Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough

[norma427]

I had ask sent an email to Caravan Ingredients at Reply 98 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg136195.html#msg136195 and then had conversations with Edna about obtaining some samples for tests in pizza dough with some of the commercial dough enzymes or enchancers, I did have follow-up emails with Edna and she had requested samples for me to do tests.  I didn’t know it, but a couple of days ago, Edna did reply in an email that she was going to send me cases of the commercial products for me to do tests in pizza dough.  I didn’t have any idea of what cases would be.  This morning FedEx delivered the 50 lb. cases of products for me to sample.  They are Stretch-Out, EL-7 and Dough Freeze .  Edna also said I would be getting a case of Fridge soft for tests, but I didn’t get that today.  

I don’t know if any members will be interested in these commercial products or the tests that will be done in pizza dough with these products, but maybe someday they might become available to others members or the tests might be useful, if anyone wants to know more about these products.

If anyone wants more information about these products I can supply the data and facts about these products.  

Receiving these 50 lb. cases of these products will supply me with enough tests to keep me busy for a long while.  Hopefully these products will lead to some interesting experiments and maybe improvements in pizza dough.

These products do mostly say how much of the product to add to 100 lbs. of flour.  I don’t even know how to go about starting to do tests on these products.  I don’t know what I will learn from these experiments with these products, but it could be a learning experience for me and other members, if anyone is interested.

Pictures below

Norma

[chickenparm]

Wow,thats alot of stuff there! I look forward to any experiments you try or do.They are always good reading.

 

[norma427]

Wow,thats alot of stuff there! I look forward to any experiments you try or do.They are always good reading.

 

Bill,

I agree that is a lot of products for experiments.  I never thought I would get 50 lb. boxes to do experiments with. I didn’t look at how heavy the boxes were, but when I went to lift them from the patio, I thought of my word are they ever heavy.  Thanks for saying you look forward to my experiments. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Edna probably saw all of the pizzas that you have featured on your blog and concluded that you are a real pizza making machine and will need more than just a small sample size of their products. Or maybe she figures that her company and its products will get a lot of publicity on the forum.

Peter

[chickenparm]

Norma,

I had this funny scenario in mind,using some enhanced dough ingredients to make doughs super elastic or super extensible.Maybe like a silly commercial would film it as such.

It goes something like this...."Can your dough Do THIS? "

"Pizza maker stretches what seems to be an ordinary dough out by hand,then throws it up into the air to spin it.It spins and grows so large in size, it falls down on top of his head and covers his entire body down to the floor!"
 

[norma427]

Norma,

Edna probably saw all of the pizzas that you have featured on your blog and concluded that you are a real pizza making machine and will need more than just a small sample size of their products. Or maybe she figures that her company and its products will get a lot of publicity on the forum.

Peter

Peter,

I did give Edna a link to my pizza blog, but didn’t tell her I am here on the forum.  I am sure if she did look at my pizza blog, she saw how many kinds of pizzas I have attempted, and also saw the links back here to the forum.  I also told Edna about the homemade dough enhancers I was experimenting with.  Even the Sukie pizza with your “goody bag”, I told Edna about, recently.  Edna said after I start the experiments, she would be really interested in hearing how they are going. 

I don’t know if I am a pizza making machine..lol.., but with all the products she sent me, I could go on for a really long time trying experiments.  I don’t know how many members will be able to try out these products, but after I start the tests, if any of them work out, I would be glad to send other members some samples to try if they want to try some.

Do you have any suggestions where I should start in the experiments with these products?  I didn’t open the boxes yet, so I have no idea what they look like. 

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

I had this funny scenario in mind,using some enhanced dough ingredients to make doughs super elastic or super extensible.Maybe like a silly commercial would film it as such.

It goes something like this...."Can your dough Do THIS? "

"Pizza maker stretches what seems to be an ordinary dough out by hand,then throws it up into the air to spin it.It spins and grows so large in size, it falls down on top of his head and covers his entire body down to the floor!"
 

Bill,

Lol, you always make me chuckle.  If one of these products do what you have explained, I will be sure to dedicate a post to you with pictures of the dough draped over me.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Do you have any suggestions where I should start in the experiments with these products?  I didn’t open the boxes yet, so I have no idea what they look like. 

