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Offline mtancock

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Flat dough
« on: March 27, 2019, 10:33:05 AM »
At the weekend, I made my second batch of Neapolitan dough using my new 25KG back of Caputo Pizzeria flour.

I'd made some the week before and noticed that it was slightly more sticky than the flour I was using previously at 62% hydration, so I dropped down to 60% hydration.

This week however, feeling lazy, I stuck it in my food mixer w/ spiral dough hook (It's a Kenwood Chef XL if anyone cares). To avoid having to scrape the bowl manually I put the water in first, then flour. Followed by my usual 2% salt and this time what I think works out as 0.05% instant yeast (based on around 20 hour RT prove). I mixed it on the lowest speed for about 9 minutes.

It seemed pretty smooth when I took it out.

I did around 13 hours bulked at RT before balling it up and doing the last 7 hours in balls. When balling I noticed that the dough seemed way more sticky than normal - I don't normally get dough stuck to my hands, but this time it did.

After balling, within about an hour, the balls had gone pretty flat. This continued, to the point that by the time I was ready to cook they were very thin and very spread out - I had trouble getting the first couple out of my tray at all 'til I figured out a technique that didn't end up with the dough ball full stretched before I even got it to my work top. I had to use a bit more bench flour than normal to stop it sticking to my (wooden) board.

The pizzas cooked and tasted "fine" (I'm still not happy, but that's the perfectionist in me) - they cooked in around 45-60s in my PP running on gas and got a decent spring, leoparding etc. example attached.

Normally my dough is tricky to open because it's a little too elastic - when I attempt the lift and "slap" technique to stretch the skin that I see people do on youtube, it has no effect. (Part of my reasoning for switching to Caputo is I suspected my previous flour at 14% protein was part of the problem)

This week I was at the complete opposite end of the spectrum - I couldn't even pick the dough up without it stretching everywhere.

Did I over mix the dough? Or is there some other explanation?

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Flat dough
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2019, 11:19:59 AM »
I've got a bag of Caputo Pizzeria Flour (blue bag) that I've been working with lately and one thing I can say about it is that it sure doesn't have tolerance for much more than 12 to 18-hours of total fermentation. When I evaluated it for fermentation tolerance I saw the same thing that you are seeing. The next time you make your dough schedule your fermentation sequence to keep thew total dough fermentation within the 12 to 18-hour window. You don't mention anything about the finished dough temperature, this can also have a significant impact upon how much fermentation the flour/dough will exhibit.
As you were previously using a 14% protein content flour (All Trumps?) I'm assuming it was a U.S. milled flour which is very different from Italian milled flour. One of the greatest differences I'm seeing is in fermentation tolerance. U.S. milled flours are milled from wheat varieties that are bred for fermentation tolerance as one of their breeding criteria. Another is protein strength, our wheat varieties are bred to have high protein content and also high strength (elastic) characteristics. Italian flours are designed to have a shorter fermentation tolerance and a significantly more extensible gluten characteristic. If your pizzas were OK with the 14% protein content flour but the dough was just too difficult to open a better approach might have been to just change to a lower protein content flour, possibly something in the 10.8 to 12% protein content range.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline mtancock

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Re: Flat dough
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2019, 11:38:25 AM »
Thanks for the reply - I'll definitely try a shortened prove time and see how that works out.

The thing that was startling to me was how different the results were from the previous week with a similar ferment time, but much less kneading (and by hand).

I'm actually in the UK, the flour I was using before is a supermarket brand of "00 pasta flour" https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/waitrose-super-fine-00-grade-pasta-flour/860186-261004-261005 which doesn't have much info available (that I can find) other than the nutritional info which states 14.1g protein per 100g.

