Pizza Making Forum

General Topics => Pizza Ovens => Pizza Making Equipment => Hearth Ovens => Topic started by: fagilia on December 30, 2012, 01:14:35 PM

Title: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on December 30, 2012, 01:14:35 PM
Finally my neapolitan WFO is underway after a long time of finding the right materials and information. Its been a bit hard to find same materials that people on US forums are using but now i am set i think. I have already got many good advice from people here and i am thankful.

Stand is made out of corten steel so hope it will have nice rusty look when mosaic is finished.

Insulation floor is 12 inch vermicrete 6:1 and 8:1. Insulation around soldiers only 6 inch since i made incorrect drawings, ops...

Floor lay on bed of dry sand fireclay mix. Hope it will not be a problem when moving the oven. Any thoughts?

Inside dia floor is 48 inch. Soldiers stand on floor. Inside hight of soldiers is 9,5 inch. Hight of dome have not exactly decided yet, but it should be low.

Floorbricks have maximum space between 1/12inch, and max 1/24inch vertical difference. Would this be a problem or will ash fill the space. Maby i will grind the vertical down if pizzapeel gets stuck. My bricks wrere not perfect. Any thoughts on this? Its some concern of mine right now..

I will try and do a nepolitan vent even though i have read all pros and cons about this. I have no idea how to make it but since i need to make a cap like an SF oven becuase there is no room for brick support in stand. I will simply do it since it will be nice to try something different. Hope it goes well:) I will make the cap big so hopefully the smoke finds its way up even during start up.

Oven entrance will be corten steel. I dont know exactly how to design it so it will hold up to the heat but probably soemting similar to acunto and sf ovens but more reinforced since those are casted as it seems.

Well happy new year everybody and i hope the oven will be ready in 3 months!!
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on December 30, 2012, 01:21:29 PM
Picture of the space between bricks which got larger and larger in the back of the oven.
The last bricks have the largest space but these will be under the soldiers so no probem there i think.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: breadstoneovens on December 30, 2012, 02:53:30 PM
Floor lay on bed of dry sand fireclay mix. Hope it will not be a problem when moving the oven. Any thoughts?

Inside dia floor is 48 inch. Soldiers stand on floor. Inside hight of soldiers is 9,5 inch. Hight of dome have not exactly decided yet, but it should be low.

Floorbricks have maximum space between 1/12inch, and max 1/24inch vertical difference. Would this be a problem or will ash fill the space. Maby i will grind the vertical down if pizzapeel gets stuck. My bricks wrere not perfect. Any thoughts on this? Its some concern of mine right now..
Your oven looks really good so far.
The fireclay mix should keep the brick in place just fine when you move it as long as you have something wrapped around it to make it tight like insulation or simply a metal band around it.
The slight vertical difference on the brick really shouldn't be a problem. No oven is perfect, they all have their little trick that makes them unique.
Don't sweat it too much, it is fantastic you are building your own oven and it will turn out great.

Antoine
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: shuboyje on December 30, 2012, 03:06:42 PM
Looking great!  Keep up the good work and keep the pictures coming. 
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: oratio on December 31, 2012, 07:52:30 PM
Häftigt :) Vad spännande!

I too look forward to reading about your progress. Please keep posting your thoughts and pictures.

Good luck, and happy new year!

 - Mike
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on January 03, 2013, 04:21:04 AM
One question i have tried to find the answeres for here in the forums is size of sand grain. I understand in the US you have 30grit etc.
problem is in Sweden we use millimeter to describe sand size.
I understand it would be good to have finer sand for smaller joints and courser for bigger joints like outside of dome.
So what would be good for small joints verus bigger joints if you translate it to inches or millimeters?
Thanks for comments by the way. I will be finished with the door next week so i can start the soldier course.

Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: breadstoneovens on January 03, 2013, 06:38:50 AM
Good morning,

that is a good question. From what I can remember the sand you are looking for is 0.2 millimeters. It should called something like fine masonry sand.
I am not sure you need a bigger sand for larger joint, but then it would be 0.5 millimeters for medium size.
Your local home improvement store should be able to tell you what they have.

Antoine
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on January 03, 2013, 08:08:33 AM
Actually, standard masonry sand (on the right) or play sand is fine for oven building, you would only need the fine sand (on the left) for making refractory cement for a fireplace where your joints would be 1/8 to 1/16.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: dellavecchia on January 03, 2013, 08:24:32 AM
Fantastic! Please continue to post pics of the build - what a great start to this oven.

John
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on January 04, 2013, 02:51:34 AM
ok thanks for answeres about sand. really hard to find sand finer than 1mm here in sweden. If you find, its really expensive. I will end up using sand 0-2 mm for my oven and it costs nothing. Ill post a drawing of the stand and pictures as soon as i can.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on January 04, 2013, 07:53:25 AM
Anything less than 5mm should be fine.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: JConk007 on January 04, 2013, 08:55:36 AM
Really Nice Build! Are you opening a pizzeria? 48" floor  is a big oven and will be quite capable of doing production pizzas  :pizza:
Did you mention the size and composition of the the floor bricks? they appear to be 2" thickness ?
Cant wait to see more pictures !
John
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on January 04, 2013, 04:32:19 PM
The floor bricks are 2,55 inches thick. I hope it will be enough?
No i wont open a pizzeria I think at least. But iam building it big anough for a pizzeria just in case. One can always dream..
Before I stumbled in to this forum I didnt even know i liked Pizza that much, but now I am adicted to this just like many others here seem to be.
Pizza seam to be a bigger thing in the US than in Sweden, here people just think iam totally crazy  ;D
There is actually not one single pizzeria in Sweden serving neapolitan clone pizza. Not to my knowledge at least.
Ps. Today i got my hands on my first bag of caputo pizzeria 00. He sells almost nothing of this flour..
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on January 08, 2013, 08:24:56 AM
Here is first drawing of stand.
I have not done any calculations for strenght but most reinforcements are under the heavy dome.
I think it will hold up at least.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on January 08, 2013, 08:27:00 AM
second drawing. Total Diameter of stand is appr. 71".
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: JConk007 on January 08, 2013, 09:07:42 AM
Nice work!! Heavy duty!! I believe you could land a helicopter on that should the oven not work out  :-D
John
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 04, 2013, 06:30:33 AM
Ok,
Due too tonsill surgery i had to postpone the build for some weeks.
Since iam using corten steel opening i figured i need to have insulation under the opening plate instead of
firebricks so it can cool of a bit. Also it was easier to fit perfectly into the floor.
The steel opening itself will go deeper into the oven than other neopolitan doors i have seen.
I will do this becuase i am not so good with mortar. I want the mortar on top of the door to have good support.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 04, 2013, 06:54:18 AM
The soldiers was mortared with 1:1:1:3 like most of the people here.
I was surprised how easy it was and how fast i could do it. Just like building lego :D
The soldiers i cut down to 8,2 inches since i never understod Marcos idea where he said
soldiers should be 22cm but then again the net hight should only be 18-19cm. So i made something in between.
The oven door is 44cm wide and 22cm high so this will maby cause some problems. We will see later on.

The biggest concern i have now is that the oven door is supporting the structure as you can see from the darker circles.
I did read jeffs comments on his first oven. I was actually suposed to build a vault around the oven door so the dome itself
could be selfsupported with help of buttress around the soldiers.
The door itseld is really thick corten steel and it is really heavy so i hopw to minimize this problem with steel moving in different pace
than mortar due to heat? Please if anybody thinks how i did it will destroy the whole oven please shout out so i quickly can run and tear it apart ;)
What i did was just to fit pieces in between the soldiers and the oven door. Imade it quickly and not so exact so i could finish everything from the door to the soldiers in one day.

As buttress i intend to have a metal lathe that i connect with the oven door that goes around the middle of the soldiers.
I will most defenitely also have a metal lathe that goes around the angled pieces of firebricks that will go ontop of the soldiers. This lathe will not be connected
to the oven door since it is to high up.
Before i attach the butress i am planning to put a fibre insulation blanket around the the soldiers. I figured i now both could make the lathe less hot and at the same time easily attach the blanket around the soldiers.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 04, 2013, 07:00:43 AM
As you can see there is some room between the the entry and the soldiers. I did this because i both saw it on SF builds and I also thought i could fit some fibre blanket here to make the oven door less hot.
My firend Besmir who works with mortar stopped by and told me everything was a mess and dirty so he started to clean up:)
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 04, 2013, 07:04:55 AM
Just a look from the oven door.
I will let it rust to get that nice finish.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 04, 2013, 07:12:59 AM
Please if anybody sees anything that looks crazy or wrong just let me know since i am a totaly beginner at this. I just do what feels right. I have no knowledge to back up my actions.


I have spent many hours watching this picture thinking two things.

1: How does he mortar around the oven door if he places the soldiers so close to the door? Is he using the door as support or not? Also if he uses the door frame as support why is the frame not as far into the oven as the soldiers?

2: Is he even using any buttress? There is no room for insulation as buttress at least from what i can tell. When looking at the mobile ovens like this it seems there is almost no insulation at all ???
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 04, 2013, 07:16:16 AM
Another picture where you can se on left side of oven door it seems that first soldier is really close to the door.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 04, 2013, 07:19:09 AM
There has been some discussion of insulation of neapolitan ovens and here might be one idea. The leca stones in the background? I guess he must use it for something right.
I think i have spammed my own thread:)
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on February 04, 2013, 08:09:25 AM
Where are those pictures from, please?
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 04, 2013, 08:30:54 AM
I actually dont know. Probably found them surfing around the web somewhere. Sorry couldnt help you there
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: norma427 on February 04, 2013, 09:29:17 AM
Where are those pictures from, please?

Tom,

I also saw those same pictures on facebook, but can’t recall where I saw them.  I don’t want to derail this thread, but if you want me to look for them I will.  I think Raffaele Vassallo pictures are interesting if you have facebook.  https://www.facebook.com/raffaele.vassallo.9/photos_stream

Norma 
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 04, 2013, 09:50:25 AM
No problem intereseting by the way I havent seen them. Thanks
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: andreguidon on February 04, 2013, 02:30:38 PM
Faglia,

I am also researching allot about Neapolitan oven's, i have some interesting pictures, but i think the isolation is done in some type of porous brick like this picture.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on February 04, 2013, 03:31:15 PM
It is most likely chunks of tufa.  Going by TxCraigs, it is a minimal insulator.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: shuboyje on February 04, 2013, 05:40:58 PM
Tom

Did you confirm that Craigs oven was insulated with tufa?  Mario Acunto has changed the gallery on their website but at one point showed the ovens being insulated with a  cast product of some sort that looked similar to perlcrete.  I thought maybe it was a concrete with a tufa aggregate..

Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on February 04, 2013, 06:03:24 PM
No, but every picture I have seen that is what it looks like.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: shuboyje on February 04, 2013, 07:14:22 PM
I wish those pictures were still there.  It basically looked like they built the ovens basic form out of the large mesh first, then put the insulation on as a castable or maybe even gunnable.  Definitely not slabs of Tufa hacked to shape like the other Neapolitan builders I've seen.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on February 04, 2013, 07:33:29 PM
I could see where they would use a castable with tufa as aggregate.  Regardless, it is still not a very good insulator, I would consider it to be mass, not insulation.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 04, 2013, 07:48:43 PM
It's a cement-clay mixture.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: shuboyje on February 04, 2013, 07:50:11 PM
I could see where they would use a castable with tufa as aggregate.  Regardless, it is still not a very good insulator, I would consider it to be mass, not insulation.

