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Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1220 on: January 28, 2015, 06:51:51 PM »
Glad to be of help. Just got through with another KASL/DMP experiment. I got some good blisters on the bottom. The crust was one of crispest  I have made. I do think that using parchment may not contribute to even browning as in the pic. Sometimes I have a nice even browning over the bottom, but some of the time I get what is in the pic.

Nick,

You did get good blisters on the bottom crust.  I like diastatic malt in a dough too for crispness on the bottom crust.  Your bottom crust looks fine to me.  All of my bottom crusts don't brown as evenly as others do.  All I look for is an even as I can bottom crust color.  The crunch when the pizza slicer slices through the pizza, is more of an important indicator to me if the pizza will be crisp enough.  My stones don't always bake evenly like some better deck ovens do.  When rotating all the time you can hit a hot spot or a cooler spot.

Norma

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1221 on: January 28, 2015, 09:17:51 PM »

  Gotta keep track of those hot spots Norma.   8)
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Offline rparker

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1222 on: January 29, 2015, 12:19:01 AM »
Norma (and others), I've got some of that LDM from Central Milling coming in what I hope is Tomorrow. I just wanted to verify that the "2%" was the baker's percentage used, and not part of the product description. If not, would you be willing to point me to the reply where you spelled it all out? My search could not come up with it. 

Thanks,

Roy

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1223 on: January 29, 2015, 01:42:16 AM »
  Gotta keep track of those hot spots Norma.   8)

Bob,

I would like to do that, but since my decks are so small it is hard to do.  Most of my pizzas have to be baked on the right side of the decks.  There are almost always slices going in the oven for reheats, and my pies need rotated different times.

Norma


Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1224 on: January 29, 2015, 01:54:27 AM »
Norma (and others), I've got some of that LDM from Central Milling coming in what I hope is Tomorrow. I just wanted to verify that the "2%" was the baker's percentage used, and not part of the product description. If not, would you be willing to point me to the reply where you spelled it all out? My search could not come up with it. 

Thanks,

Roy

Roy,

Tony does recommend using 2% diastatic malt, such as the diastatic malt from Central Milling, but the 2% might need to be changed if you are using higher oven temperatures. 

Going to higher temperatures is likely to affect how the sugars from the diastatic malt, and also the dextrose, will impact crust coloration.  So it pays to monitor how the crust bakes.  The above quote is what Peter posted in his last paragraph at 228 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34845.msg358205#msg358205

Norma

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Offline rparker

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1225 on: January 29, 2015, 06:48:12 AM »
Roy,

Tony does recommend using 2% diastatic malt, such as the diastatic malt from Central Milling, but the 2% might need to be changed if you are using higher oven temperatures. 

Going to higher temperatures is likely to affect how the sugars from the diastatic malt, and also the dextrose, will impact crust coloration.  So it pays to monitor how the crust bakes.  The above quote is what Peter posted in his last paragraph at 228 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34845.msg358205#msg358205

Norma
Hi Norma, thanks for that.

I assume by adjusting that it means downwards. "higher temp" is an ambiguous term. In Pete's clipped except, the author mentions 550 as being his preference, but 500 is in his book  to establish the broadest user groups of commoners that he could.

Whichever way, I'm going with suggested (2%) with more traditional NY temps for the first 2-4 pies anyhow.

btw, you wouldn't happen to have a video posted of your drop and stretch procedure using bench flour, would you? I want to see where I am by comparison on the flour usage. 

Thanks again,

Roy

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1226 on: January 29, 2015, 08:55:34 AM »
Hi Norma, thanks for that.

I assume by adjusting that it means downwards. "higher temp" is an ambiguous term. In Pete's clipped except, the author mentions 550 as being his preference, but 500 is in his book  to establish the broadest user groups of commoners that he could.

Whichever way, I'm going with suggested (2%) with more traditional NY temps for the first 2-4 pies anyhow.

btw, you wouldn't happen to have a video posted of your drop and stretch procedure using bench flour, would you? I want to see where I am by comparison on the flour usage. 

