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Author Topic: Dough comes out very flexible, stretchy and thin  (Read 942 times)

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Offline illuvatar

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Dough comes out very flexible, stretchy and thin
« on: April 20, 2021, 06:32:03 PM »
I've been making my own pizzas for a couple months and very often the pizzadough still comes out very flexible when I start shaping it (but not sticky). It's quite uneven where some parts are very thin and picking it up after it's stretched into shape creates small holes. Also it's then pretty difficult to move the dough to my perforated metal peel, and even more difficult (if not impossible) to launch it after sauce, cheese and toppings are applied. Not because it's sticky but because the dough is just so flimsy and easily breakable, especially with the weight of the toppings. I've also experienced a few times where I was able to launch the pizza onto the stone in my ooni koda, but then still a small hole formed, which made it stick to the stone and screwed up the pizza.

This is my method and recipe:
  • caputo 00 red flour
  • 65% hydration
  • 3% salt
  • 0.4% instant dry yeast from caputo
  • 230g per doughball

What I do:
  • mix all dry ingredients in a bowl
  • add lukewarm water bit by bit
  • knead in the bowl untill everything is incorporated
  • move to counter and knead by hand for about 7 minutes
  • let the dough sit covered at RT (20C) for about 2 hours
  • move the dough to a tightly covered bowl and put it in the fridge for about 48 hours
  • take bulk dough out of the fridge and divide it into 230g portions and ball it
  • cover the balls and let it proof for about 4-5 hours at RT

So when I started to shape, the balls were quite flimsy and stretchy with lots of air in them. Stretching them was probably to easy as it came out very thin, with a risk of holes while moving it to or from the peel. So I guessed it was probably overproofed and I let it proof at RT for too long.
After that, I made another batch in the same way, except I let the doughballs proof at RT for about 2 hours. They were a bit less stretchy and flexible, and harder to shape into form. But the doughs were still very thin and hard to move to the peel, and hard to launch them with toppings.

What can I do to make my doughballs firmer? So they're not so thin and move more easily to and from my peel without risk of holes forming, but while still being possible to shape into a big enough pizza shape. I think if I let the doughballs proof at RT for even shorter, they're probably way too small and difficult to shape into form.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 06:35:19 PM by illuvatar »

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Dough comes out very flexible, stretchy and thin
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2021, 09:30:47 PM »
Almost 100% sure it's overfermented... do you have any pictures of the dough?? Tom was always against putting the dough into a tightly sealed container... it can cause the dough to continue to ferment for many hours before it actually cools down. Also.... .4% Idy is quite high for fermenting for that length of time. Like.... .4% Idy would likely be completely fermented at 5-6 hours RT. Without you changing anything, you probably should half the amount of yeast being used.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg511590#msg511590

This chart will give you an idea of how much yeast needed for how long you want to ferment.

Offline John_H

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Re: Dough comes out very flexible, stretchy and thin
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2021, 10:56:29 PM »
I would agree with qwerty Juan on the fermentation time.  Other than that I would suggest reducing the hydration to 60% and incrementally increase it when you feel more comfortable stretching with the lower hydration if your goal is a high hydration dough.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 10:58:21 PM by John_H »

Offline illuvatar

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Re: Dough comes out very flexible, stretchy and thin
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2021, 10:05:26 AM »
Thanks for both answers!

I agree that the dough was definitely overfermented (or overproofed?). Plus then leaving it at room temperature for 5 hours made it hard to work with. But the other batch I made, I only let sit balled at RT for about 1.5-2 hours.
So leaving the dough in the fridge doesn't completely deactivate the yeast activity? My dough wasn't in a completely tight container in the fridge, but just in a bowl covered with plasticwrap. I was under the impression yeast only starts working again when you pull it out of the fridge for the final proof at RT. So that's why I decreased the RT time from 5 to ~1.5 hours. But that, although better, was still pretty unworkable dough which stretched very unevenly and thin.

That yeast chart is a lifesaver! I'll definitely go down to 60% hydration and about 0.2% instant yeast.
A question about that chart though: what if you use both RT and CT? For instance, leaving it in bulk at RT for a few hours, then move it to the fridge, then leave it for an hour or two for final proof at RT. Which percentage to use then?

And what is a good amount of time to leave the dough at RT? (both before it goes into the fridge in bulk, and afterwards balled up)

Offline John_H

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Re: Dough comes out very flexible, stretchy and thin
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2021, 03:42:23 PM »
Thanks for both answers!