Yup, that's been my feeling for a while now.  As I have explained before, it even explains how the Neapolitan vent would cut fuel consumption.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: shuboyje on February 04, 2013, 07:50:52 PM
It's a cement-clay mixture.

I love when people remind me I'm not crazy.  Thanks Craig!

So it's probably an expanded clay like they use in hydroponics:
http://www.hydroponics-simplified.com/leca.html
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 04, 2013, 07:51:41 PM
The shell of the structure is steel.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on February 04, 2013, 07:59:51 PM
And in lightweight concrete, that is what is used for modern CMU, not "cinder", but it is still very dense compared to perlcrete.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: BrickStoneOven on February 05, 2013, 08:13:46 AM
Where are those pictures from, please?
There were a lot of pictures in this article but I guess they took most of them down. It was of his factory and had a lot of pictures of ovens being built. Maybe he didn't want other people knowing how they were built. http://www.dissapore.com/cucina/stefano-ferrara-si-fa-presto-a-dire-forno/
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: andreguidon on February 05, 2013, 08:59:44 AM
this guys have allot of photos...

https://www.facebook.com/mgforni

https://www.facebook.com/MvNapoliForni2

they where the same company before, now they have split....
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: JConk007 on February 06, 2013, 02:59:15 PM
Andre ,
Any chance you could shed done light on who's who in the zoo? Between MG and MV. Have you spoken with or corresponded with either if them do just pictures?  I am very confused as to who's what ettore , rafaelle , so many names and so much broken English when I communicate with them via email? They are  2 completely separate companies correct?
Either way those ovens are quite sweet ! As well as this build
Thanks for keeping us in the loop
What's the ETP
Estimated time til pizza!?
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: andreguidon on February 06, 2013, 03:27:45 PM
John,

I will find out, because at first there was 2 raffaele, one was a guy that worked with Stefano Ferrara his name is Raffaele Vasallo, and the other is a Raffaele that deals the ovens, now they are MG forni, i have no idea who is MV forni, next time his is on line on FB ill ask him...

Now about the EPT... this week is carnaval here in Brazil, so ill have 4 days (Saturday till Tuesday) and for sure will make some pizza.... Just got a case (6 large cans) of Ciao Pomodoro.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: dellavecchia on February 06, 2013, 06:07:11 PM
I will find out, because at first there was 2 raffaele, one was a guy that worked with Stefano Ferrara his name is Raffaele Vasallo, and the other is a Raffaele that deals the ovens, now they are MG forni, i have no idea who is MV forni, next time his is on line on FB ill ask him...

(Information from Matthew)

Raffaele Vasallo is the "V" in MV Forni. He worked for Stefano Ferrara's father for many years. After Stefano's father passed away he ventured out on his own. His partner is Rafaelle Mele (the "M").

John
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: andreguidon on February 07, 2013, 04:48:53 AM
Well, i know now that Raffaele Mele is MG forni, i just went over my FB chat History and Raffaele Mele has signed a message from MG forni. Maybe he split with Vasallo??
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 07, 2013, 04:54:11 AM
Interestings discussions only too bad nobody comments my who build and if iam making any mistakes with it :-D

Anyways Leca stones is like jeff said exapanded clay. Its used a lot in Sweden and Europe as a substitut for lightweight concrete.
I would for example have used leca concrete blocks if i would have build a stand in concrete for my wfo. I dont exactly know
about the isolations values I only know its not that good, more or less the same as lightweight concrete i think.

Tom said neapolitan more use our insulation as extra mass instead off insulation. This gets me thinking that i might have too little mass in my own
oven if it would be a commercial one. I have 2,6inch floor and 4.5 in walls?

If building an commercial oven what mass should you then have?
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on February 07, 2013, 07:57:35 AM
Just because it is for commercial use does not mean than it should not be insulated, it should, technically be much heavier insulated* than  one for episodic use.  It should or can have more mass, 4-6" would maintain  recovery for the walls, 2-4 for the floor.



* To reduce heat in the working environment and to maintain temps when not in use to reduce startup time.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 07, 2013, 09:02:01 AM
Ok thanks.
My oven is then in the lower margin. It will be interesting to see the result when baking lets say 40 pizzas in a row for a party..
Iam also exited to see in what ratio the pizza will be ready bottom compared to top..
How much i will have to dome it etc.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: shuboyje on February 07, 2013, 09:30:50 AM
Have you decided on a dome height?  That will play a huge factor in the need to dome pizzas.  In my opinion if the oven is in balance you never need to dome a pizza.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: andreguidon on February 07, 2013, 11:18:22 AM
Got the info.

MG forni is Raffaele Mele
MV forni is Raffaele Vasallo

they are not together any more.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 07, 2013, 12:24:40 PM
I intend to use pizzanapoletanas guidelines of domehight diameter/3.4.
I was just confused about his comments on soldier hight 22 cm which means net hight of 18 to 19 cm. So i made the soldiers 20.5  :D
Any comments on this to get the right ratio for neapolitan pizza. I am not interested to cock anything else than this really.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 07, 2013, 12:28:21 PM
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1118.0.html

There is the link to what i refer to. I guess most people here have read it already...
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: andreguidon on February 07, 2013, 12:45:05 PM
Faglia, Just go 2cm higher with the dome, this is not going to make any difference.... none of the neapolitan ovens have exactly the same hight, all of them are made by an artisan, and 2cm of difference is not an imperfection...
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: dellavecchia on February 07, 2013, 07:20:49 PM
Got the info.

MG forni is Raffaele Mele
MV forni is Raffaele Vasallo

they are not together any more.

Sorry for the off topic: Andre - was this recent? I got a quote from Mele a few months ago under MV Forni.

John
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: andreguidon on February 08, 2013, 05:33:58 AM
John this is recent... i have no idea what happened....

the email on MV forni is Vasallo's email, and the contact on MG forni is Mele's.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 08, 2013, 08:04:13 AM
No worries John, This is a interest of mine to so.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 11, 2013, 10:15:37 AM
Ok,
The oven is now ready for the sand form. Tried to get sand from the beach haha but it was like ice and rock hard.
Ill guess i have to buy some then..

Instead of creating a angeled ring with fire brick over the oven opening i got lazy and just mixed upp vermiculite and some lime, portland cement and clay. Think ratio was 4:1:0,5:0,5 or something like that. I thought i was smart here but after some thinking i thought this might be a problem due to forces in the oven and also the heat. Would not be grat if there got to be a crack in the vermiculite mix which would maby cause some problems. In any case i will have steel harness around the whole angled firebrick course something like stovemasters that you can see in next reply.

Does anyone have an opinion then please tell me.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 11, 2013, 10:16:48 AM
here is the link to stovemaster:

http://www.stovemaster.com/html_en/residental_brick_ovens.html

Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 11, 2013, 10:17:44 AM
sorry the first picture at the top:

http://www.stovemaster.com/html_en/commercial_brick_oven.html
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: shuboyje on February 11, 2013, 12:57:50 PM
I think what you did over the arch is fine, all it needs to do the way you built it is take the load of the dome and transfer it to the steel via compression.  It should do that fine.  

I notice you did not stagger the joints on your upper soldier, make sure you stagger them in the dome.  

What sort of dome profile are you using?  The angle on top of your soldier looks a little steep and has me wondering if you are going to follow Marco's advice there too and have it flatter in the middle?

BTW, looks awesome!
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 11, 2013, 04:07:26 PM
Please Jeff can you explain what you mean exactly with stagger the upper soldiers? Sorry but i did not understand this.
When i came up with the angle on the soldiers i used the forno bravo plan for a low dome and transfered it to a build with even lower dome.
The angle is steeper in the start like you said and a more flatter roof in the middle. But to me it sounds crazy to have a flat roof. Will it really hold up when some force is placed on top?

I actually dont know if it is even possible to do like marcos picture and also how nesessary it is for a good pizza reslult it is? Anyone have an idea?

Therefore i made the angle to fit a flatter roof but if i decide to use a more even angle across the roof i can always fill the bigger gap with mortar in the first course of the dome.

In the picture one can see that i mortared the vermicultie in same radius as the rest of the angled soldiers. Therefore i can use a perfectly round harness around the soldiers.

Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 11, 2013, 04:14:28 PM
ahhhh what a mistake haha. My good i think i know what jeff means here. The joint on uppersoldiers should not be in same place in circle as in the lower soldier?
How big of a problem would this be then?
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 11, 2013, 05:02:11 PM
I don't think it is going to matter. It might even be stronger the way you built it as the weight of the dome will be completely borne by brick. If you staggered the second tier, a large part of the weight would be over the mortar columns on the back side of the soldier course. Your metal band will prevent any separation. Definitely stagger each course from this point up.

Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: shuboyje on February 11, 2013, 09:02:23 PM
I agree with Craig, what you have done so far is no big deal, just make sure you stagger the joints in the dome.

I asked about the dome profile because of your plan for the steel harness reinforcement.  A simple arched profile will put all it's outward force on the top of the soldier where you are reinforcing.  A shape like Marco described would not, so it is something to consider structurally speaking.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on February 11, 2013, 10:06:04 PM
A flat roof would rely on adhesion, I do not recommend that.  It is possible to create a lense shape and still reach the ceiling height you want.  I was actually surprised that the angle required for a 42", 15-1/2" dome was 45 degrees on the sailor course, I thought it would be be more.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 12, 2013, 11:15:26 AM
Here are my thoghts.
I am more leaning towards the half lens half elipse version, but iam not 100% sure.
The other line in the drawings is a perfect lens even thogh i dont know exactly if i have the terminology right.
Iam leaning to half lens half elipse beacuse of ease of building it. Both versions can fit my upper soldier angle.
In both versions the total hight will be appr. diameter/3,2 with soldier hight of appr. 8,5 ".
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: shuboyje on February 12, 2013, 11:45:46 AM
For structural reasons I would personally build the lens shaped line you have in both versions.  I don't think the compound arch makes much difference, and although probably not a fatal structural issue it isn't ideal with the way you plan to reinforce.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 12, 2013, 12:54:22 PM
I agree with an ellipse, but not exactly how you have drawn it.

I would think the foci of the ellipse would be F1) approximately the center of the fire and F2) approximately the center of the baking pie (such that the edge of the pie is a couple inches off the wall).

Keep in mind that the foci of the ellipse are on the deck - not on the plane across the top of the soldier course. The soldier course truncates the edges of the ellipse, so you are only building the top part of the ellipse which looks somewhat like your "half lens" design.

In the drawing below, the dome height is H1, however, arched portion of the dome is only H2 = H1 - soldier height.

(Illustration not to scale)
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 12, 2013, 03:52:28 PM
Ok,

Actually Craig the so called half lens I did is more or less the same to what you did draw. I just couldnt explain my self there ;)

When comparing craigs suggestion and jeffs and toms suggestions there seem to be only minor differences if i got it all correctly.
When i did it in right scale craigs design was more like a lens shape than i first did draw in my half lens half ellipse design.

Would this then work better you think jeff given my reinforcement strategy?

Thanks a lot by the way, this would have been a big fail without everybodys help.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 12, 2013, 03:53:33 PM
Comparison of lens and craigs ellipse..
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: kiwipete on February 12, 2013, 04:14:36 PM
Very interesting topic this, because I'm considering these things for my own oven at the moment.

