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Author Topic: Heikjo's first attempt at NY style Lehmann (12" on stone)  (Read 4948 times)

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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Heikjo's first attempt at NY style Lehmann (12" on stone)
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2018, 11:52:15 AM »
Haven't been making much pizza for a while since we've been moving and renovating the kitchen, but I'm about to be on track again.

I was pretty happy where I left off. Today I've got a new oven that I'm quite happy with. It goes to 280C on over/under heating and 300C on large grill.

One thing I've been wanting to ask is about the flour and water relationship. I'm not using high-gluten flour. I'm using the flour with the highest protein level I've found in Norway, which is 13g. On Lehmann's dough calculator, it says:

Quote
Note: For high-gluten flour, hydration should be 58 - 65% (63% is recommended)
For bread flour, a lower hydration level is sometimes advised (56 - 64%)

Now, I've been increasing the hydration and been using 66% for a while. This has worked out fine, but what would happen if I went the other way? It was Tom who adviced the increase, so I have no reason to doubt him, but why is lower hydration recommended for bread flour?

I'll be making two balls today with 0.1 thickness factor rather than 0.105 as I've used before. It won't be today, but when I remember it, I'll try making the dough a two or three days before baking to see how that goes.

I've thought about ordering some King Arthur flour online. It'll be pricey, but would be interesting to test. I'm using bread flour with 13% protein according to the package. In older posts, KASL was hailed as the king, but in later posts I see a switch to bread flour. Perhaps there's not much difference after all then.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 12:26:41 PM by Heikjo »

Offline Heikjo

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Re: Heikjo's first attempt at NY style Lehmann (12" on stone)
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2018, 08:24:16 AM »
More of the same really. I still find the crust and maybe also bottom too chewy. I'm aiming for something softer that you don't need to really get your teeth out to work. I think I've gone a bit off track with the focus on crust size. I like an airy crust, but the texture is more important than size.

A little list of things I want to try:

- Lower hydration (58-62%), like Takrom did here
- Doubling the dough amount for better kneading in the mixer, letting half the balls sit in the fridge 3-4 days
- Testing different amounts of IDY
- Use this procedure for dough
- Testing different mixing times

A few pictures. I'm not very good at photographing pizzas. I just want to eat them right away. ;D Buffalo mozzarella, iberico ham, some parmesan and ruccola.

Offline Heikjo

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Re: Heikjo's first attempt at NY style Lehmann (12" on stone)
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2018, 05:04:06 AM »
Alright. Made a few pizzas last week, learned something and found lots of info in here.

On making the dough I went with 0.085 TF rather than my usual 0.105, and I liked this style better. One of the doughs got stretched a little too thin and a part of it ruptured during loading. Oops. We had guests, so my attention wasn’t fully on opening the balls. I want less fill in the form of a thick, chewy rim. I do want some rim thickness, but mostly by air and fluffyness. The rims came out softer this time, which I liked. I got some videos of the dough mixing which I might post later. Using a recipe with 750g of flour helped on the kneading, but towards the later parts of the kneading, the hook pushed the dough around more than it kneaded it. It's not always that the dough sticks to the hook and works as a Merry-Go-Round, but the bowl is too large for the dough size. Increasing the speed didn't do too much either. I calculated that speed 2 equals about 180-200 rpm., and speed 3 didn't seem to improve much on the job. I don't know how big of a deal it is or what I could expect from a better kneaded dough. I tried 60 and 61% water with 2% oil this time. Less fluffy rims, but I liked it. I might try a higher hydration with the lower TF to see how it comes out.

