Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => Neapolitan Style => Topic started by: TXCraig1 on August 14, 2012, 01:28:24 PM

Title: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 14, 2012, 01:28:24 PM
100% Caputo (my typical batch is ~1.3kg flour)
62.5% Water at about 40-45F (play with this over time in a range of 60-64%)
3.0% Salt (I would not go lower than 2.5% or more than maybe 3.1%)
1.3% Ischia Culture (fully active) NO FRESH YEAST, IDY, or ADY!!! Trust your culture. The hydration and flour you use in your culture donít matter much at quantities this low.  Iím probably a little stiffer than 100%, but I doubt it is significant.

1) Dissolve the salt in the water.
2) Mix in the culture until itís pretty well dissolved. I use a hand whisk and froth it up some too.
3) Quickly add about 2/3 of the flour and mix (I use a KitchenAid K5SS) until basically homogeneous. I use the dough hook in my hand to get all the flour wet quickly, and then I put it on the mixer.
4) Add the remaining 1/3 of the flour evenly over the next 5 minutes or so allowing each addition to become incorporated before adding the next bit.
5) Mix until generally smooth and homogenous. It wonít get completely smooth and silky yet. It will still have a bit of a rough look when you stop the mixer. Itís going to feel somewhat tacky and rather soft.
6) Dump it onto a counter, give it 20 or so kneads until it is fairly stiff, cover with plastic or a bowl, and let it rest for 7-10 minutes. In the summer, I put it on a plate and let it rest (covered) in the fridge.
7) It will have relaxed noticeably. Stretch and fold it 4 or 5 times. Watch this video if you donít know what I mean by stretch and fold: http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough.  It will get stiff again and get some tears on the surface. Cover and let it rest again for another 7-10 minutes. Remember to try to capture air in the dough as you do your stretch and folds.
8] Give it a few more stretch and folds. If it is now silky smooth, youíre done. If not, give it one more rest and a few more stretch-and-folds, and you should be good to go.
9) Put it in a container and let it ferment in bulk for 24 hours at ~65F. Ideally, you will see virtually no rise after 24 hours. You should maybe start to see some tiny little bubbles forming. This is how I do my bulk ferment: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18509.msg179991.html#msg179991
10) Ball the dough (make them tight without tearing the skin) and let ferment another 20-24 hours. I use lightly oiled individual Rubbermaid tubs. I use 250g balls for a 13Ē pizza. If you want a very large cornice, use 275g.

Dough trays are fine too but a little touchier as the balls will come together and will need to be cut apart and lifted out with a scraper. With the lightly oiled tubs, the dough ball just rolls right out onto your flour pile. Start the ball fermentation at ~65F in the same set-up you use for your bulk. After 12 hours, youíll have to pay attention to what is going on and either keep it at 65F or let it warm as high as 78F or so to get the balls ready when you want them ready.

After doing it a couple times, you get a handle on how changes in temperature affect activity. It can be quite variable. Sometime I need to keep the balls at 65F for almost the entire time. Sometimes the last 10 hours or so may be 78F. Ideally, at least the last couple hours will be at 78F or so. You get a little better oven rise performance when the dough is warmer (though leoparding may be better when the dough is cooler).  More times than not, I end up keeping my dough balls at 65F or so for about 18 hours and then bring them up to 78F for the final 4+ hours. If you want a temperature between 65F and 78F, open the door of the cooler but leave the ice block in there. If you really need to slow things down, stick the balls in the fridge for 15-20 minutes or so. You may have to do this several times. Donít go longer. You really donít want the dough to get too cold especially if it is close to the time you want to bake it.

Your culture, how active it is, temperature and temperature stability will all affect things. So will hydration and salinity if you vary them. You really need to experiment some to dial things in exactly where you want them and to understand what adjustments you need to make as environmental conditions change.

Pictures:
1) Adding the remaining flour Ė the dough kind of tears up and incorporates air as it comes back together.
2) The dough is ready to come out of the mixer.
3) The dough is stiff after the 20 kneads and needs a rest.
4) The dough is now relaxed, but you can see how it is not yet smooth. Capture air in the dough as you stretch and fold.
5) Notice how smooth it is now after a couple rests and stretch and folds. A couple more until it is stiff and itís ready for the bulk ferment.
6) How I like the bulk dough to look just before balling Ė the only signs of activity are tiny little bubbles.
7) This bulk dough has too much activity. Cut back your yeast or temperature. I donít want to feel gas, and I donít want bubbles of gas coming to the surface when I form, the balls.
8] This dough ball is about ready to bake.
9) This is about the most rise I want to see in a dough ball.

EDIT (7/3/15): For a current link for the Bertinet Gourmet video, see http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough.html
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 14, 2012, 01:29:02 PM
The last of the pics:
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: randyjohnsonhve on August 14, 2012, 01:39:32 PM

Howdy Craig...

Great stuff as usual...I am surprised you do not use an autolyse of at least 20 min...Why is this when most bread makers say it is an important part of the process...

RJelli :chef:
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Mangia Pizza on August 14, 2012, 01:45:57 PM
 Craig, thanks for your "secret" of NP dough making! 8)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 14, 2012, 02:06:09 PM
Howdy Craig...

Great stuff as usual...I am surprised you do not use an autolyse of at least 20 min...Why is this when most bread makers say it is an important part of the process...

RJelli :chef:

I always do for bread. I don't see any reason though for pizza. I've tried it many times both ways. For one thing, I don't want my dough warming up to room temperature for an extra 20 minutes before bulk.

CL
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: pizzablogger on August 14, 2012, 03:03:06 PM
NO FRESH YEAST, IDY, or ADY!!! Trust your culture.

+1. You're either going to go sourdough or not has always been my train of thought. A healthy, well maintained starter will provide plenty of spring/lift and do so dependably on a repeated basis.

Quote
7) It will have relaxed noticeably. Stretch and fold it 4 or 5 times. Watch this video if you donít know what I mean by stretch and fold: http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough.html.

French slap and fold. A stretch and fold typically does not have the dough mass leave the table. That being said, this is an excellent way to incorporate air into a dough.

Quote
After doing it a couple times, you get a handle on how changes in temperature affect activity. It can be quite variable.


Tell me about it!  :D

Quote
Pictures:
6) How I like the bulk dough to look just before balling Ė the only signs of activity are tiny little bubbles.
7) This bulk dough has too much activity. Cut back your yeast or temperature. I donít want to feel gas, and I donít want bubbles of gas coming to the surface when I form, the balls.

I think these will be very informative for people Craig. Excellent to have included them.

For many here over the years, myself included when I first switched to Caputo, starter and long ferments a few years ago, not seeing any noticeable lift in the bulk mass can be disconcerting the first time. It's just part of the process and seeing noticeable lift is not a good thing!

Signing off on what is bound to become one of the most viewed posts on the forum.

Great post Craig.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: scott123 on August 14, 2012, 03:21:25 PM
Fantastic post, Craig. 

I know it's heresy, but, for those beginners that aren't quite yet ready to tackle sourdough, would you have a ballpark IDY quantity?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: mishon on August 14, 2012, 04:28:06 PM
This is an excellent education resource.  Thank you for sharing!

Michael.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 14, 2012, 04:58:42 PM
Fantastic post, Craig. 

I know it's heresy, but, for those beginners that aren't quite yet ready to tackle sourdough, would you have a ballpark IDY quantity?

No. I've never tried it. I know others have the number though. Hopefully they will chime in.

CL
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Pete-zza on August 14, 2012, 05:28:42 PM
Craig,

Great writeup.

I assume the percent of your Ischia culture is with respect to the weight of formula flour. If so, I estimate that the Ischia culture is around 2% if measured with respect to the formula water, which is the Neapolitan method. Is that correct?

Based on a 250-gram dough ball for a 13" pizza, I get a thickness factor of 0.066437. I agree with you at the amount of Ischia culture you are using, it will not perturbate the formula flour and water. I did some quick calculations and estimate that the change in total formula water is about 0.25%. So, if someone wants to modify your formulation to make a larger or smaller pizza size or to make any specific number of pizzas, they can use the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html with the baker's percents you provided and the thickness factor value mentioned above. They also have the option of changing the thickness factor if desired if they want a thicker or thinner crust.

Peter
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 14, 2012, 05:35:55 PM
Craig,

Great writeup.

I assume the percent of your Ischia culture is with respect to the weight of formula flour. If so, I estimate that the Ischia culture is around 2% if measured with respect to the formula water, which is the Neapolitan method. Is that correct?


Thanks, Peter. Yes, that is correct. All the measurements above are % of the flour. As a % of water, the yeast is about 2.1%, the flour is 160%, and the salt is 4.8%. I didn't incluse that as very few people reference there formula the Neapolitan way here.

CL
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Pete-zza on August 14, 2012, 05:40:40 PM
Thanks, Peter. Yes, that is correct. All the measurements above are % of the flour. As a % of water, the yeast is about 2.1%, the flour is 160%, and the salt is 4.8%. I didn't include that as very few people reference their formula the Neapolitan way here.

Craig,

Yes, that is what I thought. I just wanted to see if the Ischia culture fell within the roughly 1-5% of the formula water that Marco recommends. He is a tough character but I think he would be proud of you.

Peter
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 14, 2012, 09:33:53 PM
Craig,

Yes, that is what I thought. I just wanted to see if the Ischia culture fell within the roughly 1-5% of the formula water that Marco recommends. He is a tough character but I think he would be proud of you.

Peter

That's high praise. Thank you!

CL
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 22, 2012, 10:00:59 AM
A note on how I ball the dough -

When making my balls, I fold the edges under and up into the middle of the ball, over and over, until they are very tight - any tighter and I'd tear the skin. A little flour on the top of the ball helps. When the ball is tight, I pinch closed at the bottom leaving as little seam as possible.

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Giggliato on August 22, 2012, 07:59:34 PM
What is the reasoning behind getting the doughball tight?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 22, 2012, 09:31:00 PM
If you are using dough trays, so they spread out a little less. For me, so the dough is a little less extensible.

CL
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: vincentoc13 on September 27, 2012, 07:20:31 PM
Hi,

This will be my first time making pizza with the ischia starter for that matter any starter.  OK, I admit it I suck at math that being said I was wondering if you could let me know exactly how much i should use for each ingredient in grams for five 250 gram dough balls?  I will be following the steps in your process but thats the only part thats holding me back.  I have a WFO and will be having family over this Saturday.  I will be making my go to dough (Neapolitan) as well as your recipe hoping it will someday be my go to dough.  if there is anybody out there that has suggestions I would really appreciate it.

Thank You,

Vincent
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: deb415611 on September 27, 2012, 07:32:01 PM
Hi,

This will be my first time making pizza with the ischia starter for that matter any starter.  OK, I admit it I suck at math that being said I was wondering if you could let me know exactly how much i should use for each ingredient in grams for five 250 gram dough balls?  I will be following the steps in your process but thats the only part thats holding me back.  I have a WFO and will be having family over this Saturday.  I will be making my go to dough (Neapolitan) as well as your recipe hoping it will someday be my go to dough.  if there is anybody out there that has suggestions I would really appreciate it.

Thank You,

Vincent

Vincent,

this calculator should help
http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: vincentoc13 on September 27, 2012, 09:23:46 PM
Thank you,

man 1.3 % of starter sure does seem low , but what do I know hehe
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 28, 2012, 12:20:52 AM
Hi,

This will be my first time making pizza with the ischia starter for that matter any starter.  OK, I admit it I suck at math that being said I was wondering if you could let me know exactly how much i should use for each ingredient in grams for five 250 gram dough balls?  I will be following the steps in your process but thats the only part thats holding me back.  I have a WFO and will be having family over this Saturday.  I will be making my go to dough (Neapolitan) as well as your recipe hoping it will someday be my go to dough.  if there is anybody out there that has suggestions I would really appreciate it.

Thank You,

Vincent

Here is the spreadsheet I use to make my dough. You can change the yellow cells.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuvMQbzk5INUdE1mVkMyOEY2My1sc1phRTJBSmo5TVE#gid=0
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Jackitup on October 16, 2012, 03:22:48 AM
Here is the spreadsheet I use to make my dough. You can change the yellow cells.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuvMQbzk5INUdE1mVkMyOEY2My1sc1phRTJBSmo5TVE#gid=0


Craig,

Just seen this post with the spreadsheet calculator. LOVE IT!! Thanks for sharing. We have a few very similar at work I use with ventilator management calculations and never thought of throwing pizza stuff in there. Simple and handy!

jon
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 16, 2012, 11:26:22 PM
I'm happy it's helpful. Keep in mind that if you are using a lot of culture (>5% or so) you might want to adjust your calculation so that the culture figures into the formula hydration number.

CL
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: sub on October 26, 2012, 08:39:36 AM
In a nutshell, I use a 48 hour ferment, 24 hours in bulk at 65F, 12 hours in balls at 65F, and another 12 in balls at 75F (this will vary between 65 and 75F as needed).

Hi Craig,

Can you explain me why you let the dough rest in balls this long, why don't you do: 43h ferment in bulk, forming the balls and 5h to warm and rise.

Thank you for sharing!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: scott r on October 26, 2012, 09:45:30 AM
tenderness :)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 26, 2012, 03:08:28 PM
Yes, tenderness and ease of opening.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Trestrey on November 27, 2012, 12:42:32 PM
Hi Folks,
I have been learning a bunch from the neapolitan threads.  Thanks! So, I have created a great sourdough starter using whole wheat flour and pineapple juice/water.  I fed it once since I made it, and it is raging.  I had exclusively been an IDY user, prior. 

For my first go at it with the starter, I used TXCraig's Neapolitian dough folmula, but instead of dissolving the starter in the water before mixing in with the flour, I just plopped my weighed-out little blob of starter in with the whole mix in the KA.  I missed that detail before I began.  I am doing a 24 hr RT rise at the moment, and am now worried that I won't get the yeast reaction I would want because the starter may not have evenly homogenized while mixing in the KA.  I mixed at 1 on the KA for five minutes.  The bowl was clean when I was done, and the dough was a nice consistency. 

Any thougthts on the consequences of not dissolving my starter?  What is standard/preferred practice for adding your starter to the mix?  Thanks for your time! 

jim
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: dellavecchia on November 27, 2012, 01:20:32 PM
Hi Folks,
I have been learning a bunch from the neapolitan threads.  Thanks! So, I have created a great sourdough starter using whole wheat flour and pineapple juice/water.  I fed it once since I made it, and it is raging.  I had exclusively been an IDY user, prior. 

For my first go at it with the starter, I used TXCraig's Neapolitian dough folmula, but instead of dissolving the starter in the water before mixing in with the flour, I just plopped my weighed-out little blob of starter in with the whole mix in the KA.  I missed that detail before I began.  I am doing a 24 hr RT rise at the moment, and am now worried that I won't get the yeast reaction I would want because the starter may not have evenly homogenized while mixing in the KA.  I mixed at 1 on the KA for five minutes.  The bowl was clean when I was done, and the dough was a nice consistency. 

Any thougthts on the consequences of not dissolving my starter?  What is standard/preferred practice for adding your starter to the mix?  Thanks for your time! 

jim

It will not adversely affect your final product.

John
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Trestrey on November 27, 2012, 03:35:07 PM
Thanks for the reply John.  I appreciate it.  I am in Cambridge, MA, by the way.  I know Natick fairly well. 
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: pizzablogger on November 30, 2012, 03:41:18 PM
Yes, tenderness and ease of opening.

Craig, I have not looked at your most recent workflow recently, but at home I have been using a 24/24 hr regimen for a while. The pizza stand at the market used a 24/14 regimen.

I had a recent and humbling experience.

Have been so used to forming my own dough (it partically opens itself) that I didn't realize I was making a "lazy man's" dough that anyone could form into a skin.

Recently I had the need to try and form skins from refrigerated dough.  Nothing wrong with the dough, but it was a *totally* different experience than what I had grown accustomed to. I struggled to open the dough balls into a 12" ball and after a few tries was really slapped in the face with my lack of skill. Wow.

An eye opener.....I feel a good pizza maker should be able to reasonably open and shape almost any type of doughball (assuming it isn't defective) into the required diameter. Not this donkey! --K
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 01, 2013, 02:07:04 PM
I created a model to predict starter quantity/time/fermentation temperature combinations that could be used to adapt this formula to different situations and timing requirements.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.msg229864.html#msg229864
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: DavePZ on February 10, 2013, 02:42:28 PM
Anyone -
I want to try sourdough, but am a bit confused with some of the terminology...
What is the difference between a Starter and a Culture?
My real question is....I have started a sourdough culture, by buying one of those dormant cultures online....and have fed it for a few days, and it is going well. But when the recipe at the top of this thread says 1.3% (which is equivalent to about a tsp), do I just take one tsp out of my jar of starter?
The reason this sounds weird, is that when I look at recipies for sourdough online, most of them call for 1/2-1 cup of starter.

Want to make sure I am interpreting everything correctly.

Thanks!!!!!
Dave
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: dellavecchia on February 10, 2013, 02:57:24 PM
Hi Dave - they are one in the same, and yes, you use a small amount in this recipe. But the starter must be active when used. You feed it once, maybe twice, and it doubles. Then you use it in the recipe.

The amount of starter is subject to the amount of time you are fermenting the dough. The recipes you see online are probably for short time periods, like a few hours, and require a much larger percentage of starter.

John
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: DavePZ on February 10, 2013, 04:44:05 PM
Thanks John! That makes perfect sense.
I am going to be trying my new "pizza oven adapter" on my weber gas grill this week, and am very hopeful...

Cheers!
Dave
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 10, 2013, 04:54:10 PM
Dave, the amount of starter is, as John noted, a function of temperature and time. This post will give you some guidance on adapting the recipe to your time and temperature windows: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.msg229864.html#msg229864

Keep in mind that this table is designed to give you an idea when the dough will be ready to bake. You may have to experiment a little given your specific culture and recipe - particularly if you go outside of the green zone. Also, "dough ready to bake" doesn't mean "dough tastes the same." Fermentation temperature is one of the variables that can and will influence the flavor of your dough. My experience is that dough fermented in the 60-65F range develops the best flavor.

Craig
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: DavePZ on February 10, 2013, 06:38:40 PM
Fantastic Study Craig!....and it has sparked a question...

Letís say we have made a batch of dough. Separated into two different, equally sized dough balls initially.
Then we throw one in the fridge at 50F, and let the other sit out at 70F.

Now, we know that the bacteria will ferment slower or faster based on the temperature. And letís say for arguments sake, that the dough at 70F will ferment twice as fast as the dough at 50F.

After 10 hours, I take the dough ball out of the fridge, and place in a box that is maintained at 80F.

Letís say for arguments sake, that the bacteria will ferment 1.5 times as fast at 80F than at 70F.

We wait another 10 hours.

SO now, both dough balls have seen equal amounts of "bacteria work time". One was going at say 10 Miles per hour for 20 hours (or 200 miles of bacteria work time), and the second was at 5 miles per hour for 10 hours (50 miles), and then 15 mph for 10 hours.(plus 150), for a total of 200 miles of bacteria work time)

My question is, will there be any difference in the finished dough? The real question here, is does the rate of fermentation affect the final result of the fermentation? If it ultimately gets to the same place in terms of total work that the bacteria does?

Thoughts?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 10, 2013, 08:42:02 PM
Dave, Yes, there will be meaningful differences even if the balls appear identical in terms of signs of fermentation. SD (dourdough) is a symbiotic culture of both yeast and Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB). Both contribute to the work of fermentation Ė there is both yeast and lactic acid fermentation happening. Both produce CO2 which causes the dough to rise, but there is a lot of other stuff going on, and that stuff varies with temperature.

This is horribly oversimplified, but generally speaking, the biochemical processes are different at different temperatures. There are changes in the relationship between the yeast and LAB and their respective metabolisms resulting from differences in the activity level of the respective flora and changes in enzyme activity that affect the sugars present and the competition for those sugars.

Flavor varies with temperature because the acids and other byproducts of fermentation change with temperature. For example, cooler temps favor acetic acid production while warmer temperatures favor lactic acid production. There are dozens of alcohols other than ethanol produced in addition to many aldehydes and other compounds. The ratio of these compounds is also affected by temperature.

I, along with others here, have generally found that the best flavor is typically developed at temperatures around 60-65F.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: DavePZ on February 10, 2013, 09:08:52 PM
Thanks! Wow, this stuff is so fascinating.
I appreciate the explanation. Makes sense.
Dave
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Rick M on February 16, 2013, 11:33:37 AM
Craig,

  Just received my Ischia Culture yesterday, I am still into the 90 degree mode of getting it ready. Tommorow i will bring it down to 70 degrees.    I should be ready in a couple more days.  My normal process of making dough with my work schedule is I start two days in advance.  Can you check my figures please.

Friday night - 8pm  1.5% starter in my kitchen at 68 degrees in bulk for 12 hours till morning.
Saturday morning - 8am divided into balls and into dough trays into the coldest part of my basement which is 60 degrees for 24 hours.
Sunday morning - 8 am place the trays in the warmest part of the house (70 degrees) for 9 hours.  Start cooking around 5pm

Does this sound alright?

Thanks!

Rick M
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 16, 2013, 12:02:39 PM
Craig,

  Just received my Ischia Culture yesterday, I am still into the 90 degree mode of getting it ready. Tommorow i will bring it down to 70 degrees.    I should be ready in a couple more days.  My normal process of making dough with my work schedule is I start two days in advance.  Can you check my figures please.

Friday night - 8pm  1.5% starter in my kitchen at 68 degrees in bulk for 12 hours till morning.
Saturday morning - 8am divided into balls and into dough trays into the coldest part of my basement which is 60 degrees for 24 hours.
Sunday morning - 8 am place the trays in the warmest part of the house (70 degrees) for 9 hours.  Start cooking around 5pm

Does this sound alright?

Thanks!

Rick M

Yes, I think that sounds good. Keep an eye on it during the last 9 hours. You might need to warm it up or cool it down some if things are not progressing as expected.

It can take a new starter a few weeks or months to settle in and get predictable.

CL
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: sdarrow on March 17, 2013, 12:17:32 PM
Hi Craig or others. I am following Craig's directions and did first 24hr in bulk at 65 degrees and balled them last night and kept at 65 degrees. Have not seen any rise so I moved them into oven with light on (about75 degrees). This is my first SD try and not sure it the balls should rise to the same extent as standard dough with yeast. How much rise should I expect?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 17, 2013, 05:05:02 PM
Hi Craig or others. I am following Craig's directions and did first 24hr in bulk at 65 degrees and balled them last night and kept at 65 degrees. Have not seen any rise so I moved them into oven with light on (about75 degrees). This is my first SD try and not sure it the balls should rise to the same extent as standard dough with yeast. How much rise should I expect?

Yes, they should double or so and will look about the same an dough leavened with commercial yeast.

What culture are you using? How do you activate it before use? How did you measure it? What is the size of your batch?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: sdarrow on March 17, 2013, 07:42:24 PM
Hi Craig,

Thank you for the response. I am using sourdo Italian culture. Activated it per their instructions but it is fairly new, only about 3 weeks old. I did make sure it was active before I used it. Per the calculator, only used 1.3% preferment. Used KA bread flour in the culture but Caputo in the dough. I am trying another experiment, took the majority of the dough and added about 8 oz of starter (trying to do 4 hr ferment based on the one chart I saw) and incorporated it into the dough. Will not make a real pie with it but going to cook the dough just to see how it turns out. Will compare against the original and see what happens. That said, not expecting anything due to the lack of activity in the dough. I can only assume the culture was not mature enough/predictable enough.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Serpentelli on March 17, 2013, 08:59:33 PM
Be patient. As long as you're sure the starter was active you're fine!

Post an upshot pic of the bottom of the dough container so that he/we can comment further! :chef:

John K
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: sdarrow on March 17, 2013, 11:01:49 PM
Thanks John,

I will do so on my next attempt as it is already gone. It did develop some air pockets on the bottom. I did cook some dough and it did taste like sour dough, just did not rise. I Will not give up!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Serpentelli on March 17, 2013, 11:37:33 PM
Arrow,

Give your next batch more time and you will be rewarded with a beautiful surprise. My personal "discovery/aha moment" occured about 18-24 hours after making my first batch of camaldoli-based dough. The results of the 8 pies I cooked were "meh". But unbeknownst to me, my wife had unintentionally hidden two stray balls inside (where the temp was about 78 degrees). I Found them the next day.

Needless to say, at some point during those 18-24 hours the yeast (and dough) had "come alive", and formed the types of balls that I had been hoping for.  So now I always plan a little extra time if I'm using starter in my dough. You can always arrest the process by throwing the balls in a cold fridge, if they become "ready" before the guests arrive. 

John K

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: adm on June 06, 2013, 11:52:07 AM
Well....after reading through this all, MANY THANKS for the extremely detailed description.

I am going to attempt to follow your dough workflow (more or less) for Pizza on Saturday, so have just made up a batch of dough for 8 250g dough balls using your exact specification. I don't have the Ischia culture, but I do have my own sourdough culture that works well for bread baking.

Where I deviated was in the dough mixing. I just took delivery of a brand new DLX mixer today and wanted to play with that puppy rather than do the stretch and folds by hand. Bottom line was the dough came out looking and feeling baby bottom smooth so hopefully it will be OK. Might be a recipe for disaster though as I could have overmixed it. Only time will tell.

Anyway. The dough is in bulk at 65C in a temperature controlled freidge that I normally use for beer making. Before this I have used much higher amounts of starter and cold ferment so I am interested to see how this works.

Onwards and Upwards!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: JF_Aidan_Pryde on July 02, 2013, 04:09:56 AM
Hi Craig,
 
Sorry if this has been mentioned before but what is the benefit/tradeoff of doing a bulk ferment followed by a balled ferment vs. balled ferment alone for the same time period?

The closets environment I have for fermentation is 58F in my wine fridge. Any issues you see using it?

Thanks,
-James
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 02, 2013, 07:56:58 AM
Hi Craig,
 
Sorry if this has been mentioned before but what is the benefit/tradeoff of doing a bulk ferment followed by a balled ferment vs. balled ferment alone for the same time period?

The closets environment I have for fermentation is 58F in my wine fridge. Any issues you see using it?


Operationally speaking, bulk dough takes up less room than balled. Restaurants may not have the space to have multiple days dough in balls. Functionally, the longer your dough is in balls, the slacker it is going to be when you open it, AOTBE. There will be textural differences in the baked product that result from the time (if any) in balls and the time in bulk.

58F will work, it may affect the flavor produced by your culture which may be positive, negative, or unnoticeable. You will probably need to increase the culture amount from what I use. Here is a place to start from: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.0.html)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: rrweather on July 03, 2013, 03:04:54 PM
What do people typically use for their waste calculations? I am going to make a batch of dough tomorrow and want to try using the calculator Craig posted a link to. Not sure what I should plan on losing to waste. Thanks,

Randy
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 03, 2013, 03:19:27 PM
I use 1%, but you might want to use 2% if you don't have a lot of experience.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: JF_Aidan_Pryde on July 12, 2013, 06:20:52 AM
Hi Craig,
In the "complete process" thread (which I'm only 1/10th the way through) you mentioned that you got better results by letting the dough balls increase by a greater volume. I think at one point you went for 150% increase in volume. Where did you bottom out on this? I find that every time I get to 100% the structure becomes weak. How does one manage large volume increase while still retaining good structure?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 15, 2013, 12:04:03 PM
Hi Craig,
In the "complete process" thread (which I'm only 1/10th the way through) you mentioned that you got better results by letting the dough balls increase by a greater volume. I think at one point you went for 150% increase in volume. Where did you bottom out on this? I find that every time I get to 100% the structure becomes weak. How does one manage large volume increase while still retaining good structure?

I have the luxury of being able to see the bottom of the balls as I use clear containers, so I go by the bubble structure visible on the bottom not the amount of rise. If I wrote 150%, I probably meant 1.5X the original ball size. I don't remember ever going that small. The smallest I remember is about 1.7X (170%). I'd guess I'm closer to 2X the original ball size now. Perhaps even a little more. I'm 100% convinced that a little too much rise is better than too little.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: swatson on July 16, 2013, 04:45:45 AM
Craig,

When you talk of Rubbermaid tubs I take it these are the hard plastic sealable domestic containers we in Scotland call Tupperware?  If so, when you are storing your balled dough do you seal them completely with lid closed tight, or cover with plastic wrap(cling film)?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Jackitup on July 16, 2013, 07:24:13 AM
i believe he does both and store them bulk, then balled at 65ish degrees and goes by rise and bubble structure on the bottom. put them in a cooler with an icebag and keep temp 65 or so degrees if I remember right

jon
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 16, 2013, 09:21:16 AM
Craig,

When you talk of Rubbermaid tubs I take it these are the hard plastic sealable domestic containers we in Scotland call Tupperware?  If so, when you are storing your balled dough do you seal them completely with lid closed tight, or cover with plastic wrap(cling film)?

Yes, they are lighter/less durable but otherwise similar versions of Tupperware. I usually just set the lid on top. I don't know if pressure buildup inside the tub would hamper rise or not. In any case, the pressure will pop the lead sooner or later. All you really want is something to stop air circulation from drying out the surface of the dough and making a skin. A loose lid works just fine.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: swatson on July 16, 2013, 09:39:52 AM
Hi Craig,

Thanks for the reply, I've just about finished my clay oven and want the best pies to go in it, unfortunately I don't have a culture I use 'dried active yeast' what percentage of this should I use?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 16, 2013, 11:05:17 AM
Hi Craig,

Thanks for the reply, I've just about finished my clay oven and want the best pies to go in it, unfortunately I don't have a culture I use 'dried active yeast' what percentage of this should I use?

That's a good question that I don't know if anyone has ever nailed down for 48 hours.

For my Ischia in the 60-75F range, I would say it is approximately: 1% Ischia = 0.015% IDY, 0.02% ADY, or 0.05% CY
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: sub on July 16, 2013, 11:18:15 AM
Hi swatson,

I use brewer's yeast, 0.5g / liter (0.03%) @ 18į try 3 times less with the dried.

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: swatson on July 16, 2013, 11:37:43 AM
These are tiny quantities, how do yous measure these out?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: sub on July 16, 2013, 11:45:48 AM
With a dealer scale  :P

They're very cheap on ebay




Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 16, 2013, 12:06:11 PM
These are tiny quantities, how do yous measure these out?

Say you want 0.1g of yeast and you scale only measures to 1g resolution, dissolve 1g yeast in 99g water and use 10g of the mixture to get 0.1g ~+/- 0.04g

You can increase the accuracy ot ~+/-0.004g by using a scale that measures to 0.1g resolution or by dissolving 10g yeast in 990g water and use 10g of the mixture.

Be sure to subtract water in the mixture from formula water.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: swatson on July 16, 2013, 03:01:11 PM
So if the recipe called for 400g of water use 390 plus the 10g with yeast?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 16, 2013, 03:15:10 PM
So if the recipe called for 400g of water use 390 plus the 10g with yeast?

Yes. Well 390.1g to be precise.  :-D
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: swatson on July 16, 2013, 03:19:01 PM
Also, why would you not expect to see any rise in the first 24hr ferment?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 16, 2013, 03:54:50 PM
Also, why would you not expect to see any rise in the first 24hr ferment?

It's just a function of yeast/culture quantity and temperature. It's just math - how many doublings does it take to see rise and how fast does it double at a given temperature. I want to see just the earliest signs of rise - tiny little bubbles just starting to form.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: swatson on July 16, 2013, 05:29:11 PM
Craig, thanks for answering all my questions I am only at the start of my journey understanding dough/yeasts/cultures so appreciate you not getting frustrated.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 16, 2013, 06:41:27 PM
Craig, thanks for answering all my questions I am only at the start of my journey understanding dough/yeasts/cultures so appreciate you not getting frustrated.

No problem. I posted this to help.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: swatson on July 18, 2013, 07:56:31 AM
I had £10 left on Amazon vouchers so have ordered the micro scales not bad at £5, and a little flexible dough cutter. That should make things easier when using such small quantities.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: iRobertO on July 19, 2013, 03:37:29 AM
Say you want 0.1g of yeast and you scale only measures to 1g resolution, dissolve 1g yeast in 99g water and use 10g of the mixture to get 0.1g ~+/- 0.04g

You can increase the accuracy ot ~+/-0.004g by using a scale that measures to 0.1g resolution or by dissolving 10g yeast in 990g water and use 10g of the mixture.

Be sure to subtract water in the mixture from formula water.

This is clever..

iRobertO
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Rick M on July 26, 2013, 07:10:20 PM
Craig;

When using the Preferment Calculator, do you use the "% of Total Flour"  or  "% of Total Water"   I noticed in some past posts that you used % of Total Water   but then then i read something that Norma put out and shes using % of Total Water.   ??????????   It's about a third different. 

Rick M
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 26, 2013, 09:24:01 PM
Craig;

When using the Preferment Calculator, do you use the "% of Total Flour"  or  "% of Total Water"   I noticed in some past posts that you used % of Total Water   but then then i read something that Norma put out and shes using % of Total Water.   ??????????   It's about a third different. 

Rick M

Everything you see fom me is % of flour.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Oceans05 on August 02, 2013, 12:12:41 AM
Everything you see fom me is % of flour.

Thank you for clearing that up:

Quick question, I am making my very first dough with the Ischia starter, and when I made my dough with 61% hydration, I placed it in a stainless bowl with a wet towel covering it, in a cooler kept at 65F for 24 hours. When I just took the bowl out of the cooler, there was condensation in the bowl and a slight pool of water :(

Needless to say, I tried to ball it for the first time using the method at 9:50 in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvbYcABI2IA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvbYcABI2IA)

The dough was more sticky than when I made it, it was difficult to retrieve from the stainless bowl since I did not add an oiled layer, and it did not pinch off as easily as in the video. Because the dough had higher hydration from the condensation, it is not perfectly smooth in my oiled tupperware tubs

When you bulk ferment, have you ever had this condensation happen in the bowl? Should I try to bulk ferment without a wet towel covering the bowl and should I add an oil layer for easier retrieval?

Thanks!

Stephan
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 04, 2013, 05:50:11 PM
Thank you for clearing that up:

Quick question, I am making my very first dough with the Ischia starter, and when I made my dough with 61% hydration, I placed it in a stainless bowl with a wet towel covering it, in a cooler kept at 65F for 24 hours. When I just took the bowl out of the cooler, there was condensation in the bowl and a slight pool of water :(

The dough was more sticky than when I made it, it was difficult to retrieve from the stainless bowl since I did not add an oiled layer, and it did not pinch off as easily as in the video. Because the dough had higher hydration from the condensation, it is not perfectly smooth in my oiled tupperware tubs

When you bulk ferment, have you ever had this condensation happen in the bowl? Should I try to bulk ferment without a wet towel covering the bowl and should I add an oil layer for easier retrieval?

Thanks!

Stephan

I cover my bulk and balls with plastic and I don't get any condensation. I would not use oil on the top of the balls. Flour sticks to it an can make your finished pies ugly.

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Oceans05 on August 04, 2013, 10:42:57 PM
I cover my bulk and balls with plastic and I don't get any condensation. I would not use oil on the top of the balls. Flour sticks to it an can make your finished pies ugly.

I will try the covering with plastic method, and wow thanks for the tip about not covering the top of the balls with oil! That explains alot why I always had bunched up flour sticking to it making the top of the crust bitter and ugly! haha!  :o

 :chef:
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: DenaliPete on August 05, 2013, 04:53:28 PM
Craig,

Do you have any interest in making a tutorial video on how you ball your dough and later open it up?  I think you help to pass on a ton of knowledge, and I think visually seeing what you do may help people with using proper technique and mechanics.

Pete
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Pulcinella on August 05, 2013, 05:27:04 PM
Craig I love your pizzas. I have couple questions. have you tried putting your dough balls in a dough tray to leaven? How well will they hold in a dough tray instead of solitary containers.

Have you tried fermenting your dough bulk and balls at room temperature without using ice chest or chilled box?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 05, 2013, 06:37:52 PM
Craig I love your pizzas. I have couple questions. have you tried putting your dough balls in a dough tray to leaven? How well will they hold in a dough tray instead of solitary containers.

Thank you!

No. I don't have any dough trays, but I think it would work fine in them. I'd have to do a 77F ferment as I have no way to manage temp in trays.

Quote
Have you tried fermenting your dough bulk and balls at room temperature without using ice chest or chilled box?

Yes, I've done 24H - something like 1% culture at 75-77F. I don't like it as well.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 05, 2013, 06:40:03 PM
Craig,

Do you have any interest in making a tutorial video on how you ball your dough and later open it up?  I think you help to pass on a ton of knowledge, and I think visually seeing what you do may help people with using proper technique and mechanics.

Pete

I'll think about it. I'm not sure you'd get much from my balling technique, but I think the way I open the skins is a little different from some. It's a very gentle process. It's not showy or requiring much dexterity, so it wouldn't be a very exciting video.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: dhorst on August 05, 2013, 06:48:38 PM
I'll think about it. I'm not sure you'd get much from my balling technique, but I think the way I open the skins is a little different from some. It's a very gentle process. It's not showy or requiring much dexterity, so it wouldn't be a very exciting video.
Craig, I do think it would be of value--maybe not the rounding as much as the opening.  Many folks are very rough or maybe I should say seem to think they need to be aggressive when opening a round.  I think that a start to finish demonstration of your technique would open some eyes.

Yes, I said rounding not balling...remember I do not like terms that suggest violating the dough.   ;)  Is there such a term as sphering it?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: DenaliPete on August 05, 2013, 08:42:19 PM
I'll think about it. I'm not sure you'd get much from my balling technique, but I think the way I open the skins is a little different from some. It's a very gentle process. It's not showy or requiring much dexterity, so it wouldn't be a very exciting video.

Should you decide on doing this, I think it would be an incredible process to watch you at work.  I think many people can absorb from your knowledge.  No need for fireworks, your product speaks for itself.  I for one, would be greatly interested.

Pete
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: scott123 on August 05, 2013, 08:53:18 PM
I'm not sure you'd get much from my balling technique, but I think the way I open the skins is a little different from some.

How many videos of non slappy opening techniques have you come across? There was a video from Chris Bianco on Jimmy Kimmel (San Gennaro), but that's no longer accessible.  A non slappy opening video would be gold, imo.  A good portion of the blackstoners are struggling with the stretch because many come from a NY background (apples and oranges from an opening perspective).  This would help them especially.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Pulcinella on August 06, 2013, 01:57:48 AM
In my opinion a neapolitan dough shouldn't be opened like NY style dough (on your knuckles/fists) --- particularly when the neapolitan dough is high hydration, very soft and you want to bake more than 1 pizza simultaneously. Trust me on this, I learned this the hard way. Ask Marco, Salvo, Don Luigi, or any other professional Neapolitan pizzaioli. They all advise you NOT to open your neapolitan dough on knuckles/fists unless your way of doing it is flawless. you can get away with doing knuckles with NY style pizza because the dough is higher gluten, tougher than Neapolitan dough. Also because NY style pie is not manipulated/rotated on oven floor as much as Neapolitan pizza. Neapolitan pizza baking is very interactive.

When you open your Neapolitan dough on your knuckles/fists, certain areas on the dough disk receive more pressure/force. Those certain areas <<because of the undue stress they received in opening the dough>> are likely to bubble/puff upward when baking the pizza on hot oven floor if the weight of toppings do not hold them down. This makes rotating the pizzas on oven floor difficult/risky. The stressed areas are easy to tear on oven floor when rotating the pizzas with turning peels. Next time you bake a marinara pizza (opened on your knuckles/feasts) see how many bubbles/puffy areas may appear on surface of your pizza. If the dough is opened/stretched correctly, no bubble is expected to appear on correctly topped pizza. Launching a pizza correctly in the oven floor <<without too much shaking the pizza peel back and forth>> is the other side of the coin. It be good if Omid chime in here, he was the one who warned me against opening dough balls on knuckles/fists and shaky launching pizzas.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: breffni on August 06, 2013, 11:34:46 AM
Craig - I'd also love to see a video of the way you open your dough. Was about to ask you yesterday to expand upon your post linked below that showed the stages of your opening...
I have had excellent recent results using your dough making method (best for me has been 60% hydration, 3% salt, 1.7% Ischia starter, 24-36 hr bulk at 65F, 24 hr balled at 65F, then 2-3 hours 75-80F), the texture is just tremendous and gets rave reviews.
Opens so nice, but I'm still struggling with the cornice, no where near the size of yours  - then also noticed in these pictures that you do most of the opening in a pile of flour? I'd been doing on a more lightly floured marble surface, so maybe keep more control in more flour?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20479.msg207742.html#msg207742 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20479.msg207742.html#msg207742)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 06, 2013, 12:02:54 PM
then also noticed in these pictures that you do most of the opening in a pile of flour?

That's mainly because it opens so easily - a couple quick presses and it's almost completely open. I generally dump the ball into the pile of flour, flip it once and press it open, flip it again and press it open, then it's out of the flour. I pick it up, blow off excess flour, and then finish the opening on a lightly flowered surface. Sometimes on cooler days or if the dough is very cool, I do all the opening on just a lightly floured surface.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: breffni on August 06, 2013, 12:20:48 PM
Makes sense, thanks.
We've been dumping the ball into a bowl of flour, flipping to coat both sides, then moving to lightly floured table to open (following the form cornice/flip 90 degrees and stretch/flip 90 degrees and final stretch method...with additional stretching over back of hand as I cannot yet master the way Omid and other pros have done in their videos where they quickly fold over their hand to the right then stretch and throw it back to the left while rotating...surely has a name, but guess I'll call it The Impossible for newbies like me).

One more question - we load onto the GI perforated, lightly dusting it with flour but surely also picking up excess floor from the table. Is there a 'shake' method, or other recommended step to take to eliminate taking too much flour into the oven causing burning?

as always, thanks
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 06, 2013, 12:40:43 PM
One more question - we load onto the GI perforated, lightly dusting it with flour but surely also picking up excess floor from the table. Is there a 'shake' method, or other recommended step to take to eliminate taking too much flour into the oven causing burning?

I do the same thing - I lightly dust the GI perf peel then give the handle a whack with my hand to shake off any excess. I then shoot it under the pie. I don't think it's going to pick up any excess off the table - just whatever is already stuck to the bottom of the pie. I would not recommend shaking the peel after it is loaded unless maybe if you think something might be sticking and you need to fix it before launching. Shaking the peel is going to cause your pie to contract. It will also encourage it to come back into round which I don't want. I want my pie a bid oblong with the wide axis perpendicular to the direction of launch. This way when the pie stretches as the peel is pulled out from under it, it stretches into a round shape to an oblong shape in the direction of the pull. My pie is usually hanging over the side edges a little which also I also suspect is not good for shaking.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Federalist226 on August 15, 2013, 11:31:02 AM
Just want to tel TXCraig1 thanks for putting this tutorial together! This past weekend I used these steps to turn out my best NP pizza to date. I cook on a Big Green Egg, which is no substitute for a real WFO, but I think I've rigged it to get as close to WFO conditions as possible. Obviously I have a long way to go, but thanks for all the help! (Hopefully the pictures I'm trying to post show up...)

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 15, 2013, 03:41:05 PM
Just want to tel TXCraig1 thanks for putting this tutorial together! This past weekend I used these steps to turn out my best NP pizza to date. I cook on a Big Green Egg, which is no substitute for a real WFO, but I think I've rigged it to get as close to WFO conditions as possible. Obviously I have a long way to go, but thanks for all the help! (Hopefully the pictures I'm trying to post show up...)

Very nice! I'm glad it helped.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Oceans05 on August 15, 2013, 04:30:52 PM
Great lookin pizza!

I also vote towards a gentle handling of the dough video. Many of the videos I have seen are from professionals with either an NY style or the neapolitan style with quick stretching with the right hand and flipping over your hand with the left hand and tugging with the left hand.

