A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: Need advice on improving my NY style Pizza  (Read 296 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Ice Cream Sandwich

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3
  • I Love Pizza!
Need advice on improving my NY style Pizza
« on: June 18, 2021, 01:44:51 AM »
Hi everyone, I've been lurking around here for a few years and finally made some NY style pizza. I was wondering if I could get some of your advice on improving.

I used two different recipes for the pizza dough, one was scott123s and the other was a Lehmann style dough.

The major trouble areas for me were in kneading the dough, fermenting the dough, and stretching the dough.

I hand knead my dough, since I don't have mixers or similar equipment. This was my first time kneading, and I used this video for technique reference .
One cycle of folding the dough, rolling, and turning probably took me 2-3 seconds. I was wondering about some things on kneading.
  • How long should I knead the dough, and does it have to window pane? With both doughs I aimed for a window pane effect or close to it. Although I've read that 4-6 mins was enough, I found that I had to knead for 15-30 minutes so that the dough would have some window pane.
  • If I knead for 4-6 minutes, my dough's doesn't come out smooth, and the dough is not really elastic and rips easily.
  • Is it normal for the dough to look like its coming together as you're kneading it only for it to suddenly start tearing everywhere? I don't believe I was forceful with my kneading.

I cold fermented my doughs for roughly 45-48 hours. I noticed that my scott123 12" pizza doughballs were easier to stretch and had some elasticity. The doughball was ~1.5-1.75x bigger coming out of the fridge. I think my Lehmann style 14" pizza doughballs came out over-fermented. The dough tripled in size and was about to come out of the glass pyrex bowl. There was a lot of holes in the bottom some quite big, and it was extremely stretchy. When I tried using gravity stretching, it drooped down and tore easily.
  • How could I prevent the overfermenting of my doughs? The Lehmann style dough had 0.375% IDY vs the 0.5% IDY scott123 dough, so I thought it wouldn't overferment.

I opened the dough on a rubber cutting board and also tried on a countertop dusted with bench flour. In both cases I found that I couldn't turn the edges of my dough. It always felt like there was a lot of friction preventing it from turning.

For my bakes, I preheated my baking steel at 500 degrees for an hour, and the steel gets to 530-540 degrees. I baked the pizzas for 6-7.5 mins. 6 mins seems to be best for me, since 7 mins made the texture really flat and dry. I really liked the texture of how the Lehmann pizzas came out. It had a lighter, airy quality to it. I did notice though that my cheese almost always boils over, and it runs like lava just after baking. How do I prevent this? I use cold cheese with room temp sauce.

Here are the dough recipes I used:

Scott123's pizza dough (Two 12" pizzas)
King Arthur Bread Flour (100%): 326g
Water (room temp) (61%): 198.8g
IDY (.5%): 1.629g
Salt (1.75%): 5.7g
Soybean Oil (3%): 9.78g
Sugar (1%): 3.26g
Total (167.25%): 545g
TF = 0.085

Lehmann style dough (Two 14" pizzas)
King Arthur Bread Flour (100%): 477g
Water (63%): 300.56g
IDY (.375%): 1.79g
Salt (1.75%): 8.35g
Soybean Oil (1%): 4.77g
Sugar (1%): 4.77g
Total (167.125%): 797.315g
TF = 0.091

« Last Edit: June 18, 2021, 01:46:43 AM by Ice Cream Sandwich »

Offline Jon in Albany

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2656
  • Location: Albany, NY
    • Jon In Albany Blog
Re: Need advice on improving my NY style Pizza
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2021, 03:16:41 PM »


Hi everyone, I've been lurking around here for a few years and finally made some NY style pizza. I was wondering if I could get some of your advice on improving.

I used two different recipes for the pizza dough, one was scott123s and the other was a Lehmann style dough.

The major trouble areas for me were in kneading the dough, fermenting the dough, and stretching the dough.

I hand knead my dough, since I don't have mixers or similar equipment. This was my first time kneading, and I used this video for technique reference .
One cycle of folding the dough, rolling, and turning probably took me 2-3 seconds. I was wondering about some things on kneading.
  • How long should I knead the dough, and does it have to window pane? With both doughs I aimed for a window pane effect or close to it. Although I've read that 4-6 mins was enough, I found that I had to knead for 15-30 minutes so that the dough would have some window pane.
  • If I knead for 4-6 minutes, my dough's doesn't come out smooth, and the dough is not really elastic and rips easily.
  • Is it normal for the dough to look like its coming together as you're kneading it only for it to suddenly start tearing everywhere? I don't believe I was forceful with my kneading.