When it comes to fermentation I've had a few realizations. One is that I will start using fermentation boxes that I can see through. I found Craig's 'Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results' thread which made me realize I've not been watching this enough. My doughs has never risen much during CF with 0.25% IDY and 24 hour CF, not even after a few hours in RT before baking, which I see now is reasonable. According to Craig's table, a 0.25% IDY, at 3C should be sitting there for 65 hours. My doughs last week sat in the fridge for 1 to 3 days, and the later ones had developed more than those at 48 hours. I found a picture of one of them. It was dated to Friday Jan. 26, 16:30, and I believe I mixed it on Wednesday 19:30, so 45 hours in about 3ºC. The recipe used 0.3% IDY. According to Craig's table (which is a guideline) a CF at 3ºC with 0.3% IDY should ferment for around 52-53 hours. The scale I used isn't too accurate (500g/0.1g), but I got a better one at work (500f/0.01g) that I will bring back home. 0.1 works somewhat, but it struggles with registering the low weight of IDY and usually doesn't read anything until I reach 0.7g. One alternative is using the water trick to measure out smaller amounts, but I probably got my 0.01 scale for next time. The picture shows that it probably needed a bit more time.
Note to self: Dissolve first salt then IDY in water when using small amounts.

While looking for advice on fermentation, I came across Craig’s ‘Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor’ thread, which gave me new inspiration to start working on making sourdough/natural leavened pizzas. I will try using RT fermentation too. I got the time to make doughs during most parts of the day, so the convenience of CF is not that important. My wine cooler can run at 18ºC, which might be a good temperature for fermentation. I think using ambient room temperature is a bit too unpredictable. It's winter and the temperature will vary between 18-25ºC. The consistent temperature of the wine cooler will make things more predictable.
 ‘Craig's Neapolitan Garage’ also helped on this. My long term goal is making Neapolitan sourdough pizzas, but that won’t be until some years down the line. Currently living in an apartment where having a Neapolitan-hot oven is out of the question. I think an outdoor oven might be good in the future, like the Blackstone. With 20-30C in summers, a really hot indoor oven is not ideal. I’d rather have a good outdoor one that I can access all year. Won’t be until we get a house though. The Neapolitan part will have to wait, but I will start working on sourdough. I got a starter in the fridge that I’ve been using a couple of years now. Haven’t made anything with it for quite a while, so I’ll have to fresh it up first. I read a bit about Ischia starters and concluded that I’ll try using my own for now.

Heating the pizza stone for 2.5 hours (from cold oven) definitely helped on developing the bottom. It came out really nice with a bit of crustiness to it, but the thin parts were soft and nice. Bake time was 5-6 minutes at 280ºC. Not getting a whole lot of browning on the top, which I think is because of the dough, but it’s not a big deal. I might play around with more sugar.

I tried three different types of tomatoes and enjoyed a can of DOP the most. Some day I will start scouring the big and small stores in my city to see what I got to choose from. One of the cans were chunkier, and I should’ve smoothed it out with a blender before using on the pizzas. On a few pizzas I used red onions, but made the mistake of adding them before baking. The traditional pizzas here in Norway rarely adds stuff post bake, but I’ve found that many toppings are better added after baking.

I probably won't be able to make anything for 2-3 weeks due to work, but I'll put up some notes for then:

- Ferment in wine cooler at 18C in a clear bottomed container, using Craig's chart.
- Document fermentation process along the way.
- Dissolve IDY in water.

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: Heikjo's first attempt at NY style Lehmann (12" on stone)
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2018, 10:24:53 AM »
Alright. Made a few pizzas last week, learned something and found lots of info in here.


The pies below look great



I came across Craig’s ‘Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor’ thread, which gave me new inspiration to start working on making sourdough/natural leavened pizzas. I will try using RT fermentation too. I got the time to make doughs during most parts of the day, so the convenience of CF is not that important. My wine cooler can run at 18ºC, which might be a good temperature for fermentation. I think using ambient room temperature is a bit too unpredictable. It's winter and the temperature will vary between 18-25ºC. The consistent temperature of the wine cooler will make things more predictable.
 

IMHO it would be better if you picked a set percent of levain when you are working with sourdough (for example: 20% is what I use) and vary the times of Cold Temp Fermentation and Room Temp fermentation until you have found a flavor that you like.

Flavor is developed during cold fermentation. You will often see "Flavor Takes Time" phase being used by those that work with sourdough. The notion that cold fermentation is only for convenience, as suggested in the thread, is wrong.

