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Offline kbrede

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First NY style pizza
« on: November 12, 2022, 07:53:33 PM »
This is my first attempt at NY style. Since I have no personal experience with NY pizza it's hard to tell how I did. Could someone give me feedback on how it looks? This was a bake on steel at 550F. The recipe I followed is linked below which ultimately came from our forum:

https://feelingfoodish.com/the-best-new-york-style-pizza-dough/ 

My evaluation is that the crust on the bottom is probably too thin, and the outer crust might be too wide. I used cheap Walmart brand whole milk moz and part-skim in a 50/50% blend. Should I use more cheese? It looks thin to me. Did I get the mottling right and avoid the cheese separation? The crust had some crispiness and was a bit chewy, which I think is what I'm suppose to go for. Thanks for any input, I'm just looking to improve.     
-- Kent

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Offline nickyr

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Re: First NY style pizza
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2022, 01:19:49 AM »
That’s a heck of a first attempt! I agree the crust is too wide. It’s hard to get it to look right at home though because real NY style pizza is way bigger than you can fit in your home oven.

I use 9 oz of cheese for a 14 inch pizza.

Offline nickyr

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Re: First NY style pizza
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2022, 01:21:49 AM »
Oh also: put some grated pecorino romano down before the mozzarella

Offline kbrede

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Re: First NY style pizza
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2022, 05:26:10 AM »
That’s a heck of a first attempt! I agree the crust is too wide. It’s hard to get it to look right at home though because real NY style pizza is way bigger than you can fit in your home oven.

I use 9 oz of cheese for a 14 inch pizza.


Thanks! I used just shy of 4.5 oz of cheese on this 14”. I'll try 9 next time.
-- Kent

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Offline kbrede

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Re: First NY style pizza
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2022, 05:27:43 AM »
Oh also: put some grated pecorino romano down before the mozzarella

Will do. Thanks for the tip :)
-- Kent

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: First NY style pizza
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2022, 09:01:08 AM »
The pizza looks pretty solid. I look way beyond typical beginner-level pizza. I don't think there is a lot we can tell you to improve based on just that one pizza. From where you are not, practice comes from experience. If there are specific questions you have, folks here can help with them. One think I'd suggest is working on using less bench flour.

Excited to see your progress.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline kbrede

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Re: First NY style pizza
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2022, 09:32:02 AM »
The pizza looks pretty solid. I look way beyond typical beginner-level pizza. I don't think there is a lot we can tell you to improve based on just that one pizza. From where you are not, practice comes from experience. If there are specific questions you have, folks here can help with them. One think I'd suggest is working on using less bench flour.

Excited to see your progress.

Thanks Craig! I will definitely work on using less bench flour.
-- Kent

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Gozney Roccbox
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Online Pizza_Not_War

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Re: First NY style pizza
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2022, 10:43:27 AM »
Looks great! If it tastes great to you then you nailed it. As much as adding grated cheese to it will taste better it really was never done when I grew up eating NY pizza. It was usually just Mozzarella. The edge/rim/cornicione is indeed wide, but that would be my favorite part so if you enjoy it why not keep it. Crust refers to the entire dough part of the pizza.

My first pizza was barely edible.

Offline kbrede

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Re: First NY style pizza
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2022, 11:16:00 AM »
Looks great! If it tastes great to you then you nailed it. As much as adding grated cheese to it will taste better it really was never done when I grew up eating NY pizza. It was usually just Mozzarella. The edge/rim/cornicione is indeed wide, but that would be my favorite part so if you enjoy it why not keep it. Crust refers to the entire dough part of the pizza.

My first pizza was barely edible.

Thanks! To be clear, this was my first NY style. I'd made a dozen Neapolitan style prior to this. So I had practice that helped before making this one.

The taste was good but can be improved a lot in my estimation. I've got ideas to try for that. I'm going to add a bit more salt to the crust, and tweak the sauce by upgrading the tomatoes and add more spice.

Thanks for the correction on terminology :)
-- Kent

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Offline 02ebz06

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Re: First NY style pizza
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2022, 11:51:54 AM »
Good lookin' pizza Kent. 
I don't think the bottom is too thin, is anything, it maybe a bit too thick from about the center going left to the cornicione.
I use 8oz of cheese on a 14" pizza, however it is your pizza, you put on it what you like. Toppings and amounts are your choice.
Bruce here... My cooking toys --> Pizza Party Emizione, Pellet Grill, Pellet Smoker, Propane Griddle, Propane Grill

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Offline kbrede

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Re: First NY style pizza
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2022, 12:09:56 PM »
Good lookin' pizza Kent. 
I don't think the bottom is too thin, is anything, it maybe a bit too thick from about the center going left to the cornicione.
I use 8oz of cheese on a 14" pizza, however it is your pizza, you put on it what you like. Toppings and amounts are your choice.

