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  • #801 by HarryHaller73 on 11 Nov 2017
  • Matt,

    To add to your list, I would mention that there are Greek-style places in the northeast that use eggs and milk in their doughs. I wrote about one such place in Massachusetts earlier in this thread and even came up with a few dough formulations based on using milk and eggs.

    Peter

    That's interesting that you mention this, I recently visited a NY style pizza joint in north CT which isn't quite New England, but they add egg to the dough. 
  • #802 by enchant on 12 Nov 2017
  • To add to your list, I would mention that there are Greek-style places in the northeast that use eggs and milk in their doughs. I wrote about one such place in Massachusetts earlier in this thread and even came up with a few dough formulations based on using milk and eggs.

    Peter, is this the latest iteration of that recipe?
    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg144176.html#msg144176
  • #803 by hammettjr on 12 Nov 2017
  • That's interesting that you mention this, I recently visited a NY style pizza joint in north CT which isn't quite New England, but they add egg to the dough.

    You mean NY style pizza isn't quite New England style?
  • #804 by enchant on 12 Nov 2017
  • I recently visited a NY style pizza joint in north CT which isn't quite New England

    Well, if we're speaking geographically, CT is definitely New England.
  • #805 by Pete-zza on 12 Nov 2017
  • That's interesting that you mention this, I recently visited a NY style pizza joint in north CT which isn't quite New England, but they add egg to the dough.
    HH73,

    Bruno Di Fabio, a well known pizza maker in the NY area, makes a version of the NY style pizza that contains eggs. See:

    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26472.msg267233#msg267233, and

    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14326.msg143218#msg143218.

    Unfortunately, the video that showed how Bruno made his dough is no longer available on YouTube and I could not find a substitute. Bruno is very well known so I am sure that if you do a Google search you will find a ton of material.

    Peter
  • #806 by Pete-zza on 12 Nov 2017
  • Peter, is this the latest iteration of that recipe?
    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg144176.html#msg144176
    Pat,

    The link you referenced is for the basic recipe I came up with. However, I later made a second trip to the pizzeria, which I discussed at Reply 529 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=691.msg256043#msg256043. In that post, I suggested that one might increase the amount of yeast as originally called for in the original formulation. You might also want to check out several of the posts following Reply 529 for additional detail. One of those posts has a link to a photo of the pizza maker (Bill Reisopoulos) in a series of photos along with former basketball great Shaquille O'Neal and actor Peter Dante. I posted the photo below for convenience. Photos of the pizzeria and some of the pizzas can be seen in the Yelp link at https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/marblehead-house-of-pizza-marblehead?select=1Z3NoNTpeNVpJZIhbuo1aA.

    Peter
  • #807 by enchant on 12 Nov 2017
  • Thanks Peter.  Lots to read!
  • #808 by deb415611 on 12 Nov 2017
  • Well, if we're speaking geographically, CT is definitely New England.

     ^^^
  • #809 by Pete-zza on 12 Nov 2017
  • Thanks Peter.  Lots to read!
    Pat,

    To add to your reading, here is another Massachusetts dough formulation for the Greek style that I put together from a post at the PMQ Think Tank:

    Reply 384 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=691.msg181438#msg181438.

    You will note the absence of milk or eggs.

    Peter
  • #810 by hammettjr on 12 Nov 2017
  • I'll start with the good news from the 2 bakes I did this weekend...I think I'm basically done with my recipe. This cheese blend was fantastic. The flavor, grease level and melt were tremendous. I also solved the inconsistent flavor I was having by increasing my sauce amount slightly.

    The bad news is I'm having an issue with my pizza sticking to the pan, though I think I will have it sorted out soon. Long story, if you're interested, details are linked below.
    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=50178.0
    Edit: this seems to be resolved. I re-seasoned my pan.

    I've also been struggling the past few weeks with large bubbles forming. This last bake was the largest. The one interesting thing to come out of it, though, is that the bubble forces the cheese to move, so rest of the pizza was as if I used more cheese. I'll need to experiment with adding a bit more cheese as I loved this cheese amount and melt.

    Sauce amount is a slightly heaping cup. I'd guess its 1 cup + 2 tsp. (Increased from 1 cup.)

