Any info on this mixer?

[AKSteve]

 http://www.internationalfse.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=104-ARM01&Category_Code=MIXER&Product_Count=0

It's a Thunderbird ARM-01. 1/2H.P., gear-driven with 3 speeds. It looks really similar to the Hobart N50, but for about $500 less. And it's got more horesepower, too.


With the amount of pizza's I've been making lately, using either my Viking or KitchenAid mixer is getting to be a chore. To do all my dough in one batch, I need to be able to mix about 15cups of flour at a time and hopefully this mixer will do it.

Steve

[pizzanapoletana]

Steve,

I would rather go for the mixer that was talked about at this post:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1431.0.html

IMO a planetary is ONLY a mixer, whilst a fork type is a kneader

Ciao

[AKSteve]

That Santos mixer sounds great, but I have a couple of issues. One, I have no idea where I can purchase one in the U.S. Any links? Two, is it only good for large batches of dough? Although this might not be a big issues, since these days the smallest amount of dough I make at a time takes 10 cups of flour, enough for about 6 pizzas.

Right now, I'm torn between the Santos and just getting the Electrolux DLX, which seems like a proven commodity. The DLX can handle more flour than I had assumed.

Steve

[AKSteve]

This is the one, right? http://www.yourdelight.com/santos.htm

It seems to be marked down a lot, so is this a pretty good price?

Steve

[Bill/CDMX]

My Santos cost about $860 including shipping, but there was a big price increase a few months ago, perhaps due to dollar dropping WRT Euro. Now that the dollar is back up, perhaps the price will come back down.

As David wrote in a previous post, the Santos does best with batches of 1kg of flour or more. This is for a relatively wet dough. For drier dough, such as for baguettes, 500-600 grams of flour is about the minimum to get good kneading action.

It is a great mixer for all kinds of dough and produces a very different kneading action than my KA with it's dough hook.

Bill/SFNM

[scott r]

I was wondering if anybody with a Santos (Bill, David)?? has tried to get a Caputo dough down to 60% hydration starting with water first?  Can it go that low?

[Bill/CDMX]

I was wondering if anybody with a Santos (Bill, David)?? has tried to get a Caputo dough down to 60% hydration starting with water first?  Can it go that low?

Scott,

My last try was at about 60% including the water in the starter, but I didn't add the water first. Why should that be tried?

Bill/SFNM

[David]

I've kept mine to about 64% Scott.

[scott r]

Scott,

My last try was at about 60% including the water in the starter, but I didn't add the water first. Why should that be tried?

Bill/SFNM

Bill, the reason I ask is just that over the past few months I have been trying every hydration between 60 and 68.  I have been amazed at the differences between the crust textures with this slight change in recipe.  I think that the outcome is even more pronounced because I am cooking at a slightly lower than optimum temperature.  I am also amazed at the differences that the temp of the oven can make on the final pizza texture.  I have found that within a lower hydration my consistency between pie to pie, and batch of dough to batch of dough is very strong.  As the hydration increases my consistency is not as stable. 

My electorlux is a truly amazing mixer, fully capable of small to huge batches and a world class texture, but it does have trouble getting a Caputo dough under 64ish %.  One good side effect of this issue is that it forces me to finish incorporating my last few percent of flour by hand if I am trying to achieve a lower hydration percentage.  There really is a point where I can actually feel the dough start to change, and from my experience this is the best time to stop kneading for the texture of crust that I prefer. This aspect of being "in touch" with the dough is probably part of the reason why I am experiencing such great consistency with the lower hydration doughs in my oven.  I am guessing that this could be part of the reason why people at some successful professional pizzerias that have the money to afford a quality mixer are still doing most of the work by hand.

What I meant by "starting with water first" is just what I think you are already doing.  Starting with Marco's classic recipe of water first, then adding the flour.

I am happy to know that the Santos is fully capable of a 60% hydration dough.  This is the only feasible step up in mixer as far as I know, and I have thought on a few occasions about selling the electrolux (which seems to retain much of its original value) for a Santos.

I was wondering if you or David could give a quick explanation of the process involved with using the mixer.  Do you have to stand there and rotate the bowl for the full duration of mixing???

[Bill/CDMX]

Scott,

I guess I really don't follow Marco's classic method. I dump 75% of the flour into the bowl and then add to that all of the salted water and starter. After all of this is incorporated, I slowly sprinkle in the remaining flour until I get the desired kneading action - usually there is a little flour left over. The definition of "desired kneading action" is something that I'm getting used to slowly. And how long to knead is still problematic.

There is no need to manually rotate the bowl, especially if using 1kg of flour or more. The action of the fork pulling the dough is enough to keep the bowl turning. A knob can be tightened to add resistance to the bowl axis to slow down the rotation.

