Wow,thats alot of stuff there! I look forward to any experiments you try or do.They are always good reading.
:)
Norma,
Edna probably saw all of the pizzas that you have featured on your blog and concluded that you are a real pizza making machine and will need more than just a small sample size of their products. Or maybe she figures that her company and its products will get a lot of publicity on the forum.
Peter
Norma,
I had this funny scenario in mind,using some enhanced dough ingredients to make doughs super elastic or super extensible.Maybe like a silly commercial would film it as such.
It goes something like this...."Can your dough Do THIS? "
"Pizza maker stretches what seems to be an ordinary dough out by hand,then throws it up into the air to spin it.It spins and grows so large in size, it falls down on top of his head and covers his entire body down to the floor!"
:-D
Do you have any suggestions where I should start in the experiments with these products? I didn’t open the boxes yet, so I have no idea what they look like.
Norma,
Since you recently did a lot of work on the Bisquick mixes, maybe the instant pizza dough product would be a good place to start.
At some point it would be nice to see a brief description of the Caravan products that were sent to you and what they are supposed to do. Recommended usage levels would also be useful. In some cases, especially if the usage levels are low, you may want to make multiple weighings of an amount of the products in order to be able to convert small weights of the products to volume measurements, as you did recently with some of your dough enhancer blends. That conversion data will allow you to use one of the fields in the expanded dough calculating tool.
Peter
I agree that since I have done work on the Bisquick mixes, and they are almost instant doughs, using Stretch Out would be a good place to start. Do you have any ideas about what kind of flour I should use in the experiment, what hydration, or amount of time from starting the dough to the final bake?
| Flour (100%): Water (63%): IDY (0.833%): Stretch-Out (4%): Total (167.833%): | 356.61 g | 12.58 oz | 0.79 lbs 224.66 g | 7.92 oz | 0.5 lbs 2.97 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp 14.26 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs 598.51 g | 21.11 oz | 1.32 lbs | TF = 0.105 |
Norma,
You might want to send an email to Edna to get a general idea as to what kinds of doughs and flours the Stretch-Out product can be used with. However, I see that the information you posted earlier gives a pizza dough formulation, as follows:
Stretch -Out is a no-time base for pizza dough , tortillas, Pita bread and other doughs requiring extensibility.
Features:
1. Produces bread that stretches easily without “snap back”.
2. Recommended 4 lbs. to 100 lbs. flour
Ingredients:
Salt, Vegetable Shortening (Partially Hydrogenated Soybean, Cottonseed, and/or Canola Oils), Dextrose, Corn Starch, Mono-and Diglycerides, Soy Flour, Contains 2% or less of each of the following: L-Cysteine, Ascorbic Acid, Enzyme
Pizza Dough
Ingredients
Patent flour 100 lbs.
Stretch-Out 4 lbs.
Water (Variable) 52 %
Yeast, Compressed (Variable) 2.50 lbs.
Total weight 158.50 lbs.
Procedure: mix in mixer (low) 1 minutes
Continue mixing for 10 minutes
Dough temp. 78 degrees
Floor time 10 minutes
Patent flour in the above formulation can cover several different flours but the hydration noted above would seem to most closely match cake flour. However, I have seen low hydrations for flours with much more protein, including high-gluten flour, an example of which is the Big Dave Ostrander dough formulation given at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg5976.html#msg5976. But working with such a low hydration dough can be a real bear, especially with a home mixer like a KitchenAid stand mixer. Of course, you could increase the hydration and use a stronger flour, and otherwise follow the formulation given above but substitute IDY for compressed yeast. Presumably, the Stretch-Out product, which includes partially hydrogenated oil, would replace oil that you might normally use with your regular dough. The dextrose in the Stretch-Out product would be a substitute for sugar in the dough and, being a simple sugar, it would be immediately available to feed the yeast, much as occurs with the Bisquick and other mixes you played around with. The compressed yeast in the above formulation is 2.5%, but that would convert to 0.833% for IDY. That value is quite common for an emergency type dough. The L-cysteine would be used to soften the dough so that it is quite extensible. The mono- and diglycerides are fats (oils) and most likely are used for their common function as emulsifiers.
One of the things I would be interested in knowing, and maybe Edna has the answer, is whether any additional salt is needed above and beyond the salt in the Stretch-Out product. As you can see from the Stretch-Out ingredients list above, salt is the predominant ingredient in the product. If no additional salt is needed, a basic Lehmann dough modified to use the Stretch-Out product at the recommended 4% rate might look like this for a 16" pizza (using an unused field in the expanded dough calculating tool for the Stretch-Out product):Note: No bowl residue compensation
Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.833%):
Stretch-Out (4%):
Total (167.833%):356.61 g | 12.58 oz | 0.79 lbs
224.66 g | 7.92 oz | 0.5 lbs
2.97 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
14.26 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs
598.51 g | 21.11 oz | 1.32 lbs | TF = 0.105
You will note from the above that I did not convert the weight of the Stretch-Out product to a volume measurement. The information you provided does not include that information, presumably because it is not nutrition information that is required to be recited. You would have to weigh a certain amount of the Stretch-Out product several times, note the average, and divide by a number of teaspoons that corresponds to the amount of the product you weighed. For example, you could weigh 1/4 cup (level) of the Stretch-Out product several times on your digital scale, average the weighings, and divide by 12. That will be the teaspoon weight.
For your information, the 50 pounds of the Stretch-Out product that you received will allow you to make 1600 Lehmann 16" pizzas based on the above modified Lehmann formulation. That assumes you don't spill any of the Stretch-Out product. I know you will be careful so as not to do that. :-D. Waste not, want not.
Peter
Norma,
This is all quite hilarious. I can't imagine that Caravan can't use small samples for someone like you and your volume at market.
I agree with you that it makes sense to stick with a Lehmann dough if that is a viable option. Based on the dough formulation that came wth the Stretch-Out product, I think it should be a good option but it might make sense to wait to get an answer from Edna on the salt before proceeding further (unless you want to run a simple test anyway). I mentioned the Big Dave recipe only because I recalled that it had a very low hydration for a dough using high-gluten flour.