Thanks again,

Roy

Roy,

Yes, maybe for higher temperatures above 550 the diastatic malt might need to be reduced doneward.  I think the diastatic malt added at 2%-5% (especially over 2%) is for when home pizza makers can't get higher temperatures in their home ovens. 

If you would like to see me opening a dough ball back in 2010, when I was making pizza for less than a year, this is one of those videos. 



You can see I didn't use a lot of bench flour, and any kind of bench flour is okay.  I use rice flour to coat the wooden peel.  You also can see at that time I did not make boardwalk style pies, but regular NY style pies.  For two more examples of me opening preferment Lehmann dough balls, back about the same time, the videos are at Reply 179 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg89267#msg89267  If you use the full screen feature on your computer, it can be seen not an excess amount of bench flour was used.  Now I use less bench flour.  I think some of the keys to be able to open a dough ball okay, is to have your dough mixed right, and to have the dough fermented enough, and also to warm the dough ball up so it opens easier. 

Norma
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 09:03:06 AM by norma427 »

Offline rparker

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1227 on: January 29, 2015, 12:04:03 PM »
Perhaps I'll start a little bit less then. I often do mine on the BS at 575F-625F these days.

Thanks for the link. I watched them a few times. I've been spreading mine out a bit more on the board before lifting and stretching. It looks like yours opened right up without having to do a whole lot before the stretch. Mine behave more like the first video than the second video most of the time. Once it's off the counter and getting stretched, I mean.

Do you drop it into a bowl of flour before starting the finger-pressing?

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1228 on: January 29, 2015, 04:27:08 PM »
Norma,

I finally completed my review of the posts containing the word "blister" in several forms. I would have been done sooner but I decided to expand my search using the words "micro" and "blister" in various forms, both hyphenated and unhyphenated, and I also did a search on the issue of oiling the rims of dough skins.

After reviewing all of the posts, I reaffirmed my previous position on the significance of fermentation as a material cause of blistering of the rims of pizzas and, in particular, the significance of an advanced state of fermentation as a probable cause. If I were to try to frame what I found, I would say that the duration of the fermentation that was most common among the members was around three days. However, the actual range was anywhere from about three days to over several weeks. I did find several cases where the fermentation window was shorter than three days and where meaningful microblistering was achieved, but in most of these cases special factors, usually heat related, were involved. Some of these cases were quite involved so to keep this post at a reasonable length, I will discuss them in a later post.

How the advanced fermentation condition mentioned above was achieved varied quite widely. But if I were to summarize the ways, they would be as follows:

(i) using a small amount of yeast, in any form, and a prolonged cold fermentation (for example, from three days to several weeks);

(ii) using a larger amount of yeast, in any form, than under (i), coupled with a shorter fermentation time;

(iii) using a combination of cold fermentation and room temperature fermentation, in either sequence;

(iv) using a preferment leavened with commercial yeast;

(v) using a natural starter/sourdough;

(vi) using an epoxy or similar dough; and

(vii) using defrosted frozen dough containing an above average amount of yeast

In the context of the last paragraph, it seemed that the odds of getting material microblistering of the rims of pizzas were increased when the state of fermentation was very advanced. Chau often used the term "exhaustion" to describe this condition. And, earlier in this thread, at Reply 1135 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg361250#msg361250, Walter described this condition as "near dead".

In reviewing the posts, I also considered the possible effects of the tempering of dough on the creation of microblisters. But, as I saw it, unless the tempering of the dough pushed the dough to the exhaustion or near dead conditions that Chau and Walter mentioned, I did not see a direct correlation between tempering and the creation of microblisters.

As mentioned in an earlier post, I also was not able to find examples of microblistering for emergency doughs, as I defined emergency doughs in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8297.0. That left a gap of between about four hours and three days. I found several cases that fell into that gap and where microblistering was achieved. But, as mentioned above, these will be discussed in a later post.

