Recreating the Pizzeria Regina Pizza

[Pod4477]

Leave room for the notion that you may come up with something repeatable and a little more practical that you like better than PR.

Good advice and I hope so!  Thank you.  I keep basing all my doughs on that one New Year's Day dough that came out amazing.  It's been tough to replicate, but I know what I did that week.  I really wonder if it is the yeast they use or the flour, as those are the only two main ingredients I was given.  I'm also going to make some breads with the dough, just to test the crumb.  I will say that after 14 days, the alcohol scent was strong with this one.

[Pod4477]

So I'm having a small bit of an epiphany tonight after talking to The Dough Doctor on my other fermentation thread.  After talking with someone close to PR last week, I have theorized that maybe they used to use a biga and cake yeast in their dough before the commissary, and now are using something like an inactive sourdough in their dough, along with a commercial yeast, and then cold fermenting.  I know the ingredients only mention "yeast," but I wonder how much they really have to list for that.  My evidence for this possibly being the recipe are as follows:

1.  The only other dough that has come close to PR in taste (and quite close) is the Neapotlian dough containing a biga, from Pizza Fest.  I spoke to whom I believe was the owner, and he confirmed they use a biga in their dough.  It was also the best dough besides PR at the Pizza Fest.

2.  The primary flavor in the crumb is sweet/savory followed by a slight sour taste.

3.  I've come close with my 9 day fridge ferment, but I still felt it needed more flavor.  It seemed to be lacking enough of that sweet/savory flavor primary flavor which I sometimes call a buttery flavor.  While the 9 days did bring about a buttery flavor, I remember it not being enough, and I don't remember any slight sour flavor coming through.  Since cold fermenting is related to a biga or sourdough process, I believe this is why I taste that buttery sweet/savory flavor in my 9 day CF dough, PR dough, and the Neapolitan dough, but my 9 day dough being almost a minimal version of the 3.

4.  The family that started PR came from Italy and after hearing from that person close to PR talk about 2 day room temp ferments and cake yeast, it hit me.  They probably started out using the same methods as Neapolitan dough and then started cold fermenting at some point.

5.  The 3-7 days that PR claims for their cold ferment really didn't seem to do much for fermentation flavors for me.  I found the minimum to be 9 days and I have a feeling in order to taste that sour flavor, there has to be something more being used.

[Pod4477]

I think using a biga and coming close to that Neapolitan dough is a good plan.  That dough was very close to PR.  My question to all of you is would it be possible to do a 3-7 day CF dough with a biga in it, or would something like an inactive sourdough need to be used for the fridge? 

I know that Neapolitan room temp fermented doughs are different than PR's CF, but I wonder if it would be possible to marry the two.  I suspect PR used to use a biga or some sort of preferment, but now they could have switched to something more practical for the commissaries.  My only basis for this is the sour flavor that I detected.  I also don't know much about using a biga.  How long can a biga be fermented for before being added to the dough?  PR and the Neapoltian dough had a light sour taste, so I suspect it may not have to be very long.

[Pete-zza]

Pod4477,

You might want to take a look at the articles cited in the following post:

Reply 2 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=52874.msg532402#msg532402.

The articles mentioned above are for bread dough but the principles should apply reasonably well to pizza dough also and serve a reasonable entry point for what you are thinking of doing. As with most dough related projects some experimentation and testing may be necessary.

Peter

[Pod4477]

Pod4477,

You might want to take a look at the articles cited in the following post:

Reply 2 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=52874.msg532402#msg532402.

The articles mentioned above are for bread dough but the principles should apply reasonably well to pizza dough also and serve a reasonable entry point for what you are thinking of doing. As with most dough related projects some experimentation and testing may be necessary.

Peter

Thank you so much! I love reading about this stuff.  How long do you think a biga would take in order to develop a the sour flavor note that I tasted in the PR crust?

I noticed in the biga test you did, that you wanted to try out the Neapolitan process and I feel this harkens back to the early days of PR.  With PR and the Neapolitan dough I had over the summer, there was only a slight sour taste, definitely with PR, and probably with the Neapolitan dough as well.  Most of the main flavor was a very pleasant fermentation flavor which I figure is from a biga or something similar. 

I know I keep repeating this  but I feel that it's good evidence for a 1-3 week biga or less.  I have a feeling it needs to be right in the range of enough time to build these fermentation flavors, but not enough to make it super sour.  There also needs to be enough biga to give it flavor, but not too much that it overpowers it.  One thing I remember when using a sourdough starter in my dough, is that I always used too much and was super sour, but it very rarely added any noticeable fermentation flavor.  There was one night though, when my sourdough rolls tasted amazing, and maybe I just had the perfect ratios and room temp fermentation. 

Either way, I think a biga mixed with a cold ferment may lend to the PR dough, as my CF doughs are very close but lack that little bit extra fermentation flavor and slightly sour secondary flavor note.

Since my 9-14 day CF dough's are almost like one giant biga, I wonder the difference between using a biga and just using a super long cold fermented dough.  Obviously using a biga would give the added sour flavor without super long cold fermentation of the main dough.