Also, IMHO, avoid the "predictive models". Create you own levain, learn how to use it and make a pizza that is exactly how you like it.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline yarbrough462

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Re: Heikjo's first attempt at NY style Lehmann (12" on stone)
« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2018, 10:36:59 AM »
Alright. Made a few pizzas last week, learned something and found lots of info in here.

On making the dough I went with 0.085 TF rather than my usual 0.105, and I liked this style better. One of the doughs got stretched a little too thin and a part of it ruptured during loading. Oops. We had guests, so my attention wasn’t fully on opening the balls. I want less fill in the form of a thick, chewy rim. I do want some rim thickness, but mostly by air and fluffyness. The rims came out softer this time, which I liked. I got some videos of the dough mixing which I might post later. Using a recipe with 750g of flour helped on the kneading, but towards the later parts of the kneading, the hook pushed the dough around more than it kneaded it. It's not always that the dough sticks to the hook and works as a Merry-Go-Round, but the bowl is too large for the dough size. Increasing the speed didn't do too much either. I calculated that speed 2 equals about 180-200 rpm., and speed 3 didn't seem to improve much on the job. I don't know how big of a deal it is or what I could expect from a better kneaded dough. I tried 60 and 61% water with 2% oil this time. Less fluffy rims, but I liked it. I might try a higher hydration with the lower TF to see how it comes out.

When it comes to fermentation I've had a few realizations. One is that I will start using fermentation boxes that I can see through. I found Craig's 'Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results' thread which made me realize I've not been watching this enough. My doughs has never risen much during CF with 0.25% IDY and 24 hour CF, not even after a few hours in RT before baking, which I see now is reasonable. According to Craig's table, a 0.25% IDY, at 3C should be sitting there for 65 hours. My doughs last week sat in the fridge for 1 to 3 days, and the later ones had developed more than those at 48 hours. I found a picture of one of them. It was dated to Friday Jan. 26, 16:30, and I believe I mixed it on Wednesday 19:30, so 45 hours in about 3ºC. The recipe used 0.3% IDY. According to Craig's table (which is a guideline) a CF at 3ºC with 0.3% IDY should ferment for around 52-53 hours. The scale I used isn't too accurate (500g/0.1g), but I got a better one at work (500f/0.01g) that I will bring back home. 0.1 works somewhat, but it struggles with registering the low weight of IDY and usually doesn't read anything until I reach 0.7g. One alternative is using the water trick to measure out smaller amounts, but I probably got my 0.01 scale for next time. The picture shows that it probably needed a bit more time.
Note to self: Dissolve first salt then IDY in water when using small amounts.

While looking for advice on fermentation, I came across Craig’s ‘Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor’ thread, which gave me new inspiration to start working on making sourdough/natural leavened pizzas. I will try using RT fermentation too. I got the time to make doughs during most parts of the day, so the convenience of CF is not that important. My wine cooler can run at 18ºC, which might be a good temperature for fermentation. I think using ambient room temperature is a bit too unpredictable. It's winter and the temperature will vary between 18-25ºC. The consistent temperature of the wine cooler will make things more predictable.
 ‘Craig's Neapolitan Garage’ also helped on this. My long term goal is making Neapolitan sourdough pizzas, but that won’t be until some years down the line. Currently living in an apartment where having a Neapolitan-hot oven is out of the question. I think an outdoor oven might be good in the future, like the Blackstone. With 20-30C in summers, a really hot indoor oven is not ideal. I’d rather have a good outdoor one that I can access all year. Won’t be until we get a house though. The Neapolitan part will have to wait, but I will start working on sourdough. I got a starter in the fridge that I’ve been using a couple of years now. Haven’t made anything with it for quite a while, so I’ll have to fresh it up first. I read a bit about Ischia starters and concluded that I’ll try using my own for now.

Heating the pizza stone for 2.5 hours (from cold oven) definitely helped on developing the bottom. It came out really nice with a bit of crustiness to it, but the thin parts were soft and nice. Bake time was 5-6 minutes at 280ºC. Not getting a whole lot of browning on the top, which I think is because of the dough, but it’s not a big deal. I might play around with more sugar.