So the difference between the two curves is about 7-8 millimetres..

My gut feel says that its negligible in terms of structural impact and just go with the one that you prefer / find easiest to do.

Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: shuboyje on February 12, 2013, 06:10:13 PM
Yup, as drawn in the newest drawing I think you are fine, but am curious to hear what Tom thinks.  I feel the tiny amount of force that will not be directed to the steel harness is well within the limits of what mortar can handle, but Tom is an expert on that type of thing, I'm just going by gut. 
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on February 12, 2013, 06:26:13 PM
I personally don't like the steel band, but since you are using it, you could technically make it flat and under compression by tensioning the band, so either way will be fine.  I would say that a continuous curve will be easier to build than that varies, though.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 12, 2013, 06:26:55 PM
I would say that a continuous curve will be easier to build than that varies, though.

Even with a sand form?
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on February 12, 2013, 07:58:21 PM
I haven't used a sand form, but I do not think it is as simple as laying the brick upon the sand; you still have to position it correctly.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: shuboyje on February 12, 2013, 08:13:26 PM
It's darn close, lol.  Of course take that with a grain of salt, my oven has a very low very flat dome.  Obviously the steeper you go the more positioning that will be needed. 
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 13, 2013, 03:06:53 AM
From the start i was planning to either a buttress with insulation concrete or something similar to what tom did. But, i had never worked with mortar really before and it looked to complicated so i went for a steel reinforcement. We will see how it goes but i will defenitely put som tension on the steel harness and make it fit tightly to the soldiers.

Jeff, i dont really understand why a more ellipse shape would cause more problems in the steel harness design than a lens shape would?
Is it that the forces from the dome will be more directed to the lower parts of the soldiers compared to a lens shape?

In my build i did already plan to have a metal band both in upper part of angle-soldiers and one extra at 2/3 distance up on the lower part soldiers. I dont know if it will be  nessesary but i figured it would not hurt either. This second metal band will be connected to the oven door.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 13, 2013, 05:40:00 AM
I dont know exactly how the forces from the dome will affect the soldiers?
This is what i can think of but is it correct, and is this what you mean Jeff?
Maby this is of no big matter but iam just curious...
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: shuboyje on February 13, 2013, 11:00:23 AM
I made a simple drawing to explain the issue I'm mentioned earlier.  Like I have said, I do not think this is an issue with your current plan.  I made the arch in the drawing exaggerated to better show what I am talking about. 
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 13, 2013, 12:52:25 PM
Ok thanks, now i understad and it makes sense.
Will try to make the sandform during this weekend.


Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 13, 2013, 01:10:35 PM
I agree it is not a problem with your current design. The Line of Thrust (“LT”) in an arch follows the inverted shape the corresponding catenary curve. That is, if you freely suspended a length of chain from the center points of the angled buttresses on top of your solders, the LT through the arch would follow this same (inverted) curve. The closer you keep the LT to the center of the voussoirs, the more stable the arch. As the LT moves away from the center, it creates tensile stress on the opposite side.  That is what Jeff noted as “outward force” on his drawing in Response 77 – you can see that the inverted catenary curve would be well inside of that point creating tensile stress there. As long as the LT is within the center 1/3 of the thickness of the arch, you should be fine. My guess is that the truncated ellipse fairly closely approximates a catenary arch.

I think your drawing in Response 76 is incorrect in a couple ways. First, the LT, or “Force” as you called it, is independent of the shape of the dome arch. As noted above, it is a function of the corresponding catenary curve.  Second, the force is not going to be directed into the solider as indicated. My guess is that the LT vector will be on the opposite side of the solider.  I think this is important as it what likely necessitates a minimum of two bands (above and below the mortar line on top of the soldiers.

The solider is part of the arch. As you can see below, the LT exits the arch somewhere near the top of the solider. Clearly, this creates an extremely unstable condition.  The Thrust vector is the resultant force of the Horizontal Thrust and Weight vectors.  The soldiers will bear all the weight of the dome, but the direction of the Thrust vector is not orthogonal to the long axis of the brick, hence the need for reinforcement in the form of the bands or some other reinforcement.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 15, 2013, 03:06:19 PM
Thank you so far guys.
I even think and hope these discussions will help other builders since it is high level stuff at least for me.
Iam waiting for my vermicrete mix over the door to dry. I want make sure it will be stable before i move on.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 15, 2013, 03:08:25 PM
I'm excited for you. I think you are going to have an awesome oven.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: andreguidon on February 15, 2013, 03:19:37 PM
faglia have you seen this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka9MxWsHc00
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 15, 2013, 03:32:36 PM
faglia have you seen this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka9MxWsHc00

Looks like it is blocked in the US darn it.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: andreguidon on February 15, 2013, 03:54:15 PM
Looks like it is blocked in the US darn it.

really? thats weird, iam in Brazil, and everything is blocked here, and i can see it just fine...
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 15, 2013, 04:58:17 PM
This is how it comes up for me. I'm not sure I've ever even seen this screen before.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Jet_deck on February 15, 2013, 08:03:31 PM
That is the exact screen I got this afternoon. EMI is a music company?
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on February 15, 2013, 09:51:15 PM
Yeah, matched content, I have that problem with some videos, they are blocked in various countries, though not here (mine that is).
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: shuboyje on February 15, 2013, 10:26:36 PM
Load the page through proxfree with a french IP and it works. 
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 16, 2013, 06:02:47 AM
Thanks andre.
Havent seen it so thanks som good fotage about the vent cap.
Actually first time i found pizzamaking was on the beach of barra rdj.
I was so angry since the rio pizza tasted like crap. I intended to build a wfo on the beach there but then ifound braz and it was desent. Actually i spend at least 2 months a year in rio training bjj.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: andreguidon on February 16, 2013, 07:45:55 AM
Faglia i live in São Paulo, and i know that pizza in RJ is not as good as pizza in SP, but still, there is allot to learn here... you come to Brazil every year?
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 17, 2013, 05:45:42 AM
Yes at least i try to make time to come. Unfortunately i couldnt go this year because i did a knee surgery.
Mas este ano eu vou com certeza.
I have never been in sau paulo maby i should go? I get so lazy in Brazil I have never even visited the corcovado even though i have been in rio for at least 1 year in total:)
Actually my ultimate dream was to start pizzeria in Brazil but it is defenitely crazy business compared to swedish systems.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: andreguidon on February 17, 2013, 05:56:03 AM
you did not visit the corcovado? that is one amazing view!
São Paulo is totally different from Rio de Janeiro, there is no natural beauty like Rio, it more of a business/cultural city, but you eat much better here that in Rio. Its very hard for a foreigner to open a business... but not impossible!
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 19, 2013, 02:31:34 PM
Some updates on the build.
I made a sandform by cutting the right arch in a piece of plywood. I controled the hight at the top as well as the hight on the soldiers to get an even dome.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 19, 2013, 02:33:19 PM
The finished sandform.
By the way its my friend besmir who is on all pictures. For some reason he got all exited about the oven and now he is in charge of the mortar:)
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 19, 2013, 02:39:40 PM
I was supposed to ask questions here before making the actual first course, but my friend pusshed me to it today so we did.
I had some questions about the positioning of the bricks that Tom did mention was important, and i was wondering more exactly what he meant?

When laying down the bricks we just put down the bricks onto the sandform as close to the angled soldiers and the brick next to it as possible. We placed home brew mortar on the lower half of the brick before putting it in place. Then we filled the rest of the gap with some more homebrew 3:1:1:1.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 19, 2013, 02:41:31 PM
One more picture of the first course. The sandform is just sand that we tapped down with our hands bit by bit. Then we used our tool to make it even. No water or portland or clay. Dont know but it seems to work.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 19, 2013, 02:43:48 PM
here is a video of how we pushed mortar into the gaps :-\
Only took 45 minutes to do almost the whole first course.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEJdnKrtxwk&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: kiwipete on February 19, 2013, 02:52:08 PM
Looking good!

Like the idea of doing video, which often tells/shows so much more than just pictures. Keep it up please!

Peter
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 19, 2013, 02:55:49 PM
The biggest concern i have is to even out the brick courses of the dome close to the door so it becomes totally circular.
Now it is not circular close to the door as you can see in the picture.
I am thinking to even out this circle in to steps so after the second course is finished the cicle should be almost perfect.
Any ideas if this is a good plan?
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 19, 2013, 02:57:22 PM
Ok ill go the video way from now on why not. Guess its also easier to tell if iam doing anything wrong at the same time  ;D
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: kiwipete on February 19, 2013, 03:27:34 PM
The biggest concern i have is to even out the brick courses of the dome close to the door so it becomes totally circular.
Now it is not circular close to the door as you can see in the picture.
I am thinking to even out this circle in to steps so after the second course is finished the cicle should be almost perfect.
Any ideas if this is a good plan?

That's how I would do it..
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 19, 2013, 04:01:21 PM
I'm curious why you didn't band it before building the dome?
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on February 19, 2013, 04:03:52 PM
Or you could shave those brick over the door on the next course and be done with it.  Now you should mind the joints, put the head joints in the center of the brick of the previous course (or as close as is possible without cutting of brick).
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on February 19, 2013, 04:08:50 PM
Looking good, BTW.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 19, 2013, 04:31:33 PM
Looking good, BTW.

+1
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 19, 2013, 05:04:39 PM
Ok thanks tom now i understand what you mean.
Craig. I just couldnt get a hold of the right steel for this moment. It would slow the progress down to much to wait and i figured the sandform would keep the forces in place for the time being.
I will shave the bricks in esiest way i can. One or two courses depending of ease. Thanks
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: shuboyje on February 19, 2013, 08:35:46 PM
I did it the same way, I figured I didn't need any lateral reinforcement until the sand form came out since it was supporting the weight of the dome.

What is your plan for the triangular gaps that will form as you get further into the dome?
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on February 19, 2013, 09:04:27 PM
I just watched the video, that was painful.  Just do what he is doing at :20, i.e. fill it by scraping motion, not pushing it in.  With the level of hydration you are using, a grout bag would also work.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 20, 2013, 02:36:06 AM
Hahaha i can just imagine your feelings Tom, when you saw that:)
My firend actually told me the same thing. He told me i looked like more like a dentist than a manson... Good for me he doesnt read this forum :angel:
Thats why movies are so good just keep the critisism coming guys, its the only way i can improve off course.

Half of the first course we used more firm mortar and the next half more wet. Does it make any difference. I think I read one comments of yours Tom saying that hydration level wasnt as important in mortar as in concrete? The question is if the mortar is to wet to be perfect, that i was using in the video?


Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 20, 2013, 02:43:00 AM
Thanks by the way Jeff now i feel more safe, but i will probably do the metal bands as soon as i can.

My plan when bigger triangular gaps occur is non existing...
But it makes sense in my head to cut the brick a little bit to make the triangles smaller at the same time, but still keep them rectangular, no angles or so?
How wide/thick should the maximum joints be from the inside of the dome? That would be the question.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: satgan on February 20, 2013, 06:30:12 AM
fagilia have you seen this slide show

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/05/donatella-arpaias-wood-fired-pizza-oven-built-by-stefano-ferrara-first-in-nyc-slideshow.html?ref=search#
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on February 20, 2013, 07:39:25 AM
There is a way to butter the brick to be sure and fill the triangles that will be there (since you have no access to the inside until completed), but I do not know if words alone can describe it. If I get time I will try and draw a crude diagram.  Drier is not better for mortar, but you don't want soup either.  The mortar looked about right.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: dirk3000 on February 20, 2013, 08:22:25 AM
Nice work man!

