A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: More flavour in dough  (Read 458505 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline CaptBob

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3071
  • Location: Idaho Falls, Id
Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1200 on: January 27, 2015, 01:18:38 PM »
Hey Jeff..... I took the temp up to about 720 ish' and then turned the flame down to let things cool to 680 then launched. I don't use a deflector. No doming but plenty of shuffling. I wish it was a "fire and forget" thing but that doesn't seem to be the case for me. Sometimes if I get it perfectly centered at launch, which almost never happens, I don't have to shuffle much. My top stone seems to be around 50 degrees hotter than the bottom dependent upon where you shoot it with the IR of course. I have had occasion to turn the flame up for the last 30 seconds or so to finish the top off however.

I've tried those rubber brushes before and it seems that I waste more oil than what I get on the rim. I get a much more even application with a bristled brush held at an angle so as not to damage the rim and to be as gentle as possible. Having said that, I don't get too concerned about an even coat all the way around. I usually get a little on the peel but haven't had any issues with the dough sticking at launch.

Norma's post at #1171 shows the video I saw of Dr. Tom brushing the rim and skin pre sauce and that's why I started doing both.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 01:21:35 PM by CaptBob »
Bob

Offline jvp123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3081
  • Location: Los Angeles, California
  • Trying to make my perfect pizza ...
Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1201 on: January 27, 2015, 01:22:01 PM »
Hey Jeff..... I took the temp up to about 720 ish' and then turned the flame down to let things cool to 680 then launched. I don't use a deflector. No doming but plenty of shuffling. I wish it was a "fire and forget" thing but that doesn't seem to be the case for me. Sometimes if I get it perfectly centered at launch, which almost never happens, I don't have to shuffle much. My top stone seems to be around 50 degrees hotter than the bottom dependent upon where you shoot it with the IR of course. I have had occasion to turn the flame up for the last 30 seconds or so to finish the top off however.

I've tried those rubber brushes before and it seems that I waste more oil than what I get on the rim. I get a much more even application with a bristled brush held at an angle so as not to damage the rim and to be as gentle as possible. Having said that, I don't get too concerned about an even coat all the way around. I usually get a little on the peel but haven't had any issues with the dough sticking at launch.

Norma's post at #1171 shows the video I saw of Dr. Tom brushing the rim and skin pre sauce and that's why I started doing both.

Ok copy that thanks.
Jeff

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 30700
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1202 on: January 27, 2015, 04:47:26 PM »
Some factors that seem to encourage blistering include: oil in the dough, oil on the dough, and a high humidity/steam environment. All of these, it seems, would work to slow the drying of the surface of the dough. The theory I'll propose for discussion is that in order for blisters to form, the surface of the dough needs to stay sufficiently "wet," and therefore expandable, long enough for the bubble to reach its maximum size without exploding. There is a network of bubbles all throughout the dough - including right under the skin. If these are able to expand without rupturing, they become blisters. I'm guessing that the bubbles under the surface in the non-oiled portion of the pie broke through the dried out skin almost immediately, leaving that rough look behind.  Along these lines, I think the similarity of the look between a crust painted with oil before baking and a dough baked in a high-humidity environment is also very interesting.

Thoughts?
Craig,

I'm inclined to agree with you on the desirability of having a moist surface, and I believe that brushing the rim of a skin with oil may contribute to the micro-blistering of the rim of the crust under certain conditions, such as those that prevailed with CaptBob's recent experiment. I am not sure about the contribution of oil in the dough to micro-blistering. Out of curiosity, after you posted, I went back to the Papa John's clone thread and looked at all of the PJ clone pizzas that were made using long fermentation windows (of the order of five days or more), and none of the photos of the pizzas showed micro-blistering. All of the PJ clone doughs had a bit over 7% oil and, since oil in the dough can retard evaporation of moisture in the dough, maybe high levels of oil discourage micro-blistering. When I looked at the photo of a real PJ pizza that I posted in the PJ clone thread, it didn't show any micro-blistering either. In fact, none of the PJ clone pizzas showed any signs of micro-blistering.

I am still looking at old posts on the subject of blistering, so I may stumble across some other insights that arose out of the work of our members who posted about the subject.