I tried three different types of tomatoes and enjoyed a can of DOP the most. Some day I will start scouring the big and small stores in my city to see what I got to choose from. One of the cans were chunkier, and I should’ve smoothed it out with a blender before using on the pizzas. On a few pizzas I used red onions, but made the mistake of adding them before baking. The traditional pizzas here in Norway rarely adds stuff post bake, but I’ve found that many toppings are better added after baking.

I probably won't be able to make anything for 2-3 weeks due to work, but I'll put up some notes for then:

- Ferment in wine cooler at 18C in a clear bottomed container, using Craig's chart.
- Document fermentation process along the way.
- Dissolve IDY in water.

I would definitely suggest Craig's prediction table.  The vast majority of us that make sourdough pizza successfully on here have that model to thank for it.  Craig has said many times that his model is just a starting point.  You will be in the ballpark for sure with the chart but some tweaking may be needed.  Long, room temp ferments are used almost exclusively in Naples.  The pizzas there, while not my thing texturally, are the best flavored I have ever eaten.  Cold fermented sourdough pizza, in my experience, usually leaves much to be desired in flavor profile.  Good luck with your pizza.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline mitchjg

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Re: Heikjo's first attempt at NY style Lehmann (12" on stone)
« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2018, 11:21:58 AM »
I would definitely suggest Craig's prediction table.  The vast majority of us that make sourdough pizza successfully on here have that model to thank for it.  Craig has said many times that his model is just a starting point.  You will be in the ballpark for sure with the chart but some tweaking may be needed.  Long, room temp ferments are used almost exclusively in Naples.  The pizzas there, while not my thing texturally, are the best flavored I have ever eaten.  Cold fermented sourdough pizza, in my experience, usually leaves much to be desired in flavor profile.  Good luck with your pizza.

 ^^^

Craig's tables (both commercial yeast and sourdough) are excellent.  And, so is the approach of a room temperature ferment.  The tables are well grounded in both experience and science and, most importantly, they work for me.  And, they work for a great many pizza makers here.  You will, no doubt, need to tune your own amounts/temperatures/times to your own starter and regimens - but they are an excellent starting point.

I rarely do cold ferments of sourdough - I get results that I am very happy with by making room temperature fermented pizzas.  Regarding convenience, they are more convenient to me to make.  I do not have to plan far in advance, I can just decide the day before that I want to make pizza. 

And, if things go astray and I need to delay the bake, I can put the dough in the fridge for a night.  Not the best way, but not the end of the world.

*********
BTW, On this forum, as in others, you can find conflicting advice.  One of the best tools at our disposal is to simply research the other posts made by contributing members, taking a look at what they do and say, look at their experience and take a look at the pizza pics they post.  You can make an assessment to decide the best guidance out there and what you choose to follow.

For example, at this point, Craig has made thousands of pizzas.  Aside from his excellent posts and experienced guidance, take a look at the many pics he has posted.  Some would say it is just a picture and the real deal comes from tasting the pizza.  For what it is worth, I have had the pleasure of eating some of his pizza and it is fantastic.  And, several others on the forum have done and said the same.

*****************

I also want to mention your idea of using a wine cooler for the room temperature ferment  Great idea.  18 degrees C (64 F) is an excellent temperature level to use.  I use a small dormitory type fridge with a high quality thermostat control.  I almost always set it for 17-18 C and ferment for 24-36 hours.  Very happy with the results.  You do have to "watch the dough" to ensure it is developing on schedule, especially the first few times as you dial it in.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 11:35:59 AM by mitchjg »
Mitch

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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Heikjo's first attempt at NY style Lehmann (12" on stone)
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2018, 03:25:04 PM »
The pies below look great

IMHO it would be better if you picked a set percent of levain when you are working with sourdough (for example: 20% is what I use) and vary the times of Cold Temp Fermentation and Room Temp fermentation until you have found a flavor that you like.

Flavor is developed during cold fermentation. You will often see "Flavor Takes Time" phase being used by those that work with sourdough. The notion that cold fermentation is only for convenience, as suggested in the thread, is wrong.