Thanks Bruce! I hadn't noticed how the crust isn't even in thickness from center to cornicione. I'll work on that. I've decided to go with more cheese next time. I thought it needed more and two of you have now confirmed that :)
-- Kent

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Gozney Roccbox
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Offline kbrede

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Re: Second NY Style Pizza
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2022, 08:57:29 PM »
The changes I made or attempted to make:
  • I put on 2.3 times more cheese.
  • Besides the two mozzarellas I used a bit of pecorino romano.
  • I tried a thicker crust. I went from a TF of ~0.0767 to 0.09.
  • I doubled the garlic powder and the oregano in the sauce.
  • I made the rim smaller.
  • Tried to use less flour during the build.
  • Tried to level the ramp.
  • I went from 2% salt to 2.5% in the dough.

What worked:
  • The overall flavor improved with the addition of more cheese and herbs.
  • I think I like the thicker crust, but I want to play with that some more.

What didn't work:
  • The cheese was a bit thick for my taste.
  • The pizza was a bit too salty. The extra salt in the crust and the pecorino romano pushed it over the edge for me.
  • Using less flour for the build was a disaster. I ended up with a buckle in the crust trying to get the peel under it, and ultimately had to use more flour than I normally would trying to throw flour under the dough to get it to slide.
  • Leveling the ramp was improved in some places but not all the way around.
  • I didn't like the smaller rim as much as the one before.

Modifications for next time:
  • Cut the total amount of cheese from 270g to ~200g.
  • Reduce the salt in the crust back to 2% and keep the pecorino romano for now.
  • Go back to how I managed flour for the build before but try wiping away any extra before sliding the peel under.
  • Keep working on an even stretch.
  • Go back to the prior rim size.
  • Use better tomatoes for the sauce.
-- Kent

Ovens:
Gozney Roccbox
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Offline Pizza Shark

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Re: First NY style pizza
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2022, 10:07:26 PM »
Wow!  Looking at your "first attempt" I'd say you had a few years worth of attempts under your belt.  That was a great looking pie! So, your second attempt wasn't to your liking.  Got to remember there is salt in the dough, the cheese, the sauce and then God forbid you put toppings on that have even more salt in them.  Salt is cumulative in a pie so when someone tastes their sauce and it tastes good that is a problem because that sauce is going to go under Mozz that salt in it, on a crust that has salt in it, and then throw sausage or pepperoni on top...  Before ya know it you have may as well be baking a salt lick for deer and the addition of Pecorino Romano may as well be a cheese salt shaker to top it all off. 

So, take the salt out of your sauce totally and if you use canned tomatoes for your sauce use unsalted canned tomatoes.  Cut way back on the salt in the dough but leave some in as bread without any salt tastes like, well, crap or newspaper.  As you assemble the pie on the peel just prior to baking do not shake that Pecorino Romano or Parm all over the pie... There is a little secret that very savvy pizza places do... They only shake the expensive grated Romano in the center of the pie prior to baking so when it gets cut the first bite that is taken comes from that center where that sharp, salty Romano was placed...  It's like pizza crack that hits hard and wears off as one eats their way through the rest of the slice and drives that desire to grab another slice right away.

With regard to your launch issue, don't dust your peel with flour.  I watch everyone everywhere on these how-to posts throwing more and more flour around and it is sickening.  Raw flour is gross... May as well be throwing baby powder all over the place and wonder why pie tastes like crap after being dredged in it and sprinkled with it over and over. 

Use just enough flour to stretch on your counter top and have your pizza peel nearby pre-dusted with coarse semolina flour.  That semolina is like millions of little ball bearings that let that fully topped skin slide right off and that semolina does not get into the dough for the most part... You pull the pie and give it a shake on a cooling rack and any that stuck to the bottom falls off while the rest in the oven on the stone gets swept away so there is a clean hearth for the next

Just my 2 cents
« Last Edit: November 15, 2022, 10:18:30 PM by Pizza Shark »

Offline kbrede

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Re: First NY style pizza
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2022, 10:41:37 PM »
Thanks for the tips Pizza Shark! I haven't tried semolina yet, I'll give that a go.
-- Kent

Ovens:
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: First NY style pizza
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2022, 01:03:27 PM »
Kent,

As many of our members know, my primary interest in pizza making has long been the science aspects. Even before I became a member of this forum, I had spent a lot of time over at the PMQ Think Tank where the late Tom Lehmann and others on the professional side regularly posted about the science and other technical aspects of pizza making. I even joined the PMQ Think Tank to be able to ask Tom questions. Naturally, I was very happy to see Tom come over to our forum when he retired. That allowed me to learn even more about the intricacies of pizza making.

I mention the above because earlier this year I recently a post in an effort to help another member who was new to pizza making. The post is long with a lot of links to other posts but I thought that you might want to take a look at that post because it touches upon many of the basics of pizza making as postulated by Tom. I also made reference to the exceptional work that Craig has done with one of his charts. It dovetails beautifully with the work that Tom did.