Peter

Offline nick57

  • In Memoriam
  • Posts: 4898
  • Location: Tulsa OK
  • Rest In Peace - March 2020
Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1203 on: January 27, 2015, 06:16:09 PM »
 Most of all my pies lately have had micro blisters, except for thin crusts and crackers. The pies are around 58% to 60% hydration, cooked at 550 and on a stone. They are 2 day fridge pies and a few are 3 day fridge rests. They sit on the counter for 2 hours, and on a rare occasion up to 3 hours before making a skin. I never put any oil on the rims.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 06:23:58 PM by nick57 »

Offline Essen1

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6312
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1204 on: January 27, 2015, 11:46:01 PM »
Norma,

That should explain it.

The formation of blisters can be encouraged by using one or a combination of the following techniques:

Using highly acidic preferments (dough fermented in advance);
Delaying fermentation during proofing (final dough-rise step before baking);
Misting the dough with water prior to baking;
Injecting hot steam into the oven during the initial phase of baking.

Of the four mentioned, the most common implemented technique to induce blisters is extending the proofing period. This is done by incubating the dough at cooler temperatures, often in a refrigerator or dough retarder.

When dough is chilled to as low as 3°C / 38°F for several hours, gluten degrades and the dough retains a reservoir of excess gas produced by active yeast. Because gases are more soluble in water at cooler temperatures, the carbon dioxide generated by the yeast slowly dissolves and diffuses throughout the dough. (Have you ever noticed that chilled soda is fizzier than lukewarm soda? The same effect applies.) When the dough is loaded into the hot, preheated oven, the retained gas dissipates and seeps to the dough surface, forming pockets of carbon dioxide and thus expanding the exterior.

Voila! You’ve achieved blistering.

In France, bakers traditionally refresh their sourdough starters more frequently and do not chill their dough to minimize or eliminate sourness. Consequently, blisters are seldom observed and generally regarded as defects by the French. Not surprisingly, the majority of French bakers avoid blisters—on their breads and likely their bodies.

Blisters are strong indications that the dough was fermented for hours, perhaps days, and often characterized by a piquant tang. In San Francisco, USA, where tangy breads are not considered unusual, this attribute may be sought after.

http://www.sourdoughlibrary.org/bread-crust-blisters/


This was also confirmed by a master bread maker and a master pizzaiolo yesterday. I hope that helps & answers your question. :)

« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 12:00:33 AM by Essen1 »
Mike

“All styles of pizza are valid. I make the best I’m capable of; you should make the best you’re capable of. I don’t want to make somebody else’s pizza.” ~ Chris Bianco

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 28066
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1205 on: January 28, 2015, 01:16:13 AM »
When dough is chilled to as low as 3°C / 38°F for several hours, gluten degrades and the dough retains a reservoir of excess gas produced by active yeast. Because gases are more soluble in water at cooler temperatures, the carbon dioxide generated by the yeast slowly dissolves and diffuses throughout the dough. (Have you ever noticed that chilled soda is fizzier than lukewarm soda? The same effect applies.) When the dough is loaded into the hot, preheated oven, the retained gas dissipates and seeps to the dough surface, forming pockets of carbon dioxide and thus expanding the exterior.


Ummmm... maybe not...

You shouldn't have edited out his conjecture disclosure. Yes, CO2 is more soluble at lower temperatures; the rest shows a good imagination if nothing else.

You got to love the author citing blog posts as references.  :-D
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Essen1

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6312
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1206 on: January 28, 2015, 01:54:24 AM »
Let the controversy begin...
Mike

“All styles of pizza are valid. I make the best I’m capable of; you should make the best you’re capable of. I don’t want to make somebody else’s pizza.” ~ Chris Bianco

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30775
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1207 on: January 28, 2015, 08:26:17 AM »
CaptBob and Norma,

To demonstrate how difficult it is to unravel and decipher the secrets surrounding the creation of micro-blisters, here is an example of a case where a member, jeffereynelson (Jeff), made a dough that was fermented for just under 24 hours, with half of the fermentation at room temperature and half in the refrigerator, and where the pizza made with the dough was baked at a high temperature (presumably around 650-700 degrees F) in a Black Stone oven, and where he achieved, by his own words, "very good blistering":

Reply 67 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=18456.msg269067#msg269067.