I cold fermented my doughs for roughly 45-48 hours. I noticed that my scott123 12" pizza doughballs were easier to stretch and had some elasticity. The doughball was ~1.5-1.75x bigger coming out of the fridge. I think my Lehmann style 14" pizza doughballs came out over-fermented. The dough tripled in size and was about to come out of the glass pyrex bowl. There was a lot of holes in the bottom some quite big, and it was extremely stretchy. When I tried using gravity stretching, it drooped down and tore easily.
  • How could I prevent the overfermenting of my doughs? The Lehmann style dough had 0.375% IDY vs the 0.5% IDY scott123 dough, so I thought it wouldn't overferment.

I opened the dough on a rubber cutting board and also tried on a countertop dusted with bench flour. In both cases I found that I couldn't turn the edges of my dough. It always felt like there was a lot of friction preventing it from turning.

For my bakes, I preheated my baking steel at 500 degrees for an hour, and the steel gets to 530-540 degrees. I baked the pizzas for 6-7.5 mins. 6 mins seems to be best for me, since 7 mins made the texture really flat and dry. I really liked the texture of how the Lehmann pizzas came out. It had a lighter, airy quality to it. I did notice though that my cheese almost always boils over, and it runs like lava just after baking. How do I prevent this? I use cold cheese with room temp sauce.

Here are the dough recipes I used:

Scott123's pizza dough (Two 12" pizzas)
King Arthur Bread Flour (100%): 326g
Water (room temp) (61%): 198.8g
IDY (.5%): 1.629g
Salt (1.75%): 5.7g
Soybean Oil (3%): 9.78g
Sugar (1%): 3.26g
Total (167.25%): 545g
TF = 0.085

Lehmann style dough (Two 14" pizzas)
King Arthur Bread Flour (100%): 477g
Water (63%): 300.56g
IDY (.375%): 1.79g
Salt (1.75%): 8.35g
Soybean Oil (1%): 4.77g
Sugar (1%): 4.77g
Total (167.125%): 797.315g
TF = 0.091

I'll offer my answers to your questions. Other opinions may vary...

For kneading...a window pane is not necessary, especially if you are doing a long cold ferment. Over time, there will be biochemical gluten development so you don't have to go overboard with kneading. Once all your dough ingredients come together in kind of a sticky mess and all the flour is fully incorporated, cover the dough and let it sit for 15-20 minutes. Then do a stretch/fold and a minute or so of kneading. That should get you a pretty nice dough. If not, repeat the rest, stretch/fold, quick knead. Then portion the dough and put it in the fridge. Give it an hour or two on the counter before stretching to let the dough get to 50-60 degrees.

Fermentation is a balance of yeast amount, time and temperature. Lehmann doughs aren't meant for a ton of time out before refrigeration. My guess is the long knead before refrigeration got the dough above 80 degrees so it took longer to cool down in the fridge. That time at a higher temperature gave the yeast a jump start and you ended up over feremented.

There are a lot of ways to open a dough ball. All of them take practice. Just keep at it and you will find a way to get it done. Tough to explain, but there are a lot of videos of different techniques.

Did the cheese slide off when you were eating a slice? It kind of sounds like you may have had too much sauce on there. One way around that is a cheese on the bottom pie. They can be really good.

Offline jsaras

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4001
  • Location: Camarillo, CA
Re: Need advice on improving my NY style Pizza
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2021, 05:36:08 PM »

How long should I knead the dough, and does it have to window pane? With both doughs I aimed for a window pane effect or close to it. Although I've read that 4-6 mins was enough, I found that I had to knead for 15-30 minutes so that the dough would have some window pane.

I've never kneaded ANY dough for 15-30 minutes.  I use this technique:
Things have never been more like today than they are right now.

Offline amolapizza

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2138
  • Location: Luxembourg / Spain
  • If pizza is food for the gods, what are we..
Re: Need advice on improving my NY style Pizza
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2021, 06:15:18 PM »
I don't know anything about NY pizza! :D

Still I feel that there is no need to mix to a windowpane test..  Like already said, time will take care of it.