If you are able to use a Lehmann dough, I would think that the dough should be ready to use in a few hours. I noticed in this regard that the instructions for the Stretch-Out dough are silent as to water temperature. I take that as being intentional since if one were to use water at a temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F, the dough at that temperature would be quite extensible in its own right and wouldn't need the L-cysteine or anything else to achieve that result. It may be that the Stretch-Out product makes using warm or hot water unnecessary. You might ask Edna about that too. I'd also like to know what the corn starch is for.
Peter
Norma,
I hadn't thought earlier to do any Googling on the Caravan products that were shipped to you, but I did a bit of searching tonight and found a website, at http://www.stovercompany.com/Manufacturer.aspx?PageID=9, where you can order most of the Caravan products online. I did a search at that website on Caravan products and saw that they sell the Caravan Dough Freeze product for $82.89 (50-lb. container), the EL-7 product for $78.80 (50-lb. container) and the Stretch-Out product for $54.46 (50-lb. container). I did not see the Fridge Soft product.
So, if you run out, you now know another place where you can get replenishments :-D.
Peter
I might try to register at the innovadex.com website sometime, to see what other product informations are or if I would be able find out more about the products I do have to test. I didn’t see where to register, but I will find it.
It is interesting you thought about using Stretch-Out or PZ-44 for my preferment Lehmann dough when using one of my dough enhancers. Those regular Lehmann dough and the preferment Lehmann dough with the blends did become stiff after adding the blends. That could be an experiment for the future.
Norma,
For the record, you used the Baker's Non-Fat Dry Milk field in the expanded dough calculating tool for the Stretch-Out product and you did not convert the weights to volume measurements. Is that correct, or did you actually do a weight-to-volume conversion (using your scale) and so noted the conversions in the output of the expanded dough calculating tool?
Peter
Norma,
I think I would just force some of the Stretch-Out product into your measuring cup (tared) to fill it as completely as possible, level it off, and weigh it. I don't think that it is necessary to do multiple weighings and averaging several weighings. Another way might be to melt some of the Stretch-Out product, fill the (tared) measuring cup to the top, and weigh it.
Peter
Norma,
I wondered what would happen to the Stretch-Out product if you heated it. Since the product is intended to be used right out of its container, I would go with your weighings in solid form. On that basis, a teaspoon would weigh [(77 + 78 + 78)/3]/12 = 6.47 grams (0.23 ounces).
Peter
Norma,
You will be using 14.26 grams of the Stretch-Out product. That comes to 14.26/6.47 = a bit less than 2 1/4 teaspoons. Salt is the predominant ingredient in the Stretch-Out product by weight. However, I have to believe that the salt can't be so excessive as to produce an essentially inedible end product. Maybe Edna will shed some light on the salt content.
Peter
Caravan will not release percentages of what is in the base – sorry.
I don’t know why I thought the Stretch-Out was a powder, but just a little while ago, I opened the cardboard box and inside there is a big blue plastic bag. The Stretch-Out product is almost like ice cream when scooping it out. It is also grainy.
Peter,
I was going to do weight-to-volume conversion, but when I saw the Stretch-Out product wasn’t a powder substance, I didn’t know how to go about the weight-to-volume conversion, because I thought if I put the Stretch-Out into a 1/4 cup measuring cup, how would I know each time if I had weighed it right on my scale, because I would have had to compact it with a spoon or something in the 1/4 cup measuring cup. Would that have been an okay way to measure it? I wasn’t sure, since it wasn’t a powder substance.
Norma
I guess they don’t want to tell the ingredients by percentage so someone could exactly figure out how to make the Stretch-Out products.
Norma,
Following up on Reply 21 in which I discussed how to treat the Stretch-Out product, I did a search of the PMQ Think Tank archives to see if Tom Lehmann ever posted on how to handle shortening when used as part of a dough formulation, that is, whether it can be added directly to the flour or after the dough has been mixed for a while. As you can see from Tom's PMQTT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6110&p=38155&hilit=#p38163, the answer turns on whether the shortening is in liquid or solid form. If it is liquid, then it should go in after the initial mix, much like oil, whereas if the shortening is solid, as is the case with the Stretch-Out product, it can be added to the flour. This suggest that you could perhaps combine all of your ingredients in a "goody bag" form if you wish. This would be consistent with the way that the Bisquick mixes are made. It is also consistent with the Caravan instructions for using the Stretch-Out product to make a pizza dough.
Peter
Norma,
Did you ask if the L-Cysteine was made from hair or by mutant E. coli?
CL
Can you estimate the salt and shortening content from the nutritional information? It looks like they are the only meaningful sources of sodium and fat.
CL
The best way is probably water immersion. Put 1 3/4 cup of water in a 2 cup measuring cup and then put in enough Strech-out to raise the water line (with the Strech-out pushed under the surface) to 2 cups. You will then have exactly 1/4 cup of Strech-out. Measuring out 1 cup of Stech-out the same way and then diving by 4 will minimize measurement error.
CL
Norma,
Did you ask if the L-Cysteine was made from hair or by mutant E. coli?
CL
Craig,
This is the post at PMQTT that Tom Lehmann answered me about L-Cysteine. http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9046&p=63356#p63060
Norma
I was just poking fun as you had commented previously about it coming from hair. I'm not sure "synthetically" is the right word as it is producued via mutant E. Coli - not a chemical reaction which is what I would associate with "synthetic." Not that it makes any difference. Chemically, it wouldn't be any different than if it was produced from hair. They didn't change the method because somebody thought hair was gross. Using bacterial fermentation is less expensive.
CL
Norma,
It looks like a successful outcome. Did you detect any issues with the salt, either the crust being too bland or too salty?
I suspect that the large amount of yeast (0.883% IDY), together with the hot water, were mostly responsible for the rise in the dough and the oven spring. Using about 0.80% IDY and hot water are common for many emergency type doughs. The gluten cellular structure of such doughs is frequently not strong because the carbon dioxide production is so high and occurs so fast that the dough expands like a balloon, but a weak one that is prone to collapse if held too long. Since the pizzas are baked very quickly, before the dough can collapse or recede, you can end up with good oven spring.