[Pete-zza]

Pod4477,

I'm not sure how long it would take to develop a sour flavor when using a biga. But you might want to take a look at a recent post by Tom Lehmann on the more pertinent aspects of using bigas as opposed to sourdough starters. His post is Reply 26 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=59623.msg598179;topicseen#msg598179

I think a lot depends on how long you want to cold ferment a dough. Once you have an answer for that, then you have to decide how much biga to use, and how much yeast should be used in the biga. If you go back to the second article by Didier Rosada at https://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm, you will note the following comments by Didier:

The quantity of preferment that the baker can include in his/her formulas depends on the baking process.  As a general rule, anytime the first fermentation is shorter, the quantity of preferment should be increased to avoid penalizing the quality of the final product. There are, of course, certain limits. Preferment brings flavor, but also strength to the dough. If an excessive amount of preferment is added, the acidity level in the dough may be too high thereby reducing dough extensibility. A lot of factors such as the strength of the flour, hydration, and the type of preferment help to determine the quantity of preferment to use in the dough.

Through a series of baking tests, we can determine what is the right percentage of preferment.  Sometimes, practical considerations like floor space and/or production requirements are also part of the decision. Average amounts are listed in part one of this article.

To add to the above, I should mention that when I conducted experiments using small amounts of yeast and other techniques to make cold fermented doughs that could last a week or more, I felt that many of the crusts had characteristics that I had achieved before using natural preferments, including noticeable sour flavors. In this context, if you go to Reply 20 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11344.msg106401#msg106401 and click on some of the links in that post, you will see what I mean. I mention this because using a biga may not add a lot more to the flavor of a crust if the basic cold fermentation window of the underlying dough is considerably longer than average. Of course, in your case you have specific flavors in mind that may be different than what I achieved.

Peter

 

[Pod4477]

Pod4477,

I'm not sure how long it would take to develop a sour flavor when using a biga. But you might want to take a look at a recent post by Tom Lehmann on the more pertinent aspects of using bigas as opposed to sourdough starters. His post is Reply 26 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=59623.msg598179;topicseen#msg598179

I think a lot depends on how long you want to cold ferment a dough. Once you have an answer for that, then you have to decide how much biga to use, and how much yeast should be used in the biga. If you go back to the second article by Didier Rosada at https://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm, you will note the following comments by Didier:

The quantity of preferment that the baker can include in his/her formulas depends on the baking process.  As a general rule, anytime the first fermentation is shorter, the quantity of preferment should be increased to avoid penalizing the quality of the final product. There are, of course, certain limits. Preferment brings flavor, but also strength to the dough. If an excessive amount of preferment is added, the acidity level in the dough may be too high thereby reducing dough extensibility. A lot of factors such as the strength of the flour, hydration, and the type of preferment help to determine the quantity of preferment to use in the dough.

Through a series of baking tests, we can determine what is the right percentage of preferment.  Sometimes, practical considerations like floor space and/or production requirements are also part of the decision. Average amounts are listed in part one of this article.

To add to the above, I should mention that when I conducted experiments using small amounts of yeast and other techniques to make cold fermented doughs that could last a week or more, I felt that many of the crusts had characteristics that I had achieved before using natural preferments, including noticeable sour flavors. In this context, if you go to Reply 20 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11344.msg106401#msg106401 and click on some of the links in that post, you will see what I mean. I mention this because using a biga may not add a lot more to the flavor of a crust if the basic cold fermentation window of the underlying dough is considerably longer than average. Of course, in your case you have specific flavors in mind that may be different than what I achieved.

Peter

Thank you for the links!  It seems like I shouldn't use too much biga when starting out testing, since dough extensibility is important for a 16" pizza.  I also feel the same way as you, that long cold fermentation is essentially doing very similar things and I believe the sour flavor you mention may be the same as PR.  I love how you went up to 23 days.  After 14 days, I noticed the same alcohol scent as you mentioned.  So exactly how come using small amounts of yeast is important with long cold ferments?  I apologize, we discussed this before, but I can't remember the reason.  I also remember you saying to keep the final dough temp down and adding the yeast towards the end of the mix, and that will help extend the dough for long cold fermentation.

I theorize that Pizzeria Regina may be using an inactive sourdough (now) or a biga (back then) for flavor, and only doing the 3-7 day CF to control bubbles as they say, and add some flavor.  I only theorize this because 3-7 days was no where near enough for me to build their flavors or any sour notes.  It seems similar things can be done when doing long ferments of non-biga dough, but I still haven't quite tasted quite the same fermentation flavor.  It may also be that I'm so used to my dough.  I know my dough has tasted quite similar in a side by side test, but I'm going to have to test my crumb to see if I get the sweet/savory fermentation flavor and then the sour note after it.   

[foreplease]

Hi Pod, earlier in this thread or another one about SD flavor it seemed you didn’t know or overlooked that biga is made with yeast. Seems like you do now.


