Best mixer for low to high hydration dough

[Jackie Tran]

I currently use a Bosch Universal Plus with the new style SS bowl for my dough. I use 409g of bread flour per batch at 67% hydration with no issues.

Don't know what the alleged issue would be with higher hydration dough.

Not sure about the SS "dough" bowl, but the regular mixing bowl where the mixing arm attaches at the top (SS or plastic) does not do high hydration doughs.  The dough wraps itself along the center post and does not mix.  This is with a small batch of about 500-600gm.  I'm not sure about a bigger batch of high hydration dough though. It may mix just fine. 

[steel_baker]

Not sure about the SS "dough" bowl, but the regular mixing bowl where the mixing arm attaches at the top (SS or plastic) does not do high hydration doughs.  The dough wraps itself along the center post and does not mix.  This is with a small batch of about 500-600gm.  I'm not sure about a bigger batch of high hydration dough though. It may mix just fine. 

I don't have the dough bowl. I use the regular SS bowl with the center shaft. No issues. My batches are 409g of flour @ 67% so certainly not large. It does wrap around the center shaft but it also mixes just fine. It grabs the center shaft and the dough hook then stretches the dough ball. Seems like the proper kneading action to me and my doughs always come out like silk. I receive many compliments on my pizza dough. Check out the youtube video I posted above. It shows the bowl in action from above. The end of the video also shows the beautiful crumb of the baked dough. Been using the BUP with this size batch of high hydration dough for well over a year now with excellent results.

[Jackie Tran]

SB, I don't see the YT video you are referencing.  I would love to see a video of your 409gm batch mixed in your Bosch, the resulting dough, and the final crumb. 
How long are you mixing for? Does the dough stay wrapped up the entire time, or does it come down at some point?

Thanks,
Chau

[steel_baker]

SB, I don't see the YT video you are referencing.  I would love to see a video of your 409gm batch mixed in your Bosch, the resulting dough, and the final crumb.  
How long are you mixing for? Does the dough stay wrapped up the entire time, or does it come down at some point?

Thanks,
Chau

I pulse until the dough ball comes together, rest for 15 mins, then knead for 6 mins. The dough generally stays wrapped the entire time which in my understanding is how the mixer is supposed to work because it provides the necessary stretching of the gluten strands.

The link to the video is in my post from last evening:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11962.msg161442.html#msg161442

steel_baker

[tikidoc]

I have both the Bosch Compact and the new DLX.  I have had the Bosch for a while, and it is an impressive little mixer.  Beats the crap out of my old KA (pun intended) which died 6 months ago or so.  It looks like a toy and it is very lightweight but the motor is powerful.  I have done both high hydration doughs such as ciabattas, as well as fairly dense bagel doughs with good success.  Once the dough comes together in a ball, you have to hold the thing on the counter or it will bounce right off but if you can accept that and you don't much care that it looks really cheap, it is a great little mixer for the money.

I am still learning with the DLX but so far I like it.  It is easier to make a high hydration dough with this mixer (with the exception of bagels, I tend to make more high hydration doughs in general), and you can just walk away and let it go.  It requires a bit more fussing with drier doughs, but you can still make them very successfully.  I have done my usual bagel recipe (59% hydration), and I started with the scraper/mixer part then switched to the dough hook as it came together.  

Jess

ETA - The DLX has done fine with smaller batches (so far, have just done a couple times).  My ciabatta recipe uses 500 gm flour and it comes together no problem with the DLX.

[Jackie Tran]

I pulse until the dough ball comes together, rest for 15 mins, then knead for 6 mins. The dough generally stays wrapped the entire time which in my understanding is how the mixer is supposed to work because it provides the necessary stretching of the gluten strands.

The link to the video is in my post from last evening:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11962.msg161442.html#msg161442

steel_baker

SB, thanks for posting that video.  It is well made and your Victory Pig Pizza looks fabulous.  Nice work!.  I'd like to see you do a recipe/method write up for the forum if you don't mind sharing. 

Onto the mixing at 8:30, you show the dough mixing but it is not tied up on the center shaft.  It's mixing along the bottom of the bowl as it should be.  Now TBH, it's been a long while since I've mixed a wet small batch dough up in the Bosch whereby it's just hanging out on the center shaft.  It does mix, but very inefficiently.  At 400gm, there doesn't seem to be enough dough to allow the arms to pull it off of the center shaft.  This may be a completely different story for a bigger batch, I don't know. But with a small wet batch, every rotation of the arms knudges the dough just a bit along the center shaft.  Technically, it's mixing but how long would you have to run the machine to get a good dough I'm not sure?

This is very different from my antique Kitchen Aid mixer that does mix small wet batches just fine, but I just got it so I haven't been able to do the comparison tests yet.

I'm curious if you are using BF or HG for the dough in the video, it looks like BF, but I just want to make sure.