I think unconsciously murder my pies while opening because I found the easiest way was over the knuckles.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: verve on October 21, 2013, 10:05:28 AM
Hi Craig,


first of, thank you so much for all the info and the help!! truly amazing what you put on here!!

I've been following your recipes closely as well as the fermentation times chart but I seem to be having a problem.

I let my dough ferment for 24 hours at around 72f. Once I make the balls, I usually let them rest for nearly as long at the same temperatures... The result is that the dough balls are tearing compeletely. If i try to play with them and stretch them, they stretch, but also tear, almost like the douhg is falling apart...


Is this because of over fermentation?

Could it also be that I don't knead the dough enogh at the start? Unlike yourself, I didnt do the stretch and folds, simply because some pizzaiolo's i know say not to 'upset' the dough, and to let the fermentation do the talking...

Apart for not doing stretch and folds I follow your recipes and techinque one-for-one but still get a very weak dough falling apart everywhere...


Thanks for your help.


David
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Ronzo on October 21, 2013, 10:39:39 AM
Great pies and great write up Craig.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: bbqchuck on November 15, 2013, 05:24:49 PM
Question for Craig...

Are you buying bulk 25 kg blue bag Pizzaria Caputo (12.75% protein per their data sheet) for your dough? 

I have been using retail 1 kg red bag Chefs Flour (13.5% protein per their data sheet) and I'm not sure I like the results.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 15, 2013, 05:40:15 PM
Question for Craig...

Are you buying bulk 25 kg blue bag Pizzaria Caputo (12.75% protein per their data sheet) for your dough? 

I have been using retail 1 kg red bag Chefs Flour (13.5% protein per their data sheet) and I'm not sure I like the results.

Yes - 25kg blue. If they are not the same, that is a relatively recent change.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: bbqchuck on November 15, 2013, 06:31:46 PM
Yes - 25kg blue. If they are not the same, that is a relatively recent change.

I pulled up that old 08-09 thread where Peter corresponded with Fred at Caputo.  Fred indicated the 1 kg Chef's flour was the same as the Pizzaria 25kg blue bag.  But when you go to their site (now) it shows a good bit of difference in the protein content.

I was just going to buy the little bags, since I have a few other flours in my fridge, including a fair bit of KASL and another hi gluten flour as well as KABF and some Caputo Chef's.  But if it's indeed producing different results due to the gluten difference, I guess I'm going to get bulk.  At least it's cooler and should store ok if I can't get it all in the fridge.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Federalist226 on November 18, 2013, 11:11:18 AM
Question for the pros. I have had iffy results lately. About 50% of the time my dough fails to achieve acceptable oven spring, even though cooking conditions are the same (700+ degrees on floor and 850-950 air temp) and I follow the TXCraig1 procedure. This last batch, cooked yesterday, looked great after the 48 hour rise. There appeared to be plenty of yeast activity looking in from the bottom of the Tupperware and my Ischia starter is very active. The dough felt a little different when I opened it up - perhaps a little softer and less stretchy than when I have a batch that turns out well. I'm wondering what causes these bad batches. Am I overworking the dough? Thanks!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 18, 2013, 09:53:29 PM
Question for the pros. I have had iffy results lately. About 50% of the time my dough fails to achieve acceptable oven spring, even though cooking conditions are the same (700+ degrees on floor and 850-950 air temp) and I follow the TXCraig1 procedure. This last batch, cooked yesterday, looked great after the 48 hour rise. There appeared to be plenty of yeast activity looking in from the bottom of the Tupperware and my Ischia starter is very active. The dough felt a little different when I opened it up - perhaps a little softer and less stretchy than when I have a batch that turns out well. I'm wondering what causes these bad batches. Am I overworking the dough? Thanks!

I don't know what to tell you on that one. I've experimented with a pretty wide range of working the dough without any major failures. I do tend to error in the side of under-working, however I think if you are overworking the dough, you are working it A LOT more than I suggest in this thread.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Federalist226 on November 19, 2013, 10:36:50 AM
I don't know what to tell you on that one. I've experimented with a pretty wide range of working the dough without any major failures. I do tend to error in the side of under-working, however I think if you are overworking the dough, you are working it A LOT more than I suggest in this thread.

Hmmm. Perplexing, because I don't feel that I am working the dough a lot more than suggested in your instructions. But my results have been dramatic: either magnificent or total failure. I guess the right answer is probably just more practice for more consistent results! Thanks again for your help!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: bbqchuck on November 19, 2013, 04:05:22 PM
Fed226,
What yeast are you using?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Federalist226 on November 19, 2013, 05:06:55 PM
Fed226,
What yeast are you using?

Ischia starter that I've been growing for several months. It stays on my counter and I keep it pretty active, feeding it every day or every couple of days. It is frothy when I make my dough.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TOM1L21 on January 11, 2014, 12:30:21 AM
Hi Craig,


first of, thank you so much for all the info and the help!! truly amazing what you put on here!!

I've been following your recipes closely as well as the fermentation times chart but I seem to be having a problem.

I let my dough ferment for 24 hours at around 72f. Once I make the balls, I usually let them rest for nearly as long at the same temperatures... The result is that the dough balls are tearing compeletely. If i try to play with them and stretch them, they stretch, but also tear, almost like the douhg is falling apart...


Is this because of over fermentation?

Could it also be that I don't knead the dough enogh at the start? Unlike yourself, I didnt do the stretch and folds, simply because some pizzaiolo's i know say not to 'upset' the dough, and to let the fermentation do the talking...

Apart for not doing stretch and folds I follow your recipes and techinque one-for-one but still get a very weak dough falling apart everywhere...


Thanks for your help.


David

I had an almost identical experience when trying to use 72 hour old dough fermented at 65F. At 48 hr, there wasn't a ton of activity with my 1.3% home-grown starter so I gave it another 24 hrs. It didn't help either that it was 0F that night. Anyways, when I opened the dough, I did so gently on my knuckles which it then proceeded to tear apart in horizontal layers full of pea size holes (much like a sieve). I made a new batch with 3% starter and will give it 48 hrs before I bake it tomorrow night. I'll report back with results.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Kale dog on January 18, 2014, 11:46:17 PM
what is ischia culture sounds confusing, can i use just yeast?
what are the benefits to fermenting at 65'F etc...  ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 19, 2014, 08:54:42 AM
what is ischia culture sounds confusing, can i use just yeast?
what are the benefits to fermenting at 65'F etc...  ??? ??? ???

Ischia is a SD culture. You can swap in most anyu SD culture with probably only minor tweaks.

Yes, you can use yeast, but you will have to adapt the quantity based on the typed used. Here is where to start: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26831.msg285982.html#msg285982 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26831.msg285982.html#msg285982)

Yeast and bacteria's biological processes change with the temperature. I've found that the best flavors are developed in a 64+/- 2F window.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: mitchjg on January 26, 2014, 04:25:51 PM
Hi Craig:

I have a couple of questions about water and dough temperatures and salt. 

I see that you start with pretty cold water, 40 -45 degrees.  I do not - I use cold water from the filter tap - about 60 degrees but it varies.

Do you think it makes a difference and, if so, what might the difference be?

I generally do a 24 - 48 hour Ischia ferment.  The first X hours are at around 62 and the last 4 hours are at around 72.  My guess is that it did not matter much since the final dough temperature, maybe 78 degrees (last time I checked), does not need to cool down that much to get to 62. 

But, now I wonder.  I have noticed that my more recent doughs have a lot more rise to them.  There are two things that changed.  One is that I started using a wine fridge instead of my basement for the cool temperature fermentation - so a lot more exact control.  Second, for no particular reason, I cut the salt back from 2.8% to 2.6%.

Some of yesterday's doughs, a couple of hours into cooking -so after 6 hours at 72 - were super-gassy.  They looked like they had doubled again, were even more extensible, and maybe did not cook as nicely.  So, I started pondering why this might be - lower salt level giving me a more narrow window?  Too high a finished dough temperature? (do you know yours?), etc. 

I would appreciate any thoughts you had on this.

Thanks,
Mitch
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 28, 2014, 12:47:08 AM
I use the cold water so that the dough comes out right at the proof temp of 65F +/- and does not have to otherwise take several hours to get there which would probably kick-start/accelerate the process.

I wouldn't think that going from 2.8% - 2.6% would make that kind of difference. I've never gone under 2.8% on my NP, but I've gone a lot less with other styles using the same model and all worked as expected. My guess it it has something to do with your temperature or culture activity.

CL
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: PizzaAlaJoey on February 10, 2014, 04:25:36 PM
I don't know what I did differently, but my dough came out incredibly tough and dry. I believe your recipe here called for 61% hydration with 00 flour? Perhaps I put too much sourdough starter in it because i can barely shape them into balls.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 10, 2014, 10:47:21 PM
I don't know what I did differently, but my dough came out incredibly tough and dry. I believe your recipe here called for 61% hydration with 00 flour? Perhaps I put too much sourdough starter in it because i can barely shape them into balls.

My starter is wetter than my dough, so that wouldn't make my dough too dry. In any case, it would take many multiples of the amount I use to swing the needle in any direction. Even at 59%HR, my dough is easy to work. Perhaps you measured something wrong? I know I've done it. I'd always suggest trying something twice before giving up if you know it is supposed to work - see if you get similar results.

Also, all 00 is not the same - far from it. You should not expect similar results with any flour other than Caputo Pizzeria or GM Neapolitan. Those are the only two I've tested with this method that give these results. 5Stagioni Neapolitan does not for sure.  There may be others that do, but I've not tried them.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: PizzaAlaJoey on February 11, 2014, 11:34:35 AM
I think I know what I did wrong. I probably didn't activate my sourdough properly this time. The entire time I've been doing sourdough its been sort of a walk through the dark. I figured the best way is to write down a log of everything. Anyway two doughballs sat outside the fridge in tupperware last night and they're almost a tad cold today and have rise a bit but not much really. It was cold last night but probably 68 degrees in the kitchen. They are soft now and not literally hard as clay anymore. That has to be what happened. Seems like they might work ok at best. I'm going to have to order some Caputo online in a 5 lb bag because I used up my entire little bag of San Felice doing this dough. There aren't many places to buy it here. Let me know if you think that sounds correct about the starter.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 11, 2014, 10:52:23 PM
I think I know what I did wrong. I probably didn't activate my sourdough properly this time. The entire time I've been doing sourdough its been sort of a walk through the dark. I figured the best way is to write down a log of everything. Anyway two doughballs sat outside the fridge in tupperware last night and they're almost a tad cold today and have rise a bit but not much really. It was cold last night but probably 68 degrees in the kitchen. They are soft now and not literally hard as clay anymore. That has to be what happened. Seems like they might work ok at best. I'm going to have to order some Caputo online in a 5 lb bag because I used up my entire little bag of San Felice doing this dough. There aren't many places to buy it here. Let me know if you think that sounds correct about the starter.

I don't know. There are so many variables. Keeping a log is the best way to learn what does what. I kept a log of everything I did for years. I only stopped when my changes became so small that there was really not much difference in what I was writing down.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: flyhigh123 on March 20, 2014, 07:53:48 PM
reading the basics, the fermentation part, you mentioned 65 degrees, so i assume this is done in your cooler? Do people ferment in the refrigerator? how about open air?

also, for yeast, it says :1.3% Ischia Culture

How do I use ADY and what would the % be if i used ADY? Someone said to hydrate it first and let it poof... how much water to add ? 1:1? and would the % be before or after hydration?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: flyhigh123 on March 20, 2014, 08:13:41 PM
Also, i took a look at your spreadsheet from google docs. I don;t know if anyone made changes to it, so i thought i would post it here to confirm if what you have is correct:

   Size      Q   Waste   Dough   
1   275      6   2%            1683   
               
               % of Water
1   Flour      100.00%   1009   g   160.0%
4   Water   62.50%   631   g       100.0%
   Salt           3.00%    30   g   4.8%
   Yeast   1.30%   13.1   g   2.1%
         1683   g   
               
         1649.34      



BTW, what is the Q? I'm assuming that's the quantity of dough balls, so each dough ball is 275g x6 with 2% loss= 1683
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 20, 2014, 09:15:24 PM
Yes, Q is quantity. I thought the formulas were locked down so they couldn't be changed. Is that not the case?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: flyhigh123 on March 21, 2014, 12:42:44 AM
Yes, Q is quantity. I thought the formulas were locked down so they couldn't be changed. Is that not the case?

when i clicked on your link, the yeast said .2% not 1.3%... so i changed it as seen in my post above.

also any thoughts above using ady instead of the sb culture? How do i match the quantity? Is ADY also 1.3%?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 21, 2014, 09:17:42 PM
when i clicked on your link, the yeast said .2% not 1.3%... so i changed it as seen in my post above.

also any thoughts above using ady instead of the sb culture? How do i match the quantity? Is ADY also 1.3%?

The formulas should be locked down not the the yellow cells where you input the parameters. The purpose of the spreadsheet is simply to be a convenient way to calculate formula quantities. It is not designed to tell you what you should be doing. The only numbers in the yellow cells you should trust is the ones you personally enter into them.

This chart will give you a good starting point to ADY given your desired fermentation time and temperature. Instruction are in the first post of the thread.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg285982#msg285982 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg285982#msg285982)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: flyhigh123 on March 31, 2014, 10:46:44 PM
hi craig,

i made a few doughs... close, but not right. my dough didnt really rise during the fermentation period. When i tried to remove the dough from the oiled bowls, they still clung to the bottom. Another note i see is that the dough feels too mushy as i am making the 12 inch dough. Not extensible and would rip easily.

should i try to reduce the water? Also, my ADY is about a year old. Will be buying some new ADY. Any other suggestions?

Do you by any chance have a video of your dough and how it reacts? For example, picking it up and watching the gravity pull the dough, etc.

Thanks
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 31, 2014, 10:55:04 PM
hi craig,

i made a few doughs... close, but not right. my dough didnt really rise during the fermentation period. When i tried to remove the dough from the oiled bowls, they still clung to the bottom. Another note i see is that the dough feels too mushy as i am making the 12 inch dough. Not extensible and would rip easily.

should i try to reduce the water? Also, my ADY is about a year old. Will be buying some new ADY. Any other suggestions?

Do you by any chance have a video of your dough and how it reacts? For example, picking it up and watching the gravity pull the dough, etc.

Thanks

What sort of flour are you using and how old is it? How do you store it?

How much ADY did you use? What temp did you ferment at and for how long?

I let the dough fall out of the bowl, and it takes a few seconds to pull free from the bottom. I don't pull on it. I just turn it over and let it fall into some flour.

I don't have a video, but I can tell you that it is VERY soft yet it is still strong. It takes no effort at all to open yet you can easily pull it thin enough to see through. I have to be careful not to bee too aggressive when opening, or it will get too thin in the center of the pie. I open it up to about 11" and then after I slide the peel under it, I pull it open to the full 13". This way, the last couple inches come from the cornice as opposed to the middle.

Cutting the portion of time in balls down will make it both more elastic and easier to come out of the bowl. I wouldn't suggest less than 8 hours in balls. If you are doing 24, I'd recommend trying 12 hours and then 10 and see what difference it makes and if you like it better.

Try 60% hydration.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: flyhigh123 on April 01, 2014, 04:05:46 AM
I used 00 antimo 2.2lb red bag, .25% yeast, 24 hour at 42f and then 5 hours a room temp 62.5% water.

My ady needs to be fresher. One pie came out decent but needs work. I might make my pie 300g instead of 275.

I used my blackstone, 750f on lower stone and then fire at 75%.


I think I did notice is one of the doughs, I messed it up when pressing it out. So I reballed the dough. Once I did that, the dough tightened up and became too hard to work with. Also it no longer was light and springy, just dense.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: dbarneschi on April 22, 2014, 09:10:00 AM
Regarding a "fully active" starter: Does this mean that I should take my Ischia starter out of the refrigerator, feed it, let it sit on the kitchen counter until it puffs up to its highest level and then use it? Just curious.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: anverc on April 22, 2014, 10:29:25 AM
Regarding a "fully active" starter: Does this mean that I should take my Ischia starter out of the refrigerator, feed it, let it sit on the kitchen counter until it puffs up to its highest level and then use it? Just curious.

fully active means you can double volume in just a few hours after feeding.  sometimes this means one feeding out of the refrigerator, sometimes it takes more.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: dbarneschi on April 22, 2014, 10:37:18 AM
fully active means you can double volume in just a few hours after feeding.  sometimes this means one feeding out of the refrigerator, sometimes it takes more.
Gotcha. Will experiment with this. Thanks!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: dmwierz45 on April 29, 2014, 02:03:57 PM
Guys, I'm "drinking from a fire hose" here, trying to read as much as I can that will allow me to try my first Caputo 00 dough. I see a lot of reference to keeping the dough at 65FÖthat's not a temperature any normal home can reach or maintain easily. If I keep the dough in the refrigerator, it's too cold. Keeping it on the counter is closer to 70 FÖIdeas?

Also, the amount of starter seems REALLY smallÖfor two dough balls (280g each) it's looks like barely a teaspoon full. I have an active starter that I use frequently to bake bread, but can't imagine a teaspoon of the stuff will do much leavening. What am I missing?

Thanks,
Dennis
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: tinroofrusted on April 29, 2014, 02:37:03 PM
Guys, I'm "drinking from a fire hose" here, trying to read as much as I can that will allow me to try my first Caputo 00 dough. I see a lot of reference to keeping the dough at 65FÖthat's not a temperature any normal home can reach or maintain easily. If I keep the dough in the refrigerator, it's too cold. Keeping it on the counter is closer to 70 FÖIdeas?

Also, the amount of starter seems REALLY smallÖfor two dough balls (280g each) it's looks like barely a teaspoon full. I have an active starter that I use frequently to bake bread, but can't imagine a teaspoon of the stuff will do much leavening. What am I missing?

Have a look here:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14356.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14356.0.html)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: anverc on April 29, 2014, 02:46:37 PM
Also, the amount of starter seems REALLY smallÖfor two dough balls (280g each) it's looks like barely a teaspoon full. I have an active starter that I use frequently to bake bread, but can't imagine a teaspoon of the stuff will do much leavening. What am I missing?

that's right.  that tiny amount of starter is a mass of flour, water, and lots of really active yeast.  that yeast will colonize and start consuming your doughball as soon as you start mixing it, and the population explodes exponentially - one yeast will divide to become two, then the next division you've got four, then the next eight, etc.  The longer you wait the faster the population grows and the more mouths there are to feed.  If you're going to allow it to sit at 65F for 48 hours (for instance), that's a pretty good amount of time for eating and multiplying! if you start with too many mouths to begin with, you're going to run out of food really fast.  Think about how fast your starter reacts once you've fed it for the last time (the feeding that gets it super active), it doubles volume in just a couple of hours, right?  The small amount you use, and the exponential growth is also why you don't see a lot of activity after the first 24 hours but as you approach the end it takes off.  Go check out all the work txcraig1 has been doing: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0)  You can use his data and charts (or my app, or the google spreadsheet in that thread) to predict how much starter you need, or how much time you need to get the job done.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: flyhigh123 on April 29, 2014, 03:08:48 PM
Hey Craig,

I just wanted to let you know that your dough recipe has turned out really great! It's pretty much amazing. I need to post some pics, but the chew on the crust is amazing with the crisp bottom....

I have bumped up the dough weight to around 310. I feel that the pizza is a little too thin for my taste. I'm also going to try 330 as well.

One question, how much sauce does the pizza normally take, from a real pizzeria? I think i'm a bit sauce heavy....
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 29, 2014, 10:38:15 PM
Also, the amount of starter seems REALLY smallÖfor two dough balls (280g each) it's looks like barely a teaspoon full. I have an active starter that I use frequently to bake bread, but can't imagine a teaspoon of the stuff will do much leavening. What am I missing?

Time.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 29, 2014, 10:41:26 PM
Hey Craig,

I just wanted to let you know that your dough recipe has turned out really great! It's pretty much amazing. I need to post some pics, but the chew on the crust is amazing with the crisp bottom....

I have bumped up the dough weight to around 310. I feel that the pizza is a little too thin for my taste. I'm also going to try 330 as well.

One question, how much sauce does the pizza normally take, from a real pizzeria? I think i'm a bit sauce heavy....

I'm glad it worked well for you. Thanks for letting me know. I've never measured how much sauce I use. It's not a lot. 1/4 -1/3 cup maybe?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: lifevicarious on May 13, 2014, 05:22:58 PM
Hey Craig,

Made a few pizzas in my life, but a bit removed, and haven't really used Caputo 00 before. Anyway, recently got the BS and now trying to follow your recipe by the letter to make my dough. My problem is that after mixing in a KA, kneading, and four rounds of folding, the dough is still in the "rough" stage. Do I simply keep folding / resting until it gets to the smooth stage?

Thanks in advance!

Christian
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: lifevicarious on May 13, 2014, 05:51:49 PM
Well I guess I answered my own question. I just kept up with periods of folding followed by periods of rest, and after a few rounds, i finally achieved the smooth texture I was looking for. We'll see how they end up in 48 hours.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 13, 2014, 10:48:30 PM
Well I guess I answered my own question. I just kept up with periods of folding followed by periods of rest, and after a few rounds, i finally achieved the smooth texture I was looking for. We'll see how they end up in 48 hours.

Very good. Glad to hear it. I usually employ 2-3 rests and to get beautiful, smooth dough.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: dbarneschi on June 01, 2014, 11:41:08 PM
Hi Craig,

I'm going to be making 24 dough balls for a pizza party this Saturday. I love your dough recipe and was wondering what mods I should make to it to scale it up effectively. For example, I don't think I can use the "slap and fold" technique on a lump of dough that contains 24 dough balls. Do I need to do 3 or 4 separate batches? Also, I should note that I don't have a dough mixer.

Thanks!
Damian
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 02, 2014, 08:28:50 AM
Hi Craig,

I'm going to be making 24 dough balls for a pizza party this Saturday. I love your dough recipe and was wondering what mods I should make to it to scale it up effectively. For example, I don't think I can use the "slap and fold" technique on a lump of dough that contains 24 dough balls. Do I need to do 3 or 4 separate batches? Also, I should note that I don't have a dough mixer.

Thanks!
Damian

I don't see a problem making that much dough at one time if you have a large enough bowl. If you're worried about it, make 2 batches. I do 12 ball batches regularly.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Michael130207 on June 02, 2014, 01:00:50 PM
Hi Craig,

I'm going to be making 24 dough balls for a pizza party this Saturday. I love your dough recipe and was wondering what mods I should make to it to scale it up effectively. For example, I don't think I can use the "slap and fold" technique on a lump of dough that contains 24 dough balls. Do I need to do 3 or 4 separate batches? Also, I should note that I don't have a dough mixer.

Thanks!
Damian

I discovered Ken Forkish's book on the forum and since then my mixer has been gathering dust. This past weekend I hand mixed a 5 kg batch using the stretch and fold technique for the first time. It was surprisingly easy. Using a Cambro 12 qt. container purchased on Amazon, I mixed, folded, and bulk rose the dough.  Making the dough in one batch and using one container was easier, quicker, and more consistent for me than running multiple batches through my 5 quart mixer.

Love that container, lots of good uses for it!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Totti on June 05, 2014, 01:51:19 AM
FWIW, I had a chat to a good friend of Gino Sorbillo's today. I know Craig as come under question on occasion for his mixing of culture into salted brine and not adding flour before hand. This guy said its a well kept secret among Napoletani that they don't generally share, but they will almost always add their mother dough to salted brine, stirring it in and adding flour within a minute.. Even though they let on like you're not supposed to do that, its part of their secret.

He also said most of them use cultures, even if their "recipe" uses Lievito di Birra..

I know Craig doesn't need any qualification to his methods, but its good to have them endorsed by a Naples Pizza Local.

This bloke moved from the Spanish Quarter of Naples and went on to make pizza in Auckland for 10 years before moving to Melbourne.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: kiwipete on June 05, 2014, 02:55:47 AM
This bloke moved from the Spanish Quarter of Naples and went on to make pizza in Auckland for 10 years before moving to Melbourne.

Being an Aucklander myself, are you able to say where he worked in Auckland? Or what his name is?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Totti on June 05, 2014, 03:35:04 AM
Being an Aucklander myself, are you able to say where he worked in Auckland? Or what his name is?

His name is Alessandro, I believe his pizza restaurant was called That's Amore? I could be wrong.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: drogus on July 27, 2014, 04:31:02 PM
I was giving Craig's recipe a try twice lately and it definitely didn't come out as expected. I hope some of the experts here can help me find out what's wrong.

First of all, I use modified small pizza oven (as in G3 Ferrari thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19732.0.html)). It's not WFO, so obviously the results will differ, but it comes quite close.

Second thing is, I'm not sure if my culture is actually Ischia - it took me quite a while to activate it and I'm afraid by the time it got active, it may as well have been completely other culture which just happen to move into the jar.

My 2 tries went as follows:

1. I followed the recipe quite closely, I guess the only difference in handling the dough is that I haven't done "slap and fold", but rather "stretch and fold". 24h in bulk at 65F, then about 14h in balls at 65F and last 10h or so in 78F. I used Caputo Chef's flour (red bag). The difference in proportions was 2 times more sourdough (about 3%), I actually put too much by accident and just left it like that. The dough was ok, but it wasn't very soft and it wasn't super easy to open - I don't have too many other recipes to compare, but among the other things I tried 3 days dough fermenting in a fridge with IDY and most of the time it didn't need too much work to open it.

2. Second try was really similar, but this time I put 1.3% of sourdough and it came out much worse. It was actually a bit similar when opening, but it didn't rise properly in the oven and the crust was really chewy and had a bad structure.

When going through the forum before the first try I somehow missed the method of judging rise level by looking at bubbles on the bottom of the container, so I don't have any photos, but I took a picture of the second try. I must also say that at this point it's really hard for me to tell how much the dough rose, I literally have no idea, especially when the ball expands and looses its' shape. As you may see on the photos,there's almost no activity there, but I still wanted it to give it a go, for the sake of experimenting and you can see the poor result on the last photo.

I'm not sure what's the cause, which is why I would like to confirm my assumptions, but my theory is: my sourdough is not strong enough and the dough haven't risen enough. On the first try I doubled the sourdough amount by accident and it turned out better than the next one which kind of confirms that. I will try one more batch with much more sourdough, probably about 5%, but if anyone has an idea on what could be some other causes of such an effect, it would be great to hear.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: vandev on July 27, 2014, 06:25:10 PM
I was giving Craig's recipe a try twice lately and it definitely didn't come out as expected. I hope some of the experts here can help me find out what's wrong.

First of all, I use modified small pizza oven (as in G3 Ferrari thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19732.0.html)). It's not WFO, so obviously the results will differ, but it comes quite close.

Second thing is, I'm not sure if my culture is actually Ischia - it took me quite a while to activate it and I'm afraid by the time it got active, it may as well have been completely other culture which just happen to move into the jar.

My 2 tries went as follows:

1. I followed the recipe quite closely, I guess the only difference in handling the dough is that I haven't done "slap and fold", but rather "stretch and fold". 24h in bulk at 65F, then about 14h in balls at 65F and last 10h or so in 78F. I used Caputo Chef's flour (red bag). The difference in proportions was 2 times more sourdough (about 3%), I actually put too much by accident and just left it like that. The dough was ok, but it wasn't very soft and it wasn't super easy to open - I don't have too many other recipes to compare, but among the other things I tried 3 days dough fermenting in a fridge with IDY and most of the time it didn't need too much work to open it.

2. Second try was really similar, but this time I put 1.3% of sourdough and it came out much worse. It was actually a bit similar when opening, but it didn't rise properly in the oven and the crust was really chewy and had a bad structure.

When going through the forum before the first try I somehow missed the method of judging rise level by looking at bubbles on the bottom of the container, so I don't have any photos, but I took a picture of the second try. I must also say that at this point it's really hard for me to tell how much the dough rose, I literally have no idea, especially when the ball expands and looses its' shape. As you may see on the photos,there's almost no activity there, but I still wanted it to give it a go, for the sake of experimenting and you can see the poor result on the last photo.

I'm not sure what's the cause, which is why I would like to confirm my assumptions, but my theory is: my sourdough is not strong enough and the dough haven't risen enough. On the first try I doubled the sourdough amount by accident and it turned out better than the next one which kind of confirms that. I will try one more batch with much more sourdough, probably about 5%, but if anyone has an idea on what could be some other causes of such an effect, it would be great to hear.

I use this formula and this weekend bake was spectacular ..  I use Craig's method with a couple tweaks. flour 100%, water 61%, salt 2.8%, starter 3%,  280 gram balls..  makes perfect 12-13 inch pies

I keep my starter in the refrigerator and pull it out Wednesday morning and feed it. I then feed it again when i get home just before 5:00. At 8:00 it has doubled and thats when i make my dough.This would be for a friday night firing.

I add flour ..all of it to mixer bowl.I then add starter to flour. I then add water with salt dissolved already. I mix at lowest speed for 2 minutes. I then rest for 10 minutes. I mix again for 2 minutes and then rest for 10. I dump on marble and stretch and fold 4 to 5 times. I then kneed for a couple minutes. I cover with plastic wrap and let sit for 1 hour. I then give a couple more stretch and folds to feel the dough. If fine i put in container and then into cooler. When i pull out the next night 24 hours later. I also give a couple stretch and folds to get a feel for the dough. I divide by 4 and ball by using a tuck and fold and roll on counter. Thats it. I pull out 2-4 hours before i fire. I only change out the juice bottle every 24 hours. Works very well for me and i am in florida and the temp is 90 and the humidity is high. Even with aircon on it averages 50% humidity in the house. Hope this helps. couldn't have done it without Craig's help... ;D

Thx chris
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: nythincrust11 on July 31, 2014, 11:33:27 PM
100% Caputo (my typical batch is ~1.3kg flour)
62.5% Water at about 40-45F (play with this over time in a range of 60-64%)
3.0% Salt (I would not go lower than 2.5% or more than maybe 3.1%)
1.3% Ischia Culture (fully active) NO FRESH YEAST, IDY, or ADY!!! Trust your culture. The hydration and flour you use in your culture donít matter much at quantities this low.  Iím probably a little stiffer than 100%, but I doubt it is significant.

Im sorry I now I look like a idiot, but Im pretty new to this but what do the percentages mean or convert to? How much of each ingredient do you use per say ounces, cups, etc?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: pacdunes on July 31, 2014, 11:57:42 PM
I was giving Craig's recipe a try twice lately and it definitely didn't come out as expected. I hope some of the experts here can help me find out what's wrong.

First of all, I use modified small pizza oven (as in G3 Ferrari thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19732.0.html)). It's not WFO, so obviously the results will differ, but it comes quite close.

Second thing is, I'm not sure if my culture is actually Ischia - it took me quite a while to activate it and I'm afraid by the time it got active, it may as well have been completely other culture which just happen to move into the jar.

My 2 tries went as follows:

1. I followed the recipe quite closely, I guess the only difference in handling the dough is that I haven't done "slap and fold", but rather "stretch and fold". 24h in bulk at 65F, then about 14h in balls at 65F and last 10h or so in 78F. I used Caputo Chef's flour (red bag). The difference in proportions was 2 times more sourdough (about 3%), I actually put too much by accident and just left it like that. The dough was ok, but it wasn't very soft and it wasn't super easy to open - I don't have too many other recipes to compare, but among the other things I tried 3 days dough fermenting in a fridge with IDY and most of the time it didn't need too much work to open it.

2. Second try was really similar, but this time I put 1.3% of sourdough and it came out much worse. It was actually a bit similar when opening, but it didn't rise properly in the oven and the crust was really chewy and had a bad structure.

When going through the forum before the first try I somehow missed the method of judging rise level by looking at bubbles on the bottom of the container, so I don't have any photos, but I took a picture of the second try. I must also say that at this point it's really hard for me to tell how much the dough rose, I literally have no idea, especially when the ball expands and looses its' shape. As you may see on the photos,there's almost no activity there, but I still wanted it to give it a go, for the sake of experimenting and you can see the poor result on the last photo.

I'm not sure what's the cause, which is why I would like to confirm my assumptions, but my theory is: my sourdough is not strong enough and the dough haven't risen enough. On the first try I doubled the sourdough amount by accident and it turned out better than the next one which kind of confirms that. I will try one more batch with much more sourdough, probably about 5%, but if anyone has an idea on what could be some other causes of such an effect, it would be great to hear.
I think it's your sourdough starter that is the culprit.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 01, 2014, 12:34:27 AM
Im sorry I now I look like a idiot, but Im pretty new to this but what do the percentages mean or convert to? How much of each ingredient do you use per say ounces, cups, etc?

Multiply the % by the flour weight and that is how much to use. For example, say you use 1000g of flour, you would use 62.5% x 1000g = 625g water.

There is no such thing as a true weight to volume conversion. The % work for grams and oz (weight). When making dough, don't ever measure anything in oz (volume), cups, etc. 
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: nythincrust11 on August 01, 2014, 12:35:45 AM
Its making a lot more sense now haha, thanks a lot.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 01, 2014, 12:37:17 AM
I was giving Craig's recipe a try twice lately and it definitely didn't come out as expected. I hope some of the experts here can help me find out what's wrong.

First of all, I use modified small pizza oven (as in G3 Ferrari thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19732.0.html)). It's not WFO, so obviously the results will differ, but it comes quite close.

Second thing is, I'm not sure if my culture is actually Ischia - it took me quite a while to activate it and I'm afraid by the time it got active, it may as well have been completely other culture which just happen to move into the jar.

My 2 tries went as follows:

1. I followed the recipe quite closely, I guess the only difference in handling the dough is that I haven't done "slap and fold", but rather "stretch and fold". 24h in bulk at 65F, then about 14h in balls at 65F and last 10h or so in 78F. I used Caputo Chef's flour (red bag). The difference in proportions was 2 times more sourdough (about 3%), I actually put too much by accident and just left it like that. The dough was ok, but it wasn't very soft and it wasn't super easy to open - I don't have too many other recipes to compare, but among the other things I tried 3 days dough fermenting in a fridge with IDY and most of the time it didn't need too much work to open it.

2. Second try was really similar, but this time I put 1.3% of sourdough and it came out much worse. It was actually a bit similar when opening, but it didn't rise properly in the oven and the crust was really chewy and had a bad structure.

When going through the forum before the first try I somehow missed the method of judging rise level by looking at bubbles on the bottom of the container, so I don't have any photos, but I took a picture of the second try. I must also say that at this point it's really hard for me to tell how much the dough rose, I literally have no idea, especially when the ball expands and looses its' shape. As you may see on the photos,there's almost no activity there, but I still wanted it to give it a go, for the sake of experimenting and you can see the poor result on the last photo.

I'm not sure what's the cause, which is why I would like to confirm my assumptions, but my theory is: my sourdough is not strong enough and the dough haven't risen enough. On the first try I doubled the sourdough amount by accident and it turned out better than the next one which kind of confirms that. I will try one more batch with much more sourdough, probably about 5%, but if anyone has an idea on what could be some other causes of such an effect, it would be great to hear.

Your dough definately looks underfermented. There are all sorts of things that could have caused this. You will need to experiment.

Lately I've been using 1.9% yeast. That's probably a tiny bit high. 1.7% is probably about right for me.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Pizza-Dude on August 01, 2014, 06:20:07 AM
Is it possible to do this with the kitchenaid instead of kneading by hand? I dont want to keep cleaning, washing, etc. my counters :(
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Pete-zza on August 01, 2014, 07:25:19 AM
What Craig says in Reply 138 is especially true of flour and, to a lesser degree, water (in the sense that the variations in flour are typically greater than for water in my experience). What he says is also true of other ingredients, since one might measure out, say, a teaspoon of a particular ingredient, using a level teaspoon, a rounded teaspoon or a scant teaspoon. Each will produce a different result. If I need to convert a given volume of an ingredient to a weight, I will usually weigh a level teaspoon of the ingredient five times and take the average. In the various dough calculating tools on the forum, there are no conversions of flour, water or cake yeast to volume measurements. The rest of the conversions are based on government data, or conversions based on data found on labels, or weighings such as mentioned above. In some cases, as where there are many brands of an ingredient, I have sometimes taken the average of the multiple brands to use as conversion factors in the dough calculating tools.

Peter
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: norma427 on August 01, 2014, 08:14:03 AM
Is it possible to do this with the kitchenaid instead of kneading by hand? I dont want to keep cleaning, washing, etc. my counters :(

Pizza-Dude,

Craig does use a Kitchen Aid to mix his dough. 

Norma
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 01, 2014, 10:11:02 AM
What Craig says in Reply 138 is especially true of flour and, to a lesser degree, water (in the sense that the variations in flour are typically greater than for water in my experience). What he says is also true of other ingredients, since one might measure out, say, a teaspoon of a particular ingredient, using a level teaspoon, a rounded teaspoon or a scant teaspoon. Each will produce a different result. If I need to convert a given volume of an ingredient to a weight, I will usually weigh a level teaspoon of the ingredient five times and take the average. In the various dough calculating tools on the forum, there are no conversions of flour, water or cake yeast to volume measurements. The rest of the conversions are based on government data, or conversions based on data found on labels, or weighings such as mentioned above. In some cases, as where there are many brands of an ingredient, I have sometimes taken the average of the multiple brands to use as conversion factors in the dough calculating tools.

Peter

Everything Peter writes is correct. I made my statement very broad to express my view on the importance of using weight measurements. I'd also note that the more one scales a recipe down, the more important it becomes as small errors represent a larger fraction of the whole.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 01, 2014, 10:16:02 AM
Pizza-Dude,

Craig does use a Kitchen Aid to mix his dough. 

Norma

My KA is an old K5SS. My normal batch is 1.7kg of flour, but that is probably a bit more than the mixer was designed to handle and takes a bit of technique. It doesn't work well with small amounts of dough at all.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Pizza-Dude on August 02, 2014, 05:18:56 PM
Pizza-Dude,

Craig does use a Kitchen Aid to mix his dough. 

Norma

Norma--

I saw that but my understanding is that he then takes the dough out of the mixer and does the smack-and-fold on the counter? I'd prefer to do it "all in the mixer" if possible?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 02, 2014, 05:26:10 PM
I can't get the smoothness I want in the KA. I basically use it to get everything homogeneous.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: vandev on August 02, 2014, 05:43:24 PM
Norma--

I saw that but my understanding is that he then takes the dough out of the mixer and does the smack-and-fold on the counter? I'd prefer to do it "all in the mixer" if possible?

If you really want to start to figure out your dough you will need to get your hands into it. Texture, feel and elasticity are all things you can't tell by looking in a mixer. The Strech and fold..or kneed.....Not smack and fold..... will do 2 important things. One of them is two see how your dough feels. two is to get air worked in for good gluten development.  If you can tear off a small piece and stretch it until it is translucent...you are on the right track...You got to get jiggy with it.. ;)

Chris
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 02, 2014, 05:45:57 PM
I would probably describe what I do as more of a "stretchy knead."

The only time I do a true stretch-and-fold is when I mix the dough completely by hand. It is an indispensable tool in that regard.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: vandev on August 02, 2014, 06:09:34 PM
I would probably describe what I do as more of a "stretchy knead."

The only time I do a true stretch-and-fold is when I mix the dough completely by hand. It is an indispensable tool in that regard.

You are correct.. Thats what i meant ...  a cross between the two... i think my avatar is getting me off track... :-D Smack and fold... :angel:
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: hotdough on August 12, 2014, 01:42:23 PM
I was giving Craig's recipe a try twice lately and it definitely didn't come out as expected. I hope some of the experts here can help me find out what's wrong.

First of all, I use modified small pizza oven (as in G3 Ferrari thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19732.0.html)). It's not WFO, so obviously the results will differ, but it comes quite close.

Second thing is, I'm not sure if my culture is actually Ischia - it took me quite a while to activate it and I'm afraid by the time it got active, it may as well have been completely other culture which just happen to move into the jar.

My 2 tries went as follows:

1. I followed the recipe quite closely, I guess the only difference in handling the dough is that I haven't done "slap and fold", but rather "stretch and fold". 24h in bulk at 65F, then about 14h in balls at 65F and last 10h or so in 78F. I used Caputo Chef's flour (red bag). The difference in proportions was 2 times more sourdough (about 3%), I actually put too much by accident and just left it like that. The dough was ok, but it wasn't very soft and it wasn't super easy to open - I don't have too many other recipes to compare, but among the other things I tried 3 days dough fermenting in a fridge with IDY and most of the time it didn't need too much work to open it.

2. Second try was really similar, but this time I put 1.3% of sourdough and it came out much worse. It was actually a bit similar when opening, but it didn't rise properly in the oven and the crust was really chewy and had a bad structure.

When going through the forum before the first try I somehow missed the method of judging rise level by looking at bubbles on the bottom of the container, so I don't have any photos, but I took a picture of the second try. I must also say that at this point it's really hard for me to tell how much the dough rose, I literally have no idea, especially when the ball expands and looses its' shape. As you may see on the photos,there's almost no activity there, but I still wanted it to give it a go, for the sake of experimenting and you can see the poor result on the last photo.

I'm not sure what's the cause, which is why I would like to confirm my assumptions, but my theory is: my sourdough is not strong enough and the dough haven't risen enough. On the first try I doubled the sourdough amount by accident and it turned out better than the next one which kind of confirms that. I will try one more batch with much more sourdough, probably about 5%, but if anyone has an idea on what could be some other causes of such an effect, it would be great to hear.

Chef's flour is not the same as Caputo pizzeria flour. Mostly grano tenero and less manitoba. Not the flour for long fermentation. Results would be like you experience. Maybe also proteolysis occurred. . .?. Starters are also more acidic and that isn't great for the Chefs for long bulk fermentation. Trying mixing with some bread flour maybe 30%. Its not Neapolitan correct but for a home oven under 700 you could also try a bit of malt syrup maybe some diastatic as well both for browning. I would only use ADY or IDY or CY with the Chefs. Also Hydration should be lower because this flour alone can't handle it without some manitoba, i.e. hard wheat. If I were using Chefs it would be 57% 59% tops otherwise difficult to work. Hope that helps.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 12, 2014, 01:59:34 PM
you could also try a bit of malt syrup maybe some diastatic as well both for browning.

 :-X  I think I will need a barf bag after reading that.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: hotdough on August 12, 2014, 02:02:33 PM
:-X  I think I will need a barf bag after reading that.

I'm a professional baker with 50 years experience. Make sure you use the large size barf bag. ;D
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: scott123 on August 12, 2014, 02:24:56 PM
:-X  I think I will need a barf bag after reading that.

By adding diastatic malt, he's just NYifying the caputo for cooler home ovens. Nothing wrong with that  ;D Bread flour would achieve the same end and be far cheaper, though.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 12, 2014, 02:26:21 PM
I'm a professional baker with 50 years experience. Make sure you use the large size barf bag. ;D

I haven't been walking the planet for 50 years yet, however I have managed to figure out that pizza is not bread.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 12, 2014, 02:26:42 PM
By adding diastatic malt, he's just NYifying the caputo for cooler home ovens. Nothing wrong with that  ;D Bread flour would achieve the same end and be far cheaper, though.

In this thread, it's  :-X
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: scott123 on August 12, 2014, 02:35:34 PM
In this thread, it's  :-X

It's off topic, absolutely, but NY style pizza is vomit inducing?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 12, 2014, 03:44:28 PM
It's off topic, absolutely, but NY style pizza is vomit inducing?

I didn't say that.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: scott123 on August 12, 2014, 03:50:39 PM
Caputo + diastatic malt = NY style flour. Baked in a typical home oven, at typical home oven temps, it's NY style pizza. Why would this merit a barf bag?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 12, 2014, 03:59:49 PM
Caputo + diastatic malt = NY style flour. Baked in a typical home oven, at typical home oven temps, it's NY style pizza. Why would this merit a barf bag?