Good luck on bringing back the circle in the courses,  I know it's very hard and if you don't correct it right, it will keep showing up in every course only bigger...

Btw, for what I can see here, I've built some ovens in almost just the same way you are doing now, and they still work beautiful.
 
But what's your mortar recipe? I didn't see you mentioned it, probably overlooked it
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 20, 2013, 09:26:05 AM
ok, I think many here would appreciate it if you did Tom. Until then ill just try and do my best pushing it in there.
Yes i have seen the slideshow and now i did see he does not care to much about lining up the stones and i might cut the bricks a little earlier
than he SF is. I guess he knows exactly what he is doing by experience.

The mortar iam using is what most recommend from reading. its 3 part sand: 1 part hydrated lime: 1 part clay: 1 part portland.
To find the right lime and the right clay was my biggest challenge so far. US systems differ alot from ours.
I did not find refactory mortar that was good for bigger joints like the ones on my oven. I sure did try though.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 20, 2013, 09:27:44 AM
I will correct the bricks as perfect as i can from the start, good advice..
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: dirk3000 on February 20, 2013, 09:51:59 AM
Maybe in your country you should look for aluminium cement, that's the stuff refractory mortar is made of. It might also be available in art supply stores, since sculptors use it alot to make castings of their sculptures. You can mix it yourself with sand to make mortar.
This 3:1:1:1 is fine though.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: shuboyje on February 20, 2013, 10:07:24 AM
I really like the Neapolitan method of dealing with the triangles because it allows you to fill them in while also building the dome at a much faster pace.  Here in the US I couldn't find any refractory products designed to use as wet as you see Steffano applying his so I used a drier mix, but it still worked great.   
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on February 20, 2013, 10:24:49 AM
I can't draw for crap, so I took a picture.  Obviously, the brick is pictured upside down.

Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 20, 2013, 03:15:26 PM
Thats kind of how i did it to, just that I did slide the brick into place and some mortar was left in the higher part of the brick. Now i more squised and pushed them into place and it worked perfect. There was small amounts ofmortar coming out on all sides.
By the way i did made the circle perfect on the first course, it made sense not to do the same trouble twice:)
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 22, 2013, 04:16:37 PM
A few more pictures here: http://www.unoforno.com/faq_about_hand_made_brick_ovens.html
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on February 22, 2013, 07:48:22 PM
The more I see of the construction of that oven, the less I like it.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 23, 2013, 04:15:29 AM
Been working at least one hour every evening with the oven and hope to finish the dome before the next week. There are some things iam not so sure about the oven. Eg. The mortar is not rockhard yet maby its because its so cold where the oven stands probably 7 celcius.
I will also start and put som time into brick cutting to make joints smaller because of the doubts with th mortar.
The only strenght issue that i can really feel and you can almost see it when looking at the oven is the door part. Just doesnt feel right in my mind. I doo think did something smart here but too advanced for me maby.
I also really think i have to make the buttress really carefully. If i would redo i think casable or simiöar is better.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 23, 2013, 10:18:01 AM
I mean i thought jeff did something smart ;D
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: dhs on February 23, 2013, 11:32:08 AM
Nice looking oven build! Based on the amount of research you have done, I am fairly sure you have seen some pics of my oven build in some old posts here. I can't add too much to the discussion but would suggest you not waste time mortaring each individual brick as you build the dome. If you go and find the Slice.SeriousEats.com photo gallery showing the building of the Donatella's oven in NYC by Stefano Ferrara, you will see he just pours on the mortar. I did it that way after individually mortaring a couple of rows in the dome. You have to move quick but it does a great job and takes almost no time in comparison. I did used a thin stick or something of that sort to force the mortar into joints as best I could. If mortar does not make it all the way down in between, no sweat. It won't make any difference in use.

Also, I used a stainless steel cable to control outward movement of the soldier course. I feel fairly confident that it was overkill since I could only get the cable sort of tight but have not seen any cracking of mortar that would indicate movement.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 24, 2013, 12:47:28 PM
ok, thanks. I know when the oven is finished and hopefully working good i will probably see that i did some things overkill. Just to be on the safeside on the first time here. I sort of did like the donatella pictures but with a more dry version. Something in between normal mortar and wet slurry. I the bottom i always did put normal mortar.
I was thinking what would happen to the mortar when all the water was gone if i used a wet slutty. Would it not shrink then?
In any case here is how i got the circle back on track.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 24, 2013, 12:52:37 PM
as you can see iam using all sorts of bricks new and old ones. the oven will look crazy from the inside different colors!
But it dont matter to me at all only the preformance is important.
I could use the mast in the middle to check the measurments all the way it varies at maximum 4 mm.
Think i started to cut bricks a bit smaller here
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 24, 2013, 12:59:48 PM
The last three rows or so we strated to cut bricks more like a pizza slice. Dont know but it made sense to keep the joints small we also hade time so it didnt matter it took more time.
I will close the dome tomorrow i think. Iam thinking of going one course more with smaller pizza slices and then finish with one small cut key stone at the top.

As far as possible i tried to overlap joints from previous course but sometimes it was pretty close though. If i was close i just made the next brick a little bit bigger so it overlapped more.

Thanks for all the advices from everybody so far :pizza:
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 24, 2013, 01:10:59 PM
You're going to band it before you take the sand out, right?
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 24, 2013, 05:10:00 PM
Yes defenitely ;D
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on February 24, 2013, 06:59:15 PM
Looks great.  As long as the brick "lip" the other it is all good.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on February 25, 2013, 02:06:40 PM
Ok the dome is closed and think it looks alright. Gonna have some vacation from the wfo for a week. My girlfriend is kind of me being away until late every night  :-D
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on March 11, 2013, 03:53:27 PM
Alright finally the steel bands are finnished.
Made them out of stainless since it holds better for heat.
Iam going to attatch them in the weekend.

I booked a trip to naples yesterday for one week in may. Any suggestions on part of town to stay in? Walking distance to great pizzerias if possible. I plan to visit 4 pizzerias per day so  24 at minimum.
The plan is to eat 1 pizza at every place :pizza:
Iam gonna review them all one by one on youtube if you guys are interested...
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: andreguidon on March 11, 2013, 03:59:41 PM
http://www.napolibandb.it/

i stayed at this place, room with a private bathroom right in the middle of historic center of Naples, you must have in a 500m circle around 20 of the "famous" places...
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on March 14, 2013, 04:32:57 PM
Thanks.. looks perfect for me and my girlfriend..
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on March 19, 2013, 03:09:12 PM
Here is the metal bands around the oven. After this picture i did fill all the spaces between the oven and the metal band with mortar due to not perfectly circle outside the oven. After that i did put more tension in the band and carved out all the sand.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on March 19, 2013, 03:13:53 PM
The inside of the oven did look like crap.. :D Had to clean it and scrape of bits of mortar hanging down. I also hade to fill up spaces that did not have mortar from the inside. If somebody gonna do like me make sure to watch Toms picture of how to put mortar on the brick or do as Jeff describes.
But fortunately there was only about 6 places where i had to fill in extra mortar.
Anyways iam happy that the dome has not collapsed yet!!! The dome looks really cool even if its not as pretty and clean as i have seen other places.
It feels really low and flat too..
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on March 19, 2013, 03:16:58 PM
in picture one can see that i sure have some places where the joints collide. Didnt look like that from above when i did it but hopefully it will hold. This is only the case in first 3 courses thankfully..
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: andreguidon on March 19, 2013, 03:41:54 PM
Faglia, the Dome looks perfect!
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on March 19, 2013, 03:51:59 PM
Looks great!  you can use commercial/agricultural vinegar to clean the joints up.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on March 19, 2013, 04:54:19 PM
thanks andre and Tom,
Vineagar is good for a lot of things it seems, just used it to clean up a mold attack in my bathroom...
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on March 21, 2013, 03:03:55 PM
Next step is to make the neapolitan vent like sf and acunto ovens. Trickiest part since i cant understand what it is that holds the cap from collapsing? I understand i will have to use an angle iron connected to my metal bands. But will this be enough. Any ideas here are welcome..
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: nyyankees325 on April 03, 2013, 11:05:11 AM
http://ilvinodatavola.wordpress.com/2013/03/24/forza-napoli-the-construction-of-our-stefano-ferrera-pizza-ovens/ (http://ilvinodatavola.wordpress.com/2013/03/24/forza-napoli-the-construction-of-our-stefano-ferrera-pizza-ovens/)
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Svitlana on May 16, 2013, 12:12:40 PM
your oven looks amazing! have you finished it already? :) I have read all your post and I want to build oven like yours, maybe you can help me and give some advices where I can get more information about it? some sites or something else? Thanks:)
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 09, 2013, 02:12:44 AM
Hi guys,
I have been working hard and since i am in the the awning business i have had no time for the oven. ( summer in Sweden )

What i have done is the transition for the vent. Kindly i got measurments from Craig on his oven so thats what i used to some extent.

Today i will get the Rolled steel plate that i will use for the transition. I dont know how to explain it but you will see.

The biggest issue i have is to how i am supposted to get at least some insulation/stucco to stick to the rolled steel cap vent transition :)

I want to cover it somehow otherwise it will get burning hot.

Ill post pivtures soon of that too.

Hope to get this thread started again..

By the way I Went to Naples for Holiday for 1 week. I took a map and and i marked all the pizzerias i wanted to go to and then i Went Walking for 1 week haha. 24 pizzerias in total.. Now i know what to aim for..
Also what is really neapolitan pizza? None of the pizzerias i Went to was the same really. All have their special touch and also if i Went to the same pizzeria twice which happened they were different too? If judging on looks i would say most people here make nicer pizzas than most that i eat in Naples :)
If neapolitan pizza is pizzas that are made like they mostly do in Naples then you guys are surely making neapolitan pizza..
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 09, 2013, 02:13:27 AM
one more view
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 11, 2013, 03:05:46 AM
The steel transition will look something like this. As you can see there is a gap of 2 inches where i can fill out with soem insulation/stucco and finally Mosaic.
Question is though how am I going to get this insulation or stucco attached to the steel plate and how am I going to prevent cracks here.
Thanks for thoughts on this.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 11, 2013, 08:30:59 AM
Bye the way.
Iam planning to use a 270mm 10,6 inch pipe like the Picture below and then transition it to a 10 inch chimney. Any thoughts on this.
I will make the transition between the flue pipe and the vent over the oven almost like the Picture. Just cut a hole in the pipe.
As iam in a hurry i will just use rests of the firebriks i have to build the vent over the oven.
Only thing i Think of when doing the vent is to go from bigger to smaller at all times. I dont know much about draw in ventilation but it sounds smart :D
Picture is from some sf build i found on facebook.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Jeep Pizza on July 11, 2013, 09:39:16 PM
Where in Sweden are you located? I would like to come by and admire your work the next time I am there if time permits.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on July 11, 2013, 10:08:40 PM
If space allows, consider a couple of inches of insulation between the ceiling of the oven and the floor of the vent.  The flue should be fine in size.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 12, 2013, 10:03:16 AM
Ok jeep you are welcome  ;D not much to see yet though but hopefully soon..

