11:30 A.M

Dine-In - Take Out (Monday-Friday) 8:30 A.M - 2:30 P.M

Dine-In - Take Out; (Monday-Friday - just Pizza Slices) 2:30 P.M - 3:00 P.M

Saturday & Sunday--Closed


Peter

Surely the hours must be a mistake?? Like.... is he running a breakfast place??  ???
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 13, 2018, 11:07:31 PM
Thank you Peter! I would have been upset if I went there and they were closed at 4 PM.  Hours are certainly interesting and remind me of a place on kitchen nightmares. 

So, I got a sauce only pie today from PR, and got a side of tomato sauce on the side!  I made some observations as expected.

1.  The sauce is super thin with a ton of water. 
2.  There is not that much acidity at all in the sauce.
3.  There is definitely oregano in the sauce, and it tastes like my Italian Oregano.  It's not too strong and pungent, it looks dried, and there isn't too much of it.  You can taste it in every bite, but its not overpowering.
4.  There is a very little bit of Romano, and I mean very little.  It's barely noticeable taste wise, but you can see little dots of it, but it's not really spread throughout at all in the amount that the oregano is.
5.  There could be dried basil pieces, but I wasn't sure.

Conclusion:
It just tastes like Pantene Kitchen Ready with a ton of water added, and some Oregano added, and only a little bit of Romano.  They don't use a lot of sauce either, normally.

Note: I did find out that the other "mystery flavor" turned out to be either the sauce or cheese that gets caramelized.  Not sure if the caramelized flavor is the sauce/cheese that is exposed on the crust, or if it's also coming from the middle of the pie too.  Have you guys tasted this on other pizzas?  I'm guessing it's the cheese that gets caramelized from the long bake times and the Maillard reaction might be the reason why again, just like the crust.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 14, 2018, 08:13:36 AM


So, I got a sauce only pie today from PR, and got a side of tomato sauce on the side!  I made some observations as expected.

1.  The sauce is super thin with a ton of water. 
2.  There is not that much acidity at all in the sauce.
3.  There is definitely oregano in the sauce, and it tastes like my Italian Oregano.  It's not too strong and pungent, it looks dried, and there isn't too much of it.  You can taste it in every bite, but its not overpowering.
4.  There is a very little bit of Romano, and I mean very little.  It's barely noticeable taste wise, but you can see little dots of it, but it's not really spread throughout at all in the amount that the oregano is.
5.  There could be dried basil pieces, but I wasn't sure.


Pod4477,

Great job in get the tomato sauce on the side.  ;D Finding oregano in the sauce sure can give a different taste to the sauce.  You never would have found that out in videos or by the owner of PR's.  You know the drill of what they say is in their sauce.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 14, 2018, 08:51:09 AM
Surely the hours must be a mistake?? Like.... is he running a breakfast place??  ???
QJ,

Those are the hours given at http://www.buccierispizza.com/. According to TripAdvisor, at https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g41501-d925423-Reviews-Buccieri_s_Pizzeria-Chelsea_Massachusetts.html, the pizzeria is a breakfast and lunch place. The same hours are listed at TripAdvisor. I would guess that the pizzeria is in an area with many businesses and few residential neighborhoods. I did a quick Google Map search and it looks like there are a lot of warehouses and other businesses in the area where the pizzeria is located. That could account for the fact that the pizzeria is closed on Saturdays and Sundays. There might not be enough business to warrant being open on those days.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: QwertyJuan on October 14, 2018, 12:31:16 PM
QJ,

Those are the hours given at http://www.buccierispizza.com/. According to TripAdvisor, at https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g41501-d925423-Reviews-Buccieri_s_Pizzeria-Chelsea_Massachusetts.html, the pizzeria is a breakfast and lunch place. The same hours are listed at TripAdvisor. I would guess that the pizzeria is in an area with many businesses and few residential neighborhoods. I did a quick Google Map search and it looks like there are a lot of warehouses and other businesses in the area where the pizzeria is located. That could account for the fact that the pizzeria is closed on Saturdays and Sundays. There might not be enough business to warrant being open on those days.

Peter

I wasn't questioning your research abilities... everyone knows you are the master. I just assumed the hours were posted incorrectly. I can't imagine running a pizza place for just breakfast and lunch. Just seems strange. However... if he can make a living doing it?? My hats are off to him!  :chef: :chef:
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: vtsteve on October 14, 2018, 12:36:39 PM
From the web site:
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 14, 2018, 12:54:24 PM
Thanks Norma! Yup that makes sense why heíd be closed Peter, good points. I definitely want to check it out. Thereís also a place in Scituate that is owned by a former PR employee. I should get down there and ask some questions. Iíve been pondering exactly why I was getting that flavor last night from the pizza. Itís important to note the slice does sit under a heat lamp, but I think itís the oven giving a caramalized taste to either the cheese or sauce, mainly on the rim. I may just need to cook my pies longer. Iím going to do some two pies tonight. A PR clone test using my 1-2 month aged Empire cooked around 600į, and a coal fired thinner rim type pizza cooked around 800-900į.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 14, 2018, 01:03:20 PM
I wasn't questioning your research abilities... everyone knows you are the master. I just assumed the hours were posted incorrectly. I can't imagine running a pizza place for just breakfast and lunch. Just seems strange. However... if he can make a living doing it?? My hats are off to him!  :chef: :chef:
QJ,

I was as puzzled as you ;D. And I thought I might have copied the hours wrong. But when I started to think about it, I concluded that there had to be a reason for those hours. I guessed that maybe he was in a business area. If Pod4477 decides to visit Paul, maybe he can fill us in on the details. But I agree with you that it is nice to have evenings and weekends off. Paul has been in his place for about 20 years (see excerpt below), so he must be doing something right.

I started working at Pizzeria Regina at the age of 14 that's where my two brothers Anthony and Vincent taught me how to make pizzas. I worked there for 10 years. After the Pizzeria Regina I worked at Donatello's Restaurant in Saugus for a couple of years, learning how to cook pizzas in a wood burning oven. In 1994 I opened my first pizza place, called Bacci's Pizzeria in Saugus. In 1998 I opened Buccieri's Pizzeria in Chelsea, we are going on our 19 year of proudly serving our loyal customers. Over the years I've been very blessed with incredible employees including my cousin Michael Perella who has been with me for over 20 years, I would like to say thank you to all the loyal employees and wonderful customer who I proudly served


Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 14, 2018, 06:51:48 PM
QJ,

I was as puzzled as you ;D. And I thought I might have copied the hours wrong. But when I started to think about it, I concluded that there had to be a reason for those hours. I guessed that maybe he was in a business area. If Pod4477 decides to visit Paul, maybe he can fill us in on the details. But I agree with you that it is nice to have evenings and weekends off. Paul has been in his place for about 20 years (see excerpt below), so he must be doing something right.

I started working at Pizzeria Regina at the age of 14 that's where my two brothers Anthony and Vincent taught me how to make pizzas. I worked there for 10 years. After the Pizzeria Regina I worked at Donatello's Restaurant in Saugus for a couple of years, learning how to cook pizzas in a wood burning oven. In 1994 I opened my first pizza place, called Bacci's Pizzeria in Saugus. In 1998 I opened Buccieri's Pizzeria in Chelsea, we are going on our 19 year of proudly serving our loyal customers. Over the years I've been very blessed with incredible employees including my cousin Michael Perella who has been with me for over 20 years, I would like to say thank you to all the loyal employees and wonderful customer who I proudly served


Peter

Wow he must be doing something right! Awesome work history there. I want to check it out even more now.
So my tomato sauce from PR was left out overnight and started to ferment. The smell is the same as the cooked dough under the tomatoes that stays a little soggy/soft from the sauce. Do you think:
A) due to when they spread the sauce and then put the ladle back into the sauce, bits of dough may get into the sauce?
B) itís just a natural fermentation and just smells like cooked dough?
C) they are adding something to it?
D) yeast in the air is getting into the container of sauce?

I wonder why it smells exactly like the middle part of the pizza under the sauce. The fermented smell does smell similar to the smell I get when I do my testing of cheese and sauce I pull off the pizza. I believe Iíve smelled this fermented smell at Uno Pizzeria too.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 14, 2018, 08:10:05 PM
Wow he must be doing something right! Awesome work history there. I want to check it out even more now.
So my tomato sauce from PR was left out overnight and started to ferment. The smell is the same as the cooked dough under the tomatoes that stays a little soggy/soft from the sauce. Do you think:
A) due to when they spread the sauce and then put the ladle back into the sauce, bits of dough may get into the sauce?
B) itís just a natural fermentation and just smells like cooked dough?
C) they are adding something to it?
D) yeast in the air is getting into the container of sauce?

I wonder why it smells exactly like the middle part of the pizza under the sauce. The fermented smell does smell similar to the smell I get when I do my testing of cheese and sauce I pull off the pizza. I believe Iíve smelled this fermented smell at Uno Pizzeria too.
Pod4477,

I have no idea of why you experienced what you experienced, or why it occurred. And I am not sure what tests or experiments you might conduct to divine the answer.

Maybe once you have had a chance to call Great Lakes, and to play around with some of the Stanslaus tomatoes, and to talk to Paul Buccieri, you may zero in more closely to what PR is doing. Also, your dough experiments with a six or seven day cold fermentation, with or without oil, may reveal some useful information. These are all core parts of your analysis.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 15, 2018, 12:56:29 AM
Pod4477,

I have no idea of why you experienced what you experienced, or why it occurred. And I am not sure what tests or experiments you might conduct to divine the answer.

Maybe once you have had a chance to call Great Lakes, and to play around with some of the Stanslaus tomatoes, and to talk to Paul Buccieri, you may zero in more closely to what PR is doing. Also, your dough experiments with a six or seven day cold fermentation, with or without oil, may reveal some useful information. These are all core parts of your analysis.

Peter

You guys know a lot more about fermentation than I do, but I do think itís just yeast in the air or through contact that made it ferment. It smelled like dough, so Iím assuming thatís why. Yup Iíll have to contact them, youíre right. I did finally cook the last of my 6-7 day ferments. All were very good but I felt the .20% yeast was better. I used IDY but will have to try with fresh next time I get it. I enjoyed both the 52% hydration with 4-5% oil and the 60% hydration with 3.7% oil. Not sure which one is closer to PR, but your calculations Peter were awesome, thank you. Iím leaning towards PR not using any oil, but I like 3-4% usually. 5% is good too though. The dough definitely seemed better after 6-7 days, but 3 days was fine. As expected, there was a huge difference between my slightly better than emergency same day dough (half Giambatta/half cheese, pictures 4 and 5) and the 7 day cold ferment (cheese, pictures 1-3). I do think there are less bubbles after 7 days compared to 3-6 days. Iíve come very close to the taste I desire. The Dough seems very close, and the tomato sauce is as well, with using Pastene Kitchen Ready tomatoes, and only Italian oregano and water added.  The water is key to making it just like PR.

The only thing is the cheese may need more butter taste from a spray, and the (what I suspect) caramalized cheese or sauce taste doesnít seem to be there yet. This could be because my Ooni oven is cooking around 600-700į, so the Maillard reaction is minimal on the crust and probably on the cheese and sauce too. Iíll have to try a conventional oven test with my baking steel though, as I was able to get good Maillard reactions from 485į. PR does seem like a pretty typical NY pizza, but with what I believe to be something added to the cheese and a very good dough. After 7 days, my dough seems very close, but I wish I could have you guys compare.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 15, 2018, 06:43:52 AM

So my tomato sauce from PR was left out overnight and started to ferment. The smell is the same as the cooked dough under the tomatoes that stays a little soggy/soft from the sauce. Do you think:
A) due to when they spread the sauce and then put the ladle back into the sauce, bits of dough may get into the sauce?
B) itís just a natural fermentation and just smells like cooked dough?
C) they are adding something to it?
D) yeast in the air is getting into the container of sauce?

I wonder why it smells exactly like the middle part of the pizza under the sauce. The fermented smell does smell similar to the smell I get when I do my testing of cheese and sauce I pull off the pizza. I believe Iíve smelled this fermented smell at Uno Pizzeria too.

Pod4477,

Interesting that PR's sauce fermented after letting it sit out.  Have no real idea why the smell might have been the same as the cooked dough under the tomatoes, unless the cooked tomatoes somehow give a flavor to the part that stays a little soggy/soft from the sauce.

One thing I found when trying to clone pizzerias pizzas is my deck oven, home oven, or Blackstone pizza oven is that I can't get exactly the same tastes/bakes out of any of them as with the kind of ovens they use.

I was trying to determine what might be in Joe & Pat's sauce.  I did obtain some of what was thought to be Joe and Pat's pizza sauce at Reply 107  (photos) https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45716.msg462104#msg462104  Said at Reply 118 that I asked for extra sauce for dipping and saw the sauce was in a big stainless steel bucket.  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45716.msg462322#msg462322 Posted some photos of what the two slice from Joe and Pat's looked like before they were reheated and almost reheated. https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45716.msg462375#msg462375  At Reply 128 I removed the Joe and Pat's sauce from the plastic container and think saw more what might have been in that sauce.  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45716.msg462538#msg462538 I never got to get anymore of Joe & Pat's sauce, but just am showing them to you to show what lengths some pizzeria's go to make their sauces.  Still am not sure if the sauce was the sauce used to put on their pizzas, or another sauce used for something at Joe and Pat's.  Reason that I showed these links and photos is because Joe and Pat's sauce never fermented over a few days and the from the ride home from Staten Island.

Not sure what the food safety rules say in Mass., but in Pa., the sauce can only be left out at room temperature for 4 hours before it has to be thrown away.

Best of luck with your cloning efforts!  :)

Norma

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 15, 2018, 01:07:21 PM
Pod4477,

I like the looks of your pizzas at this stage. I noticed that you said that you used 0.20% IDY. Actually, that is the right amount to use as a substitute for fresh yeast. In the dough formulations I put together in Reply 77 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54120.msg545887#msg545887, the amount of fresh (cake) yeast was 0.625%. So, roughly one-third of that is 0.208% when substituting IDY. Tom Lehmann has frequently said that performance-wise dry yeasts should work as well as fresh yeast if the correct amounts of the dry yeasts are used. So, you many not need to make a fresh yeast version of the doughs, unless you want to see if there is some sort of nice twist that comes out of using the fresh yeast.

It is also good to hear that your 6-7-day doughs have been working out well for you. It would be interesting to see how an oil-free PR clone dough would work over a 6-7 day period of cold fermentation. That might tell us whether PR has not been leveling with us about the oil in the dough. But my gut tells me that Anthony was perhaps being truthful when he said that there is no oil used in the PR dough, and that the oil comes from the cheese (full cream). Of course, if you prefer an oil version, that is good enough reason for you to use oil.

With respect to the fermenting of pizza sauce, you may get a kick out of the thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4311.msg36061#msg36061, including the back-and-forth discussions between member November and some of the other members  ;D. I suppose wild yeast floating around can induce fermentation of pizza sauce but, as Norma noted, there are rules and regulations that apply at the store level. But I suspect that those rules and regulations are strictly with respect to how sauces are managed as opposed to things that happen accidentally or as part of some other oddity that comes out of an interaction between the sauce and other parts of the pizza. I must confess that when I did a search on fermenting tomatoes, I was surprised on how many articles on that subject. This is one such example:

https://ediblealchemy.co/lacto-fermented-tomato-sauce/

It will also be interesting to see how using a baking steel in your home oven works out, as compared with your Ooni. If you succeed, that might allow other members to give a PR clone a try. Using a pizza stone might also be worth a try.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 15, 2018, 01:51:04 PM
Norma,
I enjoyed reading about your sauce journey and maybe the tomatoes are leaving that smell on the dough. I did notice that my dough smelled very similar to the fermented sauce, so it could be just the smell of yeast fermentation. Not quite sure but I know their tomatoes do have a unique smell when cooked. I will say that the smell and taste of their sauce before it fermented was nothing too special. It smelled and tasted just like Pastene. I was very happy with using Pastene and adding a lot of water. I was wondering if PR had given me the correct sauce too. It seems that they did since it was so watery, but I also got a marina sauce too for fun. She said the marinara has no cheese added, but I can tell it definitely has a ton more added and definitely a cooked sauce.

Peter,
Thank you! Using lump charcoal has yielded me close results with even a little Maillard reaction. Iím getting a heat shield to prevent burning, as well. The second pizza I charred/burned purposely. So using ⅓ IDY for fresh yeast is the proper conversion? I forgot where I got the .20% from.
I enjoyed the fermentation links as well and the exchange between members. I must say, the fermenting tomatoes do remind me of PR and I suspect the mix of oregano cooking and yeast in the air is what Iím smelling at PR. Itís good that I smelled a similar fermentation smell from my Dough as the fermented tomatoes. 7 days definitely gets these doughs smelling good. Iíll have to try a 7 day Dough with no oil. When I used no oil last time it was only in a 3 day ferment Dough, and it had a bit dryer crumb. I found when my 7 day cold fermented dough sat in a plastic container filled with flour, in my ovens proof setting at 85į for about 2 hours, it wasnít perfect. The temp of the Dough rose to 76į and was a breeze to open. It didnít feel cold when opening at all. I know this is pretty warm for a dough but it seemed to be the only way I can get a good opening for 16Ē.

The baking steel is awesome when itís rainy outside. Iím able to get a perfect browned Maillard crust at 485į. Tastes exactly like PR in Braintree, so Iíll have to keep trying it to see if I can get the same charred cheese taste I suspect Iím tasting at PR. Iíll have to try my baking stone too now that I know 485į is the best temp for it. I wish I could do 16" pizza in my home oven. Iíd say besides so far missing the mystery caramalized cheese taste, the baking steel and home oven replicate almost precisely a Braintree PR pizza. The Ooni replicated as close as I can get to the North End around 500-600į. Now if I can get my Ooni to sit around 485į I may be able to the get the Maillard reaction more for a more NY type pie. Iím torn between the two textures. I think the Maillard reaction crust tastes awesome because of the wheaty cereal flavor, but the charred more Neapolitan crust tastes awesome too.

I believe the bitter taste I had during the summer was from using King Arthur bread flour and also when I used Caputo. King Arthur did not taste close at all, while Caputo tasted good, it was just not close for PR either. Both tasted bitter to me, but KA was just way off flavor wise.  The lack of malt in the Caputo and the wheat they use made it taste too plain for PR. The malt or wheat in KA didnít taste right. PR in the North End only tasted bitter when burnt, but mine tasted bitter back then even after slight browning. I believe All Trumps is very close to the taste of PR and the malt or wheat of Gold Medal is far better than that of King Arthur. Iíll never buy King Arthur flour again actually.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 15, 2018, 02:09:38 PM
Pod4477,

The conversion ratio that I mentioned for IDY is not exact but close enough. When using ADY instead of IDY, a bit over half the weight of the cake yeast is about right. You can see more exact conversions using this chart:

http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm

As for using a pizza stone to make a 16" pizza, what I used to do with my 14" rectangular pizza stone to get to the 16" size was to put the dressed pizza onto a 16" pizza screen and bake it either on a rack or on the preheated stone until the pizza set up. Then I would slide the pizza off of the screen onto the stone to finish baking. The pizza was larger than the stone and overlapped the stone at its sides but that did not seem to affect things negatively. I also used the same method to make 18" pizzas, the largest that my oven could handle.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: RedSauce on October 15, 2018, 03:02:31 PM
If I may toss in a few belated remarks: I'm glad you were able to get and observe a sample of raw PR sauce. Yes, it's thin and loaded with water. Your photo also shows that there's no oil added, which would separate into droplets that would be easily visible within such a watery environment. If the water is added at the shop destinations, then it might be assumed that the flavorings (Romano cheese and I wouldn't be surprised at a little salt) are also added there in the mixing as well. If so, it would indicate that none of the sauce formulation is done at the commissary. For maximum freshness, they'd deliver cans of the Stanislaus product to the outlets. Santarpio's uses Pastene Kitchen Ready, but I think PR uses Stanislaus packed with basil leaf providing the aforementioned flavor. Did you say you thought they also spritzed the dressed pizza with garlic oil?

I think the "fermentation" of the sauce after being allowed prolonged exposure to air is the oxidation and loss of sweetness the tomatoes undergo as they advance toward spoilage for lack of refrigeration. This will also happen with refrigeration albeit more slowly, in my experience.

I also think the last flavor influence you are pursuing is the contribution of the baked cheese. When exposed to the oven heat, the cheese "curdles up", if you will, and tends to take on a saltier, more intense flavor and sheds oil, all of which contribute a significant flavor factor to the pizza.

How this process occurs and the ultimate result varies with the type and operation of the oven. It's not just about temperature. I was involved with Baker's Pride deck ovens which had separate heat flow directed up the side walls and out over the top of the pizzas. The heat came through holes in the side walls which could be partially closed with a handle to adjust/balance the top heat with the stone floor. I've always felt that the amount of top heat has a significant influence in cheese characteristics. Assuming about a 550 degree temp, force too much heat too fast and the cheese burns before the crust is done. Have the balance right and allow a thorough bake time and the cheese "fries", for lack of a better term, producing a desirable flavor influence. It's one of those things that limits what home ovens can achieve vs. pro deck ovens. I think you need to talk someone into letting you slip one of your pies into a PR oven and see what comes out.

Just kicking in my impressions, FWIW.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 15, 2018, 08:38:47 PM
Pod4477,

Since I had mentioned Grande Cheese in the context of their not using any additives in any of their cheeses, including their shredded cheeses and blends, I wondered whether I could find similar statements at the Great Lakes Cheese website, at:

https://www.greatlakescheese.com/

I found no such statements. I also did not find anything about the Empire cheeses, even after doing a separate search. I found mentions of Empire and its relationship to Great Lakes but little about their products. Even this sheet on Empire does not mention Great Lakes:

http://www.buzzfile.com/business/Empire-Cheese,-Inc.-585-968-1552

The paucity of information about the matter of use of anti caking and similar additives led me to look for Nutrition Facts for the Great Lake cheeses, including the Empire cheeses. I could not find any Nutrition Facts for the Empire cheeses. But I found several for the Great Lakes shredded cheeses, including not only their shredded mozzarella cheese, but their mozzarella/provolone blend, their shredded cheddar, and their shredded Monterrey Jack. See, for example, these links:

Shredded mozzarella: https://www.nutritionix.com/i/great-lakes-cheese/shredded-natural-cheese-mozzarella/54eb46679c0b588854153d8e

Shredded mozzarella/provolone blend: https://www.webstaurantstore.com/great-lakes-5-lb-bag-shredded-mozzarella-and-provolone-cheese-blend-case/875775565.html?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=Cj0KCQjw9ZDeBRD9ARIsAMbAmoYnf4BmCoit5OwTRVZWI5PK6EIdDaozExBA25k9jGh6n8bxskwHWmUaAs-2EALw_wcB

Shredded mild white cheddar: https://www.webstaurantstore.com/great-lakes-cheese-5-lb-bag-shredded-mild-white-natural-cheddar-cheese-case/875774135.html?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=Cj0KCQjw9ZDeBRD9ARIsAMbAmobwi26lpN5Oa7It2D4MBa0O-0VItZLTPiTO29Y8ZoK7doxQXDdYoccaApTaEALw_wcB

Shredded Monterrey Jack: https://www.webstaurantstore.com/5-lb-great-lakes-shredded-monterey-jack-cheese-case/875774209.html

What they all have in common is the use of potato starch and cellulose to prevent caking. Hmm.

Of course, the above does not mean that Empire uses anti-caking additives, and maybe they will sells cheeses without such additives to PR as specified by contract with PR. But what I have posted above indicates that Great Lakes, unlike Grande, is not averse to using anti-caking additives. And I did not find anything to suggest otherwise as a corporate, company-wide objective along the lines as manifested by Grande. Also, with respect to Empire and its Cuba, NY facility, I found the following at the Great Lakes website:

Primarily a Mozzarella and Provolone manufacturing facility, this plant also packages the entire Great Lakes Cheese line of food service shreds, and is home to our award winning string cheese as well. Our Mozzarella and Provolone are time-tested performers that have proven to be consistent winners of awards in state, national and world competitions.

The above statement could imply that Empire sells repackaged Great Lakes shredded cheese under either the Great Lakes brand or the Empire brand, and possibly its own blends under its own name and including in both cases anti caking additives.

The statement also makes me wonder whether PR is using a mozzarella/provolone pizza blend in the PR restaurants. Anthony only mentioned mozzarella but PR also uses provolone cheese in its restaurants.

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 16, 2018, 12:00:26 AM
Peter,
Thank you for the conversions. Thatís an awesome trick for making bigger pizzas in home ovens! Iíll have to try that next time. I did buy a pizza screen last month. Awesome work looking into the cheese. I talked to one of the guys at PR tonight and while he wouldnít come out and say anything about the buttery cheese, he noted that it was very buttery when I said it tastes like it has a butter-flavored oil on it. I do wonder if they are using cellulose or something similar and Iíll have to try a provolone/mozzarella blend and see if it gives me that buttery taste. Interesting to note the guy working at Big Y who has ties to PR uses Sorrento Mozz/Provolone/Romano blend. I should take some of my Empire mozz and some of my provolone and taste them together to see. So far Iíve been melting margerine and spreading it on my mozzarella. It comes out close but not as intense. I still remember Anthony did say ďblendĒ even though he said it was only Mozzerella.

RedSauce,
Yup youíre right about no oil. Tasted just like Kitchen Ready with a ton of water and oregano added. Salt makes sense too as I always like some more added salt. The sauce had a good balance of seasoning but was pretty basic. I left some of my own homemade sauce out and it didnít ferment, so while I believe youíre right about it being on the verge of spoilage, I do wonder if yeast has something to do with it. Their sauce may have been out for another 5 hours more than mine though. Iím sure youíre right though as you know a lot more about it than I do.
The worker at PR said that bubbling can happen from an older sauce, so I suspect it was left out for hours. I have a theory that maybe some sauce is going on the pizza older than other sauce and thatís why some pies smell better under the tomatoes than some other ones, but maybe not. Reminds me of Lucali with some sauce being used at the beginning of the night and some at the end.  Of course he cooks his so itís different.  I believe the smells Iím smelling at PR and under their tomatoes on the soggy part of the crust, may be all related to fermentation. It must be, because the sauce is pretty basic. I believe youíre right about the top heat affecting the cheese. The slice I got tonight had proper melted cheese but didnít have any caramelized taste at any part of it. Because of this, it tasted very similar to mine, just with fattier tasting cheese. I think it just has to have right cheese and sauce and heat conditions to cause certain carmalization on parts of the pie. The sauce does taste very sweet but I think itís just really good tasting tomatoes.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 16, 2018, 08:52:50 AM
Pod4477,

Although we have been talking about shredded cheeses and the additives used with such cheeses, I thought that I might look for mozzarella cheeses sold in block form, including by Great Lakes. In this vein, you may recall that one of the PR videos showed a block of cheese being shredded at the store level. The video shows that step at 1:08 at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=pMR1Zbp1iWM


Of course, we don't know for sure whether the cheese shown as being shredded in the video is the Empire cheese or some other brand of cheese, including the Great Lakes brand. I would assume from the pizza context in the video that the cheese shown being shredded is for pizzas, not other foods sold by PR.

In my search for large block cheeses from Great Lakes, it seems that the places that sell such cheeses are usually not supermarkets but rather places that sell to the foodservice side. For example, I found these two places:

https://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/brands/details/great-lakes-cheese

https://www.costcobusinessdelivery.com/block-cheese.html

As can be seen from these two examples, there are no anti-caking additives used for the block cheeses. So, if PR is in fact buying their blend in block form, whether it is from Great Lakes/Empire or from some other source, it is likely to be a normal blend without anti-caking additives. As for how such cheeses are to be handled from a storage and usage standpoint, and also freezing standpoint, you might take a look at the FAQs at the Great Lakes website, at:

https://www.greatlakescheese.com/faq-great-lakes-cheese.aspx

It might still be a good idea to speak to someone at Great Lakes/Empire to confirm the above and possibly to inquire about what they might be doing with PR although they may not answer those kinds of questions. I was especially surprised that I could not find much information online about Empire and its cheeses although the company is mentioned as part of the history of Great Lakes at https://www.greatlakescheese.com/our-history.aspx.

BTW, Anthony says that their mozzarella cheese is a blend, at about 2:22 in the video at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=142&v=7gNnV2Wpopg

In that video, right after the above timestamp, Anthony talks about the "special" full cream mozzarella cheese.

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 16, 2018, 12:38:39 PM
Pod4477,

Although we have been talking about shredded cheeses and the additives used with such cheeses, I thought that I might look for mozzarella cheeses sold in block form, including by Great Lakes. In this vein, you may recall that one of the PR videos showed a block of cheese being shredded at the store level. The video shows that step at 1:08 at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=pMR1Zbp1iWM


Of course, we don't know for sure whether the cheese shown as being shredded in the video is the Empire cheese or some other brand of cheese, including the Great Lakes brand. I would assume from the pizza context in the video that the cheese shown being shredded is for pizzas, not other foods sold by PR.

In my search for large block cheeses from Great Lakes, it seems that the places that sell such cheeses are usually not supermarkets but rather places that sell to the foodservice side. For example, I found these two places:

https://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/brands/details/great-lakes-cheese

https://www.costcobusinessdelivery.com/block-cheese.html

As can be seen from these two examples, there are no anti-caking additives used for the block cheeses. So, if PR is in fact buying their blend in block form, whether it is from Great Lakes/Empire or from some other source, it is likely to be a normal blend without anti-caking additives. As for how such cheeses are to be handled from a storage and usage standpoint, and also freezing standpoint, you might take a look at the FAQs at the Great Lakes website, at:

https://www.greatlakescheese.com/faq-great-lakes-cheese.aspx

It might still be a good idea to speak to someone at Great Lakes/Empire to confirm the above and possibly to inquire about what they might be doing with PR although they may not answer those kinds of questions. I was especially surprised that I could not find much information online about Empire and its cheeses although the company is mentioned as part of the history of Great Lakes at https://www.greatlakescheese.com/our-history.aspx.

BTW, Anthony says that their mozzarella cheese is a blend, at about 2:22 in the video at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=142&v=7gNnV2Wpopg

In that video, right after the above timestamp, Anthony talks about the "special" full cream mozzarella cheese.

Peter

These are good points Peter. They do insist that they shred it in house. Do you think theyíd put anything on it after shredding at their restaurants to prevent caking? This would be the only way Iím guessing. I wonder if or how they are adding some sort of oil butter spray on it that would add butter and prevent caking. Interestingly I noticed Galbani is using oil and cellulose, so oil has been used. Of course itís possible the butter taste is in the cheese but that would mean itís a special cheese. Maybe thatís the ďblendĒ or ďspecialĒ cheese Anthony talks about.

A worker at PR said the best Dough temp to open Dough is 50į. This is a similar temp you said, but every time I open at 50į itís too cold. I loved 76į the other day as it was perfect for me. Why is 50į-60į too cold for me?
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 16, 2018, 01:13:45 PM
These are good points Peter. They do insist that they shred it in house. Do you think theyíd put anything on it after shredding at their restaurants to prevent caking? This would be the only way Iím guessing. I wonder if or how they are adding some sort of oil butter spray on it that would add butter and prevent caking. Interestingly I noticed Galbani is using oil and cellulose, so oil has been used. Of course itís possible the butter taste is in the cheese but that would mean itís a special cheese. Maybe thatís the ďblendĒ or ďspecialĒ cheese Anthony talks about.

A worker at PR said the best Dough temp to open Dough is 50į. This is a similar temp you said, but every time I open at 50į itís too cold. I loved 76į the other day as it was perfect for me. Why is 50į-60į too cold for me?
Pod4477,

I have never heard of professionals, or even amateurs, add anything to the cheeses they have shredded, other than grated cheeses and maybe some oregano (which is what Papa Gino's does) or other dried herb. I suspect that the workers at PM time the shredding of their cheeses based on anticipated volume of business, so they are not likely to have much shredded cheese left over, if any, and likely to be unusable because of sticking problems. In all of the PR videos where people were instructed on how to make pizzas, the cheeses in the drawers below the work surface looked quite normal, and without any visual evidence of anything like a butter spray having been added to the cheeses. Otherwise, I think that you would have seen evidence of tampering with the shreds at the time the cheeses are spread across the pizzas being dressed. However, I recalled that scott r said that a hard grating cheese is added to the mozzarella, as I quoted Scott at Reply 17 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54120.msg544623#msg544623

So, if Scott is right maybe the grating cheese is good enough to keep the shreds from sticking together. Also, I don't want to forget to mention that Anthony said in his podcast interview that a cheese "blend" is used. Maybe the grated cheese is part of that blend. Remember, also, that Great Lakes offers grated Italian cheeses, so they may be in the best position to add the grated cheese to the PR mozzarella blend. Specifying the desired ratios of the cheeses comprising the blend should be an easy exercise and not unusual. Anthony said in his podcast interview that thousands of pounds of the cheese blend are ordered every month, so a special order in not uncommon.

As for the best temperature to open up dough balls is concerned, what the worker at PR told you is correct. A range of 50-60 degrees F is quite common among pizza chains. However, keep in mind that those temperatures are internal temperatures, not surface temperatures. So, you need to stick a temperature probe into the dough balls.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 16, 2018, 06:17:50 PM
Pod4477,

You might want to take a look at this new thread on the best pizzas in the country:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54514.msg547550#msg547550

Below are a few hints :-D:

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: foreplease on October 16, 2018, 09:06:16 PM
Pod4477,

You might want to take a look at this new thread on the best pizzas in the country:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54514.msg547550#msg547550 (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54514.msg547550#msg547550)

Below are a few hints :-D :

Peter
Good catch, Peter. I just came to post the same thing that caymus posted over there.

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 16, 2018, 10:41:28 PM
 Hmm that place in the thread looks an awful lot like Pizzeria Regina. Now I havenít tried pizza from all over the country, so I never say itís the best, but I do think itís my favorite. I love the look of the North End locationís pies with all the flour caked up. Adding meatballs to the Giambatta is awesome and itís how I make my homemade one. I finally installed a flame guard on my Ooni so I wonít burn my pies now.

I forgot that I messaged Scott about the grating cheese he was talking about, and he said he just meant that they use Romano in the sauce. Sorry I forgot to mention that last week. You bring up good points about the shredding of the cheese Peter. I wonder if they do use any butter flavored oil on the cheese or if the cheese loaf comes with extra fat. All I remember is that their cheese did taste like fake butter was added to it. It was unlike any cold cheese Iíve ever had before. Now what I wonder about provolone added is that every shredded piece tasted the same, so the loaf I assume would have to be a blend of mozz/provolone.

For some reason even when probing my dough, it only opens perfect around 70+į internal temp. Anywhere around 50-60į still feels cold on my knuckles when I open it and it just wonít open evenly. 76į may be high but it feels just like all the same day doughs opening up.  Is this weird?

Also, I pulled the cheese off a slice of PR yesterday (left slice in picture below) and the smell of the soggy dough under the cheese has me curious. The smell is tough to explain but itís a sweet smell, but not the smell of tomatoes. My soggy dough smells similar but Iím not sure if itís quite the same. I believe the butter smell of the cheese may play a role. It does seem to have a unique smell under the sauce that no one else has, while the crust of the rim didnít have this smell. My theory is that the butter smell of the cheese is mixing with the soggy dough creating that smell. Iíll have to smell test another sauce only slice and another white pie slice to see if Iím close. Now, the smell could be from the soggy dough only, but no other pizza place around here has this unique smell. The tomato sauce is just regular sauce, so that leaves one other suspect: the butter of the cheese. Of course, I forgot you need sauce to make the dough soggy, as the cheese only slice doesnít have any soggy middle so that will make my tests tougher.

Note: the cheese only slice is extremely yellow and the butter smell is still potent and pure butter smelling a week later. I feel that they must be adding something to the cheese to give it that yellow color and smell. It smells like butter and I donít recall Papa Ginoís Cheesesticks being this yellow and buttery. Picture below, from left to right: PR normal slice with cheese and sauce removed, my slice with cheese and sauce removed, PR sauce only small slice, insanely yellow PR cheese only slice.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 17, 2018, 06:52:31 AM
Pod4477,
 
Does Pizzeria Regina's  pizzas have a more salty taste to their cheese?

Sure don't know if what Hoda says about Pizzeria Regina's slice having a salty cheese has anything to do with the cheese or not.  When trying different fresh or other mozzarella's, or other cheeses, that the salt amount has to be right for any of the cheeses/ plus the butter fat and other things.  That is just my opinion though. 

https://www.today.com/video/america-s-best-pizza-hoda-and-maria-shriver-try-slices-from-top-2-spots-1345387587679?v=railb&

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 17, 2018, 08:55:38 AM
Good catch, Peter. I just came to post the same thing that caymus posted over there.
Tony,

Thanks for thinking of us over here. As a Moderator, my practice is to look at all posts, about a hundred a day on average. So, to keep up, I try to look at posts as soon as possible.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 17, 2018, 10:32:01 AM
Hmm that place in the thread looks an awful lot like Pizzeria Regina. Now I havenít tried pizza from all over the country, so I never say itís the best, but I do think itís my favorite. I love the look of the North End locationís pies with all the flour caked up. Adding meatballs to the Giambatta is awesome and itís how I make my homemade one. I finally installed a flame guard on my Ooni so I wonít burn my pies now.

I forgot that I messaged Scott about the grating cheese he was talking about, and he said he just meant that they use Romano in the sauce. Sorry I forgot to mention that last week. You bring up good points about the shredding of the cheese Peter. I wonder if they do use any butter flavored oil on the cheese or if the cheese loaf comes with extra fat. All I remember is that their cheese did taste like fake butter was added to it. It was unlike any cold cheese Iíve ever had before. Now what I wonder about provolone added is that every shredded piece tasted the same, so the loaf I assume would have to be a blend of mozz/provolone.

For some reason even when probing my dough, it only opens perfect around 70+į internal temp. Anywhere around 50-60į still feels cold on my knuckles when I open it and it just wonít open evenly. 76į may be high but it feels just like all the same day doughs opening up.  Is this weird?

Also, I pulled the cheese off a slice of PR yesterday (left slice in picture below) and the smell of the soggy dough under the cheese has me curious. The smell is tough to explain but itís a sweet smell, but not the smell of tomatoes. My soggy dough smells similar but Iím not sure if itís quite the same. I believe the butter smell of the cheese may play a role. It does seem to have a unique smell under the sauce that no one else has, while the crust of the rim didnít have this smell. My theory is that the butter smell of the cheese is mixing with the soggy dough creating that smell. Iíll have to smell test another sauce only slice and another white pie slice to see if Iím close. Now, the smell could be from the soggy dough only, but no other pizza place around here has this unique smell. The tomato sauce is just regular sauce, so that leaves one other suspect: the butter of the cheese. Of course, I forgot you need sauce to make the dough soggy, as the cheese only slice doesnít have any soggy middle so that will make my tests tougher.

Note: the cheese only slice is extremely yellow and the butter smell is still potent and pure butter smelling a week later. I feel that they must be adding something to the cheese to give it that yellow color and smell. It smells like butter and I donít recall Papa Ginoís Cheesesticks being this yellow and buttery. Picture below, from left to right: PR normal slice with cheese and sauce removed, my slice with cheese and sauce removed, PR sauce only small slice, insanely yellow PR cheese only slice.
Pod4477,

Thank you for clarifying the matter of the use of grated cheese along with the PR mozzarella cheese. This leads me to believe that PR may shred the cheese blocks based on the expected volume of orders so that the shredded cheese does not sit around too long before using. Also, it is possible, or maybe even likely, that the shredded cheeses are refrigerated and that the drawers holding the shredded cheeses are kept closed when not in use, as seems to be the case from the various videos, such that the shreds do not have a chance to warm up and stick to each other. In this vein, this is what Papa John's says on the matter in its employee manual:

Makeline should be 33į to 38įF (~1į to ~3įC), both in the topping well on top and in the refrigerated compartments underneath. Correct the temperature, if necessary.,

Make sure containers are filled according to the MDOG (Managerís Daily Operations Guide).  For example, containers must be full for a high volume lunch and only half full for a low volume lunch, and

Never add new cheese over old cheese

So, if the above measures are followed, perhaps there is no need to add anything to the shredded cheese to prevent the shreds from sticking together.

With respect to the temperature at which dough balls should be opened is concerned, my practice has been like yours. In my case, I tended to use an internal temperature of around 70 degrees F. That value just seemed to work the best for me. However, I should add that the dough's hydration value may be a factor. For example, you may have read of professionals, and even some of our members, who open the dough balls when cold. However, when I looked to see what the dough hydration values were used, they were usually above average. In your case with your PR clone doughs and their low hydration values, you may want to let the dough balls warm up longer, even if that means that the dough balls have a higher interior temperature at the time of use to make pizzas than the 50-60 degrees F range.

Getting back to the cheese issue, the other day I stumbled across a post by Pizza Shark that spent a lot of time talking about the aging of the cheese in the context of PR. I bookmarked the post to be able to cite it to you in the event that you did not previously see it. Here is the post:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3712.msg30850#msg30850

What hit home with me was how long the cheese could be aged, and the effects that the aging had not only on the color but also the flavor, the melting properties, and oiling off characteristics. Maybe that is the explanation for what you have experienced in eating the PR pizzas.

Finally, with respect to the possible use of provolone cheese to get a more buttery flavor, my recollection is that scott r (Scott) said that PR did not use provolone cheese. If so, and if no grated cheeses are part of the PR "blend", that begs the question of what is the missing ingredient in the blend. On this point, I might add that all block cheeses are "blends" in that they contain several ingredients. For example, as noted at https://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/brands/details/great-lakes-cheese/2, the ingredients for the Great Lakes LMPS mozzarella cheese comprises a "blend" of Pasteurized part-skim milk, cheese cultures, salt and enzymes. So, maybe Anthony was just being a bit loose with the term "blend". Just sayin'.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 17, 2018, 11:53:07 AM
Wow this TripAdvisor thing is getting quite a lot of attention to be on the Today show ;D
Norma,
From my testing the cheese was saltier than my Empire. When eating the slice though I donít notice the salt being too high. The cold taste tests showed saltier, butter tasting cheese.

Peter,
Interesting to read of cheese storage as Iíve been wondering. Thank you and thatís a good point about the cheese and makes sense. They go through so much at a time, so itís different than my operation. Pizzashark did stress the importance of aging. Iíve found it does lead to awesome results as my Empire has been aging for 2 months now. But it just doesnít have the same fake butter taste cold that theirs does. This leads me to believe maybe there is something added. Thatís such a good point about all loaves being a blend. Anthony could definitely have meant just a regular loaf. I wonder if a butter tasting additive could be added to the cheese in production of the loaf. I feel that it has to be that or sprayed on the shredded cheese, or just really fatty mozz. The thing with fatty mozz is their cheese tasted like pure butter compared to cheddar which tasted like high fat cheese. Good point about them not using provolone according to Scott.

I find it to be interesting when news articles call Reginaís sauce ďspicy.Ē  I use this term when there are some forms of peppers or chileís used. Maybe they mean the oregano, but then Iíd call it seasoned sauce.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 17, 2018, 12:18:11 PM
Peter,
Interesting to read of cheese storage as Iíve been wondering. Thank you and thatís a good point about the cheese and makes sense. They go through so much at a time, so itís different than my operation. Pizzashark did stress the importance of aging. Iíve found it does lead to awesome results as my Empire has been aging for 2 months now. But it just doesnít have the same fake butter taste cold that theirs does. This leads me to believe maybe there is something added. Thatís such a good point about all loaves being a blend. Anthony could definitely have meant just a regular loaf. I wonder if a butter tasting additive could be added to the cheese in production of the loaf. I feel that it has to be that or sprayed on the shredded cheese, or just really fatty mozz. The thing with fatty mozz is their cheese tasted like pure butter compared to cheddar which tasted like high fat cheese. Good point about them not using provolone according to Scott.
Pod4477,

If you decide to call Empire, in addition to any other questions you would like to pose, you might ask if they do things like add buttery flavors to their cheese, either their shredded cheeses or loaf cheeses.

I'm still waiting to know more about the "special natural yeast" that PR uses. If it is so special, why haven't Anthony and his podcast interview, or any of the videos played up its importance? If the recipe used at PR is now about 92 years, isn't it about time that PR tells us what's up with the special natural yeast? :-D

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 17, 2018, 12:40:58 PM
I find it to be interesting when news articles call Reginaís sauce ďspicy.Ē  I use this term when there are some forms of peppers or chileís used. Maybe they mean the oregano, but then Iíd call it seasoned sauce.
Pod3377,

If I were to guess, the term "spicy", which you will also see at the PR website (http://www.pizzeriaregina.com/), is just puffery, and a part of PR's marketing and promotion of its pizzas. I notice that Louis Hubbell, an executive chef at PR, was at the Today show, so he may have prepped the tasters on their pizza. This aside, there are some people who are not aware that spicy relates to spices as opposed to herbs or other flavors.

A good part of what we have seen is actors in the videos. For example, Wicked Bites calls its actors cast members. See, for example, the credits of Leigh Gilmore, at https://www.tvguide.com/celebrities/leigh-gilmore/credits/1059414/607220/. You can see what she looks like below. I think you can see why I look for facts and evidence and truth, rather than sales pitches. But, with annual 2017 sales of $24,286,000 and in the 91 spot of top pizzerias, I suppose that PR has to work harder for sales (https://www.pizzatoday.com/pizzeria-rankings/2017-top-100-pizza-companies/). FYI, PR made it on another 2018 favorites list at https://www.thedailymeal.com/eat/americas-favorite-pizza-chains-2018-gallery/slide-27. That is for chain pizza, where it places #10.

BTW, Scott get nice reviews also, for his pizzeria Stoked: https://www.boston.com/food/restaurants/2017/06/09/where-to-find-bostons-cheesiest-chewiest-sauciest-pizzas.

Also, FYI, there is a nice PR Yelp photo montage (supposedly with 1021 photos) at https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/regina-pizzeria-boston-28. I noticed that even the napkins mention the special natural yeast.   

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 17, 2018, 01:58:54 PM


Wow this TripAdvisor thing is getting quite a lot of attention to be on the Today show ;D
Norma,
From my testing the cheese was saltier than my Empire. When eating the slice though I donít notice the salt being too high. The cold taste tests showed saltier, butter tasting cheese.



Pod4477,

Thanks for telling us that from your testing the cheese it was saltier than your Empire cheese.  PR's probably has the sauce/cheese ratio balanced so the salt amount of the cheese isn't to high.

Just a side note about when I was looking for a certain cheddar in big blocks (40 lbs) for a pizza I wanted clone.  Did find where the pizzeria was supposing to be getting the cheddar and called them to see why my big blocks of cheddar tasted different.  The distributor did say they aged loads of those 40 lbs. blocks for the pizzeria, but never got down to that distributor to find out if the cheddar tasted different.  It was in another state.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 17, 2018, 11:35:36 PM
Interesting about the actors. That girls looks familiar haha. It can be tough to navigate through the marketing. So I got a bbq slice tonight and I think I can say that the caramalized cheese is the source of the ďoven flavorĒ I had mentioned before. It doesnít happen on every slice so itís been tough to figure out. It only happens on bubbles when the cheese and probably sauce are isolated on the bubble.

I like that youíre in search of the truth Peter. I wonder about the special yeast as well. Iím starting to think the dough is still a bit different than mine and I wonder if itís the yeast or just the process. Iím getting very close but my soggy part of dough under the sauce doesnít smell the same as theirs. Iím going to do another smell test again of my pizza. Iíve been able to get the dough very close to theirs, especially the Maillard faction on the crust, but I still feel the crumb doesnít taste and smell exactly like theirs. I doubt itís any flavor from the oven, the sauce, and most likely not the cheese (although maybe the butter flavor is seeping through), so that leaves the dough.

I donít believe itís the flour or water thatís crazy different than mine, so that leaves the yeast, possible oil, and sugar. I doubt they use sugar but pizzashark uses it. Maybe itís just better fermentation than mine.