Since Jeff did not mention coating or brushing the rim of the unbaked pizza with oil, nor did he mention such use for any of the several other experiments in the same thread, I will assume that he did not coat the rims with oil. Jeff did use oil in the dough but we know from the work of other members, such as chickenparm, that it is not necessary to use oil in a dough to achieve micro-blistering. In Jeff's case, the amount of oil in the dough in any event was small, at around 1%.

From CaptBob's results, it seems safe to say that oiling the rim of his unbaked pizzas did contribute to micro-blistering so it will be interesting to see if Norma achieves similar results using a dough that has considerably less total fermentation than either Jeff's dough (a good part of his fermentation occurred at room temperature) or CaptBob's dough (with two extra nights in the fridge and 7 hours on the counter at room temperature), and where she will not have the benefit of a very high bake temperature and top heat as are available with a Black Stone oven. "Heat" and "Blistering" do go together after all, which I suspect is why the expression "blistering heat" came into being.

Jeff's experiment as discussed in Reply 67 is interesting for another reason. Although he was able to make and ferment a dough in less than 24 hours, which is a period that Norma would like to use at market, he did not come across as being ecstatic with the overall results even with the micro-blistering. In his own words, this is what Jeff said:

I noticed some very good blistering from the pizza and that is something I like. It was a little tough for my own taste. I like a bit of crunch but for the pizza to tear easily. Hopefully extra fridge time helps with this. We will find out. The bottom was great, and it had about the perfect integrity I look for in slice characteristics. The dough was quite flavorless as expected.

So, micro-blistering per se is not necessarily the end all and be all that some people might want or expect. To be truly happy or satisfied, micro-blistering alone is unlikely to be enough.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for showing Jeff's example to demonstrate how difficult it is to unravel and decipher the secrets that surround the creation of micro-blisters. 

I was too busy yesterday to conduct any real experiments, because I had no helper, and I was busy even though the whole market wasn't.  I have been getting new customers from Pizza Quixote's article and an Root's ad they put in the local newspaper this past Monday. 

I did coat one rim with oil while it was on the peel, but that whole pizza was sold so quickly, and I didn't have time to examine the rim closely.  In the meantime, when I had that pizza in the oven two more customers came up and ordered multiple whole pizzas.  That and more whole pizza orders kept me stepping until the end of the day.  I did coat part of the rim skin of the last pizza before it was really set/or maybe after it was set in the oven. 

I think after these photos I need to pay more attention to how much flour I use to coat my dough balls.  I tried to take photos as close as I could with my camera, being the pizzas were hot, and my camera doesn't take really good close-up photos.  After looking at them in high resoution it kind of turns me against pizza.  :-X The whole pizzas didn't look that bad, but the close-up shots made me curious about what does a pizza really look like before we eat them.  I would have never thought my pizzas really look like the close-up photos.   :o

The first photos are of my regular rim crusts with nothing done to them. I really think what might have looked like micro-blisters are just flour on the rim crusts.  The last photos, of the golden rim, was when the rim was coated with oil, might have showed a couple of micro-blisters, but maybe they really weren't mirco-blisters.  :-\

If I find time, I would like to make another dough with Tony's flour to see if I can achieve the same blistering that just happened before.

Norma

Edit:  The second photo down was a regular crust photo that was taken in the warmer cabinet.  It did not have any oil applied to the rim.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 08:28:28 AM by norma427 »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30775
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1208 on: January 28, 2015, 08:33:47 AM »
Norma

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 30700
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1209 on: January 28, 2015, 10:32:34 AM »
Norma,

There is no particular urgency to the experiments using oil or misted water on the rims. Whenever you can work the experiments into your work schedule is fine. In the meantime, other members may also decide to test out some of the theories on micro-blistering.