Also, IMHO, avoid the "predictive models". Create you own levain, learn how to use it and make a pizza that is exactly how you like it.
Thank you!

I haven't really looked into baking with a levain yet. My comments in the previous post was primarily towards baking with IDY. I've seen a similar prediction model for sourdough, but again, I haven't spent any time on it so far. Pretty busy refurbishing our apartment, and my starter is sitting in the fridge, probably smelling quite a lot by now.  :D

Thank you for your thoughts on CF and RT. I've been baking with SD for a few years now, and the prevailing opinion has always been that longer CF developes more flavor. I haven't come across much about RT until those threads in here. If you got any resources for it, I'd be happy to read some more, but I realize it may end up in a situation where # people say this and # people say that. I'll probably end up trying both myself to see what I can make of it. I baked a bit with RT when making SD breads earlier, but now it's mostly CF and baking straight from the fridge. If nothing else, being able to use both methods gives me more freedom to when I make the doughs.

I've peeked in your thread DS, and bookmarked it for when I start experimenting with SD pies.

I would definitely suggest Craig's prediction table.  The vast majority of us that make sourdough pizza successfully on here have that model to thank for it.  Craig has said many times that his model is just a starting point.  You will be in the ballpark for sure with the chart but some tweaking may be needed.  Long, room temp ferments are used almost exclusively in Naples.  The pizzas there, while not my thing texturally, are the best flavored I have ever eaten.  Cold fermented sourdough pizza, in my experience, usually leaves much to be desired in flavor profile.  Good luck with your pizza.
I've seen many users experience success with his models, so I will definitely use them as a starting point. As he says himself, you might always have to adjust something, but they give pretty good indications of where you want to be at. Of course, with SD, you also got the factor of the state of the starter and when you use it in the dough.

Also thanks for the comment on RT vs CF. I see that there are fans on both sides, so I'll have to try for myself. I don't have a need to copy the original methods 100%, and at this point I can't even make NP, so I'll stick to trying to make some NY-ish style with SD.

Craig's tables (both commercial yeast and sourdough) are excellent.  And, so is the approach of a room temperature ferment.  The tables are well grounded in both experience and science and, most importantly, they work for me.  And, they work for a great many pizza makers here.  You will, no doubt, need to tune your own amounts/temperatures/times to your own starter and regimens - but they are an excellent starting point.

I rarely do cold ferments of sourdough - I get results that I am very happy with by making room temperature fermented pizzas.  Regarding convenience, they are more convenient to me to make.  I do not have to plan far in advance, I can just decide the day before that I want to make pizza. 

And, if things go astray and I need to delay the bake, I can put the dough in the fridge for a night.  Not the best way, but not the end of the world.

*********
BTW, On this forum, as in others, you can find conflicting advice.  One of the best tools at our disposal is to simply research the other posts made by contributing members, taking a look at what they do and say, look at their experience and take a look at the pizza pics they post.  You can make an assessment to decide the best guidance out there and what you choose to follow.

For example, at this point, Craig has made thousands of pizzas.  Aside from his excellent posts and experienced guidance, take a look at the many pics he has posted.  Some would say it is just a picture and the real deal comes from tasting the pizza.  For what it is worth, I have had the pleasure of eating some of his pizza and it is fantastic.  And, several others on the forum have done and said the same.

*****************

I also want to mention your idea of using a wine cooler for the room temperature ferment  Great idea.  18 degrees C (64 F) is an excellent temperature level to use.  I use a small dormitory type fridge with a high quality thermostat control.  I almost always set it for 17-18 C and ferment for 24-36 hours.  Very happy with the results.  You do have to "watch the dough" to ensure it is developing on schedule, especially the first few times as you dial it in.
Thanks, Mitch! I think you're right on the different opinions, and I don't want to say that anyone is necessarily wrong. Two people may have two different experiences with RT and CF, possibly because of ingredients or methods, or just their palate. I pick up something here and something there, then preferably try different methods myself to find my own preference. I will probably be able to make good pizzas with both methods.