Np Norma! I should call Empire tomorrow and thank you for the advice Peter. As far as ratios go, Iíve heard they use equal parts cheese to sauce from a worker there. The cheese was very salty during my melt tests though, much more than my Empire. So either something is added to the cheese post shred or itís a special loaf. Had to be, because my Empire was the real deal and theirs tasted vastly different. Norma good points with your journey and it makes me believe there are different loaves for some of these pizzerias or something added to them.

For months I have been using only Mozzarella and it never tasted and smelled the same as PR, so I believe they are trying to do what other chains are doing: enhance their products to excite peopleís senses and taste buds almost in the way MSG does. This makes sense since Pizzashark worked at PR in the 90s when they were smaller. I think ever since they expanded they wanted to enhance their cheese. I could be wrong but the workers seem to note the extreme buttery taste too. I think my cheese is close though, especially if I add butter or butter flavoring. Im still doing taste tests but Iím going to focus most of my efforts now back on to the dough. I still have a lot to learn about fermentation.

I have another question: after I mix in the food processor should I bulk rise my dough first and then put it in the fridge for 3-7 days, or go straight from food processor to fridge?  My process is as follows:
1.  Add flour to food processor
2.  Add IDY to left side of processor
3.  Add Salt to right side of processor
(Sometimes I add IDY and then pulse and then add Salt and pulse)
4.  Add water and oil either separately or together as I turn on the food processor.
5.  Once it gathers into a ball I process for another 15 seconds.
6.  I take it out of the food processor and knead for 1 min or less and shape into a ball. Lately Iíve been pressing down the dough ball and placing in either a freezer bag or container.

I wonder if the 30 min stand mixing at PR in the 90s (that pizzashark mentioned) is something I should be doing. My dough seems to have enough gluten development from the food processor though. Any suggestions? Appreciated!
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 18, 2018, 06:50:33 AM
Pod4477,

This is probably not related to PR's pizzas, but have wondered why some of the cheese appears to look caramelized on some of the pizzas.  Do those pizzas have a different taste when the cheese is caramelized or blacken some? Something like on this video.

  https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/regina-pizzeria-boston-28?select_video=lK3oAMQaDIdfszH5EzUchg

Another reason why I am wondering about the caramelized cheese is because I was kinda worried about my own cheese this week.  I had to freeze blocks of cheeses because I was off for surgery for many weeks.  I took the blocks out of the freezer Sunday and put them into the deli case to thaw till Monday.  The blocks were still mostly frozen and then the grate of the cheese was off, from the cheese being half frozen.  The pizzas on Tuesday had that same kind of caramel color/black spots on some parts of the cheese.  No customers said the pizzas tasted differently, and I didn't even taste any, but it wonders me how the cheese got caramelized in different place when it normally doesn't.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 18, 2018, 11:18:58 AM
Pod4477,

I don't think I would rule out the flour completely. While flours with similar protein content can all be used to make pizza dough, they can still yield different crust flavors, especially if they are based on particular wheat grain varieties from different parts of the country. One of our members mentioned ADM as the source of PR's flour. But that would be hard to substantiate because the answer to that question most likely resides at the PR commissary, not at the store level where the workers do not usually have access to, or a need for, that kind of information. However, it might not hurt to ask workers at PM, if only to confirm my suspicions on that point.

As for the saltiness of the PR cheese, it is common for producers to add salt to their cheese formulations. You can see that, for example, with respect to the Grande cheeses, both block and shredded, in the document at https://www.grandecheese.com/products/pdf/grande_product_details. Even Great Lakes does it, as you can see at:

https://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/details/DFA242, and

https://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/details/DFA263

When you call Empire, you might ask them if they will add more salt to their block cheeses if a customer requests it. That would be a better way to do things than to have workers at the PR restaurants add more salt to the cheeses. I personally would not trust that approach. You perhaps will also want to ask Empire if they add anything like butter flavorings to their cheeses if so requested by a customer, or is it the aging that produces that effect? In the past when I have called food producers, I would sometimes tell them that I am a consultant and trying to help a client. And I have never been questioned as to my credentials, most likely because I use their own lingo. If you plan at some point to open up your own pizzeria, then you can tell them that and that you are doing research to find the best products. You can even use PR as an example of what you are looking for. However you do these things, the objective is to try to get information about what PR does that PR has not revealed to date or has possibly misrepresented, even if innocently.

The procedure you outlined to make dough using a food processor looks fine to me. However, you might add the oil after an initial knead of the dough, as is frequently advised by Tom Lehmann. Oil has a wetting effect on the flour in the dough but it does not hydrate the flour. Only water can do that. I don't think that you should knead the dough any more than necessary, and certainly not for thirty minutes in a food processor. That would completely and utterly destroy the dough and make it unusable, as I once discovered and described in a simple experiment that lasted only a few minutes at Reply 14 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1187.msg10649/topicseen.html#msg10649. In your case, you may want to use colder water than normal to keep the finished dough temperature in the proper range (around 70-75 degrees F). I would also go from the processor bowl to the refrigerator after balling, much as PR would do at its commissary, although they might put the dough balls in a very cold refrigerating environment to get the dough balls nice and cold quickly to the desired temperature and basically suspend fermentation before delivery to their stores. My recollection is that is the way that Domino's and, most likely, Papa John's, do it.

I don't know if it will help but several years ago I described how I use my food processor to make pizza dough, at Reply 1 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2189.msg19291;topicseen#msg19291

You might also take a look at this Serious Eats article:

https://slice.seriouseats.com/2011/02/pizza-protips-kneading-converting-recipes-for-food-processor.html

As a final thought, I think it is important to keep in mind that when running a business with many stores, as is the case with PR, it is best to keep the KISS method in mind. As a business, you want to keep everything as simple as possible, not only in a commissary but also at the store level. And it is more important to keep things at the store level as simple as possible because workers come and go with regularity and you don't want to always be training new workers on what you want them to do. Adding water to cans of Stanislaus or some dried oregano or grated cheese to the sauce is perhaps OK but even then I would want to do as much of that up front, not at the level where workers are making the pizzas, although they should be able to add fresh basil to the pizzas as they are dressing them. I also don't think you want the workers to be messing around with adding other stuff to the cheese and sauce. You want the pizza makers to just assemble pizzas as much as possible, much like the big pizza chain workers do, as I have observed at Papa John's and other such chains

Peter.

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 18, 2018, 01:09:54 PM
Norma,
Very important observation and one that Iíve wondered for a while. Canít remember what the charred cheese tasted like in picture 1 unfortunately, but I have noticed a lot of caramalization, especially at the North End location. Sometimes the cheese seems to burn there, but this seems rare. Is the caramalization (or burning/charring in the first pic) in the pics below what you are talking about?  I wonder if it does have to do with partially cold cheese that you experienced at your place. I know serious eats suggested freezing their cheese a bit to hold off the melting.

The caramalized cheese only seems to have a vastly different taste when it gets super caramalized/charred on bubbles of their dough, Iíve found. The taste is what I call ďmystery oven tasteĒ since I canít seem to replicate it with my oven  :P and since it only seems to happen from lower heat ovens not over 700-800į. I could be wrong about this but it seems to happen a lot in Braintree, but surprisingly was absent from the cheese only pie.  This led me I believe the taste is from the cheese and sauce caramalizing/charring, not just the cheese alone, but this could be wrong as my bbq slice last night seemed to have the ďmystery oven tasteĒ on a bubble with cheese. Could be a mix of cheese temp and oven temp and maybe Maillard reaction causing caramalization that Iím seeing, thatís my guess.

Peter,
Youíre right about flour as KA was completely different than Gold Medal, even at the all purpose line. That could be the reason for the smell difference when it stays soggy. Thank you for the advice for calling Empire. Iíll have to use those tactics when I call. Since adding more salt is a common practice Iím debating making my own mozzarella at this point. Maybe I can make it saltier and add butter flavoring. I know salt is easier to add than flavoring though.

Thank you for the advice on the dough too. So in the case of the oil, Iíd pulse until itís a ball and kneaded a bit, then add the oil and continue to pulse until incorporated?  Also, Iíll probably need to use hot water to dissolve the salt and then temper it back to cold right? Thank you!

I had done some of these methods with a KA stand mixer but wasnít sure with my food processor. Itís a very good suggestion. I forgot to mention I do use cold water now and the final dough temp was around 75į so that helped a lot. Sorry if I jumbled my thoughts together but I just meant that I wonder if I should be mixing in a stand mixer for 30 min instead of using the food processor.  Very tough with drier dough of course and a mixer not as powerful as theirs, thatís why Iíve been doing batches in the processor anyway. Thank you for the links! I have been putting them right into the fridge, but does Serious Eats bulk room temp rise then first just to expedite fermentation?  Iíll have to read your posts as well since itís my main way of mixing now and you know your stuff.

Youíre right, KISS is something that they definitely practice and Iíve been thinking about that in my own routine. Iíve cut down on extra steps and ingredients. Iím amazed at the smell of the dough after 7 days as well.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: ebpizza on October 18, 2018, 06:32:37 PM
I think this was the thread about Great Lakes.

If you live in the Boston area, Market Basket sells it
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 18, 2018, 07:33:47 PM
Thank you for the advice on the dough too. So in the case of the oil, Iíd pulse until itís a ball and kneaded a bit, then add the oil and continue to pulse until incorporated?  Also, Iíll probably need to use hot water to dissolve the salt and then temper it back to cold right? Thank you!

I had done some of these methods with a KA stand mixer but wasnít sure with my food processor. Itís a very good suggestion. I forgot to mention I do use cold water now and the final dough temp was around 75į so that helped a lot. Sorry if I jumbled my thoughts together but I just meant that I wonder if I should be mixing in a stand mixer for 30 min instead of using the food processor.  Very tough with drier dough of course and a mixer not as powerful as theirs, thatís why Iíve been doing batches in the processor anyway. Thank you for the links! I have been putting them right into the fridge, but does Serious Eats bulk room temp rise then first just to expedite fermentation?  Iíll have to read your posts as well since itís my main way of mixing now and you know your stuff.

Pod4477,

Yes, you can add the oil to the dough once the dough comes together. There is no need to use hot water to dissolve the salt. You can add it to the water and stir if you would like. Basically, what you are trying to is to replicate as much as possible the procedure that Tom Lehmann recommends to professionals but using a food processor instead of a commercial mixer. Of course, you will be making only a few dough balls, not a commercial batch. Tom's procedure is set forth at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43833.0

If you elect to use a stand mixer, I still don't think you need a 30-minute knead time. Once you get a smooth appearance for the dough, you should be able to stop the mix. There is also no need to do a bulk rise before balling and refrigerating. In a commercial setting, as reflected by Tom's dough management procedure, the dough balls are formed from a bulk dough and during the roughly 20-minute period that the balling process takes, there is a relaxation of the dough balls as they are formed, along with better hydration of the dough balls, and maybe a small bit of fermentation. In a commissary, the procedures are different because the equipment makes dough balls almost continuously and the dough balls are cooled down as fast as possible and, as a result, fermentation is kept brief. That is required because the dough balls have to last for up to 8 days. In PR's case, with only 20 stores, I am not sure what their volume is.

In your case, you can put the dough balls into containers with the lids off for about an hour or so, to cool down faster, and then put the lids back on for the duration of the fermentation time. You should also be able to use bags to hold the dough balls, even used bread bags.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 18, 2018, 09:22:42 PM
Ebpizza,
Thank you I didnít realize it was sold there. Iíve been using preshredded in my bakes lately and tonight they came out good. I wonder if they have a whole milk variety. How do you guys feel about using preshredded with the cellulose?

Peter,
Thank you for your advice. I followed all your steps today adding the oil in last and using very cold water. Dough temp was 73į out of the food processor. I followed your forum posts form the other thread too and it came out very good. Normally Iíd refrigerate but I was making same day dough for dinner. I put them in flour and in an 85į oven proof setting for about 4 hours. The dough probably didnít ferment quite enough but it came out just like Denly Gardens around here. I added clarified butter with the milk solids to my Galbani preshredded mozz and the smell was that of PR. I used 7oz sauce and 7oz cheese and cooked with my flame guard on the Ooni. Iím very happy with the results. Iíll have to try this with 7 day cold ferment next time. The Galbani isnít as good as Empire though. The cheese pizza tasted just like Denly Gardens and looked like it too.  Itís amazing what a watery sauce, Italian Oregenano, and less cheese can do. 
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 19, 2018, 05:36:26 AM
Norma,
Very important observation and one that Iíve wondered for a while. Canít remember what the charred cheese tasted like in picture 1 unfortunately, but I have noticed a lot of caramalization, especially at the North End location. Sometimes the cheese seems to burn there, but this seems rare. Is the caramalization (or burning/charring in the first pic) in the pics below what you are talking about?  I wonder if it does have to do with partially cold cheese that you experienced at your place. I know serious eats suggested freezing their cheese a bit to hold off the melting.

The caramalized cheese only seems to have a vastly different taste when it gets super caramalized/charred on bubbles of their dough, Iíve found. The taste is what I call ďmystery oven tasteĒ since I canít seem to replicate it with my oven  :P and since it only seems to happen from lower heat ovens not over 700-800į. I could be wrong about this but it seems to happen a lot in Braintree, but surprisingly was absent from the cheese only pie.  This led me I believe the taste is from the cheese and sauce caramalizing/charring, not just the cheese alone, but this could be wrong as my bbq slice last night seemed to have the ďmystery oven tasteĒ on a bubble with cheese. Could be a mix of cheese temp and oven temp and maybe Maillard reaction causing caramalization that Iím seeing, thatís my guess.


Pod4477,

Thanks for your information about noticing more caramelization from the North end.  Photo below on what I wondered about if those darker spots on the cheese make the pizza taste any different.  Think that is how some of my pizzas looked Tuesday, from using the partly frozen cheese.  Really don't think that using the partly frozen cheese caused those, but probably was from the finer grate of the cheese, but who knows.  :-D

The ďmystery oven tasteĒ sure is intriguing.  BTW, you recent pizzas are looking very good.  :chef: :pizza:


Going back to January 1998, this appears to be PR's International Development Agreement for franchises.  Seems quite intensive.

https://contracts.onecle.com/boston-restaurant/regina-development-1998-01.shtml


One other article from 2006.

http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/efxapi/EFX_dll/EDGARpro.dll?FetchFilingHTML1?ID=4700548&SessionID=DoTiejaYAmUHoU7

Wonder why the article below says that in the 3-6 days that the dough ferments that gives the yeast in the dough enough time to die, creating little black spots on the crust.  Would think that just those many days fermenting would give a unique flavor to the crust, in combination with different bakes. 

The proofing of the dough, where a little heat is added, ensures no bubbles form when the pizzas are baking.  From photos I saw there are some bubbles sometimes.

https://www.fontanini.com/food-service/fontanini-helps-make-boston-pizzeria-must-eat

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 19, 2018, 09:56:57 AM
Ebpizza,
Thank you I didnít realize it was sold there. Iíve been using preshredded in my bakes lately and tonight they came out good. I wonder if they have a whole milk variety. How do you guys feel about using preshredded with the cellulose?

Peter,
Thank you for your advice. I followed all your steps today adding the oil in last and using very cold water. Dough temp was 73į out of the food processor. I followed your forum posts form the other thread too and it came out very good. Normally Iíd refrigerate but I was making same day dough for dinner. I put them in flour and in an 85į oven proof setting for about 4 hours. The dough probably didnít ferment quite enough but it came out just like Denly Gardens around here. I added clarified butter with the milk solids to my Galbani preshredded mozz and the smell was that of PR. I used 7oz sauce and 7oz cheese and cooked with my flame guard on the Ooni. Iím very happy with the results. Iíll have to try this with 7 day cold ferment next time. The Galbani isnít as good as Empire though. The cheese pizza tasted just like Denly Gardens and looked like it too.  Itís amazing what a watery sauce, Italian Oregenano, and less cheese can do.
Pod4477,

I agree with Norma. Your pizzas look very good, and especially for pizzas that were made using same day doughs. In fact, had you told us that the pizzas were PR pizzas, I would have believed you. You might want to post some of your PR clone pizzas at this thread, where you can get more feedback and maybe Likes from the members:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg265267#msg265267

The above thread is second on the list of the most viewed threads on the forum, with 1,117,109 views as of this posting.

With respect to your cellulose question, yesterday, while I was at the supermarket, I took a look at the labels of many of the cheeses offered, both shredded and block, and across several different brands. Many of the shredded cheeses had a combination of potato starch and cellulose as anti-caking agents. But there were also brands that were like the one that ebpizza cited, with corn starch and calcium sulfate also used as anti-caking agents. There were literally hundreds of cheese products but I did not see any shredded cheeses in the brands I looked at that did not have anti-caking agents. On the other hand, when I looked at the block cheeses, also from different sources, but focusing more on mozzarella cheeses, what I saw was the standard set of ingredients, namely, Pasteurized part-skim milk, cheese cultures, salt and enzymes. I did not see any whole-milk mozzarella cheeses but it is possible that they were hidden somewhere among the hundreds of cheese products offered. But I suspect that if there is a whole-milk product is offered, the ingredients will be like the part-skim mozzarella cheese in block form.

From my limited research, it looks like anti-caking agents are unavoidable in shredded cheeses. On the other hand, the block products are pretty clean. That should be good news for any of the block cheeses offered by Great Lakes and Empire. And if my speculation that PR is able to shred blocks of Empire or Great Lakes cheeses without having to add anything to them than perhaps grated cheeses, then what is offered to diners is a clean product, free of anti-caking agents. Of course, there are other factors involved such as aging of the block cheeses and managing the shredded cheeses properly to achieve the desired results. Once you have a chance to talk to Empire, I think you are likely to get more details on their cheeses and what they do to them, either naturally or upon request of their commercial accounts.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Zing on October 19, 2018, 10:25:40 AM
Ebpizza,
Thank you I didnít realize it was sold there. Iíve been using preshredded in my bakes lately and tonight they came out good. I wonder if they have a whole milk variety. How do you guys feel about using preshredded with the cellulose?


The product Ebpizza linked to is squarely aimed at the retail supermarket market. AFAIK, it only is available in Part Skim. They may also sell a whole milk version through food service channels. While I have seen smaller packages of the part skim, they sell a 2 pound bag (SKU 036514209806) and a 5 pound bag (SKU 036514208755). These items have a long shelf life. These items need to have anti clumping products added.

I have mainly seen it sold in international supermarkets. It is also distributed by wholesalers such as SuperValu to independent grocers. Deep discounter Price Rite sells it:
https://www.instacart.com/pricerite/products/3187556-great-lakes-shredded-mozzarella-cheese-5-lb

My favorite Swiss cheese is also made by Great Lakes, both in loaves sliced at Service Delis, and in pre-sliced retail packages.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 19, 2018, 10:26:54 AM
Norma,

Thank you for citing the two legal documents. In the course of my research, I ran across a few similar documents. And my practice when finding such documents is to search the documents using terms like pizza, cheese, sauce, and so on. That spares me from having to read the entire documents to find those terms. However, I actually enjoy reading legal documents because the submitters have to tell the truth and suffer any consequences for not doing so. Over the weekend, I and going to try to read the two documents you cited. As an aside, I noticed that PR did not consider Paul Buccieri's place in Chelsea to be a PR competitor in the documents you cited. PR only mentioned pizza chains, like Domino's, Papa John's and Pizza Hut, plus a few lesser names.

As for the Fontanini document, I found that document from my research and laughed when I saw the reference to the dying yeast. I think it was just sloppy writing. I believe what Fontanini was trying to say is that at some point the yeast starts to run out of food, either natural simple sugars from enzyme activity or from any added sugars that have been converted to simple sugars, and that it is advisable to use the dough at about that time. But when yeast runs out of food, that also means that there will be little or no residual sugars to contribute to crust coloration. Of course, if one is looking for a light colored finished crust, that is one way to achieve that result, and that may be the reason why PR uses a long fermentation. I also tend to doubt that the black spots in dough are visible in the finished crust. I think that is more sloppy writing. Black spots can occur for many reasons and can occur at different stages of fermentation, but they are harmless. But I do agree with you that long fermentations contribute meaningfully to the flavors in the crust.

As you may know, Fontanini is big in the Chicago area, and are well known for their sausage products and the quality of those products. I believe that PR at one point made their own sausage but no longer does so, and they now use Fontanini. Fontanini was acquired not long ago by Hormel. When I looked at the sausage pellets at the Fontanini foodservice website, at https://www.fontanini.com/food-service, and also at https://www.fontanini.com/food-services/product-category-foodservice/pizza-toppings, they looked like what I have seen in some photos of PR sausage pizzas. Making sausage for one or a few places makes sense but not when you get to around twenty places.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 19, 2018, 01:07:32 PM
Zing,

Thanks for posting on the subject of shredded cheeses. When I looked at the Galbani ingredients list for mozzarella cheese, at instacart, I see that rice flour is also used as an anti-caking agent:

https://www.instacart.com/pricerite/products/16509663-galbani-shredded-mozzarella-cheese-32-0-oz

In the same vein, another anti-clumping agent that I saw a while back is sugarcane fiber. That is part of the cheese blend that Papa John's uses, from its supplier Leprino Foods, as part of PJ's efforts to go more natural with its ingredients:

https://www.papajohns.com/company/papa-johns-ingredients.html

As for a retail level whole-milk mozzarella cheese in a chunk form, apparently Safeway carries such a product:

https://www.instacart.com/safeway/products/6845-lucerne-whole-milk-mozzarella-cheese-16-oz

I regularly shop at a Safeway affliliate and I am sure I have seen that product before, but I haven't checked recently.

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 19, 2018, 01:38:58 PM
Thanks you both for your pizza compliments! I went back to using lump charcoal and the new flame guard really helps to ensure the pizzas donít burn. I took a charbroil burner guard, bent it, and slid in the firebox. Thanks Norma for posting the documents! Iíll be reading them as well. Interesting about how you said it may be from the grate of the cheese. Iíll have to do some tests again.

Iíve been thinking about the caramalized/sometimes charred cheese at PR.  I donít really get any different flavors from them, but the parts near the rim or on bubbles definitely seem to have that interesting mystery flavor. The flavor is tough to explain but itís oily and deep flavored, while being different than the rest of the cheese. I donít believe itís from whatever butter flavor PR has to their cheese as Iíve tasted this flavor at some of the best NY pizza joints. I thought it may be the seasoning used, but it canít be because I dont taste it in every PR slice. It seems that it only happens from deck ovens around 500Ishį, so my theory is that itís from the caramalized cheese/sauce either pushed up from bubbles or along the crust, during long bakes. Itís something only NY pizza has and not every slice.

I remember PR mentioning the dead yeast and how it shows as black dots on the dough. I found this interesting and Iíve tried looking for evidence of this. I only found possible black dots on the North End pies, but I always assumed that was from the oven. The picture below shows black marks. In Braintree, there are no black marks ever.

Thank you Peter for the link to the thread as Iíll post some of my pics there! Interesting about the sausage as Pizzashark had mentioned their sausage too. I very rarely get it, but it has been good on the Giambatta. Those pizza should last night were all using Galbani Shredded WMM. I found Empire to taste a bit better, but I was amazed at how well the Galbani melts. They use oil and cellulose I believe, but I also added clarified butter with the milk solids. The grease was amazing and was exactly like the Denly Gardens pizza I posted last week. Thank you for saying itís good for a same day dough too. This was bordering on emergency dough and by the end of the night, a ball of left over dough had properly fermented I believe.

I wanted to ask: so I looked at the fermentation chart for .20% IDY and at 85į Dough temp, I believe the time was 2 or 3 hours. Now is that just minimal fermentation time? I figured Iíd follow the chart but I left it in the oven for 4 hours at 85į, and while it definitely fermented enough, the crumb was the usual white color with bland taste, Iím guessing from not enough residual sugars. I had the piece left over that I left out at 70į room temp for 4 additional hours (8 hours total now) and it was soft and I believe was fermented better. I assume this is because I should be either upping the yeast or upping the finished dough temp, but Iím always weary of too much yeast taste and with a food processor I donít want to kill the yeast. Iím assuming I just need more fermentation time to add flavor to the crumb and change it from the white bland color. Is this right?

Pete-zza,
I use Instacart a lot now. Rice flour seems like a better option than cellulose. Are there any Safewayís in MA?

Also, how do you guys feel about bromate flour caked on my crust like PR? Is it still raw or do you think the oven temps bake out the bromate?
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 19, 2018, 02:15:46 PM
Norma,

Thank you for citing the two legal documents. In the course of my research, I ran across a few similar documents. And my practice when finding such documents is to search the documents using terms like pizza, cheese, sauce, and so on. That spares me from having to read the entire documents to find those terms. However, I actually enjoy reading legal documents because the submitters have to tell the truth and suffer any consequences for not doing so. Over the weekend, I and going to try to read the two documents you cited. As an aside, I noticed that PR did not consider Paul Buccieri's place in Chelsea to be a PR competitor in the documents you cited. PR only mentioned pizza chains, like Domino's, Papa John's and Pizza Hut, plus a few lesser names.

Peter

Peter,

I thought you might have found similar legal documents in your researches.  Thanks for telling me what your practices are in searching documents.  Will have to remember that if my brain can remember. 

I had thought I read somewhere that there might be a PR's in Florida.  Came across this in the next search.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/926295/000102986998000957/0001029869-98-000957.txt

Looks like PR's was trying to develop the Pizzeria Regina brand.  They must have found a way to do new packaging and distribution methods for shipping pizza dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 19, 2018, 03:03:24 PM
I wanted to ask: so I looked at the fermentation chart for .20% IDY and at 85į Dough temp, I believe the time was 2 or 3 hours. Now is that just minimal fermentation time? I figured Iíd follow the chart but I left it in the oven for 4 hours at 85į, and while it definitely fermented enough, the crumb was the usual white color with bland taste, Iím guessing from not enough residual sugars. I had the piece left over that I left out at 70į room temp for 4 additional hours (8 hours total now) and it was soft and I believe was fermented better. I assume this is because I should be either upping the yeast or upping the finished dough temp, but Iím always weary of too much yeast taste and with a food processor I donít want to kill the yeast. Iím assuming I just need more fermentation time to add flavor to the crumb and change it from the white bland color. Is this right?

Pete-zza,
I use Instacart a lot now. Rice flour seems like a better option than cellulose. Are there any Safewayís in MA?

Pod4477,

Your numbers for the dough you made are correct. However, Craig has mentioned many times in the thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg271398#msg271398 that his model is not perfect and that members may get results that are not consistent with his model. In those cases, Craig asks members to post their results so that he can consider them. So, you might want to post what you did using his model and give him all of the relevant details. But, in general, the fermentation contemplated by Craig's chart is intended to cover bulk fermentation, fermentation of dough balls, and the rest of the time to the point where the dough is used to make pizzas. In your case, if you used a lot of oil, say, above 3%, you might want to mention the amount you used to Craig. He has reported that his numbers in the model contemplate normal amounts of ingredients like salt, yeast, sugar and oil.

Generally speaking, to convert a recipe to be usable to make a short-term or emergency dough, one might double the amount of yeast and raise the water temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of about 85-90 degrees F. You might also need to take other measures, such as increasing the hydration value to speed up the fermentation process. Using a high gluten flour or a bread flour with a high protein value should also contribute to crust coloration. Adding sugar is unlikely to be particularly productive because it takes a long time to convert that sugar to simple sugars for the yeast to feed on and to increase residual sugar levels to contribute to crust coloration. Using honey instead of sugar is likely to be a better choice. I would not worry about killing the yeast when using your food processor. You would have to get to about 140 degrees F to kill the yeast.

You might want to read the post at Reply 407 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg27251#msg27251 to gain a better understanding of how to best achieve an emergency dough. You should also read the items linked in Reply 407 (see the edits at the end of Reply 407).

In your last post, you mentioned that PR mentioned the dead yeast and how it shows as black dots on the dough. Can you tell me where you read or heard that?

As for Safeway stores in Massachusetts, you are perhaps aware that Albertson's and Safeway combined a few years ago. Both stores had several companies that did not carry either the Safeway or Albertson's name. In addition to the Safeway and Albertson names, here are the others as of this date to the best of my knowledge:

Vons, Jewel-Osco, Shaw's, Acme, Tom Thumb, Randalls, United Supermarkets, Pavilions, Star Market and Carrs

If you go to this page, https://www.safeway.com/ShopStores/tools/store-locator.page, and type Massachusetts into the search box, I believe that you will find that there are about 20 stores in Massachusetts.

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 19, 2018, 03:22:30 PM
Peter,

I thought you might have found similar legal documents in your researches.  Thanks for telling me what your practices are in searching documents.  Will have to remember that if my brain can remember. 

I had thought I read somewhere that there might be a PR's in Florida.  Came across this in the next search.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/926295/000102986998000957/0001029869-98-000957.txt

Looks like PR's was trying to develop the Pizzeria Regina brand.  They must have found a way to do new packaging and distribution methods for shipping pizza dough.

Norma

Norma,

At one point, PR had locations outside of Massachusetts, including the location you mentioned in Florida. However, that location appears to have closed:

https://www.yelp.com/biz/pizzeria-regina-oviedo-2

Likewise the location in Paramus, NJ:

https://www.yelp.com/biz/pizzeria-regina-of-n-j-paramus

Likewise the location in Richmond, Va:

https://www.yelp.com/biz/pizzeria-regina-richmond

Likewise the NH locations:

https://www.yelp.com/biz/regina-pizzeria-manchester, and

https://www.yelp.com/biz/regina-pizzeria-nashua

The logic and logistics of locations in Florida, Virginia and New Jersey escapes me. I believe they were kiosks that sold slices in malls, with common seating in food courts. New Hampshire is more understandable because of its proximity to the Boston area. But even when chains have remote locations from their commissaries, the dough is made in store at those remote locations. That is true of Papa Gino's when I last looked into their operations. The big chains like Papa John's locate commissaries within a certain distance of their stores to be sure that twice a week deliveries can be made.

If you go to the main PR page, and click on the PR and Polcari's locations, there appear to be a total of 16 locations. I think the bankruptcy filing wiped out a few of the PR stores. I believe I found the document you cited as part of my past searches but I also intend to look at it in greater detail sometime over the weekend even though the document dates back to 1998. That is part of my ongoing education :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 19, 2018, 04:27:20 PM
Also, how do you guys feel about bromate flour caked on my crust like PR? Is it still raw or do you think the oven temps bake out the bromate?
Pod4477,

Most professionals, at least those that make a NY style of pizza, tend to use bromated flours, although many if not most millers will provide unbromated flours if so requested. From what I have read, potassium bromate in flours will be substantially neutered if the pizzas are baked at a high enough temperature for a long enough time, leaving low residual levels. Where bromated flours seem to provide advantages is in the kneading process where the dough is strengthened by the potassium bromate, enhancing its elasticity. The potassium bromate also bleaches the flour faster than can be achieved naturally.

At least PR is not in California, which treats potassium bromate as a carcinogen and requires that baked goods sold in California bear a store-level cancer warning if they contain more than a certain level of bromate. As a result, most California bakers have switched to bromate-free processes. The California case is also why companies like General Mills have so-called East and West flours, with the West flours usually being bromate free. It's not illegal to have and use bromated flours in California, as I was once told by a seller of bromated flours, but one must comply with the California statutes.

Tom Lehmann has good posts on this subject at:

Reply 14 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=32166.msg318528;topicseen#msg318528, and

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=44186.msg441995;topicseen#msg441995

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 19, 2018, 09:41:57 PM
Thank you Peter,
Iíll have to check out some of the stores. Shawís is the most prevent in my area. Iíll have to post to that thread too, thank you. Iíll have to try one of your tips for my emergency Dough. Good to know about the yeast as I must have been mistaken from somewhere I read about 100į in the food processor killing the yeast. I believe the PR reference to the black spots was in one of the videos. Iím going to go back and try to find which one. Thank you for your advice on the dough creation and thank you Pete-zza for bromate advice. I wonder if by the time my pizza is cooked throughly the bromate has cooked off of the caked on flour. Now I did cook that second pizza around 350-400į last night due to the wood burning out, so I hope that it cooked long enough to neuter the bromate. I wish there were more places here that had the bromate free All Trumps flour.

I got anotherís pizza tonight from PR. The crumb is so rediciously soft, although it tastes just like good bread. Most of the flavor comes from the Maillard reaction. Itís the same color as my pumpkin pie lol. The dough does taste perfectly fermented. So in order to get a very soft crumb would hydration have to be high? This dough wasnít cooked very long too which must have kept it from drying out. The texture of the crumb is like really soft Canadian white bread.

I can confirm that the ďoven flavorĒ I always talk about is definitely from the caramalized cheese. Itís pictured in picture 4 and my best guess is that itís from the long bake at 485į. I believe the sugar from the sauce may be adding to the flavor on these pieces too.

I rewatched https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZrK8YsGt3I
A few things stuck out to me. The dough is incredibly light and soft looking. Looks very similar to Neapolitan dough. Am I right or wrong about this? I sometimes think itís more like NY dough and sometimes I think itís higher hydration. Also, he states itís all mozzarella. I didnít realize that the first time. Pizzashark said the dough should be wet enough that it should start to stick to the board after a minute I believe. Could they be using 65-70% hydration and maybe all the caked on flour they use on the dough is just to prevent sticking? He also claims the oven get a up to the 800į range but Pizzashark claims only 600į.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pMR1Zbp1iWM&time_continue=1 Is the closest video that shows black specks in the dough. I canít find what I believe was an article posted about 2 weeks ago, but I could be wrong. In the article PR talks about how the black specks show up in the dough from the yeast dying, but many people think the black dots are from the oven. I canít believe that I canít find it.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Zing on October 20, 2018, 11:17:52 AM
The product Ebpizza linked to is squarely aimed at the retail supermarket market. AFAIK, it only is available in Part Skim. They may also sell a whole milk version through food service channels.

My research into Shakey's led me to Colony Foods of Lawrence, MA. They will apparently sell Leprino QLC cheese on a cash and carry basis. But, they were also the ones I saw with a listing for Empire LMWM shredded cheese.

According to their online product list, they sell:
Empire #45038 Diced LMWM
Empire #45036 Shredded LMWM
both in 5 pound bags, 4 bags to a case.

Their online product list is not working correctly, for their Excel full line list shows more than what you get when you select Pizza Cheese in the online directory, but you would have to step through hundreds of pages on the online product directly to see all the items they sell.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 20, 2018, 03:02:53 PM
Pod4477,

Before I address your specific questions, I wanted to let you know that I repeated and expanded my search for mozzarella cheeses, whether shredded or not, at the supermarkets where I do most of my shopping. The first supermarket was a Kroger store. That is the market where I reported yesterday on my review of their cheeses. Today, I looked at as many mozzarella cheese products that my eyeballs could comprehend, and the only whole milk mozzarella cheese product I found at Kroger was a string type mozzarella. My search at the second supermarket, which caters to a mostly Hispanic clientele and that also has a Mexican cheese section separate from the regular cheeses, also did not turn up any whole milk mozzarella cheeses. My search of the third supermarket, which caters to a high demographic clientele, turned up only one whole milk mozzarella cheese, a Lucerne product in a ball form. That market is a Safeway affiliate. So, maybe you will get lucky if you can find a similar product at another Safeway affiliate in Massachusetts. FYI, as previously noted, the Lucerne product looks like this:

https://www.instacart.com/safeway/products/6845-lucerne-whole-milk-mozzarella-cheese-16-oz

One of the interesting things that came out of my review of the dozens of mozzarella cheese products I looked at today, was that Kraft seems to use the fewest anti-caking agents in its mozzarella cheeses. I saw only one, a modified cornstarch. You can see an example at:

http://www.kraftrecipes.com/products/kraft-mozzarella-shredded-natur-4940.aspx

So, for those who want a cleaner product, Kraft may be a plus.

Sticking with the cheeses a bit further, I believe that you are correct that a PR employee, namely, Richie Zapata, said that the cheese they used was only mozzarella cheese. He seemed to be reluctant to say much about what PR does with its dough, sauce and mozzarella, so we can't be sure that he wasn't trying to protect PR's trade secrets, lest he be put on the carpet for doing so. When people hem and haw, as Richie did in the video you referenced, I get a bit suspicious. On the other side of the ledger, Anthony said that they use a "blend" of cheeses, and both he and Louis Hubbell said that the cheese that PR uses is made especially for them based on their specifications. At this point, I think we have pretty much exhausted what PR has told us about their cheeses in terms of the possibilities. The answers will have to be found elsewhere, whether it is through Great Lakes/Empire, a former employee, or maybe Paul Buccieri. And even those sources may turn up empty.

With respect to the black spots or dots that we have been discussing in the context of PR's dough, the only place I recall reading about those black dots or spots was in the Fontanini article. But there may be a semantics issue as to what those black dots or spots look like. And, often, those spots are present in an otherwise grayish tingedor dough. For example, look at the dough balls in these posts:

Reply 23 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg35370#msg35370, and

Reply 29 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg36081#msg36081.

Admittedly, the doughs discussed in the above posts had some age on them. But the phenomenon of black spots or dots in dough, and the gray tinge of the dough balls, prompted me to tackle the matter in greater detail. This led to the post at Reply 78 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg41385#msg41385.

Later in the same thread, Norma also encountered the black spots and gray dough, and reported on same at Reply 241 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg85495#msg85495

If you scan the thread where the above examples came from, you will see still other examples of the spotting phenomenon, and also several other posts discussing that phenomenon.

Turning now to the bromate issue you raised, I noticed in the videos that semolina was place on the makeup boards but that the dough balls seemed to be covered with bench flour, both as dough balls and skins that seemed to have been prepared in advance. I assume that the bake temperatures at PR's restaurants operate at high enough temperatures to reduce bromates to tolerable levels.

In your last post, you also reported the following:

I got anotherís pizza tonight from PR. The crumb is so ridiculously soft, although it tastes just like good bread. Most of the flavor comes from the Maillard reaction. Itís the same color as my pumpkin pie lol. The dough does taste perfectly fermented. So in order to get a very soft crumb would hydration have to be high? This dough wasnít cooked very long too which must have kept it from drying out. The texture of the crumb is like really soft Canadian white bread.

There are several ways of achieving a soft interior for a pizza crust. But, in general, these ways include using a weaker flour (lower protein level), a high hydration, including oil and/or sugar in the dough in good amounts, and baking the pizza at a high temperature for a brief period of time. But the fermentation of the dough cannot be at the breaking point because the weakened condition of the gluten structure due to the protease enzymes and fermentation byproducts will not support a good oven spring. Perhaps what you experienced was a dough that was on the short side of the fermentation window, along with a high oven bake temperature and a shortened bake time.

You also stated the following in respect of the Richie Zapata video:

A few things stuck out to me. The dough is incredibly light and soft looking. Looks very similar to Neapolitan dough. Am I right or wrong about this? I sometimes think itís more like NY dough and sometimes I think itís higher hydration. Also, he states itís all mozzarella. I didnít realize that the first time. Pizzashark said the dough should be wet enough that it should start to stick to the board after a minute I believe. Could they be using 65-70% hydration and maybe all the caked on flour they use on the dough is just to prevent sticking? He also claims the oven get a up to the 800į range but Pizzashark claims only 600į.

I touched upon some of the above points above, but I had to laugh when Louis decribed their pizzas, at least the basic one with only cheese, as being a Neapolitan thin-crust pizza. I believe elsewhere there was reference to a Neapolitan-style pizza. If Richie's 1888 oven can reach 880 degrees F as he mentions in the video, arguably he could achieve a Neapolitan type of bake if he used the right ingredients, including 00 flour (or a domestic equivalent), but it is not clear whether he uses that temperature to make regular pizzas. Otherwise, there is nothing that PR does that I would describe as Neapolitan in nature. I would characterize the PR style as being closer to a NY style, or maybe an "artisan" style of pizza even though I am not a big fan of that term and think it has become an overused marketing gimmick to get people to think that their pizza is above average and unique. But, in your case, you may want to test a higher hydration value that is consistent with the use of a high gluten flour, and do not use any oils in the dough just because Anthony has said that they do not use oil in their dough. Leaving the oil out of the dough places a greater burden on the hydration to achieve the desired oven spring, along with a high oven temperature bake.

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 20, 2018, 07:31:58 PM
Norma,

As I indicated I would do, I read the three legal documents that you brought to our attention. Of the three documents, I thought that the last one you cited, at https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/926295/000102986998000957/0001029869-98-000957.txt, was the most interesting and informative. For example, with respect to the commissary as it existed at the time (around 1998), in Saugus, the parent of Pizzeria Regina, Boston Restaurant Associates, Inc (BRAI), had this to say:

The Company maintains a commissary where food products such as pizza
dough are produced for the Company's restaurants. These products require a high
degree of consistency that would be more difficult to maintain at the individual
restaurant locations. The Company believes that close, centralized monitoring of
the dough preparation ensures a more consistent premium product. All other food
preparation is performed on site at the restaurant level.

         The Company negotiates directly with wholesale suppliers of high volume
food ingredients such as cheese, tomato sauce, and flour to ensure consistent
quality and freshness of products across its restaurants and to obtain
competitive pricing. These ingredients are then purchased by the Company's
distributor at the negotiated price and redistributed to the Company's
restaurants. All other food ingredients and beverage products are purchased
directly by the general manager of each restaurant in accordance with corporate
guidelines. The Company believes that all essential food and beverage products
are available from many qualified wholesale suppliers.


As I understand from what I read, Pizzeria Regina, through BRAI, intended to focus mainly on malls in large metropolitan areas with slice oriented food court kiosks with common area seating, as exists at most food courts in malls. It was with that objective in mind that they opened food court kiosks in Florida, Virginia and New Jersey (now closed, as previously mentioned). They were also contemplating the possibility of licensing their business abroad. As it turned out, malls started having real problems, some of which continue to this day as many consumers prefer to purchase items online rather than at malls. I believed that the bankruptcy filing pretty much reflected and acknowledged the failure of PR to gain traction with kiosks at malls in the past few years. Unfortunately, most of the current PR locations are at malls, but hopefully are in A rated malls and doing well. That leaves only one or two locations (excluding Polcari's) with full-wait service and sales of whole pizzas.

At one point, BRAI was a publicly traded company with its stock traded on Nasdaq. The stock traded in the roughly $1-2 range. BRAI was subsequently taken over by, and is now controlled by, a private equity firm Dolphin Asset Management.

It is not clear what PR and BRAI/Dolphin have in mind at this time in terms of expansion, especially if retail malls in general continue to suffer. However, from what I have read, many malls are repurposing failed retail businesses to emphasize food as an attraction, as well as other businesses, like gyms and pick-up locations for goods ordered online. But all of this is up in the air so I tend to doubt that PR and BRAI will move in that direction at this time. It would be nice to see PR's financials, but that is no longer public information because of the takeover by Dolphin.

Of course, little of this has to do directly with pizza making. But sometimes, the financial condition drives what a company does with the way it runs its business. And it also can affect how a company markets and promotes its business. And often it is cost control that private equity firms spend a lot of time on.

In my opinion, it seems clear that its North End location and its popularity among the locals and tourists was the reason why PR was named the top pizzeria in the country by TripAdvisor, not its mall locations.

Peter


Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 20, 2018, 08:13:47 PM
Norma,

At one point, PR had locations outside of Massachusetts, including the location you mentioned in Florida. However, that location appears to have closed:

https://www.yelp.com/biz/pizzeria-regina-oviedo-2

Likewise the location in Paramus, NJ:

https://www.yelp.com/biz/pizzeria-regina-of-n-j-paramus

Likewise the location in Richmond, Va:

https://www.yelp.com/biz/pizzeria-regina-richmond

Likewise the NH locations:

https://www.yelp.com/biz/regina-pizzeria-manchester, and

https://www.yelp.com/biz/regina-pizzeria-nashua

The logic and logistics of locations in Florida, Virginia and New Jersey escapes me. I believe they were kiosks that sold slices in malls, with common seating in food courts. New Hampshire is more understandable because of its proximity to the Boston area. But even when chains have remote locations from their commissaries, the dough is made in store at those remote locations. That is true of Papa Gino's when I last looked into their operations. The big chains like Papa John's locate commissaries within a certain distance of their stores to be sure that twice a week deliveries can be made.

If you go to the main PR page, and click on the PR and Polcari's locations, there appear to be a total of 16 locations. I think the bankruptcy filing wiped out a few of the PR stores. I believe I found the document you cited as part of my past searches but I also intend to look at it in greater detail sometime over the weekend even though the document dates back to 1998. That is part of my ongoing education :-D.

Peter

Peter,

I saw after reading more, and from your post about those other locations. Yes, the logic of those other locations so far away escapes me too.  If PR can't get consistent results with the places they do have now, why even locate in malls so far away.  Saw a post on Instagram today from someone that visited the original one.  The person said while the pizza was good, he sure didn't think it lived up to be in the top 10.  He said the cheese pizza was goopy. 

Glad you think those documents are part of your continuing education.  :) They are too complex for me.   :-D

Also found in another document this part and more.

         In December 1998, BRAII entered into a twenty-year joint venture

development agreement with Italian Ventures, LLC, a Kentucky corporation

("Italian Ventures"), for the purpose of developing and introducing a new

type of full service bistro-type restaurant in the Continental United

States. The joint venture entity, Regina Ventures, LLC ("Regina Ventures"),

currently has one franchise territory and one Company restaurant site in

Medina, Ohio under agreement. The Company has a 51% interest in Regina

Ventures and Italian Ventures holds the remaining 49% interest. Richard

Reeves and Terrance Smith, both of whom are Company directors, each have a

30% ownership interest in Italian Ventures. Under certain circumstances,

Italian Ventures may put its 49% equity interest together with certain of its

and its affiliates assets to the Company, and under certain circumstances the

Company has a call on Italian Ventures' equity interest and the related

assets. In both cases, the purchase price is based upon the earnings and net

assets of Regina Ventures, and is payable in cash, Company stock or a

combination of both at the discretion of the Company. As a result of certain

issues which have arisen over the direction of the joint venture, the Company

is currently in negotiations with Italian Ventures over the possible

restructuring of the joint venture relationship.


 
Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 20, 2018, 08:15:09 PM
Norma,

As I indicated I would do, I read the three legal documents that you brought to our attention. Of the three documents, I thought that the last one you cited, at https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/926295/000102986998000957/0001029869-98-000957.txt, was the most interesting and informative. For example, with respect to the commissary as it existed at the time (around 1998), in Saugus, the parent of Pizzeria Regina, Boston Restaurant Associates, Inc (BRAI), had this to say:

The Company maintains a commissary where food products such as pizza
dough are produced for the Company's restaurants. These products require a high
degree of consistency that would be more difficult to maintain at the individual
restaurant locations. The Company believes that close, centralized monitoring of
the dough preparation ensures a more consistent premium product. All other food
preparation is performed on site at the restaurant level.

         The Company negotiates directly with wholesale suppliers of high volume
food ingredients such as cheese, tomato sauce, and flour to ensure consistent
quality and freshness of products across its restaurants and to obtain
competitive pricing. These ingredients are then purchased by the Company's
distributor at the negotiated price and redistributed to the Company's
restaurants. All other food ingredients and beverage products are purchased
directly by the general manager of each restaurant in accordance with corporate
guidelines. The Company believes that all essential food and beverage products
are available from many qualified wholesale suppliers.


As I understand from what I read, Pizzeria Regina, through BRAI, intended to focus mainly on malls in large metropolitan areas with slice oriented food court kiosks with common area seating, as exists at most food courts in malls. It was with that objective in mind that they opened food court kiosks in Florida, Virginia and New Jersey (now closed, as previously mentioned). They were also contemplating the possibility of licensing their business abroad. As it turned out, malls started having real problems, some of which continue to this day as many consumers prefer to purchase items online rather than at malls. I believed that the bankruptcy filing pretty much reflected and acknowledged the failure of PR to gain traction with kiosks at malls in the past few years. Unfortunately, most of the current PR locations are at malls, but hopefully are in A rated malls and doing well. That leaves only one or two locations (excluding Polcari's) with full-wait service and sales of whole pizzas.

At one point, BRAI was a publicly traded company with its stock traded on Nasdaq. The stock traded in the roughly $1-2 range. BRAI was subsequently taken over by, and is now controlled by, a private equity firm Dolphin Asset Management.

