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Author Topic: Have you had this cheese melt?  (Read 9697 times)

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Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #280 on: April 20, 2017, 01:46:02 PM »
lol, I didn't know that! I had my first grandma slice a month or two ago, loved it, I'll have to try one in our home oven.

I did a quick internet search, used looks to be about $2400. Given the availability of ny pizza where I live, I think I'm going to spend my $ on a bs or pizzaparty and try for neo.

that is awesome! lmk when you work, I'd love to swing by for a slice when I'm in the city. Maybe some other forum members will join me.

I use a 17" allied metal steel pan.  22 guage cold rolled steel.  They work great after seasoning and breaking in a few test bakes.  Just like the old black steel sicilian pans.  Good grandma pies in a home oven.
 
Cucina Bene on Exchange Pl.  I'm only there few hours a week, not an actual employee.  PM me next week for time.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 01:55:14 PM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #281 on: April 20, 2017, 06:58:18 PM »
You're right in previous reply, and I apologize for the comments made about Scott. 

My observation is many of you are now beyond the hobby level, yet want to achieve the perfect NY slice pizza with makeshift equipment, ie steels, BS's, electric home ovens, etc, There is no doubt good pizza can be made this way and people's pies here look good, but if we are talking the finest of details and the final stretch, yes it is the gas deck oven with low clearance that gets you the perfect cheese melt, browning, oil roll off and most importantly,  crust texture.  There are alternatives to a large size deck oven, there are smaller ones too, ie a small Bakers Pride GP-51, which can run off propane with a mod and can sit on a table outside or put on legs and wheels and roll them out of your garage easily.  A good compromise for the home pizzamaker who wants to step up to another level.  All I'm saying is that your search would have ended months ago if using a small deck oven, pizzamaking isn't as difficult as it's been made out to be once understand the basic components of it.  And though the style can be attempted with a BS, the BS oven is fundamentally different in how it bakes, with direct flames to wall, etc similar to NP ovens and front exposed.  Different ovens bake different, we could compromise NP style to an electric oven with mods, but the little details that you are looking for will never be achieved, imho.

This reminds me of the BBQ discussion boards.  At some point, the guys move on from their kettle grills, and move on to better equipment, like larger offset smokers.  Some go beyond, real hard core even tho it's not for commercial purpose.

I agree that a deck oven would be easier and certainly wouldn't reduce the quality of my pies, but I'm not convinced that I can't compete with the big boys using what I have available. I had another midtown deck oven slice today and I'm comfortable saying mine beats it handily.

Can you elaborate on crust texture being the most important piece requiring a deck oven? I assume you mean the undercrust as you generally don't eat the rim. But undercrusts vary so much by preference. And alot of the pizzerias you like in Queens use screens. I'm not at the point where undercrust would compel me to buy an oven.

Pizza making seems simple once you know it. But no way my search would have ended months ago if I had a deck oven. The oven wasn't  (and I think isnt) my main issue holding me back. When I started posting in this thread I was using 5 oz of cheese on a 14'' pie with watery whole tomatoes and choosing to bake fast. I changed alot of this (partially from your suggestions) but a deck oven would not have solved it. I'm still working on dough formula, ingredients, ratios etc. My belief is that once I solve those to match my preferences, the difference in my oven vs deck will be negligible. And these minute differences will have a smaller impact than the positives I bring. Time will tell...but I don't think it will take me much more time. What would make me reconsider is if I taste a deck slice that I think beats my pie and that there's now way I could match it in my oven. It hasn't happened yet though.

Thanks for the post. I'm enjoying this process.

« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 07:16:17 PM by hammettjr »
Matt

Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #282 on: April 20, 2017, 07:37:40 PM »
I agree it would be easier with a deck oven, but I'm not convinced that I can't compete with the big boys using what I have available. I had another midtown deck oven slice today and I'm comfortable saying mine beats it handily.

Can you elaborate on crust texture being the most important piece requiring a deck oven? I assume you mean the undercrust as you generally don't eat the rim. But undercrusts vary so much by preference. And alot of the pizzerias you like in Queens use screens. I'm not at the point where undercrust would compel me to buy an oven.

