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Offline strazza

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Questions about general dough processing and hydration
« on: September 14, 2021, 09:25:06 AM »
Hello :pizza: People,

I had a frustrating experience making dough yesterday and need to get some questions off my chest. Maybe someone can help me....

I have been using Caputo Rosso flour (Tipo 00, 13% protein, W300/320) for a long time. Then yesterday I tried Molino Pasini Verde (Tipo 00, 11.9% protein, W280/310) - and nothing worked at all.

I selected hydration of 65% and the dough collapsed and stuck to the bottom of my kitchen mashine. This never happened to me with Caputo flour. Why? Did I overknead the dough perhaps?

How long do I have to knead the dough in the kitchen mashine so that it is not sticky and builds a good gluten structure? How do I determine the ideal amount of water (%) for a particular flour based on protein content or W value? (is there a formula?)

I then kneaded the Pasini Verde flour with 58% water content and it worked, but I have the impression that the dough is also over kneaded.

Can anyone help me?

Thank you and best regards from Germany!
Andreas

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Bosch OptiMUM, Caputo Cuoco + Pasini Verde

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Questions about general dough processing and hydration
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2021, 01:59:30 PM »
Andreas,

I think it will help a lot to see your recipe, in detail, and for you to explain how you made the dough from start to finish (when you opened a dough ball to make pizza).

Peter

Offline strazza

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Re: Questions about general dough processing and hydration
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2021, 04:35:15 AM »
Hi Peter,

thank you for your answer. I will try to explain. My recipe:

100% Molino Pasini Verde flour (Tipo 00, 11.9% protein, W280/310).
65% water
3% salt
0.1% IDY

I put the flour and yeast in the mixing bowl. Then I poured about 80% of the water and started kneading slowly (for about 5 minutes). After the dough formed, step by step I added the remaining water in small splashes and continued kneading for about 15 minutes. At the end I added the salt. I did a "window test" but the dough was sticky, lumpy and cracked. I also felt that the dough was quite warm (maybe kneaded too long?).

I then left the dough to mature overnight in the refrigerator (approx. 6 C/42,8 F). This helped it stabilize a bit again. The next day then I let rise again for 6 hours at room temperature. I could bake pizza with it, but the dough was not really elastic and stretchy.

Thanks for some tips.

Best regards
Andreas
Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Bosch OptiMUM, Caputo Cuoco + Pasini Verde

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Questions about general dough processing and hydration
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2021, 01:04:58 PM »
Andreas,

I actually have several thoughts and comments but I will start with the mixing and kneading steps. As to this point, you should not knead the dough to the point of passing the window pane test. The late Tom Lehmann talked about this matter many times over the years. Here are a couple of his posts on the window pane test and why it should not be used, along with a few other tips for making and handling the dough (including finished dough temperature):

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=61817.msg615652;topicseen#msg615652

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=60486.msg606167;topicseen#msg606167

You might also find it helpful to look at one of Tom's videos where he shows how a kneaded dough should properly look and handle. More specifically, it is the middle video in the thread at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=60152.msg603158#msg603158

My second thought has to do with the rest time you used before using the dough to make a pizza. You indicated a time but not the room temperature. Ideally, you want to use the dough when its internal temperature (as measured by a stick or similar thermometer) is around 50-55F/10-13C. However, my personal preference has been to use an internal dough temperature of around 60F/16C. And it usually only takes a couple of hours for the dough to temper at my room temperature before using.

I also note that you used a 00 flour and a hydration value of 65%. There are many people who can use such a hydration value for 00 flours but the rated absorption value for many 00 flours is only in the high 50s percents. If you decide to follow Tom's advice on making and kneading your next dough and you also shorten the rest period but still do not get the desired results, you may want to reduce the hydration value that you have been using with the 00 flour. You can do that in steps if needed, starting with a hydration value of around 60%. You will also want to use the proper internal temperature of the dough as it rests before using.

My final thought has to do with the amount of yeast (IDY) you used. Without knowing more about all of the temperatures you used, I cannot say if you used the proper amount of IDY. So, you might want to take a look at the tool cited below that may allow you to determine the proper amount of yeast to use when you are using your refrigerator at its temperature, along with the duration of the resting of the dough before using and your particular room temperature. In your case, there would be two fermentation periods, one in the refrigerator and the second one for the resting period of your dough before using.

http://www.shadergraphics.com/

Whatever you decide to do, I hope you will let us know what you decide to do and the results you achieve. If you can post photos that may also help.

Peter

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Questions about general dough processing and hydration
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2021, 01:39:32 PM »
My 2 cents based on the data sheet: https://www.molinopasini.com/shop/file/catalogo/129/00_VERDE.pdf

Based on the W value this looks to have a strength somewhere inbetween the Caputo saccorosso (chef/cuoco) and the pizzeria, the P/L indicates that it's similar to the Caputo flours and ought to be good for Napoletana, while the Brabender test indicates that it wants 2% less water than the saccorosso just like the pizzeria flour.  So based on the specifications given above it ought to be similar to the saccorosso, just that you'd need 2% less water than with the saccorosso.

I've also learnt in Italy that you want the minimum kneading for pizza dough, and just like Peter says you don't want to knead to the point that it passes the window pane test (that's really for bread).  IMO just knead it until it becomes a dough, that is to say it's cohesive and has passed from being sticky to being tacky.  That's the famous punto di pasta and something we all have to learn to recognize.

I'd try with the Italian method, start with the water, then salt, yeast and finally start adding the flour little by little, what the Italians call "a pioggia" (like rain).  Once you feel that it has taken shape and the outside has developed a skin and become tacky instead of sticky, you're done.  Put it to bulk ferment even if it's a bit raggy looking, it will make smooth balls anyways, as the gluten will continue to develop during the bulk period.

Of course there could also be something wrong with the flour, it really ought to have behaved similarly to the saccorosso you've been using before..
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Questions about general dough processing and hydration
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2021, 01:53:13 PM »
I looked again at your original post, if you are using a kitchen aid or similar to make the dough, I'd recommend that you finish kneading the dough on the bench.  In these mixers the dough tends to form a ball around the hook and then just get beat against the sides of the bowl.  I'm not convinced that this is good for a pizza dough, though still if all you changed was the flour, then this is unlikely to be the issue...
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

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