Good to hear that you like fermenting at 18C. My wine cooler usually has at least a spot or two available, so I can make room for some doughs. Usually keep it at 12C though, I might try that too. With the chart it's pretty easy to adjust for. Keeping the cooler at 18 means I'd have to organize my wine a bit more than usual, where I take a red wine out about half an hour before using. Will definitely be fermenting in clear bottomed containers and keep an eye on them when I try it. Not that I got much experience, but I've seen a bunch of pictures in here that is of good help.

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: Heikjo's first attempt at NY style Lehmann (12" on stone)
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2018, 05:16:55 PM »


Craig's tables (both commercial yeast and sourdough) are excellent.  And, so is the approach of a room temperature ferment.  The tables are well grounded in both experience and science and, most importantly, they work for me.  And, they work for a great many pizza makers here.  You will, no doubt, need to tune your own amounts/temperatures/times to your own starter and regimens - but they are an excellent starting point.

I rarely do cold ferments of sourdough - I get results that I am very happy with by making room temperature fermented pizzas.  Regarding convenience, they are more convenient to me to make.  I do not have to plan far in advance, I can just decide the day before that I want to make pizza. 

And, if things go astray and I need to delay the bake, I can put the dough in the fridge for a night.  Not the best way, but not the end of the world.

*********
BTW, On this forum, as in others, you can find conflicting advice.  One of the best tools at our disposal is to simply research the other posts made by contributing members, taking a look at what they do and say, look at their experience and take a look at the pizza pics they post.  You can make an assessment to decide the best guidance out there and what you choose to follow.

For example, at this point, Craig has made thousands of pizzas.  Aside from his excellent posts and experienced guidance, take a look at the many pics he has posted.  Some would say it is just a picture and the real deal comes from tasting the pizza.  For what it is worth, I have had the pleasure of eating some of his pizza and it is fantastic.  And, several others on the forum have done and said the same.

*****************


Reading this reminds me of Wonder Bread

1) Everybody loved it (in the '60s)
2) It was perfectly baked
3) They made millions and millions and millions of loaves
4) Every loaf was exactly the same
5) There was no need for any other bread made any other way.
6) Wonder Bread was was perfection

IMHO You are better off doing your own thing.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Heikjo's first attempt at NY style Lehmann (12" on stone)
« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2018, 06:18:47 PM »
DS,

I don't personally have a problem with members doing their own thing. For years I did that but it was because the forum was in its infancy with only a few members and there was little guidance to help me avoid doing my own thing. And if you look at my old posts, it is clear that I was having to figure out things pretty much on my own. With the passage of time, however, and as the forum grew larger and more popular, the body of knowledge about pizza making increased, and it became less necessary for me to wing it. I had the benefit of that new knowledge and that helped me greatly.

To cite an example, here is a thread where I did my own thing:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg62332#msg62332

That thread was before Craig came up with his yeast charts. It was even before Craig became a member of the forum. But several years later, after I had concluded my experiments in the above thread, I wondered how my numbers matched up with Craig's numbers. You can see what I found at Reply 176 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg393294;topicseen#msg393294

To cite another example, after spending years trying to reverse engineer and clone the Papa John's dough, I suggested to the more recent members that they use Craig's yeast chart, at Reply 1189 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg484516#msg484516

My suggestion in Reply 1189 was to spare members from having to reinvent the wheel. And, today, even I would use Craig's yeast chart. Of course, you are free to do your own thing but why discourage members from relying on proven data and methods and, instead, tell them to discount Mitch's advice or Craig's work and do their own thing? I don't see the logic of that. They should do their own legwork and research and be the ones to decide how to proceed from there.

Peter


Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: Heikjo's first attempt at NY style Lehmann (12" on stone)
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2018, 08:20:18 PM »
DS,

I don't personally have a problem with members doing their own thing. For years I did that but it was because the forum was in its infancy with only a few members and there was little guidance to help me avoid doing my own thing. And if you look at my old posts, it is clear that I was having to figure out things pretty much on my own. With the passage of time, however, and as the forum grew larger and more popular, the body of knowledge about pizza making increased, and it became less necessary for me to wing it. I had the benefit of that new knowledge and that helped me greatly.