FYI, I finally made it through all of the posts on the forum containing the words blister, blisters and blistering. One of the interesting things that I picked up from that exercise was how different people use those terms in different ways and to mean different things. For example, some people use the term blister or blisters as being synonymous with bubbles. They are usually thinking of large blisters that are bubble size. This use tends to be most common among professionals, including Tom Lehmann, Jeff Zeak and others. Even General Mills uses the terms in the same manner. See, for example, the FAQ on blisters at http://www.generalmillscf.com/industries/pizzeria/support-tool-categories/technical-support/pizza-dough-troubleshooting. Micro-blistering of pizza crusts does not seem to be much of an issue with professionals, even in the pizza realm. In the artisan bread realm, microblistering is often viewed as a defect and to be avoided.

I also found that some members used the various blister terms to mean leoparding, especially the small brown or black spots on the rims of pizzas such as Neapolitan style pizzas. I also noted that some members were interested in micro-blistering but for the bottoms of crusts, not the rims. These members were usually trying to replicate the micro-blistered bottom crusts of pizzas made by the chains or other operators such as Shakey's, Round Table and Tommy's (of Columbus, Ohio).

In going through the posts, I was also looking for explanations on how micro-blisters are produced from a scientific standpoint, either for bread or pizza. To preserve what I found on this score, I have set them forth below in excerpted form. Here they are:

1. I ran across an interesting explanation for blistering on bread which I assume is akin to leoparding on Neapolitan pizza.

The assertion is that blisters are caused by the exterior dough cells losing gas faster than it is generated.  Many collapse except for scattered ones which then accumulate water from the crust when baked to generate the blister.

This explanation is consistent with the observations that only well-fermented doughs leopard as those doughs would be generating less gas and their cell walls would be weakening
. (Reply 54 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6214.msg82772#msg82772)

2. This "sufficient strength" is the result of long fermentations especially when the dough proofs in its final shape, thus allowing for increased surface exposure and a higher degree of moisture loss to the outside environment (especially pronounced under refrigerated conditions).  The reason the Tartine (or any long-proved loaves) have blisters is the same reason they have significantly thicker crusts than similar loaves with shorter proofing times:  lower water-activity on the surface of the dough at the time of baking.  Outwardly migrating moisture is hence trapped by the dough's having developed a thicker skin, with the characteristic blisters forming, protruding like goosebumps that, in a very hot environment, will selectively brown more than an even, lower surface.

In short, less reducing sugars (general dough caramelisation), more amino acids (Maillard browning) and a thicker dough skin (greater rate of blisters formed) are the primary reasons for leoparding from a dough's perspective.
(Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=23321.msg288713#msg288713)

3. Anyway Peter, you mention in your well-written report  beginning with the last paragraph.... 2nd sentence that upon baking you noticed that the crust had blisters.  As you know, that condition is simply caused by escaping gas from the crust.  Gas is lost more quicker in cooling dough than it is being made in the dough due to a matter of course, because cooling increases the solubility of the carbon dioxide in the water. Upon baking... the water in the crust will accumulate in   the small cells remaining & form the blistering.  No- matter some people think that condition is desireable. (Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3342.msg28308#msg28308)

4. Simply put, blistering is caused by gas escaping from the crust while the dough mass is in the refridgerator (sic) being in retard mode.

You see my friend, gas is lost more quickly in cool dough because cooling increases the solubility of carbon dioxide in water.  Upon baking the pie, the water that has accumulated in the small cells that are remaining form the blisters.

Some customers think having those are sexy.  I do not pay any attention to those things.
(Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7740.msg36179#msg36179 (Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7740.msg36179#msg36179)

5. In response to the last entry, by member November: I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion.  The solubility of CO2 in water does indeed increase inversely with temperature, but with that being the case, less gas will escape during cold fermentation, not more.  Those blisters are in fact filled with water, alcohol, and liquid waste products from the yeast; so beginning with your explanation of what happens in the oven, you are correct, but cold fermentation doesn't have anything to do with it.  I've acquired those blisters on a very predictable basis, and I rarely cold ferment my dough. (Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7740.msg36180#msg36180)

6. This is very similar to the surface blistering you get from a retarded Tartine loaf.  The cold environment, somehow, help degrade the gluten in the dough.  During baking, this allows the CO2 gasses to escape up to the surface of the crust and form blisters.  A cold fermented dough baked in a very hot WFO will form blistering much easier although they tend to be larger blisters compared to the micro blistering you get from RT fermentation.  Maybe, this is also part of the reason why most NP pizzerias here in the US prefer to do cold ferment than RT (aside from the ease of use). (Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=23321.msg236637#msg236637)

7. I have a strong hunch that it is indeed steam/moisture in the oven that is large factor in creating these small blisters. The pizza in my post was actually steam baked (covered a la Tartine) for half its bake time. I wanted to see if this would create an open crumb with great rise and indeed it did -- along with microblisters. The steam hyper-accelerates the expansion of gas.