I believe that what the Stretch-Out product does is to provide fat (partially hydrogenated oils), sugar (dextrose) and salt without having to add these to a basic dough recipe, and providing the L-cysteine to insure that the dough doesn't become "bucky". The ascorbic acid might help provide an acidic environment for the yeast, and the mono- and diglycerides help emulsify the fats.
There are a couple of things you might want to try in future experiments. One would be to try using high-gluten flour, as you usually do with your Lehmann doughs. The second would be to use normal water temperature, not hot water. Using hot water in a dough iself helps overcome a bucky dough condition. It would be interesting to see if the L-cysteine makes using hot water unnecessary. Maybe Edna can tell you if such is the case.
Peter
Norma,
Exciting results.
What % by weight of flour was the Stretch-out?
C:
I had wondered why you had suggested the 0.883% IDY for the yeast amount. Now I think I understand why you picked that value. I wonder what amount Edna would suggest.
Norma,
Here is the link to the Lentz website: http://www.lentzmilling.com/. I believe that what you are looking for is a partially hydrogenated oil, such as partially hydrogenated soybean or cottonseed oil, or even a combination of those two oils. There should be nothing else in the compositions.
Peter
Norma,
Many pizza operators resort to emergency doughs when they either run out of their regular dough or something happens, like an overnight power failure, that renders the regular dough unusable. Tom Lehmann believes that one shouldn't ordinarily run out of dough with proper planning but he does approve of using emergency doughs as a result of something unexpected like a power failure. Usually the emergency dough is a version of the regular dough but with more yeast and hotter water. In your case, if you are satisfied with the Lehmann dough with the Stretch-Out product, that could become your emergency dough version for use at market. It is unlikely to be the equal of your preferment Lehmann dough but most customers, if they even notice that the slices taste different, aren't likely to balk, especially under the circumstances.
Peter
Norma,
That was a good experiment if only to tell you that you can't go too high with the hydration, whether it is the amount of water or the "wetness" that is contributed by the oil and honey. If your stand was hot also, and you didn't get the finished dough temperature to about 78 degrees F, that might also have contributed to the extensibility of the dough.
I would save the photos. You can show them to people and tell them that you field dressed a hog at your stand at market.
Peter
Norma,
I hope the photos that you sent to Edna weren't the "field dressed pig entrails" photos at Reply 61 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg141261.html#msg141261. Those photos might not make good advertising copy for the Stretch Out product for Caravan :-D.
I agree with you that the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation is a good choice to use the EL-7 product with. However, since the really active ingredient in that product is the L-cysteine, which ensures a less bucky dough, I think I would use a high-gluten flour. It is that type of flour that is likely to produce an elastic dough that should benefit from the EL-7.
By way of recapitulation, the ingredients in the EL-7 product are as follows: Wheat flour, salt, soy oil, contains 2% or less of L-Cysteine, Ascorbic Acid, Enzyme. Since you are using the EL-7 product at only 0.375% of the total flour weight, I don't think that there should be any need to adjust the total flour, salt or oil quantities for your basic Lehmann dough. One thing you might consider, however, is to use a much lower hydration than usual so as to intentionally create a stiff and potentially bucky/elastic dough. That might be a better test of the EL-7 product than using it with a more hydrated dough. If you use your regular Lehmann hydration, you might end up with a dough that runs away from you as you try to open up the dough ball. However, that might lead to another set of interesting photos for you to send to Edna :-D.
Peter
Norma,
What size Lehmann pizza will you be making and with what thickness factor?
Peter
| High-Gluten Flour (100%): Water (57%): IDY (0.375%): Morton's Kosher Salt (1.75%): Olive Oil (1%): EL-7 (0.375%): Total (160.5%): | 378.5 g | 13.35 oz | 0.83 lbs 215.74 g | 7.61 oz | 0.48 lbs 1.42 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp 6.62 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.38 tsp | 0.46 tbsp 3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.84 tsp | 0.28 tbsp 1.42 g | 0.05 oz 607.49 g | 21.43 oz | 1.34 lbs | TF = 0.106575 |
Norma,
I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to show you what I have in mind in the way of a dough formulation to play around with using the EL-7 product. For this purpose, I used an unused field in the tool as a proxy for the EL-7 and I assumed that the salt is Morton's Kosher salt:Note: Bowl residue compensation = 1.5%
High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.375%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
EL-7 (0.375%):
Total (160.5%):378.5 g | 13.35 oz | 0.83 lbs
215.74 g | 7.61 oz | 0.48 lbs
1.42 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
6.62 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.38 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.84 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
1.42 g | 0.05 oz
607.49 g | 21.43 oz | 1.34 lbs | TF = 0.106575
You will note from the above that I used a hydration of 57%. Hopefully that will be low enough to give the EL-7 product a chance to show what it can do to make the dough softer and more extensible. I also used 0.375% IDY on the assumption that you might use a one-day cold fermentation of the dough. You can, of course, change that to whatever you would like based on your prior experience working with the Lehmann doughs.
I wouldn't worry about the effects of the salt and oil in the EL-7 product on the rest of the dough. To test the effects of the salt and oil on the Lehmann dough formulation given above, I did a few simple calculations in which I assumed first that all of the EL-7 product is salt and then that all of the EL-7 product is oil (which we know, of course, is not true). These calculations would have the effect of increasing the total formula salt from 1.75% to about 2.1% salt and to about 1.4% oil. These values are in the normal range. The actual final values will be less. As previously noted, the predominant ingredient in the EL-7 product is flour. But the critical component from an operational standpoint is the L-Cysteine, not the flour, salt or oil. I do not believe that Caravan would create a product that messes up a basic dough formula. Otherwise, they would have to tell users the percents of all of the ingredients used in the EL-7 product.
I did not convert the EL-7 to volume measurements in the dough formulation presented above since I did not see any conversion data in the information you provided on that product. You will have to conduct several weighings of a known volume of the EL-7, average the weighings, and convert the average to a volume measurement (e.g., a teaspoon). This is the method that you have used before.
Good luck with your experiment.
Peter
I did weigh out the EL-7 product 5 times in a 1/4 cup measuring cup and the average weight was 20 grams, so I guess the 20 grams is divided by 6.
I made a mistake when I posted on my last post. I weighed the EL-7 out in a 1/4 cup because I had taken my 1/8 cup to market. I then just divided the 1/4 cup measurement in half for 1/8 cup. Really the average of the weighings in the 1/4 cup were 40 grams.