It is not clear what PR and BRAI/Dolphin have in mind at this time in terms of expansion, especially if retail malls in general continue to suffer. However, from what I have read, many malls are repurposing failed retail businesses to emphasize food as an attraction, as well as other businesses, like gyms and pick-up locations for goods ordered online. But all of this is up in the air so I tend to doubt that PR and BRAI will move in that direction at this time. It would be nice to see PR's financials, but that is no longer public information because of the takeover by Dolphin.

Of course, little of this has to do directly with pizza making. But sometimes, the financial condition drives what a company does with the way it runs its business. And it also can affect how a company markets and promotes its business. And often it is cost control that private equity firms spend a lot of time on.

In my opinion, it seems clear that its North End location and its popularity among the locals and tourists was the reason why PR was named the top pizzeria in the country by TripAdvisor, not its mall locations.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for reading those 3 documents and explaining things!

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 20, 2018, 09:44:03 PM
I just want to take a second to thank you all for all the work you do here on the forum and on this thread. When I started researching in the spring time, I was a bit nervous that there wasnít enough info or discussion online about PR. There were Pizzasharkís threads however, but he hasnít been on in a while, so I had many questions to ask. I know Iím always asking questions and just wanted to thank you all. Reading all the legal documents Peter is incredible and I need to read them in full.

Peter,
Thank you for the link about the grayish dough and black dots. I believe that was the article about PR I was trying to find. I noticed Braintree never has black dots in their uncooked or cooked dough. I love looking at cheese in supermarkets. Awesome work youíve done researching them. I would have never thought of Kraft as having the least amount of anti-caking agents. I find BJís Wholesale Club had some awesome cheese along with Stop & Shop sometimes. I find myself buying from the local Italian market for Empire, but the Galvani at BJís is good. Interestingly the Galbani WMM at BJís is not low moisture like my other Galbani is. Definitely importing for me to use LM since I use a ton of water in the sauce. I still need to check out Market Basket for the Great Lakes cheese. I may try the Part Skim and add butter like I usually do. Youíre right about all the options exhausted from PR themself. Iíll have to do some calling and Iím still going by Braintree asking things. Iím just very happy weíre all talking about PR :)

Iím going to make some high hydration doughs without oil and age them for 3-7 days. Youíre definitely right about the conditions leading to the soft crumb. Itís the type of crust that you can eat on its own.

Do you think the bromate would bake off for me around 350į-600į? Iím worried about when my last bake was around 400į. I noticed at PR sometimes the caked on bench flour is so white/raw looking on top. Iím assuming this is from either short bake times, more bench flour used than normal on the dough, or maybe the location of the pie in the oven. You can see it all the time on the small pies. They are basically white with flour but sometimes burnt spots on the cheese.

Braintree South Shore Plaza is one of the very busy malls, so itís good they get a lot of business there. I can see them not doing so well in other malls. I almost checked out the Kingston location. Interesting how Medford uses a deck oven like I believe Alston does. Braintreeís Electric oven is very big and unique.

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 21, 2018, 08:04:11 AM
On page 9 of this Pizzeria Regina even had a location in the Palms, Las Vegas.  Probably isn't there anymore, but in the book it says that Palms owner George Maloof lured the franchise west after living on Pizzeria Regina pies during his prep school days at Phillips Adover.

https://books.google.com/books?id=fRlF5CLdrcYC&pg=PA144&lpg=PA144&dq=Pizzeria+Regina+Palms+Las+Vegas&source=bl&ots=a-qRIZdXmL&sig=8_PWuMXihlyoucssGnvy1WH4kP4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwja_r67vJbeAhWhl-AKHYlwCP8Q6AEwBXoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=Pizzeria%20Regina%20Palms%20Las%20Vegas&f=false


Boston-style
Regina's, Roxy's
Bostonians love their pizza, and Las Vegas is home to two branches of Regina's, from Boston's North End. Regina's serves the quintessential Boston-style pizza, chewy, brick-oven slices.
George Maloof, who formerly owned the Fiesta and now owns the Palms, had the vision to bring Regina's to Las Vegas in the first place. Maloof has sold the Fiesta, but the casino still has Roxy's Pizzeria, which serves Regina's pizza recipes.
It's a cavernous room with long, Formica tables, and the pizza is still terrific. The other option is to hit the food court at the Palms, where the pizza stand is called Regina's. Both options are worthwhile.
The best pizza variety in both places is the simple cheese-and-tomato pizza. Its thin, chewy crust is topped with a dappled mat of aged, whole-milk mozzarella and a delicious, mildly sweet marinara.
This pizza is crisp around the edges and pliable enough to fold when eating, so the marinara sauce won't go dribbling down your chin.
Among the specialty pies is giambotta, a deluxe pizza topped with pepperoni, sausage, mushrooms, peppers and onions. The traditional Margherita has a thicker crust topped with tomato sauce, fresh chopped basil, mozzarella and pecorino cheese.
https://lasvegassun.com/news/2002/nov/13/vegas-has-combinations-for-pizza-lovers/



http://www.lasvegan.net/lvn_issues/issue_1199/celebrityscene.html

Sure would not think that PR would send dough to Vegas.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 21, 2018, 09:01:00 AM
Reading all the legal documents Peter is incredible and I need to read them in full.
Pod4477,

I don't really see any need for you to read the documents that Norma found. Those documents are now over twenty years old and much of what was contemplated at the time, especially on the international side, never came to pass. And most of the documents are legal verbiage and quite boring to read. What I was looking for was information about their pizza and also to get a sense of what direction PR and BRAI were taking at the time.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 21, 2018, 11:10:00 AM
Do you think the bromate would bake off for me around 350į-600į? Iím worried about when my last bake was around 400į. I noticed at PR sometimes the caked on bench flour is so white/raw looking on top. Iím assuming this is from either short bake times, more bench flour used than normal on the dough, or maybe the location of the pie in the oven. You can see it all the time on the small pies. They are basically white with flour but sometimes burnt spots on the cheese.
Pod4477,

Potassium bromate is a very complicated issue on which there are sometimes widely diverging opposing points of view on the matter of safety. And I do not fancy myself an expert on this matter. But from what I have read in the literature, high bake temperatures, for example above 410 degrees F, and long bake times are conducive to lowering the amount of bromate in the finished product to safe levels. But most of the examples I saw were for bread, which entails using a longer bake time than what one would use to bake pizzas. So, out of an excess of caution, I personally would avoid short bake times at normal bake temperatures for pizza. I would also not use bromated flours as bench flours. Sometime, you may want to ask pizza makers at PR whose flour they are using on the bench, and whether it is bromated. Since PR is already receiving shipments of a presumably bromated high gluten flour at its commissary, it might be logical that they send some of it to the stores to be used as bench flour. But if PR is sensitive to the bromate issue, they may require using a safer flour on the bench. Yet it is also possible that they assume that their bake temperatures and times are OK, and consistent with what most pizza makers do when using bromated flours.

To give you an idea as to a typical range of potassium bromate used in a high gluten flour, you can see the range used for All Trumps flour at:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=50111000

From what I have read, using the right combination of bake temperature and time, the amount of bromate in the flour can be reduced to a few parts per million in the final baked product. Again, this was for bread, so for pizza the amount of bromate in pizza might be higher.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 22, 2018, 01:51:35 AM
Wow thatís crazy that it made its way to Vegas! I wonder how the dough did out there lol. Yah youíre right about reading the documents and I appreciate the fact that you read them. Thank you.

Iím going to stop using my bromated flour as bench flour. Luckily most of the bakes have been pretty high temp so that the flour on top of the dough browned a lot. Iíll have to ask them what they use for a bench flour, tomorrow. Iím going to start using Gold Medal All Purpose as my bench flour. If PR is using bromate flour for their bench flour, I wonder if itís safe when itís the raw looking white color I always see on their pies. Iím sure itís baked long enough and hot enough though. Thank you for the bromate info. I just hope using it on the last 4 pies as bench flour hasnít had any negative effects health effects. Iím quite mad at myself for doing so, but I cooked most of them in 500-700į heat for 8-10 minutes. Now my next concern is using bromated flour at all, since I eat so much pizza. I eat a lot of PR anyway, so using bromate in my dough may not matter, but Iím thinking for the $18 it may be better to just start over using either Harvest King or the Unbromated All Trumps. Finding either around here has been tough as I donít know many cash & carries. I had good results with bread flour, I just think KA wasnít using enough malted barley and maybe that is why I didnít like the taste or smell of their bread flour. I could always try using Gold Medalís bread flour. Smelling Gold Medal All Purpose and my All Trumps, they smell similar, so I hope they are using similar amounts of malted barley in all their flours.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: scott r on October 22, 2018, 09:25:29 AM
it may be better to just start over using either Harvest King or the Unbromated All Trumps. Finding either around here has been tough as I donít know many cash & carries.

Your absolutely correct, it is almost impossible to find those two flours unless your a pizzeria willing to buy an entire pallet.   I used to buy single 50lb bags of unbromated all trumps from OK bakers supply in Springfield Ma, and Harvest king at Clear Flour bakery in Brookline Ma.  That was 10 years ago, tho, so I don't know if they even stock or use those flours any more. 

After doing lots of testing my finding was that all white flours within a given protein range can produce a very similar pizza, and it was subtle changes in mixing, hydration, and proofing that made worlds of difference in my pizzas.   

Concerning your findings with the King Arthur Bread flour, I did a lot of side by side testing looking at browning levels in white flours and procured malt and enzyme specs for just about every flour I have ever been interested in.  I found that all malted or enzyme treated white flours tend to have very close to the same amount of browning when fermented to the same point. Caputo Ameriacana was the only flour I could find that had a malt (and browning) level that was somewhere in between a non malted and a typical malted flour.   

Fours do change a bit from batch to batch from the factory, and one of the biggest things you are paying for with artisan brands like Central Milling is the best consistency possible. Having said that, King Arthur and General Mills both make excellent flours that work very well the majority of the time, and if things are a little out of whack a hydration change is about all I found I needed to do to get a good product.     

If you want to get away from bromated flours I personally think you should save yourself some driving around and give King Arthur bread flour another shot since it is so easy to find in MA. Try buying it from a different grocery store than you usually do, or go to Restaurant Depot and try buying a 50lb bag of King Arthur Special (the same thing) and you might have better results. It is possible that you got a bag that wasn't stored properly, which happens from time to time at the retail level.  Grocery stores are not geared specifically to the baking trade, and I have found more inconsistencies in their 5lb bags than I do in 50lb bags.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 22, 2018, 10:32:52 AM
Pod4477,

I would like to clarify and expand upon something I said earlier in this thread about PR's kiosk mall locations. I mentioned that the mall locations are mainly slice oriented locations. That is true but in Anthony's podcast interview, starting at about 11:14 (https://www.spreaker.com/user/fooddrinktravel/food-drink-travel-episode-21), Anthony says that customers can purchase whole pizzas if they call in advance and order same. Each of the mall locations has a special curbside drive-through parking area dedicated to PR where customers can pick up the pizzas without having to get out of their vehicles. PR has been doing this for about 15 years.

I still believe, however, the acclaim that PR received recently in being named the best pizzeria in the country comes from the one or two sit-down restaurants that PR has in Boston, and most likely the one in the North End, on Thacher I believe, which is highly experiential in nature (the ambience, the wide assortment of adult beverages, people enjoying themselves, and the good pizza) and where people are willing to wait in long lines to have that experience. You don't get that in mall food courts.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 22, 2018, 11:42:08 AM
Your absolutely correct, it is almost impossible to find those two flours unless your a pizzeria willing to buy an entire pallet.   I used to buy single 50lb bags of unbromated all trumps from OK bakers supply in Springfield Ma, and Harvest king at Clear Flour bakery in Brookline Ma.  That was 10 years ago, tho, so I don't know if they even stock or use those flours any more. 

After doing lots of testing my finding was that all white flours within a given protein range can produce a very similar pizza, and it was subtle changes in mixing, hydration, and proofing that made worlds of difference in my pizzas.   

Concerning your findings with the King Arthur Bread flour, I did a lot of side by side testing looking at browning levels in white flours and procured malt and enzyme specs for just about every flour I have ever been interested in.  I found that all malted or enzyme treated white flours tend to have very close to the same amount of browning when fermented to the same point. Caputo Ameriacana was the only flour I could find that had a malt (and browning) level that was somewhere in between a non malted and a typical malted flour.   

Fours do change a bit from batch to batch from the factory, and one of the biggest things you are paying for with artisan brands like Central Milling is the best consistency possible. Having said that, King Arthur and General Mills both make excellent flours that work very well the majority of the time, and if things are a little out of whack a hydration change is about all I found I needed to do to get a good product.     

If you want to get away from bromated flours I personally think you should save yourself some driving around and give King Arthur bread flour another shot since it is so easy to find in MA. Try buying it from a different grocery store than you usually do, or go to Restaurant Depot and try buying a 50lb bag of King Arthur Special (the same thing) and you might have better results. It is possible that you got a bag that wasn't stored properly, which happens from time to time at the retail level.  Grocery stores are not geared specifically to the baking trade, and I have found more inconsistencies in their 5lb bags than I do in 50lb bags.

Thank you.  Very good information indeed; I appreciate it. I may try KA again and maybe their 50#bag. Thank you for letting me know where you got the other 50lb bags from. I looked up OK Baker Supply and their not listed as tenents of 1350 Main Street, so Iím curious if they are still around. I did find a listing for the company though, so they may still be in business. Were there any requirements from buying from them? With regards to the Brookline bakery, Iím assuming you asked them if you could buy a flour from them? Big Y uses unbromated all Trumps, but I doubt theyíd sell me any like a bakery would. I did see Market Basket is the only one to carry Gold Medal Bread flour. Could be worth a shot to try it.

Peter,
Thank you for the correction. Thatís a good point and my Braintree PR has the curbside pickup too, but Iíve never used it. Itís a pretty cool service but Iíve always just walked in. The North End location definitely seems like it has the best pies, but Iíve been liking the browned crust of Braintree a lot lately.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: scott r on October 22, 2018, 11:50:40 AM
Thats great that big Y has unbromated all trumps.   I wouldn't be surprised if they would sell you a bag, they will probably jack up the price a bit from a wholesaler.

Ok bakers supply was happy to sell me one bag and it was super cheap.     

Yes clear flour used Harvest King for most of their white breads and they were happy to sell me a single 50lb bag.   
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 22, 2018, 12:46:14 PM
Thats great that big Y has unbromated all trumps.   I wouldn't be surprised if they would sell you a bag, they will probably jack up the price a bit from a wholesaler.

Ok bakers supply was happy to sell me one bag and it was super cheap.     

Yes clear flour used Harvest King for most of their white breads and they were happy to sell me a single 50lb bag.

Thank you! Ya I should ask Big Y for the heck of it. I bet they would sell me one. I wouldnít mind paying more if I had to. Thank you for the info on the other bakery/bakery supply places. I could always check with them too. O K Baker Supply would be tougher since I cant find a number for them or much info, but Brookline is closer too. I wonder what flour is used in our white bread around here. Mainly the J.J Nissen or bread supplied by bakeries for Stop & Shop. Of course Iím sure more bromate cooks out compared to pizza, as Peter said.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 22, 2018, 01:44:11 PM
Peter,
Thank you for the correction. Thatís a good point and my Braintree PR has the curbside pickup too, but Iíve never used it. Itís a pretty cool service but Iíve always just walked in. The North End location definitely seems like it has the best pies, but Iíve been liking the browned crust of Braintree a lot lately.
Pod4477,

That is good to know. However, I did not see the Braintree location listed at the PR website (http://www.pizzeriaregina.com/index.html). That aside, I would like to believe that long lines outside of a pizzeria is a sign of the quality of the pizzas and the experience inside. The photos below, in sequence, are for some of the highly notable and revered pizzerias that seem to generate long lines:

Pizzeria Regina North End/Thacher, Regina Pizzeria Braintree (LOL), Pizzeria Bianco, Pizzeria Beddia, Lucali's, and Tony's Pizza Napoletana

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 22, 2018, 03:19:53 PM
I love seeing those pics Peter. Very cool to see the crowds there. I went to Market Basket and purchased the GM Bread Flour. I noticed they arenít adding barley flour anymore so I called an asked. The rep said they stopped adding it. So would I have to add sugar when doing 7 day cold ferments using just flour?
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 22, 2018, 04:05:14 PM
I love seeing those pics Peter. Very cool to see the crowds there. I went to Market Basket and purchased the GM Bread Flour. I noticed they arenít adding barley flour anymore so I called an asked. The rep said they stopped adding it. So would I have to add sugar when doing 7 day cold ferments using just flour?
Pod4477,

It's possible that you were not given the full story. The ingredients list you showed in the photo mentions Enzymes. That might mean barley malt, which is a cereal source of diastatic malt with amylase enzyme functionality, or it might be a fungal or bacterial amylase. However, the ingredients list for the GM bread flour as shown in the GM link below recites the ingredients as:

Ingredients: Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin (A B Vitamin), Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Folic Acid (A B Vitamin) (http://www.goldmedalflour.com/OurFlourStory/OurFlour/BreadFlour)

Some companies, like Grain Craft (formerly Pendleton Mills), have gone to using fungal amylase instead of malted barley flour. And they use the term Enzyme in the ingredients list. You can see the term on a typical flour bag here:

Reply 56 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34845.msg348364#msg348364.

I have seen no signs that GM has gone to fungal or bacterial amylase, so I can't explain why you were told that there is no malted barley flour in the GM bread flour you purchased. You might call back and ask them what "Enzymes" are used in the flour if it is not malted barley flour. I also noticed that the label mentions Enzymes in the plural, so there may be more than just one enzyme. Maybe xylanase or protease?

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 22, 2018, 09:19:03 PM
Talked to Rich Marston at RM Heagy's today. https://www.linkedin.com/in/rich-marston-4418a1b/?lipi=urn%3Ali%3Apage%3Ad_flagship3_profile_view_base%3B%2BsEkLlFVSmO%2F8NKkNU7kDg%3D%3D#  Wanted to see if he knew anything about the Empire mozzarella PR's is using.  Rich and I talked for awhile about the Empire mozzarella and mozzarella's in general.  Rich has eaten pizzas at PR's.  I asked Rich if there was anywhere near me where I could purchase the Empire mozzarella to test.  Rich told me that Ettline's in York, Pa. did sell the Empire cheese, but since has been purchased by Gordon Food Service, so he doesn't know if they sell it anymore.  When I got home check Ettline's and now they are closed.  http://www.cpbj.com/article/20180129/CPBJ01/180129845/new-owner-shuttering-former-ettline-facility-in-york  Missed it by a matter of about 10 months.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 22, 2018, 09:23:16 PM
Pod4477,

It's possible that you were not given the full story. The ingredients list you showed in the photo mentions Enzymes. That might mean barley malt, which is a cereal source of diastatic malt with amylase enzyme functionality, or it might be a fungal or bacterial amylase. However, the ingredients list for the GM bread flour as shown in the GM link below recites the ingredients as:

Ingredients: Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin (A B Vitamin), Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Folic Acid (A B Vitamin) (http://www.goldmedalflour.com/OurFlourStory/OurFlour/BreadFlour)

Some companies, like Grain Craft (formerly Pendleton Mills), have gone to using fungal amylase instead of malted barley flour. And they use the term Enzyme in the ingredients list. You can see the term on a typical flour bag here:

Reply 56 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34845.msg348364#msg348364.

I have seen no signs that GM has gone to fungal or bacterial amylase, so I can't explain why you were told that there is no malted barley flour in the GM bread flour you purchased. You might call back and ask them what "Enzymes" are used in the flour if it is not malted barley flour. I also noticed that the label mentions Enzymes in the plural, so there may be more than just one enzyme. Maybe xylanase or protease?

Peter

I didnít even notice this and I should have. Thank you Peter! I tried calling them but they were closed. Iíll call again tomorrow and ask what the enzymes are. So I had some more PR tonight and it was lightly cooked so I was able to see how the bake determines the crust taste. The more undercooked the crust, the less wheaty flavor. The lightest crust had almost no wheat taste, so it seems like the Maillard reaction is definitely the cause of the wheaty taste. Do you think this is from the malted barley? Iím doing a test tonight with the new bread flour to see. The inside crumb is definitely tastier when cooked less and it tastes almost buttery and  really perfectly fermented dough. It tastes very different than my emergency dough. The worker there also made it seem like they are using all purpose flour on the bench.

The dough seems like a moderate hydration but it does have a very soft crumb. The worker said it wasnít too wet and touching it doesnít get dough on your hands. Of course itís been fermenting for 3-7 days so that affects it.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 22, 2018, 09:27:54 PM
Talked to Rich Marston at RM Heagy's today. https://www.linkedin.com/in/rich-marston-4418a1b/?lipi=urn%3Ali%3Apage%3Ad_flagship3_profile_view_base%3B%2BsEkLlFVSmO%2F8NKkNU7kDg%3D%3D#  Wanted to see if he knew anything about the Empire mozzarella PR's is using.  Rich and I talked for awhile about the Empire mozzarella and mozzarella's in general.  Rich has eaten pizzas at PR's.  I asked Rich if there was anywhere near me where I could purchase the Empire mozzarella to test.  Rich told me that Ettline's in York, Pa. did sell the Empire cheese, but since has been purchased by Gordon Food Service, so he doesn't know if they sell it anymore.  When I got home check Ettline's and now they are closed.  http://www.cpbj.com/article/20180129/CPBJ01/180129845/new-owner-shuttering-former-ettline-facility-in-york  Missed it by a matter of about 10 months.  :-D

Norma

I always find that I discover a place after theyíve closed. Thank you for letting me know! Good idea asking him. Did he say anything about how buttery it is? I had it again tonight and it doesnít taste normal. I only know one place around me that sells it and they are an Italian market.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 23, 2018, 06:43:58 AM
I always find that I discover a place after theyíve closed. Thank you for letting me know! Good idea asking him. Did he say anything about how buttery it is? I had it again tonight and it doesnít taste normal. I only know one place around me that sells it and they are an Italian market.

Pod4477,

I forgot to ask Rich if the Empire cheese was buttery or not, when he ate PR's pizzas.  I also wanted to ask him if aged mozzarella gets more buttery in taste or not.  Can always call him anytime, but will have to think about what to ask him.  Rich told me that part-skim mozzarella will brown faster on a pizza and most east coast pizzeria operators use whole milk mozzarella because they want their pies to have the white melt mozzarella.  Not sure if that is true or not.    :-\  Rich gave me percentages of moisture in percentages of parameters for part-skim and whole milk mozzarella's and said that some mozzarella's can be a pasteurized process cheese product.  Really not understanding that.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 23, 2018, 09:56:41 AM
I didnít even notice this and I should have. Thank you Peter! I tried calling them but they were closed. Iíll call again tomorrow and ask what the enzymes are. So I had some more PR tonight and it was lightly cooked so I was able to see how the bake determines the crust taste. The more undercooked the crust, the less wheaty flavor. The lightest crust had almost no wheat taste, so it seems like the Maillard reaction is definitely the cause of the wheaty taste. Do you think this is from the malted barley? Iím doing a test tonight with the new bread flour to see. The inside crumb is definitely tastier when cooked less and it tastes almost buttery and  really perfectly fermented dough. It tastes very different than my emergency dough. The worker there also made it seem like they are using all purpose flour on the bench.

The dough seems like a moderate hydration but it does have a very soft crumb. The worker said it wasnít too wet and touching it doesnít get dough on your hands. Of course itís been fermenting for 3-7 days so that affects it.
Pod4477,

The diastatic barley malt in flour will contribute to some crust coloration but there typically is only 0.1-0.2% barley malt added to most domestic white flours, so you have to be careful not to add more just to get more crust coloration since that can lead to a slack and sticky dough that is hard to handle. Some of our members do add more diastatic barley malt to their doughs to get more crust coloration and other benefits but they typically use low degrees Lintner values and in modest amounts.

I would say that the main sources of crust coloration are due to the Maillard reaction and also the denaturing of the protein. These effects are usually introduced toward the end of the bake. To put matters into perspective, you might want to take a look at what happens when a dough is baked, as described at page 16 in this old Pendleton Mills document that was archived in the Wayback Machine:

https://web.archive.org/web/20141109232607/http://www.pfmills.com/filebin/pdf/technical_informational_booklet_v1-opt.pdf

The last stage as given in the above document is where heat comes into play as the heat tries to drive off the moisture in the dough. How effective this will be for a pizza crust can depend on the thickness of the skin and the shape and size of the rim, and also whatever else is on the skin. The duration of the bake will also dictate what crust coloration will be achieved as the moisture diminishes as the crust continues to bake and it increasingly dries up and starts to brown. With respect to the Maillard reaction, simple sugars and amino acids are required for that reaction, which can typically take place over a range of temperatures but from what I have read, it generally takes place above about 285 degrees F. The denaturing of the protein that also takes place involves changing the structure of the proteins. This can occur over a range of temperatures. Heat and acids, both of which are typically found in a dough, are the factors that denature the protein. You can get a pretty good idea of the many things that contribute to crust coloration during the bake in this document, at:

https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/cooking-for-geeks/9781449389543/ch04.html

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 23, 2018, 01:15:33 PM
Pod4477,

The diastatic barley malt in flour will contribute to some crust coloration but there typically is only 0.1-0.2% barley malt added to most domestic white flours, so you have to be careful not to add more just to get more crust coloration since that can lead to a slack and sticky dough that is hard to handle. Some of our members do add more diastatic barley malt to their doughs to get more crust coloration and other benefits but they typically use low degrees Lintner values and in modest amounts.

I would say that the main sources of crust coloration are due to the Maillard reaction and also the denaturing of the protein. These effects are usually introduced toward the end of the bake. To put matters into perspective, you might want to take a look at what happens when a dough is baked, as described at page 16 in this old Pendleton Mills document that was archived in the Wayback Machine:

https://web.archive.org/web/20141109232607/http://www.pfmills.com/filebin/pdf/technical_informational_booklet_v1-opt.pdf

The last stage as given in the above document is where heat comes into play as the heat tries to drive off the moisture in the dough. How effective this will be for a pizza crust can depend on the thickness of the skin and the shape and size of the rim, and also whatever else is on the skin. The duration of the bake will also dictate what crust coloration will be achieved as the moisture diminishes as the crust continues to bake and it increasingly dries up and starts to brown. With respect to the Maillard reaction, simple sugars and amino acids are required for that reaction, which can typically take place over a range of temperatures but from what I have read, it generally takes place above about 285 degrees F. The denaturing of the protein that also takes place involves changing the structure of the proteins. This can occur over a range of temperatures. Heat and acids, both of which are typically found in a dough, are the factors that denature the protein. You can get a pretty good idea of the many things that contribute to crust coloration during the bake in this document, at:

https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/cooking-for-geeks/9781449389543/ch04.html

Peter

Thanks Peter! I tried a bake with just the GM bread flour and I experinced nice browning towards the end of the bake like you said. Thank you for that document, as Iím trying to learn as much as I can about it.

I called PR and someone called me back regarding flour and oil. He said they use high strength bleached and bromated flour. He said they do use oil and said it is a blend of cottonseed, sunflower and olive oil.My family member emailed PR too and emails go right to him.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: vtsteve on October 23, 2018, 01:25:20 PM
Thanks Peter! I tried a bake with just the GM bread flour and I experinced nice browning towards the end of the bake like you said. Thank you for that document, as Iím trying to learn as much as I can about it.

I called PR and someone called me back regarding flour and oil. He said they use high strength bleached and bromated flour.

High strength (merely descriptive) or "Full Strength" (a very-popular-for-pizza GM flour)? Do you live in a state where one party can legally record a call without the other party's knowledge?

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10709.0
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 23, 2018, 01:37:17 PM
High strength (merely descriptive) or "Full Strength" (a very-popular-for-pizza GM flour)? Do you live in a state where one party can legally record a call without the other party's knowledge?

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10709.0

I should have written it down right away. I believe he said high-strength, as it sounded like the ADM specs. He didnít mention a brand. Sorry I should have written it down as I was trying to ask about oil before I forgot. I donít believe MA can record without consent. I do know that it was cottonseed, sunflower, and olive oil. He sent another reply to the email we sent the company earlier today asking about the oil. I remember this reply from PeanutAllergy.com: ďAfter recieving an e-mail from a member asking about the use of peanut oil in our dough, I inquired about the contents of the oil. According to Catania-Spagna Corporation, the oil used in the dough at Pizzeria Regina contains a blend of Cottonseed, Soybean and Pure Olive Oil.Ē

As RedSauce points out itís most likely similar to the Spagnola oil he posted pictures of.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 23, 2018, 03:22:45 PM
Rich gave me percentages of moisture in percentages of parameters for part-skim and whole milk mozzarella's and said that some mozzarella's can be a pasteurized process cheese product.  Really not understanding that.

Norma
Norma,

Mozzarella cheeses are subject to a "standard of identity" under FDA rules and regulations that specify the moisture and fat contents of mozzarella cheese. You can see the pertinent statute at https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?CFRPart=133. You will see the applicable section for mozzarella cheese down the list of cheeses. And there is a formula for calculating the fat content of mozzarella cheese at Section 133.5 (d) at https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=133.5. And if you go to the SelfNutritionData website at https://nutritiondata.self.com/, and look under the different mozzarella cheeses, you can see the moisture contents and use that information to calculate the related fat contents. This is something you might want to do sometime when it is late at night and you are having a difficult time falling asleep ;D.

An interesting article on this subject can be seen at https://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/regulatory/say-mozzarella.

And another interesting article that demonstrates the complexity of cheese making is this one: https://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/ingredients/fine-tuning-cheese-performance

I should also mention that when I looked at the different mozzarella cheese products at my local supermarkets recently, and again today when I was at one of those markets, I observed that all of the mozzarella cheeses are made using pasteurated milk. As I see it, an unpasteurated milk is essentially raw milk. And as noted in the article at https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2012/09/is-raw-milk-safe-e-coli/, unpasteurated milk is both a good news and a bad news story. But as between the two choices, I am sure that the bad outweighs the good for major mozzarella cheese producers and that means that they will opt for the pasteurized milk side almost all of the time. If you are interested, the FDA tells us what pasteurization of dairy products entails at https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=131.3.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 23, 2018, 03:39:44 PM
Pod4477,

That is good news about the flour and the oil blend that PR uses, even if there are still a few loose ends. As you know, Anthony said in one of the videos that there is no oil used in their dough, and that the oil comes from the cheeses. I personally don't think that Anthony is being duplicitous. As the COO of PR, he perhaps has spent most of his time over the years on how the various PR locations are run and managed--which I sense has been a major challenge--and has not spend much time at the commissary watching exactly how the dough is made. And it is possible that at one time PR did discontinue use of oils in the dough and that is what he remembers.

Since you apparently got the latest on the oils, maybe you can inquire as to what the "special natural yeast" is that is prominently highlighted at the PR website.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 24, 2018, 04:54:14 AM
Norma,

Mozzarella cheeses are subject to a "standard of identity" under FDA rules and regulations that specify the moisture and fat contents of mozzarella cheese. You can see the pertinent statute at https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?CFRPart=133. You will see the applicable section for mozzarella cheese down the list of cheeses. And there is a formula for calculating the fat content of mozzarella cheese at Section 133.5 (d) at https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=133.5. And if you go to the SelfNutritionData website at https://nutritiondata.self.com/, and look under the different mozzarella cheeses, you can see the moisture contents and use that information to calculate the related fat contents. This is something you might want to do sometime when it is late at night and you are having a difficult time falling asleep ;D.

An interesting article on this subject can be seen at https://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/regulatory/say-mozzarella.

And another interesting article that demonstrates the complexity of cheese making is this one: https://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/ingredients/fine-tuning-cheese-performance

I should also mention that when I looked at the different mozzarella cheese products at my local supermarkets recently, and again today when I was at one of those markets, I observed that all of the mozzarella cheeses are made using pasteurated milk. As I see it, an unpasteurated milk is essentially raw milk. And as noted in the article at https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2012/09/is-raw-milk-safe-e-coli/, unpasteurated milk is both a good news and a bad news story. But as between the two choices, I am sure that the bad outweighs the good for major mozzarella cheese producers and that means that they will opt for the pasteurized milk side almost all of the time. If you are interested, the FDA tells us what pasteurization of dairy products entails at https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=131.3.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining about ďstandard of identityĒ for mozzarella cheeses and the link.  The formula for calculating the fat content of mozzarella cheese is interesting.  Moisture contents and trying to calculate the related fat contents would be too hard for me.  Never would try that stuff if I had a difficult time falling asleep.  :P Much rather just taste different mozzarella's and see how they taste unbaked and baked on a pizza.  Much easier.  ;D

Yes, understand about pasteurized milk.  Didn't think about that at the time I was talking to Rich. 

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 24, 2018, 02:20:00 PM
I always wondered how they calculated fat in Mozzerella. Good points Peter, Anthony seems like a good guy and there are so many possibilities as far as oil goes. I should have asked about the yeast, as I didnít even think of it somehow. I could always shoot him another email.  I believe they are using La Spagnola oil judging by the peanutallergy.com post, so I picked up the one RedSauce showed, at Market Basket, along with Shredded LMWMM from Great Lakes. I also picked up some corn oil for a Deep Dish pizza tonight. I made about 6 doughs for the week and I did some using the GM bread flour with the blended oil. Iíll be making them in about 3-7 days.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pizza Shark on October 24, 2018, 08:22:11 PM
Hey Pod, sorry for the delay in responding as I haven't visited the forum for a while.  I sent you a PM but will post my response here as well. 

With regard to your question... I am using Gold Medal Full Strength commercial flour now and when I can't get that I use King Arthur Bread Flour.  My personal dough recipe these days consists of flour, water, yeast, salt, sugar and evoo.  Everyone seems to have their own favorite %'s to use on the dough calculator. I personally just eyeball it these days as I've made so much dough over the years.  I add a bit of sugar because I read that some sugar added to a long cold ferment feeds the yeast for a longer amount of time on a longer cold ferment.  One of the things that may help with the taste you are looking for is to try a longer 5-6 day cold ferment.  I remember the dough balls would come in on trays probably after being cold fermented a few days at the commissary and then they would sit the walk-ins for a few more days until they were all used until the next batch was delivered.  It was not uncommon to see the black spots form on the dough balls that was the yeast dying so maybe those dough balls were commonly pushing 6-7 or even more days before they were used.  The longer the cold ferment goes on, the more flavor the dough develops... I mean sourdough comes from a starter is basically a REALLY long ferment to the point it starts to taste sour.   I personally don't use cottonseed oil as purchased in bulk for commercial use it is one of the cheapest oils which is probably why they used it.

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pizza Shark on October 24, 2018, 09:21:11 PM
Hey Pod... On another note... It's been 20+ years since worked for Pizzeria R and I have to say looking at the photos you posted of the pies you recently purchased "WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON UP THERE!" (I live in VA now).  Good Lord those pies look terrible.  One has a massive bubble that would have been popped during the bake back in the day (bubbles only allowed on the crust) and that last shot of a crust loaded with all that chalky flour after the bake... Yuck!  The distribution of sauce and cheese is wrong with center pooling very evident (someone wasn't trained to sauce and cheese heavier at the the perimeter and gradually lighter to the middle where there should be next to nothing when placed into the oven as it ALL migrates to the middle during the bake).  Who wants a "swimming pool" pizza with a soupy mess in the middle one could dive into from the crust?  Those look like thrown together messes compared what we turned out 20 years ago. 

Believe me... After years of making pizza and being cocky back in the day (which is very evident in my initial posts on this thread because I worked there and thought I knew it all)... Listening to members on this forum and the advice they shared I now make a far better pie today at home than Pizzeria R ever made.  I even asked asked Pete to delete this thread because there are far better threads to follow but he thought it still had a place here perhaps to serve as a starting point for those interested in NYS pizza.   

Everyone has their own idea of what the PERFECT pie should be and taste like.  For most it comes down to what they ate and loved where they grew up as that taste is burned into their brain and is usually surrounded with great memories of the times they ate those pies.  Looking at what you purchased at Pizzeria R, they are relying on that burned in memory and the Best of Boston awards that continued to draw customers.  Pies that looked like what you posted may have made their way out to customers during a rush by a new employee but that certainly wouldn't be the norm or allowed to continue as more training would be mandated back in the day.  There is a rustic and authentic pie and then there is a mess that is served under the guise that it is rustic and authentic.  That looks to be what they are serving these days.   
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pizza Shark on October 24, 2018, 10:33:11 PM
Pete asked that I take a look at this thread as I worked for PR about 25 years ago and perhaps I could make some comments.  I remember Anthony Buccieri and I have a great respect for him as he tells the truth with nothing to hide as it appears he did when questioned about PR pizza.  From what I've briefly read, he is telling the truth about PR's pizza. 

So, I will comment on the sauce.  PR used a proprietary blend produced by Stanislaus.  It came in pallets of #10 cans.  The only ingredients in those cans that I remember was tomato, salt, oregano, and citric acid.  To make the pizza sauce 2 cans of this proprietary Stanislaus base were opened and mixed with 1 #10 can of water that provided the perfect consistency.  Then, about say 1/2 cup of fresh grated Romano cheese was added and stirred in.  That sauce was then put in the walk-in cooler and used the next say.  Obviously we used a lot more cans than that and a lot more Romano than that when prepping sauce as we were making enough to fill multiple 5 gallon buckets with it but that was the base mix as I remember it and it was just multiplied .  Nothing more went into it.  The proprietary blend as best as I can describe it was perhaps a 50/50 blend of 7/11 and Full Red that allowed 2 cans of the proprietary mix be thinned with a #10 can of water.  I will say the oregano that was in the proprietary blend couldn't be seen in the sauce so perhaps it was a powdered oregano that was added by Stanislaus during production?  PR's pizza sauce had a STRONG taste of oregano if you tasted it raw on the prep station with a spoon and also quite a bite that was probably from the addition of the citric acid.  Other than that, absolutely nothing else was in the sauce. 
   
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 25, 2018, 08:47:08 AM
Pizza Shark,

Thank you very much for your observations, including those relating to Anthony. It has been an interesting exercise trying to find all of the pieces and put them together. And, as with any business that has been around for decades, changes to formulations, ingredients and methods are inevitable. And that seems to apply to PR also.

I also edited Reply 125 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54120.msg546735#msg546735 to refer to your last post.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norcoscia on October 25, 2018, 08:51:21 AM
What is PR?
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 25, 2018, 09:25:14 AM
What is PR?
Norm,

Thanks for asking. PR stands for Pizzeria Regina. That name that has its origins in 1926. But for some reason, they decided to call later locations Regina Pizzeria. Since you asked, I modified the PR entry at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20056.msg196875#msg196875 to add reference to Pizzeria Regina. To date, PR has been used in this thread a few hundred times, hence our reluctance to spell out PR every time ;D.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norcoscia on October 25, 2018, 09:44:35 AM
Thanks - I did look it up and figured it was not Parmigiano-Reggiano or the other peter :-)
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 25, 2018, 05:21:42 PM
Hey Pod... On another note... It's been 20+ years since worked for Pizzeria R and I have to say looking at the photos you posted of the pies you recently purchased "WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON UP THERE!" (I live in VA now).  Good Lord those pies look terrible.  One has a massive bubble that would have been popped during the bake back in the day (bubbles only allowed on the crust) and that last shot of a crust loaded with all that chalky flour after the bake... Yuck!  The distribution of sauce and cheese is wrong with center pooling very evident (someone wasn't trained to sauce and cheese heavier at the the perimeter and gradually lighter to the middle where there should be next to nothing when placed into the oven as it ALL migrates to the middle during the bake).  Who wants a "swimming pool" pizza with a soupy mess in the middle one could dive into from the crust?  Those look like thrown together messes compared what we turned out 20 years ago. 

Believe me... After years of making pizza and being cocky back in the day (which is very evident in my initial posts on this thread because I worked there and thought I knew it all)... Listening to members on this forum and the advice they shared I now make a far better pie today at home than Pizzeria R ever made.  I even asked asked Pete to delete this thread because there are far better threads to follow but he thought it still had a place here perhaps to serve as a starting point for those interested in NYS pizza.   

Everyone has their own idea of what the PERFECT pie should be and taste like.  For most it comes down to what they ate and loved where they grew up as that taste is burned into their brain and is usually surrounded with great memories of the times they ate those pies.  Looking at what you purchased at Pizzeria R, they are relying on that burned in memory and the Best of Boston awards that continued to draw customers.  Pies that looked like what you posted may have made their way out to customers during a rush by a new employee but that certainly wouldn't be the norm or allowed to continue as more training would be mandated back in the day.  There is a rustic and authentic pie and then there is a mess that is served under the guise that it is rustic and authentic.  That looks to be what they are serving these days.

Sorry havenít been on since the other day myself. No problem at all in the delay, I saw you werenít logged in since July I believe. I appreciate the replies and PM! Thank you for letting me know what flour you use and dough method. Iíve bought about 5 different flours and everything youíve said has been right. I feel that itís. It about the flour, but more the technique, similar to how you put it. I called and spoke with someone from PR and he said they were using a high strength bleached bromate flour with a blend of cottonseed, sunflower, and olive oils. Sounds like the La Spagnola oil since another PR high up spoke about Cantina/La Spagnola being the company he had asked about for what oil they used.

Iíve been loving Gold Medal bread flour and All Trumps ever since my King Arthur bread flour tasted odd. Maybe I got a bad bag, but it has always smelled off. Through testing I found the different flavors that Braintree PR pies taste like (brown Maillard reaction more in line with a NY pie at lower temps). Haha youíre so right about the pizzas in the pictures. The North End location has carried a lot lately, with caking flour, big bubbles, and soupy cheese/sauce in the middle. They still tasted great, but Iíve been constructing better ones at home. Braintree PR usually gets brown on the rim and the bottom of the pie, and is totally different than the North End ones. I have seen consistent pies in Braintree though since the Manager told me he has been teaching consitancy. Iíve seen pizzas look consistent for about a month now but mainly when heís making them. The other employees seem like they are still doing it a bit their way but learning.

Thank you for your sauce tips and insight and Iíll reply on my thread too. What you described is exactly as I had tasted from getting some uncooked sauce from the line at Medford. Very oregano flavored but not much acidity. My sauce from PR did ferment in one night which was interesting and I believe from yeast in it. I wonder if they use dried oregano now because I was able to pick out pieces. Its definitely a very watered down sauce and replicated as you had said using Full Red Pizza Sauce and adding water. I got some Italian Oregno which tastes awesome in it.

Youíre so right about letting the dough cold ferment longer. Iím leaving about 6 dough balls ferment for this week, but when I tried it last week it definitely made a big difference.  Two things I wanted to ask you: was it just fresh yeast you used when you worked there? Weíve been trying to find out what they describe as ďSpecial Natural YeastĒ on their website and napkins. Also, I tasted extreme butter flavor from some cold cheese I got from PR. Do you think they are adding butter flavor oil to it or maybe a very fatty loaf of the Mozz cheese. Iíve tried aging Empire Whole Milk Mozz for 3 months but it doesnít taste like theirs. Their Mozz tastes like fake flavoring added to it and the guys at Braintree even said how buttery it is. I believe this is something theyíve been doing for maybe 10 years and I feel itís a big factor. Itís so buttery when melted that it smells like butter flavored popcorn. I wonder if milk solids are added to their cheese. Thanks Pizzashark!
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 25, 2018, 05:46:57 PM
Pete asked that I take a look at this thread as I worked for PR about 25 years ago and perhaps I could make some comments.  I remember Anthony Buccieri and I have a great respect for him as he tells the truth with nothing to hide as it appears he did when questioned about PR pizza.  From what I've briefly read, he is telling the truth about PR's pizza. 

So, I will comment on the sauce.  PR used a proprietary blend produced by Stanislaus.  It came in pallets of #10 cans.  The only ingredients in those cans that I remember was tomato, salt, oregano, and citric acid.  To make the pizza sauce 2 cans of this proprietary Stanislaus base were opened and mixed with 1 #10 can of water that provided the perfect consistency.  Then, about say 1/2 cup of fresh grated Romano cheese was added and stirred in.  That sauce was then put in the walk-in cooler and used the next say.  Obviously we used a lot more cans than that and a lot more Romano than that when prepping sauce as we were making enough to fill multiple 5 gallon buckets with it but that was the base mix as I remember it and it was just multiplied .  Nothing more went into it.  The proprietary blend as best as I can describe it was perhaps a 50/50 blend of 7/11 and Full Red that allowed 2 cans of the proprietary mix be thinned with a #10 can of water.  I will say the oregano that was in the proprietary blend couldn't be seen in the sauce so perhaps it was a powdered oregano that was added by Stanislaus during production?  PR's pizza sauce had a STRONG taste of oregano if you tasted it raw on the prep station with a spoon and also quite a bite that was probably from the addition of the citric acid.  Other than that, absolutely nothing else was in the sauce. 
 

Thank you very much Pizzashark for replying.  Your info along with the other membersí info on here has been amazing.  You guys know so much about pizza and Iíve learned a lot. What you said about less toppings, using the edges instead of the middle, and painting the pizza has been how Iíve been approaching my last couple of pies. You can notice how they look much better and more NY style. I know you said the dough should be wet enough to stick to the peel if left on long enough. I bet I need a wetter dough then as mine have been a bit on the dryer probably 55-60% side. I do a lot by feel now after I measure everything out. 

 Anothony definitely seems like a stand up honest guy. I was impressed that he said where they get the cheese from and other details. I bet they are using oil from Cantina/La Spagnola as one of the higher ups talked about that company at peanutallergy.com. Thank you so much for the sauce recipe!  Interesting it was a 50/50 blend. I was able to pick out oregano using some sauce I got from them so I wonder if they changed that or not. I bet they also changed the acidity because the one I tasted was low citric acid wise. It was kind of like taking the acidity of Kitchen Ready by Pastene and then adding even more water. It definitely tasted like 50/50 Tomato Magic/Pastene Kitchen Ready and water, with a good amount of Oregeno and barely any cheese added.

Their cheese is something Iíve focused on lately and I think they are adding something to it. Either milk solids or butter flavoring. I canít get over how fake it tastes and some of the workers at Braintree had noted how buttery it is. I think they are trying to appeal to the mass market by enhancing the butter flavor. When I tried the cold sample of cheese it tasted like movie theatre buttered oil.

I wonder if they are using anything new in their dough and I wonder if fresh or dried yeast is used. I like your dough recipe as I feel it has better quality ingredients. Thank you for the sugar tip and I have been wondering if they use sugar too. What I once thought was the malt that gave the dough the wheat flavor, may be just the Maillard reaction. The malt in the flour may make a taste difference, but I feel itís more just the flour and 7 day cold ferment. The North End has less Maillard reaction than Braintree, but still tastes a bit wheaty. Iím guessing the North End oven being a bit hotter doesnít allow for much browning compared to Braintreeís 485į oven. Doing tests of 500-600į bake compared to 485į seemed to confirm this. This is why I think the cold ferment has a big thing to do with the wheat taste people talk about. My dough seems close now that I cold ferment for 3-7 days, use oil, and am using good tasting flour lol. Itís amazing the smell after 7 days even just using IDY. I need to get some fresh yeast for testing though. I also used some brewers yeast on the dough balls this week.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 25, 2018, 06:23:43 PM
Pod4477,

The brand of the oil blend you are using, La Spagnola, is a brand of Catania-Spagna Corporation. However, when I went to their website, at https://cataniaoils.com/, I thought that I would find the three-oil blend that the PR employee told you they are using. However, among the large number of selections offered to customers, I could not find that blend. Do you suppose that PR is using some other source of that blend? Or possibly Catania-Spagna will blend oils to a commercial user's specs? I realize that not using cottonseed oil is not the end of the world but Pizza Shark spoke so highly of that oil. At one time cottonseed oil may have been cheap but I could not find it at any of my local supermarkets and it was quite expensive to buy it from an online source.