Norma,

Since you recently did a lot of work on the Bisquick mixes, maybe the instant pizza dough product would be a good place to start.

At some point it would be nice to see a brief description of the Caravan products that were sent to you and what they are supposed to do. Recommended usage levels would also be useful. In some cases, especially if the usage levels are low, you may want to make multiple weighings of an amount of the products in order to be able to convert small weights of the products to volume measurements, as you did recently with some of your dough enhancer blends. That conversion data will allow you to use one of the fields in the expanded dough calculating tool.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Since you recently did a lot of work on the Bisquick mixes, maybe the instant pizza dough product would be a good place to start.

At some point it would be nice to see a brief description of the Caravan products that were sent to you and what they are supposed to do. Recommended usage levels would also be useful. In some cases, especially if the usage levels are low, you may want to make multiple weighings of an amount of the products in order to be able to convert small weights of the products to volume measurements, as you did recently with some of your dough enhancer blends. That conversion data will allow you to use one of the fields in the expanded dough calculating tool.

Peter

Peter or anyone else that is interested: These are the descriptions of the products, ingredients, and usage.

Dough Freeze 2

Description:  is a concentrated dough conditioner and improver that extends freezer life and promotes the full recovery of frozen doughs.

Features:

1.  Dough Freeze 2 is designed to be used for extended, long term freezing with full recovery in size and flavor.
2.  Easy to use concentrate.  Use only 2 lbs. Per 200 lbs. of flour.

Ingredients: Wheat flour, Dextrose, Diacetyl Tartaric Acid Ester of Mono-and Diglycerides (DATEM), Contains 2% or less of: Soy Oil, Ascorbic Acid, Enzyme

Data:  

Description: Dough Freeze 2 is a 2% conditioner formulated for frozen dough shelf life.

Usage: Recommended to use 2 lbs. for 100 lbs. of flour

Storage: Should be stored under ambient conditions in a clean, cool, dry place.  This product will give full performance for 9 months.

Free Flowing white powder, certified Kosher

Stretch Out

Description:

Stretch -Out is a no-time base for pizza dough , tortillas, Pita bread and other doughs requiring extensibility.

Features:

1.  Produces bread that stretches easily without “snap back”.
2.  Recommended 4 lbs. to 100 lbs. flour

Ingredients:
Salt, Vegetable Shortening (Partially Hydrogenated Soybean, Cottonseed, and/or Canola Oils), Dextrose, Corn Starch, Mono-and Diglycerides, Soy Flour, Contains 2% or less of each of the following: L-Cysteine, Ascorbic Acid, Enzyme

Pizza Dough

Ingredients

Patent flour                            100 lbs.
Stretch-Out                                 4 lbs.
Water (Variable)                       52 %
Yeast, Compressed (Variable)    2.50 lbs.
Total weight                            158.50 lbs.

Procedure: mix in mixer (low) 1 minutes
Continue mixing for 10 minutes
Dough temp.    78 degrees
Floor time 10 minutes

EL-7

Description:
EL-7 is a no-time dough ingredient specially formulated for doughs requiring extreme extensibility without “shrink back”, such as pizza, tortilla and pita bread dough.

Features:

1.  EL-7 eliminates fermentation time using conventional equipment.
2.  EL-7 allows doughs to sheet and press-out with more consistent shape.  EL-7 reduces mixing        times.
3.  EL-7 will not affect the color or the flavor of your products.
4.  EL-7 increases the shelf life of tortillas making them more tender so they stay fresher and softer with minimal cracking.
5.  EL-7 improves the stretching ability for stringline production (French loaves) and help reduce        shrinkage during baking.

Directions: Typical usage level is 0.375-0.5% based on flour weight.

Ingredients: Wheat flour, salt, soy oil, contains 2% or less of L-Cysteine, Ascorbic Acid, Enzyme

Fridge Soft

Description: Fridge Soft is part of Caravan Ingredients line of extended shelf life products.  It is designed for anti-staling application in refrigerated, yeast leavened bakery products as well as other non-refrigerated bakery products requiring extreme resistance to staling.  It has also been found to aid shelf life when freezing baked bread and roils, while still providing that just baked softness.

Features:
1.  Reduces waste levels of prepared sandwiches kept in refrigerators and vending machines by keeping the bread as fresh as the filling.