I spent a couple years on and off experimenting with biga and found it quite frustrating. That was several years before I found this forum. In the last 2 years I have been using poolish for several types of pizza and bread. I find it easier to understand and suitable (read: good enough for who it’s for    )since my goals and aspirations are not as grand as some here have (with my respect and admiration).

Good luck on your continuing pursuit of this one!

[Pod4477]

Hi Pod, earlier in this thread or another one about SD flavor it seemed you didn’t know or overlooked that biga is made with yeast. Seems like you do now.


I spent a couple years on and off experimenting with biga and found it quite frustrating. That was several years before I found this forum. In the last 2 years I have been using poolish for several types of pizza and bread. I find it easier to understand and suitable (read: good enough for who it’s for    )since my goals and aspirations are not as grand as some here have (with my respect and admiration).

Good luck on your continuing pursuit of this one!

It's quite possible!  I've done SD for a while before I used a biga last year for Scali bread.  I remember being told to use a pinch of IDY, but before that, I may have thought it was without yeast, for sure.  SD always had more flavor to me, as I found 12 hours of a biga wasn't enough for my flavor requirements haha.  It definitely helped to read up about all the preferments.  I'm sure your poolish and poolish dough are awesome.  It is amazing what a preferment will do for a dough, and it's fun to experiment with it.  I remember my SD crusts being quite sour.  Now is a biga with natural yeast instead of commercial yeast essential just a sourdough?

[Pete-zza]

Thank you for the links!  It seems like I shouldn't use too much biga when starting out testing, since dough extensibility is important for a 16" pizza.  I also feel the same way as you, that long cold fermentation is essentially doing very similar things and I believe the sour flavor you mention may be the same as PR.  I love how you went up to 23 days.  After 14 days, I noticed the same alcohol scent as you mentioned.  So exactly how come using small amounts of yeast is important with long cold ferments?  I apologize, we discussed this before, but I can't remember the reason.  I also remember you saying to keep the final dough temp down and adding the yeast towards the end of the mix, and that will help extend the dough for long cold fermentation.

I theorize that Pizzeria Regina may be using an inactive sourdough (now) or a biga (back then) for flavor, and only doing the 3-7 day CF to control bubbles as they say, and add some flavor.  I only theorize this because 3-7 days was no where near enough for me to build their flavors or any sour notes.  It seems similar things can be done when doing long ferments of non-biga dough, but I still haven't quite tasted quite the same fermentation flavor.  It may also be that I'm so used to my dough.  I know my dough has tasted quite similar in a side by side test, but I'm going to have to test my crumb to see if I get the sweet/savory fermentation flavor and then the sour note after it.

Pod4477,

When I conducted the experiments I mentioned in Reply 20 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11344.msg106401;topicseen#msg106401, I felt that a good way to make a long, cold fermented dough that could survive many days and even weeks was to use cold water, a small amount of yeast, and to add the yeast late in the dough making process. However, I was concerned that my method would not work, or work sufficiently well to justify the use of my method, if the water was too cold or the amount of yeast was too small. So, as a further experiment, I decided to use the above method but using considerably more yeast, but still using cold water. I also felt that using more yeast would lead to a better oven spring. So, I increased the amount of yeast considerably and, as you can see in Reply 29 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081 the amount of yeast I used was 0.60% (IDY). And the dough made it out to 12 days of cold fermentation, and with very good results.

In your case, you may want to stick as close to what you have learned about the PR dough and try to find a way of increasing the sourness of the finished crust. In this regard, you may recall that PR has said more than once that it uses a "special" yeast, but never telling us what that is. Now, I think it is safe to say that the traditional forms of commercial yeast like IDY, ADY, and fresh/cake/compressed are not "special", although my recollection is that scott r said that he was told that PR was using fresh yeast. But if I were to be told that the "special" yeast is beer yeast, or a natural yeast or even dead yeast, then I might accept that those forms used in a pizza dough might be properly called "special". I don't even think that I would consider a commercially leavened preferment, such as a poolish, sponge or biga, to be anything special. They have been used in breadmaking for decades.

I think your idea of using a biga, and especially if it is a natural biga (aka a sourdough biga), to augment a dough that uses commercial yeast and cold fermented for say, seven days, to be a reasonable one. You might even be able to get away with using more of the biga than you think, although that will depend on whether the biga is commercially leavened or a natural biga. In either case, the biga would ferment more slowly than, say, a poolish, because it has a considerably lower hydration value. But if you decide to go with a commercially leavened biga, you will have to decide how much of the total yeast goes into the biga. It all comes down to balancing the amount of biga to use and its duration of pre-fermentation, its potential contribution of sourness, and dovetails properly with the rest of the dough and its profile and duration of fermentation. I guess that is what Didier Rosada means when he says to conduct baking tests to answer these kinds of questions.