As for the matter of oiling the rims of skins to achieve microblistering, the evidence strongly suggests that oiling the rims may help with microblistering. CaptBob demonstrated that effect earlier in this thread at Reply 1191 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg361861#msg361861, member chickenparm advocated doing this in Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=15898.msg156363#msg156363, and Chau agreed in Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17508.msg172338#msg172338. However, I am not convinced that oiling a rim is a sole cause of microblistering. Rather, I think that other conditions also have to be present, such as an advanced state of fermentation and/or a lot of top heat, and without which the net effect of oiling the rim of the dough would be to provide a bit more crust color and taste. However, you may prove me wrong on this if you use a one-day cold fermented dough and your normal oven heat at market.

I also tend to agree with Craig that moisture on the rim is needed and may be a condition precedent to achieving microblistering. As I see it, a dough that has sustained a long period of fermentation may have a fair amount of surface moisture due to the effects of the protease enzymes and acids of fermentation (the more the better) attacking the gluten network and possibly releasing water from its chemical bond. In so doing, the dough surface may be weak and amenable to the formation of blisters. Hopefully, your tests where you mist or coat the rims with water will tell us more on this matter, especially since your dough will have only one day of fermentation.

I do not have an opinion on the possible role of oil in the dough on the creation of microblisters other than to restate my previous finding that when I looked at the photos of Papa John's clone pizzas that used around 7% oil and long fermentation times, I could not find any microblisters.

I also did not see a correlation between the type of flour used or the hydration value and the creation of microblistering. It is possible that a strong flour, if properly made into a dough with good strength and good retention of the gases of fermentation, may be conducive to microblistering, but our members used many different types of flours and got microblistering. As for the hydration values, I have seen doughs that exhibited microblistering at around 50% hydration and over 65% hydration.

Peter

Offline JD

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1229 on: January 29, 2015, 05:49:41 PM »
I did find several cases where the fermentation window was shorter than three days and where meaningful microblistering was achieved, but in most of these cases special factors, usually heat related, were involved. Some of these cases were quite involved so to keep this post at a reasonable length, I will discuss them in a later post.


When/where do you expect to elaborate on the special factors you speak of? I'm curious because the two pizzas of mine below were both 24hr cold ferments and have evidence of blistering. The only "special" thing I do is a longer use of the broiler, but it is because my broiler is not very powerful. My 24hr cold ferments use 0.3% IDY, so certainly not an exhausted state of dough.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34538.msg358448#msg358448
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34538.msg354704#msg354704
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1230 on: January 29, 2015, 06:30:27 PM »
When/where do you expect to elaborate on the special factors you speak of? I'm curious because the two pizzas of mine below were both 24hr cold ferments and have evidence of blistering. The only "special" thing I do is a longer use of the broiler, but it is because my broiler is not very powerful. My 24hr cold ferments use 0.3% IDY, so certainly not an exhausted state of dough.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34538.msg358448#msg358448
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34538.msg354704#msg354704
Josh,

I hope to complete my work on this project before the new forum upgrade is made.

I actually did find your thread in one of my searches, and that was because Gags (Ryan) made reference to microblisters. However, that was in reference to your using a steel plate. I missed the single case (I believe) where you used the Thorley stone and achieved microblistering. Overall, I looked at over 1400 posts and while there was a lot of overlap, I still had to look at each post and where it fit within the rest of the threads. I knew that I would miss some things.

In my last post, I did not mean to suggest that microblistering only occurs with doughs at death's door. I made doughs that lasted over twenty days in cold fermentation and were not at death's door even then. But from what I read, being at death's door increased the likelihood of microblistering.

Another member who made two-day cold fermented doughs that exhibited microblisters on the rims is chickenparm, whom you mentioned in your thread. He also used the broiler but he also used other methods, including a stone at a temperature of around 620-630 degrees F. His bake times were very short so he had to have a lot of heat, including a lot of top heat, in order to bake his pizzas in 4-5 minutes in some cases.