2.  Ideal for industrial bakeries looking to tap the market for individually wrapped sandwiches and breads as this product will keep them fresh for much longer.

3.  Can be used in non-refrigerated baked breads and rolls to extend crumb softness to a “just baked” freshness level.

4.  Used at 2-%, this powdered blend ensures soft, delicious bread, rolls and other refrigerated baked goods.

Ingredients:  Calcium Sulfate, Wheat Starch, Wheat Flour, Soybean Oil, Enzymes (wheat)

Directions: Can be used in any east leavened product at 2%-4% level based on flour weight.  No change in handling procedures. *Notes: The amount of FRIDGE SOFT required for a formulation depends on the bake time and weight of dough piece being baked.

I agree that since I have done work on the Bisquick mixes, and they are almost instant doughs, using Stretch Out would be a good place to start.  Do you have any ideas about what kind of flour I should use in the experiment, what hydration, or amount of time from starting the dough to the final bake?

In one of my emails to Edna, I did tell he about making the Sukie pizza and said some of the ingredients of the Stretch Out were about the same as the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix and you had added a “goody bag” to the biscuit mix to make it possible to be made into a pizza.   I told Edna I never thought it would be possible to make a pizza out of a biscuit mix, until I did the experiment.  

I also asked Edna if Fridge Soft could be used to keep crusts fresh when in my heated humidified holding cabinet at market and she replied she wasn’t sure how the Fridge Soft will react under those conditions, but would be interested in the tests, if I did them.

EL-7 is also supposed to be a no time product for dough.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I agree that since I have done work on the Bisquick mixes, and they are almost instant doughs, using Stretch Out would be a good place to start.  Do you have any ideas about what kind of flour I should use in the experiment, what hydration, or amount of time from starting the dough to the final bake?

Norma,

You might want to send an email to Edna to get a general idea as to what kinds of doughs and flours the Stretch-Out product can be used with. However, I see that the information you posted earlier gives a pizza dough formulation, as follows:

Stretch -Out is a no-time base for pizza dough , tortillas, Pita bread and other doughs requiring extensibility.

Features:

1.  Produces bread that stretches easily without “snap back”.
2.  Recommended 4 lbs. to 100 lbs. flour

Ingredients:
Salt, Vegetable Shortening (Partially Hydrogenated Soybean, Cottonseed, and/or Canola Oils), Dextrose, Corn Starch, Mono-and Diglycerides, Soy Flour, Contains 2% or less of each of the following: L-Cysteine, Ascorbic Acid, Enzyme

Pizza Dough

Ingredients

Patent flour                            100 lbs.
Stretch-Out                                 4 lbs.
Water (Variable)                       52 %
Yeast, Compressed (Variable)    2.50 lbs.
Total weight                            158.50 lbs.

Procedure: mix in mixer (low) 1 minutes
Continue mixing for 10 minutes
Dough temp.    78 degrees
Floor time 10 minutes

Patent flour in the above formulation can cover several different flours but the hydration noted above would seem to most closely match cake flour. However, I have seen low hydrations for flours with much more protein, including high-gluten flour, an example of which is the Big Dave Ostrander dough formulation given at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg5976.html#msg5976. But working with such a low hydration dough can be a real bear, especially with a home mixer like a KitchenAid stand mixer. Of course, you could increase the hydration and use a stronger flour, and otherwise follow the formulation given above but substitute IDY for compressed yeast. Presumably, the Stretch-Out product, which includes partially hydrogenated oil, would replace oil that you might normally use with your regular dough. The dextrose in the Stretch-Out product would be a substitute for sugar in the dough and, being a simple sugar, it would be immediately available to feed the yeast, much as occurs with the Bisquick and other mixes you played around with. The compressed yeast in the above formulation is 2.5%, but that would convert to 0.833% for IDY. That value is quite common for an emergency type dough. The L-cysteine would be used to soften the dough so that it is quite extensible. The mono- and diglycerides are fats (oils) and most likely are used for their common function as emulsifiers.

