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  • #1 by ThatsDrew99 on 14 Sep 2022
  • So I followed a Vito 24h proof for my first few bakes.

    I definitely noticed that the dough is not nearly as puffy as his in the video after following the same recipe.

    The dough is pretty flat after coming out of the fridge, not puffy, and it was difficult to press the dough without making it really thin and even making holes in it on the first few I did. Im assuming this means it's not fermenting properly? Maybe it also has to do with the trapping of air during the kneading/rolling.

    Today i made some pizzas from dough that I had left over from yesterday and there was basically no rise to the crust, no air to the dough. When I tried to push the dough out to the crust and create a raised edge there was hardly any distinction from the rest of the pizza. Does this sound like the yeast was no good? I followed the Polish recipe below and let it sit out for two hours before putting it in the fridge. then when I took it out I let it warm up to room temp for an hour before working with it.

    I used Dry yeast and did a 24h proof.

    Im wondering if a 48 proof might help this. or maybe using fresh yeast? Im also wondering what role the honey plays in the fermentation and if it is necessary or contributes to this problem.

    the recipe/proof was as follows:

    Poolish: 300ml water, 300g 00 four, 5g dry yeast, 5g honey

    left in fridge 24h then added

    700ml water, 40g sea salt, 1250g flour

    let dough sit for 2 hours at room temp

    It was then cooked on a pizza stone at 525 F. I realize that its hard to get the results you want from a home oven, but the dough even before being cooked did not have as much air, which is my concern here. The recipe is for 10 dough balls. Some were baked that day and some were baked the next day. The ones which baked the day after the original time of use had very little rise, significantly less than the ones that I used the day before.

    Im learning about the science of dough/fermentation now which should help me understand what is going on in the dough, but wondering what could have gone wrong here.
  • #2 by foreplease on 14 Sep 2022
  • It seems to me nothing was gained by refrigerating your poolish with its 1.6% yeast, later 0.32% for the full batch. You donít have enough time at seemingly room temperature. I say seemingly because after 1 hour out of the fridge, after 24 in, your poolish was surely much colder than the typical room temperature.


    I know you are trying to turn out good pizza with the info in this video, which I have not watched. Evidently, it is not working. I think you can use the same ingredients, timed differently and turn out a good pizza that may well resemble the one in the video.


    Consider these changes, all of them and no extra ones, once:
    Use 1.5 g IDY in the poolish
    Do not add honey to the poolish
    Do not refrigerate it at all
    Plan to begin your final dough, incorporating the poolish about 8 hours after you made it
    Add 3.5 g IDY to the 700 ml (aka g), plus the 5 g honey if you want to use it
    Add your 40 g salt and stir the poolish into the rest of the dough liquids
    Add your 1,250 g flour in about 3 portions while mixer runs
    After the last addition of flour and after the dough has come together, mix/knead for 5-6 minutes
    Divide into balls. At 10 balls for this batch your ball size is rather small I would start by making 5 balls instead of 10. If you only plan to bake 2, or 3, put the others in the fridge at this point until 3-4 hours before you want to use them
    Cover with an upside down empty bowl and leave on the counter, untouched) for about 4 hours
    Make pizzas


    Giving you 15 minutes to make, mix, and ball the dough, you need to start the poolish about 12 1/2 hours before you want to put the first pizza in the oven. Good luck.
  • #3 by ThatsDrew99 on 14 Sep 2022
  • It seems to me nothing was gained by refrigerating your poolish with its 1.6% yeast, later 0.32% for the full batch. You donít have enough time at seemingly room temperature. I say seemingly because after 1 hour out of the fridge, after 24 in, your poolish was surely much colder than the typical room temperature.


    I know you are trying to turn out good pizza with the info in this video, which I have not watched. Evidently, it is not working. I think you can use the same ingredients, timed differently and turn out a good pizza that may well resemble the one in the video.