I agree that the dough was definitely overfermented (or overproofed?). Plus then leaving it at room temperature for 5 hours made it hard to work with. But the other batch I made, I only let sit balled at RT for about 1.5-2 hours.
So leaving the dough in the fridge doesn't completely deactivate the yeast activity? My dough wasn't in a completely tight container in the fridge, but just in a bowl covered with plasticwrap. I was under the impression yeast only starts working again when you pull it out of the fridge for the final proof at RT. So that's why I decreased the RT time from 5 to ~1.5 hours. But that, although better, was still pretty unworkable dough which stretched very unevenly and thin.

That yeast chart is a lifesaver! I'll definitely go down to 60% hydration and about 0.2% instant yeast.
A question about that chart though: what if you use both RT and CT? For instance, leaving it in bulk at RT for a few hours, then move it to the fridge, then leave it for an hour or two for final proof at RT. Which percentage to use then?

And what is a good amount of time to leave the dough at RT? (both before it goes into the fridge in bulk, and afterwards balled up)

Glad to help.  I'll share my experience until someone more knowledgeable chimes in.  I use around 0.3% yeast and after mixing usually leave my dough at RT for 1/2 - 1 hr before balling and going into CF for 2 days.  Then I take it out 2-3 hrs before making pies.  Works for me.

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Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Dough comes out very flexible, stretchy and thin
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2021, 08:51:58 PM »
Thanks for both answers!

I agree that the dough was definitely overfermented (or overproofed?). Plus then leaving it at room temperature for 5 hours made it hard to work with. But the other batch I made, I only let sit balled at RT for about 1.5-2 hours.
So leaving the dough in the fridge doesn't completely deactivate the yeast activity? My dough wasn't in a completely tight container in the fridge, but just in a bowl covered with plasticwrap. I was under the impression yeast only starts working again when you pull it out of the fridge for the final proof at RT. So that's why I decreased the RT time from 5 to ~1.5 hours. But that, although better, was still pretty unworkable dough which stretched very unevenly and thin.

That yeast chart is a lifesaver! I'll definitely go down to 60% hydration and about 0.2% instant yeast.
A question about that chart though: what if you use both RT and CT? For instance, leaving it in bulk at RT for a few hours, then move it to the fridge, then leave it for an hour or two for final proof at RT. Which percentage to use then?

And what is a good amount of time to leave the dough at RT? (both before it goes into the fridge in bulk, and afterwards balled up)

I seem to mention Tom alot... it's because he was THE MAN when it came to stuff like this... but I will mention him again... he was VERY much a fan of the KISS method (keep it simple, stupid) LOL!! And he was an advocate of balling and refrigerating your dough within 20 minutes of when you are done mixing. My opinion?? Mix that dough... DON'T RT ferment at all... ball and refrigerate for 48 hours... THEN take those little dough babies out of the fridge and give them that 4-5 hour RT that you are talking about. Don't need to follow my recommendation at all... but that is what I would suggest.

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Dough comes out very flexible, stretchy and thin
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2021, 08:59:04 PM »
P.S. I noticed you are hand mixing... so the initial 2 hour RT is probably needed to form gluten... so I would continue to use that, but I still think that using .2% yeast instead of the .4% would make all the difference in the world.

Offline Jackitup

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Re: Dough comes out very flexible, stretchy and thin
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2021, 01:46:45 AM »
Agree with what everyone said and will add this, ditch the warm water and use room temp/tap water or bottled water.
Jon

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Offline illuvatar

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Re: Dough comes out very flexible, stretchy and thin
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2021, 03:18:07 PM »
I just tried another batch with a lower amount of yeast of about 0.2% and it was much better. I let the dough rest at RT for about an hour and then put it in the fridge for 48 hours, and let it sit at RT for the final proof for 3 hours. Shaping was much easier and launching as well. Thanks for the charts, it really shows the right amounts of yeast!

I did try another mix of flour for this dough (80% caputo nuvola and 20% caputo 00 pizzeria (blue)) and got 2 questions that hopefully someone could help me with. I made it in my ooni koda 12 by letting the stone preheat to about 430C and then turn the flame down to about 1/4 when putting in the pizza, then let it bake for about 2minutes while almost constantly turning.
  • The pizza came out pretty good, but the dough was really spongy and soft, not crunchy at all. Air pockets also really weren't that big. The crust did puff up a bit, but not with air pockets but with spongy bread inside. Anything I could change in my baking method to make it a bit more crispy/crunchy or is the spongy and soft dough just inherent to the nuvola flour?
  • The pizza came out pretty evenly browned, with a few charred/burned parts here and there. I'm trying to go for a nice and evenly leopard spotted pizza, but it ended up just turning brownish everywhere. Any tips on how to achieve the leopard spotting?