One of the things I would be interested in knowing, and maybe Edna has the answer, is whether any additional salt is needed above and beyond the salt in the Stretch-Out product. As you can see from the Stretch-Out ingredients list above, salt is the predominant ingredient in the product. If no additional salt is needed, a basic Lehmann dough modified to use the Stretch-Out product at the recommended 4% rate might look like this for a 16" pizza (using an unused field in the expanded dough calculating tool for the Stretch-Out product):

Flour (100%): Water (63%): IDY (0.833%): Stretch-Out (4%): Total (167.833%):

356.61 g  |  12.58 oz | 0.79 lbs 224.66 g  |  7.92 oz | 0.5 lbs 2.97 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp 14.26 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs 598.51 g | 21.11 oz | 1.32 lbs | TF = 0.105

Note: No bowl residue compensation

You will note from the above that I did not convert the weight of the Stretch-Out product to a volume measurement. The information you provided does not include that information, presumably because it is not nutrition information that is required to be recited. You would have to weigh a certain amount of the Stretch-Out product several times, note the average, and divide by a number of teaspoons that corresponds to the amount of the product you weighed. For example, you could weigh 1/4 cup (level) of the Stretch-Out product several times on your digital scale, average the weighings, and divide by 12. That will be the teaspoon weight.

For your information, the 50 pounds of the Stretch-Out product that you received will allow you to make 1600 Lehmann 16" pizzas based on the above modified Lehmann formulation. That assumes you don't spill any of the Stretch-Out product. I know you will be careful so as not to do that. . Waste not, want not.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

You might want to send an email to Edna to get a general idea as to what kinds of doughs and flours the Stretch-Out product can be used with. However, I see that the information you posted earlier gives a pizza dough formulation, as follows:

Stretch -Out is a no-time base for pizza dough , tortillas, Pita bread and other doughs requiring extensibility.

Features:

1.  Produces bread that stretches easily without “snap back”.
2.  Recommended 4 lbs. to 100 lbs. flour

Ingredients:
Salt, Vegetable Shortening (Partially Hydrogenated Soybean, Cottonseed, and/or Canola Oils), Dextrose, Corn Starch, Mono-and Diglycerides, Soy Flour, Contains 2% or less of each of the following: L-Cysteine, Ascorbic Acid, Enzyme

Pizza Dough

Ingredients

Patent flour                            100 lbs.
Stretch-Out                                 4 lbs.
Water (Variable)                       52 %
Yeast, Compressed (Variable)    2.50 lbs.
Total weight                            158.50 lbs.

Procedure: mix in mixer (low) 1 minutes
Continue mixing for 10 minutes
Dough temp.    78 degrees
Floor time 10 minutes

Patent flour in the above formulation can cover several different flours but the hydration noted above would seem to most closely match cake flour. However, I have seen low hydrations for flours with much more protein, including high-gluten flour, an example of which is the Big Dave Ostrander dough formulation given at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg5976.html#msg5976. But working with such a low hydration dough can be a real bear, especially with a home mixer like a KitchenAid stand mixer. Of course, you could increase the hydration and use a stronger flour, and otherwise follow the formulation given above but substitute IDY for compressed yeast. Presumably, the Stretch-Out product, which includes partially hydrogenated oil, would replace oil that you might normally use with your regular dough. The dextrose in the Stretch-Out product would be a substitute for sugar in the dough and, being a simple sugar, it would be immediately available to feed the yeast, much as occurs with the Bisquick and other mixes you played around with. The compressed yeast in the above formulation is 2.5%, but that would convert to 0.833% for IDY. That value is quite common for an emergency type dough. The L-cysteine would be used to soften the dough so that it is quite extensible. The mono- and diglycerides are fats (oils) and most likely are used for their common function as emulsifiers.

One of the things I would be interested in knowing, and maybe Edna has the answer, is whether any additional salt is needed above and beyond the salt in the Stretch-Out product. As you can see from the Stretch-Out ingredients list above, salt is the predominant ingredient in the product. If no additional salt is needed, a basic Lehmann dough modified to use the Stretch-Out product at the recommended 4% rate might look like this for a 16" pizza (using an unused field in the expanded dough calculating tool for the Stretch-Out product):

Flour (100%): Water (63%): IDY (0.833%): Stretch-Out (4%): Total (167.833%):

356.61 g  |  12.58 oz | 0.79 lbs 224.66 g  |  7.92 oz | 0.5 lbs 2.97 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp 14.26 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs 598.51 g | 21.11 oz | 1.32 lbs | TF = 0.105

Note: No bowl residue compensation

You will note from the above that I did not convert the weight of the Stretch-Out product to a volume measurement. The information you provided does not include that information, presumably because it is not nutrition information that is required to be recited. You would have to weigh a certain amount of the Stretch-Out product several times, note the average, and divide by a number of teaspoons that corresponds to the amount of the product you weighed. For example, you could weigh 1/4 cup (level) of the Stretch-Out product several times on your digital scale, average the weighings, and divide by 12. That will be the teaspoon weight.

