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Arctic Pizza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1460 on: April 05, 2015, 10:13:24 PM »
Vedic,

Thanks!  Other members have had better results in creating blisters than I do.  My dough doesn't have a lot of fat in the dough, and so far I have had better results when using the dough about as warm as it can get up to a point.  The warmer the dough seems like the more blistering happens so far for me.  I know in France blistering is looked at as a fault in baguettes.  I have no idea how they view pizza crusts in France.  I know some professionals in America look for good blistering in when they judge pizzas.  I am just on the journey to see if I can achieve blistering in one day cold fermented doughs.

Norma

believe it's temperature relativity.. when i make yorkshire puddings, a refrigerated batter will make those blisters..  a warm batter won't.   basically, the gas bubbles try to escape but trapped too fast cos the temp in the oven is so high relative to the dough temp.

 fat meaning, oil... don't u add oil to your dough?


Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1461 on: April 05, 2015, 10:28:36 PM »
believe it's temperature relativity.. when i make yorkshire puddings, a refrigerated batter will make those blisters..  a warm batter won't.   basically, the gas bubbles try to escape but trapped too fast cos the temp in the oven is so high relative to the dough temp.

 fat meaning, oil... don't u add oil to your dough?

Vedic,

Thanks for your explanations!  I think bread is easier to get blisters than pizza rim crusts.  I do add 1.75% oil to the boardwalk style dough.

Norma

Arctic Pizza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1462 on: April 05, 2015, 10:31:18 PM »
Vedic,

Thanks for your explanations!  I think bread is easier to get blisters than pizza rim crusts.  I do add 1.75% oil to the boardwalk style dough.

Norma

yes, because bread dough isn't opened up and "squeezed down" as in the pizza process, which is antithesis of breadmaking.

some of your doughs that open quicker and handled less may get more blisters.

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1463 on: April 06, 2015, 07:32:19 AM »
yes, because bread dough isn't opened up and "squeezed down" as in the pizza process, which is antithesis of breadmaking.

some of your doughs that open quicker and handled less may get more blisters.

Vedic,

I don't think an easier to open one day cold fermented dough gave me any blistering yet.  I have tried some really easy to open one day doughs with Sprite and the rim crusts didn't have the blistering.  Do you get any blistering in your rims crusts?

Norma

Arctic Pizza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1464 on: April 06, 2015, 08:27:38 AM »
Vedic,

I don't think an easier to open one day cold fermented dough gave me any blistering yet.  I have tried some really easy to open one day doughs with Sprite and the rim crusts didn't have the blistering.  Do you get any blistering in your rims crusts?

Norma

generally, doughs that have been fermented more than 2-3 days and are cold blister best when i bake

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Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1465 on: April 06, 2015, 08:54:52 AM »
generally, doughs that have been fermented more than 2-3 days and are cold blister best when i bake

Vedic,

Thanks for telling us what doughs blister better for you.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1466 on: April 07, 2015, 09:48:13 PM »
I tried Chau's idea at Rely 223 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10826.msg374105#msg374105 to brush some oil like Chau posted, and then use a squeeze bottle to apply the oil.  I messed up with the oiling but did get some blisters on two pies.  I tried the pan whiz butter alternative I had at market.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1467 on: April 07, 2015, 10:00:27 PM »
Norma,

Can you tell us how long the dough fermented and whether you had to use the heating cabinet this time of year? And did you try a pizza without the oil on the rim? I'm still trying to link cause and effect.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1468 on: April 07, 2015, 10:35:46 PM »
Norma,

Can you tell us how long the dough fermented and whether you had to use the heating cabinet this time of year? And did you try a pizza without the oil on the rim? I'm still trying to link cause and effect.

Peter

Peter,

The dough fermented for a little more than a day for the pizzas above.  I am still using the heating cabinet because I like to open the doughs when they are warmer.  I am also too busy to keep enough dough balls on the bench for warming them up.  There really isn't a lot of room on the bench for warming up dough balls.  I did try a pizza with no oil on the rim right before the pizza above.  This was the one pizza that got not much of any blistering without any oil on the rim.  This pizza was baked right before the oiled rim ones.

Do you have anymore ideas what causes blistering?

Norma

Offline JD

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1469 on: April 08, 2015, 07:58:12 AM »
Norma, your crumb shot "022" looks amazing!
Experience cannot be taught.

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Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1470 on: April 08, 2015, 09:34:02 AM »
Norma, your crumb shot "022" looks amazing!

Thanks Josh!

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1471 on: April 08, 2015, 12:45:27 PM »
Peter,

Do you have anymore ideas what causes blistering?