Norma,
Thanks for the corrected values. That means that one teaspoon of the EL-7 product weighs 40/12= 3.33 grams, or 0.11758 ounces, and 1.42 grams is 1.42/3.33 = 0.43 teaspoons, or between 3/8 and 1/2 teapoon. Did I get that right?
Peter
Norma,
Actually, I think your EL-7 test was a good one. It showed that you can take a high-gluten flour and use a relatively low hydration to make the dough out of it (around 57%) and the EL-7 product will soften the dough to the point of allowing ease of opening. However, in your case, the EL-7 product may be a solution in search of a problem. By that, I mean that unless you have a problem opening up dough balls because of excessive elasticity, there really isn't a need to use a product like the EL-7. In your case, you allow a long enough period of fermentation with your Lehmann doughs to make using a product like the EL-7 unnecessary. But, if you had a bucky dough for some reason, the EL-7 product might be a useful conditioner.
The EL-7 product could even be used with your preferment Lehmann dough, or any other dough that uses a preferment or a natural leavening system, and where the acid production is high enough to cause a strengthening of the dough to the point where it is hard to open up the dough balls. Such an application would not be an "artisan" one, but the EL-7 product should solve or mitigate the problem. But, the benefits that come from using the EL-7 come at an added cost. In your case, with the free sample of the EL-7 product that you got from Caravan, I estimate that at 1.42 grams of EL-7 per 16" pizza using the formulation I posted, you can make 15,971 pizzas before you have to cough up the money for more EL-7. So, you may want to be careful as not to spill any of the EL-7 when measuring it out.
With respect to the salt issue, that is an easy one to deal with. If you feel that the finished product is too salty, or your customers complain along the same lines, all you have to do is reduce the formula salt.
I do think that you and Steve--and your customers and food tasters as well--have been spoiled by the high quality pizzas you have been making and selling at market. As you know, there is really nothing wrong with the basic Lehmann dough. But, if you want to kick it up a notch flavor-wise, you have to do the sorts of things you have been doing with the Lehmann formulation, such as using a preferment, natural leavening systems or long fermentation periods. If you tried to serve your customers the basic Lehmann pizza after teasing them with your improved versions, I think that they might start picketing your stand.
Peter
Norma,
To keep things simple and not have to re-do all of the numbers, I would use the EL-7 at the same rate (0.375%) as a percentage of the total formula flour (which will be different than for your last experiment) and add it as part of the final mix. The preferment (poolish) does not need the EL-7; the final mix dough is what benefits from it. The added weight from the EL-7 product is not going to materially affect the total dough weight.
You can read about the protein tightening effect in the fourth paragraph under Advantages in the second Didier Rosada article at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm.
It is possible to reduce the prefermentation time in your Hatco unit, or even its temperature. I wasn't sure if that was an option. I was trying not to change anything that you were doing. You might try shortening the prefermentation time and/or temperature before trying the salt method.
The Big Dave Old Faithful recipe is discussed in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg5976/topicseen.html#msg5976. There apparently were several versions of that recipe but the one you want to use for an EL-7 experiment is the one with 51% hydration or maybe the one with 51.6% hydration (at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg9605.html#msg9605).
Peter
Norma,
In my experience, the two things that have affected the extensibility of my dough the most - each way more than the pH - are they type of flour and the amount I work the dough - particularly the amount I work the dough prior to forming the balls.
Assuming you are using the same flour, is your mixing, kneading, and handling the same from time-to-time? or vice-versa?
With respect to adding salt to your preferment, when I was experimenting with my reverse engineering UPN project, I did a lot of experiments with salt in the preferment. I found that I needed a very small amount (0.1%) to control the enzyme activity (else the final dough was way too weak), however, above this level, I did not like the effect it had on either the smell or the flavor of the preferment (Ischia). You might find this interesting if you have not seen it already: EDIT - I see Pete just posted the Didier Rosada link I was going to give you, but I was thinking you might be interested in the part of the same article discussing salt in the preferment - discussed in the 5th-7th paragraphs under "Secondary effects of the preferment." FYI - After you click on the link Pete gave you, if it does not go straight to the article, click on "impatient" at the bottom of the screen, and the article will pop right up.
CL
I appreciate that someone that has more experience than I do with dough, tries to help me. That is one reason this forum is great!
+1
Peter
Don't sell yourself short. I learn a great deal by following you as well.
CL
Norma,
I agree with Craig. Also, you used 45 minutes of rest periods for the original dough, which most likely improved the hydration (leading to a softer dough) and gave the dough a head start on fermentation.
Peter
Maybe it didn't ferment faster than expected but rather the weaker dough just looks like it is fermenting faster because it has less strength to hold back the expanding gas?
CL
Norma,
Normally, when a product like L-cysteine is used, or a similar product like PZ-44 that contains L-cysteine, the dough is managed like any other dough--without re-balling or anything like that. I think that you should just use your best judgment as to whether re-balling is necessary based on the appearance and structure of the dough. I trust your instincts on these kinds of matters.
Peter
Norma,
I went back to take another look at your dough formulation in Reply 94 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg144582.html#msg144582. I did this because I did not recall that there was anything unusual about the Old Faithful dough recipe that could account for a very high level of activity of a dough made using that recipe. But one possibility that occurred to me when I revisited your Old Faithful dough formulation is the reduced salt level that you used, 1%. When I originally saw that value, I simply assumed that you used the lower salt level to compensate for what you perceived to be an overly salty crust when you last used the EL-7 product. I think that the L-cysteine is partly responsible for the high level of activity of the dough, perhaps along with the fermentation of the dough before cooling, but it is also possible that the low salt level (1%) is contributing to the fast rise of the dough. If it is warm where you are this time of year, that may also be having its effect on the dough. It could well be that there are several forces acting simultaneously on the dough to cause it to rise faster than usual.
Peter
No commercial pizza mix ever made I pie that looks as good as that! Few commercial restaurants have for that matter!