And I'm experiencing one more issue on pretty much all my pizza's, no matter what type of dough, baking method or rising time/temperature I used; I always get burned spots right along the edge of the pizza on the bottom, pretty much covering the whole edge. Like in these pictures: https://imgur.com/a/rEv1PO8 
It even shows up on the bottom part where the corresponding top part above it is not burned/charred at all and it's pretty evenly around the bottom crust. Any ideas what causes this and how I could prevent the bottom edges from burning?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2021, 03:19:39 PM by illuvatar »

Offline megan45

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Re: Dough comes out very flexible, stretchy and thin
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2021, 07:53:44 PM »
The pizza came out pretty evenly browned, with a few charred/burned parts here and there. I'm trying to go for a nice and evenly leopard spotted pizza, but it ended up just turning brownish everywhere. Any tips on how to achieve the leopard spotting?

And I'm experiencing one more issue on pretty much all my pizza's, no matter what type of dough, baking method or rising time/temperature I used; I always get burned spots right along the edge of the pizza on the bottom, pretty much covering the whole edge. Like in these pictures: https://imgur.com/a/rEv1PO8 
It even shows up on the bottom part where the corresponding top part above it is not burned/charred at all and it's pretty evenly around the bottom crust. Any ideas what causes this and how I could prevent the bottom edges from burning?

Too much bottom heat, not enough top heat. You need to DECREASE the time the crust is in contact with the stone and INCREASE the flame (heat) above the pizza.

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Offline illuvatar

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Re: Dough comes out very flexible, stretchy and thin
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2021, 06:06:51 AM »
But how do I decrease the time it contacts the stone? I already pull it out after like 15 seconds with the ooni perforated metal peel amd turn it and put it back in. Should I cook it on the peel then?

It's the exact same issue as in this thread, and there isn't a definitive answer to be found there. https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=59828.0

Offline megan45

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Re: Dough comes out very flexible, stretchy and thin
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2021, 03:14:23 PM »
It's the exact same issue as in this thread, and there isn't a definitive answer to be found there. https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=59828.0

Actually, there are TWO definitive answers there: reduce the  total bake time or reduce the stone temperature.

Here's the thing: if the bottom is burning but the top isn't browning sufficiently, that means you've got too much heat on the bottom and not enough on the top. To rectify that, you need to do one of two things: A) reduce the stone temperature and leave the top heat alone, or B) increase the top temperature and leave the stone temperature alone.

A) increases the time the crust can sit on the stone before it starts to burn; that's the approach suggested by thezaman. B) increases the speed at which the top cooks, reducing the amount of time it takes for the pizza to cook; that's the approach suggested by patnugent.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Dough comes out very flexible, stretchy and thin
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2021, 03:28:20 PM »
IME, if you have a burnt ring around the bottom of the cornicione, it's caused by not putting the pizza in the exact same spot when turning it.  The reason is that the stone is too hot as it hasn't already given off heat to the pizza.

If you want a more crispy/crunchy pizza, then bake it for a bit longer at a lower temperature.
Jack

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Offline Anton1

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Re: Dough comes out very flexible, stretchy and thin
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2021, 11:09:18 AM »


That yeast chart is a lifesaver! I'll definitely go down to 60% hydration and about 0.2% instant yeast.
A question about that chart though: what if you use both RT and CT? For instance, leaving it in bulk at RT for a few hours, then move it to the fridge, then leave it for an hour or two for final proof at RT. Which percentage to use then?

And what is a good amount of time to leave the dough at RT? (both before it goes into the fridge in bulk, and afterwards balled up)

See reply #274 here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.260

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Offline illuvatar

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Re: Dough comes out very flexible, stretchy and thin
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2021, 02:59:39 PM »
See reply #274 here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.260

Anton1

Thanks, that explains a lot!

I'll definitely be watching more to put the pizza back on the same spot after turning, and also probably increasing the top heat and lowering the baking time.
Putting it back in the exact same spot is quite difficult however, since I only have the Ooni koda 12 and the ooni metal peel. So I take it out completely, turn it on the peel and then put it back in again, which doesn't make it easy to find the exact same spot.
I did order a small turning peel though and with that I can probably turn it easier while it's inside the oven since you can directly see the spot it was at and put it back there. I do have to watch out for burning then though and probably turn it very quickly.

Thanks for all your answers, I'm gonna be trying it again when the turning peel arrives!

