• #21 by Pete-zza on 09 Dec 2005
  • Teresa,

    Welcome back and nice job with the pizzas. I am looking forward to trying Dave's recipe myself.

    One of the nice things about the dough for a 16-inch is that it just right for making two 12-inch pizzas. That way, you can make them both different.

    You didn't indicate how you liked the pizzas. Can you comment on your observations and reactions to the pizzas, in terms of texture, crust flavor, crumb, etc.? I speculated that the crust would be thicker than the Lehmann crust, and looking at your photo that seems to be the case.

    FWIW, you might want to read the following thread if you are interested in trying to find a source of the KASL in NC:,1907.0.html. Since you were last at the site we have been locating sources of the flour for many of our members around the country who don't mind buying 50-lb. bags of the flour. In many instances, the price per pound drops precipitously from what KA charges for shipping from Vermont.

  • #22 by pyegal on 09 Dec 2005
  • Hi Peter!

    Since I only cut a couple of very thin samples for myself from these two pizzas today, I don't have too much for a basis of comparison. The crust tasted fine to me, but I was more concerned that my sauce was watery. I used baby bella mushrooms which I've discovered I like better than the white button fresh mushrooms.

    I did try something else new: I put my oven tiles on the top oven rack so the pizza cooked in the upper third
    of the 500 degree oven. I thought it might cook faster or get browner on the crust rim, but I can't say that I
    noticed too much difference.

    The main change in my technique was the pre or par-baking of the crust which really helps the transfer from
    peel to oven tiles so much easier. I did have a large bubble on the pepperoni crust that kept trying to inflate, so
    I pricked it with a knife.

    I actually think I prefer the texture of the Lehmann crust. I remember more of a crispness as you first bite into
    the crust with that recipe. After reading another post, I was reminded of how I liked the ease and quickness when making the crust in a food processor, so I'm planning to make another pizza this weekend.

    My crusts today had only a 24 hour rest in the fridge which wasn't very long by Canadave's standards. I should try the recipe again some time and give it a longer stay in the fridge.

    This crust recipe was very easy to work with, used all the 3 3/4 cup flour, needed very little extra flour as the dough was not overly sticky. Mixed it in my Kitchen Aid mixer, kneaded briefly by hand, then into greased (spray) zip bags and into the fridge. Easy to form the skin also.

    Given the various recipes I've tried from the posts here on this forum, I must report that all have tasted fine. But my preference is still the Lehmann with or without using a bit of my sourdough starter.

    I will admit to recently making an impromptu "calzone" when a pizza flopped off the peel and onto the tiles in a heap! Ha! So I just folded that sucker over to make a half-moon "pizza" otherwise known as a calzone!

    Now, onward and upward to make my crusts thinner and larger! and find a sauce recipe that survives freezing in better shape! Thanks for your encouragement, Peter.


  • #23 by canadave on 11 Dec 2005
  • Teresa,

    Thanks for being brave enough to try my recipe :)

    I think the relatively short rise of only 24 hours, combined with the lack of autolyse, probably made a rather significant difference in the crust I'm afraid, and may explain your observations.

    I also highly, highly encourage you to attempt the 16-inch pizza ;)  Don't let the stretching procedure scare you off--I think it's well-explained in my documentation (if I do say so myself), and besides, if a klutz like myself can accomplish it, believe me, you can too :)  Plus, it's not all that much harder than stretching for a 12-inch pizza.

  • #24 by Wallman on 11 Dec 2005
  • Dave,
    I tried your recipe this weekend. It worked out pretty well. I made the dough Thursday night and made the pizzas about 1:30 PM on Saturday. I found that the dough was pretty wet, I had to add a some KASL flour turning the mixing stage -- probably a 1/4 cup.  This could be due to a fairly inaccurate scale (just a cheap diet scale -- I'm hoping for better one for X-mas!)  The dough did taste very good. I rose a bit more than Pete's Tom L. dough and there was nice crumb. Unfortunately, I didn't take any pictures. The pizza was very good cold, I've eaten it for the last four meals!  Thanks for the good instructions and tips!
  • #25 by canadave on 12 Dec 2005
  • Wallman,

    You're welcome...glad the instructions were helpful and not an obstacle.