CL
Norma,
You can read a bit more about L-Cysteine and other reducing agents at http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_7REDUC.PDF. It is hard to say how much a reducing agent like L-Cysteine affects fermentation, but perhaps the softening of the gluten matrix facilitates or allows for more effective fermentation. You perhaps would have to do a side by side test using the L-Cysteine (via the EL-7 product) in one of the doughs and none in the other (with slightly less salt). The "Old Faithful" dough recipe would seem to be a good recipe to use this way because of its low hydration value.
Peter
I don’t know what experiment to do next with the EL-7 product.
Norma,
In a broad, generic sense, the EL-7 product seems applicable to any dough that is subject, for whatever reason, to excessive elasticity. It might be because of the type of flour used (high-gluten flours seems to be the main villain from a flour standpoint), or a low hydration dough such as the original Old Faithful dough (around 51%) or a cracker-style dough (in the mid-30% range) that is to be run through a sheeter or roller, or a dough that might be used in a dough press, or a dough that develops excessive strength during fermentation (with the preferment Lehmann dough being an example). I view the EL-7 product to be a solution to problems that cannot otherwise be solved using conventional dough preparation and management methods.
Peter
I can understand the EL-7 would help with almost any kind of dough that has different problems. I don’t have a sheeter or regular roller, but would like to try a really low hydration dough something like a cracker crust. I do have a heavy rolling pin. I don’t think I ever tried a cracker crust before. Do you have any ideas of what cracker style formula I should try with the EL-7 product?
Norma,
I think a cracker style dough is a very good choice for an EL-7 experiment. You might consider using DKM's cracker style dough recipe as given at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizzainnstyle.php. I suggest that recipe because of the low hydration value, 36%. A dough with such a low hydration can be very difficult to roll out in a home setting using a rolling pin. I came up with a solution for that problem that called for using heat to warm up the dough to a temperature of above 90 degrees F before rolling out, using a proofing box I put together to warm up the dough. Using the EL-7 product might be a good substitute for the heating process and make rolling out the dough easier. You can read about my solution at Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49138.html#msg49138. The main difference in the dough recipe given in Reply 16 is that I used a lower thickness factor than I calculated for DKM's recipe. That made my crust crispier rather than cracker like. I like both crust textures but personally prefer the crispier version.
Peter
Thanks for the links about making a cracker style dough with the EL-7 product. 36% hydration is really low. I can understand how a proofing box can help the dough soften. If you remember, I also built a proofing box. I could try the EL-7 to see if it softens the dough enough to roll it out without a proofing box, but also have my proofing box in case the EL-7 doesn’t soften the dough enough. I think I would prefer the crispy crust also, but won’t know until I try. You gave very detailed instructions on how to make the dough and pizza. What I wonder is because I don’t have a dark anodized nonperforated cutter pan, is there another pan that you would suggest to use that I might have?
Norma,
If you have another type of pan that is large enough to contain the skin/pizza, I think that should work. It might even be perforated. In a pinch, you might try using a pizza screen, at least until the skin is prebaked enough to slide onto a preheated pizza stone to finish prebaking (I have not tried a pizza screen myself but I vaguely recall that another member said it would work). One of the advantages of a cutter pan, or any similar pan (including a disk), is that you can put the sauce, cheese and toppings right to the outer edge without fear that the cheese and/or toppings will spill over the sides when shuffling the pizza into the oven. Covering the edges of the pizza might also discourage a defined rim from forming, even with docking. Ideally, you want the entire pizza to be flat.
Peter
Norma,
For a first try at the cracker style, I would say that you did really well. I think that you would find that a dark anodized cutter pan does a better job than a plain aluminum one.
Would you say that the EL-7 product was useful in making the cracker style dough and rolling it out?
Peter
Do you have any ideas about what I could do differently the next time to get better results?
Norma,
I think the only change I would make is to increase the amount of the EL-7 product. Of course, the actual amount will depend on the recipe you decide to use next time and the amount of flour called for in that recipe. You might also roll out the dough to make a slightly larger skin than the final desired size to offset the possibililty that the skin shrinks a bit as it cools after rolling. If the skin doesn't shrink, that might be an indication that the EL-product prevents or minimizes the shrinkage. That would be a good piece of information to know.
Peter
Norma,
I have been viewing the EL-7 product as a potential substitute for the proofing box, to see if the EL-7 product alone can improve the rolling out process (see Reply 122 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg145761.html#msg145761). I notice that you used both the EL-7 product and the proofing box for the last two cracker-style pizzas. You might try just the EL-7 product to see if it works on a dough of very low hydration to allow the dough to roll out easily, without forcing it. If it doesn't work well enough, you might still have the option of using the proofing box after regathering the rolled out dough.
Peter
How long do you think I should let the dough with the EL-7 product ferment at room temperature, before trying to roll out the dough? I can understand that would be a good test for the El-7 product.
I think I would let the next dough ferment at room temperature for about a half hour, or even less if the dough will be at market with temperatures in the 90s. You might try rolling out the dough after the initial proof period and if the dough balks to rolling (is overly elastic), then I think I would let the dough proof for another half hour. If the EL-7 product is going to work meaningfully for a cracker-style dough, one hour of proof should be enough in my opinion.
Peter
Norma,
You might check the dough again when you return home from market today to see if it can be rolled out easily. If not, you might refrigerate the dough overnight to see if the EL-7 product simply needs more time to do its thing. Then, tomorrow, after a reasonable temper time at market, you might try again to see if the dough rolls out any better. If not, then your test would suggest that the EL-7 product does not do as well with a very low hydration dough, especially in a home setting using a rolling pin. Maybe a commercial sheeted/roller is needed.
Peter
I'd like to try that dough with nothing more than a good bit of parmesan cheese on top. Maybe a touch of rosemary and black bepper too. Cooked crisp, it would be like cheese crackers. You could sell it with a cup of warm sauce on the side for dipping.
CL
Norma,
What do your customers think of the cracker-style vs. your other pies?
CL
Norma,
As I understand it, you used DKM's cracker style dough formulation at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizzainnstyle.php but modified in accordance with Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg146068.html#msg146068, including the use of the EL-7 product. If so, can you answer the following questions?:
1. Are you looking for a more cracker-like crust or a crispy one? A cracker-like crust by my definition would be somewhat thicker than a crispy crust and more tender than a crispy crust. A cracker-like crust might break along a clean line rather than shatter.