Pizza making seems simple once you know it. But no way my search would have ended months ago if I had a deck oven. The oven wasn't  (and I think isnt) my main issue holding me back. When I started posting in this thread I was using 5 oz of cheese on a 14'' pie with watery whole tomatoes and choosing to bake fast. I changed alot of this (partially from your suggestions) but a deck oven would not have solved it. I'm still working on dough formula, ingredients, ratios etc. My belief is that once I solve those to match my preferences, the difference in my oven vs deck will be negligible. And these minute differences will have a smaller impact than the positives I bring. Time will tell...but I don't think it will take me much more time. What would make me reconsider is if I taste a deck slice that I think beats my pie and that there's now way I could match it in my oven. It hasn't happened yet though.

Thanks for the post. I'm enjoying this process.

Some Queens joints that use screens do that to get better cheese melt and browning before the undercrust overbakes, as they desire golden brown undercrusts, nor charred.  They are undocked from mesh and finished on the stone for final minutes.  This also gets a unique bottom veneer.  Reading some threads here, those who own BS and also bake in deck ovens like Norma at her market pizzeria have shown that results are different even when using the same dough.  But if you can get your ideal NY pizza on a BS more power to you.  A deck oven's thermal attributes, cavity dimensions, and stone makes a difference in the crust, and not just the undercrust, but the inner crumb.  This may also be the reason why many home pizzamakers use a lower TF where the avg NY TF is 0.085-0.090 same day dough.




Offline hammettjr

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #283 on: April 20, 2017, 09:22:39 PM »
...Reading some threads here, those who own BS and also bake in deck ovens like Norma at her market pizzeria have shown that results are different even when using the same dough.
...
 This may also be the reason why many home pizzamakers use a lower TF where the avg NY TF is 0.085-0.090 same day dough.

Certainly the same dough will perform differently in 2 different ovens. Doesn't mean the formula or bake protocol couldn't be changed in the BS to better replicate the deck. There are members here that achieved quite a bit using firebricks in a BS.

Today I had a coal oven slice and deck oven slice back to back. While there was alot I wasn't thrilled with, the thickness of the deck slice was the most unappealing part. My personal preference.

« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 09:40:47 PM by hammettjr »
Matt

Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #284 on: April 20, 2017, 09:57:51 PM »
Certainly the same dough will perform differently in 2 different ovens. Doesn't mean the formula or bake protocol couldn't be changed in the BS to better replicate the deck. There are members here that achieved quite a bit using firebricks in a BS.

Today I had a coal oven slice and deck oven slice back to back. While there was alot I wasn't thrilled with, the thickness of the deck slice was the most unappealing part. My personal preference.

Not everyone likes NY slice pizza.


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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #285 on: April 21, 2017, 07:49:54 AM »
Not everyone likes NY slice pizza.

And not all NY slices have the same thickness and texture. My point was that I choose my dough weight based on my taste and work flow preferences, not because of limitations of my oven.
Matt

Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #286 on: April 21, 2017, 09:34:53 AM »
And not all NY slices have the same thickness and texture. My point was that I choose my dough weight based on my taste and work flow preferences, not because of limitations of my oven.

Generally speaking, the good old NY slice is chewy which is a product of a dense dough mass, compressed in opening, RT ferment, low yeast % which is why the dough weight/TF is where it is.  When using a permutation of longer cold ferment, lower protein, higher hydration, and making for higher oven spring, people tend to compensate by going towards a lower doughweight/TF because of the larger crumb/bubbles, but then they often lose chew.  One can make a thinner pizza at 0.09TF vs a long cold fermented at 0.07TF, by using a workflow to control how large the inner bubbles will be.  Modifying the workflow goes from dense and chewier, to something light and breadier.  However, my feeling is if you get a slice in NYC that reminisces of bread, there's something wrong. 