Yes Tom i thoght about it and i did read all that i could find about the vent and jeffs thoughts.

As i now understand a neapolitan vent makes more sense in an oven like craigs where  the oven is all mass.
SO if i insulate the vent it would actually be better just to let the gas go staright up like most peolpes ovens instead of taking a
unesseasry route over the dome. That would be correct yes?

I will think about it over the weekend beacuse i need to have a strategy of how to solve it in the best way if i do it.
I might also just let the fluepipe go straight up half way up the middle of the dome.

I know it has been discussed before but any more insights would be appreciated and maby explenations of pros and cons if there is any new thoughts..

The biggest and most important question is which alternative is best for coocking neapolitan pizza? Which one will preform better more or less..

Thanks you.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on July 12, 2013, 11:21:30 AM
I think either will perform fine, it is just a matter of preference where the flue is.  A straight flue will obviously provide a better draw than an angled one.  The theory (I guess) behind the ceiling being exposed in the Neapolitan flue is that the heat of the flue gas is "reclaimed" as it exits the oven.  I think any reclamation would be more than offset by losses incurred at the same time <shrug>.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 12, 2013, 05:22:38 PM
Ok, thanks so if i understand you correctly. You do not Think it matter if i put extra insulation between the oven dome and the vent or not? I made it like Picture below and as you can see I can just put some extra insulation in and raise the bricks a couple of inches if needed.


By the way jeep i live Close to gothenburgh :D
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 12, 2013, 05:23:29 PM
Another view.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 12, 2013, 05:27:00 PM
meaurments of my vent over the dome.
The opening is 17,7 inch wide and 8,7 inch high. so appr 121 inch 2.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: shuboyje on July 12, 2013, 08:32:08 PM
I think either will perform fine, it is just a matter of preference where the flue is.  A straight flue will obviously provide a better draw than an angled one.  The theory (I guess) behind the ceiling being exposed in the Neapolitan flue is that the heat of the flue gas is "reclaimed" as it exits the oven.  I think any reclamation would be more than offset by losses incurred at the same time <shrug>.

It's actually the opposite.  The Neapolitans claim the dome heats the vent, increasing the temperature of the gases and thus increasing draw.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Jeep Pizza on July 12, 2013, 09:29:22 PM
By the way jeep i live Close to gothenburgh :D

Fagilia I am making regular trips to Lulea by way of Stockholm. I may be able to fly over early and make a day trip to Gothenburg.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on July 13, 2013, 12:19:32 AM
Either way, I think they are wrong.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 13, 2013, 04:13:28 AM
Ok but if there is a difference. I guess the difference is not great enough to ruin my neapolitan pizza making? Hope so in any case. ;D
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: shuboyje on July 13, 2013, 10:20:40 AM
Either way, I think they are wrong.

And you and I are in 100% agreement.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on July 13, 2013, 12:01:47 PM
Faglia, you have a work of art, and it will be able to produce Most Excellent Neapolitan pizzas.  Are you working on your dough formulations?
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 13, 2013, 02:58:58 PM
So you jeff agrees with tom that insulating the space between the dome and the vent is a good idea?
Thanks in any case both of you.

That wold be cool jeep and you are welcome offcourse..
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on July 13, 2013, 03:10:22 PM
I think we are in agreement that the configuration of traditional Neapolitan oven venting as well as insulation detailing,  is not the most efficient method of construction.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: shuboyje on July 13, 2013, 04:11:22 PM
Exactly as Tom said.  The oven will work great no matter how you configure the vent at this point, but if you got crazy and crunched some numbers the traditional vent would be the least efficient, followed by the traditional vent with insulation between it and the dome.  The most efficient would be a straight up vent with a fully insulated dome, but again we are talking laboratory level stuff here.  In practice they will all work great for you.  My only caveat is I would put a damper in the flue if you plan to do a traditional vent, otherwise you will be convection cooling the dome once the fire is out as I have laid out in other threads.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: sub on July 13, 2013, 07:37:06 PM
Hi fagilia,

Congratulations, your oven is a piece of art, one of the best home-made I've seen !

There  is not much insulation in the ferrara / acunto ovens

Acunto Gianni (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wth7wVu99o8#)


Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 15, 2013, 07:00:08 AM
As you guys can see the angle turn between the dome and the ventpipe is pretty Sharp in my oven as well as with the Sf ovens. I have been thinking about evening out the transition between the two and try to curve it a bit. Would this be agood idea or is the idea just to overdo things?

When the guys was filming inside the acunto oven it actually looked like this was more smooth than in the sf oven.

ABout dough formula. I have only been baking dough in my own oven and  it is not good enough. The pizzas comes out chewey. But i have a pretty good idea of how to mix the dough softly with my Swedish Ankarsrum mixer. Old Electrolux dlx.
A few times i tried baking them in a pizzeria where the temp got up to 400 celcius and every time the result was ok but not good enough:)
I know i have al lot of work to do but i look forward to it just lika a challange.

Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 15, 2013, 07:03:15 AM
What i had in mind was a Little more like this.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: pizzaneer on July 15, 2013, 08:40:28 AM
Putting an arc in your vent will have an effect you would need lab equipment to measure.  As others have said, it will work fine for you either way.  Every oven is different - as a cook, your task is to get to know it, and how to use it best. 
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 15, 2013, 09:16:29 AM
I don't think the angle matters. The cross-section of the vent is much larger than that of the flue and the gas is hot, so I think the vent area is going to be low pressure (relative to the flue) and higher pressure at the top inside the vent area. As such the flue is going to be sucking gas off the top of the vent and the angle at the bottom is likely insignificant.

I think your second arrow describes the gas flow more accurately even with the sharp transition.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 15, 2013, 03:18:26 PM
Cool thanks all of you guys. This site is really truely amazing. I really hope i can give something back to other beginners one day.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 17, 2013, 05:28:40 AM
Even though iam not a fan of steel inside the oven i plan to cover the vent over the oven in thin corten steel and then just insulate over it.
Firebricks are not wide enough to go over the whole vent and i cant find bricks that looks like in SF oven pics.
I will Place the steel over the vent with hooks. I will not use screws or anything so it can move a Little if it has to.
Any objections about this method just pleace tell me, I can change.

I was first thinking of armouring a form and then just use the mortar to kind of cast the roof over the vent but i decided it was out of my League:)
I dont have the competence.

But as said if anybody Think its a bad idea just tell me.

Also i ordered a real chimney pipe unisolated with a damper attached to it just above the top of the finished oven. I guess i need good stuff here if i sometime want to put inside a house.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 17, 2013, 05:29:21 AM
also using steel over the vent will save weight.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 17, 2013, 02:05:39 PM
Ok off to insulation since i cant finish the last part of the cimney until one week from now.
I will leave that part open and finish as much as i can of the other parts first.

So i plan to first put insulation blanket (rock wool) around and over the dome. I will also put it over the vent.
Then i will cover the rest in vermicrete with high ratio and finish it all with stucco.
 
Would this be a good plan?
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: sub on July 17, 2013, 05:30:38 PM
Hi Faglia,

on the mobile oven from the Ferrara catalog:

Quote
Isolamento con doppio strato di alluminio e fibroceramica ad alta densità • spessore 25 mm.

Insulated with a double layer of aluminum and high-density ceramic fiber • 25 mm thick.


Neapolitan builder GRIMALDI GIUSEPPE (http://www.fornigrimaldi.com/fasi-di-lavorazioni/forno-mobile/?lang=en#!prettyPhoto) put also ceramic fiber to insulate the oven.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 18, 2013, 06:31:55 AM
ahh all new info to be considered :)
It suerly looks like Grimaldi has done it the way both tom and Jeff thought was the best if you want the chimeny above the oven. He has insulated over the dome under the vent area?
Thanks for the Pictures by the way.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 18, 2013, 08:12:32 AM
Ok after some thought i have decided to insulate the vent area. It will take some work but i will follow your guys advice with the next best approach after a straight up vent.
Ill put 1 inch rockwool i bottom and 1 inch vermicrete on it.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: sub on July 18, 2013, 08:16:30 AM
it looks like,

and from forni Visciano (http://www.forni-camini.it/forni.php#prettyPhoto)

Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 23, 2013, 02:26:54 AM
Some pictures

Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 23, 2013, 02:28:02 AM
more
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 23, 2013, 02:31:18 AM
I could not find these hollow red brick neapolitand seem to use for the vent. So I took Leca block and cut them into 2 inch thick brick so they could cover the vent for 590mm. I did put some stucco (mortar) On the downside so inside of vent will look nice.
The bricks could hold up for appr 140 punds of preassure so i guess it will be ok.
The brick were really light to. Almost weighted nothing.

From the start i planned to use steel here but the idea sucked.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 23, 2013, 02:34:56 AM
The first layer of the insulation blanket.
Its called rock wool and is used here in sweden as normal insulation. It can hold heat up to 700 degree celcius without changing.
 I just attached it with some reinforcement bars used for stucco or similar.

By now the oven scares me its so big haha. How will i be able to move it  :D
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 23, 2013, 02:38:08 AM
Well now iam in the wait for the flue pipe. But I will try to finish as much as possible with insulation Before that.

I will lose the garage that iam keeping the oven in in 2 weeks so I am a bit stressed.

So what do you guys Think of this insulation plan:

1: 2 inch insulation under vent. 1 inch blanket and 1 inch vermicrete + stucco.

2: Wrap the whole oven in 2 inch blanket

3: Put wire net outside blanket and add vermicrete appr 10 inch on top and 6 inch around dome and 2 inch blanket on top of vent.

4: 1 inch blanket around the vent cap followed by some vermicrete and stucco. Just so it doeas not get to hot.

4: Put wire net outside vermicrete and finish with 3 layers stucco total 1 inch appr.

Thnaks for comments on this..
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: sub on July 23, 2013, 04:32:47 AM
Hi Faglia,

Your insulation plan look good,

You did not found the rockwool with metal vapor barrier ? maybe try to put aluminum foil on the dome first, and don't compress the rockwool it should be loose to work well (trap the air inside)

Stefano Ferrara looks like poorly insulated from the side:

Quote
A double layer of aluminum and high-density ceramic fiber 25 mm thick between the first wall in firebricks and the final plaster guarantees insulation

refractory bricks 22x11x6cm

outer diameter - ( internal diameter + 2 x brick width ) /2 = insulation thickness
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 23, 2013, 04:35:25 AM
By the way.
I havent have time to give it much thought but Iam kind of negative towards stuff with negative function like my vent. Feels stupid to isolate it and at the same time not let it go straight up  ;D
So in all hurry i decided to just insulate it a Little bit haha. So now it feels more 50/50. 50% of insulation over dome and 50% insulation over the vent. Pretty good deal for me at this stage!!!
Still i will only insulate over the vent with blanket for testrunning of the oven. If it does not work perfect i can easily take away or add insulation over the dome.
We will see what happens. Iam very curious of how it will work.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 23, 2013, 04:42:10 AM
Yes thanks sub.
Also i was thinking now my vent is so big it more feels like a Place for smoke to be stored Before it gets out of the flue pipe.
It does not really feel like a flue pipe bend. Ps. Saying stuff not knowing nothing about draw!!!!
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on July 24, 2013, 07:43:28 AM
It sounds like an awful lot of insulation which is not a bad thing so long as you have the room for it. 
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 24, 2013, 01:05:38 PM
Haha yes the reason for so much on top is just that the vent is so tall. Around 12 inches close to the flue pipe. Thats why the oven will be so big. After measuring insulation will be more like 2 inch blanket and 4 inxh vermicrete...
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 26, 2013, 04:17:32 PM
My pizza oven master builder partner Besmir was kind enough to shoot some video of the oven and upload them on youtube if anybody wants to see:
The inside of oven: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgBIFRPx5WU&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgBIFRPx5WU&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 26, 2013, 04:45:38 PM
Some Pictures from insulation process.
First Rockwool covered with chicken wire and hold in Place by wire and 2 reinforcement bars.
Then vertical reinforcement bars and chicken wire around to hold vermicrete in Place.
Room is left on sides of 1 inch for stucco, and 7 mm for Mosaic.
Reinforcement around floor area galvanized steel plate 1 mm. (dont know if necessary but just in case, i took some leftovers).



Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 26, 2013, 04:51:50 PM
Another video of my vermicrete application on the chicken wire. I had no time to look up how to do it properly so i just did some.
I thought to get the chicken wire in between vermicrete therefore it looks like iam doing the massage  ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcULk022zcU&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcULk022zcU&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on July 26, 2013, 04:53:43 PM
By the way my hands doeas not feel good after treating vermicrete this way with no gloves, but i was in a hurry!!!
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on July 26, 2013, 11:08:16 PM
The vermiculite is not an issue, the cement is.  Wash your hands in vinegar after doing that, or better yet wear gloves.  Not only does it destroy your skin, you can get poisoning from the cement.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 05, 2013, 11:06:44 AM
The oven is taking shape...
Iam using lots of rockwool since its light and cheap.
Waiting for the flue pipe then ill finish the rest.
The oven looks more and more like the acunto and its because i got the vent measurments from craig.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 05, 2013, 11:11:28 AM
I have been firing the oven and the vent works fine.

My biggest concern are my medium duty fire bricks on the floor. I saw this fault to late on the forums.
We will see how it works and what i could do about it if it will be a problem?
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on August 05, 2013, 04:33:43 PM
Most use light duty firebricks, so it shouldn't be an issue.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: shuboyje on August 05, 2013, 04:55:41 PM
He is concerned with their thermal conductivity of 1.7.  I personally would not worry about it until it is an issue.  If it becomes one there will be ways to fix it.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: sub on August 05, 2013, 05:18:56 PM
The oven is taking shape...
The oven looks more and more like the acunto and its because i got the vent measurments from craig.

Indeed, It look likes an Acunto Brother !

Do you plan to let it outside like that without protection from the rain  ?
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on August 05, 2013, 11:25:49 PM
What is a couple percent when you are operating at temps around 900 degrees?  Not a construction problem, just an oven management issue.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 06, 2013, 10:47:14 AM
Ok thanks for calming me down  ;D
If something was wrong at this stage i would probably get get a nervous breakdown haha. Building looked easy from pictures but as a beginner i have struggled alot.. especially with planning and thinking. But also i have learned so much so it has been worth it.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 06, 2013, 10:48:41 AM
And no sub iam covering it when iam not working on it.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 07, 2013, 02:45:21 PM
Progress.
If i could just get my fluepipe but soon soon...
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 07, 2013, 02:52:06 PM
I have a question about curing the oven.
I have run it for 3 days att appr. 300 degree f. Is it enough since the mortar has been there for 3 months already in the dome and should be completely dry by now or is curing also important for setteling the dome of some sort?
Could not find anything about that forno bravo either..
I want to make pizza this weekend :pizza:
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Serpentelli on August 07, 2013, 02:53:31 PM
Building looked easy from pictures but as a beginner i have struggled alot.. especially with planning and thinking. But also i have learned so much so it has been worth it.

Your posts have astounded me from the outset. If you are truly a "beginner" than I am even more impressed. I would love to have a true Neapolitan oven someday. And to be able to say that I built it, and that it performed as well as I could have hoped for would be truly amazing. I wish you the best of luck when you start using the beautiful oven that you have made.

The journey that you have documented here has inspired me immensely!

John K
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 07, 2013, 02:59:49 PM
I have a question about curing the oven.
I have run it for 3 days att appr. 300 degree f. Is it enough since the mortar has been there for 3 months already in the dome and should be completely dry by now or is curing also important for setteling the dome of some sort?
Could not find anything about that forno bravo either..
I want to make pizza this weekend :pizza:

She looks absolutely beautiful.

You can see the Acunto curing instructions at the end of the document found here: http://www.casimages.com/f.php?f=130712084333252018.pdf (http://www.casimages.com/f.php?f=130712084333252018.pdf)
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 08, 2013, 05:16:24 AM
She looks absolutely beautiful.

You can see the Acunto curing instructions at the end of the document found here: http://www.casimages.com/f.php?f=130712084333252018.pdf (http://www.casimages.com/f.php?f=130712084333252018.pdf)

Ok thanks Craig ill follow that and then its game on. I have already been working for free in a pizzeria at nights so i hope that i will be able to produce at least something eatable soon.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 08, 2013, 05:25:57 AM
Your posts have astounded me from the outset. If you are truly a "beginner" than I am even more impressed. I would love to have a true Neapolitan oven someday. And to be able to say that I built it, and that it performed as well as I could have hoped for would be truly amazing. I wish you the best of luck when you start using the beautiful oven that you have made.

The journey that you have documented here has inspired me immensely!

John K

Well i Think iam quite handy and i have good friends helping me when needed. But foremost i have free access to all the Tools i need since my Company is collaborating with many small businesses in my Town. Other than that iam truely a beginner. I have learned everything from welding, shaping steel to mortaring in this Project.
But what you need as a beginner is time. If you let it take time it will be ok.
For example i did follow the forno bravo recomendations on firebrick and i did not take my time to read about the floor here in pizzamaking and ended up with a floor that has a conductivity number of 1,5. You cant find lower numbers in Sweden unfortunately but i did find some bricks in Poland or maby ill just by some biscotti Sorrento and cut them really thin and add a layer on top of my floor. Who knows :)
Only thing i know is that i will find a solution if it causes a problem. To bad i placed the Soldiers on the floor haha. Otherwise i would have ripped it out and replaced it with biscotti.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: wheelman on August 08, 2013, 09:54:39 AM
Just amazing!  are you going to put some kind of roof over the oven? 
can't wait for you to start making pizzas.
bill
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Serpentelli on August 08, 2013, 10:27:20 AM
Well i Think iam quite handy and i have good friends helping me when needed. But foremost i have free access to all the Tools i need since my Company is collaborating with many small businesses in my Town. Other than that iam truely a beginner. I have learned everything from welding, shaping steel to mortaring in this Project.
But what you need as a beginner is time. If you let it take time it will be ok.
For example i did follow the forno bravo recomendations on firebrick and i did not take my time to read about the floor here in pizzamaking and ended up with a floor that has a conductivity number of 1,5. You cant find lower numbers in Sweden unfortunately but i did find some bricks in Poland or maby ill just by some biscotti Sorrento and cut them really thin and add a layer on top of my floor. Who knows :)
Only thing i know is that i will find a solution if it causes a problem. To bad i placed the Soldiers on the floor haha. Otherwise i would have ripped it out and replaced it with biscotti.

Well I DOUBT very much that you will have a problem with conductivity. That oven could probably make great pizza whether the floor was made of solid bricks of frozen dilithium crystal, or semi-molten slabs of copper. Since what you are using may be more readily available to non-commercial (aka "amateur") builders, it will be very helpful to see how your 1.5 W/m-K bricks perform in the setting of a true Neapolitan oven.

Good luck!

John K
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on August 08, 2013, 11:07:50 AM
Forno Bravo calls for medium duty, I recommend the low duty, and the Whitacre Greer brick are good quality.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Serpentelli on August 08, 2013, 11:34:12 AM
Forno Bravo calls for medium duty, I recommend the low duty, and the Whitacre Greer brick are good quality.

Oops, sorry for not crediting Tom with the valuable info in the pic I posted above! I have not yet figured out how to "meta-quote" across the forum...

John K
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 16, 2013, 01:58:45 PM
Finally i did put an temporary ventpipe on the oven to get a better draw.
I got the oven up to 400 degrees C on sides and 400 C degrees on floor appr. The dome was probably 900-1100 degrees F depending on how much flame there was.
I also made a dough from salt 3%, water and flour until it felt good, and pretty wet and a small piece of fresh yeast.
Kept in room temp over night and the balled it and kept it balled appr 6 hours Before bake.
Caputo flour that was expired :)
to make the pizza was much easier than expected. Tried to do what i saw in Naples.
Pizzas where the flames were large did not need to be domed more than 5 sec. And baking time around 1min 20 sec.
If the flame was smaller i needed to dome more. Like you see in the youtube video further down.
The oven was not hot enough and the dough was not good enough but it tasted like say  pretty bad pizza in Naples so it was defenitely ok for the first time.
Here is the first pizza ever from the oven. Leapording was not that good..
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 16, 2013, 02:03:50 PM
Heres a video of the last pizza. temperature was lower in dome but still hot on floor. As expected i Think in my oven i will have to dome the pizzas a bit almost Always. But it was way easier than i thought. I also Think i need bigger flames to get balance more right but we will see what happens further down the road..
Just have to learn how to turn the pizzas more effecteviely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA2JFdhcHoY&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA2JFdhcHoY&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 16, 2013, 02:05:13 PM
This pizza was clocked at appr 1min 40 ec and iam looking forward to get the fast ones since everybody talks about it..
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: scott123 on August 16, 2013, 02:19:16 PM
Fagilia, for your first pizza from this oven, that looks great.

Regarding the temperatures you're seeing- are you absolutely certain that the entire oven is bone dry? How long are you pre-heating for?

From watching the video, I think you could work with a bigger fire and I think you could bake an inch or two closer to the fire.   That should give you the leoparding you're looking for.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 16, 2013, 02:25:25 PM
If you go back and look at the first pies I baked in the Acunto, they were very similar in appearance.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 16, 2013, 02:41:33 PM
No true. The oven is not completely dry. It does not clear easily even though temperature is high but i did read that this will sort itselt. The mortar in the dome has been there for months so i would think its moist from vermiculite mix. But we will see what happens in next firings.
Should i still take it easy with temperature even though iam positive the dome mortar is dry?
I think with oven management i will be fine like tom points out..
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 16, 2013, 02:57:18 PM
No i have made pizzas before offcourse just not in a wfo.
Thanks craig. True very similar indeed..
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 16, 2013, 03:00:51 PM
I actually dont recal how long i preheated it. I was in a hypnotic state by the flames. Truely the flames are interesting...
Later on when i calm down about the hole thing i will have a more sientific approach..
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: scott123 on August 16, 2013, 03:55:18 PM
Should i still take it easy with temperature even though iam positive the dome mortar is dry?

When water is converted into steam it expands 1700 times in volume.  This process can be quite damaging to an oven that's heated to high temps without being properly cured.

You're going to find different opinions on this, but I feel pretty strongly that you can't dry out an oven too slowly, while you can definitely dry it out too quickly.