Italians talk about something called the "punto di pasta", maybe roughly translated as the dough point.  You'll have to learn to recognize that, it's when the dough starts drying out and gets firm, essentially getting a skin and becoming a dough.

It's hard to over knead a dough by hand, but if you see it tearing that's too much.  It's never a good thing!

What happens is that when the gluten is formed, water molecules play a part in that bond.  If you make the dough so tight that it starts tearing, then the water will be released again.  This is going too far.

I've never seen it with around 60% hydration dough, but with 80%, I've occasionally managed to overdo it and "tear the gluten web".  If you see that stop and leave the dough a while to relax again.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline apizza

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 867
  • Location: Wethersfield, CT
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Need advice on improving my NY style Pizza
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2021, 07:49:20 PM »
Looking at the video you use for a guide.
I feel the young lady is to gentle with her kneading. Push into that baby and it will smooth out sooner.
Marty

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Online Ice Cream Sandwich

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Need advice on improving my NY style Pizza
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2021, 07:57:20 PM »
Thanks for the replies everyone.

I made the Lehmann style dough again yesterday, but with 0.275-0.3% IDY. I didn't have a chance to read through the comments until today, so I'll have to wait until the next batch to try out some of the advice :-D.

I did use stretch/fold this time around and I liked how it turned out. I incorporated the dough, and went through 3 cycles of rest 20 mins and stretch/fold. I could pull it pretty well, it didn't tear, and had a decently smooth outer surface. I did notice while balling the dough at the end, some small bubbles were forming on it already. Also the pincer method looks really interesting. I'll give that a go as well on my next batch.

Also now that apizza mentions it, I'm definitely quite gentle with my kneading possibly even moreso than in that video, so I'll add a bit more force next time.

With the cheese it doesn't slide off after it's cooled, but rather directly after baking. I used 5oz LMWM and 3.5-4oz of sauce. My sauce was pretty watery though. It was a can of Cento "Italian" whole peeled tomatoes, and I used ~24 oz of tomatoes + 2-3oz of the juices in the can. When the cheese boils over I notice it tastes extremely salty for my liking. I'll try putting the cheese first on my next bake.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2021, 07:59:36 PM by Ice Cream Sandwich »

Offline hammettjr

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3568
  • Location: Long Island, NY
  • Matt
Re: Need advice on improving my NY style Pizza
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2021, 08:29:51 PM »
Would be very helpful to see some pics. Doesn't sound like too much sauce and cheese (I like it saucy and cheesy!). I find that when I have a very flat rim crust the cheese oozes onto it...so I focus on making a deliberate rim to keep that thin sauce and molten cheese in place.

Matt

Offline Cnjr5544

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6
  • Location: NYC
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Need advice on improving my NY style Pizza
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2021, 06:48:03 PM »
For kneading...a window pane is not necessary, especially if you are doing a long cold ferment. Over time, there will be biochemical gluten development so you don't have to go overboard with kneading. Once all your dough ingredients come together in kind of a sticky mess and all the flour is fully incorporated, cover the dough and let it sit for 15-20 minutes. Then do a stretch/fold and a minute or so of kneading. That should get you a pretty nice dough. If not, repeat the rest, stretch/fold, quick knead. Then portion the dough and put it in the fridge. Give it an hour or two on the counter before stretching to let the dough get to 50-60 degrees.

Thanks for the explanation.  I've been wondering what is the effective difference between mixing everything at once and hand kneading dough vs autolysing, pincering, then doing stretch a pulls spaced at 20 min apart (Ken Forkish method, right?)  The latter has produced bigger oven spring for me in my tests, which is what I"m after.  I'm wondering what is the food science explanation of why that is.

Offline Quebert

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 447
  • Location: Riverside
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Need advice on improving my NY style Pizza
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2021, 07:12:30 PM »
I use the stretch and fold method, I bring it together with a Danish Dough Wisk then I use my hands for a minute or so just to get all the loose bits incorporated.  Then 3 or 4 stretch and folds and my dough comes out great.  I mostly make NY dough and it's my favorite method.  I start with the coldest water from my faucet and there's very little actual working of the dough.  I wait 10-15 minutes between folding, but it only takes a few minutes of actual work on my part so it's nice and quick.


A D V E R T I S E M E N T


 

wordpress