Chewy dough low protein flour

[troysproul]

Hi All,
I can't seem to figure this one out. I am getting a really chewy crust instead of a crunchy exterior and tender interior. It doesn't make much sense given my recipe and technique below. I was able to achieve my desired outcome using a stand mixer during the R&D phase but since i've moved into a commercial space with 60qt mixer I am getting a chew. I don't believe I'm over mixing (only 5 minutes or less as I finish with stretch and folds).

Flour - 11.5% from Central Milling
Hydration - 79%
Salt - 2%
Oil - 4%
20% sourdough starter (type 00 flour from central milling).

Mix (all times below vary based on gluten development; I aim to mix to 75% gluten development then finish with one stretch and fold, rests, etc. etc.)
1 hour autolyse (just flour and water)
sourdough - 1.5 minutes
Salt - 1 min
oil - 2.5 minutes

DDT - 75 degrees

I divide the bulk mix into 3 proof boxes (tilt the bowl tip and cut with dough knife)
I let rest for 30 minutes then I do 1 stretch and fold; let rest for 3 hours at 75 degrees then goes in the refer for about 18 hrs then I divide, scale, bench rest (20 min, then ball.

My theory is that I am over handling the dough during the bulk divide segment. Seems like a lot of stretching, but not sure. Could it be how we are balling it? We don't over work it - two folds, seal, then roll into a ball.

Any help would be appreciated. This type of flour should be super tender in the inside I feel.

Thanks!

[QwertyJuan]

I can't remember Tom's exact wording, but it was something to do with overfermented dough having the mastication properties of leather. 

[wotavidone]

Hi All,
I can't seem to figure this one out. I am getting a really chewy crust instead of a crunchy exterior and tender interior. It doesn't make much sense given my recipe and technique below. I was able to achieve my desired outcome using a stand mixer during the R&D phase but since i've moved into a commercial space with 60qt mixer I am getting a chew. I don't believe I'm over mixing (only 5 minutes or less as I finish with stretch and folds).

Flour - 11.5% from Central Milling
Hydration - 79%
Salt - 2%
Oil - 4%
20% sourdough starter (type 00 flour from central milling).

Mix (all times below vary based on gluten development; I aim to mix to 75% gluten development then finish with one stretch and fold, rests, etc. etc.)
1 hour autolyse (just flour and water)
sourdough - 1.5 minutes
Salt - 1 min
oil - 2.5 minutes

DDT - 75 degrees

I divide the bulk mix into 3 proof boxes (tilt the bowl tip and cut with dough knife)
I let rest for 30 minutes then I do 1 stretch and fold; let rest for 3 hours at 75 degrees then goes in the refer for about 18 hrs then I divide, scale, bench rest (20 min, then ball.

My theory is that I am over handling the dough during the bulk divide segment. Seems like a lot of stretching, but not sure. Could it be how we are balling it? We don't over work it - two folds, seal, then roll into a ball.

Any help would be appreciated. This type of flour should be super tender in the inside I feel.

Thanks!

I wouldn't view 11.5 as "low protein"
79% water plus oil must be as sticky as hell.
How wet would you estimate your 20% sourdough starter to be?
How do you determine % gluten development?
How long and at what temperature are you cooking it?
My feeling is low and slow = chewy

[troysproul]

To clarify, i'm calculating my hydration level like this:
65% water
20% starter at 100% hydration = 10% added hydration (75%)
4% oil = 79% hydration.

Is over-fermentation a possibility here?

[Peterwoody]

Your hydration (ignoring oil) is 68%. You start with 100 units of flour and 65 units of water. You add 10 units of flour and 10 units of water, giving you 110 units of flour and 75 units of water - 68.2%. You don't say how long you balls remain at room temperature but assuming two hours RF plus the 3 hours pre CF, at 20% starter you may be over fermented?

[troysproul]

Thank you for correcting the math. Dough balls sit out for 2 hours before use.

[QwertyJuan]

My feeling is low and slow = chewy

Absolutely not. The correct assumption is... improperly fermented dough = chewy. OVERLY fermented dough = boot leather.

[QwertyJuan]

Post a picture of one of your dough balls if you can.

[wotavidone]

Absolutely not. The correct assumption is... improperly fermented dough = chewy. OVERLY fermented dough = boot leather.