I would think that the drier the oven the less likely one is to get these small blisters. So (roughly) a coal oven or electric oven would be worse, a WFO a little better because of the moisture in the fuel, then gas, then steam and gas...or something along those lines. Temp factors as well. I don't think the temp has to be high at all -- I deliberately baked the pizza above at 425 F. Blasphemy I know ;) but the crust was amazing and the bones delicious. They were like fantastic, textured, tender bread sticks that I wish I got when eating out!
(Reply 42 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17508.msg172322#msg172322)

Knowing that your interest is in being able to achieve micro-blistering in a straight, one-day cold fermented dough at market, made in accordance with the rules that you have to live by at market, I paid special attention to the threads and posts where members described how they made pizzas with micro-blistered rims in short periods of time. I did not limit myself to only a one-day dough but any dough between an emergency dough and a three-day dough, just in case there was a way of achieving micro-blistering in a period of time that would work for you at market. I found several examples but I need to drill down into the threads and posts I found to understand them more fully. However, what I did find is that there were members who were able to achieve micro-blistering of the rims of their pizzas in doughs less than three days (either cold fermented or at room temperature, or maybe even some of each) but often there was a wrinkle of some sort, such as using an LBE, MBE, WFO, a specially configured home oven, a Black Stone oven, the broiler of a conventional home oven, or convection. So, a lot of top heat appeared to be involved in creating micro-blisters. I will perhaps have more to say on this matter, as well as the broader issue of the effects of long fermentation on micro-blistering, and also the use of preferments and other possible methods to help achieve micro-blistering, once I have studied the threads and posts more fully.

Peter





A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 28066
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1210 on: January 28, 2015, 10:46:04 AM »
I haven't thought much about it, but my gut feeling is that leoparding and blistering are distinct processes.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30775
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1211 on: January 28, 2015, 03:08:49 PM »
Norma,

There is no particular urgency to the experiments using oil or misted water on the rims. Whenever you can work the experiments into your work schedule is fine. In the meantime, other members may also decide to test out some of the theories on micro-blistering.

FYI, I finally made it through all of the posts on the forum containing the words blister, blisters and blistering. One of the interesting things that I picked up from that exercise was how different people use those terms in different ways and to mean different things. For example, some people use the term blister or blisters as being synonymous with bubbles. They are usually thinking of large blisters that are bubble size. This use tends to be most common among professionals, including Tom Lehmann, Jeff Zeak and others. Even General Mills uses the terms in the same manner. See, for example, the FAQ on blisters at http://www.generalmillscf.com/industries/pizzeria/support-tool-categories/technical-support/pizza-dough-troubleshooting. Micro-blistering of pizza crusts does not seem to be much of an issue with professionals, even in the pizza realm. In the artisan bread realm, microblistering is often viewed as a defect and to be avoided.

I also found that some members used the various blister terms to mean leoparding, especially the small brown or black spots on the rims of pizzas such as Neapolitan style pizzas. I also noted that some members were interested in micro-blistering but for the bottoms of crusts, not the rims. These members were usually trying to replicate the micro-blistered bottom crusts of pizzas made by the chains or other operators such as Shakey's, Round Table and Tommy's (of Columbus, Ohio).

In going through the posts, I was also looking for explanations on how micro-blisters are produced from a scientific standpoint, either for bread or pizza. To preserve what I found on this score, I have set them forth below in excerpted form. Here they are:

1. I ran across an interesting explanation for blistering on bread which I assume is akin to leoparding on Neapolitan pizza.

The assertion is that blisters are caused by the exterior dough cells losing gas faster than it is generated.  Many collapse except for scattered ones which then accumulate water from the crust when baked to generate the blister.