Sure, there is a spectrum in thickness, and there are anomolies within any food, but there is an area where the term "classic" resides.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 09:47:18 AM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline Josh123

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #287 on: April 21, 2017, 09:59:36 AM »
I agree that a deck oven would be easier and certainly wouldn't reduce the quality of my pies, but I'm not convinced that I can't compete with the big boys using what I have available. I had another midtown deck oven slice today and I'm comfortable saying mine beats it handily.

Can you elaborate on crust texture being the most important piece requiring a deck oven? I assume you mean the undercrust as you generally don't eat the rim. But undercrusts vary so much by preference. And alot of the pizzerias you like in Queens use screens. I'm not at the point where undercrust would compel me to buy an oven.

Pizza making seems simple once you know it. But no way my search would have ended months ago if I had a deck oven. The oven wasn't  (and I think isnt) my main issue holding me back. When I started posting in this thread I was using 5 oz of cheese on a 14'' pie with watery whole tomatoes and choosing to bake fast. I changed alot of this (partially from your suggestions) but a deck oven would not have solved it. I'm still working on dough formula, ingredients, ratios etc. My belief is that once I solve those to match my preferences, the difference in my oven vs deck will be negligible. And these minute differences will have a smaller impact than the positives I bring. Time will tell...but I don't think it will take me much more time. What would make me reconsider is if I taste a deck slice that I think beats my pie and that there's now way I could match it in my oven. It hasn't happened yet though.

Thanks for the post. I'm enjoying this process.

there are a million deck oven joints in NY, not all of them good. So yours beats some you have had? That's awesome. Now imagine how much BETTER yours would be in a deck. Dude, I was a home NY pizza maker, and now I own a shop and use Blodgett 1000's and just bought 2 Bakers Pride y802 decks. It really is  night and day, and until you've baked YOUR pizza on a deck, how can you so stubbornly cling to your opinions?

Offline Hermit

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #288 on: April 21, 2017, 10:14:59 AM »
there are a million deck oven joints in NY, not all of them good. So yours beats some you have had? That's awesome. Now imagine how much BETTER yours would be in a deck. Dude, I was a home NY pizza maker, and now I own a shop and use Blodgett 1000's and just bought 2 Bakers Pride y802 decks. It really is  night and day, and until you've baked YOUR pizza on a deck, how can you so stubbornly cling to your opinions?

I'd be clinging to them as well considering there's no room in my house for a large deck oven, and I suspect 99.99% of us fall into that category.  Unless we're discussing this in shop talk section, I'd assume none of us have much of a choice except to try our best to recreate what's done in a pizzaria using the tools we have.  I get it, we can't achieve the same thing at home, I'm pretty sure hammett77 also get's it.  His point still stands though, and considering it's a subjective opinion, if his pies are tasting better in his home oven versus a slice shop in NY, I can't really dispute that.  It's like saying you can only make "real asian food" in a wok, and anything cooked outside of a wok is not "real asian food".

Will my pizza taste better baked in a deck oven?  I have no idea.  I don't think I'll ever have the opportunity so dwelling on it seems fruitless.  Furthermore, if the case were to be made that NY style can only be made in a commercial kitchen with commercial equipment, this particular forum would be a complete waste of space and time as it's geared towards home cooks using home grade kitchen equipment.

Perhaps the mentality that a proper NY pizza only being baked in a deck oven would receive a little more credence in the shop talk section where you have pizzaria owners aiming for NY style using non-standard commercial equipment like a WFO.

Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #289 on: April 21, 2017, 10:41:49 AM »
I'd be clinging to them as well considering there's no room in my house for a large deck oven, and I suspect 99.99% of us fall into that category.  Unless we're discussing this in shop talk section, I'd assume none of us have much of a choice except to try our best to recreate what's done in a pizzaria using the tools we have.  I get it, we can't achieve the same thing at home, I'm pretty sure hammett77 also get's it.  His point still stands though, and considering it's a subjective opinion, if his pies are tasting better in his home oven versus a slice shop in NY, I can't really dispute that.  It's like saying you can only make "real asian food" in a wok, and anything cooked outside of a wok is not "real asian food".