Norma
Norma,

The answer to you question is an elusive one. For example, if someone were to ask me how to achieve microblistering of the rim of a pizza, I would perhaps start by saying that after looking at over 1500 posts on the forum using the term blister in one form or another, and allowing for the fact that I may have missed some posts where the pizzas had blisters but the term was not used, the occurrence of blistering was most often associated with doughs that had long fermentation windows, however achieved. It would be based strictly on numbers. If I had to pick a cutoff point that increased the likelihood of microblistering, it would perhaps be two days, but with three or more days being better.

I would then add that for doughs that have short fermentation windows, such as those associated with emergency doughs as I have defined that term, it would be highly unlikely to achieve microblistering. Again, it would be based strictly on numbers and having looked at the photos of the emergency dough recipes given at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8297.msg71576#msg71576. I suspect that if one were to be able to achieve microblistering with an emergency dough, it would most likely not be using a standard unmodified home oven with say, a single stone or some other carrier and where the pizza is baked conventionally in the lower to middle part of the oven. But I am always willing to be proven wrong on this point. The solution might be using the convection feature, if available, or using a stone/broiler combination of some sort or something else that subjects the pizza to blistering heat.

When we look at the period between say, four hours and one day, the pickings get slimmer. I found only a few examples of decent microblistering in that window. And, often there were other factors, such as using two stones, a baking steel, the broiler, the convection feature, a commercial oven, or a special oven like the Black Stone oven. The best I could do would be to provide links to the threads or posts where those measures were discussed but I could not guarantee that the person would get microblistering.

Next, I would mention oiling the rim of a skin as a possible way of inducing microblistering. However, as I have mentioned a few times before, I do not believe that oiling the rim is an independent cause of microblistering. I think it is complementary cause where other conditions are also present, such as those discussed above.

Over time, as more examples of microblistering come to light, I might alter my stance on this subject. I actually welcome that. I am looking for answers, not for examples that only support my positions, aka confirmation bias, which I am ever mindful of and try to avoid.

To the above I would add that just because a dough has been subjected to a long fermentation that is consistent with the formation of microblisters, it doesn't necessarily follow that there should be microblistering. To test this thesis, I went back to the Papa John's clone thread and looked at the photos of the pizzas that were made from doughs that had three or more days of cold fermentation and, in a few cases, much longer. Those photos did not show any microblistering, nor do I recall mentioning microblisters. It is possible that the dough formulation had something to do with that, especially the very high values of sugar and oil that act to retain moisture in the dough, but maybe it was because the pizzas were baked on screens rather than on stones and at conventional oven temperatures.

Just as it might be difficult to tell someone how to get microblistering, it is likely to be equally difficult to tell someone why they did not get microblistering after they followed advice on how to get it.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1472 on: April 08, 2015, 05:10:43 PM »
Norma,

The answer to you question is an elusive one. For example, if someone were to ask me how to achieve microblistering of the rim of a pizza, I would perhaps start by saying that after looking at over 1500 posts on the forum using the term blister in one form or another, and allowing for the fact that I may have missed some posts where the pizzas had blisters but the term was not used, the occurrence of blistering was most often associated with doughs that had long fermentation windows, however achieved. It would be based strictly on numbers. If I had to pick a cutoff point that increased the likelihood of microblistering, it would perhaps be two days, but with three or more days being better.

I would then add that for doughs that have short fermentation windows, such as those associated with emergency doughs as I have defined that term, it would be highly unlikely to achieve microblistering. Again, it would be based strictly on numbers and having looked at the photos of the emergency dough recipes given at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8297.msg71576#msg71576. I suspect that if one were to be able to achieve microblistering with an emergency dough, it would most likely not be using a standard unmodified home oven with say, a single stone or some other carrier and where the pizza is baked conventionally in the lower to middle part of the oven. But I am always willing to be proven wrong on this point. The solution might be using the convection feature, if available, or using a stone/broiler combination of some sort or something else that subjects the pizza to blistering heat.

When we look at the period between say, four hours and one day, the pickings get slimmer. I found only a few examples of decent microblistering in that window. And, often there were other factors, such as using two stones, a baking steel, the broiler, the convection feature, a commercial oven, or a special oven like the Black Stone oven. The best I could do would be to provide links to the threads or posts where those measures were discussed but I could not guarantee that the person would get microblistering.

Next, I would mention oiling the rim of a skin as a possible way of inducing microblistering. However, as I have mentioned a few times before, I do not believe that oiling the rim is an independent cause of microblistering. I think it is complementary cause where other conditions are also present, such as those discussed above.

Over time, as more examples of microblistering come to light, I might alter my stance on this subject. I actually welcome that. I am looking for answers, not for examples that only support my positions, aka confirmation bias, which I am ever mindful of and try to avoid.

To the above I would add that just because a dough has been subjected to a long fermentation that is consistent with the formation of microblisters, it doesn't necessarily follow that there should be microblistering. To test this thesis, I went back to the Papa John's clone thread and looked at the photos of the pizzas that were made from doughs that had three or more days of cold fermentation and, in a few cases, much longer. Those photos did not show any microblistering, nor do I recall mentioning microblisters. It is possible that the dough formulation had something to do with that, especially the very high values of sugar and oil that act to retain moisture in the dough, but maybe it was because the pizzas were baked on screens rather than on stones and at conventional oven temperatures.