What it this thread has anything at all to do with NY-style pizza?  ???  How did NY-style even come up in the first place? Because I don't want diastatic malt in my NP dough? I think rice would be nasty in my dough too, but that doesn't mean I don't like sushi.

And, how many of your favorite NY pizzerias use Caputo + diastatic malt??? (In any case, wouldn't be Caputo + diastatic malt + potassium bromate?)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: scott123 on August 12, 2014, 04:32:36 PM
Caputo is predominantly North American wheat. How many NY pizzerias use flour that contains North American wheat + diastatic malt?  All of them. NY style is better with bromate, but, without bromate, it doesn't cease to be NY style pizza.

What it this thread has anything at all to do with NY-style pizza?  ???  How did NY-style even come up in the first place?

Its not Neapolitan

He brought up NY by saying it isn't Neapolitan (and also referencing lower temp home ovens). I then continued to bring up NY by pointing out that he was just making NY style flour.  At which point, you gave me the barf face :)

If someone posted to this thread "Hey guys, I love KABF dough made in my home oven you should try it!" would you say "ew, that's gross" or would you say "that's off topic and not a style of pizza I'm interested in making?" The flour blend he's talking about it just a KABF analog, that's all.

If someone posted to a NY thread something along the lines of "Hey guys, I love caputo doughs baked at 800ish for 90 seconds," and someone else mentioned a barf bag, I'd have equal issue with it.

His suggestion was completely of topic, but saying "hey guys, you should make NY style pizza" in a NP thread shouldn't be greeted by a barf bag.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 12, 2014, 05:00:19 PM
If you come to this thread or the Garage thread and recommend adding malt to dough, you are going to get the barf face. I won't do it in any other thread - promise.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: scott123 on August 12, 2014, 05:21:03 PM
If you come to this thread or the Garage thread and recommend adding malt to dough, you are going to get the barf face.

No one ever said anything about adding malt to NP dough. Had they said that, sure, barf all you want.  He said "not Neapolitan" and clearly implied NY.  I then stated NY.  And you got barfy after I said it was NY. You got barfy about NY.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: drogus on August 12, 2014, 05:22:49 PM
Thanks a lot for the answer!

Chef's flour is not the same as Caputo pizzeria flour. Mostly grano tenero and less manitoba. Not the flour for long fermentation. Results would be like you experience.

I also have the blue one which I was trying lately and indeed the result was better, although it still needed much more sourdough (I used 4%) and it needed way more time to rise than the value in Craig's table for 1.5%. I think that it points at a sourdough problem. I got contact to a traditional bakery here in Berlin which uses sourdough, I'll try to buy some, maybe it has a better characteristics.

Maybe also proteolysis occurred. . .?

I have no idea what's that, but I'll look it up.

Its not Neapolitan correct but for a home oven under 700 you could also try a bit of malt syrup maybe some diastatic as well both for browning.

The stone in my oven easily goes to 840F and baking times are close to 1m20s, so I don't think I need that :)

I would only use ADY or IDY or CY with the Chefs. Also Hydration should be lower because this flour alone can't handle it without some manitoba, i.e. hard wheat. If I were using Chefs it would be 57% 59% tops otherwise difficult to work. Hope that helps.

I will try experimenting, thanks! Is such a hydration ok for a blue Caputo?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 12, 2014, 05:28:54 PM
I will try experimenting, thanks! Is such a hydration ok for a blue Caputo?

For a guy with 50 years in the kitchen, hotdough apparently couldn't handle much heat. Doesn't look like he has any more to add.

I've seen Caputo Pizzeria used with hydration in the low 70%'s. I would suggest starting at 60% and working up slowly until you find what works best for you (probably not more than 64%).
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 12, 2014, 05:53:47 PM
No one ever said anything about adding malt to NP dough. Had they said that, sure, barf all you want.  He said "not Neapolitan" and clearly implied NY.  I then stated NY.  And you got barfy after I said it was NY. You got barfy about NY.

In this thread, pizza is Neapolitan - not "not Neapolitan," not NY-NP, not nearlypolitan, and not NY. There is no discussion of using malt, VWG, oil, sugar, or any other dough perversions.  ;D
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: vandev on August 12, 2014, 06:12:24 PM
In this thread, pizza is Neapolitan - not "not Neapolitan," not NY-NP, not nearlypolitan, and not NY. There is no discussion of using malt, VWG, oil, sugar, or any other dough perversions.  ;D

I like chips with malt vinegar ...I mean Crisp as the english would say... :-D Now i need a beer.... ;D
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: scott123 on August 12, 2014, 07:07:03 PM
In this thread, pizza is Neapolitan - not "not Neapolitan," not NY-NP, not nearlypolitan, and not NY. There is no discussion of using malt, VWG, oil, sugar, or any other dough perversions.  ;D

See, that's all you had to say. I can totally live with malt being referred to as a 'perversion.' ;D Just watch the barf.  I hear ginger is good for that  ;D
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 12, 2014, 07:09:27 PM
See, that's all you had to say. I can totally live with malt being referred to as a 'perversion.' ;D Just watch the barf.  I hear ginger is good for that  ;D

Sooner or later we always seem to find common ground  ;D
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Serpentelli on August 15, 2014, 07:02:15 PM
Perverts
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: trixaddict on August 15, 2014, 08:06:24 PM
Craig, I'm getting ready to activate my dry Ischia culture. I know I'm a little ahead of myself, but when you are making your dough, you add salt to the water before mixing in the culture. I've read that salt can be hard on yeast and others add the salt with the flour to minimize direct contact. Obviously from your results, things are working out for you. Have you experimented with this? By dissolving the salt first, does that reduce the risk?
Thanks,
Tim
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 15, 2014, 09:11:11 PM
Craig, I'm getting ready to activate my dry Ischia culture. I know I'm a little ahead of myself, but when you are making your dough, you add salt to the water before mixing in the culture. I've read that salt can be hard on yeast and others add the salt with the flour to minimize direct contact. Obviously from your results, things are working out for you. Have you experimented with this? By dissolving the salt first, does that reduce the risk?
Thanks,
Tim

Yes, I do. It turns out that the opposite may be true - that salt stress may actually help.  http://91.190.232.206:8080/predmet/inostr/sukhiedrozhi/Salt-stressed%20baker's%20yeast.pdf (http://91.190.232.206:8080/predmet/inostr/sukhiedrozhi/Salt-stressed%20baker's%20yeast.pdf)

"Salt-stressed bakerís yeast clearly affected the steamed
bread making process. A shorter fermentation time,
softer steamed bread and significantly better sensory
properties were obtained. It is concluded salt-stressed
bakerís yeast significantly improved steamed bread
quality"


I don't do anything at all like what this article discusses. I don't leave the saly and culture together for long before adding the yeast - a minute at the most. After I add the culture, I froth the heck out of it with a wire whip too. Yeast really like oxygen.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Pete-zza on August 15, 2014, 09:36:35 PM
Salt stressed yeast is a subject that came up a few years ago on the forum at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13441.msg133181#msg133181 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13441.msg133181#msg133181). That thread also has links to posts on how salt can be introduced into the procedure for making Neapolitan style dough.

Peter
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: trixaddict on August 15, 2014, 09:42:03 PM
Interesting read. You have also mentioned the better digestibility your results have been. I wonder, if even the short duration of salt shock, contributes to the improved texture/firmness of the cornicione and ease of digestion too? I'm so looking forward to finding my own results.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: trixaddict on August 15, 2014, 09:46:39 PM

Salt stressed yeast is a subject that came up a few years ago on the forum at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13441.msg133181#msg133181 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13441.msg133181#msg133181). That thread also has links to posts on how salt can be introduced into the procedure for making Neapolitan style dough.

Peter
Thank you Peter. This forum's depth of knowledge is amazing! I have a lot of catching up to do.

Tim
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: jvp123 on August 16, 2014, 11:12:54 AM

Also, "dough ready to bake" doesn't mean "dough tastes the same." Fermentation temperature is one of the variables that can and will influence the flavor of your dough. My experience is that dough fermented in the 60-65F range develops the best flavor.

Craig

Craig, would you say higher fermentation temps create a more "sour" flavor?  Like 75F vs. 65F?

Also,  what else contributes to how strong or subtle the sour flavor is in a SD pizza?  Would there be a noticeable difference, for example, between 1.5% and 3% preferment - and out of curiosity, what happens at higher levels like 8 or 10%?

I would imagine too subtle and whats the point of using it, but too sour and it tastes a sourdough baguette and, of course, pizza isn't bread.  ;)

Jeff
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 16, 2014, 11:37:14 AM
Craig, would you say higher fermentation temps create a more "sour" flavor?  Like 75F vs. 65F?

Also,  what else contributes to how strong or subtle the sour flavor is in a SD pizza?  Would there be a noticeable difference, for example, between 1.5% and 3% preferment - and out of curiosity, what happens at higher levels like 8 or 10%?

I would imagine too subtle and whats the point of using it, but too sour and it tastes a sourdough baguette and, of course, pizza isn't bread.  ;)

Jeff

No. Longer time does in my experience. I've gone as long as 60 hours (using appropriately less culture) at 64F, and it gets noticeably sour. I've never tasted any sour flavor in my dough fermented in the 70's. I find my dough has a lot less flavor period when fermented in the 70's.

The culture itself may be the biggest factor. Some produce much more sour flavor than others.

Higher levels of culture will ferment faster, AOTBE. Using high levels of culture with longer ferment time can also lead to complete gluten breakdown and a sloppy mess.

The only way I've been able to get any sour flavor faster (and it was much less detectable) is by fermenting up near 100F. Up that high, the bacteria does really well but the yeast does not. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14627.msg145628#msg145628 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14627.msg145628#msg145628)

This article might help you. Read all the comments too: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10375/lactic-acid-fermentation-sourdough (http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10375/lactic-acid-fermentation-sourdough)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: moose13 on August 16, 2014, 12:22:05 PM
Craig,

i plugged your recipe into a calculator and came up with this.
Look right?
This will be my first batch with Ischia.

Flour (100%):    494.01 g  |  17.43 oz | 1.09 lbs
Water (62.5%):    308.76 g  |  10.89 oz | 0.68 lbs
ischia (1.5%):    7.41 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.46 tsp | 0.82 tbsp
Salt (3%):    14.82 g | 0.52 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.66 tsp | 0.89 tbsp
Total (167%):   825 g | 29.1 oz | 1.82 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   275 g | 9.7 oz | 0.61 lbs

does the calculator care what yeast is used?
thanks!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 16, 2014, 12:30:32 PM
Craig,

i plugged your recipe into a calculator and came up with this.
Look right?
This will be my first batch with Ischia.

Flour (100%):    494.01 g  |  17.43 oz | 1.09 lbs
Water (62.5%):    308.76 g  |  10.89 oz | 0.68 lbs
ischia (1.5%):    7.41 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.46 tsp | 0.82 tbsp
Salt (3%):    14.82 g | 0.52 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.66 tsp | 0.89 tbsp
Total (167%):   825 g | 29.1 oz | 1.82 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   275 g | 9.7 oz | 0.61 lbs

does the calculator care what yeast is used?
thanks!

I'm not sure I understand why you are asking about yeast? If the calculator is working off %'s, then no, it doesn't matter. They are all treated the same.

Formula looks fine - the question is what temp will you ferment and for how long?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: jvp123 on August 16, 2014, 12:42:36 PM
No. Longer time does in my experience. I've gone as long as 60 hours (using appropriately less culture) at 64F, and it gets noticeably sour. I've never tasted any sour flavor in my dough fermented in the 70's. I find my dough has a lot less flavor period when fermented in the 70's.

The culture itself may be the biggest factor. Some produce much more sour flavor than others.

Higher levels of culture will ferment faster, AOTBE. Using high levels of culture with longer ferment time can also lead to complete gluten breakdown and a sloppy mess.

The only way I've been able to get any sour flavor faster (and it was much less detectable) is by fermenting up near 100F. Up that high, the bacteria does really well but the yeast does not. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14627.msg145628#msg145628 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14627.msg145628#msg145628)

This article might help you. Read all the comments too: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10375/lactic-acid-fermentation-sourdough (http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10375/lactic-acid-fermentation-sourdough)

Wow that Fresh Loaf article is amazing - lots to mine through there.  Thanks for the other information as well!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: moose13 on August 16, 2014, 12:43:33 PM
yeah, i figured it worked that way but asked for IDY, ADY or cake.
As far as temp and time, 24hrs at whatever my kitchen is currently. 75ish
I really have no way to keep and monitor a constant temp.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: moose13 on August 16, 2014, 12:56:52 PM
The inside of my turned off oven is 74 degrees
probably my most consistent spot in the house.
Any suggestions for time at this temp?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 16, 2014, 01:05:41 PM
The inside of my turned off oven is 74 degrees
probably my most consistent spot in the house.
Any suggestions for time at this temp?

24 hours sounds about right. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0)

8-12 hours before baking, start watching to see if you need to speed things up or slow them down. If you decide to do anything, make small corrections - 30 minutes in the fridge or 90F oven. Try not to do anything in the last hour or so, you don't want to be working with excessively cold or warm dough if you can help it.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Pete-zza on August 16, 2014, 05:13:38 PM
moose13,

Because you are using so little Ischia, I think you should be OK. However, if you used the Ischia entry in the tool as a proxy for one of the three general forms of yeast, you weight numbers should be fine but not the volume numbers.

Peter
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: jvp123 on August 20, 2014, 10:30:25 AM
When I've cold fermented, I've removed my dough a couple hours before bake time to get to room temp and relax.
When using the predicted perf. time table and doing a room temp fermentation does the dough go right to the bench for skinning at the end of the table time since its already at room temp or is there still a rest period.
It's usually over 80F in my kitchen in the summer.

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 20, 2014, 10:41:32 AM
When I've cold fermented, I've removed my dough a couple hours before bake time to get to room temp and relax.
When using the predicted perf. time table and doing a room temp fermentation does the dough go right to the bench for skinning at the end of the table time since its already at room temp or is there still a rest period.
It's usually over 80F in my kitchen in the summer.

Ideally, it would be ready to use - keep in mind that everyone's situation is unique and there are a lot of uncontrolled variables that differ from person to person, so you may need to tweak things to get the dough how you want it.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: jvp123 on August 20, 2014, 10:45:23 AM
Understood.  Thanks Craig!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: rsaha on August 21, 2014, 10:58:04 PM
I apologize in advance if this has been asked before but is there a reason you use coolers and ice instead of a wine cooler? I ask because I see small wine coolers that are relatively inexpensive and quite small that can be set to up to 65 degrees and I was thinking it might be a way for me to get out of cold fermenting. Also, I am still on ADY (researching a starter now). Do you believe the benefits of a 65 degree ferment are worthwhile for ADY based doughs? Does the LAB have a chance to develop from nothing fast enough when not using a starter? Again, sorry if this has been beaten to death. I feel like I'm drinking from a firehose for all the information around here...
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 21, 2014, 11:57:17 PM
I apologize in advance if this has been asked before but is there a reason you use coolers and ice instead of a wine cooler? I ask because I see small wine coolers that are relatively inexpensive and quite small that can be set to up to 65 degrees and I was thinking it might be a way for me to get out of cold fermenting. Also, I am still on ADY (researching a starter now). Do you believe the benefits of a 65 degree ferment are worthwhile for ADY based doughs? Does the LAB have a chance to develop from nothing fast enough when not using a starter? Again, sorry if this has been beaten to death. I feel like I'm drinking from a firehose for all the information around here...

There is no benefit of the cooler/ice method over a wine cooler. If I had a spare wine cooler, I'd use it.

I think ADY or any other form of cake yeast develops flavor 3-4 times as fast at room temp (60-70F) as in the fridge. i.e. 1 day at RT = 3-4 days in the fridge. SD is a whole different story. SD in the fridge will never come close to SD at 64F +/- in any sensory attribute.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: moose13 on August 22, 2014, 03:18:15 PM
What effect will it have to after 24 hr bulk ferment, to ball and fridge?
I gotta be honest i have had much better luck with dough that has been in the fridge overnight.
I just made a batch, still in the stretch and fold stage.
Any problems bulk fermenting in a metal bowl? Read something about not storing your starter in metal.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 22, 2014, 03:53:33 PM
What effect will it have to after 24 hr bulk ferment, to ball and fridge?
I gotta be honest i have had much better luck with dough that has been in the fridge overnight.
I just made a batch, still in the stretch and fold stage.
Any problems bulk fermenting in a metal bowl? Read something about not storing your starter in metal.

I don't know but I think the last 24 hours is the most critical. I've never tried a stainless bowl. I doubt it would be a problem for dough (starter may be a different issue), but I don't know for sure.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: stonecutter on August 22, 2014, 05:55:04 PM

Any problems bulk fermenting in a metal bowl? Read something about not storing your starter in metal.

As of now, that's all I use for bulk fermenting.  Not because I think it does a better job, but because it's all I have for now. As for storing starter in metal, the only thing my family and I use is glass or glazed stoneware...but I haven't heard about anything negative about SS.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: moose13 on August 22, 2014, 06:26:23 PM
I have read a couple times not to store starter in metal containers.
I am using glass for this. My mixing bowl is SS and always ferment in it since it's already dirty with residue. Should be fine
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 22, 2014, 06:29:40 PM
Stainless is corrosion resistant. It's not inert. If you have an alternate container, I don't see any sense in storing culture in stainless.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: vandev on August 22, 2014, 09:19:58 PM
Stainless is corrosion resistant. It's not inert. If you have an alternate container, I don't see any sense in storing culture in stainless.

 I think Craig has visited this road before.....Don't make it complicated...Keep it simple and stupid.. get one of these for $6.00 and just take out the rubber washer.. Works like a charm.  I just fired up the best pizza yet tonight using Craig's advice..  and i don't question him why..  Thanks buddy.. ;D

Chris
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: dylandylan on August 24, 2014, 11:56:32 PM
Sorry if this has been asked/answered before, what are the dimensions of the tubs you use for the single balls?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 25, 2014, 09:09:47 AM
They are 5.5" diameter at the bottom, 7" diameter at the top, and about 4" high. I think they are the ideal size for typical NP-size pies.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: trixaddict on August 29, 2014, 07:43:33 PM

100% Caputo (my typical batch is ~1.3kg flour)
Craig, are you still using this same 1.3kg amount of flour in your Kitchen Aid? Or, have you adjusted the amount at all over time?

Tim
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 29, 2014, 08:21:02 PM
No lately I've been making (12) 250g pie batches in the KA (K5SS), so right at 3kg dough. I don't think it can handle any more than that.

F 1,837g
W 1,139g
S 51g
C 28-33g
Title: How I make my NP dough
Post by: trixaddict on August 29, 2014, 09:36:33 PM
I think I'm gonna have to stick with 1.5kg total with my standard KA mixer and 6 dough balls. I'll be mixing my first batch of Caputo next week. My Ischia starter is active!

Thank you Craig

Tim
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: George_M on September 06, 2014, 03:50:22 AM
Hi,
I would like to ask if this dough recipe is not ideal for home electric oven.
The maximum temperature of my over is 250 oC.
I made it yesterday but i think need more heat,because the bottom is not cooked like most photos here.
I liked the taste of the dough btw..
It was the first try using some info from here and i am happy with the taste. :pizza:
I forgot to take photo from the cooked pizza because i ate it  :-D
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 06, 2014, 09:17:04 AM
I would like to ask if this dough recipe is not ideal for home electric oven.
The maximum temperature of my over is 250 oC.

It's not the recipe per-se, but rather this style of pizza is not ideal for a home oven.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: MotoMannequin on September 15, 2014, 07:26:48 PM
Craig,

I wanted to just say thanks for this and your other threads. I really appreciate your intelligent, scientific approach and your generosity when it comes to sharing your knowledge.

I made two primary changes to my dough thanks to your methodology: adding my starter to salted brine, and dramatically lowering the amount of starter I was using along with lengthening my fermentation time. Both made a real difference in flavor and texture.

Cheers,
Larry
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: moose13 on September 15, 2014, 08:14:20 PM
 ^^^
Craig is the man!
Has helped me a ton.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 15, 2014, 09:47:34 PM
Glad I could help.  ;D
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: MicheleR on September 18, 2014, 10:17:38 AM
If I use regular fresh yeast from the supermarket, do I use the same amount?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 18, 2014, 10:18:42 AM
If I use regular fresh yeast from the supermarket, do I use the same amount?

No, probably not. This table can help you find a starting point: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg285982#msg285982 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg285982#msg285982)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: z-man on September 22, 2014, 12:53:10 PM
I have a sticky situation...

Craig,
I have tried your recipe a few different times now and still struggle with dough sticking either to the wooden peel or completely unable to slide a GI metal peel under the skin after topping. Was wondering if there are any changes you could suggest as I love the finished product once it does make its way into the oven succesfully.

I have tried different hydrations from 60-65, different starter % ( I am using Ischia) from 1-1.7%, and rolling the dough out from 60-70 degrees and all seem to exhibit the same sticking issues. Not sure if I am missing someting obvious....

Also, I am having mixed results when trying to get the dough out of the oiled tubs. It seems to me the best way is to flour my fingers while pulling it slowly away from the sides of the tub. I know you stated earlier you let it drop out of the tub but that has never worked for me as one end seems to always stick leaving an uneven ball and uneven crust.

Here are some photos, this is from some leftover balls the next morning after a bake so a little longer than your 2 day suggested ferment but lost my phone the night before a whole other story...(so this is a 60 hour ferment 30 hour bulk and 30 hour ball). These were stored by your cooler technique at 60-64 during the ferment and rolled out at 65 degrees which stuck like a motha. Also, it appears my dough ultimately flattens out so much after about 12 hours of balling that they dont resemble balls at all. 

Cheers and thanks for sharing any advice as it appears this technique works so well for others that I must be missing something.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 22, 2014, 05:24:02 PM
What is the dough ball weight and the diameter of those containers? It's hard to say for sure from the pictures, but from the (apparent lack of) bubbles, they look way under-risen - not that that is contributing to your sticking problem.

I really like 61.5%. AOTBE, lower hydration should be less sticky. I lightly oil my tubs. The dough may take a few seconds to come loose when I turn it over, but it falls out on it's own just fine. If you turn your tubs over and leave it, it will never fall out? If that's the case, I don't know what to tell you other than to try different tubs. I use Rubbermaid tubs that are about 7" diameter on top and 6" on the bottom. As for sticking on the peel, if you have to use more flour, you have to use more flour. Are you sprinkling a bit of flour on your work surface and peel?

What flour are you using?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: dylandylan on September 23, 2014, 04:27:44 AM
I use Rubbermaid tubs that are about 7" diameter on top and 6" on the bottom.

Sorry to divert on a minor tangent - do you think these are the very same tubs?  Is 3.2 cups about right?
http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Kitchen/Rubbermaid-Small-Bowls-Containers-Lids-32-Cups/9999588880282 (http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Kitchen/Rubbermaid-Small-Bowls-Containers-Lids-32-Cups/9999588880282)

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 23, 2014, 09:20:31 AM
Sorry to divert on a minor tangent - do you think these are the very same tubs?  Is 3.2 cups about right?
http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Kitchen/Rubbermaid-Small-Bowls-Containers-Lids-32-Cups/9999588880282 (http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Kitchen/Rubbermaid-Small-Bowls-Containers-Lids-32-Cups/9999588880282)

I think that is a smaller version of the tubs I use. Mine say 6.2 cups on the bottom.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 23, 2014, 09:23:26 AM
Sorry to divert on a minor tangent - do you think these are the very same tubs?  Is 3.2 cups about right?
http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Kitchen/Rubbermaid-Small-Bowls-Containers-Lids-32-Cups/9999588880282 (http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Kitchen/Rubbermaid-Small-Bowls-Containers-Lids-32-Cups/9999588880282)

I'm pretty sure this is the one I use: http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Kitchen/Rubbermaid-TakeAlongs-62-Cup-Round-Container-Pack-of-3/0071691174844 (http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Kitchen/Rubbermaid-TakeAlongs-62-Cup-Round-Container-Pack-of-3/0071691174844)

Years ago, they looked like the picture you see when you first click on the link. I have some of them too. The other picture shows the current version with the red lid.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: z-man on September 23, 2014, 12:21:33 PM
Craig-

Thanks for the reply I will try 61.5% as a baseline. These balls were 275g and at bake time were showing tons of small bubbles on the bottom of the container and a few larger ones as well so thought they were fermented enough but will play around with the amount of fermentation I guess. I have been using 100% caputo. If I do try to turn the tub over and let it fall out nothing happens for at least 30 seconds or part of it will start to pull away while the other half sticks. I have tried using different levels of oil as well with no success so we might have a tub design/fermentation issue here I guess. I do notice the colder the dough the easier it is to come out of the tub. Planning on baking again this weekend and will try some different tubs and levels of fermentations and report back.

Cheers
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: theppgcowboy on September 27, 2014, 01:14:03 PM
z-man

Rolling the dough out?  What does that mean?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: MotoMannequin on September 27, 2014, 08:48:24 PM
...If I do try to turn the tub over and let it fall out nothing happens for at least 30 seconds or part of it will start to pull away while the other half sticks. I have tried using different levels of oil as well with no success so we might have a tub design/fermentation issue here I guess.

No oil in the tubs for me - I put some flour in, shake it around until all surfaces are coated, then dump the excess into the next tub. This works pretty well. I hold my hand under as the dough starts to come out, so I let it roll out very gently. I used to use oil but I think it makes the dough sticky.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Pizza-Dude on October 05, 2014, 04:01:37 PM
Can someone give me a recipe with IDY and ADY instead of starter? That would rock :)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Donjo911 on October 05, 2014, 04:11:28 PM
Can someone give me a recipe with IDY and ADY instead of starter? That would rock :)
Try this one:


"Emergency" Neapolitan Dough (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12545.msg119839#msg119839)
ę on: December 11, 2010, 01:23:42 PM Ľ


You can use IDY or ADY as a replacement for the CY.


Cheers,
Don[/size]
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 05, 2014, 06:14:23 PM
Try this one:


"Emergency" Neapolitan Dough (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12545.msg119839#msg119839)
ę on: December 11, 2010, 01:23:42 PM Ľ


You can use IDY or ADY as a replacement for the CY.


Cheers,
Don[/size]

You would need to adjust the yeast quantity, for example: http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm (http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 05, 2014, 06:21:58 PM
Can someone give me a recipe with IDY and ADY instead of starter? That would rock :)

There are lots of Neapolitan recipes out there that use ADY or IDY, but most of them fall into the class of "emergency dough;" meaning they use lots of yeast and have a short fermentation time - and no flavor. If you want to make great Neapolitan pizza, your best bet is to take something like my formula here and tweak it to make it your own based on what will work well in your situation.

My formula here can be converted to ADY or IDY using this table: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg285982#msg285982 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg285982#msg285982)
For another great formula with a slightly easier conversion, use the yeast conversion link in my previous post to convert this recipe from CY to ADY or IDY: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21730.0 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21730.0)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: rsaha on October 16, 2014, 11:47:27 AM
I am wondering about slap and fold vs. stretch and fold. I watched the video posted at the beginning of this thread. It appears to be an aggressive slap and fold. I also see a lot of references to stretch and fold which, googling a bit, seems to be a much gentler approach. Do you still use the aggressive slap and fold technique?

Also, in your initial mixing in the KA do you use the lowest speed? I have been using speed 2 and am wondering if I am overworking the dough. I find it hard to get it much past 12 inches and I never have the cornice as big as you do. I am using 275g balls.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 25, 2014, 05:00:12 PM
I error on the side of undermixing in the KA. I use both speed 1 and 2 - but mostly 1. After all the flour is in, I probably only mix for 3 minutes or so. I'm pretty aggressive with the stretch-and-folds.

What sort of flour are you using?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: rsaha on October 27, 2014, 07:06:29 PM
Finally got some Caputo Pizzeria. Before that I was using Polselli. Ischia starter - probably coming up on a couple months since I started it. I have been using the original recipe - 5 minutes - and I have been on speed 2. I will try cutting back to 3 minutes mostly on speed 1 and will do the aggressive stretch and fold. Thanks, as always, for your help.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: kickz28 on November 04, 2014, 09:39:26 PM
Hi Craig,

I've been using your recipe for my NP pizzas lately. But I'm looking at your pics in your first post in the thread, and your dough seems to be a lot more stretchy than mine. How hard are you pulling on the dough to stretch it like that? (pic #5) I don't think mine would stretch as much even if I pulled on it hard, it would probably just rip.

Hydration is 62.5%, flour is Caputo pizzeria. I don't have an electric mixer so I do everything by hand. Could I be not kneading enough?

Thanks
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 04, 2014, 09:58:17 PM
Hi Craig,

I've been using your recipe for my NP pizzas lately. But I'm looking at your pics in your first post in the thread, and your dough seems to be a lot more stretchy than mine. How hard are you pulling on the dough to stretch it like that? (pic #5) I don't think mine would stretch as much even if I pulled on it hard, it would probably just rip.

Hydration is 62.5%, flour is Caputo pizzeria. I don't have an electric mixer so I do everything by hand. Could I be not kneading enough?

Thanks

How long are you letting it rest between kneadings?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: kickz28 on November 04, 2014, 10:50:19 PM
How long are you letting it rest between kneadings?

About 7-8 minutes.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 04, 2014, 11:31:53 PM
Try 10 minutes.

I'm not pulling on it very hard at all.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: kickz28 on November 05, 2014, 06:51:44 PM
Try 10 minutes.

I'm not pulling on it very hard at all.

Alright I'll try again next time. Thanks!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: George_M on November 26, 2014, 01:35:53 PM
Quote
9) Put it in a container and let it ferment in bulk for 24 hours at ~65F. Ideally, you will see virtually no rise after 24 hours. You should maybe start to see some tiny little bubbles forming. This is how I do my bulk ferment: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18509.msg179991.html#msg179991
10) Ball the dough (make them tight without tearing the skin) and let ferment another 20-24 hours. I use lightly oiled individual Rubbermaid tubs. I use 250g balls for a 13Ē pizza. If you want a very large cornice, use 275g.

Dough trays are fine too but a little touchier as the balls will come together and will need to be cut apart and lifted out with a scraper. With the lightly oiled tubs, the dough ball just rolls right out onto your flour pile. Start the ball fermentation at ~65F in the same set-up you use for your bulk. After 12 hours, youíll have to pay attention to what is going on and either keep it at 65F or let it warm as high as 78F or so to get the balls ready when you want them ready.
Hi,
When you say for 24hours and 12 hours, you mean out of refrigerator,if i understand correct.
But this can occur any mould at the dough?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 26, 2014, 01:41:34 PM
Hi,
When you say for 24hours and 12 hours, you mean out of refrigerator,if i understand correct.
But this can occur any mould at the dough?

Yes, when making dough with sourdough, I would NEVER use the refrigerator for extended fermentation. Maybe for an hour or so to slow things down near the end, but never for an extended period.

Mold is not a concern.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: George_M on November 27, 2014, 11:49:30 AM
Thanks.
I will read more in future but now i build my 36" Oven  ;D
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: moose13 on November 28, 2014, 11:37:40 AM
Craig,
I have used your recipe several times with great results. I appreciate you posting it.
I will say sometimes i have troubles with getting way too thin and tearing bottoms during launch.
I am sure it is something i am doing along the way that is causing this.
Heres the deal, i have several friends/relatives in town for thanksgiving and want to do a pizza night on the Blackstone.
Probably 8-10 pies. I am going to make dough here shortly and wonder what i can do to make the dough a little more forgiving.
Lower the hydration? Knead or stretch more?   
Thanks for your input.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 28, 2014, 12:32:59 PM
Stretching over your knuckles is one of the biggest causes of thin spots if you are opening that way. Try opening the dough like this:

Press open the dough on the bench keeping the cornicione relatively untouched.Using the middle part of your fingers only to the extent possible, open it up 80% of the the way - pressing only and keeping it as even as possible. You can do this on your peel or slide your peel under it after it's 80% open. When you have it 80% open and on you peel, then top it. Once it's topped, stretch it out to the final diameter with your hands. the weight of the toppings will keep the middle in place, and the additional diameter will come from the cornicione where it's thickest.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: moose13 on November 28, 2014, 12:36:16 PM
I am guilty of using knuckles for sure  ::)
I will try to be more gentle, thanks for the advice!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 28, 2014, 12:42:52 PM
Gentle is not the key per-se. Attention to detail is what matters. Gentle can lead to thin spots. When opening the dough, think about everything you do before you do it. Consider what it will do and if it will lead to thin spots.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: moose13 on November 28, 2014, 01:04:43 PM
For sure Craig.
PLans have changed and looks like pizza tomorrow night, fed starter, going to make dough here soon.
Guess i need to use the prediction model for 36 hours? Thanks for the help.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Neopolitan on November 29, 2014, 03:01:09 AM
Gentle is not the key per-se. Attention to detail is what matters. Gentle can lead to thin spots. When opening the dough, think about everything you do before you do it. Consider what it will do and if it will lead to thin spots.

Jedi Master Yoda could not have formulated it better!

Thnx for the advice on the stretch without knuckles, I use the Neapolitan slap for opening and when the dough feels to weak for that I do the rotate and stretch method on the marble.

The knuckle stretch I always used to check for thin spots! Now I know you often find them this way :-D But this is the case especially with long fermented dough. With 24h dough which is still firm and elastic I did successfully stretch the dough on the knuckles.


Greetings,

Case
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: jvp123 on November 30, 2014, 10:09:52 PM
Thanks for the knuckle tip Craig! - I didn't know that and I get thin spots at times. 
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: ndg on December 12, 2014, 01:55:38 PM
This is my FIRST time using my ischia for pizza dough & just put my dough in the cooler w/ ice bottle for bulk ferment.  Love the details in your recipe, so pumped to throw it on my BlackStone this Sunday.  I am following your exact ratios but this is trial cook with my wife so lowered the volume . . 

I was shocked how little amount of starter I used.  Below is what I ended up going with, please let me know if I used the calculator incorrectly - thanks!

SIZE: 250,  QTY: 5,   DOUGH: 1,250
STARTER: 1.3% (6.18g)
FLOUR: 100% (781g)
WATER: 62.5% (475g)
SALT: 2.7% (20g)
YEAST: n/a
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: ndg on December 12, 2014, 03:18:43 PM
Yikes, starting to worry that I misunderstood the formula.  To find the amount of GRAMS for my starter, I did 1.3% of WATER . . So with 475grams of Water I added 6.18grams of starter to my brine and wisked in . . .  is that correct?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 12, 2014, 04:15:58 PM
Yikes, starting to worry that I misunderstood the formula.  To find the amount of GRAMS for my starter, I did 1.3% of WATER . . So with 475grams of Water I added 6.18grams of starter to my brine and wisked in . . .  is that correct?

No. Everything is based on flour as that is the most common (almost exclusive) method used on this site.

For 62.5%HR, 2.7% salt, 1.3% starter, 1250g dough, it would be

Flour: 750.8g
Water: 469.2g
Salt: 20.3g
Culture: 9.8g

I'd also suggest that you as 1-2% extra for bowl residue, or you will end up with balls that weigh less than 250g.

All is not lost, I bet if you do 10 of the last 12 hours at 90F in your oven with the light on, you will come out OK. Use that last couple hours to bring the temp back down to room temp so you don't have to work with 90F dough which sucks. You might let the balls come up to near room temp when you ball to give them a bit of a kick start. If you are so inclined, you can go to my starter table and figure out exactly what to do: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.0.html

Also, your hydration is only 60.8%, not 62.5% as indicated.

I wish I could go back and edit the first page of this thread. Lately, I've been using 1.7-1.9% and I like it better. Notwithstanding, you can do a lot in the last 12 hours by adjusting the temperature.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: ndg on December 12, 2014, 04:34:58 PM
Got it, thanks Craig - I really appreciate the quick response!!  I will take your advice, and to summarize . . . after my 24 hour bulk at 65F, I will bring up to room temp, and then ball will do 10 of the 12 hours in the oven at 90F - followed by a few hours at room temp before I open & bake.  Also, next time I will try 1.7% - 1.9% starter.  Thanks again!

Looking back at the PizzaFormulaPMC under the "essai 1" tab, I see where I got lost.   The Starter ROW allows you to plug in your percent - but then the right it says "% of Water" . . . not sure what that is there for, but I made the poor assumption that it meant Starter % is based off water instead of Flour (the norm).

EDIT:  I have been playing around with this calculator PizzaFormulaPMC for the past couple minutes, and want to make sure I understand correctly.  Is it best to use the tab called "essai 1" when trying to find weights for your NP dough?  If so, should I just ignore the row called STARTER up top use the row called YEAST to plug in my SOURDOUGH percent?

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 12, 2014, 05:24:28 PM
Looking back at the PizzaFormulaPMC under the "essai 1" tab, I see where I got lost.   The Starter ROW allows you to plug in your percent - but then the right it says "% of Water" . . . not sure what that is there for, but I made the poor assumption that it meant Starter % is based off water instead of Flour (the norm).

EDIT:  I have been playing around with this calculator PizzaFormulaPMC for the past couple minutes, and want to make sure I understand correctly.  Is it best to use the tab called "essai 1" when trying to find weights for your NP dough?  If so, should I just ignore the row called STARTER up top use the row called YEAST to plug in my SOURDOUGH percent?

I don't know anything about essai 1 or anything else people have done to that thing. I put it out there for a reference, but there isn't anything I can to to keep people from jacking with it.  I don't use it. I simply posted a copy of the sheet I use and only I have access to. My suggestion is to take that one that is posted and save it to your own Google Drive location (it's free and easy to set up). You can then clean it up and make sure it works just how you think it does and nobody will be able to edit it except you.

I just too a quick look, and the tab named "Copy of Sheet1 1" appears to be working fine.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: ndg on December 12, 2014, 05:36:25 PM
Ok I see . . . must have downloaded a weird version that got me off-track.  I will get the original and play around with it more.
Thanks for all the tools and thanks for the help!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 12, 2014, 06:01:01 PM
Ok I see . . . must have downloaded a weird version that got me off-track.  I will get the original and play around with it more.
Thanks for all the tools and thanks for the help!

No - you are looking at the only version I know of being out there publically. I just looked at it and saw the "essai 1" tab, so I was seeing the same thing you did. I'm simply telling you that I did not make that tab nor did I make the others I saw. When I posted the sheet, it had one tab only. Other people have added to it, and who knows what they will do in the future.

The "Copy of Sheet1 1" tab looks right. Save a copy of the sheet to a new location where only you have access and delete everything else. Make sure you understand how it works and that it works, and you will be all good.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Pete-zza on December 12, 2014, 06:02:40 PM
As noted in Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14078.msg141487/topicseen.html#msg141487 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14078.msg141487/topicseen.html#msg141487) and Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21598.msg218218/topicseen.html#msg218218 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21598.msg218218/topicseen.html#msg218218), the traditional way to make dough in Naples is to base the amounts of ingredients on the water, not the flour. However, most of our members base everything on the flour, although in the past we would have a member here or there base the ingredients on the water because they wanted to be true to the Neapolitan way. It is for that reason why, in designing the preferment dough calculation tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment-calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment-calculator.html), we included the option of expressing the preferment (such as a natural starter) as a percent of the total water. When I played around with natural starters and where I intended to use the 1-5% range (with respect to the formula water) that Marco recommended, I would forget and base the amount on the formula flour. Sometimes I got lucky and the amount fell into the range anyway but sometimes it was outside, but usually not by much.

Peter
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 12, 2014, 06:10:34 PM
the traditional way to make dough in Naples is to base the amounts of ingredients on the water, not the flour.

To that, I would add that is makes absolutely no difference what-so-ever to the pizza quality whether you base your measurements off the flour or the water. It's two different ways to get to the same place. The %'s all change, water becomes 100%, and everything else is referenced to that baseline. When converted to grams, it's the same either way. I use flour because virtually everyone else here does and this way we have a common point of reference.

One thing you cannot do is base some ingredients off flour and some off water in the same formula in you have any intention of ever changing the formula.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Pete-zza on December 12, 2014, 06:23:16 PM
One of the reasons for the Neapolitan way is to allow the pizza maker to adjust the formula to reflect seasonal changes by adjusting the amount of flour to change the hydration rather than adjusting the amount of water, as we do in the U.S. There are other ways of accomplishing these changes, usually in conjunction with the above, as by adjusting the amount of salt or the amount of commercial yeast or starter. All of these measures are taken at room temperature, which poses its own set of challenges. But I agree that it is just another way of doing things, and would lead to confusion were we to use the Neapolitan method here on the forum.

Peter
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: ndg on December 16, 2014, 10:15:45 AM
What you are saying about % based off water/flour in different regions is interesting - but I understand this site almost exclusively uses % based off flour.

Quick Feedback for Craig regarding my first Ischia Pies (using your NP dough) . . .turned out decent at best.  Obviously, the mediocre outcome was based off my mistake (added starter % based off water) and not your recipe. After my 24 hours at 65F, I cranked it up to 90F in balls for 8 hours, then let it cool to room temp before opening . . but I could tell something was off, balls lacked life & integrity - opened up ultra sticky & just blah.  I fired them on my BS with stone via IR gun around 800F . . bottom finished way before top and overall stayed rather pale.  Here are few pics - any thoughts?  Beyond I suck?

Cant wait to try it again . . I will be hosting a party for 15 people on New Years Day . . so I gotta practice, practice, practice!



 
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 16, 2014, 10:29:53 AM
I wouldn't try to draw too many conclusions from a dough that you know was not right. Try it again and go from there.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: ndg on December 16, 2014, 10:35:01 AM
Yea, fair enough.  One Quick Q . . . can I shrink your recipe down to just (1) or (2) dough balls and expect decent results?  I would like to practice more this week, but I cant keep eating the high volume of pizza at this blistering pace!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 16, 2014, 10:47:50 AM
Yea, fair enough.  One Quick Q . . . can I shrink your recipe down to just (1) or (2) dough balls and expect decent results?  I would like to practice more this week, but I cant keep eating the high volume of pizza at this blistering pace!

Theoretically you can, however your workflow (mixing, kneading, etc.) will likely be different no matter how hard you try to keep it the same. I might not matter or you might get different results. There is no way to know for sure. Also keep in mind, the smaller your batch, the more any error is magnified. 
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: vtsteve on December 16, 2014, 11:08:12 AM
Use the extra skins to practice opening, and hit them with butter/sugar/Nutella. Mmmmm. Blueberries and strawberries...
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: MotoMannequin on December 16, 2014, 12:22:29 PM
Yea, fair enough.  One Quick Q . . . can I shrink your recipe down to just (1) or (2) dough balls and expect decent results?  I would like to practice more this week, but I cant keep eating the high volume of pizza at this blistering pace!

This is typically how I work. The only differences are that I knead by hand because the small batches don't work well in my Kitchenaid, and fermentation can take longer because you don't get the "mass effect" during bulk ferment, where the mass of dough creates enough heat to help the fermentation along.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 16, 2014, 01:35:03 PM
you don't get the "mass effect" during bulk ferment, where the mass of dough creates enough heat to help the fermentation along.

I don't know at what volume of dough you start to see the "mass effect," but I'd guess it's well above anything typically seen in a home environment. That being said, it might take bulk dough longer to cool to the desired fermentation temperature, and that may cause a difference though I suspect it would be slight as well in the context of the processes used in this thread.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: vandev on December 16, 2014, 06:56:00 PM
What you are saying about % based off water/flour in different regions is interesting - but I understand this site almost exclusively uses % based off flour.