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Offline illuvatar

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Re: Dough comes out very flexible, stretchy and thin
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2021, 03:29:55 PM »
Well, I just tried another batch (now that I got my turning peel), but it was the biggest failure I've ever had with making pizza. Nothing wrong about the turning peel, but my dough just was not working with me at all. It really wasn't overfermented since it was still quite firm and not really sticky. I left it to do the final proof for about 2 hours, but while shaping it, it was really really thin in the middle. Just a really uneven dough with some parts much thicker than others. I was still able to launch it, but I guess the middle broke during launching and practically everything besides the crust became stuck to the stone and burned away. The stone in my Ooni is completely black now. So yeah, F's in the chat, what a mess this was  ::)

I made the dough with about 80% caputo nuvola flour and 20% caputo pizzeria blue flour. 62% hydration, 3% salt and 0,2% IDY with 48hrs at CT and about 2 hours final proof at RT. Doughballs of about 240g.
I don't know what it was with this dough, but it just did not work at all. I don't think I'll be using the nuvola again. I'll just stick with the caputo blue or red flour.

I think my main issue comes down the the finalproof and shaping of the dough. It really felt like the dough was nicely proofed this time, it wasn't extremely flexible or sticky. But during shaping the middle just became so very thin.
How I do the stretching: I first push the middle of the doughball with my fingers without touching the crust (and also while not touching the exact middle) so a circle forms. Then I keep pushing it to the sides and turning it until it becomes big enough to edge-stretch like in this video. I gently keep doing that until it's the size I want. It was about 11 inches this time I think.
Any tips on what I can improve so my dough becomes more even after shaping, without the very thin parts? Is my doughball weight too small? Or am I missing something in the shaping methods?


On a sidenote: this issue I have with shaping and thin dough is probably also burning the bottom edges of my previous pizzas (like I mentioned a few posts earlier in this thread). This time I really saw the issue that causes it; the middle of the dough is just so thin that it puffs up in the oven. And because the dough is so uneven, the crusts are much more dense and heavy and so the bottom of the crust burns. Only this time, the unevenness of the dough was probably so bad that the sauce and cheese just fell through during launch and burned everything away.

Tips on making a more even dough that isn't so thin are very appreciated!

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Dough comes out very flexible, stretchy and thin
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2021, 10:12:34 PM »
I'm pretty sure Tom mentioned that he never any luck going over 24 hours with the Caputo flours? Maybe it's in my head, but I thought that. Try a shorter fermentation maybe? I remember Peter telling me years ago that certain flours are NOT suited to extended CF.

Maybe Peter can chime in??

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Dough comes out very flexible, stretchy and thin
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2021, 04:45:30 AM »
Leave a bulge of dough in the middle before you start edge stretching.
Jack

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Dough comes out very flexible, stretchy and thin
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2021, 05:48:00 PM »
I'm pretty sure Tom mentioned that he never any luck going over 24 hours with the Caputo flours? Maybe it's in my head, but I thought that. Try a shorter fermentation maybe? I remember Peter telling me years ago that certain flours are NOT suited to extended CF.

Maybe Peter can chime in??
QJ,

You are correct that from time to time Tom posted that in his experience he had a hard time getting long fermentation times our of some of the Caputo flours, with 12-24 hours being typical, and sometimes not even out to 24 hours. Here are a couple of sample posts by Tom:

Reply 3 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=52250.msg526260;topicseen#msg526260, and

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=56873.msg571455;topicseen#msg571455

To the above, I should add that some of the newer flours from Caputo can yield longer fermentation times. As somewhat a generalization, when the protein content of a given flour is on the high side and the protein is a strong protein, the flour will most likely allow for a longer fermentation time. Technically, such a flour would have a W value, called deformation energy, that is on the high side. I took a stab at defining "W" in the forum's Pizza Glossary at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_w

My definition of W was largely based on the definition provided by one of my favorite sources of flour terminology at the website at:

http://www.cooknaturally.com/detailed/detailed.html

Some years ago, I posted about different W values in relation to fermentation times at Reply 15 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4986.msg42545#msg42545

I can't vouch for the accuracy of the W values and related fermentation times set forth in Reply 15 but I cite that post to demonstrate that there is a clear relationship between W values and fermentation times. Reply 15 also lays out the significance of the numbers and how to find them with respect to particular flours.

As for the Caputo flours in particular, if you or others go to the Caputo entry in the thread I started at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.0, it will be seen that Caputo gives the W values for its various flours.

Peter


Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Dough comes out very flexible, stretchy and thin
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2021, 10:00:09 PM »
So, based on Tom's experience just a couple years ago, I would indeed try a 24hour ferment only and see what happens. This very well may be the problem!

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