Offline Irishboy

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Re: Flat dough
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2019, 12:58:54 PM »
I have a 20 lb bag Pizzeria and I noticed the same thing at 62% I did 30 hours at 65 degrees with 58% and I had no issues at all doughballs stayed pretty good but at 60 62% it was the same experience as you had. The dough opens very easily and no problems at all. I am also using a pizza party oven and I have used some high protein flour with success but you have to be careful of the malt in them. There are also some higher protein content Italian flour that you may find more useful to you but I will try lowering the hydration two around 58%


I have believed the hydration rate for that flour is 55 through 57%


Here is information



https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3285.0
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 01:05:54 PM by Irishboy »
Josh

Offline HansB

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Re: Flat dough
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2019, 01:35:00 PM »
I have a 20 lb bag Pizzeria and I noticed the same thing at 62% I did 30 hours at 65 degrees with 58% and I had no issues at all doughballs stayed pretty good but at 60 62% it was the same experience as you had. The dough opens very easily and no problems at all. I am also using a pizza party oven and I have used some high protein flour with success but you have to be careful of the malt in them. There are also some higher protein content Italian flour that you may find more useful to you but I will try lowering the hydration two around 58%


I have believed the hydration rate for that flour is 55 through 57%


Here is information



https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3285.0



Yep, 55-57%.  http://caputoflour.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/00-Pizzeria-SPECS.pdf
Instagram @hans_michigan

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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Flat dough
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2019, 01:58:17 PM »
The flour that you've referenced is a durum semolina flour which is not well suited for use by itself as a pizza flour but it can be blended with a regular bread type flour at levels of up to 25% for improved chew and crispiness. The problem with durum semolina flour is that it produces a dough with EXTREMELY tough, elastic properties. This is a characteristic of the durum wheat from which this type of flour is milled, it's a different type of wheat than what is used for making regular bread type flours. I would suggest that you pick up a bag of any regular white flour suitable for making bread and give that a try, I'm betting it'll work better for you. Once you begin making pizzas more to your liking you can begin experimenting by blending in some of the Caputo and/or semolina flour that you have to see if you like the characteristics imparted by these flours when used as a blending flour.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Flat dough
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2019, 03:56:37 PM »
The flour that you've referenced is a durum semolina flour which is not well suited for use by itself as a pizza flour but it can be blended with a regular bread type flour at levels of up to 25% for improved chew and crispiness. The problem with durum semolina flour is that it produces a dough with EXTREMELY tough, elastic properties. This is a characteristic of the durum wheat from which this type of flour is milled, it's a different type of wheat than what is used for making regular bread type flours. I would suggest that you pick up a bag of any regular white flour suitable for making bread and give that a try, I'm betting it'll work better for you. Once you begin making pizzas more to your liking you can begin experimenting by blending in some of the Caputo and/or semolina flour that you have to see if you like the characteristics imparted by these flours when used as a blending flour.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Tom,

Which of the flours referenced in earlier posts are you referring to as being a durum semolina flour?

Peter

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Flat dough
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2019, 04:52:36 PM »
Peter;
It was the one referenced in the link in reply#2.
Tom Lehmann/the Dough Doctor

Offline mtancock

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Re: Flat dough
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2019, 06:18:00 PM »
Thanks for all the info everyone - lots to try here I think.

Really upsetting that I'm going to have eat so much pizza.  :-D

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Flat dough
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2019, 06:27:51 PM »
The flour that you've referenced is a durum semolina flour which is not well suited for use by itself as a pizza flour but it can be blended with a regular bread type flour at levels of up to 25% for improved chew and crispiness. The problem with durum semolina flour is that it produces a dough with EXTREMELY tough, elastic properties. This is a characteristic of the durum wheat from which this type of flour is milled, it's a different type of wheat than what is used for making regular bread type flours. I would suggest that you pick up a bag of any regular white flour suitable for making bread and give that a try, I'm betting it'll work better for you. Once you begin making pizzas more to your liking you can begin experimenting by blending in some of the Caputo and/or semolina flour that you have to see if you like the characteristics imparted by these flours when used as a blending flour.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

But hey... if he wants to make pasta?? It would work exceptionally well!  :-D Just add eggs and VOILA! Pasta!  :chef:

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Offline parallei

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Re: Flat dough
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2019, 08:04:58 PM »
Tom,

Which of the flours referenced in earlier posts are you referring to as being a durum semolina flour?