For your information, the 50 pounds of the Stretch-Out product that you received will allow you to make 1600 Lehmann 16" pizzas based on the above modified Lehmann formulation. That assumes you don't spill any of the Stretch-Out product. I know you will be careful so as not to do that. . Waste not, want not.

Peter

Peter,

I will send Edna an email to ask her what kinds of flours and doughs the Stretch-Out product can be used on.  I will also ask her about salt.  I did see that salt was the first ingredient so that also made me wonder if any additional salt is needed. 

Thanks for explaining what all the ingredients in the Stretch-Out product would do to dough and also showing me what a basic Lehmann dough modified with the Stretch-Out product would look like.  I wonder how long a dough using Stretch-Out will take to be ready to be baked.

I will follow your instructions to weigh out some of the Stretch-Out product to be able to convert to Volume measurements.

Since I have been trying the Lehmann dough with my other homemade dough enhancers, I think it would be good idea to stay on a Lehmann dough with the Stretch-Out.  I don’t want a new formula to try and figure out how it behaves, such as Big Dave Ostrander dough formulation.  I already know how a Lehmann dough is suppose to be.  Remember keep my variables to a minimum.

Lol, thanks for giving me the information on how many modified Lehmann dough  pizzas could be made from the amount of the Stretch-Out product Edna sent me.  I don’t believe in waste, but that many pizzas would surely make me too fat. 

BTW, I received another package from Edna today, and this time it seemed really light.  When I opened the box, the Fridge Soft is in a plastic container (10 lb).  I thought whew, at least this isn’t as much as the other 50 lb. products.  I then opened the packing list that was enclosed, after I returned from market and getting my Goya manteca, and it says 50 lb. carton of Fridge Fresh.  After reading it further, it says I am supposed to receive 10 packages, for a total of 60 lb.  I don’t know if I am going to receive that many, but with all my flours, baking ingredients, pizza equipment, pizza stones, pans and all the related pizza stuff I have at home, plus these products to tested, I might need to move out and let my place just for pizza stuff.  I appreciate Edna is letting me test these products, but soon they will overtake me! 

Pictures of container of Fridge Soft.  Sorry the picture is blurry, but I thought I had it taken okay, but didn’t.  I think this pizza stuff is overtaking me.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

This is all quite hilarious. I can't imagine that Caravan can't use small samples for someone like you and your volume at market.

I agree with you that it makes sense to stick with a Lehmann dough if that is a viable option. Based on the dough formulation that came wth the Stretch-Out product, I think it should be a good option but it might make sense to wait to get an answer from Edna on the salt before proceeding further (unless you want to run a simple test anyway). I mentioned the Big Dave recipe only because I recalled that it had a very low hydration for a dough using high-gluten flour.

If you are able to use a Lehmann dough, I would think that the dough should be ready to use in a few hours. I noticed in this regard that the instructions for the Stretch-Out dough are silent as to water temperature. I take that as being intentional since if one were to use water at a temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F, the dough at that temperature would be quite extensible in its own right and wouldn't need the L-cysteine or anything else to achieve that result. It may be that the Stretch-Out product makes using warm or hot water unnecessary. You might ask Edna about that too. I'd also like to know what the corn starch is for.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

This is all quite hilarious. I can't imagine that Caravan can't use small samples for someone like you and your volume at market.

I agree with you that it makes sense to stick with a Lehmann dough if that is a viable option. Based on the dough formulation that came wth the Stretch-Out product, I think it should be a good option but it might make sense to wait to get an answer from Edna on the salt before proceeding further (unless you want to run a simple test anyway). I mentioned the Big Dave recipe only because I recalled that it had a very low hydration for a dough using high-gluten flour.