I donít know if you mentioned it before but is the Empire cheese you have been using a retail cheese or a foodservice cheese? The reason I ask is because it is common for the retail cheese not to be the same as the foodservice version or as good as the foodservice version.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pizza Shark on October 25, 2018, 07:45:41 PM
The whole milk mozz PR used 20+ years ago when I was there was made by the Empire Cheese Company in Cuba, NY.  It was delivered from PR's commissary to the stores in the standard loafs and those loafs were shredded at the store level.  A member of the forum subsequently informed me that Empire Cheese was bought out by the Great Lakes Cheese company? many years ago.  I don't know if they kept the regional Empire brand name or rolled it and sell it under the Great Lakes brand but if you are buying Empire brand cheese it appears they have kept the regional brand name.   

Who knows if PR is using Great Lakes/Empire or Grande or another brand these days.  I don't know how long they aged the cheese at the commissary but I was told they did age it and that was the reason it took on a more yellow color.  Maybe it was all BS we were told at the store level?  It was very high in butter fat and under the high temp bake it would break and release all that fat just as every cheese does creating that mix of boiling sauce creeping up from underneath and butterfat released by the cheese that created that glistening grease pool top.

With regard to your yeast question... I don't know what yeast they used as the dough was made at the commissary.  The one thing PR did (in my opinion) is they spent $ on top quality cheese and the Stanislaus sauce base.  Everything else was CHEAP CHEAP from that cottonseed oil used in the dough to the spicy drizzle oil / garlic drizzle oil that was like an 80/20 blend of cheap garbage oil / olive oil with seasoning added.  If PR is claiming they use some "special natural yeast" I don't know what that means.  All yeast is natural and the big vacuum packed bag I buy of it at Costco that lasts me a over a year kept sealed in the fridge is "special" to me.  My guess is the yeast is probably common generic yeast purchased in bulk.  Yeast is yeast and it serves a simple purpose in dough and that is leavening.  PR is making pizza dough, not brewing beer that requires special strains of yeast that continue to perform in fermentation to higher and higher alcohol contents.

With regard to the buttery flavor you think you taste in the crust, I sent you a PM that may address that.  With regard to the buttery flavor provided by the cheese... Well, butter fat is worth $.  Whole milk costs more than part skim milk because the fat that could be pulled out and sold as butter is left in whole milk. Same thing with cheese... They can use more costly whole milk in producing it or cheaper part skim milk that has some of the natural fats removed from it to sell.  This is where "Part Skim" mozzarella comes from as it is made with milk that has been stripped of a portion of it's natural percentage of milk fat that gets sold elsewhere and is used in other products... the #1 being BUTTER. 

This brings me to a simple solution to the Whole Milk vs: Part Skim cheese argument that has been raging forever.  The cheese is going to break in a high temp bake and release its butter fat content so if you are using Part Skim cheese or even crappy bagged cheese from Walmart that has been stripped of virtually all butter fat one can fix this.  It is not perfect but what do ya do? You replace the butter fat that has been stripped away (and that would normally be released when the cheese "breaks" anyway) by adding it back.  That means you grab a stick of butter, slice some slivers off and throw them on top of the pizza before you bake it.  The butter fat is then added back, the flavor is added back and you end up with the same top of butterfat grease you'd have if you had used whole milk cheese that broke during the bake.  Simple Simple.   
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 26, 2018, 12:26:37 AM
Maybe it was just what they tell the employees. They mention aging a lot in their videos too and I feel itís important too, but it just seems so extremely buttery that I feel something is added. Itís basically the same butternidea you had I bet. I bet they just add more fat or butter flavor to the cheese or on the cheese. I forgot that the beer yeast discussion came from the post about brewers yeast being used. I have a feeling itís just fresh yeast possibly. Your butter method is perfect and I just need to try out different butter brands.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 26, 2018, 12:59:09 AM
Pod4477,

The brand of the oil blend you are using, La Spagnola, is a brand of Catania-Spagna Corporation. However, when I went to their website, at https://cataniaoils.com/, I thought that I would find the three-oil blend that the PR employee told you they are using. However, among the large number of selections offered to customers, I could not find that blend. Do you suppose that PR is using some other source of that blend? Or possibly Catania-Spagna will blend oils to a commercial user's specs? I realize that not using cottonseed oil is not the end of the world but Pizza Shark spoke so highly of that oil. At one time cottonseed oil may have been cheap but I could not find it at any of my local supermarkets and it was quite expensive to buy it from an online source.

I donít know if you mentioned it before but is the Empire cheese you have been using a retail cheese or a foodservice cheese? The reason I ask is because it is common for the retail cheese not to be the same as the foodservice version or as good as the foodservice version.

Peter

Thank you for confirming. A bit confusing that the company is Cantina/La Spangna and the oil is called La Spagnola. My thought is that they either have a certain blend just for them, or maybe the vegetable oils have changed. On the ingredient list I believe it says something about vegetable oils changing due to what oil is available. Maybe thatís why? Not sure but it smells very similar to PRís crust.

I believe my Empire is the foodservice one. I get it at a local Italian deli/market and it comes in the big loaves and a red Empire label. I have the label saved in my fridge. Last time I looked it said it was from Cuba, NY. The taste of my Empire seemed very much the same as PR, as opposed to the test between Galbani and PR. PR cheese just seemed overwhelmingly buttery and saltier. Same flavor profile with my Empire and PRís, just hyped up on PRís. Galbani has always seemed much milkier with more of a Ricotta taste compared to my Empireís that Iíve bought. Whether I bought the normal moisture Galbani WMM from BJís or the Low Moisture Galbani/Sorrento WMM, they always seem very milky. Both my Empire and PR have less milky taste and more butter taste, with PR being over the top butter tasting. Since Iíve been adding clarified butter (with the milk solids included, just removing the water) itís become closer and closer to PR. The butter seems more real while PR just has that taste of fake butter. I could be wrong but it just seems like they are adding the flavor somehow.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: bigMoose on October 26, 2018, 08:15:07 AM
When you said "fake butter" it made me think of "Butter Buds"  Sprinkles.  If it was sprinkled on or in the shredded Mozzarella it might just look like a grated hard cheese until it encountered the heat of the oven. Just a thought.

https://www.amazon.com/Butter-Flavored-Sprinkle-Granules-Substitute/dp/B000LKTET2?th=1 (https://www.amazon.com/Butter-Flavored-Sprinkle-Granules-Substitute/dp/B000LKTET2?th=1)

Quote
Butter Buds contains maltodextrin (a natural carbohydrate derived from corn), natural butter flavor (extracted from the butter oils and then dried to a powder-like form), salt, dehydrated butter, guar gum and baking soda.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 26, 2018, 02:36:21 PM
When you said "fake butter" it made me think of "Butter Buds"  Sprinkles.  If it was sprinkled on or in the shredded Mozzarella it might just look like a grated hard cheese until it encountered the heat of the oven. Just a thought.

https://www.amazon.com/Butter-Flavored-Sprinkle-Granules-Substitute/dp/B000LKTET2?th=1 (https://www.amazon.com/Butter-Flavored-Sprinkle-Granules-Substitute/dp/B000LKTET2?th=1)

Very interesting and I was thinking of something like this too. I have a similar product that I bought. They say itís derived from milk solids. I wonder if something is added after itís shredded or if Great Lakes is making a special batch just for PR, with added fat or butter flavoring/milk solids. When I did my clarified butter test, it was the milk solids that gave me the butter flavor. The butterfat was rather bland without the milk solids and salt.  So I ended up using the milk solids and butterfat, and removed only the water. The smell was similar to PR, but not as intense. This is why I believe they are adding a TON of concentrated butter flavor to the cheese.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 26, 2018, 03:45:03 PM
I believe my Empire is the foodservice one. I get it at a local Italian deli/market and it comes in the big loaves and a red Empire label. I have the label saved in my fridge. Last time I looked it said it was from Cuba, NY. The taste of my Empire seemed very much the same as PR, as opposed to the test between Galbani and PR. PR cheese just seemed overwhelmingly buttery and saltier. Same flavor profile with my Empire and PRís, just hyped up on PRís. Galbani has always seemed much milkier with more of a Ricotta taste compared to my Empireís that Iíve bought. Whether I bought the normal moisture Galbani WMM from BJís or the Low Moisture Galbani/Sorrento WMM, they always seem very milky. Both my Empire and PR have less milky taste and more butter taste, with PR being over the top butter tasting. Since Iíve been adding clarified butter (with the milk solids included, just removing the water) itís become closer and closer to PR. The butter seems more real while PR just has that taste of fake butter. I could be wrong but it just seems like they are adding the flavor somehow.

Pod4477,

By any chance, does the label for the loaf of Empire cheese you purchased look like the one at 1:08 in the video at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=pMR1Zbp1iWM

And is there any ingredients list and/or nutrition information on the label you saved?

FYI, I expanded the photo of the label for the shredded Great Lakes low moisture whole milk mozzarella cheese that you posted in Reply 224 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54120.msg548553#msg548553, and the nutrition information, especially for the fats, is very similar to that given for such a cheese at the NutritionDataSelf website at https://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/26/2. So it is unlikely that the Great Lakes shredded cheese you recently purchased was supplemented with more fat. But that may not be the case with the Empire block cheese you have been using.

Also, as shown at https://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/details/DFA242, the Great Lakes shredded low moisture part skim mozzarella cheese has lower fat numbers, as is to be expected. And it also includes anti-caking agents, as does the shredded Great Lakes whole milk mozzarella cheese you recently purchased.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 28, 2018, 09:24:48 PM
Thought I would give this pizza a try, even though I never ate one, or don't even have the Empire mozzarella to try.  I do have the GM Full Strength flour, the Full Red Sauce and the Saporito with basil.  Mozzarella that is going to be tried is below.  Saw in some of PR's photos that somehow they had Fillippo Berio on their counter at different times.  Maybe they were just promoting it, but that is what I used as the oil.

Used Peter's dough formulation he set forth at Reply 76 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54120.msg545841#msg545841

Thought the Kitchen Aid would have some problems with that much oil and the lower hydration.  Was a breeze to mix.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norcoscia on October 29, 2018, 08:44:25 AM
Funny Norma, I was thinking about trying 4-5% oil in my next dough just to get a good feel about the differences in final texture - please keep us posted and let us know how the crust and pie turns out....
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 29, 2018, 09:25:34 AM
Funny Norma, I was thinking about trying 4-5% oil in my next dough just to get a good feel about the differences in final texture - please keep us posted and let us know how the crust and pie turns out....

Norm,

Peter's formula kinda reminded me of the Mack's dough formula at Reply 307 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg99472#msg99472 but the hydration was lower with the same amount of oil.  No sugar though.  When mixing that formula in the Kitchen Aid had some problems with getting the oil to incorporate.  Really don't know why there weren't any problems with the PR's forumla, when the oil was added last.

Good luck to you if you try a lower hydration dough with a higher amount of oil!  Maybe you might want to try Peter's formula too.  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 29, 2018, 09:35:30 AM
Norma,

The numbers for the dough formulation you used are from Pizza Shark. I just assumed that the yeast was fresh yeast.

In any event, I also look forward to your results. Will you be shooting for a cold fermentation period of 6-7 days?

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norcoscia on October 29, 2018, 10:22:21 AM
I usually add my oil with everything else - same issue with my KA - when I put the oil in later it really has a hard time incorporating it and mixing the dough properly.

The last dough I made I did hold it back, I did a hand mix just to pick up all the flour - let it rest for 15 min. Then added in the oil and mixed it in by hand for a few min. - Then into the KA - that worked a million times better and it started mixing normally in ~30 seconds... But too much work for me, my arm wrestling days are long gone -- so no point in hand mixing  :-D
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 29, 2018, 11:18:40 AM
Norma,

The numbers for the dough formulation you used are from Pizza Shark. I just assumed that the yeast was fresh yeast.

In any event, I also look forward to your results. Will you be shooting for a cold fermentation period of 6-7 days?

Peter

Peter,

I though the dough recipe was from Pizza Shark, but didn't you convert to percentages?  Only a four day cold ferment, just to see how the pizza turns out.  Made the dough the other day.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 29, 2018, 11:21:38 AM
I usually add my oil with everything else - same issue with my KA - when I put the oil in later it really has a hard time incorporating it and mixing the dough properly.

The last dough I made I did hold it back, I did a hand mix just to pick up all the flour - let it rest for 15 min. Then added in the oil and mixed it in by hand for a few min. - Then into the KA - that worked a million times better and it started mixing normally in ~30 seconds... But too much work for me, my arm wrestling days are long gone -- so no point in hand mixing  :-D

Norm,

At least you got the job done!   ;D  I mixed another Ischia starter dough this morning in the Kitchen Aid with not as much oil.  Things seem to work better for me if I use the flat beater first and let the dough mix with that even after adding the oil.  Then change over to the dough hook to finish mixing.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 29, 2018, 01:44:02 PM
Peter,

I though the dough recipe was from Pizza Shark, but didn't you convert to percentages?  Only a four day cold ferment, just to see how the pizza turns out.  Made the dough the other day.

Norma
Norma,

Yes, I did do the conversion to baker's percents but that was a simple matter. However, I did assume that all of the ingredients were in weight, not volumes. Pizza Shark's original recipe appeared in a post by Steve at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=389.msg3291#msg3291

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 29, 2018, 06:15:34 PM
Norma,

Yes, I did do the conversion to baker's percents but that was a simple matter. However, I did assume that all of the ingredients were in weight, not volumes. Pizza Shark's original recipe appeared in a post by Steve at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=389.msg3291#msg3291

Peter

Thanks Peter!

I got an email today and might be able to get a sample of the Empire mozzarella.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 29, 2018, 10:57:32 PM
Pod4477,

By any chance, does the label for the loaf of Empire cheese you purchased look like the one at 1:08 in the video at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=pMR1Zbp1iWM

And is there any ingredients list and/or nutrition information on the label you saved?

FYI, I expanded the photo of the label for the shredded Great Lakes low moisture whole milk mozzarella cheese that you posted in Reply 224 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54120.msg548553#msg548553, and the nutrition information, especially for the fats, is very similar to that given for such a cheese at the NutritionDataSelf website at https://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/26/2. So it is unlikely that the Great Lakes shredded cheese you recently purchased was supplemented with more fat. But that may not be the case with the Empire block cheese you have been using.

Also, as shown at https://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/details/DFA242, the Great Lakes shredded low moisture part skim mozzarella cheese has lower fat numbers, as is to be expected. And it also includes anti-caking agents, as does the shredded Great Lakes whole milk mozzarella cheese you recently purchased.

Peter

Sorry havenít been on in a few days. Iíll take a look at the label. Iíll post a picture. So Iíve been messing around with a Chicago deep dish recipe with 33% corn oil. I realized that the recipe for PR may have more oil and water than I thought, as the smell of the Deep Dish dough smelled exactly like PR. Itís a 70% hydration but more like 65%, with 33% oil and .5-1% yeast. After one day it smelled amazing. Ironically I had issues with incorporating oil at first in my KA mixer, so I ended up adding some water then some oil, and then the rest of the water and the rest of the oil. It made an exact deep dish crust, as the All-purpose flour and 2 minute knead time made it light and flakey. Iím going to try using more oil and different hydrations.

Norma, Iím excited to see how it turns out. Your dough looks amazing. Iím making one of my 7 day doughs tomorrow.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: foreplease on October 29, 2018, 11:15:40 PM
I hope you will tell us more about the 33% oil dough and post some pictures. I donít think Iíve seen or heard about anything like it.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 30, 2018, 12:02:47 AM
I hope you will tell us more about the 33% oil dough and post some pictures. I donít think Iíve seen or heard about anything like it.

I will definitely. Iíve been working on it all week and at first I was using a bit too much yeast. Iíve been used to the .20% and 3-7 day cold ferments, that I ended up using too much at first on the deep dish one. The recipe comes from a user on chowhound, and I assume it was maybe posted here at one point. I believe the user said his family had a recipe or owned a Chicago restaurant. Someone converted his recipe into bakers percentages but then I tweaked them a bit. I had to convert his ADY or Fresh Yeast percentages to my IDY, and I landed around .27-.30% IDY. Do you guys tend to use less yeast than some recipes say? I always find .20% IDY to be perfect for my long cold ferments and usually .30% for other doughs. The dough comes out very very oily and much like pie dough, of course. Everything the user on chowhound said was correct, regarding underkneading and the use of only corn oil instead of corn meal. I let the dough proof at 100į (when Iím in a hurry) for about 2 hours and then roll it out like a pie crust. Iíll make a new thread for it with exactly how I did it. But it ties into PR a lot too. The definitely arenít using 33% corn oil, but I do think the 5% or more of the blend is key. I talked to a worker at Braintree and he said the dough isnít too sticky, and it looks to me to be an average hydration. Iím sure Pizzashark will know how the feel of it should be.

Btw, Norma, how is that Mozzeria? Iíve seen it but never used it.

Peter,
The label pictured below didnít have nutrition facts, but did have ingredients. I have a question about oil. Is it best to/should I be subtracting the oil weight from the water? In my dough I use about 13g oil, so should I be subtracting 13g/ml water? Lately, Iíve just been adding the oil on top of my already 50%-70% dough. Thanks!
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2018, 07:44:27 AM
Peter,
The label pictured below didnít have nutrition facts, but did have ingredients. I have a question about oil. Is it best to/should I be subtracting the oil weight from the water? In my dough I use about 13g oil, so should I be subtracting 13g/ml water? Lately, Iíve just been adding the oil on top of my already 50%-70% dough. Thanks!
Pod4477,

The practice I follow, especially when I do not have any numbers for the hydration of a dough and the amount of oil to use in the dough, is to have the sum of the hydration percent and the oil percent be equal to the rated absorption value of the flour used. This is something I learned from Tom Lehmann. You can read his own words on this method here:

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/lehmann.6110/#post-38321

If PR is truly using a high gluten flour, as Anthony told us, then the rated absorption value for such a flour should be around 63%. That should be true irrespective of the brand of that flour, and that would include an ADM high gluten flour or the All Trumps high gluten flour. So, in our example, the sum of water and oil in the first dough formulation I posted at Reply 78 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54120.msg545887#msg545887 is 52.5 + 5 = 57.5. At first blush, that might seem to be on the low side. However, the 57.5% number, if treated as the "effective hydration" of the flour, is not an uncommon value. Also, if the objective is to have the dough cold ferment for 6-7 days, as Anthony also told us, then you do not want to have a high hydration value because that will cause the dough to ferment faster and possibly not make it out to 6-7 days. These are both matters that I discussed in a general way at Reply 1 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9002.msg77868;topicseen#msg77868

From the label you posted for the Empire cheese, it looks like the packaging of the cheese may be different for that product as sold at the retail level as opposed to direct shipments from Empire to commercial end users such as PR. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Empire cheese is really a Great Lakes cheese sold under the Empire label. I believe that Norma commented on that point in one of her posts here on the forum. Either way, it looks like the Empire cheese you have is the basic whole milk mozzarella cheese product, and not enhanced by adding flavorings, extra fat or anything else. Of course, we can't say for sure since, as Anthony told us, they contract with Empire for a special blend just for PR. All mozzarella cheeses are blends of ingredients, so maybe Anthony's reference to a blend is to attach a significance or value to the cheese that doesn't really exist and is dubious. However, I would add that after reading a ton of material about Great Lakes cheeses I have not seen a hint that they will produce customized cheese formulations for commercial customers. Maybe they will do that but one would have to call Great Lakes to get an answer to that question.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 30, 2018, 02:10:22 PM
Pod4477,

The practice I follow, especially when I do not have any numbers for the hydration of a dough and the amount of oil to use in the dough, is to have the sum of the hydration percent and the oil percent be equal to the rated absorption value of the flour used. This is something I learned from Tom Lehmann. You can read his own words on this method here:

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/lehmann.6110/#post-38321

If PR is truly using a high gluten flour, as Anthony told us, then the rated absorption value for such a flour should be around 63%. That should be true irrespective of the brand of that flour, and that would include an ADM high gluten flour or the All Trumps high gluten flour. So, in our example, the sum of water and oil in the first dough formulation I posted at Reply 78 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54120.msg545887#msg545887 is 52.5 + 5 = 57.5. At first blush, that might seem to be on the low side. However, the 57.5% number, if treated as the "effective hydration" of the flour, is not an uncommon value. Also, if the objective is to have the dough cold ferment for 6-7 days, as Anthony also told us, then you do not want to have a high hydration value because that will cause the dough to ferment faster and possibly not make it out to 6-7 days. These are both matters that I discussed in a general way at Reply 1 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9002.msg77868;topicseen#msg77868

From the label you posted for the Empire cheese, it looks like the packaging of the cheese may be different for that product as sold at the retail level as opposed to direct shipments from Empire to commercial end users such as PR. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Empire cheese is really a Great Lakes cheese sold under the Empire label. I believe that Norma commented on that point in one of her posts here on the forum. Either way, it looks like the Empire cheese you have is the basic whole milk mozzarella cheese product, and not enhanced by adding flavorings, extra fat or anything else. Of course, we can't say for sure since, as Anthony told us, they contract with Empire for a special blend just for PR. All mozzarella cheeses are blends of ingredients, so maybe Anthony's reference to a blend is to attach a significance or value to the cheese that doesn't really exist and is dubious. However, I would add that after reading a ton of material about Great Lakes cheeses I have not seen a hint that they will produce customized cheese formulations for commercial customers. Maybe they will do that but one would have to call Great Lakes to get an answer to that question.

Peter

Thank you for explaining this again for me.  I think earlier I didn't understand the difference between hydration percentage and effective hydration percentage due to the oil.  I've switched over to using the Expanded Pizza Dough Calculator tool, as it is much better than the one I was using before in my screenshots.  That calculator wasn't taking the oil weight and salt weight into account for the total dough ball weight, and my dough balls were always turning out to be about 24g larger.

So is it fair to assume that Gold Medal Bread Flour has an absorption rate of around 62% +/-2%?  I also read your post about ďoperational absorptionĒ value, but sticking to rated absorption values I have been using the sum to equal the effective absorption of 57.5% as you noted, and up to 60% effective absorption.  I get what you're saying about the oil having a wetting effect so these seem good.  I used the tool, but I noticed it only has general flour as the ingredient, and your calculations have high-Gluten flour listed. Is there a way to change this or how would this differ in say a calculation of:

Flour (100%):     296.41 g  |  10.46 oz | 0.65 lbs 
Water (52.5%):     155.62 g  |  5.49 oz | 0.34 lbs 
IDY (.20%):     0.59 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.2 tsp | 0.07 tbsp 
Salt (1.875%):     5.56 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp 
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5%):     14.82 g | 0.52 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.26 tsp | 1.09 tbsp 
Total (159.575%):    473 g | 16.68 oz | 1.04 lbs | TF = N/A

Thank you for letting me know about the Empire cheese, as I believed I had commercial Empire, but I was wrong, so my apologies.  I wonder if this is the reason PR Empire cheese tasted butterier than mine.  There must be either more fat added or something.  I was blown away by the amount of butter flavor on just one shredded strand of PR cold Empire/Great Lakes cheese.  Yes good point about whether or not they would make custom formulations for certain commercial customers. 
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2018, 03:32:08 PM
Pod4477,

Can you tell me how you came up with the numbers for the dough formulation you set forth in your last post? For example, did you pick a desired dough ball weight or did you use a thickness factor? Also, what kind of salt did you select? And did you use a bowl residue compensation and, if so, what value did you select? I will answer the questions you raised about the expanded dough calculating tool once I have received the above requested information.

As for the Empire cheese, there is no need to apologize about the differences between the retail and commercial versions of their block mozzarella cheese. My guess is that for contracts that Empire has with its accounts like PM, the shrink-wrapped blocks of cheese are perhaps packed tightly in boxes and shipped to the accounts. You might recall that in Anthony's interview (https://www.spreaker.com/user/fooddrinktravel/food-drink-travel-episode-21, at 5:46) he says that they order several thousand pounds a month. By contrast, the blocks shipped to retail accounts are most likely in much smaller quantities and packaged differently. However, as I have noted before, and as many members in the past have similarly noted with respect to other brands of pizza cheeses, the cheeses sold at retail can be different than those sold to commercial accounts, with the cheeses sold to commercial accounts usually being of higher quality. You would have to speak with someone at Great Lakes or Empire to see if they follow the same practice. At the same time, they should be able to answer whether they make custom cheese blends to the specifications of their commercial customers and what are some examples of such custom blends.

In projects like this, you want to get as much evidence and facts as possible. It is much like a forensics expert who arrives at the scene of the crime and tries to find all of the relevant clues as to what happened. To evidence and facts, you can add logic and common sense. Most professionals who are successful don't tend to do illogical or dumb things, at least not for long, for otherwise they would soon be out of business. What you want to avoid as much as possible is guessing at things, since then the possibilities are endless. More than once, I have ended efforts to reverse engineer and clone pizzas of others because I ran out of facts and evidence and had no remaining way to get the facts and evidence and, and logic and common sense did not save me.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 30, 2018, 04:14:27 PM
Pod4477,

Can you tell me how you came up with the numbers for the dough formulation you set forth in your last post? For example, did you pick a desired dough ball weight or did you use a thickness factor? Also, what kind of salt did you select? And did you use a bowl residue compensation and, if so, what value did you select? I will answer the questions you raised about the expanded dough calculating tool once I have received the above requested information.

As for the Empire cheese, there is no need to apologize about the differences between the retail and commercial versions of their block mozzarella cheese. My guess is that for contracts that Empire has with its accounts like PM, the shrink-wrapped blocks of cheese are perhaps packed tightly in boxes and shipped to the accounts. You might recall that in Anthony's interview (https://www.spreaker.com/user/fooddrinktravel/food-drink-travel-episode-21, at 5:46) he says that they order several thousand pounds a month. By contrast, the blocks shipped to retail accounts are most likely in much smaller quantities and packaged differently. However, as I have noted before, and as many members in the past have similarly noted with respect to other brands of pizza cheeses, the cheeses sold at retail can be different than those sold to commercial accounts, with the cheeses sold to commercial accounts usually being of higher quality. You would have to speak with someone at Great Lakes or Empire to see if they follow the same practice. At the same time, they should be able to answer whether they make custom cheese blends to the specifications of their commercial customers and what are some examples of such custom blends.

In projects like this, you want to get as much evidence and facts as possible. It is much like a forensics expert who arrives at the scene of the crime and tries to find all of the relevant clues as to what happened. To evidence and facts, you can add logic and common sense. Most professionals who are successful don't tend to do illogical or dumb things, at least not for long, for otherwise they would soon be out of businees. What you want to avoid as much as possible is guessing at things, since then the possibilities are endless. More than once, I have ended efforts to reverse engineer and clone pizzas of others because I ran out of facts and evidence and had no remaining way to get the facts and evidence and logic, and common sense did not save me.

Peter

Still experimenting on the tool, but I selected a dough ball weight of 473g on the tool, as I liked this amount on the last 16" cheese pizza I made.  Salt was Mortons Kosher, but I may change it to Dimond Crystal Kosher.  No bowl residue compensation.

Very good points about the Empire cheese and I appreciate you saying no need to apologize.  The deli I get it at does quite low amounts of sales for that Mozzarella.  I will have to call Great Lakes and ask these questions.  I've been meaning to. 

Valuable advice about getting as much evidence and facts as possible.  Guessing cannot work as you said, because there are too many variables. I really appreciate your advice and interesting to know you have ended cloning efforts due to running out of evidence and facts. I really take this advice to heart, so thank you!
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2018, 04:26:18 PM
Valuable advice about getting as much evidence and facts as possible.  Guessing cannot work as you said, because there are too many variables. I really appreciate your advice and interesting to know you have ended cloning efforts due to running out of evidence and facts. I really take this advice to heart, so thank you!
Pod4477,

Not to belabor the point but sometimes experiments can lead to the desired results but not always. I recall when Norma and I were trying to reverse engineer and clone pizzas of Mellow Mushroom. We knew that MM used molasses in their dough, or so they said. However, there are pseudo-molasses products that are anecdotally called molasses by people in the South, where MM has its headquarters, but are not technically molasses. And there are dozens of brands of real and pseudo-molasses products on the market. When I was in my pantry today, I saw the remains of nine bottles of different real and pseudo-molasses products that I used for my experiments. I had purchased them to get at the ingredients statements and the Nutrition Facts inasmuch as I used the MM nutrition information to come up with my MM clone dough formulations. And on several occasions I talked or had email exchanges with the producers of some of those products. And when I spoke with MM corporate employees and other employees at the store level, they all said that they just used molasses (one employee said it was "that brown stuff"), and could not reveal the brand or did not know what that brand was. The MM commissary was in the Atlanta area, so there was no opportunity to dumpster dive. We would have needed insider information. That was never revealed so that ended the project. Somewhat jokingly, that exercise reminded me of the advice that Kenny Rogers gives in his famous song at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hx4gdlfamo

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2018, 06:16:32 PM
Still experimenting on the tool, but I selected a dough ball weight of 473g on the tool, as I liked this amount on the last 16" cheese pizza I made.  Salt was Morton's Kosher, but I may change it to Daimond Crystal Kosher.  No bowl residue compensation.
Pod4477,

You correctly used the expanded dough calculating tool. That means that you should be able to modify the dough formulation going forward as you wish. I might add that I think that a slightly larger dough ball than you specified in your dough formulation is perhaps the way to go. In the PR video that features Richie Zapata, he mentions that the PR dough ball for the 16" pizza is about a pound. I am guessing from the slices shown in the various videos, and as also shown in some of your photos of the PM pizzas, that the dough ball weight might be somewhat higher than a pound. Since it is very likely that at the PM commissary they use round numbers in their commercial dough rounders, you might consider using 17 ounces for the dough ball weight and adjust up or down as needed based on your results. However, since dough rounders can be off by a fraction of an ounce either way, which may be why Richie said "about", you can also try a dough ball weight that starts at 16 ounces and adjust that value based on your results. 

You are also correct that the Gold Medal retail bread flour that you have been using has a rated absorption value of about 62%. So you should be able to use that number to decide what hydration value to use, as well as the amount of oil or oil blend.

As you noted, the expanded dough calculating tool does not specify the type of flour. That is intentional. The flour can be any flour. I will sometimes modify the output of the tool to specify the type of flour to be more complete. Likewise for the type of salt used. And I always try to note whether there is a bowl residue compensation. And whether a thickness factor is used or not, I indicate its nominal value, along with the pizza size. That way, all of the details are in front of you. You can see these kinds of changes here:

General Mills Bread Flour (100%):
Water (52.5%):
IDY (0.20%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.875%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5%):
Total (159.575%):
296.41 g  |  10.46 oz | 0.65 lbs
155.62 g  |  5.49 oz | 0.34 lbs
0.59 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.2 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
5.56 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
14.82 g | 0.52 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.26 tsp | 1.09 tbsp
473 g | 16.68 oz | 1.04 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for a single 16" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 16.68/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.08296; no bowl residue compensation

And since we are on the topic of flour, I want to let you know that I called General Mills today (at 800-248-7310) and spoke with a customer service rep on what the Enzymes are that are listed in the ingredients statement on the bag of General Mills bread flour that you have been using. I told the rep that I belong to a pizza making forum and that a member (you) had shown us a photo of the bag of the GM flour that included Enzymes in the ingredients statement (see photo below), and had inquired as to whether diastatic malt should be added. I mentioned to the rep that I did not think that the Enzymes meant malted barley flour because the Enzymes were listed at the end of the ingredients statement, not next to the Wheat Flour where it is usually placed. I added that that placement of the Enzymes suggested that GM might be using a bacterial or fungal amylase, which would have been a recent change since GM has always used malted barley flour in its domestic white flours, both at retail and in their professional flours. The rep responded by saying that I knew a lot more about their flours than he did and that he would have to pull up the files that showed what Enzymes are being used in the Gold Medal bread flour.

It turns out that I was correct. When the rep pulled up the files, he said that the Enzymes are a fungal alpha amylase. This is a change that went into effect on August 1, and also applies to all-purpose and bakery flours, and also flours like Wondra. The rep then started asking me questions about their flours, and I ended up giving him a mini-tutorial on their flours. I got a kick out of that.

I guess the use of fungal amylase enzymes means that we can expect to see the change in other flours over time.

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: foreplease on October 30, 2018, 06:49:07 PM
Peter,
Next time you call ask for Betty. She knows this stuff forward and backwards.  ;D
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2018, 07:04:11 PM
Peter,
Next time you call ask for Betty. She knows this stuff forward and backwards.  ;D
Tony,

I will keep that in mind. In the past, I would send emails to Tim Huff, before he became a Doughminator (https://www.generalmillscf.com/industries/pizzeria/support-tool-categories/doughminators/meet-the-doughminators), and we had enough exchanges that he knew who I was when I sent him emails and would respond very shortly thereafter and was always helpful. He is the fellow at the right of the photo below, in the yellow shirt.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: foreplease on October 30, 2018, 07:10:34 PM
They all answer to Betty.  ;D
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norcoscia on October 30, 2018, 07:12:20 PM
OK, I'll bite - who are the other two guys - why is the flour on wooden crates and why does everyone have their hands in their pockets and why is the background all white?
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2018, 07:17:56 PM
OK, I'll bite - who are the other two guys - why is the flour on wooden crates and why does everyone have their hands in their pockets and why is the background all white?
Norm,

You can see the bios for the three guys by clicking on the link in my last post. For the answers to your other questions, you may have to speak with Betty ;D.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norcoscia on October 30, 2018, 07:27:37 PM
Those are great bios - but do any of them have a dough, sauce and cheese calculator - I think not, ha  :-D
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2018, 07:37:00 PM
Those are great bios - but do any of them have a dough, sauce and cheese calculator - I think not, ha  :-D

Norm,

We won't tell them. They might steal them ;D. And they might go after Craig's yeast and starter tables too.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 30, 2018, 08:30:39 PM
Pod4477,

You correctly used the expanded dough calculating tool ;D. That means that you should be able to modify the dough formulation going forward as you wish. I might add that I think that a slightly larger dough ball than you specified in your dough formulation is perhaps the way to go. In the PR video that features Richie Zapata, he mentions that the PR dough ball for the 16" pizza is about a pound. I am guessing from the slices shown in the various videos, and as also shown in some of your photos of the PM pizzas, that the dough ball weight might be somewhat higher than a pound. Since it is very likely that at the PM commissary they use round numbers in their commercial dough rounders, you might consider using 17 ounces for the dough ball weight and adjust up or down as needed based on your results. However, since dough rounders can be off by a fraction of an ounce either way, which may be why Richie said "about", you can also try a dough ball weight that starts at 16 ounces and adjust that value based on your results. 

You are also correct that the Gold Medal retail bread flour that you have been using has a rated absorption value of about 62%. So you should be able to use that number to decide what hydration value to use, as well as the amount of oil or oil blend.

As you noted, the expanded dough calculating tool does not specify the type of flour. That is intentional. The flour can be any flour. I will sometimes modify the output of the tool to specify the type of flour to be more complete. Likewise for the type of salt used. And I always try to note whether there is a bowl residue compensation. And whether a thickness factor is used or not, I indicate its nominal value, along with the pizza size. That way, all of the details are in front of you. You can see these kinds of changes here:

General Mills Bread Flour (100%):
Water (52.5%):
IDY (0.20%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.875%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5%):
Total (159.575%):
296.41 g  |  10.46 oz | 0.65 lbs
155.62 g  |  5.49 oz | 0.34 lbs
0.59 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.2 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
5.56 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
14.82 g | 0.52 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.26 tsp | 1.09 tbsp
473 g | 16.68 oz | 1.04 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for a single 16" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 16.68/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.08296; no bowl residue compensation

And since we are on the topic of flour, I want to let you know that I called General Mills today (at 800-248-7310) and spoke with a customer service rep on what the Enzymes are that are listed in the ingredients statement on the bag of General Mills bread flour that you have been using. I told the rep that I belong to a pizza making forum and that a member (you) had shown us a photo of the bag of the GM flour that included Enzymes in the ingredients statement (see photo below), and had inquired as to whether diastatic malt should be added. I mentioned to the rep that I did not think that the Enzymes meant malted barley flour because the Enzymes were listed at the end of the ingredients statement, not next to the Wheat Flour where it is usually placed. I added that that placement of the Enzymes suggested that GM might be using a bacterial or fungal amylase, which would have been a recent change since GM has always used malted barley flour in its domestic white flours, both at retail and in their professional flours. The rep responded by saying that I knew a lot more about their flours than he did and that he would have to pull up the files that showed what Enzymes are being used in the Gold Medal bread flour.

It turns out that I was correct. When the rep pulled up the files, he said that the Enzymes are a fungal alpha amylase. This is a change that went into effect on August 1, and also applies to all-purpose and bakery flours, and also flours like Wondra. The rep then started asking me questions about their flours, and I ended up giving him a mini-tutorial on their flours. I got a kick out of that.

I guess the use of fungal amylase enzymes means that we can expect to see the change in other flours over time.

Peter

Thank you!  I really appreciate your answers to my questions and I got a kick out of you knowing way more than they did at Gold Medal.  Thank you for calling as I completely forgot.  I called back that night, but they were closed, and then I forgot.  I knew you would be right about them using fungal alpha amylase. I've been loving that tool and thank you for doing the calculations for me.  So I had some dough that I made using that other calculator, and I fixed the math a bit.  You are so right about using more dough as the middle was a bit thin on the 500g Giambatta pie, but the 560g cheese pie was better.  I used the Gold Medal Bread Flour and the La Spagnola Blended oil for these 7 day cold fermented doughs.  Keep in mind that I used 4% oil in them originally, but I have calculated below value at 5% for future doughs.  The dough calculations of the dough used tonight are as follows (adjusted for 5% oil):

[60%+5%=65% Effective, 500g Dough Ball] Giambatta pizza test, thin middle
Flour (100%):     299.27 g  |  10.56 oz | 0.66 lbs 
Water (60%):     179.56 g  |  6.33 oz | 0.4 lbs 
IDY (.20%):     0.6 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.2 tsp | 0.07 tbsp 
Salt (1.875%):     5.61 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.65 tsp | 0.55 tbsp 
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5%):     14.96 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.29 tsp | 1.1 tbsp 
Total (167.075%):    500 g | 17.64 oz | 1.1 lbs | TF = N/A

[65%+5%=65% Effective, 560g Dough Ball] Cheese pizza test, perfect
Flour (100%):     325.44 g  |  11.48 oz | 0.72 lbs 
Water (65%):     211.54 g  |  7.46 oz | 0.47 lbs 
IDY (.20%):     0.65 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.22 tsp | 0.07 tbsp 
Salt (1.875%):     6.1 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp 
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5%):     16.27 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.58 tsp | 1.19 tbsp 
Total (172.075%):    560 g | 19.75 oz | 1.23 lbs | TF = N/A

The Giambatta had a lot of burnt sauce on the edges due to me not wanting to soggy up the middle.  I'm still getting used to my flame guard and didn't want to rip the pie, so the first one burnt on one side.  The crumb on both were nice and light, and bready.  My oven didn't get very hot so I'll have to mess with the chimney and dampers in the colder weather here.  They only cooked around 400 degrees.  So I wonder if fungal alpha amylase vs. malted barley flour will have a taste difference.  The taste tests tonight tasted the same and parts that got brown had that malted and wheaty/grape nuts taste.  The caked on flour is getting closer and closer to PR due to the lower heat/flame guard.  Also 50/50 blend of a Pastene Ground Kitchen Ready can and water, with a bit of Italian Oregano and Romano Cheese added.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2018, 08:36:02 PM
Don't know if this will help or not, but these are the Nutrition Facts for the Empire whole milk mozzarella, and other related information.  Doesn't look like the Empire mozzarella is that high in fat content.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 30, 2018, 08:41:11 PM
Thank you Norma!  It definitely helps and I'm curious how those match up to my Great Lakes LMWMM bag from Market Basket.  Mine definitely needs butter added to get even close to PR taste.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2018, 08:47:21 PM
Thank you Norma!  It definitely helps and I'm curious how those match up to my Great Lakes LMWMM bag from Market Basket.  Mine definitely needs butter added to get even close to PR taste.

Pod4477,

You're very welcome!  I should be getting a sample of the Empire whole milk mozzarella at some point in time.  Maybe I will be able to taste if it has a more buttery taste than other mozzarella's, when baked on a pizza.  Let us know how the numbers compare to your Great Lakes LNWMM bag from Market Basket.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2018, 08:51:44 PM
Pod4477,

How do you feel about the comparison of your most recent pizzas with those from PR? To my eye, and having looked at a lot of photos of PR pizzas, yours look to fall into the same visual category.

I have not ever used a flour with fungal amylase so I do not know whether it will mean a different taste for the crust of the pizza. The only miller I can recall that uses fungal amylase is Grain Craft, formerly known as Pendleton Mills.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2018, 08:55:07 PM
This was my attempt at a Pizzeria Regina pizza today.  It sure doesn't look like their pizzas, the crust was very good and the dough was so nice to open.

Will have to do multiple posts because the photos are from. My cell.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2018, 08:57:44 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2018, 09:01:16 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2018, 09:04:47 PM
Don't know if this will help or not, but these are the Nutrition Facts for the Empire whole milk mozzarella, and other related information.  Doesn't look like the Empire mozzarella is that high in fat content.

Norma
Norma,

Thank you for posting the Nutrition Facts for the Empire whole milk mozzarella cheese. If you look at the nutritional information for that type of cheese as given at the NutritionSelfData website at https://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/26/2, you will see that the numbers line up pretty well with the ones you posted, after rounding. The Empire cheese has a bit more Sodium but perhaps not enough to make a difference on the palate. Maybe a bit saltier.

I like the looks of your recent efforts using a PR clone dough. It will be interesting to see whether the Empire cheese works well for you.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2018, 09:12:17 PM
Norma,

Thank you for posting the Nutrition Facts for the Empire whole milk mozzarella cheese. If you look at the nutritional information for that type of cheese as given at the NutritionSelfData website at https://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/26/2, you will see that the numbers line up pretty well with the ones you posted, after rounding. The Empire cheese has a bit more Sodium but perhaps not enough to make a difference on the palate.

I like the looks of your recent efforts using a PR clone dough. It will be interesting to see whether the Empire cheese works well for you.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for posting that the nutritional information numbers line up pretty well with the ones I posted, after rounding. 

Thanks also for saying you like the looks of the recent effort of a PR clone dough.  Yes, will have to see how the Empire cheese works.  The Saputo cheese sure didn't taste very much different than a lot of mozzarella's.  Did anyone every determine how much Empire cheese is put on a 16Ē or 17Ē PR dough?

In the information I was sent it said that one distributor near me carries the Empire whole milk mozzarella, but it is under the Great Lakes brand.  He said it was the same product as the Empire, just a label name difference.  Just goes to show one brand of mozzarella can be labeled something else.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 30, 2018, 09:16:05 PM
Peter,
Thank you! I thought the dough was very close and the sauce and cheese are very close as well.  I will have to try a side by side test next time, but I think I'm very close.  My oven wasn't getting up to 600 degrees tonight, but I enjoy a lighter dough.  Interesting how rare fungal amylase is.  I did notice my dough was on the yellow side.  Not sure if that was the flour or the oil, as the oil has beta carotene added for color.  Either way it was delicious and the 7 day cold ferment worked wonders. 

Norma,
Your PR clones look amazing!, and they look like PR to me.  I liked how you used the molds (I think that's what they are called) and the flatter part of picture  20181030_151932_Film4.jpg (138.01 kB, 2048x1058) looks exactly like PR.  Is that just something that happens from hands flattening the rim? I think your crust looks exactly like theirs.  Braintree may get darker on the bottom but I don't think that's something to aspire to, as the North End has a bottom crust that looks like yours, and usually mine.  The dough is definitely a breeze to open and I have learned that every PR doesn't look good, but yours looks like they should look.  I think your pie looks better and that's probably because you took the time to care for it, while most workers probably have to rush through the pies.  Interesting about the Empire/Great Lakes names.  I've asked PR and for a 16" pie they said they use 7oz cheese, but are instructed to use 10oz.  They said they are instructed to use 10oz sauce and 10oz cheese, but they are using 7oz sauce and 7oz cheese.  My pies above are using 7oz sauce and 6.5oz cheese.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2018, 09:40:28 PM


Norma,
Your PR clones look amazing!, and they look like PR to me.  I liked how you used the molds (I think that's what they are called) and the flatter part of picture  20181030_151932_Film4.jpg (138.01 kB, 2048x1058) looks exactly like PR.  Is that just something that happens from hands flattening the rim? I think your crust looks exactly like theirs.  Braintree may get darker on the bottom but I don't think that's something to aspire to, as the North End has a bottom crust that looks like yours, and usually mine.  The dough is definitely a breeze to open and I have learned that every PR doesn't look good, but yours looks like they should look.  I think your pie looks better and that's probably because you took the time to care for it, while most workers probably have to rush through the pies.  Interesting about the Empire/Great Lakes names.  I've asked PR and for a 16" pie they said they use 7oz cheese, but are instructed to use 10oz.  They said they are instructed to use 10oz sauce and 10oz cheese, but they are using 7oz sauce and 7oz cheese.  My pies above are using 7oz sauce and 6.5oz cheese.

Pod4477,

Thanks for liking my PR clone.  The dough mold does help to open a dough more evenly, before it is stretched by hand the rest of the way.  A lower hydration dough helps to get a smaller rim crust in some formulations.  I didn't do anything to flatten the rim, it just happened that way.  My regular rim crusts are bigger.  I did rush though this attempt, but since the dough was so easy to open it was easy.   

Thanks for telling me how much Empire mozzarella is used, or supposed to be used.  Also for the amount of sauce.  I used 9 ounces of mozzarella on my attempt and didn't think it was enough.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2018, 10:01:04 PM
Pod4477,

After I posted about the fungal amylase, I remembered reading about that form of amylase, and the bacterial form as well. I also remembered that I posted on this subject, so I did a search and found this post:

Reply 63 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34845.msg348438;topicseen#msg348438.

If you would like to read about other enzymes that can be used in baking, see:

http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_14ENZY.PDF

When I spoke with the GM rep today, I asked and was told that the only enzyme used in the GM bread flour is the fungal amylase. Whether that was an entirely correct answer remains to be seen and may have to await our becoming more familiar with flours using the fungal amylase and as more knowledge about such use becomes publicly available.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 31, 2018, 01:14:38 AM
Norma,
Np and thank you. I should get a dough mold to mess around with it, especially since I want to clone other doughs.  I wonder why sometimes the rims at PR look flatter.  I wonder if it has to do with how they open them or just lack of oven rise.  Their rims always seemed flat, but I think I get pretty close.  I tend to make bigger rims.  10oz is good if you like the cheesier type of pies.  I usually judge a cheese amount by whether or not I start to choke on it.  No joke.  Has anyone else had this happen when there's a lot of cheese on a pizza?  I also forgot to add that I did a 50/50 blend of Pastene Kitchen Ready Ground Tomatoes and Water, with a tiny amount of Italian Oregano and Romano Cheese added. 

Peter,
Thank you for the links!  Amylase reminds me of the Shinedown CD  :P Good point and I wonder if he was correct or not about only one enzyme being used, as you did notice it said "Enzymes." 

So I'm thinking about cloning the Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza this week, while I ferment some more PR clone doughs.  The closest Pizza Hut is now like 40-60 min away in Hyde Park :( Last time I was there I realized they are using a VERY sugary buffalo sauce and the crust was very plain, without the usual oil brushed on it.  I've had enough and I'm just going to make my own.  I wonder how the dough will differ compared to PR and I might as well ferment the PH dough balls too.  I'm assuming it may be similar to PJ or Dominos.  I remember reading a worker's comments about the string cheese mozzarella used in the stuffed crust being insanely salty, so I will have to try that again too.  I will make a new thread for the PH clone.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 31, 2018, 09:48:01 AM
Norma,
Np and thank you. I should get a dough mold to mess around with it, especially since I want to clone other doughs.  I wonder why sometimes the rims at PR look flatter.  I wonder if it has to do with how they open them or just lack of oven rise.  Their rims always seemed flat, but I think I get pretty close.  I tend to make bigger rims.  10oz is good if you like the cheesier type of pies.  I usually judge a cheese amount by whether or not I start to choke on it.  No joke.  Has anyone else had this happen when there's a lot of cheese on a pizza?  I also forgot to add that I did a 50/50 blend of Pastene Kitchen Ready Ground Tomatoes and Water, with a tiny amount of Italian Oregano and Romano Cheese added. 