Maybe I'm being too paranoid, but I'd be worried about water migrating from the vermicrete back into the dome.  Since you've already taken the oven to 1100, it's probably alright, but a few more curing fires wouldn't hurt. You need to cure the oven and let it cool uncovered, though, so the weather has to be accommodating. A tent can work well for curing as long as it's tall enough and you don't crank the oven too high.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 16, 2013, 04:07:34 PM
Ok thanks scott.
Better to do it the safe way.
But what would be signs of an oven that has not been cured enough. What damagaes can be seen?
I know i can find the ansere at Fb forum, just being lazy here... getting spoiled by replies here  8)
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: kiwipete on August 16, 2013, 06:34:23 PM
Good work!

Get a longer handle on that turning peel otherwise you'll end up with the hairs on your arms all scorched off.. :-D


Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: scott123 on August 17, 2013, 01:24:07 AM
But what would be signs of an oven that has not been cured enough. What damagaes can be seen?

Cracks- either on the interior, the exterior, or both.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 17, 2013, 02:21:04 AM
Ok thanks i dont want it to crack offcourse.
Haha there are no hair to burn anymore.. i dont even have a tool to put logs in with.
Is just that i get crazy and stupid wanting to try it out.. i saw the tools from naples and i will build similar.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 22, 2013, 02:54:25 AM
Loking for some problem solving.
I have been firing the oven for pizzabaking several times now.
To make a pizza in 90-110sek no problem. I have the time to turn and dome when bottom is done. By this stage the oven floor is about 740 F and walls higher and dome even higher. Problem is this is to low at least for me to get the neapolitan taste and correct charring.

When cranking the oven up to a floor with 880F and dome 1200 F the bottom burns fast. I have to lift it up after about 15-20sec and the whole pizza is done in 35-40sec. It is all done in such short time since i need massive flames to Cook and compensate for the high conductive floor. This gets med the best results so far but its not optimal handling procedure. I need to put to much Wood on just Before coocking a pie and thats not how it was done in Naples. Their flames were not all that big there. I can do it but its not optimal and i want an optimal oven..

My first solution to try is this board. I will cut it into pieces and lay over the floor to get conductivity down. I would like to know opinions about this method. Is it even Worth a try? The board is normally used in bakeries baking bread. In the text it sais that its for 350 C temperature but there are the same boards for higher temperature.

I would be grateful for some opinions.

Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 22, 2013, 02:57:30 AM
The borad is really togh and hard and feels almost like stone hard ceramics.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Mielec on August 22, 2013, 04:47:02 AM
you also have to bake allot of pizzas before u get to know what u are doing.  i built my oven 1 year ago for my restaurant and it took me about 6 months before i got to know what was really going on.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Mielec on August 22, 2013, 04:49:57 AM
great work by the way
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: wheelman on August 22, 2013, 09:56:14 AM
 ^^^  don't give up on your floor just yet.  there's a lot of room to experiment between 740 and 880.  many other variables will affect this issue also, primarily your dough.  I've worked through the bottom burning issue on 3 different ovens and feel sure that you will figure it out too.  Your oven is beautiful, I wouldn't mess it up with that board. 
best luck!
bill
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 22, 2013, 10:25:52 AM
How long are you pre-heating? I don't understand why you need a big fire? I understand the issue with the overly conductive floor, but once you're off the floor, you're off the floor. How hot are the walls farthest from the fire when the deck is between 800F and 850F? For a 60 second pie, I think you will be forced to bake the last 40-45 seconds in the air, but I think you can get there with the right fire management.

How would you thermally bond the board to the existing floor? If you get an air-gap between the two, you might end up at the other extreme where you don't have enough heat below to balance the heat above.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 23, 2013, 03:18:19 AM
Ok thanks guys. No I will defenitely not give up ever...
Just that it feels the floor really should be not a Little bit less conductive but a lot and i mean a lot  :D
About the big flames. I have been trying not to keep a lower temperature on the floor and then just Before baking i get a big fire going so I can get the heat from the flames to Cook the pizza to be ready at the same time as the bottom. Since the floor temp wont rise that fast. Pretty good results but far from perfect so far..
 But I will just try to Cook 2 pizzas at the same time one on the board and one on the floor. I will figure out a way to get the board to stay Close to myfloor.
By the way I made wild yeast out of figs the other week will be cool to try it out some kind of levain variation..
To be continued!!
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 23, 2013, 03:20:26 AM
Yes and the oven is fired every single day..
It gets down to appr 300C during the night.
This is my pizza vacation.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on August 23, 2013, 08:02:54 AM
Did you use high or medium duty firebrick?  Low duty should not be a problem conductivity-wise.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 23, 2013, 03:21:08 PM
Yes problem in sweden is that they do not sell low medium duty briks. Only cunductivity levels from lambda 1.5 and up. This was also a field i did not do research of before the build. There is only one manufacturer.
Well i have a piece of a board and i will now make a comperative study as soon as i can. Hopefully with good results.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: shuboyje on August 23, 2013, 06:28:53 PM
I don't think your board is going to handle oven temperatures.  From reading it is a cal sil product, and they do make other cal sol products with higher temperature ratings and lower compressive strength.  It mentions a binder on their site, and I would assume the binder used to make this stronger also has a lower temperature ceiling.  If that isn't an issue the conductivity is good and cal sil is considered food safe and is even approved as a food additive here in the US. 
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 24, 2013, 02:44:34 AM
Yes i did find another one with heavy weight and really tough surface that could hold heat of 1000 degree C. Thats the one i will try.
Haha yes the salesman was so exited about his board he told me i could eat the board if i wanted to since many people take those minerals anyway  ;D
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 24, 2013, 04:08:43 AM
This would be the board i have to try out. Its a Little bit less hard but hard enough for sure.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 24, 2013, 04:09:12 AM
I have the duratec 750
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: shuboyje on August 24, 2013, 10:05:38 AM
I was just about to ask if you got the 750 or 1000 when I saw this.  The numbers look great, very curious to see how it performs.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 24, 2013, 10:31:41 AM
How thick is it? How will you prevent an air gap between the Duratec and the firebrick floor? I believe you want something with a thermal conductivity at least as high as the floor between them.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 24, 2013, 12:40:20 PM
I was thinking of using a 8mm board.my floor is really level so i was just plan to use a really thin layer of firebrik dust. If it does not work i could just vacum clean it. Not same as the bricks but probably more than the board? Isnt higher to medium to low ok?
Any suggestions.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 24, 2013, 12:48:14 PM
I was thinking of using a 8mm board.my floor is really level so i was just plan to use a really thin layer of firebrik dust. If it does not work i could just vacum clean it. Not same as the bricks but probably more than the board? Isnt higher to medium to low ok?
Any suggestions.

I think as long as the middle layer is more conductive than the top, you will be good.

I would try for as much solid-to-solid contact as possible and only use the dust to fill in the low spots. My guess is that fire brick dust is hardly conductive at all - especially if it's not fine as talcum powder.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 24, 2013, 12:49:52 PM
I wonder if you should wet the brick dust (with water mist maybe) before setting the Duratec? To get it as densely packed as possible.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 24, 2013, 01:31:03 PM
Yes that was my plan all togeather.
I did read stucco has conductivity of appr. 1. If i wet the firebrikdust or fireclay i belive i will get similar. And yes only to fill air gaps.
But ill try out with trial error.
Thanks
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 26, 2013, 07:17:50 AM
What about iron powder? That would act as a better contact between the bord and the bricks. It would defenitely have a higher conductivity would it not?
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 26, 2013, 08:18:02 AM
What about iron powder? That would act as a better contact between the bord and the bricks. It would defenitely have a higher conductivity would it not?

You don't think it would rust away pretty quickly?
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 26, 2013, 10:01:30 AM
Hmm good thinking. I will try the fireclay first see if it works out.

Here is my fig wild yeast. Made of figs that become alcolhol then I feed i two times appr. 60%water. The result is really sweet smelling wild yeast not like my sourdoughs.
The wild yeast is more like a dough when i add to the final dough therefore i have to use larger %. I can use that wildyeast dough for almost a week and a half.
100% flour caputo
61% water
2,8% salt
appr. 5-6 % wild yeast
8 hour bulk
16 hour balls
due to too much yeast i hade to cool down which made result more chewie at least what i thought...
Taste is like i said less sourdough character than with my normal sourdoghs. I get sour stomache of too much sour taste. My girlfriend can only eat wild yeast bread so this is a good compromise for me. Extremely good tast smell and flavor according to myself compared to fresh yeast.

Result in oven was only ok but it looks more and more like my caputo bag standing next to my computer :)
Here is a test sample with only tomatoes.

Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 26, 2013, 10:08:45 AM
comperative study of my board and my normal floor.
Half slice was on board and half on my normal floor.
60sex no lift or turn. Floor 806 F. Dome 980 F. Walls 900F.

Easy to see i have a problem. But one can also see the bord performs ok even though i dont Think the board was fully saturated.

Next test will be the same but with 10 small pizzas in a row to see if it can handle that without becoming to Cold....
I am nervous  ;)
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 26, 2013, 11:02:18 AM
That picture says it all.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Serpentelli on August 26, 2013, 11:09:48 AM
That picture should be on the cover of

"Firebrick Thermal Conductivity for Dummies"

As Craig said, you don't need to have any understanding of thermal conductivity to know which half of the pie you don't want!

Just as a refresher, can you tell us the conductivity of your floor material, compared to Craig's in the Acunto?

John K
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 26, 2013, 11:17:35 AM
I think his firebrick is about 1.5 and the Duratec on the other side of the pie is around 0.5. We don't know for sure, but I think biscotto floor like mine are around 0.4.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Serpentelli on August 26, 2013, 11:21:06 AM
Craig,

My oven being what it is (generic-ish) has no details on the thermal conductivity of the material.

Any guesses as to what refractory concrete would have as a value? Since the material may vary from one manufacturer to the other it may be impossible to answer?

Thanks.

John K
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 26, 2013, 11:28:36 AM
I don't know, but I'd guess it's not too far off 0.5.

Is your floor cast?
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Serpentelli on August 26, 2013, 11:38:04 AM
My floor is made of the same material as the dome.

I think its called Alutec.

The only thing I can find on that is a building material so I don't know if its the same product or not.

John K
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on August 26, 2013, 11:47:06 AM
Haha yeah true hope people building low fome oven reads this thread. It would not have been too fun to show the picture without a solution as the board. By now iam pretty confident i will find a solution that fits me so i can bake more than one pie at the time. I can bake pies one at the time now with ok results and i will be skilled with the turn peel for sure.....
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: shuboyje on August 26, 2013, 12:20:25 PM
Most dense castables seem to be similar to firebrick in the 1.0-1.5 range.  I'd assume that is on purpose to emulate fire brick in a easier to work with form.  I'm sure there are outliers though just like anything. 
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: kiwipete on September 03, 2013, 08:26:33 PM
My oven floor is hotter than I like as well (made from medium density firebricks, which is all I can get).

I'll try a similar solution but will go the low tech way first: I have been doing a lot of tiling around my house, all terra cotta and I have another 70 sq. mtrs to do on the patio. So I might try and put some 14mm thick terra cotta tiles on top of the brick floor and see how that goes.

I've done a bit of googling and it appears that the thermal conductivity of terra cotta is around 0.7 which is not too far away from the Whitacre Greer fire bricks that Jeff has used (they are around 0.65 average as I recall).

and since I have the tiles already its going to be a low cost option.