Bill/SFNM

[David]

I have different results from you Bill.It could be because I always start with all of my water first ,or maybe because i'm making a 65% hydrated  dough?With a Litre of liquid I always have to manually rotate my bowl until ( I'm guessing) about 80% of my flour has been added.Only then does it really turn under its own momentum.I don't have the rotation inhibitor screw tightened at all. As for any comparrisons with other domestic machines-my other mixer is an 8 yr old KA Pro Line 325 W.,which is a waste of time for any typr of heavy dough mixing IMO and I only keep it now for making Cakes /Desserts.

[Bill/CDMX]

David,

Have you tried greasing the axle? Whenever I wash the bowl, I put a little grease in the hole on the bottom of the bowl. I started doing this because it  made the most awful squeaking sound.

I should clarify: when I add water and starter, I use a rubber spatula to mix it all for a bit before putting the bowl on the mixer. Sorry for not mentioning that.

Scott and David: is there a reason why you are adding the water first?

Bill/SFNM

[David]

Bill,
I've messed around with the little peg that protrudes against the bowl rotator and that appears to have been stuck somewhat,so maybe that is why I'm having to manually rotate the bowl longer.as for the water ,I think I mentioned else where that I was taught to add the water to the flour.However every pizza maker that I've watched and spoken to seems to do the opposite,for what reason I don't fully understand yet?I decided to follow the crowd for now on this one as my thoughts are that it may allow for better absorption.

[scott r]

Bill,
I start with water/salt/statrter first, then gradually add the flour once the mixer starts.  I have found that if I start with some of the flour already in there, or add a bunch of it too fast at first, that I see lumps.  It can take a while for my mixer to smooth these out, and they just make me nervous.  I could be wrong, but I also feel that with my mixer the doughs just turn out stretching a little easier with the slow and steady addition of the flour.  This might be because the flour has more time to absorb water, almost like doing a autolyse.  Like I have mentioned the "problem" with my machine is when I  try to get the hydration lower, so the long slow flour adding stage of my mix helps with that.  I have a feeling that with your mixer things would be different.  Just like I think everyone's oven probably has a different perfect hydration, every mixer probably has a different perfect procedure.  This is also a nice excuse to experiment and make more pizza!

Just food for thought here, a friend of mine was invited to watch one of the top Neapolitan pizzerias (known for having great crust even in Naples) make dough.  They dumped 90% of the flour in the mixer all at once right at the beginning of the mix. The final 10% was added right at the end just to get the desired consistency.

[David]

Bill,
I remember Marco gave this advice earlier in a similar thread,which probably accounts for my absorption comments.

There is technical reasons behind starting with the water first or the flour.

This will affect absorbtion, oxidation, increase the strenght of the flour, maturation time, dough fermentation and maturation, and many others.

Instead of me telling you the answers once again, I think that would be more of a learning point for you, if you would experiment and then come up with your own conclusions

[Pete-zza]

scott,

My recollection is the same as David's.

As far as the way that professionals make their dough is concerned, I would think that it is a lot easier to put the flour, say, a 50-lb. bag, into the mixer and then add water, than to do it the other way around. I would think that trying to pour a hefty bag of flour on top of the water in the mixer bowl would create a big splash just like a person jumping into a swimming pool. Also, if the flour is added to the water, and it turns out that more flour is necessary, then that can throw off the baker's percents for the rest of the ingredients (other than the water) and produce inconsistent results. Adjusting the water doesn't have that effect since it only affects the hydration ratio. In a home setting using a stand mixer, it is easy enough to start with the water in the bowl and add the dry ingredients.

Peter

[David]

Peter,
I don't wish to cause confusion on this point,but it is my understanding that even in professional operations ,90% of Italian Pizza makers begin with the water first (though I was taught the opposite,for the exact reasons you outline).This information was provided by respected  Italian Pizza maker Teo, if my memory serves me right and so I have continued with the water first regime,
                                                                                                        David

[Pete-zza]

David,

Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking of domestic operations using Hobarts and similar mixers, which are quite different from using fork and other European type mixers.

Peter

[pizzanapoletana]

As I was mentioned.. here I am.

I would like to point out that to obtain certain type of doughs, starting with the water first is not negotiable!!!
Adding more water at the end of mixing is more then simply problematic, whilst adding  some more flour to a wet dough is much easier.

I remember starting with 54Lt of water and adding something about 90kg of flour for a dough batch in one of the most famous pizzeria were I have "staged" alongside the master pizzamaker

Petezza, I can assure you that the majority of pizzeria in Italy, even the ones that do not make Pizza Napoletana, starts with the water first.

Either way you have to slowly dose, otherwise even if you "dump" 15 liters of water to 50lb of flour you have the same splashing risk.

Once again, that process is necessary to obtain a certain type of product, that cannot be obtained otherwise. The baker percentage cannot be an excuse as each batch of flour may absorb more or less water.

Ciao