Pod4477,

I am not sure why sometimes the rims at PR look flatter.  It probably is how they open them.  Lol about 10 oz. is good if someone likes the cheesier type of pizza.  Never had a slice of pizza that the cheese started to make me choke. Only had pizzas with mozzarella that got really really chewy after the pizza cooled down some. I sure don't like that kind of mozzarella. 

I purchased the dough mold at Marsal, after seeing that Road Pizza used them, but see it isn't offered there anymore.  Checked on the Custom Aluminum Pizza Mold for Sharro and it is unavailable too.  http://www.wasserstrom.com/restaurant-supplies-equipment/custom-aluminum-pizza-dough-mold-for-sbarro--11-119860  Since the manufacturer is Allied Spinning, maybe you could purchase on there if you want to try one.  Comment from Allied Spinning at the end of the link.

Hello, this product can be ordered directly through our web-site by adding the item to cart and proceeding to check-out. Or, our customer service department can be reached at 1-866-634-8927 for assistance with ordering. Thank you!

For me the dough mold is very helpful at times, if the dough is too gassy, or harder to open.  You can see though that the dough mold is 11Ē.  Even though the dough mold is made of aluminum it is heavy. 

The half Full Red w/basil/half Saporito with basil (water added), with pretty much added fresh dried Greek oregano and even fresh Pecornio Romano grated cheese added in great amounts, with a little salt sure fell flat in the taste department for a sauce in Steve's and my opinions.  It tasted almost like paste sauce with nothing added.  Usually if Pecorino Romano is added to a sauce in that amount it can be tasted.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on October 31, 2018, 12:38:48 PM
Pod4477,

I am not sure why sometimes the rims at PR look flatter.  It probably is how they open them.  Lol about 10 oz. is good if someone likes the cheesier type of pizza.  Never had a slice of pizza that the cheese started to make me choke. Only had pizzas with mozzarella that got really really chewy after the pizza cooled down some. I sure don't like that kind of mozzarella. 

I purchased the dough mold at Marsal, after seeing that Road Pizza used them, but see it isn't offered there anymore.  Checked on the Custom Aluminum Pizza Mold for Sharro and it is unavailable too.  http://www.wasserstrom.com/restaurant-supplies-equipment/custom-aluminum-pizza-dough-mold-for-sbarro--11-119860  Since the manufacturer is Allied Spinning, maybe you could purchase on there if you want to try one.  Comment from Allied Spinning at the end of the link.

Hello, this product can be ordered directly through our web-site by adding the item to cart and proceeding to check-out. Or, our customer service department can be reached at 1-866-634-8927 for assistance with ordering. Thank you!

For me the dough mold is very helpful at times, if the dough is too gassy, or harder to open.  You can see though that the dough mold is 11Ē.  Even though the dough mold is made of aluminum it is heavy. 

The half Full Red w/basil/half Saporito with basil (water added), with pretty much added fresh dried Greek oregano and even fresh Pecornio Romano grated cheese added in great amounts, with a little salt sure fell flat in the taste department for a sauce in Steve's and my opinions.  It tasted almost like paste sauce with nothing added.  Usually if Pecorino Romano is added to a sauce in that amount it can be tasted.

Norma

I do love a cheesy pie. Maybe itís just when the cheese cooled down a bit, but I noticed this only happens with a lot of cheese. Maybe a better way to describe it is that the cheese doesnít melt when I eat it, so it pools up in the mouth. Never happens with more of a NY slice. Thank you for the mold ordering info. I may have to order one! The sauce at Regina is definitely on the watery bland side. When I tasted it, the predominant flavor was water and oregano with some tomato taste. When I make my deep dish pizza, I drain all the water and get that concentrated tomato flavor. So I know what you mean about blandness. I do like the sauce when cooked on a PR pie as it is very light tasting tomato wide, but can be a bit bland.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: QwertyJuan on November 01, 2018, 12:06:18 PM
Can someone post me the "current" recipe that you've been able to recreate of the PR pizza dough? I would try it here at work and I would post a picture of the results if you'd like?
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on November 01, 2018, 01:34:29 PM
Can someone post me the "current" recipe that you've been able to recreate of the PR pizza dough? I would try it here at work and I would post a picture of the results if you'd like?

Definitely and thank you.  There are quite a lot of recipe's we've posted on here and I'm not sure which one is best, although Peter's are more professional than mine.  I'll post four of my closest clones to date.  I do want to add that this clone dough seems very close, but I'm not getting the same fermented smell of the soggy dough when I pick the sauce and cheese off of my slices.  I have to figure out why.  The smell is very unique and mine seems to be lacking this smell, but I believe the smell comes from the dough.  I got the same smell when making my Deep Dish dough and letting it ferment in the oven.

Note:  I have been using Gold Medal Bread Flour for these recipes and I have been playing around with the hydration a bit and dough ball size, so that is why there are 4.  But, for all 4 recipes I have mixed in a food processor.

1. dissolving salt into the water
2. adding the IDY into the flour
3.  adding the salt/water mixture into the flour/IDY mixture until a ball has formed (dough ball usually comes out wet, but still able to get into a bag)
4.  adding the blended oil and mixing for about 15 additional seconds.
5.  putting dough in a ziplock bag, and into the fridge for 3-7 days.
6.  I then put the dough ball in a plastic container, flatten it into a large flat disc, and dredge it with a ton of flour (optional but gives it the caked on flour that the North End has, and I've been told it's what they do over at that location)
7.  I usually put it in my oven's proof setting at 85 degrees for 1-2 hours.
8.  I press the gases out to the rim and open it by hand.  This dough always is extremely easy to open, so I make sure the middle or even outer edge doesn't get too thin.
9.  I usually bake around 400-600 degrees.  I feel this is key to PR as they always have lower heat than a Neapolitan, but around 500-600 degrees in the North End comes out perfect in my opinion.

Ingredients:
High-Gluten Flour or Bread Flour (will change the amount of water or oil needed)
Cold Water
IDY (I use SAF instant)
Salt (I use Kosher Mortans or Diamond Crystal)
Blended Oil (I now use the blended oil from La Spagnola which is a blend of vegetable and olive oil, but Cottonseed oil is the original way)

[60%+5%=65% Effective, 500g Dough Ball] 
Flour (100%):    299.27 g  |  10.56 oz | 0.66 lbs
Water (60%):    179.56 g  |  6.33 oz | 0.4 lbs
IDY (.20%):    0.6 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.2 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
Salt (1.875%):    5.61 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.65 tsp | 0.55 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5%):    14.96 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.29 tsp | 1.1 tbsp
Total (167.075%):   500 g | 17.64 oz | 1.1 lbs | TF = N/A 
 
[60%+5%=65% Effective, 560g Dough Ball]
Flour (100%):    335.18 g  |  11.82 oz | 0.74 lbs
Water (60%):    201.11 g  |  7.09 oz | 0.44 lbs
IDY (.20%):    0.67 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.22 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
Salt (1.875%):    6.28 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.85 tsp | 0.62 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5%):    16.76 g | 0.59 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.69 tsp | 1.23 tbsp
Total (167.075%):   560 g | 19.75 oz | 1.23 lbs | TF = N/A
 
[65%+5%=70% Effective, 560g Dough Ball]
Flour (100%):    325.44 g  |  11.48 oz | 0.72 lbs
Water (65%):    211.54 g  |  7.46 oz | 0.47 lbs
IDY (.20%):    0.65 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.22 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
Salt (1.875%):    6.1 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5%):    16.27 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.58 tsp | 1.19 tbsp
Total (172.075%):   560 g | 19.75 oz | 1.23 lbs | TF = N/A
 
[65%+5%=70% Effective, 500g Dough Ball] 
Flour (100%):    290.57 g  |  10.25 oz | 0.64 lbs
Water (65%):    188.87 g  |  6.66 oz | 0.42 lbs
IDY (.20%):    0.58 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.19 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
Salt (1.875%):    5.45 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.6 tsp | 0.53 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5%):    14.53 g | 0.51 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.2 tsp | 1.07 tbsp
Total (172.075%):   500 g | 17.64 oz | 1.1 lbs | TF = N/A 
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 01, 2018, 01:42:53 PM
Poid4477,

Can you tell us which type of salt you used in each of the four PR clone dough formulations you used? The weight numbers are the same but the volume conversions are different for the two forms of Kosher salt.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on November 01, 2018, 01:56:03 PM
Poid4477,

Can you tell us which type of salt you used in each of the four PR clone dough formulations you used? The weight numbers are the same but the volume conversions are different for the two forms of Kosher salt.

Peter

Sorry, I forgot that I changed it to Diamond Crystal on 2 of those, but two still may have had the Mortons.  I updated so all 4 have Diamond Crystal Kosher salt.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: QwertyJuan on November 01, 2018, 03:24:23 PM
Definitely and thank you.  There are quite a lot of recipe's we've posted on here and I'm not sure which one is best, although Peter's are more professional than mine.  I'll post four of my closest clones to date.  I do want to add that this clone dough seems very close, but I'm not getting the same fermented smell of the soggy dough when I pick the sauce and cheese off of my slices.  I have to figure out why.  The smell is very unique and mine seems to be lacking this smell, but I believe the smell comes from the dough.  I got the same smell when making my Deep Dish dough and letting it ferment in the oven.

Note:  I have been using Gold Medal Bread Flour for these recipes and I have been playing around with the hydration a bit and dough ball size, so that is why there are 4.  But, for all 4 recipes I have mixed in a food processor.

1. dissolving salt into the water
2. adding the IDY into the flour
3.  adding the salt/water mixture into the flour/IDY mixture until a ball has formed (dough ball usually comes out wet, but still able to get into a bag)
4.  adding the blended oil and mixing for about 15 additional seconds.
5.  putting dough in a ziplock bag, and into the fridge for 3-7 days.
6.  I then put the dough ball in a plastic container, flatten it into a large flat disc, and dredge it with a ton of flour (optional but gives it the caked on flour that the North End has, and I've been told it's what they do over at that location)
7.  I usually put it in my oven's proof setting at 85 degrees for 1-2 hours.
8.  I press the gases out to the rim and open it by hand.  This dough always is extremely easy to open, so I make sure the middle or even outer edge doesn't get too thin.
9.  I usually bake around 400-600 degrees.  I feel this is key to PR as they always have lower heat than a Neapolitan, but around 500-600 degrees in the North End comes out perfect in my opinion.

Ingredients:
High-Gluten Flour or Bread Flour (will change the amount of water or oil needed)
Cold Water
IDY (I use SAF instant)
Salt (I use Kosher Mortans or Diamond Crystal)
Blended Oil (I now use the blended oil from La Spagnola which is a blend of vegetable and olive oil, but Cottonseed oil is the original way)

[60%+5%=65% Effective, 500g Dough Ball] 
Flour (100%):    299.27 g  |  10.56 oz | 0.66 lbs
Water (60%):    179.56 g  |  6.33 oz | 0.4 lbs
IDY (.20%):    0.6 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.2 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
Salt (1.875%):    5.61 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.65 tsp | 0.55 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5%):    14.96 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.29 tsp | 1.1 tbsp
Total (167.075%):   500 g | 17.64 oz | 1.1 lbs | TF = N/A 
 
[60%+5%=65% Effective, 560g Dough Ball]
Flour (100%):    335.18 g  |  11.82 oz | 0.74 lbs
Water (60%):    201.11 g  |  7.09 oz | 0.44 lbs
IDY (.20%):    0.67 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.22 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
Salt (1.875%):    6.28 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.85 tsp | 0.62 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5%):    16.76 g | 0.59 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.69 tsp | 1.23 tbsp
Total (167.075%):   560 g | 19.75 oz | 1.23 lbs | TF = N/A
 
[65%+5%=70% Effective, 560g Dough Ball]
Flour (100%):    325.44 g  |  11.48 oz | 0.72 lbs
Water (65%):    211.54 g  |  7.46 oz | 0.47 lbs
IDY (.20%):    0.65 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.22 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
Salt (1.875%):    6.1 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5%):    16.27 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.58 tsp | 1.19 tbsp
Total (172.075%):   560 g | 19.75 oz | 1.23 lbs | TF = N/A
 
[65%+5%=70% Effective, 500g Dough Ball] 
Flour (100%):    290.57 g  |  10.25 oz | 0.64 lbs
Water (65%):    188.87 g  |  6.66 oz | 0.42 lbs
IDY (.20%):    0.58 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.19 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
Salt (1.875%):    5.45 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.6 tsp | 0.53 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5%):    14.53 g | 0.51 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.2 tsp | 1.07 tbsp
Total (172.075%):   500 g | 17.64 oz | 1.1 lbs | TF = N/A

My oven currently runs at 550, so I won't have to change a thing in order to try your dough. In all honesty it's pretty similar what I'm currently making here at work, other than the excessive amount of oil used. Will make a ball and let it ferment for a few days and see what happens! :D
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on November 01, 2018, 07:47:20 PM
My oven currently runs at 550, so I won't have to change a thing in order to try your dough. In all honesty it's pretty similar what I'm currently making here at work, other than the excessive amount of oil used. Will make a ball and let it ferment for a few days and see what happens! :D

haha I feel that are using a lot of oil and pizza shark had mentioned this portion I believe. You can also try 4% oil as that is what I sometimes use, but 5% is good.  Ya 550 is what my Ooni cooks at a lot of the time.  The thing about PR is that it's not really NY style and it's not Neapolitan.  Braintree is closer to NY style but the North End location is cooking with their nice dry oven around 600 degrees and I think that is why people keep coming back.  I've found 485 degrees is what Braintree PR uses and around 600 is what the North End location uses.  Braintree comes out crispier and super brown on the rim and bottom, and the pizza has zero flop a lot of the time.  The North End location comes out closer to a Neapolitan than a NY pizza, as the rim is not brown, but rather light with some crunch.  The bottom crust in the North End pies are not brown, but rather light colored with bubbles.  Since the North End cooks a couple of minutes quicker I always consider it to be inbetween Neapolitan and NY, but not really either.  Makes sense since 600 degrees is kind of in the middle of 500 and 700-800 for Neapolitan.  I'm excited to see your results and 3-7 days fridge ferment is awesome.  The manager at PR wants me to bring in a slice for him to try.  Doing testing today of the crust, I feel mine is very very close.  I think the 65% and the 70% effective hydration doughs I posted above are very close, and PR may even be a bit on the dryer side.  Still not sure why their soggy dough smells more fermented under the sauce and cheese.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 01, 2018, 07:57:52 PM
Pod4477,

I forgot to ask you why you went to 560 gram dough balls. And since you did not use a bowl residue compensation, did you end up with dough balls that weighed less than the calculated values?

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on November 01, 2018, 08:34:09 PM
Pod4477,

I forgot to ask you why you went to 560 gram dough balls. And since you did not use a bowl residue compensation, did you end up with dough balls that weighed less than the calculated values?

Peter

I forgot to mentioned why I did use 560g dough balls haha.  I use 560g when making extremely heavy topping pies.  500g has seemed very good for the cheese pizzas, but just to prevent ripping, I upped the dough weight a bit.  Since I made so many different doughs, I figured I'd list all 4 of them here.  It's not the best way to do it, and I should just make one dough size when testing, but I usually make one 16" Giambatta and one 16" Cheese for the family. 

I have a theory that PR is using either the same dough ball size for their 10" and 16" pies in the North End, or similar dough ball size.  When getting a 10" pie at the Medford location, I noticed it was very thin and more like a 150g dough ball size.  When I get a 10" in the North End, the amount of dough on the rim and middle is excessive and much more than Medford's 10" pizza.  At the North End location, it's almost like they just take a 16" dough disc and press it down a bit, and then they barely open it, if at all.  I feel that it probably ends up looking like a much doughier Neapolitan without the final stretch, making it stay around 10".  I could be wrong but I have a feeling they are doing that since their 10" pizzas end up looking like bread bowls :P. I ended up with very similar weights because I scrape out almost every bit of dough in the food processor.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: QwertyJuan on November 01, 2018, 09:55:19 PM
I've actually eaten at the North location before... the bottom of my pizza was NOT light brown... matter of fact it was almost black. It was still edible but it was not light brown!  :-D

I wish I would have taken a picture of it so you could see... it ALMOST looked to me like something else was on the oven floor (like sauce or oil or something) and the pizza was thrown in on top of it...

My dough ball is made and in the fridge(I did the 500g, 65% hydration version)... I will try to make a pizza with it on Monday... that will give me a 4 day ferment. I will post a picture at that time to see how it compares with PR! :D
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on November 02, 2018, 05:49:16 PM
I've actually eaten at the North location before... the bottom of my pizza was NOT light brown... matter of fact it was almost black. It was still edible but it was not light brown!  :-D

I wish I would have taken a picture of it so you could see... it ALMOST looked to me like something else was on the oven floor (like sauce or oil or something) and the pizza was thrown in on top of it...

My dough ball is made and in the fridge(I did the 500g, 65% hydration version)... I will try to make a pizza with it on Monday... that will give me a 4 day ferment. I will post a picture at that time to see how it compares with PR! :D

Oh wow thatís not good! I wouldnít doubt that it may have been sauce. I remember reading (I believe from Pizzashark) about PR having to throw away ripped pizzas and clean the oven because new workers werenít yet skilled in the operation. I wonder if the oven was messy from cheese/dough or semolina and they didnít clean it. I have 2 North End slices from August that I keep for visual reference, and the bottoms are a very light brown, but no where near as microblostered and crispy brown as Braintree. The North End bottoms come out a lot like my pies. I feel that in the North End, they are so busy that they have to be so insanely quick, that quality can be tough. Itís delicious every time though, so I canít complain. The workers are nice to me and they always get a me a table to myself for a 16Ē pie or two.

Iím excited to see your pie. I like 500g a lot, as it makes a good 16Ē pie with a good size rim, and 65% seems pretty close to me. What kind of flour did you use?
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 02, 2018, 06:58:30 PM
Pod4477,

More than once, Anthony or his associates would say that when the pizza is brown it is cooking. When the pizza looks black, it is done. This is what Anthony said in his podcast interview at 7:53 at https://www.spreaker.com/user/fooddrinktravel/food-drink-travel-episode-21. He and others also said that they ask diners how they would like their pizzas cooked and they prepare the pizzas to their diners' wishes. My suspicion is that they went to that approach because too many pizzas were overcooked and sent back by diners.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: QwertyJuan on November 02, 2018, 10:31:32 PM
Oh wow thatís not good! I wouldnít doubt that it may have been sauce. I remember reading (I believe from Pizzashark) about PR having to throw away ripped pizzas and clean the oven because new workers werenít yet skilled in the operation. I wonder if the oven was messy from cheese/dough or semolina and they didnít clean it. I have 2 North End slices from August that I keep for visual reference, and the bottoms are a very light brown, but no where near as microblostered and crispy brown as Braintree. The North End bottoms come out a lot like my pies. I feel that in the North End, they are so busy that they have to be so insanely quick, that quality can be tough. Itís delicious every time though, so I canít complain. The workers are nice to me and they always get a me a table to myself for a 16Ē pie or two.

Iím excited to see your pie. I like 500g a lot, as it makes a good 16Ē pie with a good size rim, and 65% seems pretty close to me. What kind of flour did you use?

I used the best baker's flour I can get my hand's on here in Canada ;) and I've tried many different ones.

https://cms.ardentmills.ca/uploads/spec-sheets/en/10597_ArdentMills_SpecSheet.pdf
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on November 03, 2018, 02:20:10 PM
Peter,
I always tell my family this phrase when I under or overcook my pies :-D. I never thought of it coming from so many overcooked pizzas and that is a very good suspicion.  I bet it is from that and in the North End you see most of them come out pretty dark.  Interestingly enough I have my own suspicion over the years about the slices in the North End.  They are always way undercooked.  I believe this is from them purposefully undercooking them so then when they heat them up they don't get overcooked.  It's amazing to see a slice vs a whole pie there on average.  I couldn't believe the difference in texture and color from just leaving it in longer.

QwertyJuan,
Very nice looking flour and I noticed they are using amylase, as my Gold Medal Bread Flour is using fungal amylase.  Speaking of Canada, I eat a lot of pizza during hockey/Bruins games.  Pretty much during every sport here I eat pizza ;D. I got pretty close cloning a local sub shops buffalo chicken pizza, but I think with this PR dough it would come out even better.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pizza Shark on November 04, 2018, 07:19:50 PM
Pod4477,

More than once, Anthony or his associates would say that when the pizza is brown it is cooking. When the pizza looks black, it is done. This is what Anthony said in his podcast interview at 7:53 at https://www.spreaker.com/user/fooddrinktravel/food-drink-travel-episode-21. He and others also said that they ask diners how they would like their pizzas cooked and they prepare the pizzas to their diners' wishes. My suspicion is that they went to that approach because too many pizzas were overcooked and sent back by diners.

Peter

Yeah, the original North End location had that ANCIENT gas fired oven that started it all and I assume it still has that oven.  I don't know what temp that oven baked at as I never worked on that sacred ground.  My sense is it was hotter than the 550 degree standard that all sister locations baked at... Probably more in the 650 degree range that North End location.  Hotter than that and there would have been problems with crusts totally scorched to blackness and toppings not fully baked given time to bake.  Anyway, in the North End everyone knew what a PR pizza was about (it was expected to display a good deal of char).  Then, PR expanded to multiple locations that really could deliver the same bake with Montague brick deck ovens capable of maintaining a constant 700-750 degrees or something (these were the most expensive deck ovens $ could buy back then and I think they still are) but I think PR realized those North End customers didn't represent the masses in the greater region that PR was expanding into so they had to adapt.  Pizzas got sent back all the time claiming they were burned.  So, the standard char bake was changed at all secondary locations to eliminate the char and the customer was to be asked if they wanted the pie "regular" or "well done" (or something to that effect).  I would also guess the ovens they purchased that could deliver such high heat were all dialed back to the standard 550 that we ended up baking in at multiple locations.  Those who knew what an authentic North End bake was about would always order it "well done" and those who didn't would be happy with what they were commonly used to from other establishments in their area that didn't deliver the char. 

Quite frankly, with the resurgence in demand for authentic, rustic, old-school baking in an age of millennials and a public at large that is looking for something more and something different, I say PR should not be afraid to crank up their oven temps at all their locations (they have the ovens to do it) and start delivering that great North End bake throughout their footprint.  For those who want some kind of perfect golden brown common crust, Pizza Hut and a whole lot of other chains are there to deliver it as can the frozen pizza section of the local grocery store.     
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on November 05, 2018, 01:54:58 AM
Yeah, the original North End location had that ANCIENT gas fired oven that started it all and I assume it still has that oven.  I don't know what temp that oven baked at as I never worked on that sacred ground.  My sense is it was hotter than the 550 degree standard that all sister locations baked at... Probably more in the 650 degree range that North End location.  Hotter than that and there would have been problems with crusts totally scorched to blackness and toppings not fully baked given time to bake.  Anyway, in the North End everyone knew what a PR pizza was about (it was expected to display a good deal of char).  Then, PR expanded to multiple locations that really could deliver the same bake with Montague brick deck ovens capable of maintaining a constant 700-750 degrees or something (these were the most expensive deck ovens $ could buy back then and I think they still are) but I think PR realized those North End customers didn't represent the masses in the greater region that PR was expanding into so they had to adapt.  Pizzas got sent back all the time claiming they were burned.  So, the standard char bake was changed at all secondary locations to eliminate the char and the customer was to be asked if they wanted the pie "regular" or "well done" (or something to that effect).  I would also guess the ovens they purchased that could deliver such high heat were all dialed back to the standard 550 that we ended up baking in at multiple locations.  Those who knew what an authentic North End bake was about would always order it "well done" and those who didn't would be happy with what they were commonly used to from other establishments in their area that didn't deliver the char. 

Quite frankly, with the resurgence in demand for authentic, rustic, old-school baking in an age of millennials and a public at large that is looking for something more and something different, I say PR should not be afraid to crank up their oven temps at all their locations (they have the ovens to do it) and start delivering that great North End bake throughout their footprint.  For those who want some kind of perfect golden brown common crust, Pizza Hut and a whole lot of other chains are there to deliver it as can the frozen pizza section of the local grocery store.   

Very interesting information, thank you!  I didn't know the origins of the well done requests.  I enjoy the char, but I also enjoy lighter baked crusts.  My preference changes daily, but I do think using a hotter oven is awesome for crust.  I didn't think of the Montague ovens maintaining 700-750 degrees but are dialed back.  I saw that the Braintree location is set to 485 degrees and the workers there have verified this.  When I spoke to the workers, they basically said that they cook lower as to now darken or burn the crust.  They strive for an almond color, they told me.  I noticed the oven does go up to 486 degrees at times.  The digital temp display is on the front of the oven.  I do think for this style of pie, a darker crust is preferred, but sometimes I like almost raw.  I like different crusts on different days, but I agree with you.  I will say, the Maillard reaction is strong with the Braintree location, so the crust ends up tasting like cereal compared to the North End location's pies.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: QwertyJuan on November 05, 2018, 03:04:15 PM
Here is how my SD442 @ 550 made out cooking your crust... ;)

A bit more pale than my pizzas normally are... BUT working with this dough, I could tell that is what starting to die... just after 4 days. I think it would need some sugar to go much further at normal fridge temps. Maybe if I could keep it down around 32 maybe... but at 38-39 I really think that a bit of sugar would have helped.

FWIW, it wasn't any better than my current dough (3 employees that tried said it tasted the same as my normal crust (which is pretty much the same except less oil...) and my dough is usually only 24-48 hours old. None of them could tell any difference on the extra 2-3 days cold fermentation. I could smell the difference while I was stretching the dough but not really after the bake...  I'm pretty sure PR is doing something else secretive that we don't know about... like I said I ate there before and there was a definite distinct taste to their dough that this didn't have.

Also... you can't see in the pic, but there was definitely some small black spots in the dough as you've mentioned before. Not sure if it's yeast dying as they say, or what... but definitely little black specks.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on November 05, 2018, 09:39:23 PM
Here is how my SD442 @ 550 made out cooking your crust... ;)

A bit more pale than my pizzas normally are... BUT working with this dough, I could tell that is what starting to die... just after 4 days. I think it would need some sugar to go much further at normal fridge temps. Maybe if I could keep it down around 32 maybe... but at 38-39 I really think that a bit of sugar would have helped.

FWIW, it wasn't any better than my current dough (3 employees that tried said it tasted the same as my normal crust (which is pretty much the same except less oil...) and my dough is usually only 24-48 hours old. None of them could tell any difference on the extra 2-3 days cold fermentation. I could smell the difference while I was stretching the dough but not really after the bake...  I'm pretty sure PR is doing something else secretive that we don't know about... like I said I ate there before and there was a definite distinct taste to their dough that this didn't have.

Also... you can't see in the pic, but there was definitely some small black spots in the dough as you've mentioned before. Not sure if it's yeast dying as they say, or what... but definitely little black specks.

The pizza looks awesome! Haha you sound like me saying there must be something secretive they are doing. I still wonder about this, but my latest attempt I feel is very close. Iím not sure if itís the La Spagnola oil compared to the cottonseed I used to use or something else. Funny thing is, when I tasted the crumb of PR it wasnít really anything out of the ordinary taste wise. I bet the reason this dough is similar to your normal dough is perhaps because PRís dough isnít anything out of the ordinary, and your dough was already good. Maybe they are doing something special that we donít know about, but I believe PR has talked about their yeast dying during the 3-7 days causing the black spots. Using sugar is probably a good idea though.

Also, the rich enchanced butter taste of the cheese usually gets all over the crust, so make sure to order a sauce only pie for testing, and I suggest doing a side by side comparison like pizzashark mentioned. Thatís what I started to do, and when I did a side by side last week, mine was very close. Also, if you are at the locations other than the North End, their low temps and long bake times are causing a ton of browning of the crust which results in a lot of added wheat/cereal taste. You did get browning so maybe it wonít make a difference, but the wheat taste is what I first ventured to find out about. Mine still had some wheat taste though last week and was close to what the North End is like. Itís important to note that their crust is still awesome whether itís lightly cooked or when itís cooked longer/very brown and crusty. I think this is just because itís properly fermented, but it could be something else added that we donít know about.

One other thing that still puzzles me is the distinct smell of the soggy dough under the cheese and sauce. I believe this is from the 3-7 day fermented dough remaining almost still kind of raw, and therefore we still can smell the fermentation. Mine had a similar smell last time though, but I donít know if itís close enough yet. I believe if there is a secret about their dough, it probably has to do with either different yeast or fermentation. Pizzashark hasnít alluded to anything out of the ordinary though. Last week I got a similar smell of PR when I oven proofed some deep dish dough of 33% oil. Maybe itís the oil and yeast Iím smelling at PR.

Also, I have a few questions for you guys regarding mixing process.  Peter and I have discussed this, but I forgot to ask some questions.  As you probably know, I have been using a food processor for this dough, as I've read the oxidation of small batches of dough in a stand mixer can affect taste.  Not sure how true this is, but the food processor has had good results.  I just hope my cold water doesn't negatively affect the IDY, but to counteract this, I started adding the IDY into the flour, as Tom "The Dough Doctor" Lehmann has said to do.  I usually mix until a smooth ball and let the fermentation do its thing.  The thing is: I usually add flour in the bowl first with the IDY, and then add my salt to the flour or dissolve salt into the water, and then I add water little by little.  I seem to do it backwards, and I should probably just do as Lehmann said and put all water in the bowl, followed by flour, and then IDY and salt on top of the flour.  I did it the backwards way because I figure flour is the 100% value, so I like to always have that as a set weight and then limit how much water is added depending on humidity.  I now add oil in only after a ball is formed.  So three questions:

1.  Do you think the salt blends more evenly when added directly on top of the flour or dissolved into the water?
2.  Is it better to add water into the flour, or adding flour into the water?
3.  When I add IDY on top of my flour, does the cold water I'm using impact the yeast in a negative way?  I have read to not rehydrate IDY with cold water, so I wonder if I should rehydrate the IDY with warm water and then add that mixture to cold water, and then mix the yeasty water into the food processor full of flour and salt, and then add oil.  The way I have been doing it has seemed fine though and the yeast seemed to work fine.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 06, 2018, 10:23:53 AM
Also, I have a few questions for you guys regarding mixing process.  Peter and I have discussed this, but I forgot to ask some questions.  As you probably know, I have been using a food processor for this dough, as I've read the oxidation of small batches of dough in a stand mixer can affect taste.  Not sure how true this is, but the food processor has had good results.  I just hope my cold water doesn't negatively affect the IDY, but to counteract this, I started adding the IDY into the flour, as Tom "The Dough Doctor" Lehmann has said to do.  I usually mix until a smooth ball and let the fermentation do its thing.  The thing is: I usually add flour in the bowl first with the IDY, and then add my salt to the flour or dissolve salt into the water, and then I add water little by little.  I seem to do it backwards, and I should probably just do as Lehmann said and put all water in the bowl, followed by flour, and then IDY and salt on top of the flour.  I did it the backwards way because I figure flour is the 100% value, so I like to always have that as a set weight and then limit how much water is added depending on humidity.  I now add oil in only after a ball is formed.  So three questions:

1.  Do you think the salt blends more evenly when added directly on top of the flour or dissolved into the water?
2.  Is it better to add water into the flour, or adding flour into the water?
3.  When I add IDY on top of my flour, does the cold water I'm using impact the yeast in a negative way?  I have read to not rehydrate IDY with cold water, so I wonder if I should rehydrate the IDY with warm water and then add that mixture to cold water, and then mix the yeasty water into the food processor full of flour and salt, and then add oil.  The way I have been doing it has seemed fine though and the yeast seemed to work fine.

Thanks!

Pod4477,

I think you are fine doing things the way that you are now doing. Tom's method is for a stand mixer. But when using a food processor, it is better to add the water to the flour. And you want to keep the water temperature on the low side, as you are also doing, to offset the high level of heat produced by the food processor. Otherwise, your finished dough temperature, which is very important in your case, may be too high. As for the salt, unless you are using a salt that has a large particle size, you should just be able to add the salt dry to the flour. If you'd like, you can add the salt to the flour in the bowl and pulse for a few seconds to combine. You can do likewise with the yeast if the yeast is IDY and does not need prehydrating in a bit of warm water, as would be the case with ADY. With fresh yeast, which already includes a large amount of water, you can put that on top of the flour and add the water, even cold water, without harming the fresh yeast. With oil, you can use the delayed incorporation method that Tom advocates for many dough formulations.

For background purposes, you might want to take a look at these two threads that relate to the use of food processors:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2189.msg19289#msg19289, and

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12877.msg125013#msg125013

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on November 06, 2018, 02:29:42 PM
Pod4477,

I think you are fine doing things the way that you are now doing. Tom's method is for a stand mixer. But when using a food processor, it is better to add the water to the flour. And you want to keep the water temperature on the low side, as you are also doing, to offset the high level of heat produced by the food processor. Otherwise, your finished dough temperature, which is very important in your case, may be too high. As for the salt, unless you are using a salt that has a large particle size, you should just be able to add the salt dry to the flour. If you'd like, you can add the salt to the flour in the bowl and pulse for a few seconds to combine. You can do likewise with the yeast if the yeast is IDY and does not need prehydrating in a bit of warm water, as would be the case with ADY. With fresh yeast, which already includes a large amount of water, you can put that on top of the flour and add the water, even cold water, without harming the fresh yeast. With oil, you can use the delayed incorporation method that Tom advocates for many dough formulations.

For background purposes, you might want to take a look at these two threads that relate to the use of food processors:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2189.msg19289#msg19289, and

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12877.msg125013#msg125013

Peter

Thank you very much for the info and links. I forgot that I usually do pulse the IDY into the flour. Iíve been using the kosher diamond crystal the past week, so I wonder if this is too big to pulse into the flour or not. I usually like using the fine, but they have so many anti-caking agents.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 06, 2018, 04:54:30 PM
Thank you very much for the info and links. I forgot that I usually do pulse the IDY into the flour. Iíve been using the kosher diamond crystal the past week, so I wonder if this is too big to pulse into the flour or not. I usually like using the fine, but they have so many anti-caking agents.

Pod4477,

I haven't checked recently but in the past I have not been able to find the Diamond Crystal Kosher salt in the stores near me. So, I don't have any experience with that salt. However, when I was determining the conversion factors to use in the dough calculating tools, one teaspoon of the Diamond Crystal salt weighed about 0.12 ounces. By comparison, for regular salt, I settled on a teaspoon weighing about 0.20 ounces. So, the Diamond Crystal salt is coarser. Other members may be able to shed some light on how to handle the Diamond Crystal salt, but if you are concerned, you can dissolve it in the water.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: QwertyJuan on November 06, 2018, 07:08:32 PM
Pod4477,

I haven't checked recently but in the past I have not been able to find the Diamond Crystal Kosher salt in the stores near me. So, I don't have any experience with that salt. However, when I was determining the conversion factors to use in the dough calculating tools, one teaspoon of the Diamond Crystal salt weighed about 0.12 ounces. By comparison, for regular salt, I settled on a teaspoon weighing about 0.20 ounces. So, the Diamond Crystal salt is coarser. Other members may be able to shed some light on how to handle the Diamond Crystal salt, but if you are concerned, you can dissolve it in the water.

Peter

Or... the best advice... use a scale! :D
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on November 06, 2018, 08:05:32 PM
Thank you Peter and QwertyJuan,
I have a gram scale that I use for salt and yeast, so I could use that, but I trust your calculations Peter.  I feel that for courser salt, it seems best to dissolve.  I do it when I make a brine after all :). A few pics below of mine vs North End PR after a week (mine) and 3 months (PR).  Theirs is darker on the rim and bottom.  Note: my Ooni wasnít going above 400 so thatís why my bottom crust was really light that day.  Also, if the hoodie looks familiar, itís a Ramen Chicken Noodle a soup one  :P accompanied by the Pizza Hut boxes from my other clone tests today.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: foreplease on November 06, 2018, 11:52:08 PM
Pod4477,

I haven't checked recently but in the past I have not been able to find the Diamond Crystal Kosher salt in the stores near me. So, I don't have any experience with that salt. However, when I was determining the conversion factors to use in the dough calculating tools, one teaspoon of the Diamond Crystal salt weighed about 0.12 ounces. By comparison, for regular salt, I settled on a teaspoon weighing about 0.20 ounces. So, the Diamond Crystal salt is coarser. Other members may be able to shed some light on how to handle the Diamond Crystal salt, but if you are concerned, you can dissolve it in the water.

Peter


First bit of advice is donít live near Lake Peigneur near where they mine it in Louisiana!


HOW DRILLING A 14 INCH HOLE ACCIDENTALLY CREATED A 1,300-FOOT DEEP SALTWATER LAKE OUT OF A FORMERLY 10-FOOT DEEP FRESHWATER ONE


http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/06/ecological-disaster-turned-freshwater-lake-saltwater-crater/ (http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/06/ecological-disaster-turned-freshwater-lake-saltwater-crater/)

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on November 07, 2018, 02:48:19 PM

First bit of advice is donít live near Lake Peigneur near where they mine it in Louisiana!


HOW DRILLING A 14 INCH HOLE ACCIDENTALLY CREATED A 1,300-FOOT DEEP SALTWATER LAKE OUT OF A FORMERLY 10-FOOT DEEP FRESHWATER ONE


http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/06/ecological-disaster-turned-freshwater-lake-saltwater-crater/ (http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/06/ecological-disaster-turned-freshwater-lake-saltwater-crater/)



Good advice! "Docks, another drilling platform, a 70 acre island in the middle of the lake, eleven barges, vehicles, trees and a parking lot near the lake were all sucked into the mine below. The pull of the whirlpool was so strong that it reversed the flow of the 12-mile-long Delcambre Canal that drained the lake into the Gulf of Mexico."  Well I won't ever think the same way again when purchasing Diamond Crystal salt.  Sad about the dogs and ecosystem, and I figured there would be human casualties, but luckily not.  That's an insane story and I didn't even realize something like that could happen.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on November 07, 2018, 09:21:32 PM
Iím wondering if PR is using more oil than I prevously thought, and maybe this is leading to the improved flavor along with the 3-7 day cold ferment. I think the latest recipe on here is very close though.  Their crumb is just so soft and I think the amount of oil may be why.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: QwertyJuan on November 07, 2018, 10:38:08 PM
Is it that or are they maybe using a mixture of AP and Bread flours??  ???
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on November 08, 2018, 01:44:10 AM
They could be, but the chef at PR headquarters told me itís a high-gluten bromated flour. Although, now Iím using a bread flour and the results are very close. I do have another question for you guys about using my KA stand mixer with higher hydration doughs. Iím making a Jimmy Johnís bread dough and itís quite high effective hydration dough.  Unlike the Pizza Hit clone dough, this dough just doesnít seem to get smooth at all from using the dough hook on the mixer. I did the exact same method as the PH dough, and this higher hydration dough just doesnít seem to get smooth. It has definite gluten formation, but still a bit tacky or rough looking. This relates to my PR doughs just for the fact that I may do some in my mixer. Are really high effective hydration doughs supposed to stay rough after kneading?  I mix on speed 2 only, which is recommended as the only speed in the manual. Iíve read to go higher or lower, but donít want to risk anything. Ive also tried giving it 5 minute breaks and flipping the dough over with a bowl scraper. Thanks!

My recipe is:
ē 1 cup warm water (236g) (110 degrees F) [69%]
ē 1 1/2 tablespoon yeast (Use 15g fresh) [4.4%] or 5g-5.56g IDY [1.47%-1.6%] or try .918g IDY [.27%]
ē 1 tablespoon sugar (14g) [4%]
ē 2 tsp dry milk (5-6g) [1.4%-1.7%]
ē 1 1/2 teaspoon salt (use 1 tsp or 7g) [2%]
ē 4 tablespoons (54g) vegetable oil [15%]
2 1/2 to 2 3/4 cups all-purpose flour (Use bread flour 340g) [100%]
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: foreplease on November 08, 2018, 07:30:52 AM
How confident and attached to that recipe are you? Were there pictures with it? I donít think the KA mixer is part of the problem. I think it is way too wet but adding flour or reducimg water would make it not this recipe.


Two things you could try without changing the ingredients or amounts:
-Use only a small amount of warm water to bloom the yeast and use cold water for the rest
-After doing the above withhold the oil until everything else is well incorporated. See if the dough at this stage comes together any better, then add the oil and mix in well, see if there is any difference to the pics you posted


If still unacceptable try shortening in place of oil and add with other ingredients rather than at the end. More flour, less water. Itís a high amount of yeast but not part of your problem at this stage.


Edit: if someone gave me that recope to try I would use 391g flour as the top end. I use 142g/cup. Iím in the minority here on that.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2018, 09:48:59 AM
Received the Empire mozzarella this morning.  It was well packed and cold when it arrived. Weight is 11 lbs.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norcoscia on November 08, 2018, 10:01:07 AM
Norma - is the cheese that buttery yellow or is that just the outside of the package?
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2018, 10:14:53 AM
Norma - is the cheese that buttery yellow or is that just the outside of the package?

Norm

It might be a little more yellow than the Saputo mozzarella but am not sure.  Can take a photo of both mozzarella's side by side when I go to market today. That is if you want me to do that.  Took a photo outside of the Empire.  It doesn't look as yellow.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norcoscia on November 08, 2018, 10:25:44 AM
It will be interesting to see how you like it!
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 08, 2018, 11:09:07 AM
I do have another question for you guys about using my KA stand mixer with higher hydration doughs. Iím making a Jimmy Johnís bread dough and itís quite high effective hydration dough.  Unlike the Pizza Hit clone dough, this dough just doesnít seem to get smooth at all from using the dough hook on the mixer. I did the exact same method as the PH dough, and this higher hydration dough just doesnít seem to get smooth. It has definite gluten formation, but still a bit tacky or rough looking. This relates to my PR doughs just for the fact that I may do some in my mixer. Are really high effective hydration doughs supposed to stay rough after kneading?  I mix on speed 2 only, which is recommended as the only speed in the manual. Iíve read to go higher or lower, but donít want to risk anything. Ive also tried giving it 5 minute breaks and flipping the dough over with a bowl scraper. Thanks!

My recipe is:
ē 1 cup warm water (236g) (110 degrees F) [69%]
ē 1 1/2 tablespoon yeast (Use 15g fresh) [4.4%] or 5g-5.56g IDY [1.47%-1.6%] or try .918g IDY [.27%]
ē 1 tablespoon sugar (14g) [4%]
ē 2 tsp dry milk (5-6g) [1.4%-1.7%]
ē 1 1/2 teaspoon salt (use 1 tsp or 7g) [2%]
ē 4 tablespoons (54g) vegetable oil [15%]
2 1/2 to 2 3/4 cups all-purpose flour (Use bread flour 340g) [100%]
Pod4477,

From the numbers you posted, it appears that your dough ball weight is around 23 ounces or so. You should be able to mix and knead such a dough in your KitchenAid stand mixer but if the dough is of high hydration there can be a tendency for the dough to ride the C or J hook you are using and, as a result, not get fully hydrated and kneaded. Also, when you add the large amount of oil (15%) from your recipe, even if you add it later in the mixing process, it may be hard to incorporate it easily.

What I would like to suggest is that you read the first two posts in this thread where I discussed how to better incorporate ingredients and mix and knead a dough that can have a high hydration value (I mentioned 65% and up):

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33251#msg33251

In reading those posts, you can ignore my use of the whisk attachment and also my particular sequencing of ingredients such as the yeast and salt although my methods were intended to make a dough that could cold ferment for about six days. Leaving the yeast and salt out of the initial mixing of the dough also has the effect of creating an autolyse, which improves the hydration of the flour. The parts that you should concentrate on is the sifting of the flour and using the flat beater attachment. Adding 15% oil may still be a problem when added later in the process but if you continue to use the flat beater attachment before switching to the C or J hook, I  think you may be OK. In my case, I only used the Stir speed but I do not see any harm in using a higher speed for the final mix part of the process if it looks like the dough is coming together nicely. In my case, I also used a punch and knead method that I read about in an article directed to making a Neapolitan style dough.

If you decide to try my method as described in the posts mentioned above, please let us know if the method helped. What I was trying to do was to find ways to work around the inherent deficiencies of a stand mixer with a C or J hook.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2018, 07:18:22 PM
Was curious if the Empire mozzarella was more yellow than the Saputo mozzarella.  Lined up the Saputo on the left, Empire in the middle and the cheddar on the right.  The Empire was more yellow than the Saputo and the cheddar. 

Didn't notice before, but the last ingredient in the Saputo mozzarella is modified starch.  Guess the modified starch is used to bind the moisture in the mozzarella and maybe make it easier to shred.  The Empire mozzarella didn't list modified starch in the ingredients list. 

Tasted the Empire and the Saputo mozzarella's today.  The Empire did taste saltier than the Saputo, but for my palate I preferred the Saputo in every way.  The Empire mozzarella didn't taste buttery to me.  Peter did say the Empire mozzarella had a bit more sodium than the Saputo at Reply 274

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54120.msg549371#msg549371

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norcoscia on November 08, 2018, 07:43:04 PM
I have had cheese I loved until it melted so it will be interesting if the melted Empire is more interesting than it was uncooked - please let us know what you think about it whenever you to make a pie with some Norma. Thanks for posting the photos too....
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2018, 07:55:03 PM
I have had cheese I loved until it melted so it will be interesting if the melted Empire is more interesting than it was uncooked - please let us know what you think about it whenever you to make a pie with some Norma. Thanks for posting the photos too....

Norm,

Was also wondering how the melted Empire would cook and taste.  Will let you know how Steve and I like it.  Interesting that you loved some cheese until it melted. 

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on November 08, 2018, 10:22:40 PM
Thank you guys for your help. The bread came out very good and very soft. Perhaps I could have kneaded it a bit better, but with this hydration it can be tough with the KA. Thank you for all the info and links Peter and Foreplease. The amount of yeast I used .91g was perfect, but took longer during the bulk rise at 100į proof oven temp. The flavor of the dough with soybean oil and powdered milk is flavorful and tastes like Jimmy Johnís. It was a JJ clone recipe I adapted to my specs after finding it on YouTube. It reminds me of PR and maybe thatís just the oil. The crumb is similar and if I let this cold fermented for 7 days it would be even closer I bet.

Norma,
Yum that looks like the Empire I bought. The color of mine is quite yellow and I had aged mine for 3 months until it got too moldy/white spots. I usually just cut that off though. I did find the taste to be saltier, but PR must have something going on because theirs is so buttery! Like popcorn.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 09, 2018, 06:45:48 AM

Norma,
Yum that looks like the Empire I bought. The color of mine is quite yellow and I had aged mine for 3 months until it got too moldy/white spots. I usually just cut that off though. I did find the taste to be saltier, but PR must have something going on because theirs is so buttery! Like popcorn.

Pod4477,

Interesting that the Empire mozzarella sent to me looks like yours when it was aged for 3 months.  Wonder where that buttery taste is coming from. The only way I have found a buttery tasting cheese alone or in a blend for pizzas, is to use cheddar, but maybe I didn't experiment enough.  Seems like Empire cheese had a long time history before it was finally named Empire cheese, and then taken over by Great Lakes.

https://www.cubacheese.com/aboutus.asp

Didn't do too much research but it seems interesting that Cuba 835 opened up new markets for New York cheese way back. http://history.rays-place.com/ny/cuba-village-ny.htm  Whether Ackerly, Sill & Co made cheddar or mozzarella, or purchased it to resell back then sure don't know. 
https://books.google.com/books?id=qR1EAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA834&lpg=PA834&dq=Ackerly,+Sill+and+Co+Cuba&source=bl&ots=68aTks09Ze&sig=0zEOr3XMn2iumdrGNFrbUrsmTzs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjsyLqbl8feAhWswFkKHXr_D4EQ6AEwCnoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q=Ackerly%2C%20Sill%20and%20Co%20Cuba&f=false  On page 886 it says that Ackerly, Sill & Co., George H. Harris & Co, and Demcey & Sibley are large operators and dealers in cheese. 

In this later article it says that Cuba is a cheese destination throughout generations.

 https://newyorkmakers.com/blogs/magazine/116315140-cuba-a-cheese-destination-throughout-generations  If the second photo is copied (where the cheeses are standing up, it says all cheddarís).