I theorize that understanding and mastering the basics leads to very good results with a minimum of errors but allowing plenty of room to make improvements and have fun doing so. The post I am referring to is Reply 4 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=73290.msg700406;topicseen#msg700406

I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank you for all of your efforts to welcome new members to the forum. That is a nice gesture that I am sure new members appreciate. It also makes the forum a better place to visit. Even Tom took notice when he said the following:

I've visited a lot of different type of forums over the years and one thing that I can attest to is that pizzamaking.com is one of the most sharing (by all participants), respectful and civil of all the forums....Pizzamaking.com, if not already, is well on its way to becoming the most recognized collective authority for knowledge for the home/hobby pizza maker in the world which is quite an achievement for all at Pizzamaking.com!

Peter

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: First NY style pizza
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2022, 01:13:31 PM »
Thanks for the tips Pizza Shark! I haven't tried semolina yet, I'll give that a go.
Kent,

You can read about Tom's favorite dusting blend at Reply 1 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=65020.msg637607#msg637607

Peter

Offline kbrede

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Re: First NY style pizza
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2022, 01:40:16 PM »

I theorize that understanding and mastering the basics leads to very good results with a minimum of errors but allowing plenty of room to make improvements and have fun doing so. The post I am referring to is Reply 4 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=73290.msg700406;topicseen#msg700406

Thanks for this Pete! Looks like I have some good reading ahead of me. :)

Quote
I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank you for all of your efforts to welcome new members to the forum. That is a nice gesture that I am sure new member appreciate. It also makes the forum a better place to visit.

Sure, this forum has helped me so much, it's the least I can do.  I can't help answer many questions at this point, but I can say "hi." :)
-- Kent

Ovens:
Gozney Roccbox
Samsung NX58H5650WS + 15"x20"x3/8" steel

Online DDT

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Re: First NY style pizza
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2022, 08:08:54 PM »
Wow!  Looking at your "first attempt" I'd say you had a few years worth of attempts under your belt.  That was a great looking pie! So, your second attempt wasn't to your liking.  Got to remember there is salt in the dough, the cheese, the sauce and then God forbid you put toppings on that have even more salt in them.  Salt is cumulative in a pie so when someone tastes their sauce and it tastes good that is a problem because that sauce is going to go under Mozz that salt in it, on a crust that has salt in it, and then throw sausage or pepperoni on top...  Before ya know it you have may as well be baking a salt lick for deer and the addition of Pecorino Romano may as well be a cheese salt shaker to top it all off. 

So, take the salt out of your sauce totally and if you use canned tomatoes for your sauce use unsalted canned tomatoes.  Cut way back on the salt in the dough but leave some in as bread without any salt tastes like, well, crap or newspaper.  As you assemble the pie on the peel just prior to baking do not shake that Pecorino Romano or Parm all over the pie... There is a little secret that very savvy pizza places do... They only shake the expensive grated Romano in the center of the pie prior to baking so when it gets cut the first bite that is taken comes from that center where that sharp, salty Romano was placed...  It's like pizza crack that hits hard and wears off as one eats their way through the rest of the slice and drives that desire to grab another slice right away.

With regard to your launch issue, don't dust your peel with flour.  I watch everyone everywhere on these how-to posts throwing more and more flour around and it is sickening.  Raw flour is gross... May as well be throwing baby powder all over the place and wonder why pie tastes like crap after being dredged in it and sprinkled with it over and over. 

Use just enough flour to stretch on your counter top and have your pizza peel nearby pre-dusted with coarse semolina flour.  That semolina is like millions of little ball bearings that let that fully topped skin slide right off and that semolina does not get into the dough for the most part... You pull the pie and give it a shake on a cooling rack and any that stuck to the bottom falls off while the rest in the oven on the stone gets swept away so there is a clean hearth for the next

Just my 2 cents

Your second paragraph made me laugh…my wife always takes her first bite of the corniccone.

Offline Pizza Shark

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Re: First NY style pizza
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2022, 08:10:39 PM »
Your second paragraph made me laugh…my wife always takes her first bite of the corniccone.

My wife starts at the center and prefers to work her way out to the bubbles... She saves the bubbles for very end of every slice! The more browned and blistered and bigger the bubbles the better in her opinion so I actually have found myself on a quest for more bubbles that most would frown upon for years... Higher hydration, no bench rest for a rise in dough temp, just a cold stretch being careful to leave that edge alone and leave all gasses in it.  At the end of the day I still can't "guarantee" bubbles all over edges.  I can guarantee a big, puffy cornicione but as far as those big bubbles go... Well, they either decide to show up or they don't. 

As crazy as this may sound, I've actually thought about pulling out my needle turkey injector that I have to inject butter and brine and such into birds...  Sticking that into the edge of the dough skin here and there to provide a little inflation and pockets of air that will expand during the bake.  However, I'm not gonna do that as that is downright nutty in my opinion when it comes to this weird pursuit of more bubbles for her.  At some point it's best to keep an idea such as that to myself and NEVER share or pursue it because if it were to work I'm screwed from here on having to pull out the turkey injector with every bake.       
« Last Edit: November 28, 2022, 08:19:49 PM by Pizza Shark »

Offline Travinos_Pizza

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Re: First NY style pizza
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2022, 10:35:32 AM »
This is what’s fun about preference. Someone said the crust was too wide, I think it would be great for dipping in marinara!!
- Travis

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