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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: high hydration cooking advice
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2011, 06:00:16 PM »
Biz,

I pretty much subscribe to what scott123 has told you thus far except that I think I may be more charitable toward Peter Reinhart ;D. Peter R came to pizza from the bread side, where he was used to working with very high hydration doughs. I think that many of his latest high hydration pizza doughs can be successfully executed in a home environment, especially by those who are used to working with high hydration doughs, but as Norma has found with one of her favorite Reinhart pizza doughs, they can be hard to translate to a commercial environment, especially hers where ambient temperatures at the market where she sells her pizzas can be all over the place, and above 90 degrees F in the summer. If she ever figures out how to successfully use the Reinhart pizza doughs at market, she will dismissively brush aside the preferment Lehmann dough formulation that I devised for her and send Tom Lehmann and me packing back to the minors :-D. (Norma being the sweet lady that she is will, of course, deny this).

I wouldn't get too agitated about your progress to date with high hydration doughs. I usually suggest that members start with lower hydrations and gradually work up to higher hydrations. Somewhere along the way you are likely to find your sweet spot.

Peter

parallei

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Re: high hydration cooking advice
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2011, 06:04:02 PM »
Now Scott123, don't you think "irresponsible" is a bit strong for recommending a 1 to 3 day cold fermentation? ;D  Folks do it all the time!

Biz Markie,

Some have had great success with Reinhart's pizza recipes.  It looks like you tried one of his recipes with both AP and a HG flour so not sure what style you're really shooting for.  Have you checked out these threads:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11917.0.html

and

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13442.0.html

They are both Reinhart recipes that many had good luck with. Cold fermented also....

Quote
Oh, and any thoughts on a truer Neapolitan formula?  Or at least, as close as one can get without a sub-2 minute cook time (starting to use the GTB - grill-to-broiler - method and can get sub 6 or 7 minutes at best I think.

Check out:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11654.0.html  (I see Craig beat me to the punch!  It is a great thread.  Thanks Chau!)

Good luck...




 
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 06:09:13 PM by parallei »

Offline norma427

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Re: high hydration cooking advice
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2011, 06:46:58 PM »
Biz,

I donít know if my threads will help you understand higher hydration doughs or not, but I usually just use the paddle attachment on my Kitchen Aid to make Reinhart doughs, then maybe one or more reballs or stretch and folds. 

This are some threads where I tried the higher hydration Reinhart doughs, with and without KASL.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13037.0.html
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14368.0.html
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13347.0.html

You can see I did have some problems with using a higher hydration Reinhart dough, until I did a little bit of experimenting.  I really do like different Reinhart doughs.

John (fazzari) also had great results using different Reinhart doughs.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: high hydration cooking advice
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2011, 06:58:06 PM »
Biz,

 I think that many of his latest high hydration pizza doughs can be successfully executed in a home environment, especially by those who are used to working with high hydration doughs, but as Norma has found with one of her favorite Reinhart pizza doughs, they can be hard to translate to a commercial environment, especially hers where ambient temperatures at the market where she sells her pizzas can be all over the place, and above 90 degrees F in the summer. If she ever figures out how to successfully use the Reinhart pizza doughs at market, she will dismissively brush aside the preferment Lehmann dough formulation that I devised for her and send Tom Lehmann and me packing back to the minors :-D.


Peter

Peter,

I do really like Reinhart doughs as you already know.  Maybe I am getting lazy to do all the experimenting it takes to make Reinhart pizzas at market.  With one or a few doughs balls a Reinhart Pizza isnít hard anymore, but I am almost too lazy, to go though all the trials of seeing if it can work as good as the preferment Lehmann dough, at least for market.  I would have to go though all the experiments of seeing if it could be frozen, is suitable for Greek Style pizzas, and other products I make.  You and Tom are old friends of mine and have helped me through my journey about learning to make many kinds of pizzas.  I never would brush you and Tom Lehmann aside and pack you both back to the minors.  I guess my laziness is getting in the way.   :-D

I think Biz can make a higher hydration Reinhart dough if he experiments a little.  :)

Norma

Offline scott123

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Re: high hydration cooking advice
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2011, 09:49:30 PM »
Novice question I guess, but what are the signs of overfermentation? 

Oh, and any thoughts on a truer Neapolitan formula?  Or at least, as close as one can get without a sub-2 minute cook time (starting to use the GTB - grill-to-broiler - method and can get sub 6 or 7 minutes at best I think.

The enzymes in overfermented dough will break down the gluten structure.  The dough is literally self digesting and turning into mush.  Volume is a popular indicator, but I find that it can be misleading.  For instance, you can use an obscenely high amount of yeast, and, within a few hours, the dough will be exploding.  As far as the gluten framework goes, though, it will still be very strong. Holes don't necessarily equate to weakness.  You're not going to get a lot of protein damaging enzyme activity in a few hours.  I go with indicators such as:

Wet
Slimy
Pebbly/small bubbles
Translucent
Sweet alcohol-y smell
Knobby baked crust with lots of sheer blowout bubbles

As far as a 'truer' Neapolitan formula goes, I'm sure you're familiar with the phrase 'almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.'  If you really work at it, 6 minutes can do a half decent NY pie, but there's just no scenario where a 6 minute pizza would ever be considered Neapolitan.   Every aspect of a 'true' Neapolitan recipe has been engineered for a sub 2 minute bake time.  Taking a Neapolitan recipe and baking it 6 minutes is like trying to win the Indy 500 with a drag racer or expecting a sprinter to do well in a marathon.

It's not the easiest thing in the world, but sub 2 minute bakes can be done in home ovens. I've been advocating 3/4" steel plate but there are other ways.  Because of the weight of steel, you have to use metal bars to support it, but it has the thermal mass and conductivity to produce sub 2 minute bakes at 550 degrees along with an electric broiler at close proximity.

Bottom line, imo, you can't really 'grow' into Neapolitan.  Either you have an oven setup that can do it, or you don't.

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Offline scott123

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Re: high hydration cooking advice
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2011, 09:57:43 PM »
Now Scott123, don't you think "irresponsible" is a bit strong for recommending a 1 to 3 day cold fermentation? ;D  Folks do it all the time!

I recommend fermenting between 1 and 3 days, but that's for different doughs. Doughs don't have 3 day viability windows.  A dough might be properly fermented one day and, maybe you might not get to it, and it's not that bad the next morning, but a dough that's properly fermented on day 1 will be way past it's prime on day 3. Great pizza is not a 'make some dough and, when you feel like it, bake it up' endeavor.  For every dough, there's going be a day (or two) when it's ready. Not three.

Offline Biz Markie

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Re: high hydration cooking advice
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2011, 12:09:27 AM »
Thanks so much, everyone, for the great advice.

Points well taken regarding Neapolitan.  At the moment my ultimate fantasy is my own WFO in the backyard, so I may wait until that day to really get into it.  I am a perfectionist, after all.

Norma - thanks a lot for your input.  I will research some of those threads and try to keep my hopes up. 

I'm gonna be traveling for the next 3 weeks and will not be able to do any baking, so it'll give me time to study-up and recharge my pizza batteries.

Thanks, y'all (as we say down in these parts)

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