    Consider these changes, all of them and no extra ones, once:

    Do not refrigerate it at all

    Divide into balls. At 10 balls for this batch your ball size is rather small I would start by making 5 balls instead of 10. If you only plan to bake 2, or 3, put the others in the fridge at this point until 3-4 hours before you want to use them
    Cover with an upside down empty bowl and leave on the counter, untouched) for about 4 hours
    Make pizzas


    Giving you 15 minutes to make, mix, and ball the dough, you need to start the poolish about 12 1/2 hours before you want to put the first pizza in the oven. Good luck.

    well If I made 5 balls they would be huge...this recipe is supposed to make 10 balls at about 250g each.

    Also most recipes I have seen recommend a 24h refrigeration time. Why are you suggesting to not refrigerate the dough at all? Its important that I understand how these changes you are suggesting would actually affect the dough/outcome.

     I need to do more research on the science behind dough/fermenttion to make sense of it.



    here is the video

  • #4 by ThatsDrew99 on 14 Sep 2022
  • One other thing I noticed was that since I had my poolish on the highest shelf in the refrigerator, really close to the roof, it was starting to freeze around the edges in a couple parts. At the time I didnt realize it would affect anything so I just mashed it up and mixed it with the rest of the dough.

    I now know this probably slowed down the fermentation too much with it getting too cold, and maybe on top of that I didnt leave it out long enough before working it in combination with that.

    Is there a particular ideal temperature to have the poolish at while its in the refrigerator?
  • #5 by foreplease on 14 Sep 2022
  • well If I made 5 balls they would be huge...this recipe is supposed to make 10 balls at about 250g each.

    Also most recipes I have seen recommend a 24h refrigeration time. Why are you suggesting to not refrigerate the dough at all? Its important that I understand how these changes you are suggesting would actually affect the dough/outcome.

     I need to do more research on the science behind dough/fermenttion to make sense of it.

    Fair enough on dough ball weight. I am suggesting to not refrigerate at all because you said refrigerating poolish and dough did not work. I know you would like to use the formula from the video so I kept those ingredient amounts and re-worked when they could be added and what temperatures along the way to give you a better chance of making a pizza you seem to want to make. 2 hours room temp ferment with 0.32% IDY is going to get results like you had. I made one today: no poolish, finished mixing and kneading at 8:20 am, I used 58% water, 0.35% IDY, and it fermented on the counter in our kitchen until 5:45 pm - approximately 9 hours. It rose and baked beautifully. It was a thicker pizza than what you want to make. It will be over in the Todayís Pizza thread if you care to see it.


    Thanks for re-posting the video link. I donít have any reason to watch it. Youíve said it doesnít work; I believe you and, after looking over the formula and work flow, I have no trouble imagining that it would not work well.
  • #6 by ThatsDrew99 on 14 Sep 2022
  • Fair enough on dough ball weight. I am suggesting to not refrigerate at all because you said refrigerating poolish and dough did not work. I know you would like to use the formula from the video so I kept those ingredient amounts and re-worked when they could be added and what temperatures along the way to give you a better chance of making a pizza you seem to want to make. 2 hours room temp ferment with 0.32% IDY is going to get results like you had. I made one today: no poolish, finished mixing and kneading at 8:20 am, I used 58% water, 0.35% IDY, and it fermented on the counter in our kitchen until 5:45 pm - approximately 9 hours. It rose and baked beautifully. It was a thicker pizza than what you want to make. It will be over in the Todayís Pizza thread if you care to see it.


    Thanks for re-posting the video link. I donít have any reason to watch it. Youíve said it doesnít work; I believe you and, after looking over the formula and work flow, I have no trouble imagining that it would not work well.

    well, I dont imagine that just because it didnt work correctly doesnt mean it shouldnt ever be refrigerated, nor am I suggesting that good results couldn't be obtained another way. Im sure they can. Im still learning.