    When you say you had to add about 1/4 cup of KASL during the mixing stage, do you mean more than the normal amount of flour one might expect to be added?  I'm just a little confused as to what you mean here, because the instructions call for only 2/3 of the 2 lbs. of flour to be used right off the bat....then, during mixing, the rest of the flour is added (and might very well add up to about 1/4 cup).  If you're saying you did that, and then found you had to add another 1/4 cup, that's strange...the proportions have worked dead on for me :)

    You mention a 48-hour rise.  That probably works better than Teresa's 24-hour rise, but I cannot overemphasize the taste difference that I think you'll all experience if you let the dough rise for AT LEAST four days.  I find 4-6 days as being the optimum rise time.

    You liked the cold pizza eh? :)  I do too.  I reheated some of mine the last time, and it was just about as heavenly as it gets--liked it much better than right out of the oven.  Every good pizza I ever had in NYC was the same way, so I'm happy with that, as you might imagine.


  • #26 by Wallman on 12 Dec 2005
  • Dave,
    I added the extra flour at the end, I guess I should have said kneeding rather than mixing.  The dough was still sticky until I added a more flour.  Still it was easy to work with after rising in the fridge.
  • #27 by canadave on 12 Dec 2005
  • Hmmmm....I'm still a little confused about where you're saying the extra 1/4 cup is coming into play.  if you're talking about the stage of the instructions right after the 20-minute autolyse, where you're to "mix on low speed for about 10 minutes, gradually adding flour until the dough is no longer wet and sticky," then about 1/4 cup or so (gradually added in) sounds about right--remember, you start out with only 2/3 of the flour to begin with, and this stage is where the rest is added.  Or are you saying that you're adding in the rest of the flour during that 10 minutes, but then afterward find you need to add an ADDITIONAL 1/4 cup of flour?
  • #28 by Pete-zza on 12 Dec 2005
  • I have one of Canadave's NY style doughs in the works and the ratio of flour and water, which I weighed on my digital scale (Soehnle Futura), was just about perfect. I took some photos of the dough making process to use for instructional purposes for one of our new members who is attempting a Lehmann NY style dough, and those photos appear starting at Reply #9 at,2223.msg19565.html#msg19565. As can be seen in the last pair of photos, the dough is quite normal looking, without signs of wetness. When I checked the dough this morning, I saw that the dough was pushing up against the lid of the metal container I used--so much so that I decided to move it to a larger container. Since the finished dough temperature was just under 70 degrees F (I had used tap water at 65.5 degrees F), and my refrigerator compartment was at 43 degrees F, this came somewhat as a surprise. I think the answer lies in the fact that Dave's recipe calls for about three times the amount, by baker's percent, of yeast than the basic Lehmann recipe, and, in addition, Dave's recipe calls for sugar, whereas sugar is optional in the Lehmann recipe. Maybe the use of autolyse, which is not used in the Lehmann case, is also a factor. This is why I love playing around with new recipes. I always learn something. 

  • #29 by canadave on 12 Dec 2005
  • Peter,

    I'm happy to hear your dough is faring nicely so far, and that you're running into surprises ("educational opportunities"?) as you go :)  As Earl Weaver once famously said, "It's what you learn after you know it all that counts."  Truer words were never said.

    I assume you'll let the dough sit in the fridge for 4-6 days?


  • #30 by Pete-zza on 12 Dec 2005
  • Dave,

    I recently mentioned to a friend that I keep a pizza "to do" list. And because I keep adding new pizzas to make as old ones leave the list, the list never seems to get shorter. For me, a new pizza doesn't go on the list unless I think I will learn something new or useful from making it. An "educational opportunity" as you call it. Because of the seemingly endless "educational opportunities" in making pizzas, especially if you hang around this forum and pick up ideas as I do, I don't often repeat recipes exactly, even the Lehmann doughs of which I have made quite a few. There is always a spin or twist that captures my interest and curiosity. How else would someone end up baking a pizza on a bed of rocks?

    As for the dough using your recipe, I'm shooting for 4-6 days. Even there I will learn something because I almost never let a dough go for 4-6 days. While I wait, I speculate as to what I think I will get when the time arrives.