If you are able to use a Lehmann dough, I would think that the dough should be ready to use in a few hours. I noticed in this regard that the instructions for the Stretch-Out dough are silent as to water temperature. I take that as being intentional since if one were to use water at a temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F, the dough at that temperature would be quite extensible in its own right and wouldn't need the L-cysteine or anything else to achieve that result. It may be that the Stretch-Out product makes using warm or hot water unnecessary. You might ask Edna about that too. I'd also like to know what the corn starch is for.

Peter

Peter,

I also think small samples would be sufficient for a small business like I have for tests.  I do really appreciate Edna was willing to send me samples, but never though I would get this large of amounts of samples to try.  I did just buy another (non-defrost) freezer from a neighbor, for my other shed, so I guess some of these products can be frozen.  Now I just have to get a moving dolly to get the freezer, so I can put it into my other shed.  I don’t think all these test products will be used in my lifetime.

I will send the questions you have about cornstarch, water temperatures, salt, time of proofing dough, and  type of protein flour to try to Edna tonight.  I don’t know if she will answer before I want to try a test dough, but will wait and see.

If you think what I posted was hilarious, the chest I had those ingredients in front of is an old flour chest.  It is about 6' x 4'. The flour chest is made of one big piece of wood across the front and back. It has two top lids and other compartments, I don’t even know what the drawer and bottom compartments are for. I also have an old dough box for mixing and proofing dough, an old scale with weights, old tin measuring containers and of course the UBM, plus other old stuff for bread making.  I think I could go into the old-fashioned way of making bread or pizza, all by hand, but then why would I need these new products to try.  I must have been thinking about either making bread or pizza in my former life, since I do have all the old stuff to make bread or pizza. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I hadn't thought earlier to do any Googling on the Caravan products that were shipped to you, but I did a bit of searching tonight and found a website, at http://www.stovercompany.com/Manufacturer.aspx?PageID=9, where you can order most of the Caravan products online. I did a search at that website on Caravan products and saw that they sell the Caravan Dough Freeze product for $82.89 (50-lb. container), the EL-7 product for $78.80 (50-lb. container) and the Stretch-Out product for $54.46 (50-lb. container). I did not see the Fridge Soft product.

So, if you run out, you now know another place where you can get replenishments .

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I hadn't thought earlier to do any Googling on the Caravan products that were shipped to you, but I did a bit of searching tonight and found a website, at http://www.stovercompany.com/Manufacturer.aspx?PageID=9, where you can order most of the Caravan products online. I did a search at that website on Caravan products and saw that they sell the Caravan Dough Freeze product for $82.89 (50-lb. container), the EL-7 product for $78.80 (50-lb. container) and the Stretch-Out product for $54.46 (50-lb. container). I did not see the Fridge Soft product.

So, if you run out, you now know another place where you can get replenishments .

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for doing a search about the Caravan products that were shipped to me for testing.  I had no idea how much those products would have been if I had purchased them, but it is good to know how much the products are.  As I posted before, unless one of these products do something really special to one of the doughs I will be testing, I don’t think I will live long enough to use them all.  I do feel fortunate though, to be able to do tests on products that I never thought I would have access to, thanks to Edna.

Inside the packing list enclosed that I had looked at before, at the top of the page it said the Fridge Soft came from Caravan Ingredient, Inc. Grandview DC LAB, in Grandview, MO.  I looked up on the web about them and it seems that Caravan does have other locations, one being in Grandview, MO.  http://www.insideview.com/directory/caravan-ingredients-inc  I don’t know if Fridge Soft is a new product they now carry or not.  I also see they carry sours for dough.  I hope I am not curious enough to ask about them.  I always wondered if there is anything that can make pizza have a sourdough taste without using a starter.  My being curious, usually gets me into trouble, because then it causes me to think more about that and that leads to more experiments.  I hope I can put that wondering about what the sours are to the back of my mind or erase them.  I already have enough experiments going on at once.  I think Caravan does have a sour base called Pristine Artisan Italian Base. ( Pristine Artisan Italian Base is artisan and flat bread base that is great for the production of classic European Ciabatta bread and rolls. It has a very good sour taste.)  It is listed under these products. http://www.innovadex.com/Food/Suppliers/Caravan-Ingredients/Applications/18259/18525/Bread--bread-products--tortilla and here http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:UPhvfmSaPIIJ:www.caravaningredients.com/_sana_/handlers/downloadfile.ashx?fileID%3D45bc6cc2-3a70-44d8-a5f1-da077b7834c2+caravan+ingredients+sours+for+bread&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESitvPszZZ2bc4mPY-U_ZeAQ9ZH-ZV7-YLGOZ92zBRq6JwzsIeHe6vDfpfWBcBsV_w7d9T6mfeZxvAlu_18QRkFc3906Oil-dqf8HQj57jhp1aOm6eprQN5Qvqt6vJK9vBCFZ343&sig=AHIEtbRYFcXqGcx-4O9N895h0PzBARnLcw&pli=1 Caravan does carry many products, some that really do look interesting.