Will my pizza taste better baked in a deck oven?  I have no idea.  I don't think I'll ever have the opportunity so dwelling on it seems fruitless.  Furthermore, if the case were to be made that NY style can only be made in a commercial kitchen with commercial equipment, this particular forum would be a complete waste of space and time as it's geared towards home cooks using home grade kitchen equipment.

Perhaps the mentality that a proper NY pizza only being baked in a deck oven would receive a little more credence in the shop talk section where you have pizzaria owners aiming for NY style using non-standard commercial equipment like a WFO.

A GP-51 will easily fit in the garage and can take it out and bake.  There are also other countertop models which would work.  It certainly isn't infeasible. 

The wok is primarily found in Chinese cuisine, not all Asian cuisines.  And the difference in a stir fry at home vs a high BTU wok at the local takeout joint is certainly night and day.  And this too can be done at home, just need to make the decision to buy the equipment.  Home cooks use commercial grade ranges too, ie Viking.  It really comes down to how hard core one wants to get and we are only having this discussion because quite a few members here are clearly beyond home hobby pizzamaker, it's like a science lab here.  Just saying.. 

https://www.walmart.com/ip/GAS-ONE-Portable-Propane-200-000-BTU-High-Pressure-Single-Burner-Outdoor-Camp-Stove-Adjustable-Legs-CSA-Listed-0-20PSI-High-Pressure-Regulator-Hose/173575333?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=2145&adid=22222222227056475024&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=159920680953&wl4=pla-267758636094&wl5=9003574&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=113500462&wl11=online&wl12=173575333&wl13=&veh=sem
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 10:52:54 AM by HarryHaller73 »

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Offline Hermit

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #290 on: April 21, 2017, 10:57:07 AM »
A GP-51 will easily fit in the garage and can take it out and bake.  There are also other countertop models which would work.  It certainly isn't infeasible. 

The wok is primarily found in Chinese cuisine, not all Asian cuisines.  And the difference in a stir fry at home vs a high BTU wok at the local takeout joint is certainly night and day.  And this too can be done at home, just need to make the decision to buy the equipment.  Home cooks use commercial grade ranges too, ie Viking.  It really comes down to how hard core one wants to get and we are only having this discussion because quite a few members here are clearly beyond home hobby pizzamaker, it's like a science lab here.  Just saying.. 

https://www.walmart.com/ip/GAS-ONE-Portable-Propane-200-000-BTU-High-Pressure-Single-Burner-Outdoor-Camp-Stove-Adjustable-Legs-CSA-Listed-0-20PSI-High-Pressure-Regulator-Hose/173575333?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=2145&adid=22222222227056475024&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=159920680953&wl4=pla-267758636094&wl5=9003574&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=113500462&wl11=online&wl12=173575333&wl13=&veh=sem

Harry, are you saying that a GP-51 will give me the same bake as a bakers pride y802?

Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #291 on: April 21, 2017, 11:01:32 AM »
Harry, are you saying that a GP-51 will give me the same bake as a bakers pride y802?

Yes.  Norma's pies look real nice, she uses a GP-61 at her stand.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 11:03:55 AM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #292 on: April 21, 2017, 11:08:05 AM »
For anyone who's interested, here are specs:

http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/Hearthbake/Hearthbake_GP.pdf

GP-51 32 5/8" x 31 1/4".  40k BTU
GP-61 41 5/8" x 31 1/4".  45K BTU

I see them used on ebay.  Can be easily modded to propane.  Not much bigger than some people's backyard gas grills.

Offline JD

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #293 on: April 21, 2017, 11:21:27 AM »
Thanks Caymus, Ryan and QD. I'm going to try out this potato grater. It was mentioned a few times across the forum.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0000VLV6Q/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

I have an old wonder shredder. It makes grating cheese a very fast task, but the thicker shreds do not help with the melt you're looking for in my experience.
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Online invertedisdead

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #294 on: April 21, 2017, 11:37:31 AM »
Can someone explain why the bake times are so similar if the bake is so different between a home vs deck oven? The biggest advantage of a deck oven to me seems to be the low ceiling height for an even bake and increased thermal mass for a stronger boil for sauce cook through and flavor development. However, I feel like this is quite well remedied at home with a convection oven.