Peter

[foreplease]

It's quite possible!  I've done SD for a while before I used a biga last year for Scali bread.  I remember being told to use a pinch of IDY, but before that, I may have thought it was without yeast, for sure.  SD always had more flavor to me, as I found 12 hours of a biga wasn't enough for my flavor requirements haha.  It definitely helped to read up about all the preferments.  I'm sure your poolish and poolish dough are awesome.  It is amazing what a preferment will do for a dough, and it's fun to experiment with it.  I remember my SD crusts being quite sour.  Now is a biga with natural yeast instead of commercial yeast essential just a sourdough?

I think of it in those terms but it doesn’t fit the definition is my understanding of it.

[Pod4477]

Pod4477,

When I conducted the experiments I mentioned in Reply 20 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11344.msg106401;topicseen#msg106401, I felt that a good way to make a long, cold fermented dough that could survive many days and even weeks was to use cold water, a small amount of yeast, and to add the yeast late in the dough making process. However, I was concerned that my method would not work, or work sufficiently well to justify the use of my method, if the water was too cold or the amount of yeast was too small. So, as a further experiment, I decided to use the above method but using considerably more yeast, but still using cold water. I also felt that using more yeast would lead to a better oven spring. So, I increased the amount of yeast considerably and, as you can see in Reply 29 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081 the amount of yeast I used was 0.60% (IDY). And the dough made it out to 12 days of cold fermentation, and with very good results.

In your case, you may want to stick as close to what you have learned about the PR dough and try to find a way of increasing the sourness of the finished crust. In this regard, you may recall that PR has said more than once that it uses a "special" yeast, but never telling us what that is. Now, I think it is safe to say that the traditional forms of commercial yeast like IDY, ADY, and fresh/cake/compressed are not "special", although my recollection is that scott r said that he was told that PR was using fresh yeast. But if I were to be told that the "special" yeast is beer yeast, or a natural yeast or even dead yeast, then I might accept that those forms used in a pizza dough might be properly called "special". I don't even think that I would consider a commercially leavened preferment, such as a poolish, sponge or biga, to be anything special. They have been used in breadmaking for decades.

I think your idea of using a biga, and especially if it is a natural biga (aka a sourdough biga), to augment a dough that uses commercial yeast and cold fermented for say, seven days, to be a reasonable one. You might even be able to get away with using more of the biga than you think, although that will depend on whether the biga is commercially leavened or a natural biga. In either case, the biga would ferment more slowly than, say, a poolish, because it has a considerably lower hydration value. But if you decide to go with a commercially leavened biga, you will have to decide how much of the total yeast goes into the biga. It all comes down to balancing the amount of biga to use and its duration of pre-fermentation, its potential contribution of sourness, and dovetails properly with the rest of the dough and its profile and duration of fermentation. I guess that is what Didier Rosada means when he says to conduct baking tests to answer these kinds of questions.

Peter

Thank you so much! Sorry I tried to reply last night, but wasn't able to get back to my computer.  I checked it but then had to leave quickly . This information you have given is amazing.  I found the difference between .20% and .60% for a cold ferment dough quite large.  It usually shows much more activity when going up to .60%.  Your tests are amazing and that truly helped me understand stretching a dough out to almost 2 weeks. 

I completely forgot about how they mentioned "special yeast."  When I talked to the person close to PR they emphasized fresh yeast as well.  I wonder why PR would claim "special yeast."  Maybe it's just because of the way they ferment it that feel it becomes special or something.  That is why I feel it may be easier to follow the Neapolitan dough I had at Pizza Fest.  I wish I could try it again, but I do remember it having the same wonderful fermentation flavor that PR has, but I can't remember a sour note at the end.  Either way, it was almost identical and gave me that buttery taste that I think of with PR.  So is a buttery/savory flavor a normal description of fermentation flavor?  Younger fermented dough now tastes pretty bland to me, while it seems to me that longer fermented dough or dough with a biga take on a savory flavor.  It's funny because I know it instantly when I taste it.  That's why I suspect using a biga since that Neapolitan dough most likely had one.

Like you said, it will all be about the ratios and testing.  Do you know how long some Neapolitan doughs' bigas are?  I should have asked the owner when I talked to him. I know not all Neapolitan doughs use a biga, but I've seen a few on YouTube that keep the recipe guarded.

I think of it in those terms but it doesn’t fit the definition is my understanding of it.

Thank you.  It definitely would be a hybrid I'm sure.  I seem to not have the best luck starting natural yeast collection.  Maybe it's just a cold kitchen in the fall/winter, but I want to try it again.

[Pete-zza]

Pod4477,

I personally do not associate a buttery or savory flavor with a crust, unless, of course, the pizza is a deep dish or pan pizza or some other type of pizza where butter or a butter substitute is used in making the dough. You might recall that reference was made to a La Spagnola Vegetable and Olive Oil Blend or something similar to that. But without knowing more about that product it would be hard to say whether such a blend could impart buttery or savory notes to a finished pizza crust. But I would tend to think not.