I did email Edna about your questions and received a reply back.  This is Edna’s reply to the questions I had asked her.

Hello Norma,
The desired temp. coming out of the bowl is 78 degrees.  So a cold water would be best and if it’s out in the work area you may need to add ice to the water.  No salt is needed it is already in the base.  This formula calls for a Patent flour lower levels of Protein than a High Gluten but you are welcome to use whatever flour best fits your project.  I am not sure why cornstarch was added to this base.  Happy Testing

Edna is a very nice, friendly person.  Even though she is really busy, she always replies to me.  If you have any other questions about these products let me know.  I did reply to Edna and told her I probably would be doing the first test on Tuesday with Stretch-Out, and would let her know how it went.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Using the pricing data for the Stretch-Out product in relation to the Lehmann dough formulation I posted yesterday places the cost per pizza for that product at 3.4 cents. Some of the other products that Caravan sent to you have usage recommendations that are considerably lower than for the Stretch-Out product so the cost per pizza would be a lot less.

When I did my search on the Caravan products, I too came across the innovadex.com website. It looked to be a good source of product information but when I tried to see the data sheets and product information on the Caravan products, I saw that I would have to register to see them. Since I don't do that for a one-time view, I decided not to register. Anyway, I believe that you already have a lot of the product information that accompanied your Caravan packages.

I'm glad that you heard back from Edna. If I had been a bit more attentive, I would have noticed the 78 degrees F finished dough temperature. You would never get that low using warm or hot water. It is also good to know that the flour can take different forms. It would seem logical that the Stretch-Out product not be limited to only one type of flour and protein content. It also occurred to me that if you decided to make a Bisquick type mix using a low protein flour and the Stretch-Out product, you would still need a "goody bag" to make pizza out of it to get all of the ingredients at the right amounts. And you would have to use a leavening agent. I am not sure that it would be worth all the effort to come up with another Bicquick type mix. I will leave to you to decide on whether to use the modified Lehmann dough formulation I posted. I used it mainly as a guide to see how much of the Stretch-Out product would be needed based on the 4% usage rate. I did leave the salt out of that formulation based on the assumption that none would be needed, which I now see from Edna's reply was the correct thing to do. You should be able to tell from an experiment whether more salt is needed based on your experience.

Since we are on the topic of dough conditioners, you might want to keep in mind that a common dough conditioner used to help reduce "buckiness" in a pizza dough is PZ-44. As you will note from the forum's Pizza Glossary definition of PZ-44 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#P, it, too, contains L-cysteine. That leads me to wonder whether the Stretch-Out product or even PZ-44 might be something for you to play around with to see if you can get your preferment Lehmann dough to be softer when you use a dough enhancer with it, which you earlier indicated leads to a stiffer dough than you would like and does not lend itself well to a one-day cold ferment. Tom Lehmann often recommends PZ-44 to pizza operators who have extensibilty problems and are unable to solve the problem through normal means. It is sort of a last resort solution. The problem seems to most often occur with high-gluten doughs.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Thanks for figuring out from the pricing data, how much the Stretch-Out product would cost per pizza. 

I might try to register at the innovadex.com website sometime, to see what other product informations are or if I would be able find out more about the products I do have to test.  I didn’t see where to register, but I will find it.

I think for right now, I will use the Lehmann dough formula you did post.  To try and come up with another “goody bag” for the Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix, would be a lot of work for you again.   