  • #31 by Wallman on 12 Dec 2005
  • Dave,
    Sorry about my lack of clarity. I am saying I added an additional 1/4 c. of flour (approximately) after adding the rest (final 1/3) of the flour during the 10 minute kneeding on low.  The dough was pretty sticky after adding the final 1/3 of the flour, so I just kept adding flour until it seemed smooth and not too stickly.  I'm guessing I used a TOTAL of about 2 lbs and 1/4 c. flour (sorry about mixing weights and volumes!).

    Like Pete I noticed the dough did rise more than the Tom L. recipe in my fridge.
  • #32 by canadave on 12 Dec 2005
  • Wow, Wallman....thanks for clearing that up, although I'm not sure why your attempt required an additional 1/4 cup.  Anyway, hope you'll try the recipe again with a longer rise time...I think you'll like it.
  • #33 by canadave on 17 Dec 2005
  • Just occurred to me to mention this for the benefits of any newbies who might stumble across this recipe; instead of putting it in a separate thread, figured I'd just tack it on here:

    As with almost any dough or pizza recipe, your final perception of the taste (which of course is the ultimate arbiter) will be HIGHLY influenced by the other ingredients you put on.  I cannot overemphasize this enough.

    For instance, I've made several instances of my dough and put on some cheapo no-name supermarket sauce and mozza cheese because I had no time to go get anything else and was caught unprepared (a lesson I've since learned from).  The final overall taste was FAR inferior to the taste I got when I used the exact same dough with some good sauce and cheese.  Not even close.

    The lesson here is that a pizza is like a car.  You could have a Porsche chassis on your car, but if it has a Ford Pinto's engine, tires, interior, performance, and penchant for spontaneously bursting into flames, overall you're not going to be very happy with the results.  You need a good *overall system*--crust, cheese, sauce, toppings, baking procedure, prep procedure, tools, etc--to achieve the most optimum results.

  • #34 by Pete-zza on 17 Dec 2005
  • Last night, I finally got to make a pizza using Canadave’s recipe for his NY style dough. I say “finally” because I followed his advice and let the dough cold ferment for a bit over 5 days. That’s about 3-4 days longer than I normally go.

    I made the dough as exactly as I could in accordance with Dave’s instructions. Where I departed from his instructions was principally in using a pizza screen in conjunction with my pizza stone instead of baking the pizza directly on the pizza stone (or tiles) alone. I used the pizza screen only because my pizza stone will not accommodate a 16-inch pizza. I also wanted to use the screen to be able to make a more direct comparison with other 16-inch NY style pizzas I have made using the same screen. Another small change I made was to use a different sauce, on which I will have more to say below.

    The dough was very easy to make and I had no problems with it whatsoever. This pleased me since it confirmed that the baker’s percents I calculated appear to be accurate enough to rely upon, particularly if one is using a decent scale. The dough did rise faster than the Lehmann NY style doughs I make, and a few large bubbles formed in the dough after about a day of rising (to see them, go to Reply #3 at,2238.msg19652.html#msg19652), but after I poked them with the tip of a sharp knife the dough settled down and remained fairly constant until I was ready to work with it.

    I removed the dough from the refrigerator after 5 days and set it (covered with plastic wrap) on my countertop to warm up. Since the dough, my refrigerator, and my kitchen were all on the cool side, it took about 4 hours for the dough to reach 60 degrees F, the temperature I generally use before handling and shaping the dough. It had occurred to me to use my proofing box to speed up the process but I wanted to stay true to Dave’s instructions and not introduce a new element into the exercise. After the dough had reached 60 degrees F, I shaped and stretched it into a 16-inch skin. The dough was extremely extensible but that posed no problem since I have had ample experience with extensible, high-hydration doughs after all the Lehmann doughs I have made. I actually believe that Dave is accurate when he says that the dough can be kept for more than 6 days. It will be extensible but still usable and not overfermented. It’s hard to say that about many doughs.