On the matter of the "special yeast", I once actually sent an email to PR asking them for more information about what that was. I don't recall exactly how I phrased the question but it was in the context of my need to avoid certain food items to which I was allergic. I got no reply. That made me wonder why they would not reply to such a simple request, even if they were somewhat evasive in what they would tell me. That made me also wonder whether the "special yeast" was a marketing gimmick to make customers think that they were getting something very unique.

As for the use of a biga for the Neapolitan style, it has always been my understanding that preferments were not used in Naples for Neapolitan style pizzas. This is something that was told to me with respect to poolish and sponge preferments in a post by Marco (pizzanapoletana) at Reply 54 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2088.msg24291#msg24291

Marco also commented on the impact of a natural preferment on a crust at Reply 23 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1240.msg11159#msg11159,

and also at Reply 21 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1240.msg11144#msg11144

Of course, one can use a preferment to make a Neapolitan style pizza if one wishes. But I do not know the specifics of any such use.

Peter

[amolapizza]

I've been following this thread for a while, but can't remember if you tried adding butter or dry milk to the dough?

I've recently started using biga for bread baking and hopefully I can contribute some information.  A biga is a preferment that normally gets prepared with 40-50% hydration.

Piergiorgio Giorilli, a famous Italian baker has codified a well regarded biga.  It's made with a strong flour (W=280-380, P/L 0.5-0.6), at 44% hydration and 1% of CY.  The temperature of the biga should be 20-21C after mixing, and it gets kept quite religiously at 18C for 18 to 24 hours, as that is the temperature that develops the "best" balance of acetic and lactic acids.  The longer you keep it, the more mature the flour gets, the stronger the aromas, and the faster it will raise your bread.

There should be a minimum of gluten development, so it only gets mixed to a shaggy mass.  See: https://www.scattidigusto.it/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/biga-impasto-pizza-960x640.jpg

It doesn't get hermetically sealed, it needs oxygen to give the biga an aerobic environment instead of the usual anaerobic environment of a dough.  This is to allow the yeast cells to multiply instead of going into alcoholic fermentation.

There is also the rule of 55 (in Celcius):

55 - Flour temperature (room temperature - 1) - Ambient Temperature (where the biga is kept) = Water temperature to use.

This rule helps if one doesn't have access to a controlled temperature of 18C.  Say the biga and flour is kept at 20C, the calculation would be 55-19-20=16 (use water with a temperature of 16C).

Of course there must be hundreds of other ways to prepare a biga.  For instance I noticed that if I keep the biga hermetically sealed it gets a strong alcoholic smell, which also makes for very tasty bread.  Using different temperatures, hydration, and gluten development will also change the final result.

Personally I think a biga is a good way to give your bread great taste, and it if used in bigger quantities it will give your bread a really fast fermentation time.  I have no idea how this translates to 7-12 day fridge dough for pizza, so best of luck!

Here is an article written by Giorilli: https://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&sl=italian&tl=english&u=https://www.ristorazioneitalianamagazine.it/biga-limportanza-corretta-conoscenza-dei-fattori-la-compongono/

It's mostly understandable in English through Google translate, especially replacing chariot with biga will make more sense

[Pod4477]

Pod4477,

I personally do not associate a buttery or savory flavor with a crust, unless, of course, the pizza is a deep dish or pan pizza or some other type of pizza where butter or a butter substitute is used in making the dough. You might recall that reference was made to a La Spagnola Vegetable and Olive Oil Blend or something similar to that. But without knowing more about that product it would be hard to say whether such a blend could impart buttery or savory notes to a finished pizza crust. But I would tend to think not.

On the matter of the "special yeast", I once actually sent an email to PR asking them for more information about what that was. I don't recall exactly how I phrased the question but it was in the context of my need to avoid certain food items to which I was allergic. I got no reply. That made me wonder why they would not reply to such a simple request, even if they were somewhat evasive in what they would tell me. That made me also wonder whether the "special yeast" was a marketing gimmick to make customers think that they were getting something very unique.

As for the use of a biga for the Neapolitan style, it has always been my understanding that preferments were not used in Naples for Neapolitan style pizzas. This is something that was told to me with respect to poolish and sponge preferments in a post by Marco (pizzanapoletana) at Reply 54 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2088.msg24291#msg24291

Marco also commented on the impact of a natural preferment on a crust at Reply 23 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1240.msg11159#msg11159,

and also at Reply 21 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1240.msg11144#msg11144

Of course, one can use a preferment to make a Neapolitan style pizza if one wishes. But I do not know the specifics of any such use.

Peter

Yeah I'm really not sure if I'm getting the flavor correct by saying savory or buttery, but I believe it has to be either savory or sweet, as there is no bitter flavor being tasted, and the slightly sour flavor comes in after.  I remember throughout my crumb tests, for the most part I didn't taste anything spectacular, and most of the crumb just tasted like regular Italian bread (with no outstanding sweet or savory flavor), but there were certain parts of the crumb that contained that sweet or savory flavor, followed by the sour flavor.  I'm not sure if it was just because I took bigger chunks of the crumb at that time, or what, but I do remember that happening.  I did find that it's very tough to get accurate tests of the crumb when the cornicone is very thin/low.  It seems that the bigger crusts that are more bread-like, have the most flavor contained, and maybe thats just because there's more mass there and it stays perfectly cooked, and not dried out. PR has some of the biggest TF around, second only to Sal's I believe.  It's also important to note that the North End location uses a dough mold and Braintree doesn't.  This is probably why I taste the savory/butter flavor more in Braintree, as the cornicone's are larger.