It is interesting you thought about using Stretch-Out or PZ-44 for my preferment Lehmann dough when using one of my dough enhancers.  Those regular Lehmann dough and the preferment Lehmann dough with the blends did become stiff after adding the blends.  That could be an experiment for the future.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I might try to register at the innovadex.com website sometime, to see what other product informations are or if I would be able find out more about the products I do have to test.  I didn’t see where to register, but I will find it.

Norma,

A registration window popped up when I clicked on a link for a data sheet.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

It is interesting you thought about using Stretch-Out or PZ-44 for my preferment Lehmann dough when using one of my dough enhancers.  Those regular Lehmann dough and the preferment Lehmann dough with the blends did become stiff after adding the blends.  That could be an experiment for the future.

Norma,

Sometime you might ask Edna how much salt and also how much partially hydrogenated oil(s), by percent, are in the Stretch-Out product. Since the preferment Lehmann dough has salt and oil in it, that might enable us to modify the preferment Lehmann dough to compensate for the salt and fat in the Stretch-Out product and maybe also let us determine how much of the Stretch-Out product to use along with your dough enhancer blend (hopefully it would be only a small amount). It's possible that Edna may not be able to give you that information for proprietary reasons. But it can't hurt to ask, especially if it looks to be a viable option for your preferment Lehmann dough as used at market.

Using the Stretch-Out product would also give you some sugar (dextrose), soy flour and a few other things but that would be unavoidable if you use that product. The PZ-44 product does not contain salt or fat or sugar in any form, only some whey, which is perhaps a good thing for a pizza dough, or at least not a harmful ingredient.  But, I agree that this is something for you to try down the road. Hopefully, whatever experiments you conduct with the Stretch-Out product in this thread will inform us as to whether it would be a viable candidate to use with your preferment Lehmann dough. Of course, there is also the element of cost to add things to your preferment Lehmann dough, especially if you can't price your pizzas to absorb not only the cost of enhancers and other conditioners but also the escalating costs of your basic ingredients like flour, cheeses, pizza sauces, etc. I have been reading a lot of earnings reports of food producers lately, and also of pizza and restauratnt chains, and they have not made for pretty reading. They are all getting hammered by increases in commodity prices. Some are putting up their businesses for sale as a result, or exploring other altternatives, and some have entered bankruptcy.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

The next time I email Edna, I will asked her if she knows how much salt and partially hydrogenated oil(s), by percent, are in the Stretch -Out product.  I am now sure if she will know that those question though, because she didn’t know why cornstarch was added.  I could understand that information could make it easier to modify the preferment Lehmann dough to compensate for the salt and fat in the Stretch-Out product, so maybe my homemade dough enhancers can be tried in the preferment Lehmann dough. 

I don’t know if I will use any of the products Edna sent in my preferment Lehmann dough.  As you posted and have been reading, the prices for flour, cheese (especially cheese), sauce and other products for pizza are really going up.  I try to use good ingredients for my pizzas.  Since I am only a small pizza business, I can’t get the better prices that really large chains can get.  My rent at my small pizza stand is going up in June, prices for electric have gone up 30% or higher since January and now I have to make a decision if I want to use bromated flour instead of KASL.  I can get the ADM bromated flour from The Restaurant store for about 20.99 and the KASL is over 26.50 the last time I purchase it. Flour keeps going up in price. I don’t want to change to bromated flour, but might be influenced by price. With the rising cheese prices and all the other price increases, I don’t know what will happen to my small business in the next year.  All that coupled with higher gasoline prices for people to drive has to have an effect on what customers do or don’t buy.  I have to sell a lot of slices of pizza to stay afloat.  Since my main business is slices, my business isn’t like other independents, that sell more whole pies.  I can’t really up my prices, because people come to market to find bargains. I also sell sodas, water, and other pizza related items, but the slices make up the majority of my sales. Time will tell what will happen. I would really hate not to have my pizza stand, but I won’t take a loss either. I also hear many horror stories from customers about not finding jobs and having enough money to pay bills, that coupled with heath care prices rising.  I know of many customers and stand holders that have had to cut out their health care insurances, because they have risen too high to pay them.

I also know other independent pizza operators in my area aren’t doing as well as they were 2 years ago.

Norma