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on November 09, 2018, 12:37:54 PM
Pod4477,

Interesting that the Empire mozzarella sent to me looks like yours when it was aged for 3 months.  Wonder where that buttery taste is coming from. The only way I have found a buttery tasting cheese alone or in a blend for pizzas, is to use cheddar, but maybe I didn't experiment enough.  Seems like Empire cheese had a long time history before it was finally named Empire cheese, and then taken over by Great Lakes.

https://www.cubacheese.com/aboutus.asp

Didn't do too much research but it seems interesting that Cuba 835 opened up new markets for New York cheese way back. http://history.rays-place.com/ny/cuba-village-ny.htm  Whether Ackerly, Sill & Co made cheddar or mozzarella, or purchased it to resell back then sure don't know. 
https://books.google.com/books?id=qR1EAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA834&lpg=PA834&dq=Ackerly,+Sill+and+Co+Cuba&source=bl&ots=68aTks09Ze&sig=0zEOr3XMn2iumdrGNFrbUrsmTzs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjsyLqbl8feAhWswFkKHXr_D4EQ6AEwCnoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q=Ackerly%2C%20Sill%20and%20Co%20Cuba&f=false  On page 886 it says that Ackerly, Sill & Co., George H. Harris & Co, and Demcey & Sibley are large operators and dealers in cheese. 

In this later article it says that Cuba is a cheese destination throughout generations.

 https://newyorkmakers.com/blogs/magazine/116315140-cuba-a-cheese-destination-throughout-generations  If the second photo is copied (where the cheeses are standing up, it says all cheddarís).

Norma

That is very interesting that it looked like the aged version of mine. I should have done more testing of aged vs unaged Empire mozz. It did seem to melt better and taste a bit better, but I didnít see much difference when I aged it. Now when I compared my (aged for 1-2 month) Empire to the PR cheese, they did have the same color and similar flavor profile, but PR was WAY more buttery. Using cheddar is a very good point and Iíve enjoyed blending chedddar in. So maybe PR is still aging theirs since it did match up well to my 2 month aged PR cheese, but the buttery flavor wasnít the same. Today Iím going to go get another small piece of Empire cheese and try to age it in a foodsaver bag for 3 months.  As Peter pointed out, the one I get doesnít seem to be what PR is using, so maybe they are using a special blend. I enjoyed reading about Cuba, Great Lakes, Empire, and the history you posted about them. I never knew about Cuba, NY and I think itís amazing the history theyíve had. It seems tough to get Grande cheese around here so I usually get Empire or Sorrento.

Peter,
I meant to say before how much I love your Kitchen Aid guide, and Iím going to follow it today when making more JJ bread. I also will make some more PR clone doughs with it since itís perfect for long cold ferments. Iíll use my beater attachment this time.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on November 14, 2018, 04:55:05 AM
Also figured I'd give a little update.  I haven't really been able to do any more tests bakes as it has pretty much rained every other day here in MA and the days that it hasn't rained have been quite windy. I've left my Ooni wrapped up.  I will be doing some more test bakes hopefully this week though and I noticed on my last pictures that I was using more water in the sauce. I forgot that Pizzashark said it was 50/50 Canned tomatoes and water, but I forgot he meant the thick Stanislaus and I was using Pastene Kitchen Ready that day.  So I definitely had more water, but it still came out awesome.  Pastene is nice, because I can buy smaller cans on sale and I even drain the chunky kitchen ready ones for deep dish pizza.  I still need to bring in a slice for the worker at PR to try. 

Also, the worker at PR told me the oven at Braintree can go up to 700 degrees, but they set it to 485 degrees.  This was probably already known, but good to hear it from him. 
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: enchant on November 14, 2018, 04:15:32 PM
For various reasons not worth going into, I haven't made a pizza from scratch for about 6 months and it's time to get back on the horse. 

Getting into the North End is a rare occurrence for me, so I haven't eaten at that PR location yet, but I did stop in to PR in Kingston and had a couple slices.  Thought it was terrific and I'd love to duplicate that.

I've always used a KA stand mixer for my dough, but I'm intrigued by using a food processor, so I tried Pod's procedure from a couple pages back.  I wasn't exactly sure what "cold water" meant, so I grabbed some out of my fridge.  Perhaps that was too cold.   I also read up on Pete-zza's great description here:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2189.msg19291#msg19291

However, after everything was finally combined and I'd pulsed for probably 30 seconds, the dough in the mixer looked more like a cracker crust dough - very crumbly.  I felt it and it definitely wanted to stick together like I'd expect of a pizza dough, but it was still quite cold.  I ran it through the processor (with the plastic blade) for quite a while - maybe a couple more minutes.  It started to form into a ball, but it would never "form a unitary ball around the blade" as Pete-zza described in his post.

At this point, I checked the temp, which was about 63F.  I took it out of the processor and hand-kneaded for a while.  This got it up to about 67.  Should I be shooting for closer to 80?  In any event, I got it into a zip-lock bag and into the fridge.  I'll give it a go next week.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on November 15, 2018, 06:23:22 AM
For various reasons not worth going into, I haven't made a pizza from scratch for about 6 months and it's time to get back on the horse. 

Getting into the North End is a rare occurrence for me, so I haven't eaten at that PR location yet, but I did stop in to PR in Kingston and had a couple slices.  Thought it was terrific and I'd love to duplicate that.

I've always used a KA stand mixer for my dough, but I'm intrigued by using a food processor, so I tried Pod's procedure from a couple pages back.  I wasn't exactly sure what "cold water" meant, so I grabbed some out of my fridge.  Perhaps that was too cold.   I also read up on Pete-zza's great description here:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2189.msg19291#msg19291

However, after everything was finally combined and I'd pulsed for probably 30 seconds, the dough in the mixer looked more like a cracker crust dough - very crumbly.  I felt it and it definitely wanted to stick together like I'd expect of a pizza dough, but it was still quite cold.  I ran it through the processor (with the plastic blade) for quite a while - maybe a couple more minutes.  It started to form into a ball, but it would never "form a unitary ball around the blade" as Pete-zza described in his post.

At this point, I checked the temp, which was about 63F.  I took it out of the processor and hand-kneaded for a while.  This got it up to about 67.  Should I be shooting for closer to 80?  In any event, I got it into a zip-lock bag and into the fridge.  I'll give it a go next week.

I hear ya. I go through weeks of not making any pizza and the North End is a rare occurance for me, unless itís warm out and August for the Feasts  ;D I still need to try Kingston.

Everything you described happened to me the first time I used the food processor for this dough. I apologize, I should have proved the water to get a temp on the cold water. My water comes from a Poland spring dispenser or Bubbla as I usually say  ;D. Itís around 42į when I use it for the dough. Not sure if itís too cold, but Peter would know. Whenever I use that temp water, my final dough ball is around 73į-76į. Lately more around 76į.

To me it sounds like there wasnít enough water added. Lately I only add the oil after I get the dough ball formed, but Iím not sure if I wrote this in my clone recipe. Peter gave me that tip, and it helps because there are times when the dough needs less or more water, and the oil would always get in the way of that. Of course it can get tricky when thinking about ďshould I use all the oil I weighed out and less water?Ē or ďshould I use all the water in less oil?Ē.  My recipe may need some adjusting hydration wise.

What Iíd reccomend is adding flour into the bowl of the food processor and then however youíd like to add your yeast and salt. I usually add IDY to the flour and pulse to combine, and then either add salt to the four (and pulse to combine) or dissolve salt into the water (the only issue with doing that is that if you end up needing to use less water then youíre losing some salt from the saltwater). I then add the water (or saltwater at this point) to the flour and pulse as Iím adding it, or just add it and pulse a few times. It should come together into a ball fairly quickly (about 5 -10 seconds). If it doesnít, then I would add more water and pulse. I think the aim is to pulse as little as possible at this stage to keep the temp down in the food processor. It doesnít have to come together in a perfect shape,  but once it forms a mass, then I would add the oil and this is where I pulse for an additional 15-20 seconds (usually on the low end of that). It has come out around 76į the past 5 or so times, so Iíve been able to control it over time. Iím sure your dough will be delicious. What are you going to cook it in?  This is how my original food processor procedure started about 4 years ago: https://slice.seriouseats.com/2010/10/the-pizza-lab-how-to-make-great-new-york-style-pizza.html https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2010/10/new-york-style-pizza.html

Peterís method is better though, because of adding the oil last and other reasons that have really helped to improve this dough.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2018, 09:21:15 AM
Another video (first part of the video) from Regina Pizzeria from WCVB 5abc, posted yesterday.

https://www.wcvb.com/article/boston-pizzeria-named-best-in-america/25138109?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_content=5bee41f304d3012544486779&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2fbgmvGkSzhM5AI76HvMueKLtUG4eFOwbrULrt2Hgpp-BIdlaGhNEQvyI

What wonders me is what would make the difference from slowly mixing the dough.  Have noticed there is some spotting (browning of cheese, when using the Empire mozzarella).

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: enchant on November 16, 2018, 10:00:37 AM
Oops - I was waiting for a notification in my mailbox that you'd posted again.  I didn't realize you simply updated your post with all the good info.  My bad.

To me it sounds like there wasnít enough water added.

I dunno.  Although it looked wrong, the dough felt right.  But after a total of probably over five minutes of food processor action, it still wasn't over 70F.  The water coming out of the fridge is about 38.  I might add a little room temp filtered water to get it up closer to 50 and give that a try.  Of course, if I get a splendid crust from this attempt, I'll just leave it cold.

Quote
What are you going to cook it in?
I use my home oven at 550, preheating the stone for about an hour prior.  I'll probably pull the dough out of the fridge about 4 hours before baking.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: enchant on November 16, 2018, 10:16:03 AM
What wonders me is what would make the difference from slowly mixing the dough.

Maybe it's possible that either it was reported inaccurately, or he didn't really mean "mixing" so much as "creating".  Maybe he's talking about a long proofing cycle.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2018, 10:38:19 AM
Maybe it's possible that either it was reported inaccurately, or he didn't really mean "mixing" so much as "creating".  Maybe he's talking about a long proofing cycle.

pat,

Your are probably right the he might be talking about a long proofing cycle.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on November 17, 2018, 04:38:05 AM
Another video (first part of the video) from Regina Pizzeria from WCVB 5abc, posted yesterday.

https://www.wcvb.com/article/boston-pizzeria-named-best-in-america/25138109?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_content=5bee41f304d3012544486779&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2fbgmvGkSzhM5AI76HvMueKLtUG4eFOwbrULrt2Hgpp-BIdlaGhNEQvyI

What wonders me is what would make the difference from slowly mixing the dough.  Have noticed there is some spotting (browning of cheese, when using the Empire mozzarella).

Norma

Thank you so much for posting this Norma and I was so happy to see some rarely seen behind the scenes captures here.  I'm surprised I didn't see this on TV.  Interesting he said slow mixing, so I wonder if he meant mixing or fermenting.  The browning of the cheese did increase a lot since I started using Great Lakes as well. 

Finally we get to see a good video of the dough.  At 42 seconds into the video we see all the flattened, pre-shaped dough sitting in a TON of flour.  Now do the doughs look like they've been shaped by hand to make the pronounce rim, or done with a dough mold?  I also wonder if some of those doughs are smaller than others and they must cover them as seen in other videos.  You can see quite a lot of bubbles and imagine they proof from just sitting there.  Awesome posting this Norma, thank you so much!  At 1:00 in that video you can see the side rim of the dressed pizza looking a little misshapen.  This shows why some of my pizzas there have came out flat rimmed.  They probably just have to go so quick that they can't make sure every pizza is perfect. I like that this happens, but I've seen some very inconsistent pies there.  1:17 shows what I think is the perfect example why the North End location beats the other locations of PR.  That is my favorite look to their pies. 

Oops - I was waiting for a notification in my mailbox that you'd posted again.  I didn't realize you simply updated your post with all the good info.  My bad.

I dunno.  Although it looked wrong, the dough felt right.  But after a total of probably over five minutes of food processor action, it still wasn't over 70F.  The water coming out of the fridge is about 38.  I might add a little room temp filtered water to get it up closer to 50 and give that a try.  Of course, if I get a splendid crust from this attempt, I'll just leave it cold.
I use my home oven at 550, preheating the stone for about an hour prior.  I'll probably pull the dough out of the fridge about 4 hours before baking.

Sorry I should have quoted you, my bad.  Must have been your really cold water that made it stay at a low temp, which is awesome.  I wonder what the best temp for food processor water is, as I really meant to research that before.  I too cook at 550 F and also 485 F, depending on what kind of bake I want for that day.  I have found that I get good results pulling the dough out about 3-4 hours in cooler home temps.  I love a lot of caked on flour, so I put the dough ball into my plastic container and drench with flour before pressing it down to the flatness seen in the video.  This seems to help it temper quicker instead of staying cold.  If you have a proof setting in your oven you can put it covered in there at 85 F, or do the oven light on trick or something similar.  I found that 72-76 F dough temp was the best temp to open up these doughs, which is only 3 degrees F over what the dough temp is that comes out of the food processor.  I find that if its under 70 F, then I have trouble getting it stretched super thin and opening up the rim/edges of the dough.  I will say that Peter and the PR workers have stated the best dough temp to open the dough balls (and they are definitely right) to be much lower than 72-76 degrees, but I've had good luck with 72-76 F.  It took me 2 hours in my 85 F proof setting oven to reach 72-76 F dough temp, so 4 hours at room temp sounds right. 

If your dough feels right then that's good!  As Pizzashark has said, a lot of making his dough is done by feel, and my calculations are definitely just a guideline for how I made mine.  It's important to note that PR crust is VERY bready; their rim has a ton of dough in it.  Also, a 3-7 day ferment is key and I was amazed at how well it comes out after even 3 days.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2018, 06:12:21 AM

Finally we get to see a good video of the dough.  At 42 seconds into the video we see all the flattened, pre-shaped dough sitting in a TON of flour.  Now do the doughs look like they've been shaped by hand to make the pronounce rim, or done with a dough mold?  I also wonder if some of those doughs are smaller than others and they must cover them as seen in other videos.  You can see quite a lot of bubbles and imagine they proof from just sitting there. 


Pod4477,

I also saw all of those flattened pre-shaped dough sitting in a ton of flour.  Some of those look like a mold might have been used, but most of them don't, at least to my eyes.  I wonder how a lower hydration dough would be able to handle all of that flour, plus time sitting out, which they might then get drier and proof a little more.

If using the wayback machine, it can be seen what the stretched dough looked like at https://web.archive.org/web/20000917033811/http://www.pizzeriaregina.com:80/history/

Also says that Pizzeria Regina back then used a special proprietary mozzarella cheese.  Maybe the Empire cheese they use does have more fat or something else added.

If other dates are searched things change along the years.  Even the pizzas look somewhat different.  The photo at the top of that capture sure all look lighter in the color of the crust.

Also find this link interesting on the wayback machine.  It says this:

Many bakeries in that day would make pan pizza from the leftover dough of the day. The dough would be spread in the pans, a light coating of sauce was added with a finish of cheese. Sold by the slice to workers at lunch, many local Boston residents discovered this great treat. Polcariís Grocery sold to many of these stores and the owners became close friends. 


That sure sounds like a Greek pizza to me, with probably some cheddar added.


In 1926 a family friend of the Polcariís started making what was innovative in that day, ďround pizzas.Ē The famous ďPizzeria ReginaĒ was born. Twenty years later John senior's old time friend became ill and unable to continue ďRegina.Ē So in 1946 the Polcari family took over the operation of Pizzeria Regina. Their experience in the grocery business was a tremendous help in running these early food operations. They knew how and what to buy, what products were good quality and those that were not. The family also came in contact with hundreds of families throughout the North End and collected authentic ďOld CountryĒ recipes. This is the world that John P. Polcari grew up in. John worked with his brother, Anthony and Charlie, who taught him all about food and the family operations.


https://web.archive.org/web/20050311042838/http://www.pizzeriaregina.com:80/history

Don't really know if Jeff B. Boston, MA-YELP knew what he was talking about but said it was an awesome cheese blend.

https://web.archive.org/web/20091020115134/http://www.reginapizzeria.com:80/testimonials.php

Can't really find the link to where this picture was on the waybackmachine, but wish this photo could be enlarged so it would be clear.  It is their pizza from a long time ago.

Didn't take the time to go though all of those captures at the waybackmachine. :-D

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2018, 06:21:44 AM
These one photo from that one captured link sure don't look like a bigger rim crust was tried to be made.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: enchant on November 17, 2018, 06:48:23 AM
I have found that I get good results pulling the dough out about 3-4 hours in cooler home temps.

I totally forgot one part of my proofing process.  In the past, I've made the dough (which I've never been 100% happy with) and proofed for 2 days in the fridge.  But I also have several of these to-go containers that a nearby restaurant uses.  They're round, flattish and about 7" across. When I make the dough, I put them in one of these and into the fridge.  So once it's time to shape the dough, I'm most of the way there.  Perhaps a day ahead of time I'll transfer the dough to one of these.

In 1926 a family friend of the Polcariís started making what was innovative in that day, ďround pizzas.Ē The famous ďPizzeria ReginaĒ was born. Twenty years later John senior's old time friend became ill and unable to continue ďRegina.Ē So in 1946 the Polcari family took over the operation of Pizzeria Regina. Their experience in the grocery business was a tremendous help in running these early food operations. They knew how and what to buy, what products were good quality and those that were not. The family also came in contact with hundreds of families throughout the North End and collected authentic ďOld CountryĒ recipes. This is the world that John P. Polcari grew up in. John worked with his brother, Anthony and Charlie, who taught him all about food and the family operations.

I think someone should call Ken Burns and suggest he start his next great documentary - "Pizza".
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2018, 06:54:48 AM


I think someone should call Ken Burns and suggest he start his next great documentary - "Pizza".

pat,

 ;D  Sure would be interesting.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on November 18, 2018, 07:59:55 AM
Norma,

Thank you for reminding me.  Pizzashark had mentioned a wet dough and my suspicion was that maybe they get away with all the flour because of the extra water in the dough.  Braintree doesn't use much flour though, but you never know if they are getting a different batch.  The worker at Braintree said the dough isn't very sticky and to me it looks like maybe 60-65% hydration, but the oil is also at work in the dough too.  It doesn't look as dry as some NY doughs, but it doesn't look super sticky and hydrated either.  I remember Pizzashark saying that the skin should start to stick to the peel if it is left on the peel for too long during dressing.  He said that the sauce and dough have water because the idea is that the water bakes out of both during the bake (which is long with PR).  He was right about the sauce being very watery, so I assumed he was right about the dough. Thank you for letting me know about if molds might be used.

I loved seeing those Wayback machine links.  Such a cool that thing that wayback is.  That stretched dough does look a big different and I wish the picture at the top was enlarged to see that Pizza better too.  I never knew they made pan pizza before and it was probably the first record here of what came to be greek pies with cheddar as you said.  I always find it cool reading about the Polcari family, because I have been good friends with them.  They are an amazing family and I never knew I would be trying to recreate their families pies.  I wish I met the older generation in the family though.

Pat,
That sounds like a quick and easy way to refrigerate the dough.  I heard of someone else doing that (maybe it was even you).  Such a good idea.  Haha Ken Burns should!  I'd watch it.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: HansB on November 18, 2018, 08:38:45 AM

I think someone should call Ken Burns and suggest he start his next great documentary - "Pizza".



My boss partially funded the recent Mayo Clinic documentary that Ken Produced/Directed. We had him on the airplane for the week when we did a road show debuting the documentary. Very nice guy. Wonder if he likes pizza!?!??
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norcoscia on November 18, 2018, 10:46:46 AM
If he does not, look for an empty pod in the storage area of your plane....
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on December 21, 2018, 11:32:29 PM
So I revisited the Braintree Regina. Two thoughts.
Cheese and Sauce Taste: very umami from the tomatoes, with the taste of butter
Crust Taste: very very soft crumb with a buttery/oil taste to it.

The crumb is SO flavorful compared to other chains. I think they are using more oil to achieve this, but it may be from enhanced fermentation. They are also cooking this pizza just until cooked, so the crumb is still very tender.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on January 01, 2019, 04:53:43 PM
Major Update!!!!!
I have finally 100% recreated the PR crust!!  The key is long cold ferment times.  8-9 days worked perfect for me.  I found that even 7 days wasn't enough for that PR taste.  I made 4 doughs last week.  I used 3 doughs after 7 days and one dough after 8-9 days and the only one that fermented enough to taste like PR was the 8-9 day dough.  I made them all the same way and I believe they were all the same internal temp.  I have made probably 20 doughs (not a ton but enough to get an idea) and the only one that had that fermented taste was the 8-9 day dough, so I'm pretty confident that is the key here.  When I took the 8-9 day fermented dough out of the fridge it did look a bit more fermented.  I pressed the gasses out of the center of the dough and made a rim, then I placed it in flour and let it temper for 2 hours at 85 F, as I do with every dough.  But when this dough was opened up, I could tell it was softer and had many more bubbles than normal. It looked like a PR dough when I've watched them open it up in Braintree.  I used 10oz of tomato sauce and 6.6 oz of shredded cheese, with melted butter evenly spread throughout the cheese.  When the pizza came out of the pizza oven, you could smell the butter, like you can at PR, and the crust was exactly like PR.  All along, all it was was giving it 1-2 more days in the fridge.  It was the best crust I've ever had and extremely close to PR's crust. 

Perhaps it was due to the fridge temp or amount of yeast used, but the extra time seemed to be key.  Thank you to everyone that helped.  I'm still not exact on the sauce and cheese, as those need some tweaking, but the crust was the hardest part for sure. 
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 02, 2019, 12:55:45 PM
Pod4477,

That is good news.

Can you post the recipe you used and how you made and managed the dough to get the results you achieved?

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on January 02, 2019, 08:39:51 PM
Pod4477,

That is good news.

Can you post the recipe you used and how you made and managed the dough to get the results you achieved?

Peter

Definitely!  I will compile my procedure and post it tonight.  I really am amazed at how much difference it makes.  I don't think I've ever replicated something so closely, ever.  Thank you for all your help and advice.  I learned the techniques and calculations from you and others on here, and the .20% IDY is the perfect amount.  I'm guessing where it is such a low amount, that is why it took 8-9 days to fully ferment.  I'm still shocked at how much difference it makes when it goes that long. 
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on January 04, 2019, 04:23:09 AM
My Ultimatest Bestest Recipe:

This is by no means a final or perfect recipe, but let's just say that I no longer care to go to PR anymore  :P. I haven't been able to 100% replicate their tomatoes or cheese, but I've come close.  This recipe has ended up tasting like a blend of Denly Gardens and PR, with PR being mainly the crust, but also very close with the cheese and sauce. 

Dough:  I calculated a 560g and 500g 16", 70% effective dough, but feel free to reduce the amount of oil.  I've also gone up to 15% and it didn't make a big difference in taste.  NOTE: 500g is good for a thinner bottom crust and rim, but the pictured pie is from a 560g dough.  So feel free to trim some off after mixing, but before placing in bag in the fridge, or just use the 500g recipe below the 560g recipe.

Flour (Bread) (100%):     325.44 g  |  11.48 oz | 0.72 lbs
Water (60%):     195.26 g  |  6.89 oz | 0.43 lbs
IDY (.20%):     0.65 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.22 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
Salt (Regular/Fine Sea Salt)(1.875%):     6.1 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
La Spagnola Vegetable and Olive Oil Blend (10%):     32.54 g | 1.15 oz | 0.07 lbs | 7.17 tsp | 2.39 tbsp
Total (172.075%):    560 g | 19.75 oz | 1.23 lbs | TF = N/A

1.  Weigh out all ingredients
2.  Put flour in food processor
3.  Dissolve salt into COLD FILTERED water around the 43įF temp range.
4.  Add IDY to flour and pulse to incorporate *NOTE: Usually I distribute the IDY into the flour while the flour is dry, and sometimes I sprinkle the IDY on top of an already formed dough ball, but haven't tried the latter method with the food processor.*
5.  Either set food processor to on, or pulse while adding in water/salt mixture through food processor tube, until a crude dough ball is formed (about 10-15 seconds).  It may be a bit dry until we add the oil.
6.  Add in La Spagnola Vegetable and Olive Oil blend oil and pulse for an additional 15 seconds.
7.  At this point there should be a nice dough ball formed around 73į-76į F internal temp, and it should be pretty smooth.  Additional hand kneading can be done on bench to tighten and smooth out dough ball, but do not add any additional flour.
8.  Place dough ball in fridge/freezer bag and place in the fridge for 8-9 days. This is the minimum amount of days for the dough to ferment into the signature taste of PR dough. 7 days wasnít even enough. I suggest labeling the bag with recipe info and date it went in the fridge.

Bake Day Preparation (North End location technique):

1.  Fill a container with a ton of flour, with enough covering the entire bottom of the container.  Ideally you will want a container that has a lid.  I use the Rubbermaid TakeAlongs Food Storage Container - 1Gal 2pk
https://www.target.com/p/rubbermaid-takealongs-food-storage-container-1gal-2pk/-/A-13477079 (https://www.target.com/p/rubbermaid-takealongs-food-storage-container-1gal-2pk/-/A-13477079). These have an awesome lid and are big enough, but feel free to use whatever.  The main key here is to use a lot of flour to replicate the North End location.

2.  Take dough ball out of the fridge and out of its bag.  Place dough ball into floured container and prepare the dough ball as if you were preparing the a dough ball for the pizza peel.  Press down the center of the dough ball, pushing the gasses out to the edge, and making a crust rim by pressing down along the entire diameter of the dough ball.  Many of you are familiar with this method of pressing the gasses out of the middle of the dough ball to the edge, and making a rim by pressing down along the entire diameter of the disc, but I figured I'd mention it.  This is how I saw the North End dough balls tempering, so I've done it this way lately.  The key is to get the dough ball flattened, so that it tempers quicker, so you can also just press the dough ball down flat instead.

3.  Pour enough flour on top of flattened dough.  The goal is to completely submerge the dough in flour to the point where you can't even see it anymore.  This ensures that there is enough flour for the flour to cake on to the dough ball during tempering.

4.  Place lid on container and place in 85F oven for 2 hours.  You can always leave this out on the counter or any warm area.  I found the dough to be about 72į-76įF internal temp after 2 hours, which is high, but it ensures that the dough opens easily and whenever I opened the dough at a colder temp, it didn't work as well.  If the dough feels cold when opening, I knew I had to wait a bit longer.  This is not a popular opening temp, but just how I've done it.

*PREPARE SAUCE now, at least an hour before dough is done tempering, so that the flavors blend* (I have done this 5 minutes before placing on dough, but I've been told an hour helps)*
Sauce: 60/40 Tomatoes to Water ratio (will be watery)
10oz total sauce weight
6oz (60%) Pastene Kitchen Ready Tomatoes (Original, Chunky, or No Salt all work well)
4oz Filtered water
Pinch of Romano Cheese
Pinch of Italian Oregano
Pinch of Salt (Optional but I believe PR adds it)
*NOTE: If using thick paste consistency tomatoes, use a 50/50 ratio of tomatoes to water*

*PREPARE CHEESE now*
Cheese:
6.5-7oz Cold or Room Temp, Shredded Great Lakes Low Moisture Whole Milk Mozzarella Cheese
About a tablespoon of Melted, Unsalted Butter (can use Clarified Butter with water removed, but milk solids and butterfat intact). The milk solids are what we really want.
Method: Pour butter over cheese and mix to incorporate.

5.  Open dough with knuckles (this is pretty much all PR does) until 16" size is reached.  Make sure to use your knuckles only on the outside of the dough near the rim, and make sure to open the rim up enough with your knuckles to ensure the rim won't bake to thick.  It's okay if you go over 16" a bit, as you can always compress the dough a bit on the peel with minimal negative results.

6.  Place a finger full of semolina on wooden pizza peel and spread it around, covering the entire peel.  I have found that excess semolina hasn't mattered much, so don't be afraid to put more if needed.  PR uses only a fingerfull or handfull. It probably comes out to about an ⅛ cup but I'm not sure.

7.  Place dough onto semolina filled peel and spread sauce over dough, making sure to get sauce right up to the rim.  This will ensure the sauce will spread onto the rim while it bakes, creating the lovely browned/blackened crust coloration.  Spread cheese evenly over sauce, but making sure to focus on spreading the cheese near the outside more than the middle, as it will spread out as it melts.  *NOTE: The North End location may even use 10oz of cheese along with 10 oz sauce, and place said cheese mainly in the middle, but only do this is if you like a messy middle pizza (which is fine ;D )* 

8.  I bake my pizza in an Uuni Pro oven with a custom flame guard.  This lets me bake around 485įF (Braintree location temp) or 600F (North End Location temp range).  The key to the North End or Braintree is hot dry air, with no flame.  PR pies have a crackly crust with soft inside, but minimal color unless kept in the oven longer.  I believe the North End location takes out their pizzas that are designated for slices extra early on purpose, so you may want to do that if you want.  Bake it longer for more color and optimal cheese melting.  Also, a little flame at the end does give the crust some blacked coloring that only happens in the North End location. 

If you want more of a Maillard reaction crust (intense wheaty flavor) I suggest cooking at 485įF only, but this will be a longer 10-12 minute bake, as opposed to a shorter 6-8 minute bake at 600įF.  These times are approximate, but the Maillard reaction mainly only happens at 485įF (Braintree location temp).  The crust should still have caked on flour, especially after the 600įF bake.

9.  Place pizza on a pizza pan for serving or on a cooling rack.  PR may use cooling racks first and then transfer to the pizza pan.  ALWAYS eat on a paper place to soak up the grease (thanks Pizza Shark for that tip and many other tips). And thank you Peter, Norma, Pizza Shark for all your immense help.  I hope I've done you proud and please feel free to ask any question and recommendations.

I love making my custom order Giambatta pie, which has (layered in this order):
7-10oz tomato sauce, Salami, Pepperoni, 3.25oz (half) mozzarella cheese, thick sliced Yellow or Sweet or White Onions, thick sliced Green Bell Peppers, Meatballs, Sausage, other 3.25oz (half) mozzarella cheese.  Garnish with an overwhelming amount of chiffonade Basil leaves.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: bobgraff on January 04, 2019, 07:15:04 AM
Excellent write-up.  Congrats for "cracking the code"!
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 04, 2019, 10:25:00 AM
Pod4477,

I agree with Bob that you did an excellent job writing up what you did. And I am glad that we were able to help. Sometime over the weekend, I would like to revisit what we did in this thread to see how your final results connected with what Anthony and others told us about the PR dough and pizza. As you know, I have viewed a lot of the videos that were cited in this thread as being more like infomercials, and it is also possible that Anthony may not have been up to date on the exact formulation of the PR dough. As you know, he said that there was no oil in the dough, even though at one time they did use oil, as Pizza Shark told us and as was also noted in a PR document as cited at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54120.msg546772#msg546772. Unfortunately, we had to rely on what Pizza Shark and the PR folks told us in our efforts to try to reverse engineer and clone the PR dough and pizzas. That can be extremely challenging and often leads to failure. It would have been far easier if we had an ingredients statement and/or nutrition data to help us decipher things.

We always knew that the PR dough was cold fermented for some time. But you were able to extend that time period. If you ever decide that you want to extent that period of time even longer, you might take a look at some of the posts in the thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33251#msg33251. I cited that thread earlier in this thread but I think it describes a good way to be able to use more yeast, along with low water temperatures, to extend the dough fermentation period even longer than your nine days, should you wish to even do that. Like you, I found extremely long cold ferments to produce very nice crust flavors, color and texture. What I described would be impractical in a commercial setting but can work well in a home setting if you don't mind waiting several more days than usual to make your pizzas.

I think it would be interesting sometime if you were to make one of your doughs and have the PR people in Braintree make a pizza out of it and see how it compares with one of their pizzas. As I recall, you had struck up a friendly relationship with one of the workers at that location so he may be willing to do it.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on January 04, 2019, 03:41:48 PM
Thank you guys!  You can see all the ash on that pie, from the windy New Year's day here.  You're very right about Peter, and I wished all along that there was an ingredients statement.  I went off the advice of you guys and from when I spoke to the PR chef when calling the headquarters.  It seems that they are currently using a similar oil to the La Spagnola Vegetable and Olive Oil Blend, but years ago they probably used either all cottonseed oil or no oil.  The good thing is that I don't think the oil has much affect on taste, as most comes from the extended fermentation.  It's amazing tasting the difference of two days.  The 7 day dough was very good but lacked that buttery fermentation taste.  When tasting the 8-9 day old dough, it was immediately apparent that the extra fermentation made a huge difference.  It tasted exactly like PR's crust and now I can make bread with it  ;D.

I do want to try and extend the time even more and I'm sure this is the same taste you had noted on your doughs.  Thank you for the link as I will be using it to try out extending this even more. 

That is a good idea Peter!  I plan on going in and letting the guys at PR taste some slices, now that I feel I'm very close to their recipe.  I think a dough baked in their oven would be amazing.

I also noted a ton of bubbling in my 8-9 day dough and seemed to happen at PR as well.  I wonder why this is.  It had much more bubbling compared to the 7 day dough.  I am still shocked at how much difference longer fermentation makes, down to the smell and the appearance of the final bake.  I was even able to get some caramelization taste on the rim, from having flames scorch the pizza for a second at the end of the bake.  I put some wood chips on the fire and it was amazing.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 04, 2019, 04:21:34 PM
Pod4477,

I am certain that the extensive bubbling that you experienced was due to the protracted fermentation. I once put together a post for the benefit of another member where I singled out some of the long fermented doughs that I made. If you go to Reply 20 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11344.msg106401#msg106401 and click on the links in that post and read what I posted about my results, you will see references to bubbling and blistering of the crusts. You will also note that I spoke about sweetness in the crusts in several of my experiments, which was puzzling because I did not add any sugar or malt products to the doughs. You will also see normal crust coloration, which was also unexpected but most likely was due to the high residual sugar levels in the doughs, however they were created, along with the Maillard reaction, at the time of baking. And the textures of the crusts were also quite normal. In one case that I can recall, I detected a bit of sourness in the crust. Remember, also, that I did not use minuscule amounts of yeast (IDY), and the amounts of yeast I used (up to 0.60% but mostly around 0.25%+) did not negatively work against long fermentations. I did not expect any of the above results. I still can't explain much of what I got.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: enchant on January 04, 2019, 04:29:37 PM
We always knew that the PR dough was cold fermented for some time. But you were able to extend that time period.

This may be a bit off-topic, but is there any accepted standard as to how long dough can sit in a fridge before it goes bad?
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norcoscia on January 04, 2019, 04:55:54 PM
I have kept dough in the cooler for over three weeks, somewhere between 3 weeks and a month it pretty much turnes to goo. I did this routinely not to make pizza but to build flavor. I would add the VOD (very old dough) in at between 10-15% into my next batch of 3 day fermented pizza dough, makes some mighty fine pizza. Guess  a lot depends on how cold your refrigerator is too.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 04, 2019, 05:03:54 PM
This may be a bit off-topic, but is there any accepted standard as to how long dough can sit in a fridge before it goes bad?

Pat,

You are not the first member to ask that question. And, I myself once asked myself the same question. And a member at the PMQ Think Tank once asked Tom Lehmann a similar question.

You can read the answer, as best we know it, in this thread:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22118.msg224701#msg224701

It also looks like Norm got the same answer with his geriatric doughs. ;D

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on January 05, 2019, 02:41:18 AM
I've wondered how long a dough can last in the fridge.  I had previous bad results from my sourdough pizza dough around the 9-14 day mark, so that's why I hadn't tried to let my PR IDY dough go that long.  But turns out it must have been all the starter making it over ferment and rip to shreds trying to open it.  I do believe the smell of PR is the fermented dough smell.  I don't know if I had mentioned it in my post, but the missing smell when putting my nose up to the slice, was finally there.  I do think they are using higher fat cheese or a flavoring additive.  Here's the funny thing, I really don't even know how to describe the difference in taste.  It just has that richer, almost buttery taste.  Might be also sweeter and a bit of sourness. 

I also noticed that the longer I cooked the pizza, the better the cheese and sauce did blend and gave it that orange appearance.  This has been my favorite taste of probably any pizza.  Using by weight more sauce (10oz) than cheese (6.5oz) seems to be a perfect blend of umami and savory. 

So it seems that the taste gets better with each day of fermentation, so I would imagine that maybe 10-11 days could take it even further, but would over-ferment as some point.  I do believe this is the secret of PR and that everyone saying it was pretty simple was right.  They just use quality cheese, good tomatoes, and longer fermentation dough.  Of course, I'm sure there are things we don't know about (such as that cheese), but mostly I feel that's what it is. 

I should try making this with a cooked sauce as I used to do.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: enchant on January 05, 2019, 05:20:28 AM
And then there's the issue that the dough will expand to a point where it's larger than the interior of the fridge.  ;D
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on January 05, 2019, 11:33:52 AM
And then there's the issue that the dough will expand to a point where it's larger than the interior of the fridge.  ;D

Ahhh yes I have had that happen!  It gets a bit cramped when I have 4-7 doughs on one shelf.  I had to order a replacement food processor blade since mine started rusting, along with a dough blade.  We shall see how the dough blade works.  I found with this higher hydration dough, the food processor works best.  There is also a dough machine that I believe Cuisinart or Breville makes, that I may check out.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: foreplease on January 05, 2019, 12:02:30 PM
I think you will like the plastic (?) dough blade. Several pulses work better than running it. Creates less heat too. Comes together fast.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 05, 2019, 05:55:43 PM
Pod4477,

As I said that I would do, I went back and reread this thread. What I wanted to see is if we missed anything important as we laboriously went step by step trying to reverse engineer and clone the PR dough and pizza. I did not find anything of import that we missed. However, I have noted below some areas where I wish we had further information, if only to put them to rest. What really matters is if you feel you have succeeded in your journey to replicate PR's pizzas. So, the answers to the matters I raise are not really critical to have. It is just in my nature, as a detailist, to not leave any stone unturned. Also, and perhaps more importantly, that is how I learn new things.

However, the above said, two things stood out from my reread of the thread. The first was the way that PR has chosen to market its pizzas, and the second was the nature of the current dough and related ingredients, namely, the cheese and sauce and their interplay with the dough to make good pizzas.

As you know, on the marketing side PR has frequently made reference to its use of a recipe that goes back to 1926 and how they used a special natural yeast and a dough that was subjected to long aging. Mention was made by Anthony how they tweaked the original recipes so that the pizzas they now make are like those made in 1926. But things were a lot different in 1926. For example, there were many flours in existence in 1926 but it was only in the 1970s that pizza makers started using high gluten flour to make pizzas. Also, in 1926, the only yeast products that were available to use, either for pizza dough or bread, were fresh yeast and wild yeast. ADY came into being after World War II, and IDY came into being in the 1970s. Moreover, reliable commercial refrigeration became available somewhat later, I believe in the 1930s. So, it is not clear whether the original PR pizzeria used cold fermentation of the dough or not and, if so, for how long. However, commercial mixers for making dough did exist so PR could have mixed the dough if they had such a mixer. As for the use of oil in the doughs, there were many edible oils in 1926 but it is not clear whether they were used in pizza doughs. From what I have read, oils--and also sugar--started to be used in earnest when the deck oven was invented. But deck ovens did not exist in 1926.

So, to summarize the above, it seems to me that the common ingredients used in 1926 and now are flour, water, salt, and yeast, and maybe oil. And that the changes made to the original recipes were more than just tweaking. Simply going to a commissary model would have entailed many variations from the original recipes.

However, the abovementioned similarities has not stopped PR from telling people how their pizzas are based on a 1926 recipe. They even mention the recipe and the special natural yeast on their napkins in their stores (and likewise at their website) even though to the best of my knowledge they have never told anyone publicly what that form of yeast is and why it its so important. But I suppose that if you keep telling people over and over that the pizzas they are eating are based on a recipe that is almost a century old and that they use a special natural yeast and long aging of the dough they might reasonably conclude that the pizzas must be very good if the recipe has survived almost 100 years. And Anthony said in one of the videos that the same would prevail over the next hundred years. I also noted how the self-serving, almost infomercial nature of the videos cited in this thread play into the longevity theme and the supposed merits of the recipe. And, no doubt, some of the highly laudatory reactions of PR customers, even if not supported by facts or evidence, has found its way into sites like Yelp and Trip Advisor and maybe even into some of the social media websites. Remember, it was consumer responses at the Trip Advisor websites that were aggregated in arriving at the conclusion that PR, notably the one in the North End, was the best pizzeria in the country. So, I think it is fair to say that PR's marketing approach has been a huge success. And their recent award will serve PR well for some time to come.

In setting forth the above, I do not mean to denigrate what PR has done with their pizzas. In fact, there are many positives. The flour, the tomatoes from Stanislaus and cheese from Empire that PR is using are of high quality. I assume that the special natural yeast may be fresh yeast, and I assume that the oils used by PR, even though Anthony may have mistakenly said that oils were not used in the dough, are of decent quality. Anthony also said that the cheese they used was a "blend". As I previously noted, a foodservice loaf of mozzarella cheese, like the Empire cheese, is actually a "blend" of several ingredients, namely, milk (pasteurized), cheese cultures, salt and enzymes. A blend does not have to mean a blend of two or more cheeses. In fact, in looking at the cheeses as they are shown in the videos, I did not see anything other than the shreds of mozzarella produced by putting loafs of the cheese through the shredders in the stores. I did not see evidence of grated cheese mixed in with the shreds, which I think would have been visible when the various people in the videos spread the cheese across the tops of the pizzas. As for the dough itself, the long aging of that dough is highly beneficial to the final results. The long aging of the mozzarella cheese (a full cream version according to Anthony) also produces desirable results.

As noted above, there are a few areas where I would like to know more about. Of course, I would like to know more about the special natural yeast, and whether it goes beyond a garden variety fresh yeast or if it is an entirely different animal. It would also be nice to know whose high gluten flour PR is using (maybe ADM's?), even if there are other high gluten flours that will also work. It would also be nice to see if PR will sell you one of their dough balls, since there are tests that can be performed in a home setting that can reveal a fair amount about the make-up of the dough. It would also be nice to know if Empire, or its parent Great Lakes, makes special cheese blends to the specs of customers, and also whether they use a butter-like component in their foodservice block mozzarella cheeses if such is requested by an account. Answers to these kinds of questions usually come from speaking with the people who have knowledge about the matters raised. They are unlikely to come from PR unless PR employees in the know spill the beans. Lastly, I would love to know how Paul Buccieri's pizzas in Chelsea are like when compared with those made by PR, inasmuch as he once worked for PR. Of course, he may not tell you.

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: andytiedye on January 05, 2019, 06:09:21 PM
They certainly could have used sourdough in 1926.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 05, 2019, 06:17:49 PM
They certainly could have used sourdough in 1926.
antdytiedye,

Yes, that is correct. But the sourdough would be based on wild or natural yeast (see Levain at https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#levain).

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: andytiedye on January 05, 2019, 07:38:10 PM
antdytiedye,

Yes, that is correct. But the sourdough would be based on wild or natural yeast (see Levain at https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#levain).

Peter
Would it still be "wild" after it has been getting fed every day for a few years?
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 05, 2019, 07:56:28 PM
Would it still be "wild" after it has been getting fed every day for a few years?

andytiedye,

So long as no commercial yeast is added, I would say yes even if it might change over time. When I use the term "wild", I mean yeast that is not commercial.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: scott r on January 05, 2019, 08:52:39 PM
I was driving past Regina the other day and I ordered a salad and asked them if I could buy some of the cheese that they use on their pizza.   The woman at the take out counter said no to the cheese, but to my surprise a few minutes later one of the chefs came out of the kitchen to ask me how much I needed.   I said enough for two pizzas would be fine, and got me a quart container full of shredded cheese.   

When I got back to my restaurant I tried the cheese both cold and baked on a pizza and it was good, but in my opinion it was similar to the cheese used at most decent quality pizzerias.  I didnt detect any buttery flavor, and to me it tasted just like standard issue empire mozzarella without any other cheeses blended in. 

I wish I had bought a pizza to try to detect the butter flavor.  I wonder if its possible that the buttery flavor and smell could be coming from the dough?   That makes more sense to me, as I think it would be easier for a pizzeria to include butter flavored crisco, or some other artificial butter flavor (or real butter even) in a dough rather than as a topping or dealing with mixing it in with the cheese.   
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: parallei on January 05, 2019, 09:15:23 PM
Would it still be "wild" after it has been getting fed every day for a few years?

If it wasn't being feed somehow, it would be dead.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 05, 2019, 09:39:06 PM
I was driving past Regina the other day and I ordered a salad and asked them if I could buy some of the cheese that they use on their pizza.   The woman at the take out counter said no to the cheese, but to my surprise a few minutes later one of the chefs came out of the kitchen to ask me how much I needed.   I said enough for two pizzas would be fine, and got me a quart container full of shredded cheese.   

When I got back to my restaurant I tried the cheese both cold and baked on a pizza and it was good, but in my opinion it was similar to the cheese used at most decent quality pizzerias.  I didnt detect any buttery flavor, and to me it tasted just like standard issue empire mozzarella without any other cheeses blended in. 


scott r,

Glad you could score some of their cheese.  8)

I did try the Empire mozzarella (one loaf) on some pizzas and ate it plain.  So did Steve (Ev).  We couldn't detect any buttery taste either.  Also aged it till the end of the loaf started to turn.  Cut off that part and tried the rest.  Still didn't have a buttery flavor.  Agree with you it is similar to cheese used at most decent quality pizzerias.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: invertedisdead on January 06, 2019, 10:41:35 AM

I wish I had bought a pizza to try to detect the butter flavor.  I wonder if its possible that the buttery flavor and smell could be coming from the dough?   That makes more sense to me, as I think it would be easier for a pizzeria to include butter flavored crisco, or some other artificial butter flavor (or real butter even) in a dough rather than as a topping or dealing with mixing it in with the cheese.   

Would a butter flavored oil be fairly common in pizzerias? To be brushed on the skins to add a buttery flavor and prevent the dough from drying out?
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 06, 2019, 02:27:33 PM
Would a butter flavored oil be fairly common in pizzerias? To be brushed on the skins to add a buttery flavor and prevent the dough from drying out?
Ryan,

There are several videos in this thread on how the PR pizzas are assembled and baked, including many scenes taken from actual PR restaurants rather than taken solely to create videos for marketing purposes, and I did not see anything added to the skins or rims. However, Pod4477 may know if any of the PR pizzas he has purchased had anything added to the skins or rims, including to the rims after baking. Of course, it is possible that some form of butter or a derivative thereof, or even an artificial form thereof, is added to the PR doughs at its commissary.

However, Scott's post on the addition of some form of butter or even an artificial butter flavor got me to thinking about his idea. In that vein, I recalled that Domino's uses a Natural Butter Flavor to its HANDMADE PAN CRUST, at a rate of less than 2%. The dough formulation in question can be seen at:

https://www.dominos.com/en/pages/content/nutritional/ingredients.jsp

When I saw the use of a natural butter flavor by Domino's, I wondered what a "natural butter flavor" really is and how it is constituted. I assumed that it most likely not just real butter in Domino's case since it would have been simple enough for them to just say "butter". So, I did some searching. That turned up a variety of products called "natural butter flavor" or "natural butter flavoring". One example of such a product, from KitchenKrafts, is here:

https://www.kitchenkrafts.com/product/natural-butter-flavor-8-oz/s

As can be seen from the ingredients statement, the KitchenKrafts natural butter flavor product comprises:

Water, diacetyl and steam distillates of fermented dairy products, propylene glycol, processed butterfat, xanthan gum.

Sounds yummy.

I had also heard of a product called Butter Buds. So I did a search on that product and came up with the following spec sheet:

http://www.andrewsfoodservice.com/nutritionals/2011/89835.pdf

That product has the following ingredients statement:

Maltodextrin, Salt, Dehydrated Butter, Shortening Powder (Soy), Guar Gum, Natural Butter Flavoring, Sodium  Bicarbonate, Turmeric, and Annatto.  ďContains milkĒ

Also, yummy sounding.