I didn't realize that most Neapolitan dough does not consist of a biga.  Thank you for the links/resources!  I remember Vito Iacopelli saying he used a biga on his live stream last year and then the pizzaiolo from the Italian shop at the Pizza Fest confirming he used one.  Maybe it's a new trend.  I do know that Neapolitan dough is the closest I've ever had to PR.  By process of emimination, we know that most chains are not using a biga, and most dough to me tastes good but not as good as PR or that Neapolitan dough, so I wonder if a biga is key or something else.  I do have a feeling that the "Special Yeast" is a marketing gimmick and I love the fact that you emailed them about this, because I forgot to ask when I called.  I appreciate you emailing them.

I've been following this thread for a while, but can't remember if you tried adding butter or dry milk to the dough?

I've recently started using biga for bread baking and hopefully I can contribute some information.  A biga is a preferment that normally gets prepared with 40-50% hydration.

Piergiorgio Giorilli, a famous Italian baker has codified a well regarded biga.  It's made with a strong flour (W=280-380, P/L 0.5-0.6), at 44% hydration and 1% of CY.  The temperature of the biga should be 20-21C after mixing, and it gets kept quite religiously at 18C for 18 to 24 hours, as that is the temperature that develops the "best" balance of acetic and lactic acids.  The longer you keep it, the more mature the flour gets, the stronger the aromas, and the faster it will raise your bread.

There should be a minimum of gluten development, so it only gets mixed to a shaggy mass.  See: https://www.scattidigusto.it/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/biga-impasto-pizza-960x640.jpg

It doesn't get hermetically sealed, it needs oxygen to give the biga an aerobic environment instead of the usual anaerobic environment of a dough.  This is to allow the yeast cells to multiply instead of going into alcoholic fermentation.

There is also the rule of 55 (in Celcius):

55 - Flour temperature (room temperature - 1) - Ambient Temperature (where the biga is kept) = Water temperature to use.

This rule helps if one doesn't have access to a controlled temperature of 18C.  Say the biga and flour is kept at 20C, the calculation would be 55-19-20=16 (use water with a temperature of 16C).

Of course there must be hundreds of other ways to prepare a biga.  For instance I noticed that if I keep the biga hermetically sealed it gets a strong alcoholic smell, which also makes for very tasty bread.  Using different temperatures, hydration, and gluten development will also change the final result.

Personally I think a biga is a good way to give your bread great taste, and it if used in bigger quantities it will give your bread a really fast fermentation time.  I have no idea how this translates to 7-12 day fridge dough for pizza, so best of luck!

Here is an article written by Giorilli: https://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&sl=italian&tl=english&u=https://www.ristorazioneitalianamagazine.it/biga-limportanza-corretta-conoscenza-dei-fattori-la-compongono/

It's mostly understandable in English through Google translate, especially replacing chariot with biga will make more sense

Hello! I love how these threads reach so many users.  I have used butter and milk in my Greek/test doughs before and it was good!  A local bar pizza near me has been rumored to use butter for a pie-type crust, and I love it.  Your biga information is amazing and I really appreciate it.  I had no idea about uncovering the dough and the temperature playing such a big role.  I'll have to implement these.  I remember my biga looking just like yours after mixing, which is good, and I appreciate the picture posted.  It's always awesome to see a picture, as I'm more of a visual learner.  What is the best way you store yours at 18C?  The water temp formula is amazing!  Thank you for the link as well.  haha I like how biga can be chariot.  These are amazing resources.

[scott r]

what's your local bar pizzeria?

[Pete-zza]

Pod4477,

Since you mentioned sweetness in your crust tests, as well as a sour note, I thought that it might be useful to you to know that even when there is no sugar used in a dough that is to be used to make a pizza it is still possible to get both a sweetness and sourness in the crust at the same time. Moreover, there will still be enough residual sugar in the dough to contribute to decent crust coloration. To elaborate further on these observations, you might want to go back to the post that I cited earlier at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11344.msg106401#msg106401 and read my comments on the crust sweetness, and sourness as well, for items 1-4. Those four cases covered from 5 1/2 days to 15 days of cold fermentation, and it wasn't until a dough reached 23 days of cold fermentation that I could not detect sweetness in the finished crust. Yet there was still good crust coloration in all five cases. That raises the following question: How can a dough that has no sugar added produce a finished crust that is sweet after up to 15 days of cold fermentation, and also have good crust coloration? Since that question puzzled me no end, and I had no explanation for my results, I went to member November to help me answer my question. He offered his explanation in Reply 14 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33947#msg33947

I don't pretend to fully understand November's explanation in Reply 14 but I suppose it doesn't matter if one is able to replicate the process that produces crusts with sweetness, sourness, and good crust coloration after very long fermentation periods and with no sugar in dough that yielded the aforementioned crust characteristics. Moreover, the amount of yeast used can vary over a fairly wide range, in my case from 0.25% IDY to 0.60% IDY. As a further side note, in one of my posts I mentioned that I had a few leftover pizza slices from one of the pizzas I made and the crust was still sweet and jumped out at me since I wasn't expecting it.