    The dough was dressed in a conventional pepperoni style. For the cheeses, I used a combination of shredded mozzarella and provolone cheeses. For the sauce, I chose to use fellow member Les’ grape tomato pizza sauce as described at,1931.0.html, which I hope our members and guests will read to see an example of the artisanship and passion that Les applies in his quest to make the perfect dough, sauce and pizza. It’s a high production value thread.

    The pizza was baked on the screen on the top oven rack for about 5 minutes, followed by about 2 to 3 minutes on my pizza stone which had been preheated for about one hour at around 500-550 degrees F. I then moved the pizza back onto the top oven rack to let the top crust brown a bit more under the heat of the broiler element, which I had turned on just as I moved the pizza onto the pizza stone. I would estimate that the total bake time was around 8 or 9 minutes. This is a bit longer than the bake times I usually use with a 16-inch Lehmann NY style pizza but the dough for the Lehmann pizza weighs about 20% less than the Canadave dough for the 16-inch.

    The photos below show the finished product. The pizza turned out exceptionally well, one of the best NY styles that I have made, including a few from some well known and highly regarded pizza cookbooks. The crust was both soft and chewy and it had a nice open and airy crumb and good flavor. And Les’ grape tomato pizza sauce was a perfect accompaniment. What impressed me most about the sauce is that only a small amount went a long way. I only needed a thin coating. I believe this was possible because of the richness of the sauce and the intensity of the flavor that comes from using the ground anise, Les’ “secret” ingredient. It takes a bit of labor to make Les’ sauce, but if you do as he does and make a large batch and freeze it, in small containers, as I did also, then it is available for use whenever needed. I think it is worth the effort. Both Dave’s and Les’ recipes will go into my “favorites” file. They are both first rate.

    For those who wish to try Dave’s dough recipe and would like either downsizing or upsizing the formulation I posted earlier to make a larger or smaller size pizza I’d be happy to assist. I can also modify the quantities of ingredients for those who prefer a thinner or thicker crust. For example, for a Lehmann NY style crust I usually use a thickness factor of 0.10-0.105. I calculated a thickness factor of over 0.13 for Dave’s formulation. I personally plan at some time to make a thinner version of Dave’s dough recipe to be able to make a more meaningful comparison to the thinner versions I now make. But I can already tell that the results will be very good.

  • #35 by Pete-zza on 17 Dec 2005
  • And for a typical slice...

  • #36 by pizzapal on 18 Dec 2005
  • That is great looking pizza!  I noticed that this recipe (and others) call for adding the oil after the dough ball has formed.  I've also read recipes that recommend adding the oil to the water/yeast mixture before the flour (which seems much easier).  Can anyone comment on the pros or cons to these different approaches?
  • #37 by Pete-zza on 18 Dec 2005
  • pizzapal,

    Thanks for the compliment. It's really an easy pizza to make.

    As to your question on the oil, you already have the "pro" part. It is a lot easier to just mix the oil with the water, yeast, etc. And you aren't as likely to forget it. The "con" part is that if you add the oil before the water, the flour will start to absorb part of the oil and act as a barrier to absorption of the water by the flour. The objective is to get the flour to absorb as much water as possible, and the oil hinders that. At least that's the theory behind it. Of course, you have to remember to add the oil. Also, adding the oil prolongs the knead time by about a minute or two usually, which some may consider a "con".

    I personally first became aware of adding the oil after the water from reading the writings of Tom Lehmann, a pizza dough expert at the American Institute of Baking, who routinely recommends that approach to pizza operators.

  • #38 by pizzapal on 18 Dec 2005
  • Pete-zza,

    Many thanks for explaining the factors regarding oil incorporation.  I would prefer not to use any oil but with a 500 degree oven it is necessary.  In the past I've always had a hard time getting all the oil absorbed when adding it last.  I will give it another try since I have a new mixer (DLX).  Thanks to Canadave for his recipe and to the forum members who share their pizza passion.   
  • #39 by Danes Dad on 01 Jan 2005
  • Canadave - Great recipe!

    I made a 16" pepperoni/olive using your recipe.  I know it wasn't a true NY as it wasn't just cheese, but I followed everything else.  You can see pictures of the pie at this link:,2280.20.html

    I hand kneaded my dough for 13minutes on a marble slab.  Everything turned out well.  Peter is also doing your recipe by hand kneading so it will be interesting to see his photos.

