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Author Topic: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?  (Read 15489 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2013, 01:38:24 PM »
Pizza, I enjoy very much reading your posts... They show passion, deep knowledge and respect for the tradition.
This is matter for a different thread, but I am curious to learn your take about certain things surrounding the tradition of Neapolitan pizza.
I am talking about certain philosophical, environmental and cultural aspects that have not much to do with the pizza itself but with the experience surrounding the same.

Omid's has an epic thread on that very subject.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.0.html
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline italdream

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #61 on: July 26, 2013, 01:44:14 PM »
Ha. Thanks for the link ;) I guess I'll have to go through the 108 pages of it... It'll make a nice reading for the summer...
Pizza Party Passione | Alive and Kicking
Blackstone | Semiretired
Kettle Grill Insert | Dumped
Little Black Egg | Retired with Honors
Modified Pizza Bella | Retired with Honors

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #62 on: July 26, 2013, 01:45:37 PM »
Ha. Thanks for the link ;) I guess I'll have to go through the 108 pages of it... It'll make a nice reading for the summer...

It is absolutely worth it.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline wheelman

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #63 on: July 26, 2013, 02:12:41 PM »
 ^^^  and don't miss Omid's amazing website:http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline italdream

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #64 on: July 26, 2013, 02:43:26 PM »
Wow, if he has not done so yet, I see a book in his future...
Pizza Party Passione | Alive and Kicking
Blackstone | Semiretired
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Offline CJ

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #65 on: July 26, 2013, 04:50:20 PM »
Dear Pulcinella, you made some critical points in your post. Mark Twain once said, "Get your facts first, and then you can distort [or modify] them as much as you please." Mozart first had to learn the rules of Baroque and Rococo compositions before being able to break or modify them for the sake of engendering his Classical compositions. In turn, Beethoven had to first master the preceding rules of Classical compositions before evolving them into his Romantic compositions.

In the same vein, if I were to establish my own Neapolitan pizzeria and uphold the tradition that has made it a possibility, first it is imperative for me to understand the tradition (which is an oral tradition for the most part, hence, not readily accessible and understandable) as a fundamental frame of reference that provides a mode of commitment, and, more specifically, as a system of thought, behavior, and rituals shared by a group of people to whom it is entrusted. Next, I would take a considerable amount of time to put to practice the system of thought, behavior, and rituals in making Neapolitan pizzas—the way Neapolitans do—until I have a relative mastery over them. So, I would have to forgo using non-"00" flour, dough fermentation in a refrigerator or chilled box, and the rest of the items you enumerated above. A tradition falls apart when there is no commitment to it and its prescribed norms. And, I am not saying that one should mimic all the norms like a parrot who utters words without understanding their meanings. In my estimation, there are sound reasons underlying the norms.

Once I have mastery over the tradition, which takes years, then I can commence to become creative about it. Ciro Salvo and Da Michele do what they do because they have already gone on a long journey which you and I have just begun. The journey is an odyssey, and every odyssey has an inbuilt sense of return to a distant past. To move forward, we must look back. Good day!

Omid

ah, so could not a Tig welder improve on or even develop a new or better welding without having been a Forge welder?
Did stick welding come about only from a Gas welder? Or Did someone who understood electricity see an application in welding.
Could the stick welder find the path to wire welding without understanding Gas welding?
Or is it that Neapolitan is Just the art of Forge welding.
I love them all but am a true Master of none.
None the less I agree with Omid the more you understand of the roots the better we can care for the tree.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #66 on: July 26, 2013, 11:06:04 PM »
A week on the stick and a minimum wage worker can cook a pizza.  Another week and he can use someones formula and make the dough.  The art is in product, not the manufacture thereof.

Offline Jackitup

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #67 on: July 26, 2013, 11:31:23 PM »
I would respectfully disagree somewhat. Minimum wage, maximum wage, low profile job or high. Not everyone can or will do a good job even given ALL the tools, money and education in the world. THAT comes from within. My dad taught me at a very young age, ALWAYS take pride in your work regardless what it is. From mowing a lawn to building a rocket ship and everything in between, do the best you can...ALWAYS! I work in critical care and I've seen people get straight A's through school and still do not exhibit that at the bedside. Same in the food industry I was raised in. Best equipment, recipes etc and still put out mediocre food, but the high school drop out that goes from dishwasher to cook can be the best chef in the city. You are right, anyone can can cook a pizza and use someones formula, takes an artist, someone with integrity and pride, inner worth, to make it work

jon
Jon

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Offline rdbedwards

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #68 on: November 14, 2017, 03:09:14 PM »
Earlier in this thread Craig raised the question as to the history of 00 flour and how finely flour was or could be milled when NP pizza was developed.  According to this website, the tipo ratings of Italian flour were passed into law in 1967:

http://www.cooksinfo.com/italian-flours

If true, then before 1967, all Neapolitan pizza was made without "00 flour".  If the lineage of NP has been consistent, it must just be the fineness of the milling that was characteristic of NP. 

Offline Ogwoodfire

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #69 on: November 14, 2017, 10:47:19 PM »
I tend to agree with most of what you said Craig. I see pizza STG as needing all the required Ingredients and techniques to be considered Neapolitan STG. That being said I could use all the same techniques, use completely American ingredients and I think anyone would be hard pressed to tell the difference. The “American” pizza prepared with Neapolitan techniques certainly falls somewhere under the Neapolitan umbrella although not STG. I think the origin of the ingredients is often over stated while the techniques and preparations is often understated. My guess is a true Neapolitan pizza chef would always want to use the raw ingredients of the highest quality regardless of their Origin, it just so happens many excellent raw ingredients were readily available in Naples at the time Neapolitan pizza was being developed. What bothers me is when places tout their pizzas as “Neapolitan” and are way off on the techniques such as dough preparation, oven management, cooking technique etc.

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Offline Ogwoodfire

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #70 on: Yesterday at 10:40:40 PM »
My apologies. I did not realize how old this post was or how much was covered. In regards to the flour i never really understood why such emphasis was on the 00 flour (other than the “authorities” said it was required. Many of the 00 flours I find to be inferior in many ways to typical American flours.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Can a pizza be Neapolitan without "00" Flour?
« Reply #71 on: Yesterday at 11:24:01 PM »
My apologies. I did not realize how old this post was or how much was covered. In regards to the flour i never really understood why such emphasis was on the 00 flour

My quest now is to make great [ ] pizza with whatever cheap AP flour I have.  I rarely call it Neapolitan anymore as I'm breaking so many other "rules."

Here is one from a couple days ago - my first batch with La Paloma White Wings flour - a cheap Texas milled flour - I think Pioneer makes it. The boys loved it.

8-hour/70F-ish, 62.5%, 2.8%, 0.1%IDY dough. 45 seconds in the Pizza Party.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 11:54:12 PM by TXCraig1 »
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

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