Now, I have no idea as to how PR specifically produces the results you mentioned but if a cold fermentation period of close to seven days is used, then the dough may yield finished crust characteristics like those mentioned above. Of course, I used a few tricks in my case that went beyond the amount of yeast and how the yeast is incorporated into the dough. It is possible that PR has some of its own tricks to be able to achieve its desired final results.

As a final comment, I might add that it was member November who gave me the idea to sift the flour before using to make the dough. As I noted in Reply 282 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg416752#msg416752, there are several benefits to be achieved from sifting the flour. You will also note from several of my recipes that I used a hydration of 65%. Normally, and all else being equal, a higher hydration can result in faster fermentation of the dough. Yet, in my cases, if that actually occurred it did not harm anything as best I can tell.

Peter

[amolapizza]

Your biga information is amazing and I really appreciate it.  I had no idea about uncovering the dough and the temperature playing such a big role.  I'll have to implement these.  I remember my biga looking just like yours after mixing, which is good, and I appreciate the picture posted.  It's always awesome to see a picture, as I'm more of a visual learner.  What is the best way you store yours at 18C?  The water temp formula is amazing!  Thank you for the link as well.  haha I like how biga can be chariot.  These are amazing resources.

You're welcome!

As I recently managed to somehow kill my sourdough starter I've been studying and using biga for a while (for bread baking).  I thought I'd chip in and share some of the information I uncovered.

Most people think that a dough is a simple thing (which in some ways it is).  You mix a couple of ingredients, how hard can it be?  On the other hand, the moment water and flour are mixed there are hundreds of biochemical processes put into motion.  The most visible of these processes is the alcoholic fermentation as the dough increases in volume, but there are many others that you won't be able to see, only note in the resulting dough or final product.  Some changes in the process are unlikely to have much impact on the final dough, while others very much so.

I keep my biga in the basement which is at a perfect steady temperature during the winter.  I'll have to see what to do about that next summer if I'm still using biga.

Be careful with this biga as it's an atomic bomb   Apart from the flavors developed it has very much leavening power.  It's like several times the yeast added to the biga in the first place.  I don't know how this would affect your multiple day fridge dough.

Italians mostly make Neapolitan dough with fresh beer yeast and ferment the dough at room temperature.  The fridge is mostly used to counteract the high ambient temperature in the summer and/or to retard the dough due to time constraints.

I've mostly seen them using biga to prepare high hydration dough for pan pizza.  I'd say that they'd typically use 10-30% of the dough flour to prepare the biga, but one could theoretically even use all the flour in the biga.  The amount used will greatly change the final result.  Sometimes fresh yeast is also added to the final dough to compliment the biga, though I'm not sure if this really is needed.

IMO a biga is really super when preparing a high hydration dough like for ciabatta, but it would be very hard to do this without a really good dough mixer (like a spiral).  It also adds incredible taste and structure to my 66% hydration rustic bread.

Also keep in mind that this is only one way to prepare a biga, there are surely many other varieties used by bakers.  Each will to a certain extent have it's own properties.

Good luck with your project!

[Bogy]

During searching about the Biga, i found Italian pizza masters ferment it at 15c (=60f)

Also i found the optimum fermentation temperature for a Neapolitan dough is 18c (=65f)

and after reading your posts about that PR ferment their dough out the fridge

So theoretically,  for the best result  you should try ferment your dough at 60f to get the balance between lactic and acetic acids

so i think the technique is one of two :

First (with Biga) : 1 day making biga at 60f + 2 days dough fermentation at 60f
then you can use it after the three days ((or)) try give it more fermentation in the fridge for (1-4) days max

Second (withot Biga) : 2 days dough fermentation at 60f then give it 1-5 days in fridge then use it after the CF

Important Note : try add some CAPUTO CRISCITO (dried inactive sourdough stater) as it used by many Neapolitan pizza masters

and forgive me for my weak English 

with best wishes and don't forget to tell us the results



 

[Pod4477]

what's your local bar pizzeria?

Sorry I haven't been on in days!  Lynwood is my favorite, but I like a lot of the local bar pizzas too. Poopsie's was good too.