This explanation is consistent with the observations that only well-fermented doughs leopard as those doughs would be generating less gas and their cell walls would be weakening
. (Reply 54 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6214.msg82772#msg82772)

2. This "sufficient strength" is the result of long fermentations especially when the dough proofs in its final shape, thus allowing for increased surface exposure and a higher degree of moisture loss to the outside environment (especially pronounced under refrigerated conditions).  The reason the Tartine (or any long-proved loaves) have blisters is the same reason they have significantly thicker crusts than similar loaves with shorter proofing times:  lower water-activity on the surface of the dough at the time of baking.  Outwardly migrating moisture is hence trapped by the dough's having developed a thicker skin, with the characteristic blisters forming, protruding like goosebumps that, in a very hot environment, will selectively brown more than an even, lower surface.

In short, less reducing sugars (general dough caramelisation), more amino acids (Maillard browning) and a thicker dough skin (greater rate of blisters formed) are the primary reasons for leoparding from a dough's perspective.
(Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=23321.msg288713#msg288713)

3. Anyway Peter, you mention in your well-written report  beginning with the last paragraph.... 2nd sentence that upon baking you noticed that the crust had blisters.  As you know, that condition is simply caused by escaping gas from the crust.  Gas is lost more quicker in cooling dough than it is being made in the dough due to a matter of course, because cooling increases the solubility of the carbon dioxide in the water. Upon baking... the water in the crust will accumulate in   the small cells remaining & form the blistering.  No- matter some people think that condition is desireable. (Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3342.msg28308#msg28308)

4. Simply put, blistering is caused by gas escaping from the crust while the dough mass is in the refridgerator (sic) being in retard mode.

You see my friend, gas is lost more quickly in cool dough because cooling increases the solubility of carbon dioxide in water.  Upon baking the pie, the water that has accumulated in the small cells that are remaining form the blisters.

Some customers think having those are sexy.  I do not pay any attention to those things.
(Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7740.msg36179#msg36179 (Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7740.msg36179#msg36179)

5. In response to the last entry, by member November: I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion.  The solubility of CO2 in water does indeed increase inversely with temperature, but with that being the case, less gas will escape during cold fermentation, not more.  Those blisters are in fact filled with water, alcohol, and liquid waste products from the yeast; so beginning with your explanation of what happens in the oven, you are correct, but cold fermentation doesn't have anything to do with it.  I've acquired those blisters on a very predictable basis, and I rarely cold ferment my dough. (Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7740.msg36180#msg36180)

6. This is very similar to the surface blistering you get from a retarded Tartine loaf.  The cold environment, somehow, help degrade the gluten in the dough.  During baking, this allows the CO2 gasses to escape up to the surface of the crust and form blisters.  A cold fermented dough baked in a very hot WFO will form blistering much easier although they tend to be larger blisters compared to the micro blistering you get from RT fermentation.  Maybe, this is also part of the reason why most NP pizzerias here in the US prefer to do cold ferment than RT (aside from the ease of use). (Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=23321.msg236637#msg236637)

7. I have a strong hunch that it is indeed steam/moisture in the oven that is large factor in creating these small blisters. The pizza in my post was actually steam baked (covered a la Tartine) for half its bake time. I wanted to see if this would create an open crumb with great rise and indeed it did -- along with microblisters. The steam hyper-accelerates the expansion of gas.

I would think that the drier the oven the less likely one is to get these small blisters. So (roughly) a coal oven or electric oven would be worse, a WFO a little better because of the moisture in the fuel, then gas, then steam and gas...or something along those lines. Temp factors as well. I don't think the temp has to be high at all -- I deliberately baked the pizza above at 425 F. Blasphemy I know ;) but the crust was amazing and the bones delicious. They were like fantastic, textured, tender bread sticks that I wish I got when eating out!
(Reply 42 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17508.msg172322#msg172322)