    Cheese blend is:
    8oz full fat Cracker Barrel Cheddar
    3oz low fat Cracker Barrel Cheddar
    3.5oz whole milk Grande mozz
    3.5oz part skim Grande mozz
    That's 18oz total with 61% Cheddar and 64% of the total using full fat.

    Pics below where you can see the massive bubbles and a close-up of what I think is a near-perfect cheese melt.
  • #811 by mitchjg on 12 Nov 2017
  • Matt:

    You may want to look at this:  http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/ask-the-experts-question-for-lehmann.7358/#post-49630

    I was getting similar bubbles (but not as many, maybe 1, and not as big). If found this when I surfed around and stopped using anything but olive oil on the pan. 

    The other thing was, when I spread the dough in the pan and before topping it, I examined it for any bubbles in the dough that looked worrisome.  I saw one or two and lifted the dough in that area and patted the dough to release the air out and set the dough back down.

    Only 1 pie with the above approaches, but zero bubbles.
  • #812 by Loarina Vega on 12 Nov 2017
  • There was a pizza place I frequented when my kids were little ...pizza place owner invited me back to the kitchen I watched as he threw eggs a malt beverage Goya brand some milk into the yeast mixture I made it like that for some Years because  it made a thicker crust light and fluffy but after some years I stopped using the egg and milk technique and seem to be doing just fine with regular dough and a good cold ferment because it's the process and timing ...I get a better Pizza with 24 42 hour cold ferment.. I guess not so much the ingredients
  • #813 by hammettjr on 12 Nov 2017
  • Matt:

    You may want to look at this:  http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/ask-the-experts-question-for-lehmann.7358/#post-49630

    I was getting similar bubbles (but not as many, maybe 1, and not as big). If found this when I surfed around and stopped using anything but olive oil on the pan. 

    The other thing was, when I spread the dough in the pan and before topping it, I examined it for any bubbles in the dough that looked worrisome.  I saw one or two and lifted the dough in that area and patted the dough to release the air out and set the dough back down.

    Only 1 pie with the above approaches, but zero bubbles.

    Thanks Mitch. I use olive oil, but not enough that the dough would float and let air escape. But when I was doing a test bake earlier, I was able to recognize some air pockets and lift/replace the dough as you said. This should be an easy fix, I just have to keep an eye on it.
  • #814 by HarryHaller73 on 13 Nov 2017
  • Harry, main characteristics to me of a traditional (non-bar) Greek pizza include:

    Oil-lined pan. Edit: This one's a bit debateable. It wouldn't be alot of oil as the bottom isn't super greasy or fried. The top is certainly greasy from the cheese blend.

    Medium-thick crust, like Grandma, but has more density and crisper/sturdier undercrust compared to grandma

    Thick sauce. Made with a heavy puree and water, no additional tomato.

    Heavy amount of sauce.

    Cheese blend has at least 50% mild cheddar.

    Cheese has brown spots.

    This is cosmetic and varies, but my hometown pizzas were party cut. Edit: and the size of choice was always 16"

    Below is a picture from one of the local pizzerias where I grew up. I think  I have the flavors very close, though I'm basing that on memories from 25 years ago.

    Your pie looks absolutely delicious, and your description makes me want to go eat some.
  • #815 by hammettjr on 15 Nov 2017
  • Mitch, can you share some insights regarding your experiments with removing the pie from the pan and finishing the bake in on the rack? Have you experimented with different amounts of time  in the pan, on the rack, and on the cooling rack?
  • #816 by hammettjr on 15 Nov 2017
  • ...The one interesting thing to come out of it, though, is that the bubble forces the cheese to move, so rest of the pizza was as if I used more cheese. I'll need to experiment with adding a bit more cheese as I loved this cheese amount and melt.
    ...

    I'm thinking I'll try 20 oz of cheese (up from 18 oz) on my next 16" pizza. Sounds kinda crazy, am I going overboard?

  • #817 by mitchjg on 15 Nov 2017
  • Mitch, can you share some insights regarding your experiments with removing the pie from the pan and finishing the bake in on the rack? Have you experimented with different amounts of time  in the pan, on the rack, and on the cooling rack?

    Really Big Hedge here because I have not done it enough times - With that:

    I am increasingly convinced that I want to get it out of the pan "as soon as possible."  What I need to be careful about is to know that the more under-baked the pizza is the more floppy it is and the more floppy it is the more of a chance that I will screw it up when I take it out.