To cite an example, here is a thread where I did my own thing:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg62332#msg62332

That thread was before Craig came up with his yeast charts. It was even before Craig became a member of the forum. But several years later, after I had concluded my experiments in the above thread, I wondered how my numbers matched up with Craig's numbers. You can see what I found at Reply 176 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg393294;topicseen#msg393294

To cite another example, after spending years trying to reverse engineer and clone the Papa John's dough, I suggested to the more recent members that they use Craig's yeast chart, at Reply 1189 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg484516#msg484516

My suggestion in Reply 1189 was to spare members from having to reinvent the wheel. And, today, even I would use Craig's yeast chart. Of course, you are free to do your own thing but why discourage members from relying on proven data and methods and, instead, tell them to discount Mitch's advice or Craig's work and do their own thing? I don't see the logic of that. They should do their own legwork and research and be the ones to decide how to proceed from there.

Peter

PM sent.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Heikjo's first attempt at NY style Lehmann (12" on stone)
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2018, 09:13:15 PM »
Why not discuss things in public?  ???

We're a forum here. That's what we do, no?

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49415.msg514111#msg514111
Mike

“All styles of pizza are valid. I make the best I’m capable of; you should make the best you’re capable of. I don’t want to make somebody else’s pizza.” ~ Chris Bianco

Offline csnack

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Re: Heikjo's first attempt at NY style Lehmann (12" on stone)
« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2018, 09:54:08 PM »
I'm happy to say that I'm doing my own thing and it's working out great -- now that I've had this forum for the last couple years as an invaluable resource to have made that possible for me. When I was a nube, and before this forum and all of it's guides/charts et al, "my own thing" constituted volume measurements and over-proofing and just about ZERO insight and consistency - though I've never baked up an awful gum line...

For a beginner who has stumbled upon this website, there's no point now in throwing up a rope and trying to climb it when there's a ladder here. Spending some time researching and reading old threads here about all the variables, using the charts and guides etc and putting that knowledge to use is just plain smart. That's what will allow you to eventually be off doing your own thing, but doing so with a solid background and understanding that will make that possible and successful, as opposed to grinding away on your own and just getting by without truly understanding what you're doing.

Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: Heikjo's first attempt at NY style Lehmann (12" on stone)
« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2018, 10:53:41 PM »
Regarding scientific rules in cooking or any subjective artform:


Offline Heikjo

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Re: Heikjo's first attempt at NY style Lehmann (12" on stone)
« Reply #53 on: February 03, 2018, 03:37:49 AM »
Hah, nerds! Well, if there's anyone I can call pizza nerds, it's users in here, and I mean it in a good way. I've been using The Fresh Loaf forum for bread and some other food related forums before, but when I arrived here, I was amazed at the level of detail and work put into it. From a Reddit forum where threads never get particularly long and new topics pop up constantly, you got a normal forum where the amount of yeast and how to knead a dough gets discussed at great lengths over years. Being a perfectionist myself, I've really enjoyed this forum. And I consider myself lucky arriving now, 15+ years after others did the legwork. Whatever I wonder about, I can just search the forum and find answers. Some from 2006, some from 2018. Pete is usually to find in most of them.

The way I see it, "your own thing" now is starting out with recommended recipes and amounts, and then fine tune yourself. It's impossible to make data that works for everyone, but for instance the fermentation chart has shown it's value by working for a lot of people in here. The recipes from Tom, Pete and others also works across the world. You might just have to tune them a little to your ingredients, equipment and desires.

Offline csnack

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Re: Heikjo's first attempt at NY style Lehmann (12" on stone)
« Reply #54 on: February 03, 2018, 04:23:36 AM »
Word, that's what's funny about the
Wonder Bread analogy. This place is the total antithesis of a concept like that. As it is you won't find a forum of pizza makers and ideas so far out into the weeds as this group. So "NERDS" is apt, understanding that Booger was not a nerd, but just a cool outcast who smoked.