2. What type and brand of flour did you use?
3. What is the size of your pan?
4. After you trimmed the skin to fit your pan, did you weigh it?
Peter
Norma,
I think that often the confusion about the cracker style of pizza stems from semantics. For example, the terms "cracker", "cracker style", "cracker-like", "crackery", "crunchy", and "crispy" can mean different things to different people. Even the term "tender" has a different meaning in the context of the cracker style pizza than for other types of crusts. The DKM recipe you have been using is DKM's interpretation of a true cracker style crust that was popularized by Pizza Inn many years ago. Yet, I have seen the above terms used for pizza crusts that, in my opinion, are quite different than the DKM Pizza Inn type of crust. Examples include the Chicago cracker style pizza, such as the Vito & Nick's pizza (see also Tom Lehmann's recipe at the PMQ Recipe Bank at http://pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_161/title_Chicago-Cracker-Style-Pizza-Crust/ (http://pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_161/title_Chicago-Cracker-Style-Pizza-Crust/)), the DeLorenzo pizzas, the Monical and Round Table pizzas, and even the Mack's pizzas. Sometimes the above terms are also used with terms like chewy to describe other parts of a pizza crust. As we have learned, it is not always easy to make any pizza identically every time. A pizza intended to have a soft crust can have chewy and cracker-like parts and, conversely, a pizza intended to be cracker-like can have soft, chewy parts.
If you would like to try to find the species of cracker style pizza that you like the best, and at the same time learn something about the different possible textural characteristics of a cracker style crust, I would like to suggest the following. I suggest that you make two pizzas that are identical in every way, except for the thickness factor. For one of the pizzas, I would use a thickness factor for the skin as it is fitted into the pan of 0.09. For the other pizza, I would use a thickness factor of about 0.05-0.06 for the skin as it is fitted in its pan. The reason I asked you the questions about the pan size and the weight of the skin in the pan was to be able to determine the corresponding thickness factor. Knowing that might have allowed me to explain your results. If you decide to conduct the test suggested above, you can use the EL-7 product for both doughs, or you can run the test without that product (and use your proofing box if necessary). If you choose to use the EL-7 product, you can post your results in this thread. If you'd like, you can also make the two pizzas on separate occasions so long as they are identical as much as possible but for the thickness factor as discussed above. Hopefully, making the two pizzas you will experience different crust textures from which you may develop a preference or, in the alternative, get ideas for improvement if you decide to proceed further with that style.
The question about the type and brand of flour was raised because the type of flour used for the cracker style pizza can make a difference. As DKM has noted, the three basic kinds of white flour, including all-purpose flour, bread flour and high-gluten flour, can all be used to make the DKM cracker style pizza. I personally found that I liked the Harvest King/Better for Bread flour better than all-purpose flour, whereas other members indicated that their favorite flour was a high-gluten flour. Bread flour and high-gluten flour promote increased crust flavor and increased crust coloration. I briefly touched upon the flour issue at Reply 159 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg71979.html#msg71979 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg71979.html#msg71979) (note also the discussion of crust chararacteristics) and also in Reply 135 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg53189.html#msg53189. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg53189.html#msg53189.) In Reply 135 I also espoused a pet theory of mine that a thin cracker style crust has a different impact on the palate because each bite of a cracker style pizza has proportionately less crust in each bite than with most other pizzas with much thicker crusts (assuming the same things on the pizzas). If my theory is right, that might help explain why you seem to prefer thicker crusts over thinner crusts. Or it may simply be a case that you just don't like cracker style crusts and pizzas, based on flavor, crust characteristics or maybe even both.
Peter
One thing that makes me curious about this style of pizza is how long in total time it takes to bake. With the skin having such a low TF, I would think the total baking time would be shorter.
Norma,
In my oven using my cutter pan, I pre-baked the skins at around 475 degrees F for 4 or 5 minutes (or until the pre-baked skins start to take on color) and, after dressing the pizzas, for about another 7 or 8 minutes at 475 degrees F. It is the long bake at lower than usual temperatures that helps drive out the moisture and produce a dry, crispy or cracker-like crust. The thickness factor is material but only when considered with the low hydration value. At a much higher hydration value, it would take longer to get the crust dry. A major limiting factor of all cracker-style crusts is the hydration value. Once you start to get above about 40-45%, it gets harder to achieve a cracker or crispy quality. In my opinion, you have a much better shot in the mid-30s hydration range.
Peter
Norma,
Often what happens when you bake a pizza at too high a temperature is that the crust takes on the desired degree of coloration but before the rest of the pizza has finished baking. As a result, the crust can be softer and more tender than desired. I think in your case you might try making the pizzas at home since that would simulate the way that I made my cracker-style pizzas and from which I developed my personal preferences.
I will do some research on typical bake temperatures for commercial cracker-style pizzas. I seem to recall that one of our members who went on to open up his own pizzeria, where I believes he serves a cracker-style pizza, talked about his baking methods over at the PMQ Think Tank.
Peter
Norma,
You did a good job finding the two former members of this forum who now have their own pizzerias. I was specifically thinking of pcuezze (Patrick) because I recalled that he was using a version of DKM's cracker-style recipe, which he developed while he was active on our forum. What I found interesting is that both Patrick and deaconvolker (Deacon Volker on our forum) discussed using a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time. No doubt, this can mean different things in different ovens. Patrick was/is using a double deck Blodgett oven for his thin cracker style pizzas whereas deaconvolker is using a conveyor oven. At one point, I am pretty sure that Patrick posted photos via a link but when I found the link and tried to open it, it was no longer operative.
I thought that you might be interested in the following PMQ Think Tank thread: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7922&p=55172#p54479. From the information that Patrick posted in that thread on the skin he used for the cracker style pizza, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.06 (in a later post he mentions a thickness factor of 0.55-0.58 but I am sure he meant 0.055-0.058). The 0.06 value is one that I mentioned to you to get a crispy crust version of DKM's cracker style pizza. You might also note Tom Lehmann's comment at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7922&p=55172#p54899 where he mentions using PZ-44 with a low hydration dough to "get the dough to press out decently". As you know, PZ-44 includes L-Cysteine, which is also one of the ingredients in the EL-7 product that you have been testing with DKM's basic recipe.