Peter

Waitrose Super Fine 00 Grade Pasta Flour:

FORTIFIED WHEAT FLOUR (wheat flour, calcium carbonate, iron, niacin, thiamin), durum wheat semolina, wheat gluten

It appears to have some portion of durum, and added gluten.  Who knows?


Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Flat dough
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2019, 09:18:59 PM »
Waitrose Super Fine 00 Grade Pasta Flour:

FORTIFIED WHEAT FLOUR (wheat flour, calcium carbonate, iron, niacin, thiamin), durum wheat semolina, wheat gluten

It appears to have some portion of durum, and added gluten.  Who knows?

Yeah... it seriously would make some beautiful pasta. I'm not joking. We use a 50/50 mix here at work of Ardent Mills durum wheat semolina, Ardent Mills strong baker's flour and eggs.  Beats store bought pasta all to bits.  :chef:

Offline IzzysPizzaBus

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Re: Flat dough
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2019, 10:28:15 PM »
I'm having this problem with Caputo 00 Americana, just bought it last week and not impressed at all. (Honestly KA Sir Lancelot is doing this for me, too.) I use the same formula as I have had great success with, only using this flour instead of my usual KA Bread flour. This stuff doesn't rise at all. It looks like a pancake with pizza toppings, awful. Flavor is good, but the look and feel and structure is terrible. I am not sure what is the big difference, so looking into all the specs right now to figure it out.
Mine is 64% hydration, I use 15% starter, and let it bulk ferment for 2 hours then ball and in the fridge for 3 days. After mix it is 72F. It comes out awful, structure wise. It balls up amazing but goes down from there. Glad it's not just me having issues.

Offline mtancock

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Re: Flat dough
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2019, 06:57:48 AM »
Following up on this:

I did an 8-9 hour prove at 57% hydration with the Caputo flour yesterday and they came out beautifully - best to work with out of my ~3 years of trying to make pizza. Feel like that gives me a good baseline to experiment with now - thanks!


Offline Brent-r

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Re: Flat dough
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2019, 10:25:23 AM »
you should be pretty pleased with that one ... I would be.

maybe I should say I would have been because it would have been gone (in less than 60 seconds !!)
Brent

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Offline hotsawce

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Re: Flat dough
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2019, 02:03:49 PM »
Itís the starter - not the flour.

I'm having this problem with Caputo 00 Americana, just bought it last week and not impressed at all. (Honestly KA Sir Lancelot is doing this for me, too.) I use the same formula as I have had great success with, only using this flour instead of my usual KA Bread flour. This stuff doesn't rise at all. It looks like a pancake with pizza toppings, awful. Flavor is good, but the look and feel and structure is terrible. I am not sure what is the big difference, so looking into all the specs right now to figure it out.
Mine is 64% hydration, I use 15% starter, and let it bulk ferment for 2 hours then ball and in the fridge for 3 days. After mix it is 72F. It comes out awful, structure wise. It balls up amazing but goes down from there. Glad it's not just me having issues.

Offline IzzysPizzaBus

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Re: Flat dough
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2019, 10:51:33 AM »
Itís the starter - not the flour.
It was def not the starter. It was water temp mostly, and the malt. Change water to 45F, add oil during autolyse per John Arena, and take malt away. Perfect every time. Major props to John Arena for the help. Also finding to get that real rise, I needed to add a little ADY with it.

Offline pizzainthe6ix

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Re: Flat dough
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2019, 08:57:36 PM »
I was just about to make a similar post....I normally only work with Caputo and this seems to be a common problem for me.  I am wondering if I am giving anything up with cooking, flavour, etc.  It makes my life hard with proofing space, opening dough the right size, etc. I was always paranoid it was not kneaded enough/strong enough to hold form

To Tom's point, it is happening right around the 14-16hr mark for me; however, there are tons of other people using this flour in the 48hr proofing time so I am confused.

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