Quick Feedback for Craig regarding my first Ischia Pies (using your NP dough) . . .turned out decent at best.  Obviously, the mediocre outcome was based off my mistake (added starter % based off water) and not your recipe. After my 24 hours at 65F, I cranked it up to 90F in balls for 8 hours, then let it cool to room temp before opening . . but I could tell something was off, balls lacked life & integrity - opened up ultra sticky & just blah.  I fired them on my BS with stone via IR gun around 800F . . bottom finished way before top and overall stayed rather pale.  Here are few pics - any thoughts?  Beyond I suck?

Cant wait to try it again . . I will be hosting a party for 15 people on New Years Day . . so I gotta practice, practice, practice!



90f ..? Whow.. ???  maybe in Cambodia but not Ohio...    I have been getting great success with Craig's system and method and have messed up some steps and still turned out stellar pizza. Lately i have been 65% water..3% starter and 2.8 salt. I add all four to mixing bowl, then water with salt wisked in and then starter. I mix on low for 8 minutes rest for 4 minutes then mix for 8 more minutes. Total 20 minutes. Then i pull onto countertop and do some stretch and folds and a little kneading . I then let rest on counter for a hour covered with plastic wrap. I then put in floured container and put in cooler with frozen juice bottle. 24 hours later i take out and a couple stretch and folds and cut into 6 270g balls. put back in cooler with a new frozen juice bottle for 24 more. I pull out of cooler 4-5 hours before firing. i keep in containers on countertop. My house is at around 75-77 degrees. works awesome and super simple...I load in at around 780- 800... i also move around a lot with turning peel... Hope this helps.. ;D

Give it a try..
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: ndg on December 17, 2014, 10:45:55 AM
@vandev . . . Awesome Post.  I only went up to 90F per Craigs instructions as I messed-up and put a very low volume of starter in my dough.  Not normal. 

I will be making a small batch later this week - with plans to bake on sunday.  I will try your steps and report back, thanks again.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: vandev on December 17, 2014, 06:11:31 PM
@vandev . . . Awesome Post.  I only went up to 90F per Craigs instructions as I messed-up and put a very low volume of starter in my dough.  Not normal. 

I will be making a small batch later this week - with plans to bake on sunday.  I will try your steps and report back, thanks again.

No problem..glad i could help.. It's basically Craig's method ..i just tweak it a bit...I make my dough at night as well. Wednesday night and fire Friday night... ;D
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: ndg on December 19, 2014, 01:29:21 PM
First off . . should I be starting a new topic instead of adding on to this awesome original post by craig?  Please let me know the best etiquette here.

I will be making my next batch in a few hours and want to make sure I am using my dough calculator correctly now.  I am going with @vandev easy version of craigs using 3% Starter, 100% Flour, 65% Water, 2.8% Salt. . . so here is what I got . .  is it correct?

SIZE: 250, QTY: 4, WASTE: 2%, DOUGH: 1020

Starter: 17.9 grams, Flour: 597 grams, Water: 388 grams, Salt: 17 grams
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: ndg on December 22, 2014, 09:09:16 AM
Sad to report that my dough (using ischia) was off, again. The flavor was decent but the rise was not.  I did the full 48 hr ferment at 65F (or what I think its 65F) and finished with the last 5 hours above 75F, but end product had nice coloring, but it felt dense, I hate to say it, but certain spots were almost gummy :(

NOTES: If looking up the bottom of the tupperware, I got a very very small amount of bubbles during cold ferment, and the bubbles increased at 48 hours, but not a significant transformation.  Then, after about 5 hours at 75F, I cranked space heater up to 80F near by for about an hour, trying to get more life.  I did not want to open/roll-out hot dough, so I balled it up again and brought it down to the kitchen counter for the last hour to chill as the BlackStone was heating up.  Just ran out of time.  So after over 55 hours . .  just didnt get the bubbles like craigs picture (attached) got, so I am scratching my head today.  Any suggestions for me?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 22, 2014, 09:15:24 AM
How are you feeding your starter? When you feed it, what does it do? How long does it take to double? How far in advance of making pizza are you feeding your starter?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: ndg on December 22, 2014, 10:18:00 AM
Thanks for your reply Craig.  I have been using my starter that I keep out on the counter (for now until I nail a good pizza) and before I bake I have tried to feed twice within 24 hours.  I have been discarding all but about 90grams of starter, then I add 90 grams bottle water and 90 grams AP Flour (not 00 . . does that matter?) and seem to get nice growth.  Last dough batch, I added the starter at 2-3 hours after my feeding when it had just about doubled in size.  I added it directly to my cold brine and wisked in before adding flour.

I am not giving up on this as I believe everyone here thinks Starters make the best Pizza, but I am afraid I have to use my tried-and-true OO / IDY dough for my upcoming party.  I dont want to be stressing it since my Ischia Dough isnt rising correctly just yet. .  and I know my 00 / IDY makes a very very good pie on my blackstone.

Here are pics of my pizzas last night - should have took pic of side view of a slice as this is the ugly part - anyway let me know if you see any giant red flags based off color, etc.  THANKS!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: mitchjg on December 22, 2014, 10:23:10 AM
Craig:

I have been trying to calibrate the fermentation time for my home grown starter.  The stuff seems to be very fast (compared, for example, to my Ischia).  It is also possible that my wine fridge is off by a couple of degrees but I know it is close.  So, I need to use less, a lower temperature, or both.

Yesterday morning at 6 AM, my dough was almost at the stage of "This ball is about ready" at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20477.msg202048.html#msg202048.

Worried that it was going to be finished way too soon, I dialed the temperature down to the 40s and then increased it late in the afternoon.  Got close, but I should have let it go a little warmer/longer. 

Question:  Can you guesstimate for me how much time would elapse between "This ball is about ready" and "About the most rise I want in a ball" ?  I do not feel like I have a handle on the the last few hours of fermentation yet to be able to predict it and so I over-reacted somewhat.

If I had a good handle on that, then I think I can more readily calibrate my starter dosing at the onset.

Hope that makes sense and thanks!

- Mitch
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 22, 2014, 11:12:22 AM
Question:  Can you guesstimate for me how much time would elapse between "This ball is about ready" and "About the most rise I want in a ball" ?  I do not feel like I have a handle on the the last few hours of fermentation yet to be able to predict it and so I over-reacted somewhat.

I think the best guidance I can give is "longer than you probably think," and by "you," I don't mean you personally - I mean anyone in this situation. I'm consistently surprised how long it can take and how slow it can go - even if you warm the dough some. Luckily, the penalty for taking it a little too far is not too bad as over-fermenting is far better than under.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: ndg on December 22, 2014, 11:54:14 AM
MitchJG your post is exactly inline with my post . . love when life works that way!  So Craigs response "over-fermenting is far better than under" is very interesting and has me thinking.  For my upcoming party, what if I stick to your sourdough recipe but give myself an extra 12 hours to work with, so when the bubbles look perfect I can LOCK-IT-IN (throw in fridge) until guests arrive.  Then I could just pull my correctly fermented dough from my frige when the guests arrive and know that the worst case scenario (over fermentation) is still going to give me some Bada$$ Pizza!!!!! Thoughts?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 22, 2014, 11:59:33 AM
MitchJG your post is exactly inline with my post . . love when life works that way!  So Craigs response "over-fermenting is far better than under" is very interesting and has me thinking.  For my upcoming party, what if I stick to your sourdough recipe but give myself an extra 12 hours to work with, so when the bubbles look perfect I can LOCK-IT-IN (throw in fridge) until guests arrive.  Then I could just pull my correctly fermented dough from my frige when the guests arrive and know that the worst case scenario (over fermentation) is still going to give me some Bada$$ Pizza!!!!! Thoughts?

It's not something I would do given my experiences to date, but I'm interested to hear how it works if you try it.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: ndg on December 22, 2014, 12:02:14 PM
Also, does anyone have a picture of their dough balls in tupperware (in form that is ready to open/bake) from THE TOP showing the shape?  I see yours showing the bubbles formation through the bottom of the plastic, but I am curious if your dough balls after fermentation have a nice arch?

After 48 hours at 65F my dough is flat and after the additional 5 hours at ~75 (right before open/bake) my "dough balls" are still very flat, but might have a very slight arch.  Wondering if this is a Red Flag?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 22, 2014, 12:05:06 PM
I don't have a picture, but they are fairly flat across the top. Some arch, but not too much.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: mitchjg on December 22, 2014, 12:14:30 PM
I think the best guidance I can give is "longer than you probably think," and by "you," I don't mean you personally - I mean anyone in this situation. I'm consistently surprised how long it can take and how slow it can go - even if you warm the dough some. Luckily, the penalty for taking it a little too far is not too bad as over-fermenting is far better than under.

Thanks.  I think what I will do is cut back slowly.  Maybe 20% less and see what happens, etc.  I will let you know if there is anything notable.

- Mitch
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: dylandylan on December 22, 2014, 12:23:47 PM
I think the best guidance I can give is "longer than you probably think," and by "you," I don't mean you personally - I mean anyone in this situation. I'm consistently surprised how long it can take and how slow it can go - even if you warm the dough some. Luckily, the penalty for taking it a little too far is not too bad as over-fermenting is far better than under.

I was pleasantly surprised by this a few days ago.

My most recent batch of dough (2.75% starter) got off to a warm start at 70-75f.  At the 24 hour mark the dough was already what I would normally call ideally fermented.  But I had another 24hrs to go until bake time, so I put the dough in the basement at about 60f.  I would say the balls spent the last 12 hours at "the most rise you'd want to see" and probably went a bit further than that but the pies still came out great.  I reckon I could have baked any time within 24-48 hours and the dough would have been fine.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 22, 2014, 12:35:15 PM
Dough made in this way has a wonderfully long window of usability.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: JD on December 22, 2014, 03:39:12 PM
Sad to report that my dough (using ischia) was off, again. The flavor was decent but the rise was not.

[...]

I did not want to open/roll-out hot dough, so I balled it up again and brought it down to the kitchen counter for the last hour

It doesn't look like anyone addressed this, but your lack of rise may have been from balling too soon before baking.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 22, 2014, 03:59:52 PM
It doesn't look like anyone addressed this, but your lack of rise may have been from balling too soon before baking.

Good catch.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: ndg on December 22, 2014, 10:54:01 PM
@JD . . I really hope that was a stupid move - but I have to clarify.  Please read below and let me know if this could have been the killer, thanks.

After the bulk ferment, I kept the dough balls in the same tupperware for the remaining 24 hr ferment at ~65F.  When over, I was upset with the lack of bubbles, so I then moved those same tupperware upstairs in a small room with a space heater going near 80F.  Still not the bubbles I wanted but at this point I ran out of time . . so I brought the now warm tupperware tubs downstairs, removed the flat warm dough and balled them (tucked underneath-and-in until skin tight) and then let them sit on the cool granite under a damp towel for an hour or little longer before *opening/dressing/baking. 
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: vandev on December 23, 2014, 06:14:42 AM
Also, does anyone have a picture of their dough balls in tupperware (in form that is ready to open/bake) from THE TOP showing the shape?  I see yours showing the bubbles formation through the bottom of the plastic, but I am curious if your dough balls after fermentation have a nice arch?

After 48 hours at 65F my dough is flat and after the additional 5 hours at ~75 (right before open/bake) my "dough balls" are still very flat, but might have a very slight arch.  Wondering if this is a Red Flag?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: norma427 on December 23, 2014, 07:05:26 AM
I don't have a picture, but they are fairly flat across the top. Some arch, but not too much.

Craig,

I don't know if you recall, but I posted a photo of the top of one your dough balls at Reply 27 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26074.msg263086.html#msg263086 (eighth photo down), and of the bottom of one of your dough balls at Reply 15  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26074.msg263048.html#msg263048  (second photo down).

Norma
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 23, 2014, 07:53:27 AM
Craig,

I don't know if you recall, but I posted a photo of the top of one your dough balls at Reply 27 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26074.msg263086.html#msg263086 (eighth photo down), and of the bottom of one of your dough balls at Reply 15  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26074.msg263048.html#msg263048  (second photo down).

Norma

Thank you. I forgot about those. Those are good representative photos of my typical dough balls. If anything, I've been fermenting a bit more lately, but not significantly different.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 23, 2014, 07:56:33 AM
@JD . . I really hope that was a stupid move - but I have to clarify.  Please read below and let me know if this could have been the killer, thanks.

After the bulk ferment, I kept the dough balls in the same tupperware for the remaining 24 hr ferment at ~65F.  When over, I was upset with the lack of bubbles, so I then moved those same tupperware upstairs in a small room with a space heater going near 80F.  Still not the bubbles I wanted but at this point I ran out of time . . so I brought the now warm tupperware tubs downstairs, removed the flat warm dough and balled them (tucked underneath-and-in until skin tight) and then let them sit on the cool granite under a damp towel for an hour or little longer before *opening/dressing/baking.

Sounds like you might have had two things working against you. The lack of bubbles is one thing, and reballing before baking probably squeezed out a lot of what little gas you had and also made the ball much harder to open than it would have otherwise been which makes everything worse.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: ndg on December 23, 2014, 09:42:56 AM
Wow this forum is great!  If I cant figure it out with all this amazing support - I should just phone in crappy Pizza Hut!
~   Thanks @vandev for sharing the pictures of your dough in tupperware "ready to go" . . . those are huge dough balls!
Thanks @norma427 for sharing pictures that show a dough ball from the top in tupperware that is "ready to go" . . it is clear my dough was not ready - very helpful.  Also I enjoyed looking at your Texas Pizza Summit - looks like a great & informative trip!
Thanks @txcraig1 for your critique.  I will try again and "hope" for better bubbles, and I will never SQUEEEEZE all the gas out of my dough right before baking again - makes perfect sense!  When I think of "opening" a dough ball, I always think of starting with a perfect ball and then opening it . . . but I guess you can just "plop" the dough out of the tupperware (it will look more like an Amoeba than a Perfect Ball) and then open it?

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 23, 2014, 10:02:29 AM
Thanks @txcraig1 for your critique.  I will try again and "hope" for better bubbles, and I will never SQUEEEEZE all the gas out of my dough right before baking again - makes perfect sense!  When I think of "opening" a dough ball, I always think of starting with a perfect ball and then opening it . . . but I guess you can just "plop" the dough out of the tupperware (it will look more like an Amoeba than a Perfect Ball) and then open it?

Yes, let it fall out on it's own. Don't ever pull it out. Take care to make it round when you first start to press it out. If you start with a misshaped puck, it's really hard to make it round. Start round - finish round. And, always protect the cornicione; press from the center towards the edges - try not to press the edge. I describe how I open a ball here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20479.0.html under "Making and baking the pie."
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: ndg on December 23, 2014, 10:19:49 AM
Craig, as always, I really appreciate the detail in your response.  Thank you.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: ndg on January 05, 2015, 10:31:24 AM
Quick Update - made the best pizzas to date for my 15 person New Years party.  I got excellent flavor/rise from my (11) dough balls at 275grams each.  I ended up going 24 hours at 65F in bulk, then 24 hours ball at 65F, then about 6 hours at 80F.   

Looking back on my previous batch, I think @JD nailed my problem . . . my lack of rise was due to balling too soon before baking.  This time, I just kept the balls in the containers until I was ready to plop them on my bed of flour, open, then pull onto a wood cutting bord to top & launch.  I really enjoyed working with a large batch and the dough balls opened like a dream!

Thanks again to @txcraig1, @JD, @norma427, @vandev for all the help!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: 153g00 on January 25, 2015, 04:56:48 PM
Am I able to use regular sourdough culture for this recipe rather than traditional Ischia?

Thank you!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 25, 2015, 05:24:27 PM
Am I able to use regular sourdough culture for this recipe rather than traditional Ischia?

Thank you!

Should work fine.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: 3pedals on January 27, 2015, 08:24:16 AM
Hey all,

so I made the dough last night and although it opened up extremely easily, it kept shrinking back down to a smaller size, I used 62% hydration can that have some thing to do with it? I also am not exactly sure of the percentage of water in my starter since I went from using 1/2 cup flour & 1/4 cup water to 1/2 cup for both. Would that effect it much?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 27, 2015, 08:32:35 AM
How many inches was it when opened and how much did it shrink back?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: 3pedals on January 27, 2015, 10:26:13 AM
They were 250g balls I would say about 8 or 9" and the dough was very thin, also I noticed when I balled them in the dough tray they flattened out and expanded out, I guess that's normal though
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 27, 2015, 11:14:02 AM
250g is probably too much dough for 8-9". I use 275g for 13". I'd use 250g for 10-12"

They will definitely flatten out in a tray. NP dough tends to rise outwards as much or more than upwards due to the nature of the dough.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: 3pedals on January 27, 2015, 11:39:10 AM
I was actually aiming for 13-14" doughs guess that was my problem
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: flyhigh123 on January 30, 2015, 04:09:24 PM
craig, what are ways to get the dough a bit crispier as it bakes? i know less toppings etc, but any changes to the dough? Add oil?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 30, 2015, 04:24:11 PM
Lower temp - longer bake. Maybe a bit of oil. You are moving way far away from NP.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Chaze215 on March 11, 2015, 08:14:51 PM
I was going to give it a go at making some dough using my Ishia starter in place of ADY/IDY. However, when I feed my starter, I don't measure the weight of flour and water. I eyeball the consistency until it's like pancake batter or slightly thicker. So would this consistency be near 100% hydration? How could I use the preferment calculator with this kind of starter? I assume the calculator takes into account the water/flour in the starter to make the correct adjustments with regards to flour and hydration in the final dough. I've used only the Lehman dough calculator up until this point. Sorry for the rookie questions and thanks in advance!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 11, 2015, 08:16:54 PM
I was going to give it a go at making some dough using my Ishia starter in place of ADY/IDY. However, when I feed my starter, I don't measure the weight of flour and water. I eyeball the consistency until it's like pancake batter or slightly thicker. So would this consistency be near 100% hydration? How could I use the preferment calculator with this kind of starter? I assume the calculator takes into account the water/flour in the starter to make the correct adjustments with regards to flour and hydration in the final dough. I've used only the Lehman dough calculator up until this point. Sorry for the rookie questions and thanks in advance!

I don't use the preferment calculator. Using <2%, I don't worry about it.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Chaze215 on March 11, 2015, 08:19:12 PM
Craig, what is the approximate hydration of your starter?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 11, 2015, 08:19:51 PM
Probably a bit more than 100%
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Chaze215 on March 11, 2015, 09:18:07 PM
Probably a bit more than 100%
Cool thanks!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Chaze215 on March 13, 2015, 05:44:24 PM
Another question regarding a starter in a dough, sorry. Do you deduct the weight of flour and water in your starter from the flour and water in the dough formula? Say you have a starter that's 100% hydration and your formula calls for 50g of starter. Would you subtract 25g of water and 25g of flour from your formula?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 13, 2015, 06:07:37 PM
Another question regarding a starter in a dough, sorry. Do you deduct the weight of flour and water in your starter from the flour and water in the dough formula? Say you have a starter that's 100% hydration and your formula calls for 50g of starter. Would you subtract 25g of water and 25g of flour from your formula?

I don't, but I never use more than 2%, so I really don't think it matters at all. I also don't measure what I feed my starter, so an adjustment would just be a guess anyway. You might if you want to or maybe not. It's completely up to you and what makes you confident.  You have to find what works best for you and do that. I like 62%HR. I know people who like 58%, and I know others who use 73% and everyone is making great NP. Your starter isn't likely to swing your dough HR by 15%.

Figure out what works best for you and do that. With this thread, like my yeast and SD tables, I'm just trying to help people find a place to start.

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Chaze215 on March 13, 2015, 06:09:17 PM
Thanks again for your help Craig. I appreciate it.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 15, 2015, 09:31:10 PM
This is pretty much what my dough looks like nowadays when it's ready. I'm using a bit more culture (1.9%-2.0%) and fermenting a bit cooler (~61-62F). Almost all of the rise is happening in the last 12 hours (of 48+ total). Sometimes I need to warm it a bit at around T minus 10 hours to give it a little kick in the rear. I'm getting smaller bubbles which seem to make a much more tender crumb. This is about 2X rise.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: crawsdaddy on March 16, 2015, 08:09:12 PM
Craig,  Since I am mostly retired now, I am attempting to read all the posts in the Neapolitan board. I have read you threads several times and have just finished (wow) Omids. I have some questions for you and think others might be interested in your response too.

First, Omid suggests using a frother to mix starter in one his posts. I see where you tried that a least once a didn't like it. I assume you feel this is just too much frothing action for your dough?

Omid comments that stretching dough over knuckles  is not advisable although you state that this is something you do if dictated. Frankly, I can't stretch dough to a proper width ( that one before final stretch on peel) without using knuckles. Any comment?

Finally, I can't figure out how to stretch dough to final length on peel without disturbing the cornicione. Any suggestions.

thanks dan
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 16, 2015, 10:15:06 PM
First, Omid suggests using a frother to mix starter in one his posts. I see where you tried that a least once a didn't like it. I assume you feel this is just too much frothing action for your dough?

I've gon the other way on that one. I dissolve the salt in the water, add the culture, and then froth it up with a whisk.

Quote
Omid comments that stretching dough over knuckles  is not advisable although you state that this is something you do if dictated. Frankly, I can't stretch dough to a proper width ( that one before final stretch on peel) without using knuckles. Any comment?

I almost never do any more. I'm working the dough so little now it's just too soft and extensible to use your knuckles. I press it open, stretch a bit on the table, top, and stretch the remaining bit on the peel.

Quote
Finally, I can't figure out how to stretch dough to final length on peel without disturbing the cornicione. Any suggestions.

You will a bit, there is no way around it. I kind of slide my fingers underneath where my finger tips are just inside of the cornicione and then spread my fingers while turning my hands up and pulling outwards just a bit all in one smooth motion. It puts very little pressure on the cornicione. 
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: crawsdaddy on March 17, 2015, 10:15:08 AM


I almost never do any more. I'm working the dough so little now it's just too soft and extensible to use your knuckles. I press it open, stretch a bit on the table, top, and stretch the remaining bit on the peel.


You say your working dough so little "now"--does that mean you have changed your mix and kneed times or methodology from that you published several years ago? Or is it just a combination of experimenting with yeast levels, hydration etc. and some other factor?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 17, 2015, 10:26:26 AM
You say your working dough so little "now"--does that mean you have changed your mix and kneed times or methodology from that you published several years ago? Or is it just a combination of experimenting with yeast levels, hydration etc. and some other factor?

No, it hasn't changed that much. I didn't work it that much when I originally started this thread. I probably mix it a bit less now and do one less set of stretch-and-folds (which probably means 2). I used to want to see it silky smooth before I put it up to bulk ferment. I don't worry quite as much about that now.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Don Luigi on March 17, 2015, 10:56:12 AM
I am having a batch of dough ready for this evening and I am having fellow "forumer" Ben Holiday visiting me and bringing along 40 kg Caputo Pizzeria (thanks Aspendos!). It's 26 hour dough with Ischia Culture but again I see alot of flattening out of my dough balls. I reballed two balls for testing purposes and see how they feel in about 4 hours. But from experience I know that this batch of dough will be challenging to handle. If it sticks to the tray it will be almost impossible to work with. Craig, you said your dough is very easy to open as well maybe I am just too used to cake yeast (which rises much more to the top) but check this pic, do you think this flattening is normal? This is only 62% Hydration....
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 17, 2015, 11:01:15 AM
I think that's probably about what my dough would look like at that stage if I fermented it in trays. It gets very flat in the tubs I use.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Don Luigi on March 17, 2015, 11:05:59 AM
Good to know - thanks Craig!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Chaze215 on March 17, 2015, 08:08:25 PM
Don, what are the weight of those doughballs? 250-275g?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Don Luigi on March 18, 2015, 04:19:41 AM
Chaze, good catch - these were 260gr! Here's how the Pizza came out

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=36320.msg370613#msg370613
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: crawsdaddy on March 18, 2015, 11:08:52 AM
No, it hasn't changed that much. I didn't work it that much when I originally started this thread. I probably mix it a bit less now and do one less set of stretch-and-folds (which probably means 2). I used to want to see it silky smooth before I put it up to bulk ferment. I don't worry quite as much about that now.

thanks. gives me something to work on. I don't see how the mixing and kneading in my KA can be much less than about 8 minutes so I probably need to eliminate 1 stretch and fold and maybe reduce some of the hand kneading although am reluctant to reduce the hand kneads very much  because it catches so much air during the process.
As an aside, I am wondering if I am trying to stretch the dough too cool because of the ambient temperature outside now in Texas. Maybe I would be better off leaving it in kitchen (about 70f) until time to bake?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Chaze215 on March 18, 2015, 07:30:14 PM
Craig, didn't you have a fermentation prediction chart (similar to the starter chart) for ADY/IDY/fresh yeast too? Or am I thinking of something else I may have seen elsewhere? I've been poking around your threads and didn't see anything. Thanks!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: mitchjg on March 18, 2015, 07:31:57 PM
Craig, didn't you have a fermentation prediction chart (similar to the starter chart) for ADY/IDY/fresh yeast too? Or am I thinking of something else I may have seen elsewhere? I've been poking around your threads and didn't see anything. Thanks!

Here it is:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.0
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Chaze215 on March 18, 2015, 07:37:33 PM
Here it is:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.0
Thank you mitch and Craig!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Chaze215 on April 03, 2015, 08:07:14 PM
Here it is:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.0
Just curious. I was playing around with the dough calculator and plugged in .07% for ADY which came out to a miniscule amount and couldn't possibly be correct, but when I plugged in .7% the amount seems right. So, for the fermentation table, should there be 0 for the %s (.05%, .06% etc...) or no? Thanks!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 03, 2015, 09:52:28 PM
Just curious. I was playing around with the dough calculator and plugged in .07% for ADY which came out to a miniscule amount and couldn't possibly  even correct, but when I plugged in .7% the amount seems right. So, for the fermentation table, should there be 0 for the %s (.05%, .06% etc...) or no? Thanks!

No - the decimals are right. If anything, it's telling you to use too much yeast as is. I just baked some pies made with 0.025% IDY. It had 0.25g yeast is just over 1kg of flour. I did 32 hours at 58-65F. They were perfectly fermented but should have been a touch over-femented per the chart. I weigh my yeast in a beam-balance reloading scale that is accurate to 1/7000lb (1 grain). In this case, I used 3.9 grains IDY.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: f.montoya on April 05, 2015, 10:14:57 AM
... I just baked some pies made with 0.025% IDY. It had 0.25g yeast is just over 1kg of flour. I did 32 hours at 58-65F. They were perfectly fermented but should have been a touch over-femented per the chart. I weigh my yeast in a beam-balance reloading scale that is accurate to 1/7000lb (1 grain). In this case, I used 3.9 grains IDY.

Interesting. I've been tinkering with the low end (% of yeast) a lot. One of things that took a while for me to understand was that even a tiny, tiny bit of yeast, given the right conditions and enough time, can be more than sufficient.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Chaze215 on April 05, 2015, 10:27:33 AM
No - the decimals are right. If anything, it's telling you to use too much yeast as is. I just baked some pies made with 0.025% IDY. It had 0.25g yeast is just over 1kg of flour. I did 32 hours at 58-65F. They were perfectly fermented but should have been a touch over-femented per the chart. I weigh my yeast in a beam-balance reloading scale that is accurate to 1/7000lb (1 grain). In this case, I used 3.9 grains IDY.
Wow...you learn something new everyday! I was thinking there's no way the amount of ADY that it was calling for could be right. I guess it was and I will have to give it a go! In my formula the amount of ADY was .33g or .01oz. And as you mentioned, I would need a scale to measure such a small amount. My current scale wouldn't be able to do it. Thanks!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 05, 2015, 10:35:14 AM
Wow...you learn something new everyday! I was thinking there's no way the amount of ADY that it was calling for could be right. I guess it was and I will have to give it a go! In my formula the amount of ADY was .33g or .01oz. And as you mentioned, I would need a scale to measure such a small amount. My current scale wouldn't be able to do it. Thanks!
Chaz,

Here is an example where I used only 0.012% IDY (about one-hundredths of a teaspoon) but with a high room temperature: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg62332#msg62332 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg62332#msg62332). That was not for a Neapolitan style dough but the basic principles are the same.

Peter
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 05, 2015, 03:19:02 PM
In my formula the amount of ADY was .33g or .01oz. And as you mentioned, I would need a scale to measure such a small amount. My current scale wouldn't be able to do it. Thanks!

You can do it with most any scale. Dissolve 1g of yeast in 99g water. It's now 1% yeast. 33g of the mixture will have .33g of yeast. If you scale has trouble measuring 1g, dissolve 10g yeast in 90g water and use 3.3g of the mixture.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Chaze215 on April 05, 2015, 08:07:30 PM
You can do it with most any scale. Dissolve 1g of yeast in 99g water. It's now 1% yeast. 33g of the mixture will have .33g of yeast. If you scale has trouble measuring 1g, dissolve 10g yeast in 90g water and use 3.3g of the mixture.
Ahhhhhhhh....ok. Makes sense. Just to be sure of accuracy, I think I would dissolve 10g in h2o. Thanks Craig!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: dylandylan on April 19, 2015, 02:32:44 PM
Dilute and conquer!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Chaze215 on May 05, 2015, 09:48:56 PM
I saw a video online a while ago Roberta's dough recipe for 2 12" pies. I just went back and converted the recipe into baker's Č. And from the recipe, the ADY% comes out to .0065% (2g ADY/306g flour). Am I missing something? Can this be right?
http://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1016230-robertas-pizza-dough
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 05, 2015, 09:54:22 PM
Chaz,

The correct ADY percent is 0.65%.

Peter
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 05, 2015, 10:02:37 PM
That's a lot of yeast.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Chaze215 on May 05, 2015, 10:24:19 PM
Pete, how did u arrive at that #? Wouldn't it be 2/306?
Craig, I agree.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Chaze215 on May 05, 2015, 10:33:50 PM
Nevermind, I know to x by 100 to get the %. My bad.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Chaze215 on May 05, 2015, 10:35:19 PM
.65% isn't even on your chart Craig...lol
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 06, 2015, 08:40:36 AM
If I went that high, it would be too wide. I figured if someone was making emergency dough they didn't need the chart.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Chaze215 on May 06, 2015, 09:52:04 AM
If I went that high, it would be too wide. I figured if someone was making emergency dough they didn't need the chart.
I would consider that emergency dough as well. I'm not convinced this is really their dough recipe anyway.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 06, 2015, 10:01:24 AM
I would consider that emergency dough as well. I'm not convinced this is really their dough recipe anyway.

I think Roberta's uses a natural starter. I was there with Chau and some other folks from PM a few years back. He could taste it. I wasn't as sure. We asked, and they said it was a natural starter.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: HansB on May 06, 2015, 03:25:40 PM
Craig, I just ordered my Ischia starter so that I can try to make your dough. In the book Classic Sourdoughs the Pizza recipe uses 21% culture. Your recipe uses about 1.5%. I'm sure you tried many formulas to come up with your great results. That said, how much difference is there between using IDY or cake yeast vs. the starter when the starter amount is so small?

Thanks
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 06, 2015, 05:51:46 PM
Craig, I just ordered my Ischia starter so that I can try to make your dough. In the book Classic Sourdoughs the Pizza recipe uses 21% culture. Your recipe uses about 1.5%. I'm sure you tried many formulas to come up with your great results. That said, how much difference is there between using IDY or cake yeast vs. the starter when the starter amount is so small?

Thanks

First thing, rip all the pages that talk about pizza out of the book and burn them. Notice I didn't put a smiley behind that. I'm serious.

The difference is meaningful. Every time I make pizza with IDY, part of me hopes I will like it as much as SD because it's so much easier. Sadly, I never do.

It's like planting a seed. It's small, but it grows. Time and temperature are what matters.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: HansB on May 06, 2015, 06:28:59 PM
Thanks, I'm really looking forward to getting started with the culture!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 06, 2015, 06:30:16 PM
Nowadays, I use about 1.5% in the summer and 1.9% in the winter.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: f.montoya on May 07, 2015, 10:44:19 AM
First thing, rip all the pages that talk about pizza out of the book and burn them. Notice I didn't put a smiley behind that. I'm serious.

There are probably thousands of books on pizza that should be used as ignition fuel for your WFO, IMO.

The difference is meaningful. Every time I make pizza with IDY, part of me hopes I will like it as much as SD because it's so much easier. Sadly, I never do.

It's like planting a seed. It's small, but it grows. Time and temperature are what matters.

The only disagreement I have is with how "meaningful" it is to use one over the other. CY, IDY and SD can produce very similar, if not exactly the same, visual results, depending on your fermentation methods, time and temperatures. Even texture can be identical. Flavor, or more specifically, the aroma, of the cornice (the only part of your pie not dominated by the flavors of the tomato, cheese, oil, etc.) is the only difference. It can be slight, or it can be a little more than slight, but it is noticeable. How noticeable? Well 10 out of 10 of my guests could not tell the difference, even when tasting side by side. I know of a group of "Neo" pizza makers on this board (shall remain nameless) who traveled together a few years back, and sampled several Neo places in New York and many guessed wrong (as to what the pizza joint was using) often enough to suspect they could not really tell the difference. I agree with Craig that there is a distinct flavor(or aroma) to SD, and even a soft "tanginess", if left in the mouth for a moment. I even agree that I prefer it slightly. But in my specific case, where I run parties for my English conversation school, and have 40 to 50 attendees, it's not worth the trouble. I'll use SD in small batches, when I have only a few adult friends as guests.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Don Luigi on May 07, 2015, 04:55:00 PM
I can achieve a kind of "yoghurty" creaminess/melt in your mouth feel with SD in my doughs taste and texture that I was never able to get with CY. Never tried IDY but I might give it a shot soon. I prefer SD over CY but both can yield great results undoubtedly
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Chaze215 on May 07, 2015, 09:58:13 PM
I notice that no one mentions ADY. Is this the red headed stepchild of the yeast world?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: David Esq. on May 08, 2015, 04:00:34 AM
Adding a bit of IDY to a naturally leavened dough makes the crumb a hit lighter and gives a bit more riser when baking bread. I expect there are similar results when making a pizza.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: fagilia on May 08, 2015, 08:40:07 AM
I only had results similar to SD  when mixing yeast and SD for pizza. Fresh yeast was quite different
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 08, 2015, 08:41:27 AM
I notice that no one mentions ADY. Is this the red headed stepchild of the yeast world?

I don't have a problem with ADY per se. IDY is just so much easier and more reliable.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 08, 2015, 09:06:38 AM
CY, IDY and SD can produce very similar, if not exactly the same, visual results, depending on your fermentation methods, time and temperatures. Even texture can be identical. Flavor, or more specifically, the aroma, of the cornice (the only part of your pie not dominated by the flavors of the tomato, cheese, oil, etc.) is the only difference.

I agree; I think the recent IDY pies I made (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14249.1825) look nearly identical to my SD pies.  Notwithstanding, I'd stress that the operative word is "can." Flavor could be all but identical too depending on what you do. Or it could be so obviously different that it would be impossible to miss. I don't think most people who try my pies would realize they are SD. There is no sourness to them. It's just a richer, more complex flavor. I'd also add that you can make really bad pizza with SD too. Like anything else, there is no magic to it.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 08, 2015, 09:11:35 AM
Adding a bit of IDY to a naturally leavened dough makes the crumb a hit lighter and gives a bit more riser when baking bread. I expect there are similar results when making a pizza.

I tend to doubt that it is a direct result of the IDY per-se but rather more yeast of any sort will tend to result in more fermentation, AOTBE.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: David Esq. on May 08, 2015, 11:21:41 AM
I tend to doubt that it is a direct result of the IDY per-se but rather more yeast of any sort will tend to result in more fermentation, AOTBE.
yes, but if you were to add "more yeast of any sort", all other things would not be equal because leaven is different from grains of yeast.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 08, 2015, 11:52:40 AM
yes, but if you were to add "more yeast of any sort", all other things would not be equal because leaven is different from grains of yeast.

All other things being time, temp, and the balance of the formula. If you add more yeast and don't change anything else, it's not surprising you get more rise, but you can get to the same place without adding IDY and instead changing other variables such as time or temp. IDY can be used as a crutch in SD, but it's not necessary to achieve optimum crumb.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: David Esq. on May 08, 2015, 12:19:39 PM
All other things being time, temp, and the balance of the formula. If you add more yeast and don't change anything else, it's not surprising you get more rise, but you can get to the same place without adding IDY and instead changing other variables such as time or temp. IDY can be used as a crutch in SD, but it's not necessary to achieve optimum crumb.
I have made world class straight sourdough, straight IDY, and mixed sourdough and IDY bread, not pizza, following the Forkish formulae, and he suggests that adding the IDY gives a lighter airier crumb (I will have to doublecheck his wording) to the loaf.  He does not use the word "optimum", presumably, leaving that up to the individual's own taste.  I can't even say that I know what "optimum" crumb is for me. I know what I don't like, but I have had a wide range of things I really love, which look and feel quite different.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 08, 2015, 12:22:40 PM
For sure, optimum is largely a matter of personal preference. If IDY helps get you there, by all means you should use it.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: David Esq. on May 08, 2015, 12:57:13 PM
For sure, optimum is largely a matter of personal preference. If IDY helps get you there, by all means you should use it.
Personally, I don't like to have to buy another ingredient to keep in the house.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 08, 2015, 01:04:30 PM
Ditto, but I actually use quite a bit of IDY. Other than NP, it's all I use for pizza.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: f.montoya on May 10, 2015, 08:51:32 AM
I agree; I think the recent IDY pies I made (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14249.1825) look nearly identical to my SD pies.  Notwithstanding, I'd stress that the operative word is "can." Flavor could be all but identical too depending on what you do. Or it could be so obviously different that it would be impossible to miss. I don't think most people who try my pies would realize they are SD. There is no sourness to them. It's just a richer, more complex flavor. I'd also add that you can make really bad pizza with SD too. Like anything else, there is no magic to it.

I think a lot of what you hit on here is of my sentiment when people ask my advice(on my YouTube channel). I do disagree with the "operative word being "can". I think the operative words are "should GET to that point first". I recommend IDY for beginners because jumping into poolishes, starters, and cake yeasts represent a lot of additional variables that they don't need, and wouldn't know how to manipulate to troubleshoot, especially since they haven't mastered basic dough management yet. Instant Dry Yeast is one "consistent" part of dough-making that should be adopted first, and mastered, IMHO, to the degree of maximizing it's flavor producing and fermenting results, before moving on to other leavening products.

If anything, my previous post was tried to convey this. "Craig's" recipe will simply not work for the average newbie if the basics of dough making are not, to some degree, brought to a fairly good level of competency first. In my opinion, one has to get  the consistency of IDY to work every time to a high level. Then experiment with Sour Dough or other leaveners (with a notebook handy) after that.

Craig, if you disagree, say so. :)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 10, 2015, 09:04:45 AM
No. Nothing I disagree with. I didn't understand what you were trying to say the first time. I do now.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: IIFYMpizza on June 23, 2015, 03:51:35 PM
Craig,
You seem to be the SD god on the forum so i thought i'll ask for your help :) how do i start with SD if i cant get Ischia culture that you use? Should i just start my SD by mixing flour with water, feed it when its the right time and leave the rest to wild yeast? Also how do i know SD is ready to be used? Should i still use your SD chart if not using Ischia culture?
Thanks
Jan
Title: How I make my NP dough
Post by: David Esq. on June 23, 2015, 04:30:54 PM
Made my starter following King Arthur flour's guidelines using flour and water. Did it again using Carl's Oregon Trail starter, which you can get for free. Google friends of Carl Oregon starter. Don't follow their directions though. Just add water and flour every day or every couple of days until it is bubbling nicely. It is good to go when it is nice and airy.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: David Esq. on June 23, 2015, 04:31:41 PM
I use the chart (iPhone app version) and it works fine with either starter.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: tommes on June 23, 2015, 04:58:10 PM
Hello IIFYMpizza,

take a look at http://sourdoughhome.com/index.php?content=startingastarter or, if you speak german der-sauerteig.de

best regards Thomas
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 23, 2015, 05:02:33 PM
Furthering David's comment, the table seems to be a reasonably good predictor for most SD cultures. It should get you fairly close. Keep notes and adjust your fermentation time/temp as needed.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: IIFYMpizza on June 24, 2015, 04:22:36 PM
Thank you guys for the info, i'll make sure to let you know how it all went. I started my SD 2 days ago and after 24h i fed it (flour and water 1:1) ratio. Before i fed it was bubbly and seemed alive, today it doesnt look like it anymore. Should i feed it or wait? If so should i add just flour or flour and water?
Jan
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 24, 2015, 04:32:45 PM
Yes, feed it flour and water. If it's ready for use, it should double in 2-3 hours. If it's a new starter, it could take several days or more to be ready to use.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: IIFYMpizza on June 24, 2015, 05:24:15 PM
Thanks a lot Craig. Dont really know what kind of difference to expect after switching from CY/IY to a SD but we shall see. Want to start working on my formula using starter as i wait for my p134h and things are about to get serious  :chef:
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: David Esq. on June 24, 2015, 06:10:38 PM
Your starter's first bubbling is bacterial activity. The yeast activity usually happens after you think it must have died. Feed it once a day or every other until it bubbles again.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: maltdoctor on June 26, 2015, 06:58:43 AM
Thanks for all the great tips, this is a great thread!  A lot of new things to try on my next few pizza making sessions.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: IIFYMpizza on June 27, 2015, 03:00:01 PM
Guys,
another question. If i ferment my dough in 70F vs 60-65F does it make it harder for me to work with it when its time to bake? I find that my dough opens up almost to easy, yet i dont think it overfermented as its still pretty strong and the activation at the bottom is close to what i see on your pictures. Would putting the dough in the fridge for 20 mins before openning up be a good idea?  Also what is the reason you choose to do bulk ferment stage? What kind of difference does it make vs rising the dough balled entire time?
Thanks as always
Jan
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 27, 2015, 05:50:19 PM
70F should be fine. If your dough opens too easily, do less time in balls. I wouldn't suggest putting the dough in the fridge before baking. For one thing, I doubt it will accomplish what you want and the temperature won't eaulize in 20 minutes. Also, it might have negative effects on the baked crust. I do at least 24 hours bulk because more than 24 hours in balls is too much for me. The longer it is in balls the less elastic it's going to be as the gluten has more time to relax.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: NestorP on June 29, 2015, 10:47:14 PM
Thanks for the great info Craig. Just got my SD starter up and running...  Two questions:

1. Salt in dough recipe -- table or Kosher? (I know table is much stronger).

2. Mixer -- I have the same one.  Do you set it on lowest (stir) setting?  I assume it runs during the entire 5 min you are adding the additional flour?

Thanks!



The last of the pics:
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 30, 2015, 12:14:12 AM
Thanks for the great info Craig. Just got my SD starter up and running...  Two questions:

1. Salt in dough recipe -- table or Kosher? (I know table is much stronger).

2. Mixer -- I have the same one.  Do you set it on lowest (stir) setting?  I assume it runs during the entire 5 min you are adding the additional flour?

Thanks!

1. Kosher, but when you measure by weight, the difference is not particularly meaningful.

2) yes, on speed one or two.

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: NestorP on June 30, 2015, 08:18:40 PM
I realized that (measuring by weight) a few minutes after I hit send. Duh!

As for the mixing, I ended up adding some more flour to the mixer as the dough was VERY wet and did not form into a ball like your pictures. Not sure if I should have or not. Nor was my dough as beautifully silky as yours after my stretch and folds (I also used bench flour at this step).  I'll learn with practice!

Here's a pic of the bulk after 22 hours or so (the discoloration is on the container, not the dough).  When I ball, is there some preferred technique you could share?

Thanks again, your posts have been very helpful.



1. Kosher, but when you measure by weight, the difference is not particularly meaningful.

2) yes, on speed one or two.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 30, 2015, 09:30:25 PM
When I ball, is there some preferred technique you could share?