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Offline Minolta Rokkor

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Re: Heikjo's first attempt at NY style Lehmann (12" on stone)
« Reply #55 on: February 03, 2018, 09:52:14 AM »
I'm happy to say that I'm doing my own thing and it's working out great -- now that I've had this forum for the last couple years as an invaluable resource to have made that possible for me. When I was a nube, and before this forum and all of it's guides/charts et al, "my own thing" constituted volume measurements and over-proofing and just about ZERO insight and consistency - though I've never baked up an awful gum line...

For a beginner who has stumbled upon this website, there's no point now in throwing up a rope and trying to climb it when there's a ladder here. Spending some time researching and reading old threads here about all the variables, using the charts and guides etc and putting that knowledge to use is just plain smart. That's what will allow you to eventually be off doing your own thing, but doing so with a solid background and understanding that will make that possible and successful, as opposed to grinding away on your own and just getting by without truly understanding what you're doing.
Agree, my pizza was OK to FAIR, before I came here. Then I tried doing my own thing only to end up with horrible results and crippling frustration, called it quits a few times and took a long break.. Old threads are good too, it's how I learned how to measure small amounts of yeast.

This forum has pretty much built me from the ground up.

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Heikjo's first attempt at NY style Lehmann (12" on stone)
« Reply #56 on: February 03, 2018, 04:46:52 PM »
This forum has pretty much built me from the ground up.

Same here.  When I first found the forum,  I was trying to use a pizza recipe from a somewhat gimmicky cookbook.  Sort of decent results, mediocre at best.  Then I bought a Trader Joe's dough and completely botched it.

Peter was there, giving me help on Day 1.  Straightened me out and then I stuck with the forum - continuously learning from others here and the huge foundation of prior work.

If building on the experiences and work products of others was a good approach for Sir Isaac Newton, it is good enough for me.


Mitch

“We hate math,” says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans

Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: Heikjo's first attempt at NY style Lehmann (12" on stone)
« Reply #57 on: February 03, 2018, 09:07:48 PM »
Word, that's what's funny about the
Wonder Bread analogy. This place is the total antithesis of a concept like that. As it is you won't find a forum of pizza makers and ideas so far out into the weeds as this group. So "NERDS" is apt, understanding that Booger was not a nerd, but just a cool outcast who smoked.

There is a process and workflow, but when we incorporate scientific models, Luigi from the 70's would wonder what that's all about.  Alot of pizzamakers in past didn't even graduate from highschool.

Offline csnack

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Re: Heikjo's first attempt at NY style Lehmann (12" on stone)
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2018, 12:51:37 AM »
There is a process and workflow, but when we incorporate scientific models, Luigi from the 70's would wonder what that's all about.  Alot of pizzamakers in past didn't even graduate from highschool.
That's Luigi doing things how Luigi et al did in the 70's, which I respect. No one has to be married to these models for life. The distinction to be made is between those taking up pizza making in large part as an art form, and those who just want to be able to make great pizza at home w/ as little stress, time and learning curve as possible so they don't have to pay $30+ for a 17" pepperoni (this guy). I think the latter camp is the majority - out there in the world, that is. When I first started a couple years ago I was totally in that latter camp. I'm more ambiguous now. I've developed a deep respect for pizza making as an art form and I love the old school aesthetic and vibe of it. But as a practical perfectionist who exists in this day and age I'm more about the ends I'm not gonna lie. There's a path w/ a lot less resistance today that didn't really exist in Luigi's day. This path is all but void of that old feel and vibe, but it'll get you there quicker and yeah I took it.

Offline yarbrough462

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Re: Heikjo's first attempt at NY style Lehmann (12" on stone)
« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2018, 04:53:25 AM »
There is a process and workflow, but when we incorporate scientific models, Luigi from the 70's would wonder what that's all about.  Alot of pizzamakers in past didn't even graduate from highschool.

Luigi may not have graduated HS but he surely trained under an experienced pizza maker.  That pizza maker surely understood that time and temperature are ingredients and how to tweak the dough under varying conditions.  All the models are is a mathematical expression of that.

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