Pod4477,

Since you mentioned sweetness in your crust tests, as well as a sour note, I thought that it might be useful to you to know that even when there is no sugar used in a dough that is to be used to make a pizza it is still possible to get both a sweetness and sourness in the crust at the same time. Moreover, there will still be enough residual sugar in the dough to contribute to decent crust coloration. To elaborate further on these observations, you might want to go back to the post that I cited earlier at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11344.msg106401#msg106401 and read my comments on the crust sweetness, and sourness as well, for items 1-4. Those four cases covered from 5 1/2 days to 15 days of cold fermentation, and it wasn't until a dough reached 23 days of cold fermentation that I could not detect sweetness in the finished crust. Yet there was still good crust coloration in all five cases. That raises the following question: How can a dough that has no sugar added produce a finished crust that is sweet after up to 15 days of cold fermentation, and also have good crust coloration? Since that question puzzled me no end, and I had no explanation for my results, I went to member November to help me answer my question. He offered his explanation in Reply 14 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33947#msg33947

I don't pretend to fully understand November's explanation in Reply 14 but I suppose it doesn't matter if one is able to replicate the process that produces crusts with sweetness, sourness, and good crust coloration after very long fermentation periods and with no sugar in dough that yielded the aforementioned crust characteristics. Moreover, the amount of yeast used can vary over a fairly wide range, in my case from 0.25% IDY to 0.60% IDY. As a further side note, in one of my posts I mentioned that I had a few leftover pizza slices from one of the pizzas I made and the crust was still sweet and jumped out at me since I wasn't expecting it.

Now, I have no idea as to how PR specifically produces the results you mentioned but if a cold fermentation period of close to seven days is used, then the dough may yield finished crust characteristics like those mentioned above. Of course, I used a few tricks in my case that went beyond the amount of yeast and how the yeast is incorporated into the dough. It is possible that PR has some of its own tricks to be able to achieve its desired final results.

As a final comment, I might add that it was member November who gave me the idea to sift the flour before using to make the dough. As I noted in Reply 282 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg416752#msg416752, there are several benefits to be achieved from sifting the flour. You will also note from several of my recipes that I used a hydration of 65%. Normally, and all else being equal, a higher hydration can result in faster fermentation of the dough. Yet, in my cases, if that actually occurred it did not harm anything as best I can tell.

Peter

Very interesting and thank you, awesome information!  I really appreciate these links, and I that is an awesome experiment you did there testing through that many days.  I smiled when reading that your tests have found it possible for a sweet and sour flavor to coexist in your dough, and I definitely need to get there. 

I feel bad that I'm getting back to everyone so late.  I believe it to be sweetness, but it has to either be sweet or savory, since it's a very pleasurable taste.  I did make a set of rolls with my sourdough starter last year that had a similar flavor to them, and I believe I'm close with my PR dough, as well.  It just feels like there needs to be more of it.  I should trust my senses, since on that New Year's Day I remember smelling and tasting that buttery flavor that I got from PR all those years, and what was absent until day 9 of my doughs.  I'm convinced PR dough is just the same complex flavors as good sourdough bread, but just dialed down on the sourness.

I too, have wondered how there can be sweetness after many days.  It's very interesting that sugar alcohols are the main culprits of sweetness. November's explanation is quite advanced, but I can gather that it's the alcohol products he mentioned.  I should start sifting my flour again and using a higher hydration dough.  I did find that higher hydration doughs worked better for me, and I did not experience any cracking of the cornicone when stretching.

So I feel, in order to get close to PR dough, I need to get the sweet or savory flavors to be present, with a very slight sour flavor.  Am I right to say that this means it's not fermented too extensively like a sourdough, since that usually leads to very noticeable sour flavors?  I think you really hit the nail on the head, talking about how most doughs are just not fermented long enough and I think that's the case with many pizza places here.  I also prefer more salt than most doughs contain, and PR has the perfect balance.

Also, I still can't get all the dead yeast of your 12 day dough.  I'm still wondering why I can't achieve this, as PR has the same amount as you have.

During searching about the Biga, i found Italian pizza masters ferment it at 15c (=60f)

Also i found the optimum fermentation temperature for a Neapolitan dough is 18c (=65f)

and after reading your posts about that PR ferment their dough out the fridge

So theoretically,  for the best result  you should try ferment your dough at 60f to get the balance between lactic and acetic acids

so i think the technique is one of two :

First (with Biga) : 1 day making biga at 60f + 2 days dough fermentation at 60f
then you can use it after the three days ((or)) try give it more fermentation in the fridge for (1-4) days max

Second (withot Biga) : 2 days dough fermentation at 60f then give it 1-5 days in fridge then use it after the CF

Important Note : try add some CAPUTO CRISCITO (dried inactive sourdough stater) as it used by many Neapolitan pizza masters

and forgive me for my weak English 

with best wishes and don't forget to tell us the results



 

Thank you! Very good information here as well.  I'm going to try some room temp ferments definitely.  Thank you for the guide, and I'll follow it.  I have a feeling (and I'm not sure) that this could have been the way early on in PR creation.  Very intetesting you mention dried inactive sourdough starter, as the Dough Doctor had mentioned this too.  So it's an old dough that has been dried, and reactivates when added to a dough with yeast in it?  I wish I thought of that.  I'll have to try to get my hands on some to try it.  Your English is really good; I thought it was your first language.