Just as it might be difficult to tell someone how to get microblistering, it is likely to be equally difficult to tell someone why they did not get microblistering after they followed advice on how to get it.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your long and informative post about blistering.  I don't think I am going to try a lot to get blistering at market anymore.  It is too sporadic when I do get blistering in a one day cold fermented dough rim crust. 

I tried a overfermented dough ball yesterday and didn't get any blisterings.  Another thing was that the rim crust was not as dark as normal, and the flavor of the crust changed.  The taste of the crust was not better.  In fact, it didn't even taste as good as my normal one day cold fermented dough crust. 

Norma

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1473 on: April 09, 2015, 12:23:14 PM »
We don't need no stinking blisters!!   :-D
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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1474 on: April 09, 2015, 12:51:58 PM »
Great response Peter.  You rock.  Thanks for asking Norma.  I'd like to figure out blisters some day.

Dave

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Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1475 on: April 09, 2015, 03:20:55 PM »
We don't need no stinking blisters!!   :-D

Why not Bob?  I think they are cool!

Great response Peter.  You rock.  Thanks for asking Norma.  I'd like to figure out blisters some day.

Dave

I agree Peter gave a great response.  I also would like to figure out how to get blisters with each attempt at trying to get them.

Norma


Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1476 on: April 09, 2015, 03:25:49 PM »
This was the dough ball I left out to ferment too long.  As can be seen the rim crust didn't have much of any color.  The weirdest part is that it didn't taste as good as the normal pizza crusts I make.  I can't figure out if when the rim crust get darker if that also give more flavor to the crust.   :-\  The pizza was baked until it was done.

Norma

Offline rparker

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1477 on: April 09, 2015, 03:37:04 PM »
Norma, you can make anything you try coming looking good. On the flavor thing, I wonder if there's a point of no return? Maybe once it gets past a certin point and all the sugars are eaten up, or something. I dunno. I've had that happen and was a bit curious. nothing like that ball, though. that's impressive.  ;D

On the blister thing, a break from the experiments might be a good thing. Step away from the situation a bit and the answer becomes obvious. I've solved many an issue on the way home, stuck in traffic on a bridge a mile away from work.

best luck with all that, anyhow,

Roy

Arctic Pizza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1478 on: April 09, 2015, 03:40:31 PM »
Why not Bob?  I think they are cool!

I agree Peter gave a great response.  I also would like to figure out how to get blisters with each attempt at trying to get them.

Norma

Temperature dynamics.  A good analogy is if you pour a can of warm coca cola into a glass.  The fizz lingers and binds onto itself and is quite different compared to if you pour an ice cold can of coke into glass.  If you look carefully, you'll see carbon dioxide in the cold example more "excited" and popping in the air.

The same applies to the co2 gases trapped in your pizza dough. I've observed the microblistering occuring in doughs cold fermented >1-2 days and baked cold in a hot oven >550 deg farenheit.

I don't see much microblistering in same day dough or  >4 day dough.  Nor do I see any on room temperature dough.

My pizza dough uses 3% fat/oil, a mixture of crisco and vegetable oil.  One last observation is you need a very hot pizza oven or home oven that is preheated long enough.  Baking a cold dough onto a pizza stone minimum 550 degrees and walls and ceiling measured at 550 minimum.  I've not failed to produce microblisters with cold dough hitting a hot oven both at my workplace and at home given these conditions.

« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 03:54:24 PM by Arctic Pizza »

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1479 on: April 09, 2015, 04:31:56 PM »
Temperature dynamics.  A good analogy is if you pour a can of warm coca cola into a glass.  The fizz lingers and binds onto itself and is quite different compared to if you pour an ice cold can of coke into glass.  If you look carefully, you'll see carbon dioxide in the cold example more "excited" and popping in the air.

The same applies to the co2 gases trapped in your pizza dough. I've observed the microblistering occuring in doughs cold fermented >1-2 days and baked cold in a hot oven >550 deg farenheit.

I don't see much microblistering in same day dough or  >4 day dough.  Nor do I see any on room temperature dough.

My pizza dough uses 3% fat/oil, a mixture of crisco and vegetable oil.  One last observation is you need a very hot pizza oven or home oven that is preheated long enough.  Baking a cold dough onto a pizza stone minimum 550 degrees and walls and ceiling measured at 550 minimum.  I've not failed to produce microblisters with cold dough hitting a hot oven both at my workplace and at home given these conditions.

Vedic,

Thanks for you post about temperature dynamics!  I wonder why you don't see much micoblistering in a 4 day dough.  Do you have any photos of your pizzas with microblisterings?

Norma

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