I don't do anything particularly interesting. I just fold the dough back up under itself a few times making a tight ball. Seal it well at the bottom.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: IIFYMpizza on July 03, 2015, 10:09:53 AM
Craig,
another question for you. I made my first pie using SD and it was much much better than those i made with CY or IDY but i noticed that my dough does not rise that much. i mean it expands a lot but is pretty flat even after a 24h. What might be the reason for that? SD not ready to used yet?
Thanks
Jan
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 03, 2015, 10:25:09 AM
Craig,
another question for you. I made my first pie using SD and it was much much better than those i made with CY or IDY but i noticed that my dough does not rise that much. i mean it expands a lot but is pretty flat even after a 24h. What might be the reason for that? SD not ready to used yet?
Thanks
Jan

It could be that the starter is not ready to be used - or maybe it wasn't fully active before you used it - or maybe you need to let it ferment longer.

How are you storing your starter? How do you activate it before using? Maybe describe your entire process from starter to baking pizza.

One of the reasons that SD is more difficult than baker's yeast is that there are a lot more variables to first understand, second maximize, and third control. With SD, it's less important how you do things and more important that (once you figure out what works well for you) you do what you do the same way every time.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: mitchjg on July 03, 2015, 03:53:19 PM

7) It will have relaxed noticeably. Stretch and fold it 4 or 5 times. Watch this video if you donít know what I mean by stretch and fold: http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough.  It will get stiff again and get some tears on the surface. Cover and let it rest again for another 7-10 minutes. Remember to try to capture air in the dough as you do your stretch and folds.
8] Give it a few more stretch and folds. If it is now silky smooth, youíre done. If not, give it one more rest and a few more stretch-and-folds, and you should be good to go.


Craig: I was making hamburger buns today with the Bertinet approach and I remembered you referred to it in this thread. A couple of things:
- the link is dead (as I think you know from the hamburger bun recipe)
- do you really do "slap" and fold like in his video?  or do you do more gentle/typical stretch and folds.

Thanks
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 03, 2015, 04:18:23 PM
Craig: I was making hamburger buns today with the Bertinet approach and I remembered you referred to it in this thread. A couple of things:
- the link is dead (as I think you know from the hamburger bun recipe)
- do you really do "slap" and fold like in his video?  or do you do more gentle/typical stretch and folds.

Thanks

I can't fix the link here - maybe Peter can. Notwithstanding, all the links can be found here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17125.0

When I make a really wet dough like the the Bertinet dough - and I make some pizza dough that wet from time to time - I'm every bit as slap happy as in the video. With my typical pizza dough, it's more gentle.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: IIFYMpizza on July 03, 2015, 05:28:00 PM
I made my starter 10 days ago, and was feeding it flour and water 1:1 ration for 5 days every 24h, i stored it in the fridge 4 days and yesterday decided i am going to make a pizza today so i took it out of the fridge fed it and let it sit at 70F for the night, today first thing in the morning i calculated my SD % (17.4) for a 12h rise at 70 F and wow it turned out well. Ofc lots lots of room to improove but it was hands down the best tasting pizza i have ever made. Baked at 550 F for 2 min 50 seconds on a stone. And today dough has nicely risen. Here's a pic:
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 03, 2015, 05:42:28 PM
If I put mine in the fridge, I like to give it a couple days and a couple feedings before I use it. I like it to be active enough to double in 2-3 hours after feeding before use.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 03, 2015, 09:46:44 PM
I can't fix the link here - maybe Peter can. Notwithstanding, all the links can be found here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17125.0
I provided a functioning link to the Bertinet Gourmet video in the opening post in this thread, and did a little housekeeping to get rid of unnecessary posts.

Peter
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 03, 2015, 09:58:52 PM
Thanks Peter!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: HansB on July 04, 2015, 11:31:24 AM
I'm on day two of activating my Ischia starter. Is it supposed to smell like gorgonzola? ???
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 04, 2015, 11:37:37 AM
I'm on day two of activating my Ischia starter. Is it supposed to smell like gorgonzola? ???

Probably not, but it might take a couple weeks of feedings to really be ready.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: IIFYMpizza on July 07, 2015, 03:35:51 AM
I made such a mistake messing up with SD starter as pizza turns out so much better even with the home oven. Yesterday i made a dough with CY as i forgot to take my starter out of the fridge. Its amazing how big of difference it does make.Not sure if i could go back to commercial yeast dough recipes. On the other hand i bought myself Caputo Pizzeria flour and it makes such a workable dough (i usually go for  a 60% hydration), i was using 00 type flour with 10% protein content before and now that i compare those two it was able to absorb much less water. Craig what hydration would you recommend for a Caputo blu?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 07, 2015, 09:17:15 AM
Craig what hydration would you recommend for a Caputo blu?

IF by blu, you mean Pizzeria, I like about 62%. Most of the best pies I've seen are between 58% and 64%.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: IIFYMpizza on July 07, 2015, 09:33:28 AM
Yes, indeed Caputo Pizzeria. I'll go for 62% next time i make my dough. thanks as always
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 07, 2015, 09:46:00 AM
You might try 61% first. I wouldn't suggest jumping up more than 1% at a time.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: IIFYMpizza on July 09, 2015, 06:28:54 AM
Craig,
sorry to rain all those questions on you but i have another one regarding SD starter. If i take my SD out of the fridge and feed it couple times like you said you'd do- how long should i wait till i use it to make the dough? My starter is alive for sure, as it doubles in size after feeding and gets bubbly seconds after i feed it but i keep getting my dough very flat at the end of fermentation. Maybe i ball my dough incorectly, maybe the starter still isnt ready after 2.5 weeks. I also find that using bigger % of starter in my dough (for shorter rises when i dont have time to prep my dough in advance) makes it hard to handle the dough as it seems very sticky despite using only 60% hydration. If you need pictures let me know i ll post them
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 09, 2015, 10:40:43 AM
I usually feed it in the morning and make pizza in the evening. What is important is that you do the same thing every time. How you do it exactly is much less important. Else, it can be hard to get consistent, predictable results.

How much is a "bigger %?" The more starter you add, the more acid and enzymes you add to the dough. In sufficiently large quantities, these attack the gluten and make the dough sticky.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: IIFYMpizza on July 09, 2015, 06:37:43 PM
By bigger % i ment anything above 20%.

Here are some pics from todays bake:

39.4 % starter
2.8 % salt
60% hydration
6h 70F rise
250 C under the broiler 2:50min

Maybe you could tell me if the dough looks good to be baked or is it under/over fermented. this wet dough gives me trouble while i form my dics, its so soft and wet. Enjoyin the hell out of this process tho, super fun to learn something that cool. Still wait for my p134h but i am aware that the main focus should be on a dough formula, the oven is not going to make mirracles happen.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 09, 2015, 06:52:28 PM
39.4% is definitely pushing the limits. I'm not surprised it's a bit wet. It looks like it still has some strength though. I doubt it's overfermented. It's probably about right.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: IIFYMpizza on July 10, 2015, 03:38:16 AM
thanks Craig for all your help i feel like i made bigger progress since i joined the forum than i made in over a year that i was making (trying) to make pizza.
SD is for sure supirior to any type of comercial yeast, at least IMO (just like you said). Cant get enough of this funky flavor and i dont know if that makes sense but i feel like i get diffrent, better texture of the crust. Yesterday i made a batch of dough for todays bake, caluclated 24h rise at controled room temp 70F (i have a mini redbull fridge switched off and it is very well isolated so the temp on a particular day seems to not affect it at all thus allows me for a steady rise) it called for a 3.4 % of a starter. we'll see what happens, and we'll see if i am able to get my formula good enough for neapolitan style- i have 4 weeks till p134h arrives  :drool:
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Attikus on September 09, 2015, 02:40:26 PM
Craig, how many pizza's do you get out of 1.3kg of flour? Also, do you think similar results can be achieved to yours with ADY? I ordered an Ischia starter two weeks ago, and it still hasn't arrived  :'(
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 09, 2015, 05:26:25 PM
Craig, how many pizza's do you get out of 1.3kg of flour? Also, do you think similar results can be achieved to yours with ADY? I ordered an Ischia starter two weeks ago, and it still hasn't arrived  :'(

I generally use 1.7kg and make (10) 275g ball. From 1.3kg, I'd get 7 with some extra dough.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Attikus on October 16, 2015, 01:13:03 AM
Craig, on average how much height are you getting on your cornicione? Mine is fairly consistant at about 0.5". I would like to be able to get more height, but I'm not quite sure what I'm doing wrong. I am using Caputo blue bag with 62.5% water, 3% salt, 2% Ischia, and am doing a 36 bulk/12 hour balled rise. I know it's hard to say based on the number of variables at play, but I'm thinking it's either the ischia or my handling/dressing the dough that is the issue. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 16, 2015, 08:39:01 AM
Craig, on average how much height are you getting on your cornicione? Mine is fairly consistant at about 0.5". I would like to be able to get more height, but I'm not quite sure what I'm doing wrong. I am using Caputo blue bag with 62.5% water, 3% salt, 2% Ischia, and am doing a 36 bulk/12 hour balled rise. I know it's hard to say based on the number of variables at play, but I'm thinking it's either the ischia or my handling/dressing the dough that is the issue. Any thoughts?

Mine is probably 3/4"-1".

What is your ball weight and pizza diameter?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Don Luigi on October 16, 2015, 08:45:17 AM

Mine is probably 3/4"-1".
Must resist to make silly jokes....
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 16, 2015, 09:39:40 AM
Not bad for an armadillo.  :-D
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Attikus on October 16, 2015, 09:55:19 AM
Mine is probably 3/4"-1".

What is your ball weight and pizza diameter?

275 grams and I would say my pizzas are generally 13-14" in diameter. 
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 16, 2015, 10:05:02 AM
275 grams and I would say my pizzas are generally 13-14" in diameter.

Mine are also 275g, but my diameter is typically 12-13", so I'm not surprised your cornicione is ~1/2". I think if you target 13", you will see a noticeable increase.

I doubt it's anything other than that unless you aren't getting at least 1.7X rise in your balls before baking.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 16, 2015, 10:06:41 AM
I'd also add that I think a 14" pie with a 1/2" cornicione looks great.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Attikus on October 16, 2015, 02:31:40 PM

I doubt it's anything other than that unless you aren't getting at least 1.7X rise in your balls before baking.

I'm using a cookie sheet with 6 balls on it for my balled rise. I can't tell if I am getting 1.7x rise as they tend to just flatten out by the time I remove them from the cooler. The flattened balls also have a height of approx. 0.5".

School has been getting the best of me lately and yesterday I wasn't able to get a jump on the dough I will be using for tomorrow night. I plan to stick to your standard formula but do a 12 hour bulk/12 hour balled rise. I may bump up my Ischia to 3%+ in hopes that it will help compensate for the short fermentation period. I will try to better document/photograph my process so you can see what I'm working with.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Attikus on October 20, 2015, 02:15:03 PM
I was able to achieve a 3/4" - 1" height in my cornicione with 63% water / 3.5% Ischia / 3% Salt. I bulk fermented for 18 hours at 65 degrees, balled and left at room temperature (75 degrees) for 8 hours. My dough was too wet, requiring much more bench flour than I would prefer to use. Flavor was awesome. You could especially pick up the sourdough flavor in the crust eating it cold the following day. Texture was quit a bit more chewy than sticking to Craig's classic formula.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Tricia1quinn on December 13, 2015, 09:35:20 PM
I ordered my starter a few days ago. I sure hope it doesn't take weeks!! Craig just a quick question - what kind of salt are you using? Table? Sea? Kosher? I am sure the type makes a difference in what % you use in the dough. Thank you for your help!! Pizza On!!   :pizza:
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 13, 2015, 10:09:31 PM
I ordered my starter a few days ago. I sure hope it doesn't take weeks!! Craig just a quick question - what kind of salt are you using? Table? Sea? Kosher? I am sure the type makes a difference in what % you use in the dough. Thank you for your help!! Pizza On!!   :pizza:

I use an inexpensive sea salt. I don't think it makes much difference if measuring by %. I don't every use iodized, so that might make a difference. I'm not sure.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Tricia1quinn on December 14, 2015, 08:32:52 AM
Great - got it. I have a really good bread book that has how to make your own starter. I am going to give it a whirl while I am waiting for the Italian starter. I want so badly to use my oven I can't wait any longer. The cart is done, I found this site and have all the info - time to start the process. Thank you so much for all your help!! My hope is Sunday. I may just whip up some cold fermentation NY dough this week. I can't wait.

I have a funny story. I had a terra cotta oven that cracked during our move last year. When I fired up that oven the first time - I synged my bangs and eye lashes off!!!! The oven had no flue so everything vented through the door. I couldn't understand the bad smell - thought there was a coating on the inside - lol. It was my hair!!! Hopefully I will not have any mishaps like that with my Pizza Party - lol   ::) Pizza on!!   :pizza:
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: wasitim on December 15, 2015, 08:17:54 AM
Brand new to the forum, brand new to our FGM wood fired oven. Ran a couple of Papa Ginos chain restaurants 15 years ago so lots of practice in all aspects of pizza making.

Sunday was the first fire of the new oven for pizza and used Craig's chart to make a 5 hour dough.

500g KABF                100%
310g water                62%
2.1g ADY         .42% 
10g salt         2%

Dough was beautiful to work with. I never make dough and use the same day, but this was still a nice dough in 5 hours. Had to slow it down in the fridge a bit towards hour 4 as it was getting a bit out of hand but it might have been warmer in the kitchen than I thought.

Here's a couple shots of the oven and final product.

Love this forum and the absolute nuttiness you folks have for pizza.



Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 15, 2015, 08:31:32 AM
Brand new to the forum, brand new to our FGM wood fired oven. Ran a couple of Papa Ginos chain restaurants 15 years ago so lots of practice in all aspects of pizza making.

Sunday was the first fire of the new oven for pizza and used Craig's chart to make a 5 hour dough.

500g KABF                100%
310g water                62%
2.1g ADY         .42% 
10g salt         2%

Dough was beautiful to work with. I never make dough and use the same day, but this was still a nice dough in 5 hours. Had to slow it down in the fridge a bit towards hour 4 as it was getting a bit out of hand but it might have been warmer in the kitchen than I thought.

Here's a couple shots of the oven and final product.

Love this forum and the absolute nuttiness you folks have for pizza.


Looking good.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Pete-zza on December 15, 2015, 08:36:55 AM
Brand new to the forum, brand new to our FGM wood fired oven. Ran a couple of Papa Ginos chain restaurants 15 years ago so lots of practice in all aspects of pizza making.
wasitim,

Nice looking pizza.

In case you are interested, there is a Papa Gino's clone thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8167.msg70317#msg70317 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8167.msg70317#msg70317). However, I don't know if you would be able to use your FGM oven to bake a PG style pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: George_M on December 16, 2015, 03:22:14 PM
Hi Craig,
Today i made pizza and i tried your formula.I don't have wood oven but it was the best dough ever!
But i tried also another method on baking.
I put the pizza on a pan and i heat it for 30min.
Then i i put the pizza on it,(not in the pan) with my pizza peel and i baked it at grill option.
Pizza was amazing!
It was like wood oven..crispy and soft inside.
I made 8 pizzas!!!
But i didn't photo the results  >:( >:(
Thanks for your formula!!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 16, 2015, 03:31:46 PM
Good to hear. Glad you liked it.

CL
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Tricia1quinn on December 17, 2015, 08:51:03 AM
Hi Wasitim - welcome to the forum. Your oven and pizzas looks awesome!! Thank you for posting your weights for flour, water, etc. Quick question - what temp and how long did you ferment? And assuming 250 gm balls - how many balls did you get? Thanks!! Pizza On!!   :pizza:
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: wasitim on December 18, 2015, 10:57:58 AM
Hi Wasitim - welcome to the forum. Your oven and pizzas looks awesome!! Thank you for posting your weights for flour, water, etc. Quick question - what temp and how long did you ferment? And assuming 250 gm balls - how many balls did you get? Thanks!! Pizza On!!   :pizza:

Hi Tricia,

Dough fermented ~6 hours with a brief jump in the fridge to slow it down. Oven floor was over 600F. My IR thermometer is old and shows ERR around 600. Just got a new Fluke that goes to 1200F. I didn't write the ball size down now that I look I my notes damn it. I think they were around 300g. Pizzas were done in about 90 seconds or so. Started a bit too close to the fire and didn't have a real brush to clean the floor off so they were a bit more charred on bottom than would have liked.

Thanks all for the welcome!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: wasitim on December 18, 2015, 11:02:49 AM
wasitim,

Nice looking pizza.

In case you are interested, there is a Papa Gino's clone thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8167.msg70317#msg70317 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8167.msg70317#msg70317). However, I don't know if you would be able to use your FGM oven to bake a PG style pizza.

Peter

Hey Pete,

Thanks. Yeah, I've read some of that thread but need to revisit. I forget the exact recipe book measurements for Papas so I'm going to hit up a buddy and will post. I've always liked their pizzas back in the 90s early 00s. They've changed a bit nowadays but still a decent chain pie when there's a good cook.

Wondering why you think the WFO wouldn't give a good PG pie?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Pete-zza on December 18, 2015, 11:38:02 AM
Hey Pete,

Thanks. Yeah, I've read some of that thread but need to revisit. I forget the exact recipe book measurements for Papas so I'm going to hit up a buddy and will post. I've always liked their pizzas back in the 90s early 00s. They've changed a bit nowadays but still a decent chain pie when there's a good cook.

Wondering why you think the WFO wouldn't give a good PG pie?
Tim,

It seemed to me that when I had PG pizzas, the crusts were on the light side, and to get them to look that way the oven temperatures couldn't be too high. As an example of one PG pizza I had, see Reply 98 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8167.msg75762#msg75762 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8167.msg75762#msg75762). That is the look I tried to get out of my standard home oven. As you can see from the photo of the PG pizza, there is nothing rustic about it in terms of irregular rim or charring or blistering. One of our members, scott r, mentioned seeing PG oven temperatures at about 450 degrees F, at Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg70556.html#msg70556 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8167.msg70556.html#msg70556). I have seen members make the NY style in their WFOs and they usually have a different appearance in my opinion than the classic NYC pizzas baked in deck ovens. The ones baked in coal-fired ovens and wood fired ovens in NYC generally have a more rustic appearance. Of course, a PG type of pizza baked in your WFO should still taste good even if it has a different look.

If you are able to find information relating to the PG dough and pizzas, you might want to post it at the PG clone thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8167.msg70317#msg70317 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8167.msg70317#msg70317) so as not to send this thread off in a new direction. I am always interested in learning whether my attempts at reverse engineering and cloning pizzas of others, like PG, are in the ballpark. BTW, I agree with you that the PG pizzas are very good for a chain.

Peter
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: George_M on December 19, 2015, 08:26:44 AM
Good to hear. Glad you liked it.

CL
I made a calzone and a pizza today and i took photos  :P
Just perfect!!!

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Tricia1quinn on December 21, 2015, 02:13:52 PM
Looks delicious!! Did the bacon cook through in the calzone? Was there a lot of fat from the bacon?? Looks like bacon. Could be panchetta...
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: George_M on December 22, 2015, 11:21:39 AM
Yes,it was amazing!Like cooked in wood oven.The dough was crispy outside and soft inside.This method is the best for me until make my wood oven.
It is bacon and cooked with no problem because the temperature is high.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Tricia1quinn on December 22, 2015, 04:22:16 PM
Got it - thank you!! :chef:
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: AltaCaliforniaPizza on December 22, 2015, 07:24:30 PM
Thanks for your dough recipe and bulk ferment instructions, Mr. Tx Craig. I've been doing a 62.5, 3, .1 idy with your mixing instructions and bulk ferment approach. It's been the best homemade dough I've made. And, I just made three red bags a Caputo worth of dough, as per your method, for the 23-25 dinners. Got a white cheddar, baby asparagus, basil aoili pie that I think'll rock atop the Naploletana dough.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: George_M on January 30, 2016, 12:49:56 PM
Looking good.
Craig,
In your first post of the recipe,you wrote 1.3% yeast.
Is it too much?Need to reduce it?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 30, 2016, 01:11:06 PM
Craig,
In your first post of the recipe,you wrote 1.3% yeast.
Is it too much?Need to reduce it?

The opposite actually; for me anyways. You have to figure out what works best for you. It's unlikely it will be exactly what I or anyone else does.  I think my culture is less active than it used to be, and I've also found I like a bit more fermentation. Nowadays, I'm using 1.7% in the summer and 1.9% in the winter.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 30, 2016, 01:22:09 PM
To be sure you understand what I'm saying, I'm talking about a sourdough culture - not baker's yeast (IDY, ADY, or CY).

For me, 1.7% culture ~ 0.025% ADY. This for 48 hours at about 64F. Your formula was 0.42% IDY, so yes, I'm using a lot less yeast than you did. Your formula is about [the equivalent of] 17X more yeast than I use.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: George_M on January 30, 2016, 01:26:31 PM
I used dry yeast not sourdough culture,so i need to use less than 1.3%?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 30, 2016, 01:27:51 PM
Yes A LOT LESS.

This may help: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg355933#msg355933
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: George_M on January 30, 2016, 01:30:51 PM
Thanks Craig!
I will try in my next batch.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: George_M on February 01, 2016, 08:22:25 AM
Hi Craig,
Please, can you explain me the chart to avoid mistakes?
Thanks
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 01, 2016, 09:25:43 AM
Hi Craig,
Please, can you explain me the chart to avoid mistakes?
Thanks

Sure, start with your fermentation temperature. In this example, assume it's 65F/18.3C. Find the row in the table labeled 65F (18.3C) go to the right across the row until you find your desired fermentation time. In this example, assume it's 48 hours. There is a 47 which is pretty pretty close, so I'd use that. Now follow that column up to the top and it will tell you how much yeast to use. In this example, it's 0.021%. If you fermentation time is between two numbers on a row, you can interpolate or split the difference.

Keep in mind that this is just a starting place and that you will likely need to experiment to get things just how you want it. There are literally dozens of variables that can change the outcome; in some cases significantly. Most of the time, however it will get you pretty close.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 01, 2016, 09:28:29 AM
There are some more detailed instructions posted in the thread with the sourdough table:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.msg230690#msg230690

The baker's yeast table works the same way.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: George_M on February 01, 2016, 10:08:15 AM
Nice Craig!
Thank you for your help!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Dippenwood on February 05, 2016, 12:03:18 AM
Craig, I'm curious about your ischia culture...how wet or stiff is it? And do you feed it whole wheat or white flour? At such low amounts I doubt it matters either way, I'm curious nonetheless. Thanks for sharing by the way...
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 05, 2016, 09:41:18 AM
Craig, I'm curious about your ischia culture...how wet or stiff is it? And do you feed it whole wheat or white flour? At such low amounts I doubt it matters either way, I'm curious nonetheless. Thanks for sharing by the way...

It's about the consistency of a thick batter. I don't ever measure when I feed it (generally with King Arthur All Purpose).
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: live4u on February 19, 2016, 08:48:46 PM
Craige
I followed the procedure you mentioned with the %. I used caputo pizzeria flour. I see some raise in the dough after 24 hours and the dough is little sticky and hard to handle. I had to apply dry flour on my hand while balling. The dough was very soft, not easy to ball and some how I managed to ball it.  When I did KAPF, balling as was easy as the dough was not too soft but 00 flour is too soft. Is this expected?

Thanks
Ram
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 19, 2016, 11:18:41 PM
It will be a little tacky when balling but not difficult to handle. AOTBE, KABF would likely be easier to handle.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: live4u on February 19, 2016, 11:33:48 PM
It will be a little tacky when balling but not difficult to handle. AOTBE, KABF would likely be easier to handle.
Thanks. It was lot softer than KABF :) So what I saw is correct then. right?

Also, my dough rose in first 24 hrs (guess the temp was between 65-70. Dont have exact control on temps yet). I balled after bulk rise. Thinking of doing the pizza after 18 hrs from now :)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 20, 2016, 08:20:11 AM
Thanks. It was lot softer than KABF :) So what I saw is correct then. right?

It sounds like your dough was harder to work with than mine. I have no difficulty balling though it may be just that I'm more used to working with a softer dough.

"Correct" is relative. What works for you is "correct."
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: George_M on April 04, 2016, 09:42:39 AM
Sure, start with your fermentation temperature. In this example, assume it's 65F/18.3C. Find the row in the table labeled 65F (18.3C) go to the right across the row until you find your desired fermentation time. In this example, assume it's 48 hours. There is a 47 which is pretty pretty close, so I'd use that. Now follow that column up to the top and it will tell you how much yeast to use. In this example, it's 0.021%. If you fermentation time is between two numbers on a row, you can interpolate or split the difference.

Keep in mind that this is just a starting place and that you will likely need to experiment to get things just how you want it. There are literally dozens of variables that can change the outcome; in some cases significantly. Most of the time, however it will get you pretty close.
Hi Craig,
I will make dough today.
Just need to know if i understand correct.
Let's say the room temperature will be 17.8C.
I will make 500gr dough
My fermentation time will be 26 hours.
I will use instand dry yeast.
So i need 0,040% IDY equal to 0.2 gramms ?Is it correct?

The other parts will be
62,5% water
3% or less salt

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 04, 2016, 09:48:33 AM
Yes, that where I'd start. I've done similar formulations and it has worked pretty well. There are a lot of variables that are hard to control however; keep an eye on it over the last 12 hours and adjust the temperature as needed (if needed).

With tiny amounts of IDY like that, I like to dissolve it into the water to be sure I get an even distribution.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: George_M on April 04, 2016, 09:54:08 AM
Yes,i do the same.I will dissolve it in the water first.
As for the temperature,you mean to avoid go down and to keep it in the prefered temperature?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 04, 2016, 10:04:19 AM
With respect to temperature, start looking at the dough 12 hours out, and it it look like it's not progressing fast enough, warm it gently for 30 minutes or so in the oven at ~90F (or if progressing too fast, a similar amount of time in the fridge). Small changes earlier are much better than big changes later.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: George_M on April 04, 2016, 12:11:33 PM
The dough need to be the double size,if not i will warm it.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 04, 2016, 12:40:05 PM
If you are seeing little bubbles forming by 12 hours, you will probably be in good shape.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 04, 2016, 12:41:03 PM
And don't be discouraged if the first attempt isn't perfect - or even bad. It may take a couple rounds to testing and tweaking.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: George_M on April 04, 2016, 01:37:58 PM
Preperation finished!
800gr Caputo.
I add 1,3g IDY  for 16.1C/12hours fermentation.
Tomorrow the result ;D
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: George_M on April 05, 2016, 10:11:02 AM
Some photos.
The first photos was taken yesterday and the rest are from today.

http://i.imgur.com/A2yTceR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/G0T9HPv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZTHO6hp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EAATv9q.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/IchzFcZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fG6fSWH.jpg

I covered the balls and i will leave it to rest until 9 o'clock in room temperature,not in the fridge.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: George_M on April 09, 2016, 11:18:21 AM
Hi Craig,
The pizza dough was excellent!
Nice and crispy!
Thanks again!!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 09, 2016, 11:18:50 AM
Awesome! Glad to hear it.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: smtdev on April 12, 2016, 08:10:39 PM
Craig,

I want to thank you for posting this helpful guide. I've been making NP-ish dough for about four years and it's been okay, but I knew it could be better.

Typically I try to fast-track the rise: higher starter percentage and straight to ball. This time I followed your directions and did 24 hours bulk and 24(+) balled. Kind of crazy day and I didn't get to my bake until hours after anticipated. Tried to slow it with a couple sits in the fridge. When I finally was able to do the bake, I didn't have time to fire up the PP and just went with the BS. Anyway, the dough was a little sticky and my launches weren't great.

All of that however, and the dough was near spot on. Great crumb, crisp and chewy. Sorry no photos - the launching issues made for less than photo-worthy pies. I'm really optimistic that if I can plan a little better that it will all come together.

Thanks again,
Steve
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 12, 2016, 08:52:33 PM
Thank you for letting me know. Stick with it. Everything will come together.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Dippenwood on April 12, 2016, 10:01:01 PM
Craig, when you stretch the dough balls into discs, do you have noticeable bubbles on the skin?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 13, 2016, 10:07:54 AM
Craig, when you stretch the dough balls into discs, do you have noticeable bubbles on the skin?

Yes. If it's properly fermented, they aren't to the point where the are forming big bubbles in the rim, however I always see a good number of bubbles in the skin.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: sam93 on April 17, 2016, 07:39:02 AM
Craig when using more starter how do you find this effects your dough? I've looked at some other sorces and they use a lot more starter?
I used your ratios and found that When fermenting for the 2nd 24 hours in tubs my dough is rising so much
It's oozing out the lids... What could this be from?
Sorry very new to this whole thing :)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 17, 2016, 08:13:14 AM
Using more starter is like using more yeast in that the dough will rise faster. Flavor, texture, digestibility, the way the dough bakes, etc. will be different though.

One thing about pizza making, what works well for one person often doesn't work well for someone else. There are just too many variables that are in many cases hard to identify, let alone control. Using a culture takes the difficulty of recreating someone else's work up to a whole new level because no two cultures behave exactly the same. Many behave similarly, but some are very different - some slower and some faster. You may find that you need to use a bit more culture. I actually use 1.7% - 2.0% depending on the temperature in my house. I think my culture has slowed down with age. I wish there was a way to go back and edit my original post. When trying to duplicate someone's pizza (other than emergency type doughs - 99.9% of the pizza dough recipes on the internet or in cookbooks are emergency doughs), you should expect to need to do several to many rounds of testing and tweaking to get it to work in your unique situation.

As for the oozing and running, again, there are all sorts of factors from the way you work the dough, to the way you ball it, to the flour you used, to the nature of your culture, and so on. You might try doing the bulk for 36 hours and only have the dough in balls for the last 12. The longer the dough is in balls the more it will relax.

Pictures help a lot in trying to help people solve problems.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: koo on April 17, 2016, 07:41:51 PM
Hi All,

What do you guys use to keep the dough at a constant temperature, i.e. 65F. I was thinking of getting a wine cooler.  ;)

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: gtsum2 on April 17, 2016, 07:49:27 PM
Tagged
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 17, 2016, 08:04:31 PM
Hi All,

What do you guys use to keep the dough at a constant temperature, i.e. 65F. I was thinking of getting a wine cooler.  ;)

Thanks in advance!

This is how I do it: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18509.msg179991.html#msg179991
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: koo on April 18, 2016, 05:49:03 AM
Hi Craig,

Thank you for the info. I don't have a cooler but I guess I could get one. I checked out Amazone and noticed they have thermoelectric ones, which are cooler/warmers, although I'm not sure you can regulate the temperature. As per my initial post, I was also thinking of a wine cooler, I noticed this one at Costco: http://www.costco.com/Wine-Enthusiast-Silent-18-Bottle-Dual-Zone-Touchscreen-Wine-Cooler-ETL-Approved.product.100102202.html. It has Dual Zone, so I guess I can keep wine in one section and use the other for dough, if the whole idea of using a wine cooler is even feasible; what do you think? One possible issue could be that the wine cooler ranges from 46-66įF, and states that the Maximum Ambient Temperature is 77įF. In saying that, where I live (S. California), I'm at 76įF right now (3am) inside the house and around 82įF during the day. So I guess that will raise the temperature of the wine cooler to around where I need it.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: koo on April 19, 2016, 10:03:21 PM
Any opinions on the last post on page 18?

Thanks.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 19, 2016, 10:18:24 PM
Wine cookers work great (assuming they work in the temperature range you want). I don't know how much space you need, however the one you posted might be a bit on the small side.

My wife would shoot me if I bought a wine cooler for dough else that's how I'd be doing it.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: koo on April 21, 2016, 10:05:46 PM
Thanks Craig,

I'm trying to justify it by getting the dual zone.  ;D
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: sam93 on April 24, 2016, 12:50:58 AM
Craig this is my dough at 24 hours bulk ferment using copy of sheet 1 on your formula sheet.
Fully active starter and caputo pizzeria flour. Has doubled in size at least...
(http://s31.postimg.org/5rvkznd07/image.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/5rvkznd07/)

(http://s31.postimg.org/o3dys24rb/image.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/o3dys24rb/)

Is this normal?


 
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 24, 2016, 01:47:54 PM
Craig this is my dough at 24 hours bulk ferment using copy of sheet 1 on your formula sheet.
Fully active starter and caputo pizzeria flour. Has doubled in size at least...
(http://s31.postimg.org/5rvkznd07/image.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/5rvkznd07/)

(http://s31.postimg.org/o3dys24rb/image.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/o3dys24rb/)

Is this normal?

What was the exact formula you used? Were you targeting 24 hours?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: sam93 on April 24, 2016, 11:35:24 PM
F 100% W 62% S 3% Y 2% (fully active culture)

24 bulk @ 70f
12 in balls @70f

Huge rise in bulk fermentation and crazy amount of air bubbles.
Dough wasn't elastic at all when making the pies. So much air in the dough that it would tear easily...
When cooked was very heavy and hardly any rise
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 25, 2016, 09:46:34 AM
F 100% W 62% S 3% Y 2% (fully active culture)

24 bulk @ 70f
12 in balls @70f

Huge rise in bulk fermentation and crazy amount of air bubbles.
Dough wasn't elastic at all when making the pies. So much air in the dough that it would tear easily...
When cooked was very heavy and hardly any rise

Sam,
How did you come up with 2% culture? The table predicts <1% for 36 hours at 70F. For 2% @ 70F, it predicts 28 hours, so your results are pretty close to what I would expect. It probably would have made great pizza if you had balled it sometime in the first 18 hours and used it at 24-28 hours.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Falcor on May 06, 2016, 10:13:34 AM
Craig,

I am getting back into making Neapolitan pizza--(just ordered a Pizza Party Pizzone this week)--and this thread has been a most valuable dough refresher course.

Thank you for the focused and comprehensive information you have graciously offered here!

Adam
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 06, 2016, 10:36:52 AM
Glad to hear it helped.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: carl333 on June 07, 2016, 12:32:32 PM
Craig, I see that your using your KA to solely incorporate the ingredients and then the stretch and folds take over. It this a more reliable way of reaching the optimum silky smooth stage as opposed to leaving the work for the KA to get you there?  Certainly for one thing, it sure saves a lot of wear and tear on the motor.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 07, 2016, 12:38:52 PM
With respect to NP, I use the mixer only because it's an easy way to get the ingredients well mixed. If you are going to ferment for 24 hours, that's really all you need to do. It doesn't need to be kneaded or S&F'd. The dough doesn't need to be smooth. I don't worry about it the way I used to. I usually let it rest for 10 minutes or so after mixing, do one set of stretch and folds, and then straight to bulk. 
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: carl333 on June 07, 2016, 12:50:06 PM
Trying to learn from the best!!  Am I perhaps looking at too old a post? What you have just said is a major time saver. I would have followed your instructions to the T. Any other changes to your recipe? 
I have forgotten what I have read in previous posts. Do you add DMP to your NP dough?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 07, 2016, 12:55:58 PM
Trying to learn from the best!!  Am I perhaps looking at too old a post? What you have just said is a major time saver. I would have followed your instructions to the T. Any other changes to your recipe?

I use more culture typically than I used to. I think my culture activity has dropped over the years. I use 1.7% in the summer and 1.9% in the winter. I've also lowered the salt to 2.8%. Following the procedure isn't bad, and there are things to be learned by following it, notwithstanding, there are a few things that I've found to be unnecessary.

What I suspect you will find is that neither how I did it then now how I do it now will work for you without some tweaks. There are too many variables that differ from person-to-person for anything other than emergency doughs to work as advertised without some iterations of experimenting and tweaking.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: carl333 on June 07, 2016, 01:08:29 PM
too many variables... your not kidding. I don't think I ever come close to replicating a dough using the same recipe from 1 day to the next!   At least we have a good starting point. Tks for posting.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 07, 2016, 01:32:34 PM
That's the purpose - a starting point.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: carl333 on June 07, 2016, 07:31:01 PM
What calculating tool do I use using a starter? I'd like to reduce the total dough amount in Craigs recipe.

edit. After some more reading, it appears that I should use the preferment pizza dough calculating tool. still stuck.

edit. I used % of total flour and 50% of total water.=8.64gr of starter. I'm going for it!

under How would you like you preferment expressed? Percentage of total flour?
How do I calculate my preferment's % of total water?

dough weight=275 gr
4 balls
62.5% hyd
3% salt
1.3% preferment Ischia

tks
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: carl333 on June 07, 2016, 10:25:44 PM
Craig, After some thought, I'm curious as to why you have decided to go with a 48 hr ferment as opposed to say a 24 hour ferment.Sorry, rookie question here but learning.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: parallei on June 07, 2016, 10:30:00 PM

under How would you like you preferment expressed? Percentage of total flour?

Folks use different methods.  That said, I use Craig's Starter Model and it is based on % Of Flour

Here:  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0 (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0)



How do I calculate my preferment's % of total water?

Just like it says in the note on the Preferment Calculator where you enter it.  It is equal to the weight of water divided by total weight of preferment times 100.  So, if the stater you feed had 70g of water and 100g of flour it would be:

(70/170)*100 = 47% = preferment's % of total water

I keep it simple and use a 100% Hydration Ratio (HR) Starter (equal weights flour and water).  So, as an example, 80g of water + 80g of flour would be:

(80/160)*100 = 50% = preferment's % of total water

My starters are pretty much always 100% HR and, therefore, have a 50 % total water.

The preferment calculator accounts for the weight of water and weight of flour in the starter you add.  That is why it wants to know.



dough weight=275 gr
4 balls
62.5% hyd
3% salt
1.3% preferment Ischia

tks
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 07, 2016, 10:42:00 PM
Craig, After some thought, I'm curious as to why you have decided to go with a 48 hr ferment as opposed to say a 24 hour ferment.Sorry, rookie question here but learning.

It's just personal preference. I'm really confident in my 48 hour dough, and I like it a lot. That being said, I use 24 from time-to-time, for example, recently here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43129.0 There is nothing wrong with 24 hour room temp NP (with a culture or IDY).
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: MicheleR on June 07, 2016, 11:45:25 PM
I used to use IDY and pizzas were coming out pretty good, not much leoparding.
I tried King Arthur sourdough starter and followed you recipe. The only thing I did different, i fermented 24 h in bulk at 66 f, 24 h in balls in the fridge, and 24 h in balls in 66 f.
When I started preparing the pizza, I noticed a few things:
-before putting in the oven, the dough would rip really easily
-When I started cooking, I noticed that some pies did not cook well in the middle, the dough was still raw (could this be bc I just installed the chauflector?)
- some were burning easily at the bottom
 
I was very happy with the leoparding..but thats it really.

What do you think? Do I need a mix of sourdough starter and IDY? or should I just stick to IDY?

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 08, 2016, 01:07:19 AM
After 72 hours with sourdough, I'm not surprised your dough is getting weak. You might try dialing it back to 48 and see how it works.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: carl333 on June 08, 2016, 08:56:09 AM
It's just personal preference. I'm really confident in my 48 hour dough, and I like it a lot. That being said, I use 24 from time-to-time, for example, recently here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43129.0 There is nothing wrong with 24 hour room temp NP (with a culture or IDY).

Tks for your response. Nice to know the option is there without any discernible difference. Could I say that?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 08, 2016, 11:34:42 AM
Tks for your response. Nice to know the option is there without any discernible difference. Could I say that?

I don't know. You would have to try both and see if there is a difference for you. For me, 48 is enough better to warrant the extra time and effort in most cases. There isn't much in pizza that is as black and white as you are trying to make it.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: dbarneschi on June 08, 2016, 11:55:42 AM
I use more culture typically than I used to. I think my culture activity has dropped over the years. I use 1.7% in the summer and 1.9% in the winter. I've also lowered the salt to 2.8%. Following the procedure isn't bad, and there are things to be learned by following it, notwithstanding, there are a few things that I've found to be unnecessary.

What I suspect you will find is that neither how I did it then now how I do it now will work for you without some tweaks. There are too many variables that differ from person-to-person for anything other than emergency doughs to work as advertised without some iterations of experimenting and tweaking.
Craig, I'm curious as to why you're upped your percentage of SD starter from 1.3% to 1.7% (summer) or 1.9% (winter) and decided to ferment cooler (~60F now compared to ~64F previously). What does this do to the fermentation process and what effects does it have on the resulting crust?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: carl333 on June 08, 2016, 12:00:34 PM
I'm starting to appreciate that what works for 1 may not work for another. But from a Pizzaiolo as yourself, your methods and dough management procedures are noting to be shunned at.  :)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 08, 2016, 12:33:58 PM
Craig, I'm curious as to why you're upped your percentage of SD starter from 1.3% to 1.7% (summer) or 1.9% (winter) and decided to ferment cooler (~60F now compared to ~64F previously). What does this do to the fermentation process and what effects does it have on the resulting crust?

61F is easier for me to maintain than 64F, and I think my culture has lost some activity over the years. I also have been moving towards a bit more fermented dough. The overall impact to the pizza of all of this is fairly small.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: carl333 on June 08, 2016, 01:09:41 PM


When I activated my started from flake form, I followed the instructions. Add 2 tablespoons of this 4 tablespoons of this, then increase to 1/2 cup of this 1 cup of that...  It wasn't by weight so when my started was alive and full of pop, I had my idea what % of water was. I do like your idea of keeping it simple for the sake of completing the table correctly. Equal amounts in weight of water and flour. I did experiment with toggling the % of water in the table from 50 to 100% and I found little difference in the actual ingredient list at the end. So little difference that I wonder if the accuracy of the total % of water in your starter is really a factor.

Someone please do correct me if I am wrong.   
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: parallei on June 08, 2016, 02:07:23 PM
I did experiment with toggling the % of water in the table from 50 to 100% and I found little difference in the actual ingredient list at the end. So little difference that I wonder if the accuracy of the total % of water in your starter is really a factor.

Someone please do correct me if I am wrong.

It will not make an appreciable difference for small batches of dough.  That said, now you know how to calculate it.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: hugorm on June 12, 2016, 06:32:23 PM
Baked this pie from your recipie today 18hr bulk 48hr at 18C +3hr at room temp (could have used another hr or two in RT but I was running out of time! Thanks for sharing your knowledge TXCraig
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 12, 2016, 06:47:30 PM
Very nice!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: twopies on June 13, 2016, 06:07:42 PM
Hi Craig,  i have starter that i have been feeding for the past few weeks.  just about ready to use it.  when i feed it , it doubles within 3-4 hours . after a few hours of it doubling it starts to go back down.    should i time it to use in my dough recipe when it doubles or can i use it any time during the course of the day ?  hope this question makes sense . thanks
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 13, 2016, 06:17:02 PM
Hi Craig,  i have starter that i have been feeding for the past few weeks.  just about ready to use it.  when i feed it , it doubles within 3-4 hours . after a few hours of it doubling it starts to go back down.    should i time it to use in my dough recipe when it doubles or can i use it any time during the course of the day ?  hope this question makes sense . thanks

More important than when, after feeding, you use it is that you do it the same way each time. This will help you get more consistent and predictable results. I like to use mine just as it starts to fall.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: twopies on June 13, 2016, 06:52:38 PM
thanks for the quick reply Craig !
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Lmfcg14 on June 15, 2016, 07:29:47 PM
This is incredible information! I have never done a bulk ferment and want to try it. How do you create an environment and know you are keeping the dough at 65 or 78F? Thanks!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 15, 2016, 07:58:42 PM
How do you create an environment and know you are keeping the dough at 65 or 78F? Thanks!

Here is how I do it: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18509.msg179991.html#msg179991

A wine cooler or a refrigerator or freezer with a PID controller work even better.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: stefan on July 03, 2016, 03:00:46 PM
Craig,

One question: I have a very active culture (doubles in about 4-5 hours after feeding 10g with 40g flour/40g water). But: the pies won't rise as I'd like them to  :o Picture is attached. Exactly the same procedure as you do (65įF, 24hrs bulk, 24 hrs balls, last 3-4 hrs room temperature, 1,5%-2% culture, 62,5% hydration).

