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Author Topic: Dough balls that quickly flatten into pancake form  (Read 809 times)

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Offline mikewp318

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Dough balls that quickly flatten into pancake form
« on: July 10, 2022, 10:25:34 AM »
Hi everyone. Do you have any thoughts on what would cause dough balls to thin out very quickly like they did in the post below?

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=64116.msg631075#msg631075

I made pizza last night and this happened again... I balled and they'd opened up so much they looked like pancakes. And that was only after an hour or so of having balled and in a cold kitchen that was 68F.

Offline foreplease

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Re: Dough balls that quickly flatten into pancake form
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2022, 10:45:06 AM »
I understand your explanation here and in the other thread but it doesn’t add up to me - meaning I can’t spot a cause based on what you did. In the other thread, you were at just 0.2 grams of IDY for 1,000 g flour, right?


Scott had some good suggestions but I think in addition to trying those it maybe time to reduce your water by 2-4%. We should talk about your water temperature and finished dough temp. If you consistently have this problem, try using water at 45° to 50° To slow things down. Less water is probably what I would try first.
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Offline mikewp318

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Re: Dough balls that quickly flatten into pancake form
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2022, 11:17:52 AM »
For this batch I used 0.29 grams of IDY for 1,200 grams of flour, 65% hydration, 3% salt, and fermented at room temp (70F) for 23 hours. The IDY portion was based on this fermentation table from Craig: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26831.msg349349.html#msg349349

Maybe reduce the yeast next time and/or lower water temp? I think my water was probably too warm... I just used room temp.

The dough seemed to be very active just 10 hours into the fermentation showing tons of tiny little bubbles on the bottom (seen through bottom of glass bowl).

Offline foreplease

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Re: Dough balls that quickly flatten into pancake form
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2022, 11:28:11 AM »
I am sure your yeast amount was fine. I was discreetly checking to make sure you had decimal in the right place. That leaves temperatures and times to look at, in addition to % water. You went up from the previous thread from 62.5% to 65%. If you are in a hurry to figure this out I would try it at 58% to 60% as my first move.
-Tony

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Dough balls that quickly flatten into pancake form
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2022, 11:57:52 AM »
mikewp318,

Making long room temperature fermented doughs can be quite tricky, with yeast quantity and temperatures being critical. You might find these posts of value to emphasize those points:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg62332#msg62332

Reply 127 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg92094#msg92094

Peter

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Offline mikewp318

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Re: Dough balls that quickly flatten into pancake form
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2022, 09:17:20 PM »
Thank you all for the feedback. Looking forward to putting some of this insight to work on the next batch!

Offline PizzaPassion

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Re: Dough balls that quickly flatten into pancake form
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2022, 06:00:58 AM »
I've been watching this thread but I've been reluctant to comment as I'm a rookie at best and still learning each week. What I don't understand is why so little yeast with 1,200 grams of flour? I know you are fermenting at room temperature vs. refrigerator ferment but it just seems to me with high hydration and so little yeast there's little to keep your dough from collapsing. Much of what I learned is from the Pizza Bible and I checked the percentage of yeast in most recipes is .5% - 1%. You're at .02% and sounds like you're going lower. Guess I just don't understand.

Online scott r

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Re: Dough balls that quickly flatten into pancake form
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2022, 09:50:37 AM »
Mike, The cause of the pancaking of the dough is too much water.  Thats probably also why its hard for you to manage durning the stretch.  My suggestion to reball was to try to save that particular (1st) batch in the previous thread by building in some more strength before you went to stretch it.  If your repeating the recipe just use less water and that will fix it.  Of course you still have to use the dough at the correct time with the proper amount of fermentation and that is the hardest part of pizza making to nail down.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2022, 10:14:10 AM by scott r »

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Re: Dough balls that quickly flatten into pancake form
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2022, 09:53:23 AM »
I've been watching this thread but I've been reluctant to comment as I'm a rookie at best and still learning each week. What I don't understand is why so little yeast with 1,200 grams of flour? I know you are fermenting at room temperature vs. refrigerator ferment but it just seems to me with high hydration and so little yeast there's little to keep your dough from collapsing. Much of what I learned is from the Pizza Bible and I checked the percentage of yeast in most recipes is .5% - 1%. You're at .02% and sounds like you're going lower. Guess I just don't understand.

There is no perfect amount of yeast to use.  Its all dependent on how long your ferment is and how warm your temp is.  For very long slow room temp ferments in a warm space there is nothing wrong with .02. I dont think a book would suggest that amount as most people dont want to wait that long.  Lots of yeast or small amounts of yeast can both get you to the same place... but the higher yeast amounts just get you there faster.   I have gone as low as .01 yeast and it works great... it just takes a LONG time to get there. 
« Last Edit: July 13, 2022, 10:08:20 AM by scott r »

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Re: Dough balls that quickly flatten into pancake form
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2022, 10:11:47 AM »
I know you are fermenting at room temperature vs. refrigerator ferment but it just seems to me with high hydration and so little yeast there's little to keep your dough from collapsing.

Using more yeast would not help to keep a dough from collapsing.  That would be protein content of flour along with strength of dough.   It is possible that the dough in these threads has not had enough gluten developed.  For very wet doughs it blows my mind how much work I have to put in to develop the gluten before its finally where I want it to be.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2022, 11:21:40 AM by scott r »

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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Dough balls that quickly flatten into pancake form
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2022, 11:07:48 AM »
I second the idea that your dough is too wet, and you should back the hydration down to more like 58% and see what kind of results you get. But I do think your yeast quantity is definitely on the low side. I know that adding more yeast does not directly contribute to stronger dough, but when you're using so little compared to the amount of salt in the dough and fermenting so long at RT, you're not necessarily optimizing your conditions for fermentation as well as you could be, IMO. Here are my suggestions:

1) Bloom the yeast in the water (probably at about 80 degrees) for a good ten minutes, then add the flour first, and salt last when you're mixing it up. I don't normally advocate a late salt addition, as I don't think it's really all that beneficial in most scenarios, but when you're using so little yeast, I think it would help to let it really wake up and integrate with the flour first, before the salt has a chance to start slowing it down.

2) Let the dough ferment in bulk for around 6 hours at RT, then ball it up and throw it in the fridge and let it stay there for a good 48 hours prior to use.

3) Take the dough balls out about 2 hours before use, so that they get warm enough to use, but not so warm that they start to get flabby. 

That's about all I've got for you. There might be others who disagree with my assessments, but I think this should help.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Dough balls that quickly flatten into pancake form
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2022, 04:40:15 PM »
I agree with the others that the high hydration is the likely cause. You might try making 3 balls, dropping the HR by 2% with each: 63%, 61%, and 59% and see how they compare. Flat or not, if the dough didn't look fully fermented from the bottom, I'd also up the yeast a bit - maybe 0.03% and see what happens.

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Offline PizzaPassion

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Re: Dough balls that quickly flatten into pancake form
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2022, 10:05:35 PM »
There is no perfect amount of yeast to use.  Its all dependent on how long your ferment is and how warm your temp is.  For very long slow room temp ferments in a warm space there is nothing wrong with .02. I dont think a book would suggest that amount as most people dont want to wait that long.  Lots of yeast or small amounts of yeast can both get you to the same place... but the higher yeast amounts just get you there faster.   I have gone as low as .01 yeast and it works great... it just takes a LONG time to get there.
When I first started this journey, and that's what it is for me, I thought it was all about the recipe. Now I realize the process, combined with the recipe, is the key. And the process may even be the more important of the two. Thanks for your guidance.

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