And for a vegetable shortening version of a natural butter flavor product, I found this:

https://www.instacart.com/natural-grocers/products/83195-spectrum-organic-all-vegetable-shortening-butter-flavor-24-oz

I then found an article that addressed the butter flavor issue, and that article included the following discussion of the matter:

Butter Me Up
The rich, smooth flavor of butter is another consumer favorite, adding body and depth to cooking sprays, sauces, baked goods, and (of course) popcorn. This flavor arises from the production of diacetyl and acetoin as byproducts of sugar fermentation in the production of cultured dairy products like cultured butter, buttermilk, and sour cream [17].

While small quantities of these compounds can be isolated from these consumer-based dairy products, the very low efficiency of the extraction limits its practicality. Instead, these flavor additives are generally produced through chemical synthesis or industrial fermentation on specialized culture, which is optimized for flavor production, but is not the sort of media people generally like to eat (Figure 3) [18]. When produced through this culturing technique, diacetyl and acetoin are listed as ďnatural butter flavoring,Ē but when they are produced through controlled laboratory synthesis, the very same components are listed as ďartificial butter flavoringĒ [19]
(Source: http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2015/the-flavor-rundown-natural-vs-artificial-flavors/)

For those who are interested, this is how the FDA defines what is a natural flavor or natural flavoring:

The term natural flavor or natural flavoring means the essential oil, oleoresin, essence or extractive, protein hydrolysate, distillate, or any product of roasting, heating or enzymolysis, which contains the flavoring constituents derived from a spice, fruit or fruit juice, vegetable or vegetable juice, edible yeast, herb, bark, bud, root, leaf or similar plant material, meat, seafood, poultry, eggs, dairy products, or fermentation products thereof, whose significant function in food is flavoring rather than nutritional. (Source: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=501.22)

Having read and reread this thread, one of the things that also came through to me was the insistence by Anthony that their products be of the highest quality and where freshness was also an important component of the PR pizzas and their business. So, I tend to think that he would not like or approve the use of the products as discussed above. But I am fairly confident that he would approve of using pure butter. But the use of butter and its positive qualities would have been a good and valuable selling point, and he would have highlighted those qualities as part of the PR marketing program. From what I learned on this thread, that did not happen.

This still leave open the possibility of Pod4477 using butter in some form, whether in addition to the cheese or as part of the dough as a substitute for a part of the fat content of the dough. Those possibilities would be real yummy, not fake yummy.

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: foreplease on January 06, 2019, 03:52:59 PM
Also possible in 1926 yummy.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 06, 2019, 05:15:53 PM
Also possible in 1926 yummy.

Tony,

It is quite likely that the pizzas made by Pizzeria Regina in 1926 were of high quality. At that time, it was likely that the cheeses used for pizzas were fresh and based on what immigrants from Italy made using unpasteurized (raw) milk. But here in the US it was a fior di latte mozzarella cheese made from cow's milk rather than buffalo milk.

It was not until around the end of World War II, and into the 1950s, that pizza started to become very popular, and that popularity gave rise to the production of packaged mass-produced mozzarella cheeses as we understand them today, using pasteurized milk, cheese cultures, salt and enzymes. In 1926, there were quite a few flours available for baking use, so that should not have been a problem. And the flours may have been more natural with better nutritional value. And since the only forms of yeast available in 1926 were most likely fresh yeast and wild yeast, it is likely that the doughs were fermented at room temperature and that developed a lot of fermentation byproducts that contributed nicely to the final results in terms of taste, flavor, color, texture and aroma.

Today, there has been a recent movement, spurred largely by Millennials and GenZ'rs, to more natural ingredients, including non-GMO and organic ingredients. One could argue that that is what existed back in the 1920's when there were virtually no chemical additives or preservatives added to foods. But, in 1926, the population in the US was only 121,767,000 people. So, it was inevitable that a lot of things would have to be done to the food supply, both in terms of technology and food production, to be able to feed a growing population which, according to the US National Debt Clock, at http://www.usdebtclock.org/, now stands at 328,277,503, with a new birth being added to this number about every 15 seconds. It would be very difficult to make pizza on a large scale using the methods and ingredients of the 1920s. We had to give up some yumminess :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on January 06, 2019, 09:24:57 PM
Very good points being discussed here and it makes me really happy to see it still going on!  Peter, I really liked reading about your yeast and butter flavoring points.  I still need to get pizza in Chelsea so thank you for reminding me!  I also wonder how the brewers yeast would taste if I had fermented it longer vs commercial IDY.  Commercial IDY fermented beautifully, but I wonder if it could even be better.  I also do wonder about their flour too.  Scott, very cool you got some cheese too.  Which location did you get it from and was it pretty dry/non-clumping?  The sample I got resembled commercial anti-caked shredded cheese more than when I shred it myself.  When I shred it myself it always feels soft and clumps a lot, but theirs didn't clump, but maybe this is just really dry mozzarella from being low moisture loaves.  Norma, your testing is very important as well because it does confirm that that commercial Empire/Great Lakes is not very buttery.  This furthers my suspicion that the Braintree PR is either using higher fat cheese or adding something to it.  With Scott confirming no buttery taste it does seem like it could be a Braintree thing or added to the dough.  All I know for sure is that I was blown away with my melted test of Braintree's cheese.  It was so buttery and salty that through about 5 different taste test sessions, I picked it over my Empire cheese from my Italian Market every time.

I have shifted my focus a bit more to the cheese now, while still keeping the dough in mind.  I'm wondering now if Braintree is putting something on their cheese or the skins as you mentioned, while other locations are not.  Braintree has already been doing things a bit different, such as using less sauce and cheese than they are instructed to, so I wonder if they are adding things.  Something is going on with their pies, but I'm just not sure if the other locations are similar.  When I got my cheese sample it was unlike any cheese I had ever tested from commercial food service supply depots or anything locally.  It tasted of high high fat, much like cheddar, and had the oily mouth feel of a butter-like additive (like you mentioned a few posts back Peter). When I got my all-cheese pie from Braintree, it reeked of butter or popcorn butter substitutes.  I have also had Braintree employees say that their cheese is buttery and too buttery for them.  Something is going on.  Some points I'm thinking of:

1.  North End Pizzas do seem a bit more natural smelling and tasting compared to Braintree.  They also do smell pretty buttery compared to say Papa Ginos or Burtuccis, but I wonder how they compare to the Braintree location.  When I use butter, it does replicate the smell of a North End PR pie and Braintree PR pie.
2.  I wonder if Braintree pies smell and taste more buttery compared to the North End location.
3.  It is possible that it is just a higher fat cheese than some of the Sorrento, Polly-O, or Great Lakes at Market Basket.  Maybe the smell is from the nicely fermented dough as mentioned above,  I just keep going back to the employees talking about how the cheese is too buttery for them.
4.  I wonder if a powder or butter flavored oil is being distributed through the cheese at Braintree, because it did seem to have white specks in it.  This could be from shredding though or maybe the cheese is just really dry to begin with and therefore doesn't clump.  This cheese DID NOT clump at all :P
5.  I can only get the PR buttery intense smell from my pizza when adding butter or cheddar cheese.  This is when using either Empire, Great Lakes, Polly-O, or Sorrento Whole Milk Mozzarellas.

In conclusion: My PR cheese sample was similar to the Empire I buy, but butterier and saltier.  PR cheese has a distinct flavor and smell, at least in Braintree, and in my opinion it is miles butterier than every pizza cheese being used on pizza in MA.  Once you notice the butter flavor it almost becomes overwhelmingly flavorful to the point that it feels fake and artificial.  I still like it, but it starts tasting like movie theatre popcorn oil.  I also haven't seen anything being brushed on the skins as they are opening them, but it could always be done before they are put in the plastic containers. 

I do think back to Pizza Shark's mention of aging their cheese.  This may also be the key here, but as Norma and I have pointed out, I haven't seen much difference when aging our cheese and the sample from PR did not seem super yellow.  My Empire sample was aged though so maybe PR's was aged too, but my aging had NO WHERE near the buttery flavor of PR's.  Maybe they aren't aging it anymore, or maybe something is being added.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: scott r on January 07, 2019, 11:11:51 AM
I got my cheese sample from the Allston location.   It was definitely shredded in house from blocks.   They use a fairly dry cheese (empire is not as wet as say a poly-o aged mozzarella) so I think that helps a lot to keep it from clumping. 
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: vtsteve on January 07, 2019, 11:44:17 AM
If you can only find the bagged, shredded Empire, I've found that it melts just fine. It's a coarse, matchstick-shaped shred (low surface/volume ratio) with minimal anti-caking agent. I've been using the LMWM shredded for a couple of years now, with some hand-shredded cheddar (and/or Muenster) mixed in.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: hammettjr on January 07, 2019, 12:20:09 PM

Cheese:
About a tablespoon of Melted, Unsalted Butter (can use Clarified Butter with water removed, but milk solids and butterfat intact). The milk solids are what we really want.
Method: Pour butter over cheese and mix to incorporate.


I have to admit, I'm tempted to try this

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on January 07, 2019, 12:45:30 PM
scott r,
Cool! I haven't been to that one yet.  I had a feeling their Empire was dryer than the one I bought locally at an Italian market.  Good to know they are shredding in house too.  I'm all about using dryer cheeses now.  I just wonder why Braintree's was way better than my Empire loaf.  It was better in every aspect.  It is possible that it is just a better, fattier cheese that PR gets compared to the local Italian market's Empire loaf, but I can't imagine it would be many grams higher fat.  Maybe it is though, or maybe Braintree is adding something to it.  Something else that puzzles me is why their cheese is much better than other competitors around here such as Papa Ginos, Bertucci's, Papa John's, Pizza Hut, and Dominos.  The only one that seems to come close in the Mozzarella department is Pizza Hut's awesome cheese.  Berts is my least favorite with a very sharp taste to it (seems like a blend with something sharp) and Papa Ginos we know is using a cheddar mozzarella blend anyway.  PR is butterier and more flavorful than even the cheddar blend at Papa Gino's which baffles me.  So that's another reason I feel there might be a difference in fat content between PR and these other places' cheeses or something being added to the cheese. 

vtsteve,
I haven't been able to find bagged Empire unfortunately here, but I do buy the bagged Golden Lakes which might be the same thing.  I believe it is matchstick-shaped shreds.  I do love to mix in cheddar, especially when making Greek style.  Muenster is a really good idea too.  Thank you!  Muenster is delicious.  I used a little Great Lakes shredded on some chicken parm the other day and it was very good!

hammettjr,
I found it to be the best way to incorporate butter.  I got the idea of using butter from Pizza Shark, but I just wasn't good at spreading it out on the pizza evenly.  I'm not sure if it is good to heat it up first, but I think as long as it doesn't burn, it's fine. Removing the water is something I don't always do, but always helps on pizza or popcorn.  I found using only the butterfat was lacking, so I always add the milk solids too.  The smell is very close to PR and the taste as well.  I also think there is a big difference between commercial butter.  I started making my own, but also use Cabot and even PresŪdent (very euro tasting and almost like movie theatre butter).  I switched from Land o' Lakes to Cabot years ago, but also do like Kerrygold.

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 07, 2019, 02:54:54 PM
Pod4477,

You asked about the possible differences in using IDY instead of fresh yeast. When Tom Lehmann was with the American Institute of Baking, they did tests comparing the relative performance of the three types of yeast--fresh yeast, ADY and IDY. What they found was that they did not detect a difference in their relative performance so long as the proper amount of yeast was used in the three cases and the yeast was handled properly. The relative yeast quantities are reflected in the yeast conversion table at http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm. Despite what they found at the AIB, there are still bakers and pizza operators who prefer using fresh yeast. The reason may be that they grew up with that form of yeast in their businesses and continue to use it out of habit. Some use fresh yeast because it is cheaper than the dry forms.

For a bit more on this subject, see Tom's Reply 1 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46398.msg465506#msg465506

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on January 07, 2019, 09:39:34 PM
Pod4477,

You asked about the possible differences in using IDY instead of fresh yeast. When Tom Lehmann was with the American Institute of Baking, they did tests comparing the relative performance of the three types of yeast--fresh yeast, ADY and IDY. What they found was that they did not detect a difference in their relative performance so long as the proper amount of yeast was used in the three cases and the yeast was handled properly. The relative yeast quantities are reflected in the yeast conversion table at http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm. Despite what they found at the AIB, there are still bakers and pizza operators who prefer using fresh yeast. The reason may be that they grew up with that form of yeast in their businesses and continue to use it out of habit. Some use fresh yeast because it is cheaper than the dry forms.

For a bit more on this subject, see Tom's Reply 1 at:


https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46398.msg465506#msg465506

Peter

Thank you! Very interesting, as I've always wondered this in years past.  I do like to get fresh yeast when I can find it.  So far only Wegman's is a reliable retailer with fresh yeast around here, I believe.  I tried another PR slice today but wasn't able to talk to the people there much, due to customers' orders.  I told them I had fermented it longer and that I had figured out that crust taste.  I asked about the bubbling and they said theirs bubbles a lot this time of year.  I didn't have a chance to ask them other things I wanted to, but I'll try and get back there this week.  It would be cool to have them cook up a dough of mine if they would.  Tasting the pizza once it had sat for about 20 min, it really tasted like Ernesto's in Boston's North End.  Very similar and definitely better than most of the pizza around here.  I do love the local pizza places especially Pizza Hut and Dominos, but I usually get their specialty pies, while I think PR sauce, cheese, and dough do make them my favorite around here for a cheese pizza.  Three things I noted today.

1.  Tomatoes are very robust tasting as always, and I do taste some citric acid from them.  I've been using Pastene Kitchen Ready which is close, but theirs are better. 
2.  Cheese and sauce do turn orange as they meld together and the cheese is very tasty.  I'm sure the 12 min bake time accounts for this as my picture from the North End PR had the cheese looking only white.
3.  The cheese does seem tastier than mine or Papa Ginos.  When I got my all cheese pie you could taste how much better their cheese was even compared to Papa Ginos' cheese sticks.
4.  The crust tasted like mine  ;D and it definitely is contributing to the aroma in a way that other pizzas around here do not.  The sauce also is very robust smelling and tasting.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on January 16, 2019, 11:46:25 AM
So I noticed in my last taste test of Regina, that after about 20 minutes the taste got better, although the pizza got too cold. I always find that I enjoy the flavors more as the pizza cools just a bit (usually around 5-7 min.).  Now by the time I bring Ernestoís home from the North End, itís about 30 min and interestingly enough the 20 min cooled PR ended up tasting exactly like Ernestoís, sauce and cheese-wise. I guess I never noticed it because itís been a while since I had slices from both establishments at the same temp.

Itís amazing how the flavor changes even after 5 min. I have a feeling my PR North End slices and whole pizzas didnít taste as good at times because I ate them too quickly and piping hot. I now prefer to let the slice sit for at least 5-7 min. But with all that said, does anyone know what Ernestoís is using for their sauce and cheese? Iím willing to bet itís pretty similar to PR. Those two have always been my two favorites.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on January 22, 2019, 11:19:41 PM
I made 4 doughs, 10 days ago.  Made all of them exactly the same way, except for using brewers yeast in one of them.  All had .20% yeast and 10% La Spagnola Vegetable/Olive Oil Blend.  I cooked 3 of them last night, at the 9 day cold ferment mark.  I have 1 dough left over for tomorrow, which will be fermenting for a total of 11 days.  I noticed one of the doughs (the one that had the brewer's dry yeast) had black specks of dead yeast in it.  I made these doughs smaller to test my theory of PR North End using 500-560g for their 10" and 16" pizzas.  I also didn't let the doughs temper that well.  The flavor was very similar to my pizza a couple of weeks ago, although I felt the 9 day dough could have fermented a bit longer.  It didn't seem to bubble like it did a couple of weeks ago, but that could have been from tempering it correctly that week and the temps being about 50F here in MA.  It's been colder and maybe that is why my doughs didn't have the bubbling.  I'm also suspecting it's because I didn't really open these doughs into skins like I do a 16" pizza.  The result was very similar to PR North End 10" pie and I suspect that all they're doing differently with their 10" pies compared to their 16" pie is not opening them more.  It ends up coming out like a Domino's or Pizza Hut Pan Pizza as it's very doughy and high.  Medford location must be using a dough mold as their 10" comes out very thin and exactly like a Papa Gino's 10" pizza I got.  Both are identical and backed up by the fact that I saw Papa Gino's using dough molds a couple weeks ago.  I suspect the North End location uses roughly the same dough amounts for speed and simplicity.  I could be wrong, but 500g made a perfect, bread replica of the North End 10" pies. 

Also, the cheese pizza clone tasted exactly like PR and Ernesto's after sitting for a while and after sitting for a day.  I believe the different tastes of the cheese and sauce were from different temperature tests.  Even 5 min differences really do change the taste, and all my tests were hindered by the fact that I had to travel to pick up PR and Ernesto's slices.  I made a Sausage peppers onions 14" pizza, a 10" cheese pizza, and a 10" CPK BBQ Chicken Pizza with these 3 doughs.  I believe they all had the dough flavor I'm after, but could have fermented longer or maybe I just cooked them before tempering them properly since I was in a rush.  We know PR lets them sit near the oven, so tomorrow I will let my final dough temper my regular 2 hours at 85F oven temp.

Note: 1st pie was cooked in a deep dish pan, in the home oven at 485F, with crusted flour on the rim to replicate the North End location
2nd pie was cooked on a steel, in the home oven at 485F, with crusted flour on the rim
3rd pie was cooked on a steel, in the home oven at 485F, without any flour crusted on the rim

The home oven replicates the Braintree location with a lot of Maillard reaction almond brown crusts, but the Uuni Pro is required to replicate the North End location as much as possible.  Looking at the pics again, I noticed the 2nd cheese pie does have a lot of bubbling.  It does look quite similar to the bubbles on some Braintree location pictures.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on March 01, 2019, 01:28:12 AM
So I kinda got some info and I shouldn't say where I got it from, but the info is that my portions were a bit off.  I believe there is more water than salt, more salt than yeast, and more yeast than oil.  So if there is more yeast than oil, then it means there is way less oil than I suspected, and more yeast than the .20%.  I believe this explains why it only takes them 3-7 days to ferment and me about 11-12 days.  It also may explain why there's is a bit more flavorful than mine.  So if there is an assumed 1.8-2% salt, then would yeast be around 1% and oil .5%?
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: jsaras on March 01, 2019, 09:33:45 AM
So I kinda got some info and I shouldn't say where I got it from, but the info is that my portions were a bit off.  I believe there is more water than salt, more salt than yeast, and more yeast than oil.  So if there is more yeast than oil, then it means there is way less oil than I suspected, and more yeast than the .20%.  I believe this explains why it only takes them 3-7 days to ferment and me about 11-12 days.  It also may explain why there's is a bit more flavorful than mine.  So if there is an assumed 1.8-2% salt, then would yeast be around 1% and oil .5%?

Thatís a heck of a lot of yeast
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on March 02, 2019, 02:11:20 AM
Thatís a heck of a lot of yeast

Yup I was thinking that.   This is a very reliable source and I can confirm this ratio to be correct.  Idk if my percentages are correct, but having water, salt, yeast, oil must mean that there is more yeast than oil but less than salt.  The oil is the part that makes me think that there might be more than .20% yeast.  I guess there could be .10% oil but I'm guessing around maybe 1% or less of oil, which is much less than what I was using before.  There is also bromate but we knew that.  What ratio do you guys think?
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on March 04, 2019, 02:52:56 AM
Follow up: So I made a Scali bread with 1% yeast and it came out very good.  I suspected it would taste yeasty but it wasn't. I'm going to do some test doughs with 1% yeast and see how they ferment in 7 days. 

Peter what do you think of the latest news regarding the yeast being listed before the oil?  I suppose there could still be .20% yeast but then wouldn't oil have to be .20% or lower?  By using more yeast in a cold fermented dough, would that increase the flavors over the 7 days compared to less yeast, and also would it take longer for the yeast to die if there is more?  I suspect the reason for there intense flavors is maybe that they are using more yeast than me and therefore more residual flavors left over from the cold ferment.

I've also had very good results lately with the tomatoes and cheese.  I believe the under melting and undercooking of the pizza had a lot to do with it and making sure it sits for 5 min to replicate the PR taste tests.  Mine is very very close now, but I just wonder about the dough.  Also there is nothing else in the dough, except we don't know exactly what yeast.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 04, 2019, 10:39:43 AM
Peter what do you think of the latest news regarding the yeast being listed before the oil?  I suppose there could still be .20% yeast but then wouldn't oil have to be .20% or lower?  By using more yeast in a cold fermented dough, would that increase the flavors over the 7 days compared to less yeast, and also would it take longer for the yeast to die if there is more?  I suspect the reason for there intense flavors is maybe that they are using more yeast than me and therefore more residual flavors left over from the cold ferment.
Pod4477,

Several thoughts cross my mind.

First, I am assuming that the ordering of ingredients is correct and that the oil has the lowest baker's percent. Since the ingredients statement you have seen is a private one, I am inclined to believe that it is correct. If PR were required by law (the FDA) to provide the ingredients statement on a label, which PR is not, then the ingredients statement would have to be correct.

As for the yeast, I can think of a few possibilities for its placement ahead of the oil. First, it could be fresh yeast, which is equivalent to about three times IDY by weight, or possibly even more if the yeast is a fresh cream yeast (more on this below). So, the number can be on the high side as compared with IDY (or ADY). Second, the "yeast" might be a combination of commercial yeast and dead yeast (aka glutathione). Even if PR were required under law to provide an ingredients statement, according to Tom Lehmann, PR wouldn't have to reveal that dead yeast is used. It can simply say just "yeast". Third, if PR's dough is a frozen dough, it typically would use more yeast, so the number for the yeast could be quite high. Fourth, the amount of yeast can be a normal amount, and more than the oil, if the oil is used somewhere in the processing of the dough balls but not in the dough itself. A trivial amount of oil in the dough would not seem to convey any meaningful value. But it might be needed or useful in a subsidiary sense, such as coating the dough balls with a bit oil. The big pizza chains do not do that but maybe PR, which is a small enterprise, does that.

The use of yeast in an amount greater than the oil is not uncommon. For example, when I was trying to help Norma come up with a frozen dough formulation, I researched the frozen dough balls made by Rich's Foodservice. They commonly use more yeast than oil (my third example above), as you can see from the ingredients statement for a 16-ounce frozen dough ball at:

https://richsfoodservice.com/products/16459/

In the Rich's case, I had a few exchanges with customer service and technical personnel at Rich's and was eventually told that Rich's uses a "fresh cream yeast". That form of yeast is typically delivered to production facilities by the carload (see, for example, the article at http://www.dakotayeast.com/product_cream.html), and it is an inexpensive yeast with about 10% more water than compressed yeast. Unfortunately, I did not get a reason for the soybean oil but if the amount of yeast is on the high side, because it is a more liquid form of yeast, it could allow for a reasonable amount of oil in the dough. Since I was told that they were using "fresh cream yeast", I took that simple statement to rule out the use of dead yeast.

Also, more recently, I saw another example of a crust of a discontinued deep dish pizza that was once made by Domino's that also showed more yeast than oil (soybean oil) but where the dough was not frozen but most likely was kept just below the freezing point. Although Domino's no longer makes the above deep dish product I have set forth below the relevant part of the ingredients statement for the dough portion of the deep dish crust:

Enriched Flour (Wheat Flour, Niacin, Iron, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin Folic Acid), Water, Malt, Sugar, Whey, Malted Barley Flour, Yeast, Soybean Oil. 

I have no idea as to what the soybean oil is intended to do in the above ingredients statement or even the type of yeast used. Domino's makes an enormous number of dough balls in highly automated production facilities and it is unlikely that they are coating the dough balls with a bit of soybean oil. It would be far more credible to assume that maybe the skins at the store level are coated with a bit of soybean oil. If PR were doing the latter, I suspect you might have detected such use at the PR stores but I do not recall seeing that step in any of the videos cited earlier in this thread. But maybe Domino's was also using fresh cream yeast and adding the soybean oil to the dough. In this vein, if you look at the Use rate" of cream yeast as given in the Lallemand document at:

http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_6DRYYE.PDF

If you are able to get more information on the yeast, and especially the specific type and form, and also whether PR freezes their dough balls at any stage despite previous statements to the contrary, that might help demystify the PR ingredients statement.

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on March 04, 2019, 01:53:40 PM
Pod4477,

Several thoughts cross my mind.

First, I am assuming that the ordering of ingredients is correct and that the oil has the lowest baker's percent. Since the ingredients statement you have seen is a private one, I am inclined to believe that it is correct. If PR were required by law (the FDA) to provide the ingredients statement on a label, which PR is not, then the ingredients statement would have to be correct.

As for the yeast, I can think of a few possibilities for its placement ahead of the oil. First, it could be fresh yeast, which is equivalent to about three times IDY by weight, or possibly even more if the yeast is a fresh cream yeast (more on this below). So, the number can be on the high side as compared with IDY (or ADY). Second, the "yeast" might be a combination of commercial yeast and dead yeast (aka glutathione). Even if PR were required under law to provide an ingredients statement, according to Tom Lehmann, PR wouldn't have to reveal that dead yeast is used. It can simply say just "yeast". Third, if PR's dough is a frozen dough, it typically would use more yeast, so the number for the yeast could be quite high. Fourth, the amount of yeast can be a normal amount, and more than the oil, if the oil is used somewhere in the processing of the dough balls but not in the dough itself. A trivial amount of oil in the dough would not seem to convey any meaningful value. But it might be needed or useful in a subsidiary sense, such as coating the dough balls with a bit oil. The big pizza chains do not do that but maybe PR, which is a small enterprise, does that.

The use of yeast in an amount greater than the oil is not uncommon. For example, when I was trying to help Norma come up with a frozen dough formulation, I researched the frozen dough balls made by Rich's Foodservice. They commonly use more yeast than oil (my third example above), as you can see from the ingredients statement for a 16-ounce frozen dough ball at:

https://richsfoodservice.com/products/16459/

In the Rich's case, I had a few exchanges with customer service and technical personnel at Rich's and was eventually told that Rich's uses a "fresh cream yeast". That form of yeast is typically delivered to production facilities by the carload (see, for example, the article at http://www.dakotayeast.com/product_cream.html), and it is an inexpensive yeast with about 10% more water than compressed yeast. Unfortunately, I did not get a reason for the soybean oil but if the amount of yeast is on the high side, because it is a more liquid form of yeast, it could allow for a reasonable amount of oil in the dough. Since I was told that they were using "fresh cream yeast", I took that simple statement to rule out the use of dead yeast.

Also, more recently, I saw another example of a crust of a discontinued deep dish pizza that was once made by Domino's that also showed more yeast than oil (soybean oil) but where the dough was not frozen but most likely was kept just below the freezing point. Although Domino's no longer makes the above deep dish product I have set forth below the relevant part of the ingredients statement for the dough portion of the deep dish crust:

Enriched Flour (Wheat Flour, Niacin, Iron, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin Folic Acid), Water, Malt, Sugar, Whey, Malted Barley Flour, Yeast, Soybean Oil. 

I have no idea as to what the soybean oil is intended to do in the above ingredients statement or even the type of yeast used. Domino's makes an enormous number of dough balls in highly automated production facilities and it is unlikely that they are coating the dough balls with a bit of soybean oil. It would be far more credible to assume that maybe the skins at the store level are coated with a bit of soybean oil. If PR were doing the latter, I suspect you might have detected such use at the PR stores but I do not recall seeing that step in any of the videos cited earlier in this thread. But maybe Domino's was also using fresh cream yeast and adding the soybean oil to the dough. In this vein, if you look at the Use rate" of cream yeast as given in the Lallemand document at:

http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_6DRYYE.PDF

If you are able to get more information on the yeast, and especially the specific type and form, and also whether PR freezes their dough balls at any stage despite previous statements to the contrary, that might help demystify the PR ingredients statement.

Peter

Thank you! I had not thought of those different possibilities.  I wonder exactly what is going on, and if the oil is being added to the skins.  I'm assuming they don't do that in the North End because they are the only ones using a ton of flour on the skins, but I could be wrong.  What I have found from testing is that using 15% oil over 10% really didn't seem to make a difference taste wise.  I normally use 10%, but I may even drop that amount.  I honestly didn't even feel the oil was necessary after making a dough with no oil.  I feel the main flavor is from the cold fermentation and I'm happy I was able to achieve similar results using IDY. 

Very interesting with soybean oil being listed after the yeast in the Dominos and then interesting about Rich's.  It seems to me that it can be very tough to replicate exactly how these big factories implement yeast.  I feel that I really have to go back to when PR was starting out and do things how they would do it, but on a smaller scale, and I feel we are.  Of course I know it's different in a home setting, but I'm actually preferring my pizza to theirs, but I just feel their dough has a bit more flavors.  I will have to do some tests with fresh yeast and maybe increasing the IDY a bit.  Also, I will do a dough with no oil again and ferment it for the 7-12 days.  Now also interesting to note that my best pizza was on New Years day, which was warm here in MA, and ever since then I haven't been able to get the same air bubbling in the dough.  The guys at PR also said their dough was very bubbly that day.  I remember stretching the skin and when I placed in on the counter it was bubblier than normal and then when I placed the tomatoes on it, it bubbled up like crazy.  I say all this because you do see a difference in bubbles there during the warmer months.  I love the look it gives to the pizza.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 04, 2019, 03:54:28 PM
Pod4477,

An important thing to keep in mind is that the amount of yeast, whatever its form and whether or not it includes some dead yeast, must be used in an amount less than the ingredient to its left in the sequence but more than the ingredient to its right in the sequence. So, for example, if 2% salt or sugar is to the left of the yeast in the sequence, then the yeast total should be less than 2%. And if soybean oil is to the right of the yeast in the sequence, the soybean oil should be used at a percent that is less the amount of yeast. As a typical example, a value of soybean oil at around 1.75% would be a common amount of oil to use in a dough of the type you have been playing around with in the course of this thread. It's when you get to an American type of pizza or a Chicago deep-dish type of pizza that the oil amounts go way up.

As for the dead yeast per se, a typical amount to use is around 1-2% of the flour weight. However, you may have a hard time finding a source of dead yeast in small quantities. Most users are the big bakeries. So, in your case, if you want the yeast to be as big a number as possible, you might go with fresh yeast. That will allow you to use more oil if oil is to the right of the yeast in the sequence.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on March 05, 2019, 03:46:06 AM
Pod4477,

An important thing to keep in mind is that the amount of yeast, whatever its form and whether or not it includes some dead yeast, must be used in an amount less than the ingredient to its left in the sequence but more than the ingredient to its right in the sequence. So, for example, if 2% salt or sugar is to the left of the yeast in the sequence, then the yeast total should be less than 2%. And if soybean oil is to the right of the yeast in the sequence, the soybean oil should be used at a percent that is less the amount of yeast. As a typical example, a value of soybean oil at around 1.75% would be a common amount of oil to use in a dough of the type you have been playing around with in the course of this thread. It's when you get to an American type of pizza or a Chicago deep-dish type of pizza that the oil amounts go way up.

As for the dead yeast per se, a typical amount to use is around 1-2% of the flour weight. However, you may have a hard time finding a source of dead yeast in small quantities. Most users are the big bakeries. So, in your case, if you want the yeast to be as big a number as possible, you might go with fresh yeast. That will allow you to use more oil if oil is to the right of the yeast in the sequence.

Peter

Thank you for the breakdown!  I always forget ingredient things honestly, which I shouldn't.  You're very right as that is very important to keep in mind and that's how I came to the 1% yeast possibility. If I use 1.8-2% salt then the yeast has to be less than that for sure.  Now if the oil is 1-2% then maybe the fresh yeast is in this range as well.  So for fresh yeast, it must be in the range of 0-2%.  Now on the lower end of the scale I predict this may be why it took 9-12 days to get the flavors from the long cold ferment.  Since PR claims 3-7, that is why I'm wondering if they are using  a bit more than me.  If I use yeast maybe around 1-2% or .33-.75% IDY, I suspect I may get desired results around 7 days. 

As for the dead yeast, you're right and I should probably focus on only the yeast that die during the process as PR has claimed.  I've seen some black specks as they said, which I was happy about.  Overall I suspect that the fridge will slow down the fermentation, but I should see more CO2 with the more yeast I use, and those flavors from the alcohol may increase. 
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 05, 2019, 01:14:01 PM
Pod4477,

I wouldn't worry about trying to get overly precise baker's percents. Someone would have to give you the actual weights of ingredients and a typical dough ball weight to be able to come up with exact numbers. At this point, you want to get the sequence right in terms of baker's percents. Also, most dough formulations can tolerate a certain amount of variation yet still produce acceptable results. For example, if a dough formulation calls for 2% oil and you use 1% oil, or if the dough formulation calls for 1.75% salt and you use 1.50% or 2% salt, you are not likely to be able to tell the difference. My practice is to work around the amount of salt when trying to determine the weights and baker's percents of the other critical ingredients. And for the salt, I typically use a range of 1.75-2%. In your case, you might be able to get a rough idea on the amount of salt when you taste just the crust. If it is salty to the palate, that might suggest that the salt is on the high end of the range, or maybe even higher if the crust is overly salty. 

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on March 07, 2019, 04:03:20 AM
Pod4477,

I wouldn't worry about trying to get overly precise baker's percents. Someone would have to give you the actual weights of ingredients and a typical dough ball weight to be able to come up with exact numbers. At this point, you want to get the sequence right in terms of baker's percents. Also, most dough formulations can tolerate a certain amount of variation yet still produce acceptable results. For example, if a dough formulation calls for 2% oil and you use 1% oil, or if the dough formulation calls for 1.75% salt and you use 1.50% or 2% salt, you are not likely to be able to tell the difference. My practice is to work around the amount of salt when trying to determine the weights and baker's percents of the other critical ingredients. And for the salt, I typically use a range of 1.75-2%. In your case, you might be able to get a rough idea on the amount of salt when you taste just the crust. If it is salty to the palate, that might suggest that the salt is on the high end of the range, or maybe even higher if the crust is overly salty. 

Peter

Sorry! I forgot to reply!  Thank you; very helpful and wise advice.  I sometimes tend to get too caught up in percentages.  I feel that PR is on the salty side, because I'm so used to salt, and when I eat their pizza, I tend to not need any salt.  I'd say my crust is pretty close, as both taste very close, but I will have to do another side by side, now that I got the fermentation down.  I added a bit more salt to the tomatoes and it seemed to get closer to PR, but since I'm so tolerant of salt, it can be tough for me to test.  I find that I'm so far gone, that if I don't need to add salt, then the food is quite salty :-D.  I should do a test thought to see how salty my crust is to PR.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on March 10, 2019, 01:00:25 AM
I made two doughs yesterday in the food processor: one with .67% IDY/1.75% vegetable-olive oil blend, and one with .375% IDY/1.75% vegetable-olive oil blend.  I am a bit nervous that the .67% IDY dough will taste yeasty, but it seems to line up with PR possibilities.  Between the .67% IDY (1.8% Fresh Yeast equivalent) and the .375% IDY (1% Fresh Yeast equivalent), I'm curious to see how they compare, and how long it takes for the fermentation to yield the awesome flavors.  I have a friend coming over to try them Friday, so I hope the flavors are there by then :-D
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Bogy on March 18, 2019, 10:35:02 PM
Greet work , and I'd like to know your last results about yeast ratio to get the perfect taste between 3-7 days !
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on March 19, 2019, 01:12:38 PM
Greet work , and I'd like to know your last results about yeast ratio to get the perfect taste between 3-7 days !

Thank you! Sorry I forgot to post them last night.  I have found that using .375% IDY and .67% IDY both yielded similar results, but that 9.5 days seemed to be better than 6 days, for flavor.  My test wasn't the best, as I cooked the .375% IDY dough on day 6 and the .67% IDY at day 9.5.  What I found was that both doughs had no yeast taste at all, but the .67% IDY dough did have better and more flavor than the .375% IDY dough.  This seems consistent with my other tests, as 9 days seemed to be the minimum time for those amazing flavors to happen.  I made two more doughs, both using .675% IDY and now I will cook one at day 5 or 6, and one at day 9 or 10.  I think that will be a better test, as I can see how using .67% IDY dough tastes as the days increase.  I was happy to see that the long cold ferment took away all of the bad yeast taste that has happened from using .67% IDY in same day doughs, in the past.  I did notice a lot of dead yeast/black specks on the two doughs, and more yeast activity in the .67% IDY dough.  The dough is has good flavors at 6 days, but seemed even better after 9 days, despite the different yeast amounts.  I'm curious how PR tastes so good at 7 days?  According to their ingredients, they aren't adding anything besides flour, water, yeast, salt and oil; so it must be the cold ferment. 

On another note, my bake yesterday made me realize something: the difference between the orange looking pizza and the white and red looking pizza.  Using flames above the pizza cooked it so fast that the cheese didn't melt enough to cause that beautiful melding of cheese and sauce into an orange NY pizza.  The crust was still awesome, but I have found that using steady flameless 500-600F heat cooks the best with low moisture mozzarella.  Whenever I try to cook it in more of a Neapolitan way, this cheese doesn't melt as well, and just gets the hardness to it.  Funny thing is that I've seen this many times at PR.  It's 50/50 for me getting an orange pizza and getting a white and red pizza. 

I might even make 12 doughs and cook one each day from day 3-14.  I'd love to see how the flavors change.  I'm sort of starting that already by making a Lucali style dough after about 15 hours, today.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Bogy on March 19, 2019, 07:38:16 PM
Thanks a lot for your reply  :)
Greet work with important results and i'm waiting for your next  :pizza: experiment results

and for your question how they do it in 3-7 days?
Unfortunately, i didn't know but i can share some ideas with you
1- using more yeast and see what happens at 3-7 days (as 1% or 1.25%)
2- ferment your dough at higher controlled cold temperature (50f or 60f) ... as i saw some people ferment their dough at 60f for 48 hrs and they said they had more better taste than ferment at 40f refrigerator
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on March 21, 2019, 12:10:40 AM
Thanks a lot for your reply  :)
Greet work with important results and i'm waiting for your next  :pizza: experiment results

and for your question how they do it in 3-7 days?
Unfortunately, i didn't know but i can share some ideas with you
1- using more yeast and see what happens at 3-7 days (as 1% or 1.25%)
2- ferment your dough at higher controlled cold temperature (50f or 60f) ... as i saw some people ferment their dough at 60f for 48 hrs and they said they had more better taste than ferment at 40f refrigerator

Thank you!  I'm excited to see the results this week.  Those are really good ideas thank you!  I will try them as much as I can.  I have a small fridge that might be perfect for fermenting dough!  I will have to control the temp in it somehow but I'm sure the small fridges don't get that cold.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on March 26, 2019, 02:04:15 AM
So did a side by side taste test of 3 popular pizza joints in Boston.  PR, Ernestos, and Rina's.  Rina's is new I believe, and they use a WFO.  I bought cheese slices from all three and was amazed at the results, ordered from worst to first.

3.  Rina's: Rina's was cut as a square slice (kind of like a Chicago thin) but was made in the WFO.  The cheese and sauce were good with a bit of orange color from the cheese and sauce, but the dough/cornicione tasted bland and very similar to what I made a year ago.  It just lacked the fermented taste.

2.  Ernestos: Very similar to PR, with a very good cheese and sauce.  They use a ton of semolina on the entire dough ball and ends up showing most on the cornicione.  The pizza has nice color on it and the slice had that orange color with the cheese and sauce.  The flavor tasted like it had a bit of a biga in it or it was fermented longer than the Rina's one.  I'd say it's very similar to most NY slices and each slice is two 18" pizza slices which is nice.

1.  PR:  PR sauce and cheese are the best, but not much better than Ernestos.  I did notice the beautiful orange color on the slice and the cornicione and bottom of the slice were awesomely colored, but honestly didn't look much different than mine.  The main thing was the overwhelming sweet smell of fermentation and it's definitely from the dough.  It smelled basically like mine did on New Year's day, but just amplified. I believe the cheese and sauce are very good, but a lot of the sweet taste comes from the fermentation by products.  I'd say my dough is close, but theirs just has more intense flavors, but most likely the same flavor.  I knew on NYD, that the smell and taste was basically the same. 

PR dough is so good that there is almost no comparison to any pizza dough around here.  So now I wonder how to amplify mine to the level's of PR.  Since I don't have to worry about any bad yeast taste after 7-9 days, I wonder if I should try equal amounts of yeast and salt this week.  Since 2% is the max amount of yeast according to the ingredients list I should try it.  Another user suggested varying the CF fridge temp.  I will also try fresh yeast for fun and I know it probably takes around the 7-9 days to get the pungency of PR.  I'd say the North End PR basically has the same dough as the Braintree location and others, just with a better oven.  I will have to do a side by side test of PR and mine as well.  My two doughs are at 6 days CF by today.  After my findings, I'd say they will need longer, but I should cook one up today just to see.  The other one I will wait until 10-12 days.  I wonder if more yeast will give me the more intense byproduct taste.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Bogy on March 26, 2019, 09:55:40 PM
i have passion for seeing your  :pizza: dough results ... go on  :)
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on March 27, 2019, 12:24:53 AM
i have passion for seeing your  :pizza: dough results ... go on  :)

I'm happy you and others are interested in my tests and I'm planning on cooking one of the doughs tomorrow.  After tasting PR, I realize that 6 days will probably not be enough.  9 days for my setup seems like the minimum.  I really think more yeast or different CF fridge temps may help intensity results, or leaving the dough in the fridge for longer.  I'm thinking of buying a PR slice tomorrow if I cook one of the doughs.  I think tomorrow is supposed to be nice out, as using my oven in the rain is tough.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on March 28, 2019, 09:20:16 PM
So I made my .67% IDY dough from 3/19 at 1 AM, today 3/28 at 5PM. While the dough tastes very similar, I think it needed to ferment a bit more. I did a side by side test today and it was very close. I noticed a few things during the side by side test:
1.  Their tomatoes are a bit saltier and brighter than my KR tomatoes.
2.  Their cheese is better than my Galbani LMWMM.
3.  Their raw dough flat disc at Braintree had a lot more dead yeast specs in it (theirs had A TON)
4.  I think the flavor and smell of the crust was pretty similar between both mine and theirs today.
5.  Mine was a lot more NY looking with less cheese and orange color. Theirs looks more like a Dominos pizza  with much less sauce than mine and more (less melted) cheese.
6.  Their sauce has less liquid to it, and they use less of it. It looks mite like just peels and tomato, with less liquid. This is at Braintree though. In the North End they use 10oz cheese and 10oz sauce.
7.  Their thickness factor is higher than mine. Mine today was 0.087717 with 500g, but theirs must be higher and more like 560-600g.

My pizza is all of the pics except the last one in the car. That one is PR Braintree. I burnt one side of my pizza, but that can happen with the Ooni Pro sometimes as the fire was very hot, and by the time itís ready to rotate it can burn.

I have a strange feeling they are aging their dough more than 7 days due to all the dead yeast I saw in it.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Bogy on March 28, 2019, 10:11:08 PM
Very Interesting test taste ... looks amazing
i think for cheese you can sprinkler some aged hard cheese like parmigiano reggiano or pecorino in addition to some fresh mozzarella
and , i'd like to know what is the difference you can notice between your 0.25% IDY Vs 0.67% IDY  for 9-10 days of fermentation?
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on March 29, 2019, 03:42:19 AM
Very Interesting test taste ... looks amazing
i think for cheese you can sprinkler some aged hard cheese like parmigiano reggiano or pecorino in addition to some fresh mozzarella
and , i'd like to know what is the difference you can notice between your 0.25% IDY Vs 0.67% IDY  for 9-10 days of fermentation?

Thank you so much!! Yup youíre right about the added cheeses. I hesitate to use fresh mozzarella only because it tends to get rubbery and browned with long baked like these. I love it for Neapolitan pizza though, but not as much NY pizza. I also find fresh mozzarella to get very very smelly when it gets moldy. But its an awesome cheese, Iím just picky. PR does use Romano in the sauce, but I omit it for testing so I can taste the tomatoes more, but again itís an awesome idea. PR uses VERY little Romano that I could barely taste it in raw sauce tests. It will probably be something I add more of.

I found there to be not much difference in using the various yeast amounts. Itís been 10 days and my final dough in the fridge is only showing minimal dead yeast. There seemed to be more dead yeast when using less yeast, but it may have been that those less yeasted doughs were in the fridge longer. I found the doughs with more yeast did have more life or air to them during the cold ferment. The dough balls had more visible CO2 puffiness, due to more yeast I assume. But I found the taste when cooked and bubbling of the dough when on the pizza peel to be pretty much the same in all yeast amounts. It seems that bubbling of the opened dough balls increases with each day in the fridge and so does the dead yeast. My fridge temps are around 32-34įF. We open that fridge much less than most people because it is a secondary fridge.

I have a theory/hypothesis. PR might be fermenting the dough longer than 7 days or at higher temps than my 32-34įF for 7 days. The hypothesis is that my dough will reach the PR level of dead yeast and flavor of PR by 11-15 days. I will be doing more tests by using 2% cake yeast in a dough ball I make tomorrow, along with .20% IDY in another and probably .67% IDY in another.

So I want to ask the community:
1.  I have found the dead yeast really shows up most around 10-15 days, so why do you think PR has such visible dead yeast after the 3-7 days they claim? I mean it literally looked like mini poppy seeds, thatís how visible they were.

2.  Iím still new to the science behind CF, so what fridge temps do you think would be best for me? Iím curious as to what most commissaries use and if that makes their fermentation byproducts more apparent after 7 days, rather than my 9-15 days.

Sorry if this was a lot but Iím just really curious. Thank you!
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Bogy on March 29, 2019, 05:53:19 AM
I hope our experts answer your questions ... As you can write post at (Ask the doctor dough)
I read before some catalogs for commercial pizza coolers that work between (36-40)f
There is an active member in Artisan pizza group that told me fermentation at 60f for 48hr is better than fridge by light years , Also you can find that txcraig ferments his dough at 65f for 48hrs

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 29, 2019, 10:49:42 AM
Pod4477,

I agree with Bogy in that the problem you have been having most likely is because your refrigerator temperature is too low. Commercial coolers tend to run between about 33-37 degrees F, which is lower than most home refrigerators, especially those where the door is opened and closed frequently during the course of the day. In my own experiments, which I described in detail in the thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33251#msg33251, I found that if I kept the dough on the very cold side I could get away with using considerably more yeast than I would normally use for a dough made the usual way with a finished dough temperature of around 70-75 degrees F. I think that if you raise your refrigerator temperature you should get a faster fermentation but it can still be several days. In this vein, I do not believe that PR is using a longer fermentation window than Anthony mentioned in one of the videos in this thread. Also, if you look at the second photo in Reply 29 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg36081#msg36081, you will see the spotting of the dough that I experienced in the dough. That dough actually made it out to over 12 days of cold fermentation, even with 0.60% IDY, but the graying of the dough started much earlier than that, as I so noted in Reply 29.

As for the chains that have commissaries, like Domino's and Papa John's, they go to great lengths to keep their dough balls on the cold side at just about all times, from the time they make the dough balls up to the point where the dough balls are used to make pizzas. I believe that their dough balls hover just below freezing, to the point where they are often accused of making frozen dough balls. When these accusations are made, the companies have to go on offense and dispute the claims. You will also often see statements on their websites that their dough is fresh, not frozen. To emphasize the efforts that Domino's undertakes to keep their dough balls cold, see the videos referenced in these posts:

Reply 18 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31354.msg313174#msg313174, and the opening post of the same thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20485.msg202115#msg202115.

In addition to using a warmer refrigerator temperature, you should also keep in mind that it is also possible to extend the fermentation time by adding the yeast later in the mixing/kneading cycle, for example, once the dough pulls away from the sides of the mixer bowl. You can also use a yeast like ADY but without prehydrating it. In fact, I believe that Papa John's does this, at least at the time when I started my efforts to replicate their dough in a home setting. I have no idea as to whether PR is using either of these methods but, they do work for their intended purpose of extending the fermentation window, even at relatively high yeast quantities.