I'm sure it's not because of the handling of the dough, i do make pretty decent pies with fresh yeast. Culture seems to be quite active too. Any recommendations where the mistake could be?

thanks!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 04, 2016, 08:55:25 PM
Your SD culture may be breaking down the gluten in the flour.

What flour are you using? How much has the dough risen from start to the time you open the balls?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Dippenwood on July 04, 2016, 10:20:41 PM
Eighth bake in my new bread stone fgm... Using the ischia and cooler method to ferment... Pretty happy with the results. Thanks, Craig, for all the advice from afar. This was my best result yet. We noticed the slightest tang in the crust, mainly as an aftertaste.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 05, 2016, 09:38:26 AM
Looking good!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: stefan on July 05, 2016, 04:38:51 PM
Your SD culture may be breaking down the gluten in the flour.

What flour are you using? How much has the dough risen from start to the time you open the balls?

I tried different mixtures, mostly 50/50 Caputo red/Caputo Manitoba or only Caputo red. I don't think that it's the 'breaking down' problem, I alredy had that once when I fermented the dough at about 80F for something like 36 hours - the dough just flowed away back then. Too hot for a too long time. But this time, the dough was still strong and good to work with. It almost didn't rise at all, just flattened a little bit. I could only notice some bubbles inside when opening the pies.

To me it just seems like it's underfermented, but the culture seems to be quite active after feeding, so it's hard to believe that there's no maturation in 48hrs .. The day when the dough just flowed and was way too soft the culture seemed to be very active too - it literally destroyed the dough!

Thanks!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 05, 2016, 06:00:24 PM
Try using more culture.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Dippenwood on July 11, 2016, 11:12:23 PM
Craig, I've read and referenced this thread many times, thank you so much.... Can you overlay your olfactory observations onto the process time frame? In other words, at what point do you begun to smell your culture in the dough? At the end of the bulk ferment stage? Closer to the end of the ball stage? How about the smell relative to a fully active culture on the counter? Just curious
Thx
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: raphaels on July 12, 2016, 05:56:06 AM
Hi Craig,

I really enjoy this threat. I was reading backwards and I found your post here regarding a 24 hours fermentation: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43129.0

I tried to use the fermentation predictive model but I don't come up with the same numbers if you could explain why?

With 7.5% SD at 61F it gives 38 hours. You did it for 12 hours. Then you increase the temperature to 65-70F for 12 hours, but according to the model, it gives 18-27 hours, given you ve done 12 before, it gives 6-15 hours left to do at this temperature. Am I using the model wrong?

Thank you..
Raphael
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 12, 2016, 11:11:02 AM
The first chart below is a literal reading of the post you referenced applies to the chart. The second is how I came up with 7.5%.

In the post you referenced, I wrote:

12 hours bulk at 61F + 12 hours in balls at 65-70F.

Let's assume that the 65-70F range rounds up to an average of 68F; the way you use the chart is to run the fermentation schedule backwards. That is, find 12 hours at 68F and start there. You can see it's just to the right of 13 hours on the chart on the chart. You then go straight up until you hit the 61F row and make note of the time. In this case, it's just to the right of 23 hours, so call it 22 hours. To that, you add the amount of time you want at 61F which in this case is 12 hours. 22 hours + 12 hours = 34 hours. Next, slide left across the 61F row until you hit 34 hours. Now just go straight up until you hit the percent. In this case, it's 10%. That would be a very straightforward reading of my post and applying it to the chart.

Experience however plays a huge role in SD. The chart provides a good starting point or educated guess, but you will get the most value out of it once you really start to understand how your culture performs in the way you use it. Even if the model controlled for things like hydration and salt%, there would still be a large amount of variability in sourdough because each culture is different and each person has their own way of feeding and time of use relative to peak activity.  That's why I constantly remind people that the better you are at using the culture at the same level of activity each time, the more consistent and predictable your results should be.

In my case, because of the way I do things and because I prefer to speed things up towards the end if necessary rather than try to slow things down, I often error on the side of less culture initially. In this case, I knew that my final 12 hours would be between 65-70F, and my call, based on experience, was it would behave like it was a bit higher than the average of 67.5/68F, so I used 69F, going up the chart from 12h @ 69F to the 61F row, I get 23 hours. Adding 12 to that, I get 35 hours, but rather than interpolate between 34 and 38 hours, I rounded up to 38 hours which gives me 7.5%. My memory is that the dough could have been a bit more fermented, and next time, I'd make a correction and probably go up to 8.5% or 9%.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: raphaels on July 13, 2016, 04:58:08 AM
Hi Craig,

I literrally spent 2 hours reading your comment and trying to understand with the chart and finally I had my eureka moment  :-D

I am wondering if anyone else had trouble with the chart or if it is just me...

Then my next question is, for a 24 hours fermentation, whatever the temperatures and % SD are, you would always split half bulk half balled? Or you could do 20 hours bulk and 4 hours balled? What does it depend on? Temperature? And when do you know the dough balls are fermented and ready?

Thank you
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 13, 2016, 07:32:59 AM
Then my next question is, for a 24 hours fermentation, whatever the temperatures and % SD are, you would always split half bulk half balled? Or you could do 20 hours bulk and 4 hours balled? What does it depend on? Temperature? And when do you know the dough balls are fermented and ready?

For me, it's more about how the dough handles. The longer it is in balls, the more relaxed and less elastic it will be. I've largely gone away from 24 hours in balls. I like the way 12 hours handles.

I go by the look of the ball to know when it's ready.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: raphaels on July 13, 2016, 08:18:45 AM
For me, it's more about how the dough handles. The longer it is in balls, the more relaxed and less elastic it will be. I've largely gone away from 24 hours in balls. I like the way 12 hours handles.

I go by the look of the ball to know when it's ready.
How does it look like in your case?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 13, 2016, 09:43:40 AM
How does it look like in your case?

Like it's ready  ;D

Seriously though, I think it may be something everyone has to figure out for themselves. Probably the best I can tell you is that the dough is somewhere between ~ 1.8X and 2.2X the original ball volume if balled when there is very little rise.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: raphaels on July 13, 2016, 09:53:42 AM
Hah ok 😈
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: raphaels on July 17, 2016, 06:05:34 AM
Hi all,

Just have a basic question today.. As I don't think I am actually making the dough properly..

In your recipe for example, that calls for 1.3KG of flour (approx), this include the flour on the work surface after all the ingredients are incorporated together? (I am kneading by hand).

I find my dough really sticky, at 62% hydration. At some point it stop being sticky, but then if i rest it for 5min and i knead again, it will become sticky again... so I end up adding more flour than I initially started with, is it normal? Or should I just mix 80% of the flour and keep the rest for the work surface as I am kneading?

I also find my dough creating a crust on the surface.. I read somewhere it is because there is too much flour is it possible?

Thank you
Raphael
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: florian on October 07, 2016, 11:41:58 AM
Thanks for providing all this guidance gentlemen! Craig you like to use abbreviations for the ingredients! Are this defined somewhere? In particular when you refer to some of the flour you have been using I have no idea what you are talking about ;-)

So it sounds like the Caputo Pizza/blue is standard. Some people are trying to use the Caputo Chef/red and I am going to use it initially since I still have a few more packages. Does the red simply have a lower amount of gluten resulting and a less stretchable dough? Can you add some semolina flour to fix this? Or is it the amount of water that needs to be adjusted for a different flour...

Craig you mentioned you like a KM something? Do you like it better than the Caputo Pizza?

Reading the thread people asked a thousand times is the sourdough started can be replaced by instant dry yeast and the answer is yes with somewhat degraded results. Would you say the difference is in flavor, consistence of the baked product or in ease of handling the raw dough?

Craig what makes the bags easier to use than the containers? The dough rise does not get destroyed taking it out of the bag?

I appreciate all the information you have provided here!

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Pete-zza on October 07, 2016, 01:41:04 PM
Craig you like to use abbreviations for the ingredients! Are this defined somewhere?
florian,

Maybe this will help:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20056.msg196875#msg196875

Peter
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 07, 2016, 03:35:29 PM
You may not even notice a difference between Pizzeria and Chef. I wouldn't tell you to change anything to start. Try it and make any tweaks that are necessary.

The main difference between SD and IDY is flavor.

I don't like the way the dough can stick a bit to the container during longer fermentations.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: carlossanchez on October 09, 2016, 08:56:51 PM
Hi Craig

This is a really useful thread. Thank you for your advice!

I have a couple of clarification questions in relation to the bulk fermentation:

1. After you have mixed the dough, do you let it rest at room temp for any period of time before refrigerating, or does it go straight in the fridge?
2. After phase 1 of bulk fermentation, say 24hrs,  do you ball the dough cold, or do you allow it to get back to room temp and then ball?
3. After balling the dough, does it go straight back in the fridge or do you leave it at room temp at all beforehand?

Cheers!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: florian on October 09, 2016, 10:47:01 PM
I second this, thanks for all the great tips and having the patience to answer all these questions :-)

I made pizzas with this dough tonight and they turned out pretty well. However two problems:

1) Dough was stretching very thin eventually causing holes baking on the stone. What a mess ;-) Used Caputo Chef with 62% hydration. The initial dough was not completely smooth going into bulk fermentation. Seems fairly sticky too me. What do you think might be the problem? Hydration, not kneading enough or bad technique?

2) Too much flower on the crust. Not sure if there is anything else but using less flour. Not sure if I could have handled the sticky dough with less.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 10, 2016, 01:03:48 AM
See below in red.

Hi Craig

This is a really useful thread. Thank you for your advice!

I have a couple of clarification questions in relation to the bulk fermentation:

1. After you have mixed the dough, do you let it rest at room temp for any period of time before refrigerating, or does it go straight in the fridge? I don't use the fridge. There is no rest at ambient temp. It goes straight to ferment at 62+/-2F
2. After phase 1 of bulk fermentation, say 24hrs,  do you ball the dough cold, or do you allow it to get back to room temp and then ball? I ball at the fermentation temp noted above.
3. After balling the dough, does it go straight back in the fridge or do you leave it at room temp at all beforehand? It goes straight back to the fermentation temp noted above.

Cheers!


I'm not a fan of using the fridge for fermentation. See here for more info: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41039.0
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: carlossanchez on October 10, 2016, 08:47:16 AM
Thanks, Craig. I'm in Melbourne, Australia, so it's Spring here and room temprature is hard to judge as the weather doesn't know what it's'doing - 26deg C (78f) and then 15C another (60F), so keen to get the temprature under control so I can have more consistent dough.

I suppose a second hand wine fridge should do the job in keeping dough at the temprature you suggest.

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 10, 2016, 09:10:19 AM
This is how I control fermentation temp: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18509.msg179991.html#msg179991
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Artisanpizzaco on October 10, 2016, 06:26:45 PM
Great information here.  I am trying to make traditional Neapolitan dough at an altitude of 5000 feet.  Does anyone have a great high altitude recipe?  Thanks
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: parallei on October 10, 2016, 06:45:53 PM
Great information here.  I am trying to make traditional Neapolitan dough at an altitude of 5000 feet.  Does anyone have a great high altitude recipe?  Thanks

I'm in Denver too and have been making NP doughs for years.  Don't worry about the altitude.  Just find an IDY or Sour Dough recipe and go for it.  Seriously, time, temp and dough handling are of WAY more concern.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: rcordova on December 16, 2016, 10:41:44 AM
My apologies in advance if this question has been asked and answered before, but can this dough or a modified version be used in a conventional oven @550 degrees?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 16, 2016, 10:57:28 AM
My apologies in advance if this question has been asked and answered before, but can this dough or a modified version be used in a conventional oven @550 degrees?

Sure, just swap the '00' flour for all-purpose or bread flour. Maybe add 1-3% oil.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: rcordova on December 16, 2016, 12:13:15 PM
Thank you for the quick reply.  Why swap the 00 flour?  Just curious.   Thanks again.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 16, 2016, 04:19:02 PM
Thank you for the quick reply.  Why swap the 00 flour?  Just curious.   Thanks again.

'00' flour is not malted so you are unlikely to get good browning at home oven temps. Alternatively, you could try '00' with some diastatic malt powder added, but I don't know how much to suggest and it comes in different strengths. Really, bread flour will make a fine pizza. I almost never use '00' anymore - rather I've been using unmalted AP flour (won't say malted barley or enzymes on the ingredient statement). I've never seen unmalted bread flour, or I'd use that if it was readily available and inexpensive.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: rcordova on December 16, 2016, 06:14:04 PM
Good deal.  Thank you.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Dippenwood on December 22, 2016, 10:25:53 PM
Craig, did you just say you don't use caputo 00 flour for your Neapolitan pizza anymore?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 22, 2016, 10:45:30 PM
Craig, did you just say you don't use caputo 00 flour for your Neapolitan pizza anymore?

I haven't used Caputo for a long time. I used GM Neapolitan for a while and then Sperry Organic Hygluten (which is about the same gluten as Caputo), and recently I've been using my grocery store brand AP flour which is not malted.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: italdream on December 23, 2016, 11:23:19 AM
 ::)
I used GM Neapolitan for a while and then Sperry Organic Hygluten (which is about the same gluten as Caputo), and recently I've been using my grocery store brand AP flour which is not malted.

Craig, any noticeable difference in your NP pies when using these flours as opposed to Caputo? Any benefit?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 23, 2016, 03:00:58 PM
::)
Craig, any noticeable difference in your NP pies when using these flours as opposed to Caputo? Any benefit?

Yes, there are definite noticeable differences in flavor and texture except between the Caputo and GMN; I find them almost completely indistinguishable. Flavorwise, I prefer the Sperry to either, and it's not much behind on texture. What interests me most right now is making the most of the ingredients I have readily available. I wouldn't be afraid to put my grocery store brand AP flour pizza up against any. It may not win, but I wouldn't be embarrassed either.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: italdream on December 25, 2016, 08:33:27 AM
Thank you very much Craig. It makes me want to try the Sperry in particular. Assuming that it would not be available at major chain supermarkets, I searched my local RD. It only has the Sperry Extra fancy Flour. No trace either of the GMN. On the other hand, they sell many other GM flours, all of them malted.

On the other hand, their Supremo Italiano Imported 00 Pizza Flour seems interesting. I have seen it mentioned around the forum but I can't see a Neapolitan-specific thread. Worth a try maybe.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: koo on March 19, 2017, 08:55:56 PM
Hi Craig,

Thank you for your original post! I wanted to let you know how I got on.

At step 5/6 the dough was too wet. I tried kneading it more than 20 or so times, thinking it would dry up to the same consistency described and shown in your pictures but it didn't. I ended up adding very small amounts of flour to acquire the same consistency, which was about 1 cup. If this is a factor, the humidity in my house is approx. 35%.

I did the bulk ferment for about 26 hours, as opposed to 24 hours. (I was out and could not get back in time). I kept it at 65F most of the time, say 95% of the time, fluctuating to 66/67F and sometimes going down to 64F. At the end of the bulk ferment, I got a few bubbles and hardly any rise, which I believe is what I should have got.

I started the fermentation of the dough balls at 65F and increased the temp to 78F after 14 hours and took them out of the proofing box approx. 10 hours later. The first two pictures are just after taking them out of the proofing box and the last one is obviously the result.

Thank's again for sharing your process!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 20, 2017, 09:05:59 AM
Looking good!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Rosina on April 10, 2017, 09:37:15 AM
I don't understand when you give measurements in percentages. What does this mean?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 10, 2017, 09:51:59 AM
I don't understand when you give measurements in percentages. What does this mean?

Mine, like most of the recipes you'll find on this website are given in "baker's percent." This is so that the recipe is easily scalable and tweakable.

Unless the formula tells you otherwise, the ingredient weights are stated as a percent of the flour weight. For example 3% salt means the weight of the salt equals 3% of the flour weight. If you use 1000g of flour, you would use 30g salt (1000 x 3%).
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 10, 2017, 09:54:50 AM
Rosina,

For additional information on baker's percents, see http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/bakers-percentage.html.

Peter
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 10, 2017, 09:56:57 AM
I'd also point out that almost everything here is done by weight, so a scale is pretty important. For most folks making pizza at home, a scale that weighs up to 2000g with 0.1g precision is generally sufficient. The cost is probably $25 or so. A jewelers scale that can weigh small quantities with 0.01g precision can be handy for measuring the yeast. They can be had for $15 or so.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: mustavaPie on April 10, 2017, 12:28:02 PM
Hey Craig,

After reading youre post I went all out to try youre recipe. I took some pics and made some notes and would appreciate any feedback you might have.

The receipe I used:

1000g Caputo
625g    water
30g      salt
19g Ischia culture

i followed youre steps to the T, and all seemed to going fine!

however i do have some reservations about my dough after bulk fermentation and after 24hrs after being balled. i have attached some pics and would greatly appreciate some feedback

Pictures
1) my Ischia starter
2) my dough before first rest
3) my dough after 10 min rest, still a bit rough
4) after another 10min looking smooth!
5) 250g dough balls
6) dough balls after 24hrs in a sealed container. they appear to flat right? any idea why this could be?
7) dough balls after 24hrs in a sealed container looking at an angle looking at the bottom of the dough ball. the small bubbles seem to me similar    to yours?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: mustavaPie on April 10, 2017, 12:37:07 PM
i cooked them using a Uuni2 as i don't have a WFO and this is how they turned out.

look forward to hearing your thoughts on where my dough went wrong or could be improved

thanks
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 10, 2017, 12:37:34 PM
Looking good. The dough looks a bit under-risen. You may need to tweak the temp and/or SD quantity a bit to get things just right. Everyone situation is a bit different.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: FranksPizza on April 13, 2017, 02:26:11 PM
Hi-

What percentages would you recommend if I use dry instant yeast found that comes in a small envelope?  I don't have a live sourdough mix, so I'm not sure exactly how much yeast to use to make NP pizza in my brick oven.

Thanks

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 13, 2017, 02:47:59 PM
There are two types of dry yeast - active and instant.

With instant, I substitute at 0.024%. This may or may not work for you based on a number of variables that are difficult to control. It should be close, but you may need to test and tweak the yeast quantity a few times to get it where it works best for you.

This table can help you find a good starting point for yeast amount given fermentation time and temp: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg355933#msg355933
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: DoouBall on April 26, 2017, 02:03:55 PM
Hey Craig, have you ever tried using your KA paddle attachment instead of the dough hook at the start of mixing, and if so, what were your results?

I've found that I can use your method with just 1 minute of mixing with paddle on speed 1, followed by 10 minute rest, followed by 2-3 sets of stretch folds with excellent results and a more tender pizza compared to the 5-8 minute mix with spiral hook.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 26, 2017, 02:31:51 PM
Hey Craig, have you ever tried using your KA paddle attachment instead of the dough hook at the start of mixing, and if so, what were your results?

I've found that I can use your method with just 1 minute of mixing with paddle on speed 1, followed by 10 minute rest, followed by 2-3 sets of stretch folds with excellent results and a more tender pizza compared to the 5-8 minute mix with spiral hook.

I have not, but I'll give it a try. Thanks.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: DoouBall on April 26, 2017, 08:02:00 PM
Craig, my process was adding all the water and salt to the mixer bowl and swishing around by hand until the salt dissolves. Then I added the starter and mixed with a spoon for a few seconds. Finally, I added all the flour at once and used the paddle attachment to bring it together. This part happened very quickly - 30-60 seconds. My thought was that the initial mixing + autolyze + stretch folds would be similar to the tartine method and result in a sufficiently developed gluten over the 48 hour rise. This worked very well and was both faster and easier, but I'll need to repeat it a couple more times to see which method produces a better end result.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Icelandr on April 26, 2017, 11:50:37 PM
Sorry to interject . .  . As I experiment with using autolysis, where in the procedure outlined does the dough autolyse?
I have in the past few years gone from cold ferment and a Poolish a la Tony G,  to 24 hour room temp, to autolysis of 2 to 14 hours and have, at this point, liked the rt with about 8-12 hours autolysis. I have found it makes a big difference in the extensibility of the dough when forming and a far more tender and flavourful crust on eating.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: DoouBall on April 27, 2017, 01:39:55 PM
Icelandr, in Craig's original method, there is no autolyse, there is only a rest period of 7-10 minutes after the dough comes out of the mixer and gets a few hand kneads. When I started using the paddle hook instead of the spiral, I felt that a rest period right after the initial mixing would help the lumpy mass absorb water and relax before I started the stretch folds

So I guess technically what I described is a rest period rather than autolyse. Are you using the flour+water only autolyse and have you found this to be much more effective? In my experience, with a very small amount of starter or yeast, it makes little difference. Thanks!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Icelandr on April 27, 2017, 02:00:18 PM
Originally I learned of Autolyse from gsans and Sauzer and tried it a couple of time a few years ago. Lately I decided to revisit the method - 100% water + 50% flour for a longer time before adding remaining ingredients. I have found it a big enhancement and will continue to use the method, but remember I am a relative newcomer compared to other members here. It is, I think, definitely worth a try to see if it makes a difference for you. My %'s of ingredients etc found in my posts


Cheers
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: DoouBall on April 27, 2017, 05:02:27 PM
Thanks for the suggestion - I might try it sometime in the future.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: quietdesperation on September 21, 2017, 06:23:09 PM
craig, I'm confused by the process in your op. why do you go to the trouble of bulk fermenting in a cooler and then moving to a 78F
as opposed to a much shorter rt ferment (as predicted by the model you published)?

thanks!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 21, 2017, 06:34:19 PM
craig, I'm confused by the process in your op. why do you go to the trouble of bulk fermenting in a cooler and then moving to a 78F
as opposed to a much shorter rt ferment (as predicted by the model you published)?

thanks!

The goal is 48 hours in the low-mid 60's. I'm simply saying that with SD there are a lot of variables that are hard to control and it doesn't always work that way. Sometimes I need to bring it out to ambient which is 76-78F to have it ready on time. The real key to long-fermented SD (like many things pizza) is experience - being able to look at the dough 12 hours out and know what you need to change and when, if anything, to have it ready on time.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: quietdesperation on September 21, 2017, 06:50:05 PM
thanks! so there's something superior about the dough characteristics with 48 hours in the low-mid 60s as opposed to 24 at room temp? or is it simply that the slower ferment provides more opportunity for intervention?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 21, 2017, 07:04:24 PM
For me, 48 hours (36 bulk + 12 in balls in wood dough box) is the sweet spot by pretty much any metric. That's not to say there aren't faster ways to make great pizza, but I do think it's worth it.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: quietdesperation on September 21, 2017, 07:21:21 PM
cool, thanks again for the guidance. unpacked the pp bollore today,  will try high heat, ny pizza a couple of times to get the hang of it but then it's down the neo rabbit hole!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: hotsawce on September 28, 2017, 01:33:10 PM
I'm curious, is that percentage of active culture just fed/refreshed starter or a levain?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 28, 2017, 05:18:28 PM
I'm curious, is that percentage of active culture just fed/refreshed starter or a levain?

Lou, the way I see it, it's somewhat similar to baker's yeast in that you can effectively use it as (1) direct method, or (2) indirect. I don't know exactly where you draw the line between the two, but you get the point - either you are developing substantially all the flavor in the final dough or the culture/levain/preferment/poolish/biga/etc. whatever you want to call it is contributing significant flavor.

I would call what I do a direct method. I keep and active culture in a mason jar that is fed and refreshed on a regular basis (always fed the morning I make dough and I make dough in the evening). The culture/starter I use in the dough comes straight from the mason jar with the culture. There isn't any intermediate step where I take the culture, make a levain or other preferment, and then use that in the dough.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: hotsawce on September 28, 2017, 06:35:39 PM
Craig,

That cleared up nearly every question I had. Thanks!

Lou, the way I see it, it's somewhat similar to baker's yeast in that you can effectively use it as (1) direct method, or (2) indirect. I don't know exactly where you draw the line between the two, but you get the point - either you are developing substantially all the flavor in the final dough or the culture/levain/preferment/poolish/biga/etc. whatever you want to call it is contributing significant flavor.

I would call what I do a direct method. I keep and active culture in a mason jar that is fed and refreshed on a regular basis (always fed the morning I make dough and I make dough in the evening). The culture/starter I use in the dough comes straight from the mason jar with the culture. There isn't any intermediate step where I take the culture, make a levain or other preferment, and then use that in the dough.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: mike2k84 on October 05, 2017, 11:43:13 AM
hey craig thx for everything. i followed your instructions. dont know if the rising is 2 much?! or my bowl is to small?!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 05, 2017, 12:23:53 PM
To my eye, that dough looks overfermented. That being said, as your pictures show, you can still make very good pizza with overfermented dough, and the flavor is often incredible.

There are so many variables, it's not a surprise that you get slightly different results from me. Some tweaking to the starter quantity (or temperature if that is an option) is often necessary.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: mike2k84 on October 06, 2017, 03:41:00 AM
the curious thing is in the first fermentation (bulk) almost no rising like in your instruction. shall i fermentate the balls only 12 hours?! or maybe in the refrigator?! i used the same temperature with the balls
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 06, 2017, 08:13:46 AM
the curious thing is in the first fermentation (bulk) almost no rising like in your instruction. shall i fermentate the balls only 12 hours?! or maybe in the refrigator?! i used the same temperature with the balls

You can try the refrigerator. In my experience it degrades quality in pretty much every way imaginable. If you can adjust your timing so that doing 12 hours (or whatever) finishes at the right time with the right fermentation, that's a good solution.

What is your fermentation temp? How are you managing the temperature?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: mike2k84 on October 07, 2017, 02:18:04 AM
thx. im using a wine cooler with 65F
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: hotsawce on December 04, 2017, 08:20:13 PM
Craig,

I'm interested in hearing what you think is happening with the wood dough box vs plastic? Is it removing water from the finished dough ball? If that's the case, why not use a dough that's not so highly hydrated in plastic?

I've not used a wooden dough box before so I can't really understand the dynamic but I'd like to know more about it.

For me, 48 hours (36 bulk + 12 in balls in wood dough box) is the sweet spot by pretty much any metric. That's not to say there aren't faster ways to make great pizza, but I do think it's worth it.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 04, 2017, 08:22:17 PM
Craig,

I'm interested in hearing what you think is happening with the wood dough box vs plastic? Is it removing water from the finished dough ball? If that's the case, why not use a dough that's not so highly hydrated in plastic?

I've not used a wooden dough box before so I can't really understand the dynamic but I'd like to know more about it.

It just removes a bit of water from the bottom of the ball. It lets me use near zero bench flour on the bottom of the pizza.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: hotsawce on December 05, 2017, 12:18:32 AM
Really interesting. Don't want to derail your thread, but this might be a good resource for those who've wanted to try the wooden dough trays.

I know the bottom of the tray is important (as it makes contact with the dough,) and I'm not sure how important it is the surrounding surfaces are wood, but I'm pretty certain Jim Lahey uses standard wood proofing boards (like the one's he uses at his bakery Sullivan Street) to store the pizza dough. Looks like they rest on the boards and he seals in cling wrap with a little bit of tape.

Pretty interesting workaround...I think it would accomplish much of the same thing. You can see here https://vimeo.com/14292233

I also recall a member simply slipping a wooden board into his regular dough tray - I'd imagine that works well, too.

It just removes a bit of water from the bottom of the ball. It lets me use near zero bench flour on the bottom of the pizza.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 05, 2017, 08:28:44 AM
Even using a ton of bench flour like he does, a lot less is going to stick to the dry-ish bottom of dough fermented on wood.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: hbrochs on December 05, 2017, 01:11:01 PM
Great thread, Craig, thanks.

Would like to see a pic of your wood dough box.

Thanks,

Howard
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 05, 2017, 03:13:18 PM
Great thread, Craig, thanks.

Would like to see a pic of your wood dough box.

Thanks,

Howard
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 05, 2017, 03:14:07 PM
Eight works well, but they can hold 10 if you pack them in.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: surgtech2006 on December 05, 2017, 05:27:05 PM

Very nice. Is that 3/4 pine? Craig, does the type of wood matter? (obviously not an MDF or particle board lol)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: hbrochs on December 05, 2017, 05:34:29 PM
The proofing boxes look great. They look too big for a fridge, so do you put them in the cooler basement?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 05, 2017, 07:22:03 PM
Very nice. Is that 3/4 pine? Craig, does the type of wood matter? (obviously not an MDF or particle board lol)

Yes, they are. I think poplar is a better choice, but it's considerably more expensive. Pine is thirstier. 12 hours is about the max I can go in balls before the bottoms get too dry.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 05, 2017, 07:22:48 PM
The proofing boxes look great. They look too big for a fridge, so do you put them in the cooler basement?

I have a 120qt cooler they fit in along with an ice block.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: steveyruss on January 12, 2018, 09:27:02 AM
Thanks for posting this recipe. I'm going to try to replicate this tomorrow. However, I only have instant dry yeast available, what sort of amount would be needed? many thanks again.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 12, 2018, 09:59:04 AM
Thanks for posting this recipe. I'm going to try to replicate this tomorrow. However, I only have instant dry yeast available, what sort of amount would be needed? many thanks again.

When I make this with IDY, I use 0.024%.

This table is handy for converting sourdough to baker's yeast of for finding a starting point with a new recipe: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg511590#msg511590
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: jizza23 on January 21, 2018, 04:04:44 PM
Lou, the way I see it, it's somewhat similar to baker's yeast in that you can effectively use it as (1) direct method, or (2) indirect. I don't know exactly where you draw the line between the two, but you get the point - either you are developing substantially all the flavor in the final dough or the culture/levain/preferment/poolish/biga/etc. whatever you want to call it is contributing significant flavor.

I would call what I do a direct method. I keep and active culture in a mason jar that is fed and refreshed on a regular basis (always fed the morning I make dough and I make dough in the evening). The culture/starter I use in the dough comes straight from the mason jar with the culture. There isn't any intermediate step where I take the culture, make a levain or other preferment, and then use that in the dough.
Hey Craig

Quick question. Tried a natural ferment today. 14hr bulk, 12 balls, and the rise isn't looking good, and the dough is really heavy and dense feeling (vs light, airy and fluffy). I used 4% starter (40g on 1000g Caputo).

My question: does it screw things up if your starter uses different flour than your pizza? My sourdough starter is crazy healthy, and going on 3 years now. But it uses wheat/bread flour at 100% hydration, not Caputo. I put a very active 40g in this pizza batch and have essentially no rise after 26 hours at 70 degrees (first bulk then balls).

I made sourdough with this same starter 2 days ago with a perfect rise, but that was the same flour as in the starter. Is that my issue?

I know you switched flours recently, did you switch the flours in your isicha starter too?

Thanks
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 21, 2018, 09:18:29 PM
I don't know the answer to that question. If it was straight white flour, I would say no it doesn't matter, but maybe the wheat makes a difference. I feed mine KAAP, and I never use KAAP for NP.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 21, 2018, 09:20:44 PM
Lou (hotsawce) was having similar trroubles: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49654.msg503195#msg503195

It might be worth reading his posts.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: bifi85 on January 25, 2018, 07:48:50 AM
Quote
10) Ball the dough (make them tight without tearing the skin) and let ferment another 20-24 hours.

Bulk 36 h / ball 12 h (for more structure).
When I balled the dough, the skin was always tearing. I stretched all 4 sides one by one and folded them in, to get it tighter and more air in it. But the balls were always tearing.
At the end the balls opened itself, but teared some holes and got very thin on some places.

My only question is, what went wrong or what should I do, when my dough tears the skin when I ball it?

My balls had the same texture as the following picture:

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 25, 2018, 09:52:58 AM
Are you using sourdough?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: bifi85 on January 25, 2018, 11:34:25 AM
Yes I do (rye+water etc.). All was fine, till I balled. It was more a cluster than a silky ball.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 25, 2018, 11:44:38 AM
Yes I do (rye+water etc.). All was fine, till I balled. It was more a cluster than a silky ball.

Every now and then someone has this problem, and I think what it is is that your culture is excessively active when it comes to producing proteolytic enzymes. I think your culture is literally dissolving your dough.

Try the exact same formula and workflow with IDY and see if you have the same problem.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Obsauced on January 25, 2018, 02:12:03 PM
Hey Craig

Quick question. Tried a natural ferment today. 14hr bulk, 12 balls, and the rise isn't looking good, and the dough is really heavy and dense feeling (vs light, airy and fluffy). I used 4% starter (40g on 1000g Caputo).

My question: does it screw things up if your starter uses different flour than your pizza? My sourdough starter is crazy healthy, and going on 3 years now. But it uses wheat/bread flour at 100% hydration, not Caputo. I put a very active 40g in this pizza batch and have essentially no rise after 26 hours at 70 degrees (first bulk then balls).

I made sourdough with this same starter 2 days ago with a perfect rise, but that was the same flour as in the starter. Is that my issue?

I know you switched flours recently, did you switch the flours in your isicha starter too?

Thanks

I never had issues and I use a rye/KABF mixture. maybe trying out more starter. I know where I am my usual 15% got bumped up around 25-30%
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: jizza23 on February 02, 2018, 12:56:32 AM
I never had issues and I use a rye/KABF mixture. maybe trying out more starter. I know where I am my usual 15% got bumped up around 25-30%
Thanks, will try 20%
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: jizza23 on February 02, 2018, 12:57:34 AM
I don't know the answer to that question. If it was straight white flour, I would say no it doesn't matter, but maybe the wheat makes a difference. I feed mine KAAP, and I never use KAAP for NP.
Thanks!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: jizza23 on February 02, 2018, 12:57:43 AM
Lou (hotsawce) was having similar trroubles: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49654.msg503195#msg503195

It might be worth reading his posts.
Thanks again
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: junep on February 22, 2018, 06:57:56 PM
Craig, Today I decided to use my newly fed, mature Ischia starter using your technique with my recipe, which is more of a N.Y. style. I didn't know how to account for the starter when using one of the dough calculators. Since I opted to use 1.4% starter, I entered that as IDY, and then used that gram weight as started in the recipe. And instead of my usual 64% hydration I lowered it to 62 in an attempt to make up for the extra water in my starter. (My starter is equal parts by weight of flour and water)

My recipe for one 13" pie with 0.075 thickness is:
 
%                                       GRAMS
100 KAhigh gluten flour         143.04
 62  Water                              88.68 grams
   1.4 IDY (Ischia starter)          2.00
  2.4 Salt                                 3.43
  2.0 XV Olive oil                      2.86     
  1.0 Sugar                              1.43
  1.0 Diastatic Malt Powder        1.43
% Total 169.8                       242.88    GRAM TOTAL

I mixed it as best I could in my kitchen aid mixer as recommended. Since it was such a small amount I had to lift the bowl up and hold it to make contact as best I could. Then I hand kneaded it and did the stretching and resting as per your instructions.

I can only ferment it in the fridge or garage, so I'm doing the 24 hr ferment in the garage which is about 45 to 47F at 3 in the afternoon, since the fridge is colder and I don't have any way to do it as the sixty something degrees use for that first 24 hr ferment before balling the dough. So do you think I should bring it in the house after 18 hours and let it ferment there at 73F my house hold temperature, for six hours, then ball and ferment again in the garage at the 45 or so degrees for another 18 hrs, then bring it in the house again and let it sit at my 73F rm temp for 4 hrs before forming the pie?
Any input on my recipe or dealing with the temperatures I've mentioned would be most appreciated.

June



Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Heikjo on March 04, 2018, 06:20:07 AM
Craig,

Thank you for this thread, it's a treasure trove!

First, I see you have changed things a bit since the initial post. Since this thread is often referred to, maybe it would be useful to update the first post with what you do different now? I've read through about half the pages and see lots of useful nuggets here and there. Not necessarily removing the original info, but add what's new (amount of starter, mixing, flour etc.). I also see that the S&F link in the OP is broken again. Maybe add a link to the Sourdough prediction Google sheet? I find it very useful and easier to use than the prediction table.

Hey Craig, have you ever tried using your KA paddle attachment instead of the dough hook at the start of mixing, and if so, what were your results?

I've found that I can use your method with just 1 minute of mixing with paddle on speed 1, followed by 10 minute rest, followed by 2-3 sets of stretch folds with excellent results and a more tender pizza compared to the 5-8 minute mix with spiral hook.
I have not, but I'll give it a try. Thanks.
Did you ever try this? Also, have you ever made small enough batches that you don't need a mixer at all? I usually make 2 pies and I'm trying to make them without using a mixer at all. With 400g flour, is there any need for a mixer if it isn't used for kneading anyways? I certainly see the point of your OP procedure since it's a larger dough.

I made a dough for two balls today with 400g bread flour and 62% total hydration (not for NP style, but I'm using the same procedure). I mixed it by hand, let it rest and then did some rounds of S&F. It was pretty stiff right away and it was difficult to do much stretching and folding. Any suggestion to what the reason could be? I'm thinking that maybe the size of the dough is a contributing factor.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 04, 2018, 06:24:05 AM
No, I haven't tried that, but I do often mix by hand as I often make batches of dough that are significantly larger than my mixer can handle. I can't remember the last time I tried to make a batch of anything that was too small for the mixer.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: hotsawce on March 19, 2018, 07:27:33 PM
Craig,

Has your room temp sourdough ever overfermented, and if so what did it feel like?

I used 3% starter for a 24 hour bulk, and I think I underestimated the ambient temperature in the room. The dough looked slack and lifeless for the first 12 hours or so. I thought it was another bum batch of dough. But when I came back to it the next day, it had at least tripled in volume to my surprise. I'm guessing it was a little warmer than it felt, and I underestimated the starter I used.

I figured it was shot, but I balled it up anyway. I let the balls sit for a bit, and they stretched out a bit but not much more without tearing. I'm assuming overfermented dough led to tearing, but wondering if maybe it might have been something else?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 19, 2018, 09:56:49 PM
My dough has plenty of strength when overfermented. The main problem it gets is big bubbles that pop out of the cornicione and burn.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: hotsawce on March 23, 2018, 11:41:19 AM
Giving this style of dough a try again at my ambient room temp.

Dough began bulk at 7:30pm last night, using 4% starter. Came back to it at 10am and it had just about doubled. Not ideal but balls are holding shape right now. At least the dough felt active and alive. Balling the dough, the gluten didnít feel super strong. Not sure if thatís the starter messing things up or the fact it fermented so quickly.

Iíll likely try again using same time frame but 2% leaven/starter.

Update: after 2 hours in balls, tried to stretch a couple. Very tight, and the seam of the bottom of the dough ball didnít really seal up. Itís still noticeable. Itís airy and active but very tough to open, and tears at a certain point. Not sure why.

Update 2: Baked and pies were underwhelming. Not crispy at all. That speckled golden color with some brown in there. Bottom was completely blonde. Some air in the crust but gluten didnít look great. Ate dense and spongy. If I had to guess, the yeast probably went to town during the overactive bulk fermentation.

Update 3: some pictures. Hopefully this can be a guideline for people trying this out. One photo, seam on bottom of doughball not really sealing. Another, you can see how active it is. Itís definifelg airy.

However, stretching the dough felt very stiff. I can also really smell the natural fermentation here - it was probably already well fermented when balled. Contrary to Craigís recommendation of NOT feeling a gassy airy dough after bulk, this was really active.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: mrmafix on April 23, 2018, 09:05:22 PM
Hi all,

I looked throughout this post and couldn't find the answer to my question.  If I am using ADY or CY, how do I incorporate it into my dough?  Should I be using a poolish?  Or just stir in water and pour into the dough?  Any help would be amazing.  THANK YOU!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 23, 2018, 09:55:44 PM
0.024% IDY mixed in with the flour will work as a sub for the sourdough. It will at least get you close; test and tweak the yeast quantity or fermentation temperature as needed.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: mrmafix on April 24, 2018, 07:13:22 PM
Craig,

Thanks for the reply!  This might be a terrible question but do you mix the yeast in water before adding in or just add it to dough dry?  If you do mix it in, do you factor that water into the whole formula?  And what temperature is the yeast water mixture?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 24, 2018, 09:48:42 PM
With tiny quantities like that, I dissolve the yeast in the water.  I don't know the water temp. It's cool - probably in the 60's-70's.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 25, 2018, 11:07:36 AM
mrmafix,

To be on the safe side, I would agree with what Craig posted. However, I once experimented with how a small amount of yeast might be incorporated into a room temperature fermented dough, as well as other related matters, in the post at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg62332#msg62332

Peter
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: mrmafix on April 29, 2018, 07:27:35 PM
So if I am going with a 24hr RT (72F) bulk, would you ball at the 12 hour mark?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 29, 2018, 07:49:45 PM
So if I am going with a 24hr RT (72F) bulk, would you ball at the 12 hour mark?

Yes.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: mrmafix on April 30, 2018, 06:33:15 PM
So according to the chart, does fermentation stop in a dough that is using .024% IDY once you go below 45F?  So lets say I do a RT (72F) for ~20 hours (ball dough at the 12-hour mark) and for logistical reasons I need to fridge the dough (40F) for 12 or so hours, would it still be ok?  Or would I be crossing over the ~20hr recommendation if I fridged it for that long?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 30, 2018, 07:40:41 PM
So according to the chart, does fermentation stop in a dough that is using .024% IDY once you go below 45F?  So lets say I do a RT (72F) for ~20 hours (ball dough at the 12-hour mark) and for logistical reasons I need to fridge the dough (40F) for 12 or so hours, would it still be ok?  Or would I be crossing over the ~20hr recommendation if I fridged it for that long?

It's hard to say. There are a number of things that can have a material impact. You really just need to experiment. Getting experience is the only way you will be able to make adjustments on the fly that you can have a reasonable level of confidence will work as intended.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: mrmafix on April 30, 2018, 07:41:38 PM
Makes sense!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: hotsawce on May 08, 2018, 11:28:38 AM
Well, I gave this a try again and itís looking like another fail. Pictures of my bulk dough are attached, but in less than 20 hours itís risen quite a bit and I assume it has already overfermented. But maybe someone else can chime in.

Recipe as follows

Flour: 100% (1000g)
Water: 63% (630g) 64 to 65f from faucet
Sea salt: 3% (30g)
Starter: 1% (10g)

Ambient room temp read 77f, so I rounded up to 80 to be safe. Final dough temp was also 77f. Bulk began at 3pm - balled around 9am next day (based on what Franco manca was doing with the overnight, temp controlled bulk.)

Iím kind of surprised the dough looked like this with only 1% starter, but it is pretty warm here. The dough felt pretty loose when balling up (not tight like commercially yeasties dough) and it tore pretty easily before getting it to size (tried an hour after balling.) I wonder if the hulk was too long and I need to build my dough later in the evening? Any input is appreciated

Edit - the dough, when stretched to size (even when about to tear) looks as if the gluten is almost leeching water. Very strange wet spots
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: mitchjg on May 08, 2018, 11:54:45 AM
Lou:

Long ferments with low amounts of starter can have the most variation in final results - I think errors or variances tend to compound.  Small changes in the temperature over long periods of time can magnify the risk of over or under fermentation.  Same with very lengthy time periods. And, with different levels of ripeness.

Have you considered starting with a short time period and larger amount of SD as your preferment?  A same day dough with around 25% SD?

I think there is less risk of over/under fermentation there.  If that works well, then you can start working at lengthening the time period/reducing the preferment amount.

Just my $0.02.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: hotsawce on May 08, 2018, 12:06:21 PM
I really wanted to do a longer ferment but since you mention it, when I was having issues with naturally leavened dough there was a batch I made with a high amount of leaven and was able to use about 6 hour after the mix. It was originally intended to be bread.

That being said, I did bake the 1% dough skin as a pita and itís definitey sour. Why would a small amount of sourdough have more variability than a large amount, though?