You are right on those two assertions.
However, when everything else is OK, low and slow = chewy.

[QwertyJuan]

You are right on those two assertions.
However, when everything else is OK, low and slow = chewy.

Ok, well let's clear this up, HAHA. What do you consider low and slow?

[wotavidone]

When ya get some mug who has to have 00, then cooks the thing for ages in his 500F oven trying to brown it.
You want hot and fast for 00.
The OP (not that I'm calling him a mug) says he's using central milling 00 and can't get crunchy exterior and tender interior.
And you won't, if you are cooking it low and slow, it'll be overcooked and chewy. Hence my question as to how long and at what temperature he was cooking it. After, all he says he has moved into a commercial space with a different mixer, who says he's using the same ovens?
I'm not saying it is what his problem is, but it is a legit question to ask.

[QwertyJuan]

Didn't realize the flour he was using was 00. I saw that his starter was 00. I agree.... 00 flour, like Caputo Blue for instance is terrible at low temps. But bread flour? I can make you a loaf of bread, cook it at 325 and it will double in size and melt in your mouth.

[wotavidone]

Didn't realize the flour he was using was 00. I saw that his starter was 00. I agree.... 00 flour, like Caputo Blue for instance is terrible at low temps. But bread flour? I can make you a loaf of bread, cook it at 325 and it will double in size and melt in your mouth.

When's baking day? I think I know where my passport is....

[wotavidone]

Didn't realize the flour he was using was 00. I saw that his starter was 00. I agree.... 00 flour, like Caputo Blue for instance is terrible at low temps. But bread flour? I can make you a loaf of bread, cook it at 325 and it will double in size and melt in your mouth.

Come to think of it, the OP didn't definitively state it's all 00 flour. Hopefully he will chime in and tell us.

[QwertyJuan]

When's baking day? I think I know where my passport is....

I actually haven't been cooking bread lately... too much work for too little return. I have to make 11 loaves of bread to make the same money as selling a couple large works pizzas. And the work involved is 5x as much. (not to mention, I could only make 3 loaves at a time in my KitchenAid BUT the smallest batch I could make in my 60qt mixer was 11 loaves at a time and(depending on the day) sometimes couldn't get rid of them all. It just didn't make economic sense to continue. Although I do feel bad for all the older folks that used to come in faithfully for their bread.

This is what I was cooking though... 62% hydration, 10% oil, 2.5% salt, 7% sugar, 1.5% yeast. Balled and in the fridge overnight and proofed the next day for 3-4 hours. Baked at 325 for about 50 minutes. Crispy on  the outside and melt in your mouth on the inside.

[Oberon]

Hi All,
I can't seem to figure this one out. I am getting a really chewy crust instead of a crunchy exterior and tender interior. It doesn't make much sense given my recipe and technique below. I was able to achieve my desired outcome using a stand mixer during the R&D phase but since i've moved into a commercial space with 60qt mixer I am getting a chew. I don't believe I'm over mixing (only 5 minutes or less as I finish with stretch and folds).

Flour - 11.5% from Central Milling
Hydration - 79%
Salt - 2%
Oil - 4%
20% sourdough starter (type 00 flour from central milling).

Mix (all times below vary based on gluten development; I aim to mix to 75% gluten development then finish with one stretch and fold, rests, etc. etc.)
1 hour autolyse (just flour and water)
sourdough - 1.5 minutes
Salt - 1 min
oil - 2.5 minutes

DDT - 75 degrees

I divide the bulk mix into 3 proof boxes (tilt the bowl tip and cut with dough knife)
I let rest for 30 minutes then I do 1 stretch and fold; let rest for 3 hours at 75 degrees then goes in the refer for about 18 hrs then I divide, scale, bench rest (20 min, then ball.

My theory is that I am over handling the dough during the bulk divide segment. Seems like a lot of stretching, but not sure. Could it be how we are balling it? We don't over work it - two folds, seal, then roll into a ball.

Any help would be appreciated. This type of flour should be super tender in the inside I feel.

Thanks!

I make sourdough bread (mostly) for a living , and sourdough pizza as a hobby...and I use the ABC+ from Central Milling as my standard sifted flour in my bakery.

I do think you are probably experiencing some overfermentation and/or excessive proteolytic breakdown.