With your dough in the video, does it stay at the bottom of the bowl the entire mix or is it getting hung up on the center shaft later on and is not shown in the video?

thanks,
Chau

[steel_baker]

SB, thanks for posting that video.  It is well made and your Victory Pig Pizza looks fabulous.  Nice work!.  I'd like to see you do a recipe/method write up for the forum if you don't mind sharing. 

Onto the mixing at 8:30, you show the dough mixing but it is not tied up on the center shaft.  It's mixing along the bottom of the bowl as it should be.  Now TBH, it's been a long while since I've mixed a wet small batch dough up in the Bosch whereby it's just hanging out on the center shaft.  It does mix, but very inefficiently.  At 400gm, there doesn't seem to be enough dough to allow the arms to pull it off of the center shaft.  This may be a completely different story for a bigger batch, I don't know. But with a small wet batch, every rotation of the arms knudges the dough just a bit along the center shaft.  Technically, it's mixing but how long would you have to run the machine to get a good dough I'm not sure?

This is very different from my antique Kitchen Aid mixer that does mix small wet batches just fine, but I just got it so I haven't been able to do the comparison tests yet.

I'm curious if you are using BF or HG for the dough in the video, it looks like BF, but I just want to make sure.

With your dough in the video, does it stay at the bottom of the bowl the entire mix or is it getting hung up on the center shaft later on and is not shown in the video?

thanks,
Chau

I use bread flour for my pizza dough. I usually buy in bulk at Costco or Sam's Club & store in bulk containers.

The dough always hangs on the center shaft during the kneading when I make a batch of dough at 67%. It just didn't show it in the video since I was focused on the production technique for that particular style of pizza and not the mixing action so much. 67% just seems to make it sticky enough that it "hangs on" to the shaft. If I drop the hydration down to 64-65%, it doesn't hang on but stays on the bottom. I haven't had any issues with it not being thoroughly mixed and the results are always fantastic. I have always assumed that it's just the nature of the beast that the high hydration dough will creep up the center shaft. I will say that with the sticking to the center shaft, the dough stretches quotes a bit as the dough hook pulls it around and I believe that is how the real kneading action is occurring. It will skip on the bottom from time to time but for the most part, the dough hook really pulls & stretches it around the center shaft. You've seen the crumb structure on the finished product and it always receives excellent comments from anybody who has eaten my trays. They always comment about the lightness & great texture of the crust.

Regarding the method writeup, I have written up the recipe & method to make this pizza and can just copy & paste it into the VP Pizza thread that I started in the Sicilian forum earlier this year.

Thanks-

steel_baker

[steel_baker]

SB, thanks for posting that video.  It is well made and your Victory Pig Pizza looks fabulous.  Nice work!.  I'd like to see you do a recipe/method write up for the forum if you don't mind sharing. 

As requested, here is a link to the recipe & method as posted in the Sicilian forum:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13048.msg161538.html#msg161538

steel_baker

[Jackie Tran]

As requested, here is a link to the recipe & method as posted in the Sicilian forum:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13048.msg161538.html#msg161538

steel_baker

Thank you for the link and clarification.  I'll definitely give your VP pie a try, it looks great!  Good to know it is still mixing anyway.  I just never gave it much of a chance or time because it looks like it's just sitting there on the shaft and not moving, but again it was only a 400gm batch of dough which is small.  And your batches are typically 409gm as well?   I'll definitely need to do more testing.  Thanks for this new info.

UPDATE: okay I just looked at your recipe and you are using 409gm of flour for a dough batch of 711gm give or take and not a 409gm batch.  Good to know that I just had to up my batch size.

Chau

[Sartanely]

I am not that active in posting but reading a lot and have learned a lot from this forum. After reading numerous threads I decided to get a bosch universal plus to make pizza and bread doughs. I tried it several times already with different hydration doughs 64% being the highest. I say I am not impressed with the results. The dough comes out runny and still sticky after "kneeding" it for several minutes and it does not look a dough ball at all.
I am thinking returning it and getting spiral mixer but have hard times to decide which one? Money is no problem but want a good compact mixer for home use.

[Jackie Tran]

I am not that active in posting but reading a lot and have learned a lot from this forum. After reading numerous threads I decided to get a bosch universal plus to make pizza and bread doughs. I tried it several times already with different hydration doughs 64% being the highest. I say I am not impressed with the results. The dough comes out runny and still sticky after "kneeding" it for several minutes and it does not look a dough ball at all.
I am thinking returning it and getting spiral mixer but have hard times to decide which one? Money is no problem but want a good compact mixer for home use.

Sartanely, for a compact mixer look into the Bosch compact.  It's not a spiral mixer, but it is a planetary.  It's mixing action is different from the Universal.  It's mixing action looks like the Kitchen aids.  I have an old K45 Kitchen aid which handles high hydration doughs much better than the Universal, so I'm betting the compact is the same.

You may also check Craigslist for the old KA.  You can get one for $60 or so.  These things are great for high hydration small batches. 

[dmaxdmax]

My issue was dough climbing up the post in the standard bowl.  The SS bowl has no post to climb which, for me, is very helpful though not essential.