Lou:

Long ferments with low amounts of starter can have the most variation in final results - I think errors or variances tend to compound.  Small changes in the temperature over long periods of time can magnify the risk of over or under fermentation.  Same with very lengthy time periods. And, with different levels of ripeness.

Have you considered starting with a short time period and larger amount of SD as your preferment?  A same day dough with around 25% SD?

I think there is less risk of over/under fermentation there.  If that works well, then you can start working at lengthening the time period/reducing the preferment amount.

Just my $0.02.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: mitchjg on May 08, 2018, 12:38:00 PM
Here is a framework for how I think of it.  I am sure the science and or semantics are not the least bit exact, but this is a mental model that conveys the idea.

Suppose you have a starter and temperature setting so that with 50% starter and 50% unfermented flour& water, it will be 100% starter at 4 hours.
So, you start with 100 grams starter, 50 grams flour, 50 grams water.

In 4 hours, you have 200 grams starter.  Do it again (adding flour and water).  In 8 hours, you have 400 grams starter.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

So, for example, in 24 hours, you have doubled your starter 6 times.  You have 2 X 2 X 2 X 2 X 2 X 2 ("2 to the 6th") X 100 = 6400 grams of starter.

Now, imagine that you really started with 100 grams of starter and 6300 grams of flour/water mixed.  You can visualize that in 24 hours it is fully developed as 6400 grams of starter.

Now, suppose you are not right about the timing and that your starter takes 4.8 hours to fully ferment, which is 20% longer time.  You then only have 5 doublings in 24 hours.  So, that is 2 X 2 X 2 X 2 X 2 X 100 = 3200 grams of starter and 3200 grams of unfermented starter.  Or, your starter is only halfway there, so to speak.

So, a 20% time error compounded into a 100% error in level of development.  You would have needed another 4.8 hours to fully ferment (get another doubling). 

The way I think about it is how long it takes the starter to eat through the rest of the dough.

I hope this makes some sort of sense.

You can argue it the other way, that you have more time to adjust your baking regimen with a long fermented dough by either warming up the dough/ throwing in the fridge, bakings sooner or baking later by watching the dough.  It accentuates the need to watch the dough and adjust things far in advance to stay close to a targeted baking start.

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Rick_F on May 08, 2018, 12:49:02 PM
Craig's sourdough model shows 1% culture at 24 hours to be 75 degrees.  If you're at 77-80, there's a chance you might need less than 1% culture.
With that said, cultures may vary in activity and yours may be an overactive one.  Another thing that comes to mind is the small quantity of culture (10 grams).  Some people's scales cannot accurately measure such a small quantity, and it's very easy to be several grams off.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: hotsawce on May 08, 2018, 03:14:37 PM
Despite the dough being overfermented and doughballs weak/prone to tearing they did hold shape and continued to proof. So I guess thatís sort of a silver lining? They baked up very stiff/dense with a grayish color so itís looking like fermentation really was just too fast.

Iíll make another batch this week and weigh starter using my jewelers scale so itís super accurate. Iíll also work on the ďunderfermentedĒ side of things. Iíll probably end up at half a percent of starter or less given the very warm temps.

Hopefully I can get the ambient temp using a small amount of starter down!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: hotsawce on May 10, 2018, 05:21:29 PM
I finally had some success with the the room temp, low inoculation sourdough.

Recipe
1000g Flour (100%)
630g Cool Water (63%)
30g Salt (3%)
5g Starter (0.5%)

Made and finished around 11pm at night. Bulk ferment overnight and balled around 10am.Dough balls were slightly active when balled but not over fermented. Baked around 4pm. So about 17 hours total for the ferment. I would estimate the ambient temp was 75 to 80f. Dough came out crispy, light, pretty airy.

The most interesting aspect I'd love some insight on - the starter, when used, had been about 24 hours since fed. I'm told when used it smelled pretty vinegary/acidic. But it appears that it still worked out well enough.

So now, I don't know if the very mature starter was the tipping point that made the dough workout okay this time, or the fact it wasn't over fermented with the very small amount of starter.

Either way, encouraging and steps in the right direction. I liked the flavor.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 10, 2018, 10:10:59 PM
That's the thing about SD, you have to figure out what works for you. Which starter were you using?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: hotsawce on May 10, 2018, 11:37:08 PM
Craig,

I used the Texas starter  ;D Itís very, very active so my gut is leaning towards it just being super active and with the warm weather, the first batch being overfermented after the bulk. With this batch and a smaller amount of starter (despite having fallen) I think it fixed the problem. I typically feed twice a day because itís so active in the warmer weather (even at 10% inoculation the starter wouldnít be on a 24h timeline) but itís so vigorous missing the feeding at 12h mark didnít seem to have a negative effect.

Have an identical batch working tonight - hoping for the same result.

Also, a number of people that sampled said the flavor was better ďthan normalĒ for some reason. They werenít told it was a room temp sour. Itís not sour - just more complex which is nice. So the small amount of natural leaven at room temp definitely makes a positive difference in flavor!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 11, 2018, 08:18:26 AM
Awesome!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Rick_F on May 11, 2018, 11:27:33 AM
I have better results when my starter is fallen as well.  When the starter is bubbly, the yeast is in the process of eating the sugars in the flour.  Once fallen, the food source is near depleted.  Then instead of another feeding, use it in your dough.  The yeast will be hungry then!

I eat better when I'm hungry as well!  ;D
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: inutero303 on May 15, 2018, 11:55:30 AM
its been 16hrs .. i only used 1% starter .. at 65deg temperarture .. how is it looking Craig .. seems alright .. maybe i little more starter would of been better ?

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 15, 2018, 12:12:26 PM
its been 16hrs .. i only used 1% starter .. at 65deg temperarture .. how is it looking Craig .. seems alright .. maybe i little more starter would of been better ?

16 of how many hours?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: inutero303 on May 15, 2018, 12:19:15 PM
16 of how many hours?

16 hrs total .. this is just the bulk .. was gona ball around 24hrs tonight

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 15, 2018, 12:25:25 PM
I meant how many hours of total fermentation were you planning. It's impossible to say how the fermentation is progressing without knowing how much time is left. It's really hard to tell from a picture, but that looks about right for 16 hours into 40-48 total. If anything, it may be a bit ahead of schedule.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: inutero303 on May 15, 2018, 12:41:16 PM
yes 48 total . im following your method of 24/24 .. its been 16hrs bulk and thats what it looks like

heres a better photo top and bottom

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 15, 2018, 03:58:01 PM
I think it looks OK. Keep an eye on it about 12 hours before you need and if it's going too fast, you might want to cool it in 30 minute increments in the fridge. Small adjustments earlier are much better than big adjustments at the end.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: inutero303 on May 15, 2018, 04:06:03 PM
sweet ! ... im gona use a tray because thats what i will be using for parties .. i cant buy 100 little containers for each individual dough .. i hope balls dont get too flat

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: mrmafix on June 21, 2018, 06:42:44 PM
How long should I wait between feeding the starter (which has been active) and using it in a dough recipe?  I've read 4 hours and I've read 8-12 hours.  Does anyone have some insight? 
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: h8stn4d on June 22, 2018, 07:31:35 PM
Hey Craig--I have used your recipe and methodology many times now--thank you!

A couple of somewhat related questions for you if you don't mind:

In a 48-hour fermentation at 1.7%-2%, are you still doing 24/24 bulk/ball? I ask this because I have found that at 24/24, the doughballs pretty routinely get very flat by the time I'm ready to open them. They are very easy to open, arguably too easy (too extensible, is the right terminology?). They can sometimes fall to the table when lifted.

I typically use 62% hydration, caputo 00 blue, 2.75% salt, in a cooler at about 62-65 degrees.

I have a batch in the cooler now at 24 hours and I'm tempted to let it sit for another 12 before balling tomorrow early am, giving it about 8-12 in balls (ie., 36 bulk; 12 ball). I just don't know how that is likely to impact things. Could that make the balls less flat/pancake-like, and is it likely to have an impact on extensibility/elasticity?

Thanks in advance--I greatly appreciate all I've learned from you!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 22, 2018, 10:07:36 PM
No, more often than not, I do 36+12.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: h8stn4d on June 22, 2018, 11:00:40 PM
Awesome--thanks for the fast reply. I'm leaving in the cooler tonight, then!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: hotsawce on November 05, 2018, 02:38:50 AM
Craig,

As I prepare to make some neapolitan dough I'm looking for something on more of a 20 to 24h timeline. I'm assuming my room temp will be around 75f. It seems you do 3/4 of the time in bulk and the last 1/4 in balls - would you recommend the same for the shorter 24h timeline? I know you don't like to see much, if any activity/volume increase in the bulk (I'm with you here - any time I've balled up airy sourdough from the bulk it was really soft and didn't work well for the balls - I'd rather see the volume increase in the balls only...)

I'm also trying to figure out how much useable life I will get out of a 24h room temp dough like this. I'm guessing it can be used maybe an hour (or two) early? I wonder how long it will hold after full fermentation. I am considering Franco Manca - last I checked the dough sat for 18 to 20 hours in bulk but only 2 to 3 in balls before being used (and I think this dough lasted for most of the day?)

Unfortunately, no space for a fermentation cooler in the apartment so I have to work with ambient temp
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 05, 2018, 08:45:06 PM
When I do 24, I do 12+12. I would think you could get 4ish hours of good window - maybe even a bit more - from a 24h/72F dough.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Icelandr on November 05, 2018, 09:22:26 PM
Craig, I am sure you may well have been through this many times, but as I look at your preference for timing when doing a 24 hour dough, the non scientific guy here asks . . .why 12 and 12. My science of fermentation by now may be a tad obvious . . Negligent, but I have felt that after 6 hours in ball, the dough is less manageable, but that is after 18 hours in bulk.
After 18 hours in bulk there is very little activity but more observed in the ball stage. I certainly am not questioning your timing, but ask if you could explain
Thanks so much

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 05, 2018, 09:28:08 PM
My 48 was originally 24+24, but the 24 in balls resulted in a dough that was almost too extensible. I was happy with the pizza, so I didn't mess with it. When I started using wood boxes, that necessitated 12 in balls or the bottoms got too dry. Over time, I came to prefer the workability of the 12 hour ball dough and it didn't seem to have any impact on the final product. This all being said, I don't do a lot of 24 hour pizza.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: dmen on December 12, 2018, 07:02:51 PM
OK, so I followed this pretty much to a T I think - I did 62% hydration with Caputo pizzeria, 3% salt and about 1.7% really active ischia. I did a 36 hour bulk right at 64ļ and just now "balled" them into 216g chunks. I put balled in quotes because the dough was so sticky... it was very difficult to even weigh it. Wondering if anyone else has this issue? They went into oiled tubs and back to 64ļ until tomorrow morning when I plan to bring them out into my kitchen which is roughly 73ļ - and then bake them tomorrow night.

How critical is achieving a tight ball like TXCraig1 says? Should I remove the balls from the bins (which are a bit oiled) and knead a bit so they are smooth again? The dough was quite smooth and supple when it went into the bulk ferment yesterday morning.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: dmen on December 14, 2018, 07:34:44 AM
Quick followup - the dough was sticky but came out of the tubs ok and into a pile of flour... they opened nicely and this was certainly the best crust I've ever made. Took a few pics of the first one. Still having some trouble with consistency using the Uuni 3 but that's another thread.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: JBfromLI on January 26, 2019, 05:25:51 PM
Thanks to Craig for his technique and formula! Just made these in my Pizza Party
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: sk on January 26, 2019, 05:55:33 PM
Good looking pizzas JB!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: JBfromLI on January 26, 2019, 06:14:22 PM
Good looking pizzas JB!
Thanks! The best Iíve made yet
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 26, 2019, 06:59:49 PM
Very nice!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: JBfromLI on January 26, 2019, 08:53:52 PM
Very nice!
Thanks! I was a little skeptical that it would turn out my first time using your formula and technique but I followed it closely and it worked really well. My bulk temperature was a bit cooler than you recommend so I let it go a little longer
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Heikjo on February 05, 2019, 11:52:46 AM
Here's a quote from topic from 2017 (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=48128.msg482904#msg482904).
Quote
The longer you leave dough in food containers, the worse they work. For a short rise, they work OK, but once you start going near 24 hours+, the dough will stick, oil or no oil, and you will damage your dough even if you are patient and let it come out on it's own. I'd stop using the plastic containers and switch to plastic food bags with a light spray of oil. I stopped using the tubs a couple years ago, and my pizza improved.
In a post from 2018 in another topic you said you use plastic boxes.

Is it plastic boxes you prefer these days? Do you oil them to avoid the dough sticking too much? Would it matter if you made 1-2 balls or 5-6? If the entire dough is bulked, maybe some sticking to the bottom won't matter much, but if they were balled after mixing maybe plastic bags are more gentle.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 05, 2019, 01:10:31 PM
Here's a quote from topic from 2017 (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=48128.msg482904#msg482904).In a post from 2018 in another topic you said you use plastic boxes.

Is it plastic boxes you prefer these days? Do you oil them to avoid the dough sticking too much? Would it matter if you made 1-2 balls or 5-6? If the entire dough is bulked, maybe some sticking to the bottom won't matter much, but if they were balled after mixing maybe plastic bags are more gentle.

I'd have to see the 2018 post to know what you're referring to? I still do the bulk in plastic but not the balls. I stopped using the plastic tubs in ~2015. I hate everything about them. I used bags with a mist of spray oil for a while, then I built the wood boxes that I use almost exclusively now (for NP; for other styles, I still use plastic bags). Nothing compares to wood for NP, IMO. They let me use almost zero bench flour.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Heikjo on February 05, 2019, 01:17:44 PM
This was for the bulk fermentation part btw., not the final stage in balls. Forgot to mention that.

The post I referred to: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14249.msg531479#msg531479

So now you do bulk in a plastic box and balls in wood box if I understand correctly. I thought you used the plastic bags in the bulk stage, but maybe that was the last stage in balls, where you now use the wood boxes. That makes more sense.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 05, 2019, 01:35:17 PM
I've always used a plastic box for bulk.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Dippenwood on February 06, 2019, 11:52:44 PM
Have you posted the design specs on your wood boxes, Craig?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 07, 2019, 06:41:00 AM
There's not a lot too them - sized to fit the cooler I use to ferment, they are just standard widths of pine boards from Home Depot, assembled with screws and glue. They will hold 10 balls each.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Heikjo on February 07, 2019, 06:50:15 AM
What are the inside dimensions? How much area do you want for each ball?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Icelandr on February 07, 2019, 10:18:02 AM
A look at Doughmate, will give some insight into standard sizes . . .no theyíre not wood but should be a good guide



https://doughmate.com/product/dough-trays-model-cpt-7d/ (https://doughmate.com/product/dough-trays-model-cpt-7d/)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 07, 2019, 05:55:23 PM
What are the inside dimensions? How much area do you want for each ball?

The internal dimensions of mine are roughly 24" x 11" x 2.5"
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: zacjones99 on February 10, 2019, 09:29:38 PM
Hi Craig.  I've read most of your walkthroughs.  Man thank you for all your writeups!  I would probably be working my way through the pizza bible if I hadn't stumbled onto this forum.  So I'm in the middle of my first dough experiment, and I dove right into your sourdough recipe.  For my first run at I went with fermenting at my RT of 70 degrees, and the dough rose quite a bit by 16-20 hours, more than is desired for sure, I didn't mark my glass bowl at the start, but I think it nearly doubled in size.  So anyway I think I let it bulk ferment too long at that temp, or my starter was overactive.  I did the 1.3kg flour and 17g starter recipe in the 1st post.

So to get to a 65 degree ferment I have my eye on an 8 bottle emerson wine cooler FR24SL BNIB on craigslist for $35 that has a setting for 65 degrees.   I'm thinking of picking it up, but it takes up a fair amount of counter space.  It would probably have to live in the garage and come out of hiding every week or two to do its job for a couple days. 

Basically I just want to hear that it's worth the trouble of hauling a countertop wine cooler in and out of the garage to do the low and slow ferment at 65 vs doing a shorter ferment on the countertop at 70.   If your RT was 70, would you bother with trying to get to 65 for fermenting? 

Also you have said that you often finish your ball ferment at your RT of 78.  My wife will tolerate the house being as low as 70 and probably as high as 73 or 74.  If your RT was 73 or 74, and after you ball, you decided you wanted to ferment above 65 for a while, would you try and find a way to get to 78 or so by using the oven/oven light on trick or just be happy by turning up the HVAC a few degrees to a max of 73-74 and finish up on the countertop?  Also, how do you come to decide when the balled dough needs to be fermented at a higher temp?

I'm using a pizza party bollore gas, and my flour is the caputo 00 pizzeria.  I'm using an ischia starter given to me by a fantastic local pizzeria napoletano.

And thanks for posting the pics of your dough trays.  I was just thinking about making a pair of them for ball ferment on either the countertop or the wine cooler.  Which begs another question... So there are two wire racks in the wine cooler (pictured in the attachments).  If you're recommending the wine cooler for my situation, would you make two separate boxes with lids to allow for airflow all around each of  the boxes, or just remove the second shelf and make two stacking trays (like the ones you pictured) with a lid for the top one that allowed for airflow on all sides of the stack, just not between the individual trays?

If anyone else cares to chime in please don't hesitate to do so.  Thanks!  Zac.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Pazzo on February 22, 2019, 02:32:03 PM
This dough was bulk fermented at 60f for 38 hours and has been in balls now for 6 hours at 60f. I plan to open it in 4 hours after letting it sit for 1 hour at 69f, so 3 more hours at 61 snd 1 hour at 69. Is it looking about right or do I need to speed things up?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: rdbedwards on February 22, 2019, 05:01:57 PM
For me, I think that is getting close, but you're right to be considering speeding it up.  What is the size, has it risen much in ball?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 22, 2019, 06:37:59 PM
I agree it wouldn't hurt to go straight to 69 though it would probably be fine as planned.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: hotsawce on June 10, 2019, 03:48:57 PM
Craig,

With IDY and this method (24h to 48h room temp) have you ever had issues with the bulk dough becoming very sticky, and even stickier when going into balls? I've been trying this with KAAP flour (I have a lot on hand) and at hydration levels from 56% to 60% the dough has felt incredibly sticky when going into balls, and only got stickier as they've sat. I've used IDY from 0.02% as low as 0.005% at my current room temp of 75 to 80f. At the 0.02% amount my bulk was definitely too active but 0.01% seemed like a reasonable activity level and I wouldn't expect it to get sticky like that.

All I can think is, maybe, the malt is having a bad effect?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 10, 2019, 04:05:22 PM
Malt would be my guess as it's breaking down both starch and proteins.

I do this both 24 and 48 hours fairly often with IDY and unmalted flour and don't remember ever having a problem with the dough getting sticky.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: hotsawce on June 13, 2019, 12:35:44 PM
Grabbed some arrowhead organic AP and mixed up yesterday. Bulked 18 hours. Very little activity (likely because of no malt) but the dough held its structure and no sign of anything degrading. It had to be the malt. The dough balled up strong and beautifully. Holding shape.

I'm also feeding my starter with freshly milled flour and will likely try your SD variant tomorrow, too. The flour made a huge difference.


Malt would be my guess as it's breaking down both starch and proteins.

I do this both 24 and 48 hours fairly often with IDY and unmalted flour and don't remember ever having a problem with the dough getting sticky.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 13, 2019, 02:03:32 PM
Looking forward to the pies.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Roberto_buonissimo on June 25, 2019, 07:57:04 AM
Hi Craig!
I am so happy, that i can finally answer your totally awesome and helpful post ! (been struggling to register here for over a year now ..)

Thank you for your amazing and detailled description how you make your dough!

I have been doing a lot dough but u know - learning and experimenting will never stop ;)

so for this weekend i will follow your steps - the only thing that differs from your procedure is that i use fresh yeast and do an autolyse for 30 Minutes or so ..) and i do mostly a 24 h dough.

is there a profound difference in texture and especially taste if i would try the 48h ?

and what is your opinion on biga and poolish ?? (is there a significant improvement if not using a SD starter with this?)

in my cellar the temperature is at constant 18 C (64F)

thanks !
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 25, 2019, 09:45:50 AM
I do it at 24 hours with IDY now and then and it comes out really good. I've never tried to adapt it to a poolish or biga.

For 24h @ 64F, I'd start with about 0.05% IDY
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Roberto_buonissimo on June 25, 2019, 09:56:59 AM
thanks! 18 bulk and 6 balled ?

if i use fresh yeast (is there an advantage over IDY?) - should i go for 0,15% than ?

do you find a significant flavour improvment using SD ?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 25, 2019, 10:04:17 AM
thanks! 18 bulk and 6 balled ?

if i use fresh yeast (is there an advantage over IDY?) - should i go for 0,15% than ?

do you find a significant flavour improvment using SD ?

I'd probably do 12+12 or 0+24.  I don't use fresh yeast, but that sounds  right.

I do find SD makes a significantly better pizza but it's also significantly more difficult.  That's not to say that IDY or CY can't make a great pizza - or that you might not prefer IDY or CY. I'd suggest mastering the basic fundamental skills with IDY or CY before throwing SD into the equation.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Roberto_buonissimo on June 25, 2019, 10:21:07 AM
cool to know ! wow 24 h balled - i would be worried that they are flattend or so or they dont handle that well.. but i will try the 12/12 again thanks!

and what is the advantage than for the 48h proofing ? how much or little yeast should i use for this ? 0,025 % (half of the 24 h?)

is it ok to use dried Sourdough just for flavor ? any experience with that ?

cheers and thanks craig
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: hotsawce on June 25, 2019, 10:58:38 AM
You don't have any issues with the dough balls turning into pancakes?

My room temp is 75f to 80f and I'm having a tough time getting caputo pizzeria to go 24 hours. I wonder if the room temp is a little too warm?

I'd probably do 12+12 or 0+24.  I don't use fresh yeast, but that sounds  right.

I do find SD makes a significantly better pizza but it's also significantly more difficult.  That's not to say that IDY or CY can't make a great pizza - or that you might not prefer IDY or CY. I'd suggest mastering the basic fundamental skills with IDY or CY before throwing SD into the equation.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 25, 2019, 11:30:21 AM
I almost always do 12 hours in balls and they hold their shape OK.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: iLLEb on July 08, 2019, 04:52:05 AM
Craig, do you have any thoughts on perhaps using sous vide aparatus to control temperature exactly?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 11, 2019, 01:11:53 AM
Craig, do you have any thoughts on perhaps using sous vide aparatus to control temperature exactly?

No, other than that conductivity and pressure would be very different.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: iLLEb on July 11, 2019, 03:10:27 AM
When balling the dough and in the wooden box do you cover the tops with clingfilm or a wet tea towel or just use another wooden box on top?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 12, 2019, 04:30:04 PM
When balling the dough and in the wooden box do you cover the tops with clingfilm or a wet tea towel or just use another wooden box on top?

Another box.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: jsaras on July 16, 2019, 05:33:36 PM
Grabbed some arrowhead organic AP and mixed up yesterday. Bulked 18 hours. Very little activity (likely because of no malt) but the dough held its structure and no sign of anything degrading. It had to be the malt. The dough balled up strong and beautifully. Holding shape.

I'm also feeding my starter with freshly milled flour and will likely try your SD variant tomorrow, too. The flour made a huge difference.

I've had so much grief with my 5 pound bag of re-packaged Caputo I've begun questioning my sanity.  I'm going to get some Arrowhead organic AP ASAP. 
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: jonesyb on July 18, 2019, 12:31:38 PM
This thread is awesome. But does anyone have a recipe I can use with dried yeast? And a 48 hour rise?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 18, 2019, 12:43:31 PM
This thread is awesome. But does anyone have a recipe I can use with dried yeast? And a 48 hour rise?

Sub 0.024% IDY in this recipe.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: iLLEb on July 19, 2019, 04:31:43 AM
Craig would you plastic wrap the top of you wooden box if you do not have one extra to sit on top? I am still scared it will dry out

Also, i think i read it somewhere already, but how would you say is the best way to get the doughballs out of the wooden boxes?

*edit

Is there an new link for the stretch and fold? Seems to be offline
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 19, 2019, 10:37:19 AM
Plastic wrap would probably be fine. I don't use it because I've had it stick to dough before. I made a lid that fits as a top for the top box in the stack.

I use a plastic dough knife to get them out but metal would probably be fine too.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 19, 2019, 10:40:56 AM
Is there an new link for the stretch and fold? Seems to be offline

You can see it here:

https://youtu.be/kXV8mayG3W0?t=90

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXV8mayG3W0&t=90
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: rdbedwards on July 19, 2019, 07:50:01 PM
You can see it here:

https://youtu.be/kXV8mayG3W0?t=90

That video is for bread; is this one of the few instances of overlap between bread and pizza dough?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 19, 2019, 10:11:05 PM
That video is for bread; is this one of the few instances of overlap between bread and pizza dough?

Both have to get mixed/kneaded one way or another, no?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: iLLEb on July 20, 2019, 03:31:02 PM
Craig, how do you judge the doughballs fermentation status when in wooden boxes as you cannot see the bottom as you did with plastic?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 20, 2019, 04:07:05 PM
View from the top.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: iLLEb on July 20, 2019, 05:00:07 PM
Do you have a picture perhaps of a good timed dough
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 20, 2019, 06:30:21 PM
No, not handy. Sorry. Just look for 1.7 - 2.0x increase.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: iLLEb on July 24, 2019, 03:57:09 AM
The day has finally arrived. MY FIRST NEAPOLITAN DOUGH AND BAKE with decent equipment.

I would very much like your opinion on what you think of it and don't be kind. i would like very much to hear how and what i can approve on.

I used IDY as my starter is not ready yet. Either way, it was incredibly airy with a cracker thin crust as you bite into it goes from JUST a slight crack from the paper thin bubble to airyness, light and the base is great, unfortunately i used cheap cheese and tomato so yeah that was not the best but thats an easy fix obviously, as this was an test and i wasnt eating eat completely. altough i still finished the pie eventually -_-

 I was abit worried my dough ball was underfermented and still am, but i believe it was just right, but i have no point of reference so i could not tell tbh. either way it was definitely useable.

It was baked in an Stefano ferrara oven which from now on i have the pleasure of using every tuesday, i talked to the pizzeria owner and he gave me the option of getting to know the process of pizzamaking and using the oven without pay at non-busy times. Which i excitedly accepted, its just perfect, i get to learn, use the oven, talk about pizza and use an incredible nice oven.


*edit
in my excitement i forgot, i want to thank you ever so much for your incredible amount of information that you have provided and i have soaked up. without it this would not ever be possible and it is for me and probably so many others an invaluable gift of which hardly any words can describe the gratitude.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 24, 2019, 06:39:26 AM
I would very much like your opinion on what you think of it and don't be kind. i would like very much to hear how and what i can approve on.

I think your pizza looks great. The crust coloration is very nice, the underside is a bit on the light side for my tastes but certainly within the bounds of what you want to see. It looks like you did a nice job of opening the dough - no rim ramp. I don't have anything negative to say about it. It's just practice and working on the fine tuning from here.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: iLLEb on July 24, 2019, 08:01:31 AM
I think your pizza looks great. The crust coloration is very nice, the underside is a bit on the light side for my tastes but certainly within the bounds of what you want to see. It looks like you did a nice job of opening the dough - no rim ramp. I don't have anything negative to say about it. It's just practice and working on the fine tuning from here.

I got to give credit where credit is due, i did not open it myself i asked an professional to open it as i was curious how it would come out with more skilled hands. Underneath i would like it a bit darker as well but i contribute it to too little time or too low deck temp as it was later in the evening.  I was incredibly happy with myself when it came out of the oven like this and even better when i tasted it, it was always like i thought it would be, its funny, i have no point of comparison as neapolitan pizza in my country is virtually non existent and i have not been to naples.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Fat_Tony on July 24, 2019, 10:17:58 AM
It was baked in an Stefano ferrara oven which from now on i have the pleasure of using every tuesday, i talked to the pizzeria owner and he gave me the option of getting to know the process of pizzamaking and using the oven without pay at non-busy times. Which i excitedly accepted, its just perfect, i get to learn, use the oven, talk about pizza and use an incredible nice oven.

(reads this and furiously calls ever pizzeria in town with a WFO!!!)

That's awesome. Pizza looks good man, nice job.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: iLLEb on July 24, 2019, 01:12:28 PM
Thanks alot! yes it was such luck, owner was awesome. fnally worked out.. im learning alot from just watcing the professional and hes also very nice to work with giving me pointers and patience.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: adam90 on July 24, 2019, 07:55:59 PM
After weeks of reading this incredible forum (Craig, I don't know where you find the time but the content you put on here is priceless!!) I'm about to make my first batch of sourdough Pizza this weekend. Although, I just have one question with regards to the preferment calculator.

When the calculator tells me the quantity of flour and water for my preferment e.g 2.5g water & 2.5g flour, does this just mean I simply take 5g of my 100% hydration starter to add to the dough mix?

Only asking as when I have previously been making sourdough bread the recipe usually has a 1:1:1 ratio or starter:water:flour for the levain/preferment and just want to make sure it is not the case here. So not 2.5g starter:2.5g water:2.5g flour = 7.5g of starter.

Sorry if this is a question that has been asked before but had a few searches of the forum and didn't find anything that helped.

Adam
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Wolves1 on July 24, 2019, 08:52:50 PM
Craig can you please give some advice. Im trying to find % of IDY, the apps are all over the place. Caputo Pizzeria flour, 12 hour CF 38f and 12 hour 65f or 18 hour CF 38f and 6 hour room fermentation at 65f. Can you please help with % of IDY and which out of the to do you prefer.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 24, 2019, 09:46:14 PM
I have no idea what to tell you. I either do all RT or all CF except for the last couple hours. I've never tried a CF-RT hybrid.

My suggestion is to pick an amount. Try it, and adjust as needed on the next batch.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: DoouBall on July 24, 2019, 10:29:06 PM
Craig can you please give some advice. Im trying to find % of IDY, the apps are all over the place. Caputo Pizzeria flour, 12 hour CF 38f and 12 hour 65f or 18 hour CF 38f and 6 hour room fermentation at 65f. Can you please help with % of IDY and which out of the to do you prefer.

Craig, hope it's ok if I jump in here. Wolves1 - Craig's recipe is designed around a steady temperature around 63-65F for the entire fermentation process. I've used it countless times and it's one of the very best on the site! If your room temp is a steady 65F, I recommend just trying Craig's recipe as is - you'll probably be very happy with the results.

That said, if you'd like to try to combine CF with RT, try using 0.12% IDY for 24 hour CF in bulk followed by 5-6 hours in ball at RT. At 29-30 hours, it's a little longer than your process above, but it has worked very well for me.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: ARenko on July 24, 2019, 11:30:59 PM
If I can also butt in...

Craig advised how to use his chart for multi-temp ferments in the below post.  Pick your fermention times/ temperatures and follow the chart and directions.  Adjust in future bakes as necessary.  That said, as Doouball says... if you have 65F room temp, why not just ferment at that temp?

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg396401#msg396401
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Wolves1 on July 25, 2019, 07:10:19 AM
Thank you. I am new to the  Neapolitan style has I just got a wood oven. Iíve been nervous doing a 24hr room temp. Been reading that the Caputo pizzeria flour doesnít do well with it. It is warm here in Long Island NY so may try the cooler and try keeping a 65F temp. It will be 85F this weekend and Iím making the pizza outside how do you adjust making the pizza with the higher temp. I usual make four pizza dough put toppings on two and cook the two while the other two wait on the counter till I have room in the oven should I also adjust while doing this.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 25, 2019, 07:38:46 AM
Iíve been nervous doing a 24hr room temp. Been reading that the Caputo pizzeria flour doesnít do well with it.

Nonsense. Even 48h is fine.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: crawsdaddy on July 25, 2019, 02:37:58 PM
Craig, what is your usual temperature for your 24 RT dough?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 25, 2019, 03:13:23 PM
Craig, what is your usual temperature for your 24 RT dough?

62F +/-2F
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: iLLEb on July 26, 2019, 04:39:24 AM
Craig it is not possible for me to find the calabrian chilies in the bottle with fluid. Is dry calabrian chilies cooked in evoo the same?

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 26, 2019, 08:24:48 AM
Craig it is not possible for me to find the calabrian chilies in the bottle with fluid. Is dry calabrian chilies cooked in evoo the same?

Sadly, no, not at all the same.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: iLLEb on July 26, 2019, 03:30:29 PM
dangit
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Wolves1 on July 27, 2019, 09:46:52 PM
Craig thank you so much did a 24hr at 65F with IDY it was one of the best pizzas I ever made.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 29, 2019, 06:36:39 AM
Awesome. Great to hear!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Wolves1 on August 01, 2019, 03:35:35 PM
TXcraig1 with the 24 hr fermentation is it a problem if I ball the dough 12 hr before making the pizza?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 01, 2019, 06:02:19 PM
TXcraig1 with the 24 hr fermentation is it a problem if I ball the dough 12 hr before making the pizza?

Should be fine.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Wolves1 on August 01, 2019, 06:04:56 PM
Thank you
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Wolves1 on August 01, 2019, 06:07:39 PM
After following your advice and the pizza crust I made last week you may be the only one I listen to from now on.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Wolves1 on August 03, 2019, 12:35:13 PM
The balling at 12 hours resulted a little more difficult to take out of the box but a good crust. The 6hr balling result was a great crust, definitely preferred the 6hr crust over the 12hr.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: iLLEb on August 12, 2019, 11:59:30 AM
Is This the correct preferment calc or should it be done differently. I can do it either per dough or per flower.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 12, 2019, 12:45:31 PM
Is This the correct preferment calc or should it be done differently. I can do it either per dough or per flower.

I don't treat the culture like a preferment in the formula when it's less than 4% or so.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: iLLEb on August 12, 2019, 01:46:26 PM
Okay, but 1.1% culture from 1030kg is still 11.35 so its fine to calc the 1.1 procent this way yes?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 14, 2019, 06:37:37 AM
Okay, but 1.1% culture from 1030kg is still 11.35 so its fine to calc the 1.1 procent this way yes?

Yes. I do 2.1% that way all the time. 1.1% is pretty light. What is the fermentation time/temp?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: iLLEb on August 14, 2019, 07:55:46 AM
17/18 celcius 48H 36 bulk 10H balled 2H about 23 celcius

Your post says 1.1 / 1.3

should i be using 2.3%?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 14, 2019, 08:44:10 AM
17/18 celcius 48H 36 bulk 10H balled 2H about 23 celcius

Your post says 1.1 / 1.3

should i be using 2.3%?

If you're holding 18C, 1.3% will probably be OK. I'm closer to 15.5C now, so I need more culture.

Keep in mind that all cultures and workflows are different and you may need to use more or less than I do.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: iLLEb on August 14, 2019, 09:02:25 AM
I am trying to spot for perfect maturation but its hard to tell tbh. I will just keep making dough till it i figure it out.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 14, 2019, 09:24:11 AM
That's all you can do, and nobody ever said it's easy.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: iLLEb on August 14, 2019, 09:42:45 AM
Amen. Nothing bad about making pizza so im good to go.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: iLLEb on August 19, 2019, 04:26:46 AM
Why did you move to 15,5C?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 19, 2019, 06:41:49 AM
Why did you move to 15,5C?

It's easier for me to hold that temp.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: sk on August 19, 2019, 10:50:24 AM
Yes. I do 2.1% that way all the time. 1.1% is pretty light. What is the fermentation time/temp?

Craig, I have been following along on this discussion.  Question on SD culture.  2.1% for how long a ferment?  If I did the math right, at 15.5c, your chart calls for much more at 24 or 48 hours.  What's your best guess at culture % for 24 or 48 hour ferment?

Thanks, Scott
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 19, 2019, 01:45:09 PM
I did the math wrong. It's not 15.5C, it's more like 17C/62F.  Also, my culture seems to have slowed some, so I round up.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Heikjo on August 19, 2019, 03:17:23 PM
Also remember that the chart is based on numbers from Craig and other forum members. It's a suggested starting point and if you adjust for your own starter, it may work the same as long as any difference is factored in.

I have noticed that the model can be pretty far off at some places. I know it's not dead accurate, but I wonder sometimes if it misses by a lot in some parts of the chart since there weren't as much data to begin with.

As an example, for my 24 hour dough in 15C, I use 2.5-3% starter, but the model predicts 24.6%, which is way off. I know every starter is different, but I don't believe any healthy starter would need that much for a 24 hour dough at 15C. So my thought is that some areas of the chart can be far off.

Do you have any insight on this, Craig?

I wonder if it works better for 48 hour ferments than 24 hour.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: sk on August 19, 2019, 04:02:37 PM
Heikjo:  Totally agree on the chart being the starting point.  However, something in the 20% range did not make sense.  The starting point is what I was thinking about.  I can hold a steady 15c in my wine cooler pretty easily.  I wanted to try that.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Heikjo on August 19, 2019, 04:20:57 PM
In 15C, you can start with something around 2-5%, depending on which way you want err if it's off the mark. I prefer being under and bring it to RT at some point to speed it up. It can be slowed down by putting it in the fridge for a period here and there too.

Write down the recipe and the hours. If you miss the mark, adjust next time and try again, you'll soon find a good spot. Dough temperature also makes a difference. A warmer dough will get a head-start and be ready sooner. I don't worry about dough temp as long as I keep the method the same every time. When my dough is tuned to my method and I do it the same way every time, it's pretty reliable. I probably notice the biggest difference if the RT is significantly higher or lower, but that's mainly because I keep it in RT some 40-60 minutes before it goes into the cooler.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: amolapizza on August 19, 2019, 04:25:48 PM
I imagine that it's important to be consistent with the starter too, that is to say always have it at peak performance.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Heikjo on August 19, 2019, 04:32:26 PM
I imagine that it's important to be consistent with the starter too, that is to say always have it at peak performance.
I always recommend using it at peak if you don't have a reason not to, but more important is to use it at the same time every time. It's got a pretty large window where it's usable, and more skilled cooks than I can use them younger or more mature to achieve certain characteristics, perhaps mostly in taste.

And don't confuse peak with the clock. If it peaked in 6 hours one day and 10 the next, peak is still where you want to use it. It's useful to know how to adjust your starter feeding to accommodate your schedule, so you don't have to get up at 5AM to make the dough because the starter would peak then. :D
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: amolapizza on August 19, 2019, 04:39:44 PM
At peak because that would presumably be more consistent.

When baking bread I've started feeding it twice before baking.  Once the evening before, where I feed it 1/2/2, and then once more in the morning where it's fed 1/1/1 and then I use it just before it peaks.   Seems much more consistent and better performing like that.

I've also stopped keeping it in the fridge as I didn't much care for how it changed in character.  It seems to be ok on the counter 6 days and then fed twice before baking.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: starfish on September 14, 2019, 04:58:15 PM
Hey Craig (and hi forum),

I know that you suggest Caputo blu pizzeria for your recipe, but it's only available in 25 kg bags, which is way too much for a single household. What would be the best alternative flower, available in smaller packages?

Cheers,
Ralph
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: quietdesperation on September 16, 2019, 12:51:26 PM
Hi Ralph,

  Iím sure Craig will get around to replying, I believe he suggested a non-malted all purpose flour. Iíve been using an organic gm flour, not because itís organic but because itís the only non malted flour in our grocery store.

I think if you were to read the whole thread, somewhere or other Craig mentions that most tasters canít tell the difference btw caputo and non malted ap.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 16, 2019, 01:04:52 PM
Try whatever unmalted (no malted barley flour or enzymes listed in the ingredients) AP and bread flour you can get locally.  I haven't used Caputo in years.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: iLLEb on September 16, 2019, 02:19:12 PM
where ur pies at, i miss them.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 16, 2019, 05:36:30 PM
where ur pies at, i miss them.

Haven't had much time for pizza lately   :'(
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: iLLEb on September 17, 2019, 02:54:31 AM
What you up to? You rascal

Pizza question also:

I feed my starter every 24H, should i feed it more regularly when im planning to use it? What effects does it have on your pizza to feed it every 24H instead of 12H or such?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 17, 2019, 01:45:48 PM
I doubt it has any effect.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Tannerwooden on November 16, 2019, 09:59:43 AM
Craig, early in this post, you provided a link to the Google docs file with the spreadsheet you use to calculate your dough. The link no longer works. It now says that I have to "Request access".

Would you please update this? That calculator has been my go-to for a long time! I know I should have made a copy! I just kept using a bookmark to this page.

Thanks again for all your help upping everyone's pizza game! (Everyone smart enough to listen to you, that is)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 16, 2019, 01:14:29 PM
Try this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mqOdKH2z0s8bU-qIN_3N_25JP24IEJM5rXBELHorKW0/edit?usp=sharing

No guarantees that the spreadsheet works. I haven't looked at the link in years, and I'm not going to do anything to maintain it.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Tannerwooden on November 16, 2019, 01:52:58 PM
Worked great! Thanks!!! (I made a copy this time)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: hotsawce on November 18, 2019, 12:25:17 PM
Craig,

When you use commercial yeast, are you still looking for just the tiniest amount of activity before balling? I'm taking a break from sourdough but have been high on higher hydrations and hand mixing. I might push the caputo red upward in hydration, but I've noticed my higher hydration stuff needs some activity in the bulk or it flattens out quite a bit.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 18, 2019, 01:06:14 PM
Craig,

When you use commercial yeast, are you still looking for just the tiniest amount of activity before balling? I'm taking a break from sourdough but have been high on higher hydrations and hand mixing. I might push the caputo red upward in hydration, but I've noticed my higher hydration stuff needs some activity in the bulk or it flattens out quite a bit.

Yes, my workflow is pretty much the same with IDY or SD.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: slp0100 on December 19, 2019, 11:33:53 AM
100% Caputo (my typical batch is ~1.3kg flour)
62.5% Water at about 40-45F (play with this over time in a range of 60-64%)
3.0% Salt (I would not go lower than 2.5% or more than maybe 3.1%)
1.3% Ischia Culture (fully active) NO FRESH YEAST, IDY, or ADY!!! Trust your culture. The hydration and flour you use in your culture donít matter much at quantities this low.  Iím probably a little stiffer than 100%, but I doubt it is significant.

1) Dissolve the salt in the water.
2) Mix in the culture until itís pretty well dissolved. I use a hand whisk and froth it up some too.
3) Quickly add about 2/3 of the flour and mix (I use a KitchenAid K5SS) until basically homogeneous. I use the dough hook in my hand to get all the flour wet quickly, and then I put it on the mixer.
4) Add the remaining 1/3 of the flour evenly over the next 5 minutes or so allowing each addition to become incorporated before adding the next bit.
5) Mix until generally smooth and homogenous. It wonít get completely smooth and silky yet. It will still have a bit of a rough look when you stop the mixer. Itís going to feel somewhat tacky and rather soft.
6) Dump it onto a counter, give it 20 or so kneads until it is fairly stiff, cover with plastic or a bowl, and let it rest for 7-10 minutes. In the summer, I put it on a plate and let it rest (covered) in the fridge.
7) It will have relaxed noticeably. Stretch and fold it 4 or 5 times. Watch this video if you donít know what I mean by stretch and fold: http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough.  It will get stiff again and get some tears on the surface. Cover and let it rest again for another 7-10 minutes. Remember to try to capture air in the dough as you do your stretch and folds.
8] Give it a few more stretch and folds. If it is now silky smooth, youíre done. If not, give it one more rest and a few more stretch-and-folds, and you should be good to go.
9) Put it in a container and let it ferment in bulk for 24 hours at ~65F. Ideally, you will see virtually no rise after 24 hours. You should maybe start to see some tiny little bubbles forming. This is how I do my bulk ferment: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18509.msg179991.html#msg179991
10) Ball the dough (make them tight without tearing the skin) and let ferment another 20-24 hours. I use lightly oiled individual Rubbermaid tubs. I use 250g balls for a 13Ē pizza. If you want a very large cornice, use 275g.