Knowing that your interest is in being able to achieve micro-blistering in a straight, one-day cold fermented dough at market, made in accordance with the rules that you have to live by at market, I paid special attention to the threads and posts where members described how they made pizzas with micro-blistered rims in short periods of time. I did not limit myself to only a one-day dough but any dough between an emergency dough and a three-day dough, just in case there was a way of achieving micro-blistering in a period of time that would work for you at market. I found several examples but I need to drill down into the threads and posts I found to understand them more fully. However, what I did find is that there were members who were able to achieve micro-blistering of the rims of their pizzas in doughs less than three days (either cold fermented or at room temperature, or maybe even some of each) but often there was a wrinkle of some sort, such as using an LBE, MBE, WFO, a specially configured home oven, a Black Stone oven, the broiler of a conventional home oven, or convection. So, a lot of top heat appeared to be involved in creating micro-blisters. I will perhaps have more to say on this matter, as well as the broader issue of the effects of long fermentation on micro-blistering, and also the use of preferments and other possible methods to help achieve micro-blistering, once I have studied the threads and posts more fully.

Peter

Peter,

I will try to work in some experiments each week at market. 

Thanks for being a real trooper in going through all of the posts on the forum containing the words blister, blisters and blistering.  I knew there would probably be different members using the terms to mean different things, but I didn't look for those posts.  I did search on the web a little and saw blistering, blisters can have different meanings.  Thanks for the link to General Mills about blistering.

Thanks also for setting forth explanations on how micro-blisters are produced from a scientific standpoint, either for bread or pizza, and also finding all those links to where there are good discussions.  I will have to read over your links different times to understand all what is posted.

You are right that I am interested in being trying to be able to achieve micro-blistering in a straight, one day cold ferment dough at market, so it was good you paid special attention to the threads where members described how they made their pizzas with micro-blistered rims in short periods of time, or times that were not too long. 

I will look forward if you have more to say on the matter of micro-blistering.

Norma

Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 28066
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1212 on: January 28, 2015, 03:15:26 PM »
Norma, would you try something at the market - take your normal pizza and either before or after you top it, paint the conicione with a good coat of water and see what happens when it bakes - don't change anything else from what you normally do.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30775
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1213 on: January 28, 2015, 03:31:56 PM »
Norma, would you try something at the market - take your normal pizza and either before or after you top it, paint the conicione with a good coat of water and see what happens when it bakes - don't change anything else from what you normally do.

Craig,

I will try your suggestion at market next week.  I think I might need to use parchment paper on the peel though because of a possible sticking issue.  Is parchment paper okay, as long as I remove it after the crust is set?  A mess in my ovens can take a long while to get cleaned up.

Norma

Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 28066
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1214 on: January 28, 2015, 03:40:50 PM »
Parchment is fine. I'm just curious if it will cause blistering on the cornicione.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30775
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1215 on: January 28, 2015, 03:57:00 PM »
Parchment is fine. I'm just curious if it will cause blistering on the cornicione.

Thanks about the parchment paper being okay Craig.  I am also curious if the water on the rim will cause blistering.

Norma

Offline nick57

  • In Memoriam
  • Posts: 4898
  • Location: Tulsa OK
  • Rest In Peace - March 2020
Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1216 on: January 28, 2015, 04:28:43 PM »
Most of my pies start off on parchment for a couple of minutes. The pic of the pie I posted earlier was started on parchment. I don't notice too much difference on the rise, color or the crispness if any.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 28066
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1217 on: January 28, 2015, 04:57:37 PM »
The big difference is the look of the bottom.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30775
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1218 on: January 28, 2015, 05:36:25 PM »
Most of my pies start off on parchment for a couple of minutes. The pic of the pie I posted earlier was started on parchment. I don't notice too much difference on the rise, color or the crispness if any.

Nick,

Thanks for telling us that most of your pies start off on parchment paper for a few minutes.

Norma

Offline nick57

  • In Memoriam
  • Posts: 4898
  • Location: Tulsa OK
  • Rest In Peace - March 2020
Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1219 on: January 28, 2015, 06:17:32 PM »
Glad to be of help. Just got through with another KASL/DMP experiment. I got some good blisters on the bottom. The crust was one of crispest  I have made. I do think that using parchment may not contribute to even browning as in the pic. Sometimes I have a nice even browning over the bottom, but some of the time I get what is in the pic.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


 

wordpress