    The only thing i'll change next time is about 1 minute less under the broiler heat.  Actually two things, i'll also try to keep it in the fridge for atleast 48hrs.

    Danes Dad
  • #40 by Pete-zza on 04 Jan 2006
  • While visiting a friend in Massachusetts over the holidays, I offered to make a “thin” pizza based on Canadave’s NY style dough. The formulation I ended up with, for a 16-inch pizza, was as follows:

    Thin Version of Canadave’s NY Style Dough Formulation for 16-inch Pizza
    100%, KASL high-gluten flour, 12.28 oz. (347.67 g.), (2 1/2 c. + 2 T. + 1 t.)
    64.1%, Water (tap), 7.86 oz. (222.86 g.), (just under 1 c.)
    1.32%, Sugar, 0.16 oz. (4.58 g.), (a bit over 1 t.)
    4.63%, Oil, 0.57 oz. (16.10 g.), (a bit under 3 1/2 t.)
    1.32%, Salt, 0.16 oz. (4.58 g.), (between 3/4-7/8 t.)
    0.78%, IDY (instant dry yeast), 0.10 oz. (2.72 g.), (a bit more than 7/8 t.)
    Total dough weight = 21.11 oz. (598.51 g.)
    Thickness Factor (TF) = 0.105

    In making the dough, I made a few changes in the instructions given by Canadave. First, I kneaded the dough entirely by hand. This was done out of necessity since my friend did not have any dough making machines. In fact, the only equipment that was available to me was a pizza stone, a wood peel, a postal scale, an instant-read thermometer and, of course, an oven (a gas oven). Fortunately, I had brought my 16-inch pizza screen with me from Texas.

    Second, I altered the autolyse process a bit by incorporating all of the flour into the dough before adding and kneading in the salt and oil. I found the dough extremely easy to knead, which I attributed to the high hydration (64.1 %) and the use of the autolyse, which itself markedly increased the softness and handling qualities of the dough. I estimate that I hand kneaded the dough for about 15 minutes. In retrospect, I think I could have gotten away with maybe 10-12 minutes and possibly even less. The revelation is that I had no trouble at all in hand kneading the dough with KASL. This leads me to believe that King Arthur’s admonition not to hand knead a KASL dough in a home setting may not apply with equal force to pizza dough as to bread dough. Maybe the key is the use of the autolyse.

    The finished dough, at a temperature of 76.5 degrees F, was refrigerated for 70 hours before being brought out to room temperature and allowed to warm up in preparation for handling and shaping. The warm-up time was about 1 1/2-2 hours. The dough handled very easily and I had no difficulties whatsoever in shaping and stretching the dough out to 16 inches. Once the skin was formed, it was dressed with a cooked Sicilian type pizza sauce (I used a slightly modified version of the 007bond sauce recipe in the first post at,1535.0.html), pre-cooked Italian sausage, pepperoni slices, a 50/50 blend of Grande whole-milk and part-skim mozzarella cheeses, raw and sautéed mushrooms, raw and sautéed green peppers and onions, and chiffonade fresh basil.

    The pizza was baked on the uppermost oven rack position for about 6 minutes and then shifted off of the pizza screen onto a pizza stone that had been preheated for about 1 hour at 500 degrees F, the maximum temperature of the particular oven I was using. I estimate that the pizza was on the stone for about another 8-10 minutes. Once I saw that the oven was not capable of delivering greater heat to bake the pizza faster, I simply did what Tom Lehmann says to do: I just let the pizza bake longer at the lower temperature. Fortunately, everything worked out very well and we got an excellent pizza as a result. Everything about the pizza was very good—the taste, texture, flavor and color were all first rate. The crumb was not as open and airy as other NY styles I have made, but it was still NY like. It even occurred to me that I may have actually overkneaded the dough. I might add that the crust was a bit sweeter than I prefer but that is a minor quibble and easy to adjust the next time. Overall, I like Canadave’s recipe very much. And so did my friend, who proclaimed the pizza to be better than any he has been able to buy from his favorite pizza place.

    The photos below show the finished pizza.