Everything I have done on this project had two purposes: To learn more about microblistering, especially in the context of a standard home setting with a typical oven, and also to help Norma try to achieve microblistering in her operation at market with a one-day cold fermented dough that is subject to all of the rules and constraints that she has to live by at market. And using her specific oven at market. Much of what I learned will not help her much but I will most likely give her some tips to try.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1231 on: January 29, 2015, 07:06:52 PM »
Perhaps I'll start a little bit less then. I often do mine on the BS at 575F-625F these days.

Thanks for the link. I watched them a few times. I've been spreading mine out a bit more on the board before lifting and stretching. It looks like yours opened right up without having to do a whole lot before the stretch. Mine behave more like the first video than the second video most of the time. Once it's off the counter and getting stretched, I mean.

Do you drop it into a bowl of flour before starting the finger-pressing?

Roy,

You can try whatever temperature you want in your Blackstone.  Probably each formulation would bake differently at different temperatures.  Baking pizzas is a learning experience.

Each member probably has different stretching methods.  I am not saying what is on those videos is what to follow.  Sometimes I press out the whole dough ball and don't form a rim at all, then go to hand stretching.  That also works, and there still is good rim rise during the bake.

Yes, I do coat both sides of the dough ball with flour before starting the finger pressing.  Any excess of flour should be shaken off some.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1232 on: January 29, 2015, 07:22:49 PM »
Peter,

I will respond more to your post at Reply 1228 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg362301#msg362301   after I have time to ponder all you posted.

Mike (Essen1) sent me this photo of blistering on the rim crust that he achieved recently.  Mike told me the final dough temp was (61F), the fermentation time (24hrs) and oven temp was 560 degrees F.  Malt used was the (OME) Central Milling and Tony's Artisan flour.  Mike also told me that the rim crust wasn't oil-brushed, water-brushed or anything. It was a straight up dough with a two-hour bench rest to come up to temp before going in.  Bake temperature was 560 degree F.

I told Mike I thought his blistering looked beautiful.

It looks like a 24 hr. dough isn't really hard to achieve when the right ingredients are added.  What do you think?

Norma

Edit:  My mistake. 

The dough was 61F when it went into the oven, not the finished dough. The finished dough was 65F when it came off the hook and went into the fridge
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 08:04:19 PM by norma427 »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1233 on: January 29, 2015, 07:37:46 PM »
It looks like a 24 hr. dough isn't really hard to achieve when the right ingredients are added.  What do you think?

Norma
Norma,

I am aware of a couple of instances where members made 24-hour cold fermented doughs and got decent blistering. One was for a NY style and the other was for a Pizza Hut clone pan pizza. Of course, neither used the Mauri low-diastatic malt or Tony's new Artisan flour, so we have little prior experience on the forum with such ingredients as they relate to the creation of microblisters.

My recollection is that Mike has a different stone than most of our members use and that it does better than a standard Cordierite stone. Whether that changes things I have no idea. But I was always impressed by the artisan quality of pizzas that Mike made with that stone.

In your case, should you succeed in achieving a one-day cold fermented dough using the Mauri low-diastatic malt and Tony's Artisan flour, you will be left with a decision to make as to whether you are prepared to use those ingredients at market and to pay to get them to market. But, that aside, I look forward to your results using the above combination of ingredients.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1234 on: January 29, 2015, 07:44:04 PM »
Peter,

I will respond more to your post at Reply 1228 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg362301#msg362301   after I have time to ponder all you posted.

Mike (Essen1) sent me this photo of blistering on the rim crust that he achieved recently.  Mike told me the final dough temp was (61F), the fermentation time (24hrs) and oven temp was 560 degrees F.  Malt used was the (OME) Central Milling and Tony's Artisan flour.  Mike also told me that the rim crust wasn't oil-brushed, water-brushed or anything. It was a straight up dough with a two-hour bench rest to come up to temp before going in.  Bake temperature was 560 degree F.