You might also find these threads/posts by Patrick of interest: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7614.msg65298.html#msg65298 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10310.msg90547.html#msg90547.
Peter
Norma,
I also tried using my basic KitchenAid stand mixer to make a DKM cracker-style pizza dough and, in so doing, like Patrick, I used the paddle (flat beater) attachment in lieu of the C-hook. I discussed my results at Reply 49 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49400.html#msg49400. For the dough described in that post, I used the Harvest King/Better for Bread flour. I might have tried the KASL flour but by that time I had used up all of my KASL flour and did not want to buy a new 50-pound bag because of the problems I have here in Texas with flour bugs and their rampant sexual promiscuity that goes on in my pantry. That is one of the reasons why I now stick to what I can find in my local supermarkets and buy in small quantities. In your case, you should feel free to use whatever flour you want, except I would not use all-purpose flour this time.
With respect to the piece of dough that you have that weighs 101 grams, if you want to make a small pizza out of it using a thickness factor of say, 0.06, the size of the pizza comes to two times the square root of (101)/(28.35)/(3.14159 x 0.06) = 8.7", or a bit shy of 9". I wouldn't worry about the skin being exactly round. The purpose of the test would be to get an idea as to the character of the crust when baked in your home oven. Of course, you may have to adjust the bake times because of the small size of the pizza.
Peter
If I must say so myself, my home oven made a big difference, in the scrap dough I used for the cracker-style pizza. The cracker-style pizza made today was really very enjoyable, and not tough like the last 3 attempts at market. Each bite was crackery, crisp, and tender. I really enjoy this style of pizza now. I almost was ready to give up, on the cracker-style pizza, because I sure wasn’t liking my results before. I now think I found a new kind of pizza I really like. I ate three small slices of this pie.
Norma,
I'm glad that things worked out better for you this time with the cracker-style pizza you made. I'm glad that I was able to talk you back in off of the ledge :-D. I, too, had a rough time with the cracker style when I first experimented with it. But, I stuck with it, refusing to let it beat me. I eventually concluded that the skin thickness (thickness factor) was an important component to success, along with being able to get the dough in good enough condition to be able to roll it out easily and quickly. The use of a cutter pan was also an important component for my particular oven and home application. For me, the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg48991.html#msg48991 became my "bible" for the cracker style because it was pretty much self contained with a lot of detailed dough formulations and instructions and techniques and hints for many different variations of DKM's recipe and a lot of other useful information and guidance that John Fazzari, BTB, Jon (Jackitup) and a few other members contributed to that style.
Had I thought of it, I would have mentioned earlier that I, too, found that I could use scrap dough to make a small cracker style pizza, as I noted at Reply 32 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49257.html#msg49257. In that instance, I used a lamination method and I did not pre-bake the skin but the skin had a thickness factor of about 0.06, as I have mentioned before as being a good value for my purposes. If you decide to use scrap again to make a cracker style pizza, you may want to heed what I learned from an experiment I discussed at Reply 97 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50088.html#msg50088. As I noted there, you can go overboard with a very long fermented dough and end up with some funky crust tastes.
In due course, you might try using a considerably higher thickness factor for comprison purposes and to see if you like the results better than your recent effort.
For your latest dough ball did you use the EL-7 product again and, if so, to what effect? Also, did you weigh the final dough skin? That would allow us to calculate the thickness factor for the skin (I assume a 14" skin from the photos).
Peter
Norma,
What were your observations on these pizzas?
Peter
Norma,
I suspected that you weren't as thrilled with your recent efforts as with the prior one because you did not comment much beyond posting the photos.
In the case of the skin with the thickness factor of around 0.04, I suspect that a good part of the bottom heat passed through the skin quickly to the sauce and toppings. Usually that leaves less heat to brown the bottom crust to the ideal or desired degree of coloration. In fact, the top of the pizza might be done before the bottom crust browns adequately. In my experience, a cracker style crust can hold a lot of stuff on it but I suppose if there are too many things on the crust, or they have a high liquid component, you might end up with a less crispy crust, even when using a thickness factor of only 0.04. I don't think the type of flour is a material factor in the results you achieved.
With respect to the laminated crust you made, at 124 grams and what appears to be a roughly 8" pizza size, that translates to a thickness factor of around 0.087. That is close to what I originally calculated for DKM's recipe as originally posted. For me, that value produced a more tender, less crispy crust. However, when I used a thickness factor of around 0.06 for a laminated skin (roll-and-overlay laminated skin), that produced a crispy finished crust. So, it may be that you have to try to achieve a thickness factor of around 0.06 for the skin to achieve the results you are after. But it may also be that you will have to make adjustments to match the skin with the right pan and oven protocol. As I noted before, I think that professionals who specialize in cracker style crusts are always having to cope with these factors, especially in coping with irregular order flows over the course of a day or where the workers who make the pizzas change often, and that may account for why customers who describe the cracker style pizzas they consume in many of the popular pizzerias specializing in that style do so in terms that are not entirely consistent. With other styles of pizza, I do not think that problem is as pronounced as with the cracker style.
Peter
I would have thought such a thin pie of dough would have baked much faster. That still intrigues me how long a cracker-style pizza takes to bake.
Norma,
The reason for the longer bake time is a matter of basic physics. First, the DKM cracker style dough has a very low hydration--36%. You almost can't use a lower hydration and still be able to form a cohesive dough. The effect of the low hydration is to make the dough stiff and dense. Second, the dough is rolled out. That forces out gases in the dough such that the skin is like a flat piece of cardboard. When such a skin is dressed and subjected to oven heat, most of the heat passes through the skin and works on the cheese, sauce and toppings. In order to get decent bottom crust browning, you have to bake the pizza longer to allow the bottom of the crust to get sufficient heat to turn brown.
To draw a contrast, if the dough has a much higher hydration, it will be softer and expand more easily. The dough is not subjected to rolling to form a skin. In fact, in some cases, it might not even be possible to use a rolling pin to roll out such dough. When such a skin is dressed and baked, the oven heat does not pass through the skin as readily as the one described above. Rather, the dough behaves more like an insulator. As a result, more heat is directed to the bottom of the skin, raising its temperature and promoting increased bottom crust browning (and crispiness).