    I imagine it is probably not working well because it was my first batch of dough ive ever made. Im not suggesting that the recipe which produced a really good pizza in the video is wrong and doesnt work. I dont think thats true because I can see that it does work well by watching it being made...so im doing something wrong and im trying to figure out what it is.

    thanks for the advice.
  • #7 by Jersey Pie Boy on 15 Sep 2022
  • Hi...Tony is putting you on the right track. For now, make your poolish...give it plenty of room temp time until it's very active and bubbles are popping.if your poolish froze, it may have very well done nothing for your dough at all. Make your dough as suggested. Would like to see how it works for you this way, then add  fridge next time
  • #8 by PizzaPassion on 18 Sep 2022
  • Fair enough on dough ball weight. I am suggesting to not refrigerate at all because you said refrigerating poolish and dough did not work. I know you would like to use the formula from the video so I kept those ingredient amounts and re-worked when they could be added and what temperatures along the way to give you a better chance of making a pizza you seem to want to make. 2 hours room temp ferment with 0.32% IDY is going to get results like you had. I made one today: no poolish, finished mixing and kneading at 8:20 am, I used 58% water, 0.35% IDY, and it fermented on the counter in our kitchen until 5:45 pm - approximately 9 hours. It rose and baked beautifully. It was a thicker pizza than what you want to make. It will be over in the Todayís Pizza thread if you care to see it.


    Thanks for re-posting the video link. I donít have any reason to watch it. Youíve said it doesnít work; I believe you and, after looking over the formula and work flow, I have no trouble imagining that it would not work well.
    I would like to see it but can't locate the thread. If you or someone else could provide a link I'd appreciate that.
  • #9 by foreplease on 18 Sep 2022
  • I would like to see it but can't locate the thread. If you or someone else could provide a link I'd appreciate that.
    I think this is what you are asking about. I have not seen it. ThatsDrew99 originally posted it and said he had poor results following the video instructions.
  • #10 by ThatsDrew99 on 18 Sep 2022


  • Consider these changes, all of them and no extra ones, once:
    Use 1.5 g IDY in the poolish
    Do not add honey to the poolish
    Do not refrigerate it at all
    Plan to begin your final dough, incorporating the poolish about 8 hours after you made it
    Add 3.5 g IDY to the 700 ml (aka g), plus the 5 g honey if you want to use it
    Add your 40 g salt and stir the poolish into the rest of the dough liquids
    Add your 1,250 g flour in about 3 portions while mixer runs
    After the last addition of flour and after the dough has come together, mix/knead for 5-6 minutes
    Divide into balls. At 10 balls for this batch your ball size is rather small I would start by making 5 balls instead of 10. If you only plan to bake 2, or 3, put the others in the fridge at this point until 3-4 hours before you want to use them
    Cover with an upside down empty bowl and leave on the counter, untouched) for about 4 hours
    Make pizzas


    Giving you 15 minutes to make, mix, and ball the dough, you need to start the poolish about 12 1/2 hours before you want to put the first pizza in the oven. Good luck.

    Thanks.

    So I will make these changes and see how it turns out. Ill make it tomorrow evening and try it on Tuesday.

    I went and got some IDY instead of the ADY I was using. I also have some fresh as well but ill try it with the SAF red.

    What is the advantage of adding the yeast in two parts? 1.5g in the poolish and 3.5g with the rest of the dough? Just want to understand the reasoning because i'm not sure its something i've seen/heard before.
  • #11 by foreplease on 18 Sep 2022
  • I think they are more opinion than known advantages. I donít understand the subtle differences entirely myself. I just posted about this in another thread. Of the 3 methods I listed, I started out using the second one because the math was easier for me and I thought there was a smaller chance that I would screw up the water:flour ratio, having made the same dough without a poolish previously.