To the above, I would add that many commissaries, and most notably production facilities that make bread dough, tend to use a cream yeast, which is a more liquid form of fresh yeast, and typically delivered to the facilities by the carload. I tend to doubt that PR is using cream yeast because their volumes are on the low side. Fresh yeast (aka cake yeast or compressed yeast) is also cheaper than IDY and ADY. I believe that PR could be using any one of these forms of yeast.

Peter



Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on March 29, 2019, 02:12:43 PM
I hope our experts answer your questions ... As you can write post at (Ask the doctor dough)
I read before some catalogs for commercial pizza coolers that work between (36-40)f
There is an active member in Artisan pizza group that told me fermentation at 60f for 48hr is better than fridge by light years , Also you can find that txcraig ferments his dough at 65f for 48hrs

Oh wow thank you.  I appreciate your quick response.  My fridge only reaches that range if it's open for a minute.  I should try 60F if I can, maybe with my mini fridge I have.  I am curious to test what the small mini fridges get to for temps.

Pod4477,

I agree with Bogy in that the problem you have been having most likely is because your refrigerator temperature is too low. Commercial coolers tend to run between about 33-37 degrees F, which is lower than most home refrigerators, especially those where the door is opened and closed frequently during the course of the day. In my own experiments, which I described in detail in the thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33251#msg33251, I found that if I kept the dough on the very cold side I could get away with using considerably more yeast than I would normally use for a dough made the usual way with a finished dough temperature of around 70-75 degrees F. I think that if you raise your refrigerator temperature you should get a faster fermentation but it can still be several days. In this vein, I do not believe that PR is using a longer fermentation window than Anthony mentioned in one of the videos in this thread. Also, if you look at the second photo in Reply 29 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg36081#msg36081, you will see the spotting of the dough that I experienced in the dough. That dough actually made it out to over 12 days of cold fermentation, even with 0.60% IDY, but the graying of the dough started much earlier than that, as I so noted in Reply 29.

As for the chains that have commissaries, like Domino's and Papa John's, they go to great lengths to keep their dough balls on the cold side at just about all times, from the time they make the dough balls up to the point where the dough balls are used to make pizzas. I believe that their dough balls hover just below freezing, to the point where they are often accused of making frozen dough balls. When these accusations are made, the companies have to go on offense and dispute the claims. You will also often see statements on their websites that their dough is fresh, not frozen. To emphasize the efforts that Domino's undertakes to keep their dough balls cold, see the videos referenced in these posts:

Reply 18 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31354.msg313174#msg313174, and the opening post of the same thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20485.msg202115#msg202115.

In addition to using a warmer refrigerator temperature, you should also keep in mind that it is also possible to extend the fermentation time by adding the yeast later in the mixing/kneading cycle, for example, once the dough pulls away from the sides of the mixer bowl. You can also use a yeast like ADY but without prehydrating it. In fact, I believe that Papa John's does this, at least at the time when I started my efforts to replicate their dough in a home setting. I have no idea as to whether PR is using either of these methods but, they do work for their intended purpose of extending the fermentation window, even at relatively high yeast quantities.

To the above, I would add that many commissaries, and most notably production facilities that make bread dough, tend to use a cream yeast, which is a more liquid form of fresh yeast, and typically delivered to the facilities by the carload. I tend to doubt that PR is using cream yeast because their volumes are on the low side. Fresh yeast (aka cake yeast or compressed yeast) is also cheaper than IDY and ADY. I believe that PR could be using any one of these forms of yeast.

Peter





Thank you for your quick response as well!  It's funny, I have read your kitchenmaid dough making thread before, but didn't realize that your flattened dough (picture 2) looks exactly like what I saw last night at PR.  I want to replicate your Kitchen Aid method tonight, but I wonder if I could use my food processor or my KA.  Maybe I can use even colder, ice water in the food processor, or if I'm stuck at a finished dough temp of 70-75 in the food processor. 

Couple of questions though first: 
1.  I see your finished dough temp was lower like you said (65.2F), so do you think I should go back to my .20% IDY if I use my regular food processor method (70-75F finished dough temp)?  My main goal is to try to get the spotting at the level you did.  I may have to use my kitchen aid instead of my food processor though, but the only reason I don't is that I don't want to burn out the KA.
2.  Do you know what temp your fridge was at?  I assume it was around the 40F, as your water was around that range.

I will try adding the IDY at the end like you did and maybe even try ADY if I have any left.  So maybe PR is using a colder finished dough temp and getting the spotting around day 3-7, and using warmer fridge temps than mine.  I am also wondering what the yeast amount is that PR uses, but it must be under 2% but more than the amount of oil.  That may not matter though as your KA method seems like a clone of PR.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 29, 2019, 03:43:22 PM
Pod4477,

I will preface my thoughts on what you might do by first talking about how I envision most commissaries work to produce doughs that can last for several days of cold fermentation, a necessity if dough balls are to be delivered to stores twice a week and be able to last for up to eight or nine days. This latter requirement in my opinion necessitates that commissaries do some out-of-the-ordinary things. By that, I mean doing things like using very cold water to make the dough balls so that the finished dough temperatures are on the low side, using small amounts of yeast, whatever its form, adding the yeast later in the dough making/kneading process, and otherwise take steps to keep the dough balls cold for as long as possible. Whether it is PR or some other commissary-based company, I think they use basic commercial coolers and related cooling facilities. And they are bound to use standard mixing equipment designed for commissary-based operation.

If we now shift gears and consider how a food processor might be able to replicate what I have discussed above, the first matter you have to consider is how you can achieve similar results using a food processor when that machine, as good as it is, has a considerably higher friction factor than a standard home stand mixer. It may even be higher than the mixers used by professionals. For example, I was once told by a Papa John's R&D employee that their mixers had a friction factor of about 20-23 degrees F. So, to equalize matters when using a food processor, which I estimate to have a friction factor of over 30, you will have to use colder water or have a refrigerator that gets down pretty low in temperature, or possibly a combination of both. So, your refrigerator operating at about 32-34 degrees F and dedicated to your dough balls may be a good thing in your case. Also, if you are careful, you may be able to knead the dough by using the pulse feature more than full operating speed to keep the frictional heat down as much as possible.

Another option in your case would be to use less yeast but I would rather use a sufficient amount of yeast to allow for adequate fermentation, as I discovered in my own low-temperature experiments. In your case, I think you could use about 0.60% IDY or maybe something between 0.60% and 0.20%. I also think that you can use ADY dry, that is, not prehydrated, and you perhaps can add it later in the dough making/kneading process. As I previously noted, I believe that is what PJ does, or so I thought at the time I worked on the PJ clones. So, it would not be out of the realm of possibility for PR to do something similar.

You are correct about my refrigerator temperature. It generally runs a bit under 40 degrees F although the dough balls can be a bit cooler toward the back of my refrigerator away from the door as far as possible. I have also experimented with using ice in with the water to get the water even colder but I found that if the water is too cold the dough doesn't mix or knead effectively.

In cases such as the above, the best way to learn is to just make different dough balls with different characteristics but still within a fairly narrow range of tests and keeping as many of the variables the same as to allow you to more effectively compare the results. Also, keep good notes of what you do.

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on March 29, 2019, 11:30:35 PM
Pod4477,

I will preface my thoughts on what you might do by first talking about how I envision most commissaries work to produce doughs that can last for several days of cold fermentation, a necessity if dough balls are to be delivered to stores twice a week and be able to last for up to eight or nine days. This latter requirement in my opinion necessitates that commissaries do some out-of-the-ordinary things. By that, I mean doing things like using very cold water to make the dough balls so that the finished dough temperatures are on the low side, using small amounts of yeast, whatever its form, adding the yeast later in the dough making/kneading process, and otherwise take steps to keep the dough balls cold for as long as possible. Whether it is PR or some other commissary-based company, I think they use basic commercial coolers and related cooling facilities. And they are bound to use standard mixing equipment designed for commissary-based operation.

If we now shift gears and consider how a food processor might be able to replicate what I have discussed above, the first matter you have to consider is how you can achieve similar results using a food processor when that machine, as good as it is, has a considerably higher friction factor than a standard home stand mixer. It may even be higher than the mixers used by professionals. For example, I was once told by a Papa John's R&D employee that their mixers had a friction factor of about 20-23 degrees F. So, to equalize matters when using a food processor, which I estimate to have a friction factor of over 30, you will have to use colder water or have a refrigerator that gets down pretty low in temperature, or possibly a combination of both. So, your refrigerator operating at about 32-34 degrees F and dedicated to your dough balls may be a good thing in your case. Also, if you are careful, you may be able to knead the dough by using the pulse feature more than full operating speed to keep the frictional heat down as much as possible.

Another option in your case would be to use less yeast but I would rather use a sufficient amount of yeast to allow for adequate fermentation, as I discovered in my own low-temperature experiments. In your case, I think you could use about 0.60% IDY or maybe something between 0.60% and 0.20%. I also think that you can use ADY dry, that is, not prehydrated, and you perhaps can add it later in the dough making/kneading process. As I previously noted, I believe that is what PJ does, or so I thought at the time I worked on the PJ clones. So, it would not be out of the realm of possibility for PR to do something similar.

You are correct about my refrigerator temperature. It generally runs a bit under 40 degrees F although the dough balls can be a bit cooler toward the back of my refrigerator away from the door as far as possible. I have also experimented with using ice in with the water to get the water even colder but I found that if the water is too cold the dough doesn't mix or knead effectively.

In cases such as the above, the best way to learn is to just make different dough balls with different characteristics but still within a fairly narrow range of tests and keeping as many of the variables the same as to allow you to more effectively compare the results. Also, keep good notes of what you do.

Peter

Thank you!  Awesome info.  So would the food processor finished dough temps (70-80F) and then going into a 32-34F fridge equal similar results to a 64F final dough temp and a 40F fridge?  If not I could do the very cold water and 32F fridge temps.  I had wondered what final dough temp the commissaries use, so thank you.  If I have to, I can use my KA.  I just love the quick nature of the FP and it saves my KA motor.  How exactly would I incorporate the .20-.60% IDY or equivalent ADY to the dough in the food processor?  Since it comes together in 15-30 seconds, I'm wondering if it should be righter after it comes together in a ball (15 seconds), or at the very end of the mixing (28 second mark) and then kind of pulse/kead the yeast in by hand for the final 2 seconds.  The timing is not exact but its close to what I've done.  I also want to find some round containers that are the size you have in the KA thread, along with covers for them.  I think that is exactly what I want to do for fridge storage now.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 30, 2019, 10:58:23 AM
Thank you!  Awesome info.  So would the food processor finished dough temps (70-80F) and then going into a 32-34F fridge equal similar results to a 64F final dough temp and a 40F fridge?  If not I could do the very cold water and 32F fridge temps.  I had wondered what final dough temp the commissaries use, so thank you.  If I have to, I can use my KA.  I just love the quick nature of the FP and it saves my KA motor.  How exactly would I incorporate the .20-.60% IDY or equivalent ADY to the dough in the food processor?  Since it comes together in 15-30 seconds, I'm wondering if it should be righter after it comes together in a ball (15 seconds), or at the very end of the mixing (28 second mark) and then kind of pulse/knead the yeast in by hand for the final 2 seconds.  The timing is not exact but its close to what I've done.  I also want to find some round containers that are the size you have in the KA thread, along with covers for them.  I think that is exactly what I want to do for fridge storage now.
Pod4477,

I am not sure I can do the kind of calculation your suggestion requires but my gut feel is that I would rather try using cold water and the 32 degrees refrigerator temperature, and I would rather err on the high side for the amount of yeast (ADY), to support adequate fermentation in a very cold environment. As for when to add the ADY, I would do it once the food processor forms a ball around the blade. By analogy, in my case, when I used my basic KitchenAid stand mixer, I would start by using the paddle and add the yeast once the dough cleared the sides of the bowl. At that point, I would switch to the C-hook. So, for a food processor, I would try to add the yeast once the dough forms around the blade. As you might guess, some experimentation is likely to be necessary to get to the best solution.

FYI, some time ago, I wrote about my methods in using a food processor, at Reply 1 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2189.msg19291#msg19291

This Serious Eats article may also be useful to you:

https://slice.seriouseats.com/2011/02/pizza-protips-kneading-converting-recipes-for-food-processor.html

And this thread may offer up some more tips:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12877.msg125013#msg125013

If you are able to master your food processor to produce a credible PR clone dough, that will be a very good thing.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on March 30, 2019, 09:01:53 PM
Pod4477,

I am not sure I can do the kind of calculation your suggestion requires but my gut feel is that I would rather try using cold water and the 32 degrees refrigerator temperature, and I would rather err on the high side for the amount of yeast (ADY), to support adequate fermentation in a very cold environment. As for when to add the ADY, I would do it once the food processor forms a ball around the blade. By analogy, in my case, when I used my basic KitchenAid stand mixer, I would start by using the paddle and add the yeast once the dough cleared the sides of the bowl. At that point, I would switch to the C-hook. So, for a food processor, I would try to add the yeast once the dough forms around the blade. As you might guess, some experimentation is likely to be necessary to get to the best solution.

FYI, some time ago, I wrote about my methods in using a food processor, at Reply 1 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2189.msg19291#msg19291

This Serious Eats article may also be useful to you:

https://slice.seriouseats.com/2011/02/pizza-protips-kneading-converting-recipes-for-food-processor.html

And this thread may offer up some more tips:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12877.msg125013#msg125013

If you are able to master your food processor to produce a credible PR clone dough, that will be a very good thing.

Peter

Thank you so much.  I was thinking of trying the cold water and the 32F temp fridge first.  It's good to know the yeast taste will go away as it ferments, which I never knew.  After a few days it seems that the yeasty taste is gone.  I'll definitely add the ADY later on.  Do you think there is a big difference in using ADY over IDY?  Is it just that it works slower than IDY and that helps flavor development?  Makes sense.  Thank you for the links.  I'm going to study them along with your KA dough and I plan on making a KA one and a FP one.  I'll be happy if I can make a credible PR dough using FP alone.  Now I love my KA, but do you believe what Kenji said at Serious Eats, about the oxidization of the dough happening in small batches of stand mixer doughs, and that's why he uses the food processor?  I'm sure you guys have heard it before, but I believe he claims that in bigger batches only a small percentage of the dough actually comes in contact with the air during mixing, but small batches have much more air contact when mixing.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 31, 2019, 10:56:23 AM
Thank you so much.  I was thinking of trying the cold water and the 32F temp fridge first.  It's good to know the yeast taste will go away as it ferments, which I never knew.  After a few days it seems that the yeasty taste is gone.  I'll definitely add the ADY later on.  Do you think there is a big difference in using ADY over IDY?  Is it just that it works slower than IDY and that helps flavor development?  Makes sense.  Thank you for the links.  I'm going to study them along with your KA dough and I plan on making a KA one and a FP one.  I'll be happy if I can make a credible PR dough using FP alone.  Now I love my KA, but do you believe what Kenji said at Serious Eats, about the oxidization of the dough happening in small batches of stand mixer doughs, and that's why he uses the food processor?  I'm sure you guys have heard it before, but I believe he claims that in bigger batches only a small percentage of the dough actually comes in contact with the air during mixing, but small batches have much more air contact when mixing.
Pod4477,

As between the IDY and ADY, you should get a longer fermentation using the ADY in dry (non-prehydrated) form and if that results in more fermentation byproducts that contribute to better flavor of the finished crust, then the crust will be more enjoyable. I suspect that there may be a point where if the fermentation is too long there may be byproducts of fermentation that are not beneficially flavor contributing and may give off flavor notes to the finished crust.

As for your question about the food processor versus a stand mixer, I could not find Kenji's comments on the operational distinctions in the Serious Eats article I cited. Maybe you are referring to another Kenji Serious Eats article? But setting that aside, I believe that it is possible to harm dough in either a stand mixer or a food processor if the mixing speeds are too high or the dough is kneaded too long. That is one of the reasons why I only used the stir speed when I made doughs using my KitchenAid stand mixer and that I discussed in the thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33251#msg33251. I was also aware of the possibility of the dough being over-oxidized when made at high mixer speeds. The oxidation problem was one that Prof. Raymond Calvel often complained about when French bakers used intensive mixing of the dough at high speeds. See, for example, Reply 72 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11654.msg112154#msg112154

In your case, you may have to make a few doughs using your KA stand mixer and your food processor to achieve the results you are looking for.

Peter

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on April 01, 2019, 01:48:37 AM
Pod4477,

As between the IDY and ADY, you should get a longer fermentation using the ADY in dry (non-prehydrated) form and if that results in more fermentation byproducts that contribute to better flavor of the finished crust, then the crust will be more enjoyable. I suspect that there may be a point where if the fermentation is too long there may be byproducts of fermentation that are not beneficially flavor contributing and may give off flavor notes to the finished crust.

As for your question about the food processor versus a stand mixer, I could not find Kenji's comments on the operational distinctions in the Serious Eats article I cited. Maybe you are referring to another Kenji Serious Eats article? But setting that aside, I believe that it is possible to harm dough in either a stand mixer or a food processor if the mixing speeds are too high or the dough is kneaded too long. That is one of the reasons why I only used the stir speed when I made doughs using my KitchenAid stand mixer and that I discussed in the thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33251#msg33251. I was also aware of the possibility of the dough being over-oxidized when made at high mixer speeds. The oxidation problem was one that Prof. Raymond Calvel often complained about when French bakers used intensive mixing of the dough at high speeds. See, for example, Reply 72 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11654.msg112154#msg112154

In your case, you may have to make a few doughs using your KA stand mixer and your food processor to achieve the results you are looking for.

Peter

Thank you.  I definitely want all the fermentation byproducts I can get.  I'll have to check my ADY stock.  What is the best way to store ADY?  I have been storing my IDY in a bag in the freezer.
That makes sense not to use high speeds and I didn't know that about Prof. Raymond Calvel! I found the Kenji theory on two different pages below:

https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2010/10/new-york-style-pizza.html
and
https://slice.seriouseats.com/2010/10/the-pizza-lab-how-to-make-great-new-york-style-pizza.html

Kenji quote:
"So here's my theory: in order to get a ball of pizza dough to pass the window-pane test, it needs to be kneaded for a relatively long period of time. In a large-scale, New York pizza operation, dough is made in massive 30-40 pound batches. With such a large mass of dough, there's significantly less exposure to oxygen while the dough kneads, as only the dough on the very surface of a rather large ball is exposed, the rest being protected by the sides of the mixing bowl, and by the dough itself. With a small ball of dough in a home mixer, on the other hand, a much higher proportion of the dough is exposed to the flavor-altering effects of air as it mixes.

The result? A dough made in small batches at home oxidizes more, and thus never tastes as good as a dough made in large batches in a pizza parlor.

McGee goes on to suggest that mixing doughs in a food processor might actually be a better method than the stand mixer, something counterintuitive to me, as the stand mixer seems to resemble the gentle action of hand-kneading far more accurately. The idea is that the rapidly rotating blade of a food processor will batter and realign the proteins in the flour much more efficiently than the slow-moving stand mixer. It should give you a window-pane worthy dough in a fraction of the time. Less time kneading means less time oxidizing, and thus better flavor."
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 01, 2019, 02:36:04 PM
Pod4477,

Thanks for the links to the Serious Eats articles and for quoting the pertinent parts that apply to Kenji's position on oxidation of small amounts of dough. About all I can say about this subject is that I try to use my stand mixer and my food processor in ways that do not result in having the doughs pass the window pane test. And the reason is the one that Tom Lehmann has espoused for years, and that is to knead the dough to the point where it takes on a smooth appearance. That is far shy of the window pane stage, which he says is a requirement of bread dough but not pizza dough. See, for example, these posts by Tom:

Reply 5 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=44658.msg448301#msg448301,

Reply 6 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43833.msg441557;topicseen#msg441557,

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=55782.msg561646#msg561646, and

Reply 10 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41869.msg418480#msg418480.

With respect to storage of the ADY, you should be fine using your freezer although some of our members store yeast in the main part of the refrigerator.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on April 01, 2019, 07:32:08 PM
Pod4477,

Thanks for the links to the Serious Eats articles and for quoting the pertinent parts that apply to Kenji's position on oxidation of small amounts of dough. About all I can say about this subject is that I try to use my stand mixer and my food processor in ways that do not result in having the doughs pass the window pane test. And the reason is the one that Tom Lehmann has espoused for years, and that is to knead the dough to the point where it takes on a smooth appearance. That is far shy of the window pane stage, which he says is a requirement of bread dough but not pizza dough. See, for example, these posts by Tom:

Reply 5 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=44658.msg448301#msg448301,

Reply 6 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43833.msg441557;topicseen#msg441557,

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=55782.msg561646#msg561646, and

Reply 10 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41869.msg418480#msg418480.

With respect to storage of the ADY, you should be fine using your freezer although some of our members store yeast in the main part of the refrigerator.

Peter

Np.  I forgot it was just a theory, but something I think about sometimes.  Good point about mixing just shy of the windowpane.  This is because the long cold fermentation takes care of gluten formation correct?  Thank you for the links.  Now, what if the dough is so wet that it never gets a smooth appearance?  I assume it will still have adequate gluten formation anyway from long cold ferments.  Thank you for the ADY recommendation.  I'm planning on storing in fridge or freezer.  Fridge is always easier.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 01, 2019, 08:24:02 PM
Np.  I forgot it was just a theory, but something I think about sometimes.  Good point about mixing just shy of the windowpane.  This is because the long cold fermentation takes care of gluten formation correct?  Thank you for the links.  Now, what if the dough is so wet that it never gets a smooth appearance?  I assume it will still have adequate gluten formation anyway from long cold ferments.  Thank you for the ADY recommendation.  I'm planning on storing in fridge or freezer.  Fridge is always easier.
Pod4477,

Yes, what happens to the gluten during fermentation is what Tom and other professionals call "biochemical gluten development". And that is why you don't knead the dough to the point of passing the windowpane test. As you know, doughs during preparation can end up in all kinds of conditions depending on the recipes and the hydration values and other factors, such as adding fair amounts of oil and other wet ingredients to the dough. So, each type of dough in effect has its own distinct profile. But often doughs that should not be wet become so and, in such cases, one often adds more flour at the bench to achieve the desired end result. Otherwise you have to learn the habits of the doughs. And that is how some pizza makers are able to handle doughs with hydration values in the 70-80% range while newbies usually fail when they try to do the same.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on April 02, 2019, 01:41:45 AM
Pod4477,

Yes, what happens to the gluten during fermentation is what Tom and other professionals call "biochemical gluten development". And that is why you don't knead the dough to the point of passing the windowpane test. As you know, doughs during preparation can end up in all kinds of conditions depending on the recipes and the hydration values and other factors, such as adding fair amounts of oil and other wet ingredients to the dough. So, each type of dough in effect has its own distinct profile. But often doughs that should not be wet become so and, in such cases, one often adds more flour at the bench to achieve the desired end result. Otherwise you have to learn the habits of the doughs. And that is how some pizza makers are able to handle doughs with hydration values in the 70-80% range while newbies usually fail when they try to do the same.

Peter

I really appreciate your sharing of your knowledge and I apologize that I keep asking about things again, such as biochemical gluten development.  I believe we discussed this early on, but I need to remember things more.  I have a suspicion that PR in the North End uses so much bench flour because of the crazy pace and Pizza Shark mentioning that it is a higher hydration dough.  It seems from the pictures that they heavily flour each dough disc, press the gasses out of the middle of the dough (seen by the indent of the fingers making the inner circle), and then cover them with plastic.  That is what I've been doing but on a 2 dough ball scale.  It is a nice way to prep them for opening up of the dough ball and tempers them nicely.  In Braintree they just have the dough in the container and pull it off when needed, but I noticed they do flatten out naturally such as yours did in the round container.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on April 02, 2019, 05:10:18 PM
So Iím currently writing you from the North End PR. I just had a slice of cheese and Iím ordering a Giambatta with Meatballs. Two things I noticed. When you get a slice they of course heat it up, which really adds a beautiful flavor from the oils and tomatoes and cheese dripping off and onto the oven. I noticed the parts of the bottom crust that had the oil stains were very flavorful from cooking again (you can see this on the top part of picture 2ís slice). This is what I was tasting some of the times, but I believe the same is happening on fresh whole pizzas where the cheese and oil are getting scorched and you get that awesome caramelized flavor.

The crust is very similar to sourdough and it is very very soft and tender on the inside. I wonder if I should be using even higher hydration. What do you guys think?  I believe the flavor is just from long cold fermentation, but this seems way more soft than anyone else around.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on April 03, 2019, 03:01:33 AM
Not to post too many replies, but I didnít want to add too much to my last post. I came home and made a pizza right after I ate the Giambatta. I wanted to see if the taste would be similar with mine and PR. I must say, the crust of mine is very very similar to the point that I couldnít even tell which one I was tasting. You can see PR in the North End is making a very pronounced ridge in the dough with their fingers. In Braintree this is often not done. I think that I will start making the ridge for now on, to lock in the sauce that can spill over the edge. My dough has a very similar flavor, but may need some tweaking to get more of the dead yeast and a bit more pronounced flavor, but mine is very close. Iím excited to see how the doughs from Peterís KA or good processor methods work out. I held off until tomorrow because I wanted to test hydration and other things of PR. I really think my 70% effective hydration is very close.

1.  The cheese pizza pictured below is mine, with a dough from 3/19 at 1 AM stored at around 32F. It was cooked on 4/2 at 7 PM with .67% IDY and 1.75% veg. olive oil blend oil. The flavor was very similar to PR and similar grey sourdough-like crumb.
2.  I believe the hydration is similar to PR, but could go up a smidge. Pizza Shark always said it was a very highly hydrated dough and sauce.
3.  The Kitchen Ready tomatoes are not matching PR or Denly Gardens. Definitely will have to go with 7/11 or Tomato Magic in the future.
4.  The Italian Oregano is probably the same one they use, as its subtle and not the regular Greek Oregano. The Italian Oregano package has no botanical name, but itís more along the lines of Sweet Marjoram. Denly Gardens uses a stronger Greek or Sicilian Oregano. PR doesnít use a ton of Oregano, but itís not a strong taste either. Definitely not the taste of Greek pizza so it has to be anything but Greek Oregano Iím assuming.
5.  I plan on doing a total sauce and oregano taste tests over the next few months.

In the pics you can see the ridge on PRís pizza, my cheese pizza, and two crust pieces of mine and PR side by side on my plate. This may be evidence of using dough molds, so I found these video showing one being used at Sbarro: https://youtu.be/QKyf-TDALnw https://youtu.be/WOfYILpkzrE. If itís not a dough mold maybe they are just really good at making the ridge by hand? Do you think its possible to get a similar ridge by hand? I wonder if I can make a dough mold, as well. Thank you guys!
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on April 06, 2019, 03:38:38 AM
Peter,
Do you think I should use the equivalent amount of ADY to IDY or a different amount?  I bought some ADY, but noticed you used less ADY in your tests (.375%).  I only ask because I want to get the dead yeast amounts you got when you used .6% IDY.  I'm planning on making the doughs today.  I feel that I should make one IDY exactly as you have made it with 66% effective hydration, .6%IDY, and 1.75% salt but adjusted for the 500g TF of 0.087717.  The other should be just a hydration tweak of 70% effective hydration, and the last dough should be the ADY dough of either the .375% ADY or .9% ADY (equivalent to my .67% IDY test I did last week).  I'm just not sure how much ADY I should use.  Thank you!
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 06, 2019, 09:46:27 AM
Peter,
Do you think I should use the equivalent amount of ADY to IDY or a different amount?  I bought some ADY, but noticed you used less ADY in your tests (.375%).  I only ask because I want to get the dead yeast amounts you got when you used .6% IDY.  I'm planning on making the doughs today.  I feel that I should make one IDY exactly as you have made it with 66% effective hydration, .6%IDY, and 1.75% salt but adjusted for the 500g TF of 0.087717.  The other should be just a hydration tweak of 70% effective hydration, and the last dough should be the ADY dough of either the .375% ADY or .9% ADY (equivalent to my .67% IDY test I did last week).  I'm just not sure how much ADY I should use.  Thank you!
Pod4477,

I think I would opt for the 0.375% ADY amount. I say this because the IDY/ADY "yeast equivalency" method presumes that the two kinds of yeast are used in accordance with the ways recommended by the yeast producers, and in my case (for example, as discussed at Reply 35 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg37060#msg37060), I added the ADY to the dough in dry form, not prehydrated form. Also, in your case, you may have to tweak the amount of ADY based on the type of machine--stand mixer or food processor--that you plan to use to make your dough and your ability to achieve finished dough temperatures such as I was able to achieve in my experiments. Similarly, the temperature of your refrigerator can be a factor also.

I look forward to your results. I thought that your last pizza as shown in your earlier reply looked quite good and along the lines of a PR pizza.

Somehow I missed your question about the use of a pizza mold. Several years ago, when I was trying to recreate a Papa Gino's dough, I learned that the workers used a mold. However, as I noted in the last paragraph of Reply 336 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8167.msg216215;topicseen#msg216215, some of  the PG workers preferred to open the dough balls completely by hand. Also, in PG's case, the dough balls and skins ended up with some cornmeal in them because cornmeal was used on the bench. That would not be the case with PR's doughs.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on April 07, 2019, 04:06:14 AM
Pod4477,

I think I would opt for the 0.375% ADY amount. I say this because the IDY/ADY "yeast equivalency" method presumes that the two kinds of yeast are used in accordance with the ways recommended by the yeast producers, and in my case (for example, as discussed at Reply 35 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg37060#msg37060), I added the ADY to the dough in dry form, not prehydrated form. Also, in your case, you may have to tweak the amount of ADY based on the type of machine--stand mixer or food processor--that you plan to use to make your dough and your ability to achieve finished dough temperatures such as I was able to achieve in my experiments. Similarly, the temperature of your refrigerator can be a factor also.

I look forward to your results. I thought that your last pizza as shown in your earlier reply looked quite good and along the lines of a PR pizza.

Somehow I missed your question about the use of a pizza mold. Several years ago, when I was trying to recreate a Papa Gino's dough, I learned that the workers used a mold. However, as I noted in the last paragraph of Reply 336 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8167.msg216215;topicseen#msg216215, some of  the PG workers preferred to open the dough balls completely by hand. Also, in PG's case, the dough balls and skins ended up with some cornmeal in them because cornmeal was used on the bench. That would not be the case with PR's doughs.

Peter

Ahh yes that makes sense!  Thank you.  I forgot I'd be using ADY without hydrating and that's why I figured I'd wait for your reply before I make the doughs.  Thank you for saying my last pizza looked good and along the lines of PR, that means a lot to me.  I've had some discouraging tests, so it's reassuring to hear positive things.  I cooked that pizza a bit less to try to match PR pizza that day that was minimally cooked.  One customer even asked them to "cook it" haha.  Lately, I've liked longer bake/darker pies, such as PR says is the way they like to serve it. 

That's fine haha I do mention a million things per post.  I have so many things running through my head when I type.  Thank you for the link.  I'm trying to familiarize myself with molds.  They seem hard to find online, so I wonder if I can just make an extreme indent by hand.  I noticed my local PG using one, but other ones don't as well.  I can see why they may not want to use the extra step to use one.  Lately, I'm starting to love the look of a molded pizza. 

So Iíve noticed a few things. In the Giambatta picture, PR puts the toppings all the way to the ridge. From the videos I posted it looks like some Sbarro workers make the ridge even more pronounced, after coming out of the mold. Then they press down with both hands and rotate to make it larger, and then they lay the dough on their knuckles (which is my favorite method) to make it pretty much the final size. I say all this because Iíll have to do the same, as to not ruin any ridge I make. Iím going to try to make a really pronounced ridge on my own.

Next time Iím also going to lightly cook one pizza, cut up the pizza, and re-cook each slice in the Ooni. This must be why PR undercooks their pizzas that are used for slices, so that the slices donít get too overcooked and dried out.  I absolutely love the taste of the oil from the cheese and sauce as they spill over to the underside of the slice. This is the single reason I have loved getting slices over whole pizzas at PR, and never knew why. Of course the slice also gets crispier the longer it cooks again, so PR understood this compared to PG who always cooks my slices till they are way too dry. But sometimes I like them crispy, but undercooking allows for less burnt or dried out slices.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on April 08, 2019, 12:42:38 PM
So I made three doughs around 2 AM this morning.
1.  ADY, mixer, 45F water, 72F dough, oiled, and bottom, .375% ADY 5g salt
2.  ADY, food processor, 40F water, 70.7F dough, no oil, top .375% ADY 5g salt
3.  IDY, food processor, 40F water, 67F dough, bag,.6% IDY 5g salt

The fridge they went in was a warmer fridge than the one I normally use. Itís usually around 40F, and was when I put it in, but when I woke up it was around 32F on my thermometer, but said 36 in the fridge digital built in computer. What do you guys think? Do you think if I can get them in a warmer fridge later today they will be ok? I wanted them to never be at 32F.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on April 08, 2019, 10:56:41 PM
Update:  My fridge is stable at 40F throughout the day today.  Do you think the overnight 32F temps will be bad for the tests?  At least it does level out at 40F throughout the day.  Also, some new info has emerged.  I spoke with an employee at PR.  I also noticed the dough molds above the bench, that look exactly like the Sbarro ones. 

New info:
1.  The dough definitely looks either drier or colder when they open them.  I'd say it's a bit of both.  There is a lot of dead yeast in them.  So, I was wrong thinking it was a higher hydration dough.  Maybe I should lower the effective hydration to 65% or 60%, instead of 70%.
2.  The cheese is a blend and not straight mozzarella, according to the people I asked.  They wouldn't tell me what it is, but it just doesn't taste like mozzarella either.  It does have cheddar like taste to it, or at least more fat.
3.  I asked about the acidity of the tomatoes and they weren't sure, but I have a feeling Pizza Shark's citric acid ammounts still hold true today.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Bogy on April 09, 2019, 10:13:56 AM
Thanks for your new info and i'm waiting for your new test

For variation in temperature, I don't know if that has bad effects on fermentation or not ... but i like my fridge temperature to be stable at 40f as i think 32f is very cold for fermentation

Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on April 09, 2019, 12:22:45 PM
Thanks for your new info and i'm waiting for your new test

For variation in temperature, I don't know if that has bad effects on fermentation or not ... but i like my fridge temperature to be stable at 40f as i think 32f is very cold for fermentation

Thank you.  That is very good advice and 32F is awesome for drinks but not so much dough I guess haha.  I found my fridge to be mainly stable around 40F throughout most of the day.  It's set for 37F so not sure why it read 32F at one point at the top of the fridge.  I've actually never seen it get that cold in that fridge. 

I've been thinking about the cheese and it did give me a cheddar or provolone flavor.  This could just be from more fat in the mozz.  Assuming the employee is right, the blend mentioned could just be higher fat mozzarella.  His use of the word blend is exactly how others at PR have mentioned it, and the employees I talk to mention how it's greasier and butterier than most Mozzarellas.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: enchant on April 10, 2019, 06:48:08 PM
About ten years ago, I happened to be in the Kingston mall and noticed Pizzeria Regina in the food court.  I hadn't known they were there, and I'd always heard great things about the North End location, so I grabbed a couple slices.  They were terrific.  Thing is, I was never in a big hurry to go back, because for me, pizza really needs beer, and shopping mall food courts kinda frown on that sort of thing.

About a year ago, my wife and I took a rare (for us) trip into the North End for dinner.  After our meal, we walked it off some and found ourselves at Pizzeria Regina.  So this was the original place!  Even though I was still uncomfortably full from my big meal down the street, I just had to order a slice.  And as full as I was, it was still delicious.

At any rate, I found myself in the Kingston Mall again today as it was getting near lunchtime and decided to stop by that PR and pick up a whole cheese pizza.  I'd eat half for lunch and half for dinner.  But I've got to say that it was a bit of a disappointment.  When I brought it back to my table and opened the box, the middle 60% appeared to be a flat sea of yellow liquid.  It was as though they added an awful lot of oil on top of way too much cheese.  The sauce was good, and the crust cooked nicely, but it wasn't like previous PR pizzas I've had.

To be honest, I've never been an "extra cheese" fan.  I think there's the right amount of cheese to go on a pizza.  I also believe that no matter what you're talking about, there can always be too much of a good thing, and I think this might have been the case.  I'd like to believe that it was simply too much cheese and not that they'd changed the recipe. 

Either way, I've got to get back to the North End to try them again.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on April 11, 2019, 04:16:38 PM
About ten years ago, I happened to be in the Kingston mall and noticed Pizzeria Regina in the food court.  I hadn't known they were there, and I'd always heard great things about the North End location, so I grabbed a couple slices.  They were terrific.  Thing is, I was never in a big hurry to go back, because for me, pizza really needs beer, and shopping mall food courts kinda frown on that sort of thing.

About a year ago, my wife and I took a rare (for us) trip into the North End for dinner.  After our meal, we walked it off some and found ourselves at Pizzeria Regina.  So this was the original place!  Even though I was still uncomfortably full from my big meal down the street, I just had to order a slice.  And as full as I was, it was still delicious.

At any rate, I found myself in the Kingston Mall again today as it was getting near lunchtime and decided to stop by that PR and pick up a whole cheese pizza.  I'd eat half for lunch and half for dinner.  But I've got to say that it was a bit of a disappointment.  When I brought it back to my table and opened the box, the middle 60% appeared to be a flat sea of yellow liquid.  It was as though they added an awful lot of oil on top of way too much cheese.  The sauce was good, and the crust cooked nicely, but it wasn't like previous PR pizzas I've had.

To be honest, I've never been an "extra cheese" fan.  I think there's the right amount of cheese to go on a pizza.  I also believe that no matter what you're talking about, there can always be too much of a good thing, and I think this might have been the case.  I'd like to believe that it was simply too much cheese and not that they'd changed the recipe. 

Either way, I've got to get back to the North End to try them again.

I enjoyed reading that.  I had a similar experience years ago at the Braintree South Shore Plaza one.  I got it once in a while for parties or just stopping by for a slice.  The North End location is much better for many reasons, but the top two for me are that they heat the slices up much better, and the oven is just better.  I forgot to mention that I noticed Braintree used a small oven to heat up slices.  I'm not sure what the North End uses, but it seems like the regular oven, as they don't have much room in there. 

Onto your cheese point.  I tasted Empire Mozzarella again today and I'm going to compare it to Great Lakes mozzarella cheese from Market Basket.  Empire is better than Galbani, and the difference was that Galbani is milkier (almost entirely milk tasting with some butteriness), while Empire has more of an aged taste with very little milkiness, and quite buttery.  It's not sharp by any means, but it almost reminds me of cheddar or Swiss (It has the color of Swiss and tastes quite a bit like Imported Aged Swiss without the sharpness).  This may be why it tastes like cheddar on their pizza, or they might be using a blend of Mozzarella and something else as employees have told me.  Either way, your greasy experience reminded me of the oily taste I got when I melted their cheese. 

The locations, I believe, use 10oz of sauce and 10oz of cheese.  I found a better ratio is 10 oz sauce to 6.5 oz cheese for that perfect NY orange perfectly blended look to the pizza (happens very rarely in the North End, but can be seen on some videos on YT).  I found when adding more than 7oz of cheese, the cheese doesn't fully oil off/melt and the pizza looks more like Pizza Hut.  I love Pizza Hut, but using more cheese just feels more like an American pizza to me.  PR's Empire cheese is very good though and maybe the added cheese is what also makes it taste extra rich to me.  Mall locations also just don't adhere to the same standards I've noticed, but Braintree is miles better than it used to be years ago. 

My doughs are looking pretty regular after a few days.  I don't see much dead yeast, but only a little bit.  I'm not getting that grey look with all the dead yeast that Peter got.  The fridge has been about 40F during the day.  What exactly causes the large amounts of dead yeast?  My finished dough temps were a bit different than Peter's, so could it be from the finished dough temps and fridge temps differing?
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 11, 2019, 06:13:12 PM
My doughs are looking pretty regular after a few days.  I don't see much dead yeast, but only a little bit.  I'm not getting that grey look with all the dead yeast that Peter got.  The fridge has been about 40F during the day.  What exactly causes the large amounts of dead yeast?  My finished dough temps were a bit different than Peter's, so could it be from the finished dough temps and fridge temps differing?
Pod4477,

It's hard to say in any given case what causes the grey look in the dough. In general, there can be several explanations. For example, Tom Lehmann did a nice job in addressing this issue at the PMQ Think Tank in these posts:

https://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/reasons-for-black-specs-underperforming-dough.9981/#post-68665, and

https://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/ask-tom-lehmann-a-question.9214/page-3#post-67142

If I were to speculate, I would say that maybe the cause in your case has to do with adding yeast (and especially ADY) in dry form and later in the dough making process. And it perhaps helps to have a long fermentation although I have heard of and read that the black spots can also occur with short cold fermentations. However, the cause may be other than using non-prehydrated yeast added late in the dough making process.

If you do a forum search, you will find quite a few posts that address the issue of black spots in dough. For example, here is a typical thread on the subject:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12818.msg124032.html#msg124032

You will note in the above thread that a member (Mullered) said that he got the black spots in a Papa John's clone dough. As I have reported before, I believe that PJ was quite likely using non-prehydrated ADY in its dough, at least at the time where I posted on the matter.

Peter
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on April 12, 2019, 01:18:23 AM
Pod4477,

It's hard to say in any given case what causes the grey look in the dough. In general, there can be several explanations. For example, Tom Lehmann did a nice job in addressing this issue at the PMQ Think Tank in these posts:

https://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/reasons-for-black-specs-underperforming-dough.9981/#post-68665, and

https://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/ask-tom-lehmann-a-question.9214/page-3#post-67142

If I were to speculate, I would say that maybe the cause in your case has to do with adding yeast (and especially ADY) in dry form and later in the dough making process. And it perhaps helps to have a long fermentation although I have heard of and read that the black spots can also occur with short cold fermentations. However, the cause may be other than using non-prehydrated yeast added late in the dough making process.

If you do a forum search, you will find quite a few posts that address the issue of black spots in dough. For example, here is a typical thread on the subject:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12818.msg124032.html#msg124032

You will note in the above thread that a member (Mullered) said that he got the black spots in a Papa John's clone dough. As I have reported before, I believe that PJ was quite likely using non-prehydrated ADY in its dough, at least at the time where I posted on the matter.

Peter

Thanks Peter! I find it funny that I'm trying to get the black specks and most people are trying to avoid it.  I am seeing some black specks, but just not on the third day as I believe you saw it, and not to the extent that you saw it.  I should note that you had the black specks pictured from your IDY dough, but in my case my ADY doughs are showing more black specks, and my IDY one is showing almost none.  I really want to achieve the level of dead yeast as you have, just to see if it gets me closer to PR flavor.  I also noticed my bagged IDY dough has the gluten network showing quite extensively, while the ADY doughs in the containers look more regularly smooth without the gluten matrix look.  Is my bagged IDY overfermenting?

The ADY yeast doughs also seem to have ADY that floated to the top of the dough.  It looks like little specks of brown ADY or something at the top.  I made sure to mix the ADY in good, so this is interesting.  Somehow this is the only pic I got,  but Iíll take more after work in a half hour. The one pictured is the ADY one with no oil added to the bottom of the bowl.

One thing I wonder: Do the black specks add flavor as PR claims the dead yeast does, as my PR dough was very similar to PR and had very little black specks.  I just want to see if it matters.  It does seem to happen after 7-9 days, but not at the extent that you and PR get it to, which is frustrating. 
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: PizzAmateur on April 12, 2019, 01:50:07 AM
Thanks Peter! I find it funny that I'm trying to get the black specks and most people are trying to avoid it.  I am seeing some black specks, but just not on the third day as I believe you saw it, and not to the extent that you saw it.  I should note that you had the black specks pictured from your IDY dough, but in my case my ADY doughs are showing more black specks, and my IDY one is showing almost none.  I really want to achieve the level of dead yeast as you have, just to see if it gets me closer to PR flavor.  I also noticed my bagged IDY dough has the gluten network showing quite extensively, while the ADY doughs in the containers look more regularly smooth without the gluten matrix look.  Is my bagged IDY overfermenting?

The ADY yeast doughs also seem to have ADY that floated to the top of the dough.  It looks like little specks of brown ADY or something at the top.  I made sure to mix the ADY in good, so this is interesting.  Somehow this is the only pic I got,  but Iíll take more after work in a half hour. The one pictured is the ADY one with no oil added to the bottom of the bowl.

One thing I wonder: Do the black specks add flavor as PR claims the dead yeast does, as my PR dough was very similar to PR and had very little black specks.  I just want to see if it matters.  It does seem to happen after 7-9 days, but not at the extent that you and PR get it to, which is frustrating.

Forgive my ignorance and the fact that I have not read all of the linked related material...

But, has anyone ever analyzed the black spots chemically, biologically, etc?

Not just on this forum, but anyone?

Seems some knowledge would be gained by looking at these black spots under a microscope at least?

I fear my ignorance is showing, so I will shut up and listen. :)
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pod4477 on April 12, 2019, 03:04:09 AM
Forgive my ignorance and the fact that I have not read all of the linked related material...

But, has anyone ever analyzed the black spots chemically, biologically, etc?

Not just on this forum, but anyone?

Seems some knowledge would be gained by looking at these black spots under a microscope at least?

I fear my ignorance is showing, so I will shut up and listen. :)

No, no, you present a very good question and one that I didn't think of.  I believe they are dead yeast, but I'm not sure if they have ever been analyzed.  This seems like possibly an easy task if anyone had a microscope, which I wish I had.  Analyzing is always a good idea, you're right.  Now PR claims their dead yeast adds flavor, and that is why I am so obsessed with it.  Also all of their doughs have this dead yeast, so it must be for a reason.

Pod4477,

It's hard to say in any given case what causes the grey look in the dough. In general, there can be several explanations. For example, Tom Lehmann did a nice job in addressing this issue at the PMQ Think Tank in these posts:

https://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/reasons-for-black-specs-underperforming-dough.9981/#post-68665, and

https://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/ask-tom-lehmann-a-question.9214/page-3#post-67142

If I were to speculate, I would say that maybe the cause in your case has to do with adding yeast (and especially ADY) in dry form and later in the dough making process. And it perhaps helps to have a long fermentation although I have heard of and read that the black spots can also occur with short cold fermentations. However, the cause may be other than using non-prehydrated yeast added late in the dough making process.

If you do a forum search, you will find quite a few posts that address the issue of black spots in dough. For example, here is a typical thread on the subject:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12818.msg124032.html#msg124032

You will note in the above thread that a member (Mullered) said that he got the black spots in a Papa John's clone dough. As I have reported before, I believe that PJ was quite likely using non-prehydrated ADY in its dough, at least at the time where I posted on the matter.

Peter

Peter, I forgot to ask.  Did you notice any major flavor advantage from all the black specks/dead yeast in your REPLY #29 dough at (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg36081#msg36081) compared to non-black speck doughs?  I should have asked this earlier, because if the large amount of dead yeast have no flavor advantage to you, there is no advantage to trying to get large amounts of black specks.

Pictures 1-3:  .6% IDY, food processor, 40F water, 67F final dough, bag
Pictures 4, 5: .375% ADY, food processor, 40F water, 70.7F final dough, no oil in container
Pictures 6, 7: .375% ADY, stand mixer, 45F water, 72F final dough, oiled container

You can see the bubble and the gluten structure of the bagged dough that looks over-fermented to me. It did have the most yeast and food processor, but the other food processor dough looks more normal and the same as the stand mixer dough. The little brown or off-white bumps on the top of the dough in the containers are what appear to be ADY that moved to the top of the dough! Not sure if they are ADY, but they are around the same brownish color as ADY. There appears to be more dead Yeast black specks now, which is 10 hours later.
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2019, 08:56:03 AM
Podcast

I also tried some longer fermentations different times with Peter's help.  Starting at Reply 241 was one of them.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg85495#msg85495

If you read further, it can be seen there was one that was frozen, then defrosted, and it worked somewhat.  Still find those dark specks interesting. Of course at that time I was trying to learn and was somewhat of a newbie.  Probably could do better now in trying to keep the dough colder.

Norma
Title: Re: Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 12, 2019, 11:42:00 AM
Pod4477,

In the course of the experiments I conducted and described in the thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33251;topicseen#msg33251 I did a lot of things that were out of the ordinary, even if not original w