    I have been taking them out of the pan about 2 or 3 minutes before I think the top is fully done.  I then put it on a rack for a minute or so (no big deal, I have to put the pizza somewhere when I remove it from the pan) to let that initial steam moisture just go out.

    I have then been returning it to the oven for another 2 or 3 minutes.  Let's say the total is 12 minutes.  My thinking right now is to increase time out of the pan (back to the "as soon as possible") with about 4 or 5 minutes to go. 

    I also like what Nicu said (back in reply 792) about no need for the baking stone.  I think he is right.  I am not sure if the stone really adds a lot to the bottom bake, it slows down/delays my oven heat up and I think returning the pizza to an open rack will allow it to breathe more and shed moister faster.

    I would also mention that I have read through Craig's Bar pie thread a couple of times and it seems like he gets the pizza out of the pan pretty fast and then back in the oven, too.

    I do not think I mentioned this in the thread but I actually had a telephone conversation with a senior engineer at Lloyds after my first bake to discuss this moisture/crispness thing.  After hearing me out, he suggested that, indeed, it was trapped moisture.  And, that the extra moisture was being driven by all the cheese goodness around the edges- essentially sealing the pan closed all around.  He thought I would be better off with one of their perforated pans.  Now that I have baked a few, I think he is right (although I am being cheap about those expensive pans).  He explained that their perforations are not "just holes" in that the science behind it is more holes in the center area (where needed) and fewer near the perimeter.  Additionally, the holes are raised up (like little volcanoes) which stops leakage and dripping.  Very clever, I thought.

    I actually made a pizza with a 12" Lloyd steam pan (lots and lots of perforated holes).  No volcanoes, a lot of holes so I did not grease the pan.  Not only was there no softness/moisture, but the crust was too hard and crackery.  That definitely takes me to "as soon as possible" and that their perforated pans for pizza like this are probably very well designed.

    As I said, this is my thinking but it is not based on enough experience.  I do think I am going to try 5 minutes on the open rack in the oven.  I do not want to push it too far because although "crisp" is nice,  hard and crackery is definitely not what I want here.

    Hope that helps -

    LOL, I would make one of these every day over and over to home in on the best way I can but my wife would kill me and it would be justifiable homicide.... :o
  • #818 by enchant on 16 Nov 2017
  • In non-geography news, regular readers might remember the uber-floppy mess that I created.  I tried a test with just dough and sauce (cheese is expensive to throw away), and the crust was nice and crisp.  Last night I did the exact same thing, but with cheese, and it was again soggy.  So it's got to be the cheese.  Cabot Vermont cheddar is my favorite reasonably-priced cheddar, so that's what I've always used.  It just went on sale at my local supermarket, so I've got ten pounds in the freezer.  :(

    So as much as I love the flavor, I've got to figure that Cabot must be terribly oily and causing my lack of crispness.  Norma, Mitch, Matt and I think others have had good success with Cracker Barrel, so I'm going to give that a go.
  • #819 by mitchjg on 16 Nov 2017
  • I very much look forward to you trying a different cheese, but I suspect that the type/brand of cheese is not the problem.  I am wondering if it is the problem I discussed with the guy from LLoydpans (brand does to matter here) which I wrote about a couple of posts back.

    He thought the cheese that is all around the pan was sealing everything in and, therefore, trapping moisture.  Since the water in the dough at the bottom effectively has no where to go, the dough gets on the soggy side. 

    I do not know how well you seal in the edges but if you do, that may be it.  If you are sealing it up, maybe try the same cheese but keep it away from the edge.  One other thing he suggested to test if the moisture is being trapped - He suggested that I get a hold of a small gauge steel wire.  Run it down one side of the pan, bend it to go across the pan and then bend it back up the side on the other end of the pan.  It will create a "channel" for the steam to vent out of.  I have not tried it but it made sense to me (maybe 2 wires in an "X").

    Either way, let us know how it turns out!
  • #820 by enchant on 16 Nov 2017
  • Too many things to try!  I can't eat that much pizza.   :-\

    I do put cheese around the edges, but not so much that there's a perfect seal.  I'm pretty inconsistent with that.
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