I told Mike I thought his blistering looked beautiful.

It looks like a 24 hr. dough isn't really hard to achieve when the right ingredients are added.  What do you think?

Norma

 You think your customers would like that dark rim?
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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1235 on: January 29, 2015, 07:45:06 PM »
Norma,

I thought that Mike was using a Thorley stone so I did a forum search and confirmed that. Here is what Mike said about that stone:

Regarding the Thorley kiln shelf...when I bought mine it was a big step up to the American Metalcraft cordierite I had before. It holds the heat much, much better and recovers very nicely. (Reply 844 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8093.msg204882;topicseen#msg204882)

Josh (JD) also uses a Thorley stone.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1236 on: January 29, 2015, 08:00:07 PM »
Norma,

I am aware of a couple of instances where members made 24-hour cold fermented doughs and got decent blistering. One was for a NY style and the other was for a Pizza Hut clone pan pizza. Of course, neither used the Mauri low-diastatic malt or Tony's new Artisan flour, so we have little prior experience on the forum with such ingredients as they relate to the creation of microblisters.

My recollection is that Mike has a different stone than most of our members use and that it does better than a standard Cordierite stone. Whether that changes things I have no idea. But I was always impressed by the artisan quality of pizzas that Mike made with that stone.

In your case, should you succeed in achieving a one-day cold fermented dough using the Mauri low-diastatic malt and Tony's Artisan flour, you will be left with a decision to make as to whether you are prepared to use those ingredients at market and to pay to get them to market. But, that aside, I look forward to your results using the above combination of ingredients.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for telling me you are aware of instances where members made 24-hour cold fermented doughs and got decent blistering.  Mike didn't use the Mauri low-diastatic malt.  He used Central Milling organic malt. 

I haven't tried Tony's Artisan flour with the Mauri low-diastatic malt yet.  I know there are Artisan flours at my flour distributor but I have no idea what is in them.  Maybe in the future I will have to find out.  There is a local bakery & specialty foods show at my local distributor in the beginning of March.  Is there anything I should ask the distributors about a Artisan flour, or something else before, or when I go to that event?

I made a mistake in my last post.  This is what Mike told me.

The dough was 61F when it went into the oven, not the finished dough. The finished dough was 65F when it came off the hook and went into the fridge

I will edit my last post to reflect what Mike now told me.

Norma

Offline Essen1

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1237 on: January 29, 2015, 08:13:28 PM »
Norma,

I thought that Mike was using a Thorley stone so I did a forum search and confirmed that. Here is what Mike said about that stone:

Regarding the Thorley kiln shelf...when I bought mine it was a big step up to the American Metalcraft cordierite I had before. It holds the heat much, much better and recovers very nicely. (Reply 844 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8093.msg204882;topicseen#msg204882)

Josh also uses a Thorley stone.


Peter

Peter,

I still stand by that statement. The Thorley kiln shelf is an extremely good stone for pizza.

However, I have since gotten another one, custom-made and cut to 22" W x 17.5" D x 5/8" by californiapizzastones.com. I now use both stones and start on the lower one then finish on the top stone. Attached is a pic of new set-up and the first pie made on the new stone.
Mike

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1238 on: January 29, 2015, 08:20:49 PM »
Mike,

Thanks for posting that. I, too, play around with two stones and use them the same way you do. But I believe that in his new book Tony G recommends starting on the top stone and them moving to the bottom stone. He does it to move the pizza from a cooling spot to a hotter one, much as one would do on a single stone in a commercial deck oven. What is your reason for using the two stones?

Peter

Offline jvp123

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1239 on: January 29, 2015, 08:26:40 PM »
Just thought I'd share a video as it may relate to the blistering conversation.

Jeff Zeak mentions using cold dough out of the cooler as another way that blisters can form, but perhaps he means the larger bubbles that can blow up and not micro blisters?

He mentions it at around 7:50.

Jeff

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