Dough trays are fine too but a little touchier as the balls will come together and will need to be cut apart and lifted out with a scraper. With the lightly oiled tubs, the dough ball just rolls right out onto your flour pile. Start the ball fermentation at ~65F in the same set-up you use for your bulk. After 12 hours, youíll have to pay attention to what is going on and either keep it at 65F or let it warm as high as 78F or so to get the balls ready when you want them ready.

After doing it a couple times, you get a handle on how changes in temperature affect activity. It can be quite variable. Sometime I need to keep the balls at 65F for almost the entire time. Sometimes the last 10 hours or so may be 78F. Ideally, at least the last couple hours will be at 78F or so. You get a little better oven rise performance when the dough is warmer (though leoparding may be better when the dough is cooler).  More times than not, I end up keeping my dough balls at 65F or so for about 18 hours and then bring them up to 78F for the final 4+ hours. If you want a temperature between 65F and 78F, open the door of the cooler but leave the ice block in there. If you really need to slow things down, stick the balls in the fridge for 15-20 minutes or so. You may have to do this several times. Donít go longer. You really donít want the dough to get too cold especially if it is close to the time you want to bake it.

Your culture, how active it is, temperature and temperature stability will all affect things. So will hydration and salinity if you vary them. You really need to experiment some to dial things in exactly where you want them and to understand what adjustments you need to make as environmental conditions change.

Pictures:
1) Adding the remaining flour Ė the dough kind of tears up and incorporates air as it comes back together.
2) The dough is ready to come out of the mixer.
3) The dough is stiff after the 20 kneads and needs a rest.
4) The dough is now relaxed, but you can see how it is not yet smooth. Capture air in the dough as you stretch and fold.
5) Notice how smooth it is now after a couple rests and stretch and folds. A couple more until it is stiff and itís ready for the bulk ferment.
6) How I like the bulk dough to look just before balling Ė the only signs of activity are tiny little bubbles.
7) This bulk dough has too much activity. Cut back your yeast or temperature. I donít want to feel gas, and I donít want bubbles of gas coming to the surface when I form, the balls.
8] This dough ball is about ready to bake.
9) This is about the most rise I want to see in a dough ball.

EDIT (7/3/15): For a current link for the Bertinet Gourmet video, see http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough.html
Would you use .5% ADY
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 19, 2019, 12:28:26 PM
Quote
Would you use .5% ADY

No, that would be WAY too much. Making no other changes, I'd use about 0.035% ADY.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: In Bocca Al Lupo on January 18, 2020, 02:22:26 AM
Eight works well, but they can hold 10 if you pack them in.

I have used flour in the dough boxes for a long time but recently started freaking myself out that this was hurting the pizza and not needed. Any thoughts on this Craig? Do you sprinkle any flour on top of the dough balls after shaping? I have seen that some times as well.

Thanks!!! Love this thread.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 18, 2020, 10:31:48 AM
I use a bit of flour on the bottom of the (wood) boxes. None on top of the balls. I'm not sure what would be the point of that.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: MO_Pie on February 13, 2020, 11:22:42 AM
Just checking - since I'm getting my own starter ramped up - is that around 17g of SD starter for your 1300g flour dough?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 13, 2020, 11:34:02 AM
Just checking - since I'm getting my own starter ramped up - is that around 17g of SD starter for your 1300g flour dough?

Yes, that correct per the numbers in the older posts.

Recently I'm more like 2%, so 26g per 1,300g flour.

I think my starter has slowed a bit, and I also have come to like the dough a bit more fermented.

If it's particularly warm, I may go as low as 1.7% or if it's very cold, as high as 2.2%
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: MO_Pie on February 13, 2020, 12:17:33 PM
It's freezing here today! And I'm cheap so my rt is 68' ish... when we're home!  I think I'll err on the high side especially considering it's my culture's first time out after a decade in the fridge  :P

So, you're doing a 'straight' dough rather than pre-fermenting a portion first?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 13, 2020, 01:18:21 PM
Yes, straight dough. Fully active culture though.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: MO_Pie on February 17, 2020, 07:25:54 PM
It was cold here, so I went with 3% for my first time out with my frankenstarter (the 10 year old Ischia I revived from the fridge).. but I'll do 2% next time.

Thanks for all the help and instruction!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 17, 2020, 09:05:00 PM
Looking good. Test, tweak, and repeat your way into perfection.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: tommydgun on March 05, 2020, 02:20:37 PM
Craig do you have a recommended video or process for creating a culture as you are using in this recipe? I've been looking around and haven't found it. Sorry if you posted and I missed it!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: HansB on March 05, 2020, 02:25:29 PM
Here's an easy one that I use: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuU0xmqEZyI&app=desktop
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 06, 2020, 07:36:52 AM
Another one to try that's a bit different: https://ruhlman.com/2009/07/21/simple-sourdough-starter/
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 06, 2020, 07:41:27 AM
It wouldn't hurt to start several using different methods and see which works best. SD is a bit unpredictable, particularly at first.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: silviaapilinario on March 09, 2020, 12:26:13 AM
Hi, I also made this Neapolitan Pizza Dough. It is very easy to follow and make your pizza dough at home. 

Ingredients -

1. 11lbs Italian Flour ď00Ē (You can use Caputo 00 or Molini Pizzuti)
2. 3.25 quarts of Water at 55 degrees Fahrenheit
3. Ĺ oz of Fresh Yeast
4. 5 oz of Salt

 Procedure -

1. Add the water in the mixer.
2. Dissolve the yeast in the water.
3. Start the Dough Mixer.
4. Start adding the flour.
5. Make sure to add 80% of the flour in the first two minutes of mixing.
6. Add the salt
7. Mix for a total of 15-20 minutes.



Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: tommydgun on March 13, 2020, 04:51:09 PM
Hey Craig, if my bulk looks like the "too much activity in the bulk" picture after 24h should i throw it in the fridge until im ready to ball and should i ball for less time? or what do i do to save my dough?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 13, 2020, 07:06:47 PM
I'd probably ball it then throw the balls in the fridge for a while to slow them down some. Try not to over-correct. A bit overfermented is preferable to a bit under, IMO.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: tommydgun on March 13, 2020, 08:06:17 PM
Thanks for the reply.  I panicked and put it in the fridge in bulk and now I can see a pretty big bubble forming at the top... it has definitely doubled in size.  I can ball it, but is it okay to ball once chilled in the fridge or do I need to let it warm before balling?  Thanks so much for answering my questions!  So hard to measure these small amounts of instant dry yeast.  I definitely need to make a starter but I just haven't gotten around to it yet :(
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 13, 2020, 10:43:07 PM
It's fine to ball after chilled in bulk.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: tommydgun on March 14, 2020, 06:55:57 PM
Craig thank you. I used IDY and arrowhead mills organic AP flour and had to put in the fridge for a little bit but it came out beautifully and delicious! Ooni pro by the way! =)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 15, 2020, 06:52:16 PM
Looking good.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: tommydgun on May 08, 2020, 09:32:18 AM
Looking good.

Hello, Craig.  I just wanted to ask two more questions.  I read on page 1 of the comments that someone was trying to distinguish between "stretch and fold" and "slap and fold" and this always confused me.  Are you indeed picking up the dough and slapping it on the table and folding it over itself or are you keeping the dough on the table and stretching it and folding it onto itself and never letting the dough leave the table?  I assumed the former as in the video, but your picture of you stretching the dough with one hand to show its form throws me off.  I'd love to hear you clarify :)

Also, I finally got a stand mixer... what setting are you mixing on?  I noticed after re-reading your method you never mentioned the speed setting on the stand mixer.  I too have a kitchen-aid.

Thanks!

-Tommy
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 08, 2020, 07:18:59 PM
Stretch and fold. Like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEVCrqbfRJ4
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: tommydgun on May 09, 2020, 05:49:35 PM
Stretch and fold. Like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEVCrqbfRJ4

Forgive me if I am mistaken but did you link the wrong video by accident?  Watched all three parts and don't see a stretch and fold.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 09, 2020, 05:57:53 PM
Maybe I misunderstood what you were asking about. Is it this?

This (at 4:30)?:

https://youtu.be/sOjSp5_YiF0
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: tommydgun on May 09, 2020, 06:00:13 PM
yes thank you :)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: iLLEb on August 10, 2020, 12:17:37 PM
Craig, why would you not go lower than 2.5%? Is it for structural integrity?

I currently run a neapolitan recipe with a bit of oil for god knows what reason. my head says it makes it a bit crunchier.

I dont go for actual neapolitan as i prefer it crunchy more than soft. although im shooting for both in between but als not new york.

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 10, 2020, 12:27:47 PM
I think NP dough needs 2.5% salt or more for flavor. The crust is so thin, I think it needs more than other styles with thicker crusts to deliver the flavor.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Komarzer on August 18, 2020, 03:26:24 AM
I haven't received my Koda 16 yet, and even made a single pizza yet, but I'm using this post as my pizza goal. So much information thank you Craig and everybody in this thread. I have so much to learn, so many variables in play, temperature, fermentation, yeast. A bit scary. I'm gonna do it.
 
My first mission is to make a sourdough starter. I'll probably be using this one which was recommended a lot and pretty simple, I just had a question. Some recipes call for AP flour, some wholemeal rye, some whole wheat, etc. What will be the difference between these in the end product? Does taste will change? Or is it just about the speed at which the sourdough will develop?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuU0xmqEZyI
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 18, 2020, 07:23:19 AM
I've always used AP or BF. There are certain benefits/limitations of rye and WW to get it started, but I don't think I can do it justice trying to explain the differences.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Komarzer on August 18, 2020, 08:20:06 AM
Thank you for the answer. I'll try my first one with a wholemeal rye / bread flour combination and see how it'll go!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: HansB on August 18, 2020, 08:31:54 AM
Many, many books including Bread, Bread Science, and The Bread Builders, use rye to kind of jumpstart a starter. Rye and whole wheat have higher vitamins, minerals, and fermentable sugars that will help create a strong leaven. There are about 200 times more sourdough-friendly microorganisms in whole grain flour compared to white flour. Starters that I have made with whole wheat and rye have worked really well. It's not to say that you can't successfully build a starter with bread flour alone.

After the starter gets going you can change to all BF to feed depending on the flavor you want your dough to have. I feed mine with 75/25 white flour to whole wheat. The feeding schedule also affects flavor.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Komarzer on August 20, 2020, 02:54:34 AM
Nice to know, that'll make it easier for me. It's good to have a bit of knowledge on the science behind it.
You'd recommend to mesure the water and the flour or to eyeball like in the video?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: HansB on August 20, 2020, 06:58:39 AM
Nice to know, that'll make it easier for me. It's good to have a bit of knowledge on the science behind it.
You'd recommend to measure the water and the flour or to eyeball like in the video?

I measure, feeding with 25g each of water and flour. But you don't have to be that precise.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Komarzer on August 20, 2020, 07:53:20 AM
Alright thanks. I'll start the starter on Monday.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: levity03 on September 08, 2020, 03:50:16 PM
Followed this process as close as I could this weekend, launched yesterday. First of all -- a big thank you to TXCraig! I lowered the hydration to 60% just to be sure I could handle the dough - still somewhat of a beginner, you could say.

Temps were perhaps a bit higher (avg around ~67į) during bulk / balled. Once we were ready to start cooking, you'll see the activity in the bottom of one of the containers. The first pie (marg) was absolutely delicious, however, the next couple were pretty hard to stretch - very fragile. In fact, the middle became too thin and my peel opened a hole in one. In another, it was also too thin and actually tore while I was trying to stretch - had to turn it into a calzone...

With previous doughs I've used ADY and a mix of caputo red / AP (NYT Roberta's recipe) with a cold ferment - the dough seemed stronger and didn't thin out/tear so easily. I did the slap / folds as suggested for this one but the dough wasn't so wet at all; it did hold together quite well almost immediately.

I'm wondering if the gluten structure just wasn't as strong with this batch - if so, how to improve? Could the temp of the dough ball itself leave results like this too? Perhaps the 2nd/3rd balls may have had more time to 'warm up'.

Any suggestions / tips are greatly appreciated!!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 09, 2020, 07:07:57 AM
What was the exact formula and workflow? Temps, times. Type of flour, etc?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: levity03 on September 09, 2020, 10:06:28 AM
What was the exact formula and workflow? Temps, times. Type of flour, etc?

First off, I'm using my own rye/AP starter that I've had for about a year. Quite strong - had about tripled before adding it to the H20. I more or less followed your process as closely as I could.

100% Caputo Pizzeria
60% H20 @ about 48į
3% Salt
1.3% starter

I haven't used my KitchenAid much - never for pizza. During the mix, it was on Stir speed for the duration, about 7 minutes or so in total? Goal was to have it look as you showed in your first post, which it seemed to have done after that amount of time.

As I mentioned before, during the stretch/fold step, it certainly wasn't as wet as the video referenced in this thread - seemed strong, but I did what I could with it to try to trap as much air as possible.

24 hour in bulk @ ~67į. I'm attaching the photos from when the dough went in and when it came out of bulk - you can see it did rise a bit.

Balled and placed back in cooler for another 20 hours or so. I did let the temp rise a bit (70į-72į? I stopped monitoring as we had company) for the last couple hours and saw a good amount of activity, as you can see in my previous post.

I do feel my stretching needs some work but I've made pizzas before that didn't seem so fragile - thinning out in the middle quite a bit, and easily. I'm sure a lot has to do with my method - I'm no pro! - but didn't seem so strong. I've watched others stretching their dough on YouTube and such, and it seems much easier to work with.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 09, 2020, 10:10:59 AM
As a first step, I'd suggest trying 36 hours in bulk and 12 hours in balls and see if that helps.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: levity03 on September 09, 2020, 11:45:19 AM
Will do, thanks for the suggestion. I suppose this would allow for more gluten development but may I ask why you think, based on my descriptions, it could help? Could it be the starter isn't as strong as I thought? Or the mix wasn't as thorough? Certainly not questioning your advice, just curious.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 09, 2020, 02:21:12 PM
The thought behind less time in balls is that the dough will be a bit less relaxed which often helps a lot when it comes to avoiding thin spots. At 24 hours+ fermentation, your dough will be pretty much as strong as it can be even with minimal mixing/kneading because of the biochemical gluten development that occurs over time in lieu of mechanical development. If your dough is weak, it could be weak flour or maybe you have a particularly strong starter when it comes to enzyme and acid production, it's working to degrade the dough. However, that would look like dissolved dough rather than extensible dough. My guess is that cutting the time in balls will help a lot.

When I open the dough, I open it about 80% then top and load onto the peel. I then open it the final 20% on the peel. The weight of the toppings helps maintain the center thickness that that last 20% will come from the cornicione as opposed to the center.

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: levity03 on September 10, 2020, 09:59:42 AM
Craig -- thank you for your generous advice! The wife only allows biweekly pizza nights so will report back then ;-)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: dday_two on September 26, 2020, 08:29:16 AM
Hi Graig, have you noticed any particular flavour/texture difference for a 48h fermentation between different temperatures in the range of 59-687F (15-20C)?

F.e. you think there is any noticeable difference between using 4% SD at ~60F and 2% SD at ~63F? Or it as a matter of convenience?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 26, 2020, 10:38:29 AM
Hi Graig, have you noticed any particular flavour/texture difference for a 48h fermentation between different temperatures in the range of 59-687F (15-20C)?

F.e. you think there is any noticeable difference between using 4% SD at ~60F and 2% SD at ~63F? Or it as a matter of convenience?

No. I can't say I've noticed a significant difference.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Bogy on October 24, 2020, 01:15:18 AM
Hi Graig, i'm so excited with your topic about sourdough pizza and i thank you a lot for that. and i like to inquire about RT daily starter feeding routine you suggest as i want to use the discard from this daily feeding (as active) as a levain to my dough (no need to build anew one from my starter)

1- what temperature you like to keep your starter in? and what you suggest for this feeding routine (once or twice or more)?
2- If i want to keep my starter at 60-65F , is this routine be the same or what you suggest?

all thanks to you.

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 26, 2020, 07:51:35 AM
How you do it is less important than that you do it the same way every time. That's the only to get consistent, predictable results.

I typically feed 1/day and keep it at 75-77F. If I'm not going to use it for a while, I put it in the fridge. It takes a couple days of feedings after taking it out fo the fridge to get it back to full activity.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: 02ebz06 on October 26, 2020, 12:31:16 PM
How you do it is less important than that you do it the same way every time. That's the only to get consistent, predictable results.

I typically feed 1/day and keep it at 75-77F. If I'm not going to use it for a while, I put it in the fridge. It takes a couple days of feedings after taking it out fo the fridge to get it back to full activity.

Craig, do you find feeding the RT starter once a day any different than twice a day?
Everything I've read says twice a day at RT, and once a week if it is in fridge.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: DoouBall on October 26, 2020, 12:38:59 PM
How you do it is less important than that you do it the same way every time. That's the only to get consistent, predictable results.

I typically feed 1/day and keep it at 75-77F. If I'm not going to use it for a while, I put it in the fridge. It takes a couple days of feedings after taking it out fo the fridge to get it back to full activity.

I want to second Craig's excellent recommendation. A lot of sourdough bread guys feed twice a day, but I found it unnecessary. Once a day at the same time and with the same feeding ratio makes the sourdough very strong in just 2-3 days. Craig, what ratio do you use for feeding at once per day? I'm usually at 1:4:4 in colder RT or 1:8:8 at warm/hot RT.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 26, 2020, 01:07:34 PM
I can't even remember how many years it's been since I fed 2x/day, and I've gone as long as 6 months in the fridge with no ill effect and still had quick recovery times of two days tops.

My feeding is a bit different than most. It's kind of a semi wash. I use a quart mason jar, and it has about 1 cup in it. To feed, I fill about 3/4 with water, so about 2 cups. I mix it all up then dump some out so that there is enough water that after I feed, I end up with about a cup. I keep it a thick-batter consistency.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: DoouBall on October 26, 2020, 04:25:52 PM
I might try this because my jar is getting crusty.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: gdepozsgay on October 26, 2020, 05:05:29 PM
Can this dough be frozen for later use? If yes, at what stage of the process.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Bogy on October 26, 2020, 05:51:35 PM
How you do it is less important than that you do it the same way every time. That's the only to get consistent, predictable results.

I typically feed 1/day and keep it at 75-77F. If I'm not going to use it for a while, I put it in the fridge. It takes a couple days of feedings after taking it out fo the fridge to get it back to full activity.

Thanks Craig
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Bogy on October 26, 2020, 06:00:02 PM
I want to second Craig's excellent recommendation. A lot of sourdough bread guys feed twice a day, but I found it unnecessary. Once a day at the same time and with the same feeding ratio makes the sourdough very strong in just 2-3 days. Craig, what ratio do you use for feeding at once per day? I'm usually at 1:4:4 in colder RT or 1:8:8 at warm/hot RT.

Hi DoouBall, according to your method
If i keep my starter at 60-65F as colder RT, i need  1:4:4 once a day ... that's right?!

So if i do that daily, is the starter be active when i feed it that i can use it direct as a levain to my dough or need building a new levain?!

for more explanation : i don't want build a levain , i want to use the active mother starter (when feeding it again) direct to  the dough, so (24hrs 1:4:4 at 60-65f) feeding routine can achieve that or not?!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 26, 2020, 06:17:58 PM
Can this dough be frozen for later use? If yes, at what stage of the process.

Maybe, but I kind of doubt it would work well.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: ebxsxf00 on November 18, 2020, 10:40:53 AM
I have a standard starter I use for bread baking. What percentages do you use for your final refresh of starter ? For bread, I use 100% flour, 65% water, 50% starter - sit for 4 hours. Would this work for pizza ? Looks like you use a more liquid starter like 100% water. What percent starter ?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: DoouBall on November 18, 2020, 11:55:32 AM
Hi DoouBall, according to your method
If i keep my starter at 60-65F as colder RT, i need  1:4:4 once a day ... that's right?!

So if i do that daily, is the starter be active when i feed it that i can use it direct as a levain to my dough or need building a new levain?!

for more explanation : i don't want build a levain , i want to use the active mother starter (when feeding it again) direct to  the dough, so (24hrs 1:4:4 at 60-65f) feeding routine can achieve that or not?!

You can use the starter directly in your dough as long as it has at least doubled within the last 4-12 hours and has not collapsed. No need to build a separate levain for pizza because we're using relatively small amounts of starter for the pizza. As far as the feeding ratio - this is going to be unique to your starter and your temperatures. You can adjust the feeding ratios from 1:1:1 to 1:10:10 so that your starter doubles or triples in the 6-12 hour timeframe. In the summer, I'll use 1:4:4 or even 1:10:10 if I need to slow it down even more. In the winter, I take it down to 1:2:2 or even 1:1:1 because it's more sluggish at lower temps. You can change the ratio also based on when you need it to be ready - for example, if you're feeding the starter in the mornign and you want it ready in 4-6 hours, use 1:2:2 but if you want to make dough at the end of the day use 1:4:4 or whatever ratio you need for it to mature after 12 hours.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Bogy on November 19, 2020, 12:32:36 AM
You can use the starter directly in your dough as long as it has at least doubled within the last 4-12 hours and has not collapsed. No need to build a separate levain for pizza because we're using relatively small amounts of starter for the pizza. As far as the feeding ratio - this is going to be unique to your starter and your temperatures. You can adjust the feeding ratios from 1:1:1 to 1:10:10 so that your starter doubles or triples in the 6-12 hour timeframe. In the summer, I'll use 1:4:4 or even 1:10:10 if I need to slow it down even more. In the winter, I take it down to 1:2:2 or even 1:1:1 because it's more sluggish at lower temps. You can change the ratio also based on when you need it to be ready - for example, if you're feeding the starter in the mornign and you want it ready in 4-6 hours, use 1:2:2 but if you want to make dough at the end of the day use 1:4:4 or whatever ratio you need for it to mature after 12 hours.

Thank you  :)
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 19, 2020, 08:05:57 AM
I have a standard starter I use for bread baking. What percentages do you use for your final refresh of starter ? For bread, I use 100% flour, 65% water, 50% starter - sit for 4 hours. Would this work for pizza ? Looks like you use a more liquid starter like 100% water. What percent starter ?

I use mine at ~100% HR. At the small quantities I use, I doubt they HR makes much, if any, difference.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: levity03 on December 02, 2020, 04:00:12 PM
Hey Craig -- Just following up on my previous query regarding the fragility of the dough when stretching. I had at it again but haven't had time to post. I tried in balls for ~12 hours and it was still pretty similar, hard to work with. Seems the gluten development is just not as strong as I find with ADY. I admittedly had a bit of trouble keeping a steady temp in the bulk -- started too cold, around 61F but warmed up from there - I would say the avg was around 65F when all said and done, before I balled and started to warm up further (high 60s, low 70s) before launch.

My starter is quite strong when I mix, so perhaps it's my method. Would an increase in mix time help? Perhaps I'm not balling tight enough...? I realize it's hard for you to say without seeing but anything else you can think of? Pics below start with the end of bulk, then dough ball activity before launch (looks quite active), then the finished product.

I am thinking of adding a bit of ADY the next time so that it's not such a struggle, though I know I may get shunned for that around these parts!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Icelandr on December 02, 2020, 04:28:36 PM
Out of curiosity, how long have you had your starter? I only ask because I too, am new to sourdough and in the early days had a ton of issues that seem to have resolved themselves, not through a stroke of genius on my part but a maturing of the starter (apparently). It has been about 5 months now and I no longer mutter curses when using it, in fact, in retrospect I am glad I tried and persevered, I like the results . . . . .now.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: levity03 on December 02, 2020, 04:32:05 PM
For about a year or so. I keep it in the fridge and feed it about once a week or so if I'm not using it. Before I use it for bread or pizza, I feed 3x in 12 hr intervals. Even after the first feeding, it's pretty damn active - growing 2x+.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 03, 2020, 08:40:12 AM
Hey Craig -- Just following up on my previous query regarding the fragility of the dough when stretching. I had at it again but haven't had time to post. I tried in balls for ~12 hours and it was still pretty similar, hard to work with. Seems the gluten development is just not as strong as I find with ADY. I admittedly had a bit of trouble keeping a steady temp in the bulk -- started too cold, around 61F but warmed up from there - I would say the avg was around 65F when all said and done, before I balled and started to warm up further (high 60s, low 70s) before launch.

My starter is quite strong when I mix, so perhaps it's my method. Would an increase in mix time help? Perhaps I'm not balling tight enough...? I realize it's hard for you to say without seeing but anything else you can think of? Pics below start with the end of bulk, then dough ball activity before launch (looks quite active), then the finished product.

I am thinking of adding a bit of ADY the next time so that it's not such a struggle, though I know I may get shunned for that around these parts!

If you're only doing a total of 12h fermentation, you might try kneading more. My guess is that your starter is particularly strong when it comes to producing enzymes and/or acids that are breaking down the dough. If that's the case, there isn't much you can do with it.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: levity03 on December 03, 2020, 09:56:02 AM
To clarify -- it's a 48hr fermentation total. I started at 24hr bulk, 24hr balled, and had a similar result so you mentioned earlier in the thread trying to keep them in balls for just 12 hrs (36hr bulk), which is what I'm referring to.

It could be the same issue, I suppose -- perhaps I should scale down my starter to flour/H20 ratio. I'm usually doing 20-30g starter to 100g flour/H20 during feedings. Can give 10g starter a go. Will also try more kneading.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 03, 2020, 02:36:43 PM
To clarify -- it's a 48hr fermentation total. I started at 24hr bulk, 24hr balled, and had a similar result so you mentioned earlier in the thread trying to keep them in balls for just 12 hrs (36hr bulk), which is what I'm referring to.

It could be the same issue, I suppose -- perhaps I should scale down my starter to flour/H20 ratio. I'm usually doing 20-30g starter to 100g flour/H20 during feedings. Can give 10g starter a go. Will also try more kneading.

At 48 hours, your gluten will fully develop with almost no kneading. My guess is gluten degradation from the starter. Some starters just don't work for pizza. We see this here every so often. Maybe cut the starter WAY back and use IDY/ADY for most of the rise and then work up the SD and down the IDY/ADY until you find the sweet spot.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: levity03 on December 03, 2020, 03:38:35 PM
Interesting. I may order an Ischia culture to see if that improves my results. Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: sk on December 04, 2020, 02:50:27 PM
It actually looks pretty good to me.  I'm not sure exactly what fault you are finding.  Dough made with SD is defnitely sometimes a bit more tender than dough made with IDY.  Treat it with care and the taste will be worth the effort.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: icebob on December 07, 2020, 04:42:46 PM
First try with sourdough, followed Craig's recipe from 1st page with 1.8% Ischia starter, 36hrs bulk, 12 balled @65~66f in the basement.Didn't have any caputo blue left so I used  Tony Gemignaniís ďCalifornia ArtisanĒ Type 00 Pizza Flour. Not bad for a first. Deck was @ ~900f and cooked in around 65/70 seconds,forgot to take a pic of the bottom... My frikkin S20 phone always get that orange tint when taking pics inside, they were not that dark! will go at it again next week-end...
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 07, 2020, 04:49:00 PM
Very nice!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: levity03 on December 07, 2020, 05:03:24 PM
That's a beautiful looking pie!

May I ask where folks are purchasing their Ischia starter from?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: 02ebz06 on December 07, 2020, 05:36:06 PM
Sourdo.com
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: George_M on December 08, 2020, 03:54:38 PM
My delicious pizza!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv-vlgCuFDg
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Bogy on January 06, 2021, 02:39:29 AM
Hi Craig, I'm very impressed by your topics about using sourdough in make NP pizza and that encourages me to try using it instead of commercial yeast and I thank you a lot for that.

I read before you ferment your dough at 18C, then you ferment it now at 62F +/-2 (as 16-18C) . and I like to know your opinion about two things
1- Do you find more flavor and more aroma in the dough at 62F ?!

2- What about your FDT (final dough temperature) ?!
    What about making FDT=62F as the same fermentation temperature?!


Thank you again
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 06, 2021, 02:59:24 AM
1) Yes. I've experimented <60F and >90F, and in the mid 60's is where I'm the happiest.

2) Never really paid attention to FDT.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Bogy on January 06, 2021, 02:05:32 PM
1) Yes. I've experimented <60F and >90F, and in the mid 60's is where I'm the happiest.

2) Never really paid attention to FDT.

Thank you a lot
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Paulo on January 10, 2021, 10:31:14 AM
Hey guys, I'm new to the forum, my name is Paulo, I'm from Brazil and I have been making neapolitan style pizza in my home oven for almost a year now. I am amazed by the pictures shared, but I was wondering if any of you can give me some tips on how to get some leopard in a home oven (if that is possible) and big bubbles in the corniccione for example. Thank you!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 10, 2021, 11:48:19 AM
Hey guys, I'm new to the forum, my name is Paulo, I'm from Brazil and I have been making neapolitan style pizza in my home oven for almost a year now. I am amazed by the pictures shared, but I was wondering if any of you can give me some tips on how to get some leopard in a home oven (if that is possible) and big bubbles in the corniccione for example. Thank you!

These can give you some guidance, however unless you have an abnormally powerful broiler, it can be difficult without making dangerous oven modifications.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10024.0
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11654.0

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Paulo on January 10, 2021, 02:30:08 PM
These can give you some guidance, however unless you have an abnormally powerful broiler, it can be difficult without making dangerous oven modifications.

Thanks! Just to give some context:
My dough is:
- 100% flour
- ~68% water
- 2% salt
- 1% fresh yeast

After a 20 min kneading section (recommended by an Enzo Coccia video if I'm not mistaken), I let it rest for 8 to 10 hours in room temperature, then I form the dough balls and place them in individual plastic containers for 4 to 6 more hours.

How can I improve the recipe so that the bubbles get bigger for example?

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 10, 2021, 03:23:42 PM
It's not so much about the formula is it is the heat which is hard to duplicate. A suitably thick steel plate high in the oven combined with the broiler is where I'd start.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Paulo on January 10, 2021, 04:24:14 PM
Nice, thank you very much!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Caaleb on January 18, 2021, 04:40:27 AM
Hi Craig. Iíd first like to thank you for what you have done on this forum. You are an inspiration to me and many many others.

After many attempts at cold fermenting and not getting much flavor, I stumbled upon this recipe. You argument for not cold fermenting SD makes total sense to me. I make a 3-4ish min NY Neapolitan ish hybrid pizza in my ooni koda 16.

I converted you recipe to be a bit more ny by using mostly malted flour and 1.5% oil.

100% flour 800g (700g KA AP, 94g unmalted high gluten 14% BF, 4g rye)
65% water (not sure why I went so high?)
3% salt
1.3% ischia culture
1.5% evoo

Starter came from fridge was fed 1:4:4 and over doubled, hadnít started falling. Didnít float? I made the dough exactly like you said, except I used slight hotter water accidentally. The FDT was 71 degrees. Tried to keep it at around 65 degrees, but it wasnít perfect. (I have a room thermometer coming tomorrow to help). After 24 hours bulked at more or less 60-65 it rose only about a cm. When I went to ball they felt wonderful! Not too wet at all. Barley sticky.

Iíve attached a picture of them after balling. They were at about 60-65 degrees for 8 hours. When I woke up they had flattened a lot. Flatter than Iíve ever had any dough ball. I knew something was up. I continued to proof them but determined they were going to slow so I put them in a 90 degree oven twice for about 15 minutes.

When I went to open them they felt like they had no gluten. The middle thinned out of very easily and all the dough seemed to bunch in the crust. I couldnít pick the dough up without misshaping it. It tore extremely easily. I baked them and I got a little bit of oven spring. Not a ton. The flavor of the dough was wonderful! Not sour at all, but almost buttery. Very flavorful.

Iíve found others with seemingly very similar issues using this method. I think my starter has to much enzyme and acid production, or the dough was very overproofed. I have had this happen once before with the gluten where I definitely over proofed some room temp sourdough. I than went to a cold fermented recipe. I had no problems with that dough, it handled beautifully but had no fermented flavor. Another issue could be lack of consistent feeding of my starter. I feed different amounts and skip days sometimes. I will fix that. Or maybe I just needed to develop more gluten in my dough?

The high gluten flour I have is from Carinsprings, called glacier peak. Itís 13-14%. It was recommended by Anthony Falco and is milled just 39 minutes from me which is why I wanted to try it. I think it has caused more issues for me so Iím going to go back to KA AP. But it could be helpful in creating more gluten for this dough.

I understand I went off the path a lot. I also should have taken more pictures. Iím going to make this dough tomorrow with all KA AP flour, 62% hydration and document everything. Iím determined to make this formula work, even if it means getting a new starter.

Thank you.





Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 18, 2021, 06:42:38 AM
Mine get pretty flat too.

I'd suggest trying

62%
3% salt
2% culture
no EVOO

Keep the temp the same. Ball after 36 hours.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Caaleb on January 18, 2021, 06:26:15 PM
Mine get pretty flat too.

I'd suggest trying

62%
3% salt
2% culture
no EVOO

Keep the temp the same. Ball after 36 hours.

Thank you Craig. I just mixed a 1:1:1 refresh and when it peaks Iím going to make this formula. My room thermometer came today so I should be able to hold a steady temp.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Caaleb on January 20, 2021, 09:36:13 PM
I know this is a NP thread hope my NYish attempt is ok to post here. Going for light, crispy, airy. Tried not to over ferment this one, but it might have been a bit. Gluten was perfect!! Stretched beautifully.  36 hours bulk 12 balled. The crumb shows collapsed gluten from slight over fermentation correct?

I tried going a bit slower with this one, about 6-7 min. Iím using a screen to launch right on the stone. The ooni koda 16 is very cramped when trying to launch 14-15inch pies, as well as issues with uneven heating. Really wish I had just got a large steel for my oven. after about 1.5 min I placed it directly on the stone. I think Iím having oven spring issues, might try a higher flame during the screen launch.

I think I over baker it a tad and it was a little dry and tough. Next pie Iíll fire faster and it itís still dry I might try 63 or 64. I donít feel like I got much fermentation flavor. I used a somewhat younger and small 1:1:1 starter refresh to get the starter for the dough, that could be why. My starter was just a random dehydrated ischia starter I got for super cheap off ebay. Thank you. Constructive criticism from anyone very welcome.


Edit: 2nd baked wasnít as over cooked, definitely more tender. Still a bit dry.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: earlobe on February 05, 2021, 11:08:17 AM
Thanks, Craig, for the guidance on your method. I followed along with a few modifications - I used my own sourdough starter and I used Central Milling's 00 flour. I increased hydration to 68.5%.

Bulk took about 18 hours to get where it looked right, and I balled and put them outside in quite cool (45-55F) temps overnight, bringing them in around noon. I had to bump them in a proofing oven at 80 for about an hour before baking to get them active enough.

Not perfect by any means, but cooked in my Breville they were done in under 2 minutes and very crisp-tender.

Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: EthanPizza on April 15, 2021, 04:05:31 PM

1) Dissolve the salt in the water.
2) Mix in the culture until itís pretty well dissolved. I use a hand whisk and froth it up some too.


Hey, Craig. I've been reading up on your work, and am thuroughly impressed.

I had been making batches with 16% starter, but currently have some dough balls with 2% proofing, which seems crazy low, but I shall Trust my starter!

Here's my issue, if I follow your steps, my culture clumps up every time i add it to salt water, so I'm dissolving starter first, then adding flour and salt at the end. Is there some trick to get the starter to mix into salt water, I tried heating the water, I tried doing a little bit at a time, I tried a wire whisk, but no matter what I do, it becomes a gummy undissolved clump every time. Could it be that my starter is too stiff, it's used at peak of rise or just before at 50% hydration.

Thanks
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 15, 2021, 04:39:05 PM
I've never had that problem. I use a whisk. My starter is ~100% HR.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: EthanPizza on April 15, 2021, 07:24:08 PM
I've never had that problem. I use a whisk. My starter is ~100% HR.

Whoops, i meant 100% not 50%.
Odd. It happened repeatedly. Very parcular indeed. None the less, completely blown away by how much excessive amount of starter I have been using.

I'm interested to see what happens with these lower % of starter.

Here's one of my 16% starters, I tend to do cannoto, but I'll be trying a more traditional with your recipe.

Super curious on what's going on with it getting gummy.

Thanks for responding and keep doing the puzza gods' work good sir.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: parallei on April 15, 2021, 09:59:29 PM
.............
Here's my issue, if I follow your steps, my culture clumps up every time i add it to salt water, so I'm dissolving starter first, then adding flour and salt at the end.


I've had the same issue. The salt in the water really tightens up the starter.

Like yourself, I add the salt at the end. I hold back a bit of water and after a rough mix add the salt and held back water and squish it all in there. Like the Tartine bread method.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: Icelandr on April 15, 2021, 11:57:26 PM
Apologies if unrelated . . . I add salt to flour and mix with spoon or whisk, measure water, then add Sourdough to water and whisk in. Two bowls, I add the flour and salt mix to the water sourdough mix, slowly mixing with my fingers, then my hands . . .not exactly a diving arm mixer but close!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: EthanPizza on April 16, 2021, 12:00:17 AM
I've had the same issue. The salt in the water really tightens up the starter.

Like yourself, I add the salt at the end. I hold back a bit of water and after a rough mix add the salt and held back water and squish it all in there. Like the Tartine bread method.


Yup. Otherwise, i just mix it in with flour and that seems fine as well!
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: EthanPizza on April 16, 2021, 12:01:07 AM
Apologies if unrelated . . . I add salt to flour and mix with spoon or whisk, measure water, then add Sourdough to water and whisk in. Two bowls, I add the flour and salt mix to the water sourdough mix, slowly mixing with my fingers, then my hands . . .not exactly a diving arm mixer but close!

Yeah 90% of the time this is my method.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: MicheleR on April 16, 2021, 10:11:58 AM

After all the flour is in mixed in, you only let it mix for 5 more minutes?
Is it a problem that im mixing 10-12 minutes ?

100% Caputo (my typical batch is ~1.3kg flour)
62.5% Water at about 40-45F (play with this over time in a range of 60-64%)
3.0% Salt (I would not go lower than 2.5% or more than maybe 3.1%)
1.3% Ischia Culture (fully active) NO FRESH YEAST, IDY, or ADY!!! Trust your culture. The hydration and flour you use in your culture donít matter much at quantities this low.  Iím probably a little stiffer than 100%, but I doubt it is significant.

1) Dissolve the salt in the water.
2) Mix in the culture until itís pretty well dissolved. I use a hand whisk and froth it up some too.
3) Quickly add about 2/3 of the flour and mix (I use a KitchenAid K5SS) until basically homogeneous. I use the dough hook in my hand to get all the flour wet quickly, and then I put it on the mixer.
4) Add the remaining 1/3 of the flour evenly over the next 5 minutes or so allowing each addition to become incorporated before adding the next bit.
5) Mix until generally smooth and homogenous. It wonít get completely smooth and silky yet. It will still have a bit of a rough look when you stop the mixer. Itís going to feel somewhat tacky and rather soft.
6) Dump it onto a counter, give it 20 or so kneads until it is fairly stiff, cover with plastic or a bowl, and let it rest for 7-10 minutes. In the summer, I put it on a plate and let it rest (covered) in the fridge.
7) It will have relaxed noticeably. Stretch and fold it 4 or 5 times. Watch this video if you donít know what I mean by stretch and fold: http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough.  It will get stiff again and get some tears on the surface. Cover and let it rest again for another 7-10 minutes. Remember to try to capture air in the dough as you do your stretch and folds.
8] Give it a few more stretch and folds. If it is now silky smooth, youíre done. If not, give it one more rest and a few more stretch-and-folds, and you should be good to go.
9) Put it in a container and let it ferment in bulk for 24 hours at ~65F. Ideally, you will see virtually no rise after 24 hours. You should maybe start to see some tiny little bubbles forming. This is how I do my bulk ferment: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18509.msg179991.html#msg179991
10) Ball the dough (make them tight without tearing the skin) and let ferment another 20-24 hours. I use lightly oiled individual Rubbermaid tubs. I use 250g balls for a 13Ē pizza. If you want a very large cornice, use 275g.

Dough trays are fine too but a little touchier as the balls will come together and will need to be cut apart and lifted out with a scraper. With the lightly oiled tubs, the dough ball just rolls right out onto your flour pile. Start the ball fermentation at ~65F in the same set-up you use for your bulk. After 12 hours, youíll have to pay attention to what is going on and either keep it at 65F or let it warm as high as 78F or so to get the balls ready when you want them ready.

After doing it a couple times, you get a handle on how changes in temperature affect activity. It can be quite variable. Sometime I need to keep the balls at 65F for almost the entire time. Sometimes the last 10 hours or so may be 78F. Ideally, at least the last couple hours will be at 78F or so. You get a little better oven rise performance when the dough is warmer (though leoparding may be better when the dough is cooler).  More times than not, I end up keeping my dough balls at 65F or so for about 18 hours and then bring them up to 78F for the final 4+ hours. If you want a temperature between 65F and 78F, open the door of the cooler but leave the ice block in there. If you really need to slow things down, stick the balls in the fridge for 15-20 minutes or so. You may have to do this several times. Donít go longer. You really donít want the dough to get too cold especially if it is close to the time you want to bake it.

Your culture, how active it is, temperature and temperature stability will all affect things. So will hydration and salinity if you vary them. You really need to experiment some to dial things in exactly where you want them and to understand what adjustments you need to make as environmental conditions change.

Pictures:
1) Adding the remaining flour Ė the dough kind of tears up and incorporates air as it comes back together.
2) The dough is ready to come out of the mixer.
3) The dough is stiff after the 20 kneads and needs a rest.
4) The dough is now relaxed, but you can see how it is not yet smooth. Capture air in the dough as you stretch and fold.
5) Notice how smooth it is now after a couple rests and stretch and folds. A couple more until it is stiff and itís ready for the bulk ferment.
6) How I like the bulk dough to look just before balling Ė the only signs of activity are tiny little bubbles.
7) This bulk dough has too much activity. Cut back your yeast or temperature. I donít want to feel gas, and I donít want bubbles of gas coming to the surface when I form, the balls.
8] This dough ball is about ready to bake.
9) This is about the most rise I want to see in a dough ball.

EDIT (7/3/15): For a current link for the Bertinet Gourmet video, see http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough.html
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 18, 2021, 05:25:55 PM
Here's one of my 16% starters, I tend to do cannoto, but I'll be trying a more traditional with your recipe.

What's your fermentation temp?
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: EthanPizza on April 20, 2021, 12:24:10 AM
What's your fermentation temp?

I ferment at Room temp of 70 to 72. Fridge is whatever preset is on my fridge lol prolly 36?

Check out these two pics. Cooked both tonight. Identical recipe ( 64% super nuvola, 24% caputo pizzeria, 12% caputo tipo 1 @62% HR or 65% including starter) Both at 16% starter. Followed your chart for the leopard one. So it was like 13 hours at my room temp. Other one, I bulked in fridge 72 hours after 30 minute bench rest, then another 4.5 hours room temp before cooking. Didnt get the spotting, but it was vastly superior. Softer but less chew  with crisper bite. Tomorrow I'll try 4 to 5% starter for 21 to 24 hours room temp in hopes of improving. My 3% starter at 24 hours room temp was the most sour and flat pizza ever lol. That one doesnt deserve to be posted lol.
Title: Re: How I make my NP dough
Post by: EthanPizza on April 21, 2021, 08:57:57 AM
Tonight's pizzas came out good. 1st pic is 16% starter 4 days in fridge and 6 hours room temp

Second pic is the same, except it is 12 room temp, 24 in fridge, 6 room temp.

While both were great, the second pic was a little better in terms of soft and tender, but that also could be due to oven temp.