    Good luck with your next batch. I hope you will be encouraged with the results.
    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=76459.msg723021#msg723021
  • #12 by BGPizza on 20 Sep 2022
  • I actually made that exact poolish from the video with ADY. It was RT for 1 hour then in the fridge till the next night, about 21 hours. It was so active it expanded right over the top of the container and into my fridge. I did make 1 change. I used 5g sugar instead of honey. I honestly think you had bad yeast. Or like one of the other responders mentioned, your fridge may be too cold. 🤔
  • #13 by PizzaPassion on 20 Sep 2022
  • "It rose and baked beautifully. It was a thicker pizza than what you want to make. It will be over in the Todayís Pizza thread if you care to see it."
    What is was looking for was Foreplease said the pizza he made would be in Today's Pizza thread. I don't know where to find that thread.
  • #14 by foreplease on 20 Sep 2022
  • "It rose and baked beautifully. It was a thicker pizza than what you want to make. It will be over in the Todayís Pizza thread if you care to see it."
    What is was looking for was Foreplease said the pizza he made would be in Today's Pizza thread. I don't know where to find that thread.
    This is the particular post in a very long and popular thread. Take a look around that thread at some of the great thing people are turning out and posting there. Mine are childís play compared to many.
    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg722786#msg722786
  • #15 by PizzaPassion on 22 Sep 2022
  • This is the particular post in a very long and popular thread. Take a look around that thread at some of the great thing people are turning out and posting there. Mine are childís play compared to many.
    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg722786#msg722786
    Thanks Tony that is what I was looking for. Actually a pretty simple recipe but I'm not sure what BF is.
    And the grandchild pizza chefs are adorable. Great idea.
  • #16 by foreplease on 22 Sep 2022
  • Thanks Tony that is what I was looking for. Actually a pretty simple recipe but I'm not sure what BF is.
    And the grandchild pizza chefs are adorable. Great idea.
    Thank you. BF is bread flour. I use Gold Medal unbleached but I donít think it matters much.
  • #17 by kadnos on 22 Sep 2022
  • I think you should try the changes Tony suggested, may it just for you to get some experience with different doughs and get a feeling for the textures of the dough.

    The recipe from the video works just fine, i've used it many times. There may be some steps you've skipped, bad yeast, too low temperature, etc.
    Maybe the overall 3 hours at room temperature were too much for the poolish and the "freezing" in the fridge killed it completely, but that's just a wild guess.
     

    To break down the recipe from the video:

    1. Poolish -> 300g Flour, 300g Water, 5g IDY (or about 15g fresh yeast), 5g Honey -> mix it -> let it rest at room temperature for 1 hour (if it's hot maybe a little less / it will double/triple in size, so use a large enough bowl). The lid stays on -> put it in the fridge for at least overnight / max 24 h.
    2. Dough -> Mix the (cold) poolish with the rest of the ingredients, i usually dissolve the salt in the water, add the poolish and then mix the flour in (not all at once, more like 1/3). You can do that by hand or with a stand mixer, which will be easier and less messy (but you won't get the experience how a dough will change while mixing) -> make sure all the flour is incorporated and roughly mix it, there should be no lumps of flour.
    2.1. Leave the (not very smooth looking dough) to rest for ~10-20 minutes (covered) at room temperature -> after that do some coil folds to make it smooth (Vito uses olive oil on his hands to make the handling easier "tap tap tap"); you can also do stretch + folds or any other folding/shaping method, it does't really matter as long as you get some smooth somewhat ball-shaped dough out of it that has some surface tension -> leave it covered to rest for 1 hour at room temperature.
    3 Make the dough balls (again Vito uses olive oil to make the handling easier); Again, surface tension is key! -> use a dough tray, boxes/bowls for individual balls, a baking tray, a counter - it doesn't matter as long as the balls are completely covered. They will expand, plan for it.
    3.1 The balls have to rest for 2-3 hours at room temperature before you can use them.


    In my opinion there are 2 make-or-break topics:

    - shaping the dough/balls
    - getting the balls out of the tray and stretching the pizza without tearing or degassing it

    I highly recommend watching videos on those topics if you're not sure you're doing it right.
    I would also highly recommend tuning down the recipe for fewer pizzas, it would make the handling much easier and you will get more experience with different stages of the dough. If you want to be true to Vitos recipe stay in the 67-70% hydration range.


    Good luck and have fun experimenting :-)
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