If I were you, I would try the following:
- cut the autolyse in 1/2 (at least)
- cut the bulk fermentation time
- cut the % of prefermented flour in your formula to ~15%

Scaling up production can have a number of confounding issues...in particular in this situation, the bulk effect in fermentation (along with seasonal changes...it is summer), and your setup for cooling/storing dough and the efficiency/power of your cooling system, and the mass it has to cool, can really make some big differences.

Mixing may be making a difference...but I really doubt it...it's not like you're mixing for 10min on second speed with a spiral, really hard to over develop dough by hand.

And...I've been working on adding pizza at the bakery, and dialing in my dough...I am pursuing light and crispy crust, and have gone from pure sourdough (which was really good), to a hybrid, to now using a straight dough (with 48hrs shaped retard in the cooler)...if you want light and crisp, and less chew, then (relatively) softer flour helps, as does lower ash content, and less acidity (which is why I will never make sourdough baguettes...crust is too tough for a baguette IMO).  Following these principles has made a dramatic different in my pursuit of the ultimate baguette, and carries over to pizza dough, to some extent...

[PizzaGarage]

In my opinion the dough is getting out of control, too much time at RT, in autolyse and with your bulk ferment technique overall the dough is too warm too often during the entire process.

Would suggest, and if you have to autolyse, reduce to 15 minutes
Reduce bulk size, divide into 6 containers as opposed to 3
Let rest less, try 1/3 reduction to 20 min, then do your stretch and fold
Eliminate the 3 hour rest at 75
You didn’t say what you do after balling?  Back to fridge or production line

Dough should be fairly wet so I get the resting times etc.  I would reduce the time in any of the RT phases

I would give that a try and see what it gets you.  Converting from home to commercial is challenging especially if your doing bulk ferment at RT in larger batches, far more heat to deal with and the yeast is really active.

Recommend fridge at 36 and watch temps to see if the unit can handle the dough, separate the storage containers so air is circulating and honestly I would keep the lid off those batches for 30-45 min then put the lid on.  If you get a skin that concerns you there is also an opportunity to lightly oil the top of the batch.  Keeping the lid off will reduce condensation inside the container and give the bulk more air and opportunity to cool down.

[foreplease]

Nice post PG.

[Pizzailolz]

A year old, but great info. I've been experimenting with pizza dough for about a year or two, and still learning something knew all the time here on the mighty PMF.

[junep]

Hi All,
I can't seem to figure this one out. I am getting a really chewy crust instead of a crunchy exterior and tender interior. It doesn't make much sense given my recipe and technique below. I was able to achieve my desired outcome using a stand mixer during the R&D phase but since i've moved into a commercial space with 60qt mixer I am getting a chew. I don't believe I'm over mixing (only 5 minutes or less as I finish with stretch and folds).

Flour - 11.5% from Central Milling
Hydration - 79%
Salt - 2%
Oil - 4%
20% sourdough starter (type 00 flour from central milling).

Mix (all times below vary based on gluten development; I aim to mix to 75% gluten development then finish with one stretch and fold, rests, etc. etc.)
1 hour autolyse (just flour and water)
sourdough - 1.5 minutes
Salt - 1 min
oil - 2.5 minutes

DDT - 75 degrees

I divide the bulk mix into 3 proof boxes (tilt the bowl tip and cut with dough knife)
I let rest for 30 minutes then I do 1 stretch and fold; let rest for 3 hours at 75 degrees then goes in the refer for about 18 hrs then I divide, scale, bench rest (20 min, then ball.

My theory is that I am over handling the dough during the bulk divide segment. Seems like a lot of stretching, but not sure. Could it be how we are balling it? We don't over work it - two folds, seal, then roll into a ball.

Any help would be appreciated. This type of flour should be super tender in the inside I feel.

Thanks!

Don't know if this will help, but your flour is not a low protein. General Mills preimium bread flour is 10.5% protein, and Franke's New Haven pizza uses a low protein flour, no oil, 68% hydration, and baked at 600F in a coal oven. I another post someone said a manager there said the Gold Medal Premium with 10.5% protein.(he said better, but I assume he meant the premium), is the closest flour a non business can buy to get close to their flour.  Amazon right now has a 20% off on 5bls of the flour and I just ordered a bag for $3.90 w/ free shipping with my Amazon Prime.