Cheers

Peter V
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on September 04, 2013, 02:57:25 PM
Ok nice.
Iam just about to do different tests here.  ;D
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on September 08, 2013, 03:35:14 PM
Ok after a lot of testing with diferent approaches i have learned some things at least.
I have to say they are not that perfect but iam leaning towards some conclusions.

1: after doing appr 10 tests in a row with a blanket soaked in water laying over first the calciumboard  for 20 sek and then after 10 tests laying just on a specific spot on the floor. The oven have been fully saturated at least i Think, appr 6 hours heating and floor temps around 1000 degrees Before dropping them down to 840 degrees Before the tests. I got these results:

The board dropped in avarage from 840F to 630F after 20 sek a fully soaked towel with water. After about 2min and 20 sek the board was up to temp again. I did this many times in a row. Iam using only a test sample of the board size of a brick 10m thick.

The floor dropped in avarage from 840F to 680F after 20 sek a fully soaked towel with water. After about 2min and 20 sek the board was up to temp again. I did this many times in a row

Later on in the experiment it took some longer time to get up tp temp but not so much, maby 10-20sek.

Conclusion: The bord dropped more in temp than the floor but got up to temp just as fast even though my unsientific feeling tells me the board was a Little bit slower.
This conclusion is also supported by the fact that pizzas cocked on the board is almost under cocked in bottom. Even though conductivity is at good level the board looses heat to fast possibly.

Learings and future test:
The board does get up to temp Quick enough after a bake. That is my gut feeling. I dont think i have to go overkill with the potential airpockets between the board and the actual floor. But maby it will take extra time to fully saturate the floor in heat up.
Since the board drops to fast or some other reason i cant use it which is good since it was insanely pricy. I need something with higher conductivity appr around 0,6 just like Jeffs.
Offcourse kiwipetes plan is perfect even for me and iam so happy about it. I actually did a test on a normal tile and it was perfect. Bottom was ready just Before the top waiting for some dome.
Iam beginning to Think maby biscotti has higher conductivity than 0,3 but thats just a gut feeling to.
Also it feels like floor does not need to be som thick. Look at biscotti that is quite thin ánd one can clearly see they lay it down on sand and sand has low conductivity and cant really transport heat from potential mass under the sand. Or at least the importance might not be so high.

Well iam changing almost everday here in my opinions hahaha, but i will try with terra cotta and thin cut red bricks to see what happens. If brick dont crack to easy i Think it will be perfect. And if it carcks a Little in some Place i could not care less when eating a good not burnt pizza ;D
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: dave s on September 08, 2013, 04:51:30 PM
Most dense castables seem to be similar to firebrick in the 1.0-1.5 range.  I'd assume that is on purpose to emulate fire brick in a easier to work with form.  I'm sure there are outliers though just like anything.

I use castable refractory and the thermal conductivity of mine is 0.96 [email protected], which is lower than I would have thought. If it were fired higher like a fire brick then I guess with a greater degree of shrinkage and vitrification it would be much the same as firebrick.

For the correct floor temp I use the semolina test. ie cast a little semolina onto the middle of the floor. Perfect temp is three seconds until it turns black. 2 secs = too hot 4secs = not hot enough.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 08, 2013, 05:22:34 PM
For the correct floor temp I use the semolina test. ie cast a little semolina onto the middle of the floor. Perfect temp is three seconds until it turns black. 2 secs = too hot 4secs = not hot enough.

What does that equate to in F or C?
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: dave s on September 08, 2013, 05:36:02 PM
What does that equate to in F or C?

Not sure exactly. I will record the temp next time with the IR gun. I think around 400C.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 08, 2013, 06:54:01 PM
I run mine a little North of 450C on the deck, 510C on the walls farthest from the fire.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on September 09, 2013, 02:48:26 PM
By the way how will terracotta withstand thermal shock from placing a pizza on top of it you?
By now i have tried many variations to see what works and a ceramic baking plate defenitely cracked when i did put a pizza on top of it.
I did read somewhere I Think it was Tom that mentioned that biscotti probably not have built in something to prevent cracks in them and then i thought to myself will the risk of cracks be smaller if the for example teracotta tiles would be smaller than bigger?
Have you tried the terracotta variation yet Pete?
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: kiwipete on September 09, 2013, 04:29:00 PM
thought to myself will the risk of cracks be smaller if the for example teracotta tiles would be smaller than bigger?
Have you tried the terracotta variation yet Pete?

Not yet. I have a bunch of tiles left over from my indoor tiling and they are 310mm x 150mm. I'm doing the patio in in 250mm x 200mm tiles and I thought they'd be better, but they haven't been delivered yet.

Depending on how long it takes for delivery, i might do a trial with the rectangular ones.

If the tiles crack, then at least it was a low cost trial and I'll take them out again..
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: Tscarborough on September 09, 2013, 11:01:25 PM
As I tell clients and architects about using concrete pavers instead of monolithic concrete, "All the cracks are pre-engineered".  The smaller the unit, the less cracking that will take place.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: dave s on September 10, 2013, 06:55:22 AM
Probably trial and error is the best method. The temperature the tiles are fired to and the composition of the clay body are the two most important factors and the seller of the tiles is unlikely to be able to give you this information.

"Fireproof bodies is a popular and indefinite term which simply means those which have a relatively good resistance to thermal shock. It covers two distinct kinds: (a) ordinary ovenware of various kinds ranging from soft-fired porous earthenware to the well known types of ovenproof stoneware, and (b) flameproof cooking ware able,like metals,to stand direct contact with the flame. In this latter class may be placed the soft-fired unglazed cooking pots of West Africa, made from bodies of an extremely coarse and open texture;and in the same class but at the opposite end of the scale, flameproof porcelains fired  between 1400 C and 1500 C. Between these two extremes, it seems rather doubtful whether a satisfactory flameproof ware can be made in the stoneware range, 1200 to 1280 C."
Michael Cardew, Pioneer Pottery
In the case of the African pots they are fired in a range of 600 - 670 C.
It is highly unlikely that you can get commercial clay pavers fired at temperatures as low as this.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on September 11, 2013, 04:20:28 PM
Ok thanks even if i did not get everything you were saying. My english is not good enough. Do you mean that most likely commersial tiles from clay will probably hold up for the heat.

Yes i will go trial anf error. I have loaded up with a lot of things for the weekend. From ceramics to tiles and terracotta......
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: stonecutter on September 29, 2013, 07:19:50 AM
Just read your thread.  Great job on the build and with documenting it!   I use Rock wool (along with loose verm or perlite) for all the ovens I have built too, it works well, easy to find and cheap.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 29, 2013, 09:54:31 AM
Just read your thread.  Great job on the build and with documenting it!   I use Rock wool (along with loose verm or perlite) for all the ovens I have built too, it works well, easy to find and cheap.

What material have you used for the deck in the ovens you built?
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: stonecutter on September 29, 2013, 01:40:29 PM
Most of them, including several historic beehive ovens are low duty fire brick, one was med duty, another was not really 'built' but assembled from a kit that came with floor tile (4 pc). 
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on October 01, 2013, 12:28:16 AM
By trial and eror i have come up with one terracotta that does not crack in the oven. Its hand made version which i have cut in 10mm piece. I have had lods of work lately put i need couple of more tests before i can fill half oven with firebrick 10mm and half terracotta.
Ill use firebrick where i will have the fire going.
Trial and error is only way to go..
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: stonecutter on October 01, 2013, 01:03:00 PM

Trial and error is only way to go..
Definitely.... and especially if you are experimenting with your own mix designs.  Any pictures of your product?
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on October 02, 2013, 10:47:43 AM
Yes i will post all of my experiments as soon as i can. Pictures as well. Just my uninteresting job that gets in the way.
I actually bought an house for my oven the other day. Only place i can tell why i bought the house is at this forum haha. Before i lived in an apartment house but now i have a crappy piece of land with a crappy house on it. Well in one year the house will be nice and the oven will be in it...
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: stonecutter on October 02, 2013, 11:02:46 AM
Looking forward to seeing what you have.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on October 07, 2013, 10:37:37 AM
ok here is the final test and now i know what to use.
Its some kind of hand made terra cotta from spain.

Pizzas are cocked in 900 F floor for appr 50-60 sek each.
dough is 62 % water Caputo flour. The dough i made fast and it was not a priority here.
Pizzas were cocked in 2 min intervals.

I will have have half floor in terra cotta and half with layer of firebricks.
I will have to be somewhat careful when firing the oven but not much. I will arrange a Place Close to door with firebrick so i can supercharge bottom if its not perfectly done for some reason.


Will floor crack: Yes to some extent
Does floor temp drop fast: Just a tiny bit faster than original floor
Will i be happy with the floor: Yes probably. I cant Think of a better floor right now.

Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on October 07, 2013, 10:39:19 AM
upper right pizza is old floor.
This is what setup looked like.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 07, 2013, 11:33:05 AM
upper right pizza is old floor.
This is what setup looked like.

Quite a difference. Looks like it might be a good solution.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on January 09, 2014, 08:39:14 AM
Have not posted in a while due to my job.
But here is how the floor looks now. 8mm terracotta tiles where pizza is put and 8mm extra layer of firebrick where fire is put.
Works really well even though some tiles have cracked but it does not matter at all. In the front one tile is crashed because of me dropping Wood there but i have spare ones to change if nessesary.
The floor gets heated up real Quick so i can only agree with Craig that most of floor heat is coming from the flames.
I guess its time to bake pizza now after 2 years!!!

I will post some videos of the oven in action soon.

Biggest hug to everybody who has helped me out on this venture.... It would defenitely not have been possible without this help that is for sure.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on January 09, 2014, 08:42:39 AM
My biggest mistake was to Place the Soldiers on top of the floor. That makes it impossible to change the floor.
It is totally possible to order a real biscotti floor from Italy just find the manufacturer and order. That was at least what they told me in emails.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on April 29, 2014, 02:28:26 AM
After a question i will post here that the oven entrance is:
Corten steel but you can use whatever steel i guess.
The measurments are 8 or 10mm thickness.
The actual entrence is 160mm Deep. If i were to make a new i would make it 100mm to make it even more easy get into the oven.
I made the curve of the flatsteel 80x8mm with a machine that my firend has. You need to go to a steel mechanical workplace.
I welded these two 80mm togeather to get my 160mm Deep.
Alternative number 2 is to leave drawing at some workplace and get it done. Costful, yes probably.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: ChristianVerschaeren on April 29, 2014, 03:40:46 AM
Cheers!
I have another question, why did you go with 8 mm of  terracotta? Is it because you didn't want to raise the floor too much? Do you feel 8 mm  is enough to act as a heat sink?

thnx,

c
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: fagilia on September 24, 2014, 02:22:12 AM
sorry for the late answere.
I did not want to raise the floor too much.
8mm for me turned out to be perfect. The floor is as good as other real neapolitan ovens i have tried.
I can now easily Control the heat of the floor with the amount of coals.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: ChristianVerschaeren on September 29, 2014, 05:52:29 AM
Thanks. I ended up going with pizza stones out of a gas oven.
Title: Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
Post by: MotoMannequin on March 09, 2016, 02:22:14 PM
Just a look from the oven door.
I will let it rust to get that nice finish.

Hi fagilia,

I'm curious how happy you are now with the "natural" finish on the arch?

Cheers,
Larry