For additional explanations of the above principles of physics, you might take a look at Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14442.msg145831/topicseen.html#msg145831 and also the links referenced therein.
It occurs to me that it might be possible to reduce or eliminate the oil used in the DKM cracker style dough in order to get a more crispy crust. The oil serves to retain the moisture in the dough and reduce its rate of evaporation, so eliminating or reducing it should allow the crust to finish baking sooner while still being crispy. However, since the oil helps hold the dough together, eliminating or reducing it might require an increase in hydration to hold the dough together and facilitate the rolling out process. The oil also provides flavor and some heat transfer characteristics that might help with final crust coloration. So, I am not sure that eliminating or reducing the amount of oil buys you that much.
I personally think that the DKM cracker style dough recipe is a well balanced recipe. However, to get the results you are looking for requires getting the thickness factor of the final skin right and properly performing the rest of the steps to pre-bake the crust and finish the pizza.
BTW, did you pre-oil the pan you used to pre-bake the skins?
Peter
I have watched and wondered how a frozen or regular preferment dough ball would bake into a pizza, after I have rolled out the skin. Since I do make breadsticks, pizza pinwheels, pizza buns, and garlic knots, and do now roll those preferment Lehmann dough balls (for others product other than pizza), I have watched when rolling, and it seems even with the long rolling there still many bubbles in the dough after rolling. I had wanted to do an experiment for many months, on seeing how that rolled out preferment Lehmann dough would work in making a pizza, and see how much the rim would rise and the bottom crust would bake after the roll out. I never got around to that experiment, but do wonder what would happen.
Do you have any idea how that crust and rim would turn out? Using different methods and different formulas still get me confused, in how a pizza will turn out. I did see Tom Lehmann did post something about this at: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=41080#p41080
I will stay with the current DKM formula, I have used, but add PZ-44 by 2% of the flour weight. Maybe I will eventually be able to understand more about how to get consistent results when using DKM’s recipe. I am not planning on getting consistent results though. Maybe my one successful bake was a fluke.
Norma,
You are a natural when it comes to pizza making and think fast on your feet when confronted with challenges, so I have every confidence that you will succeed with the DKM dough. In line with this objective, I would recommend that you select only one size and practice with it without change until you see the overall pattern of things. I know that you are not fond of math but if you follow the steps (Steps 1-4) I outlined in Reply 180 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg148347.html#msg148347, I think you will get the hang of things after a few tries. Eventually, you would hope to be able to get the proper skin thickness without having to weigh the skins and do the calculations, much like a pizza operator learns from repetition how to make dough consistently well using only volume measurements. I personally will always weigh things since that is the only way I know what to expect, and to help explain the results I get, for better or worse. It's all part of my feedback loop that tells me what to change to make things better.
Peter
Norma,
Are you saying that the pan is oval or is it just slightly out of round, possibly as a result of a manufacturing defect?
Peter
Norma,
Can you measure the perimeter of the pan in inches?
Peter
Norma,
Is your pan an anodized pan or does it have a coating of some sort and, if the latter, will it be able to withstand the temperaratures at which you would bake the pizzas? If the pan is oven safe at high temperatures, I don't see any reason why the pan might not work for a cracker-style pizza.
Peter
What I am wondering is when I get the sample of the dry malt John said he is sending me, what might be the Baker’s percents for the above formula for me to try for a NY style 16” pizza.
Norma,
The baker's percent for the dry malt is 2.5/100 = 2.5%. Unfortunately, the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html does not include dry malt as one of its ingredients, only the liquid form. However, you can use the Non-Diastatic Barley Malt Syrup as a proxy and ignore the volume measurements. For your purposes, you will have to decide on the thickness factor to use in the tool to get the weight of dough to use for a 16" pizza.
The dough formulation you posted does not say the form of yeast to use. You might have to check with John to see which form is intended.
Once you are ready and if you need help with the formulation, let me know.
Peter
I did email John last evening to ask him what kind of yeast was in the formula in the pdf.document he sent me. John sent me an email this morning and said he doesn’t know what type of yeast was used in that formula. I think I will just go with a regular Lehmann dough formula with a hydration of 61% because the amount of water in the formula in the document seems really low to me. I don’t think I have ever made a NY style dough with that low of a hydration. I don’t even know if someone tried that formula out.
Norma,
From the dough formulation you posted and from the related preparation steps, I would say that the 1% yeast is intended to be cake yeast. So, for ADY you would use 0.50% and for IDY you would use about 0.33%. You are correct that the formula hydration is on the low side. It will actually be higher or lower than 52.5% depending on whether the malt product is wet or dry. The 1.5% oil will also have a "wetting" effect. The dough formulation you posted most reminds me of the original Big Dave Ostrander Old Faithful dough formulation.
Peter
Do you think an experiment with the new dry malt product DME 377D that John sent me would be of any use to see what happens with adding DME 377D 50/50 with molasses in a pizza dough, or do you think I should forget the experiment? I have no idea how a pizza dough would turn out using the dried malt product in combination with molasses on a 50/50 amount.
Norma,
Knowing that you had received the DME 377D malt product from John, I did wonder how it might be used to make an MM clone dough, including combining it with molasses. However, since we have been so distracted recently by the steady run of experiments at the MM thread, I did not devote much thought as to how the DME 377D product might be used. What is not clear is how much DME 377D malt product might be used with a molasses product and what effect the combination will have on taste and color. For example, the DME 377D spec sheet shows 65% reducing sugars in the form of anhydrous maltose, but as you can see from the relative sweetness chart at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativesweetness.png, maltose has a relatively low sweetness factor relative to sucrose. If a lot of it has to be used to get the sweetness up, even with a sweetener like the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses or the Steen's 100% pure cane syrup, you may end up with a dough and crust that is too dark. Of course, if the color is of no consequence then you could perhaps use a lot of the DME 377D product.
I think the combination of malt flavor and the flavor of molasses or pure cane syrup might combine to produce a tasty crust. I personally do not think that Mellow Mushroom is using a malt product, so maybe after we have concluded our work over at the MM thread we can think about a way of best using the DME 377D malt product, even if it is not for an MM clone.
Peter