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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #295 on: April 21, 2017, 06:37:58 PM »
I hear you guys and appreciate your input. I haven't yet maximized my potential with my oven. I still have work to do on dough formula, work flow, ingredients, ingredient ratio etc. When I feel like I've reached my peak, if I'm not satisfied with my results and want to take it further, then I'd consider another oven.
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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #296 on: April 21, 2017, 06:40:54 PM »
I have an old wonder shredder. It makes grating cheese a very fast task, but the thicker shreds do not help with the melt you're looking for in my experience.

Thanks JD. I actully reread the post about your last pizza just before ordering the grater. I saw you said smaller shred was part of the reason for the success of that bake. It made me pause, but I decided to give this a shot anyway as if it doesn't work, I'm only out 9 bucks and my wife gets a potato grater.
Matt

Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #297 on: April 21, 2017, 11:04:25 PM »
Can someone explain why the bake times are so similar if the bake is so different between a home vs deck oven? The biggest advantage of a deck oven to me seems to be the low ceiling height for an even bake and increased thermal mass for a stronger boil for sauce cook through and flavor development. However, I feel like this is quite well remedied at home with a convection oven.

Better conduction and better radiant heat via heavy duty construction.


Offline waltertore

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #298 on: April 21, 2017, 11:51:04 PM »
I have made good pizzas in home ovens.  It is a lot more work than using deck ovens and a PITA mainly because I have the luxury to bake pizzas in deck ovens.  I respect the home bakers that work so hard doing all the other stuff it takes to get a nice pie.  My deck ovens are a breeze in comparison.  There is no rotating pies and great top/bottom browning.  No screens needed either.  Many of the younger pro pizza makers do not believe we don't rotate pies and some of them are world famous.  Our Blodgett 1000's fell out of vogue for larger capacity deck ovens but having baked on most all major brand deck ovens out there over the past 40 years, ours are hands down tops along with the comparable bakers pride era ovens for NY style pizza.  We are a small operation with a high profit margin so the 2 ovens are more than we need to make a nice living. Frank Mastro designed both and when he completed the 1000 design said he had perfected the deck oven.  Sadly he died soon afterwards.  Here is a very brief article on his life and touches on just a few things he created as we know pizza today.  Norma and I hope someday to find a filmmaker to document it all via his 90 year old daughter Madeline who we have become friends with.  Walter

http://www.pmq.com/August-2016/The-Pizza-Kings-The-strange-sad-story-of-the-industrys-greatestand-most-tragicvisionaries/
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 11:54:00 PM by waltertore »
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Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #299 on: April 22, 2017, 01:25:36 AM »
I have made good pizzas in home ovens.  It is a lot more work than using deck ovens and a PITA mainly because I have the luxury to bake pizzas in deck ovens.  I respect the home bakers that work so hard doing all the other stuff it takes to get a nice pie.  My deck ovens are a breeze in comparison.  There is no rotating pies and great top/bottom browning.  No screens needed either.  Many of the younger pro pizza makers do not believe we don't rotate pies and some of them are world famous.  Our Blodgett 1000's fell out of vogue for larger capacity deck ovens but having baked on most all major brand deck ovens out there over the past 40 years, ours are hands down tops along with the comparable bakers pride era ovens for NY style pizza.  We are a small operation with a high profit margin so the 2 ovens are more than we need to make a nice living. Frank Mastro designed both and when he completed the 1000 design said he had perfected the deck oven.  Sadly he died soon afterwards.  Here is a very brief article on his life and touches on just a few things he created as we know pizza today.  Norma and I hope someday to find a filmmaker to document it all via his 90 year old daughter Madeline who we have become friends with.  Walter

http://www.pmq.com/August-2016/The-Pizza-Kings-The-strange-sad-story-of-the-industrys-greatestand-most-tragicvisionaries/

Depends on who you talk to.  Ira Nevin supporters would say mastro stole his oven.

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