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Author Topic: Dough deflates during cold fermentation?  (Read 2928 times)

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Offline PentiumIIPizza

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Dough deflates during cold fermentation?
« on: May 26, 2019, 05:29:40 PM »
Twice I have tried to make the Pan Pizza from the recipe page, but using Pete-zza's dough formulation scaled to 22 ounces for a 14" pan. Both times the dough deflated during cold fermentation.

First time I let the dough proof in a cold oven with the light on. Within an hour or so, the dough had filled the entire pan and was touching the plastic wrap covering the pan. I moved the pan to the fridge for cold fermentation. Next day the dough had deflated and was no longer touching the plastic wrap, it was still the same diameter, but had shrunk in height.

Second time I just let the dough proof on the kitchen table, as I was worried if using the oven like first time could be a problem. This time it took much longer but finally the dough filled the entire pan and was moved to the fridge. Next day the exact same thing had happened, the dough had shrunk in height.

Both times I let the pan sit on the kitchen table without plastic wrap, for about an hour before dressing and baking. During this time the dough regained som of the height lost while in the fridge.

Is it normal for the dough to deflate during cold fermentation or is there a problem that could be corrected?

Offline Rolls

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Re: Dough deflates during cold fermentation?
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2019, 07:16:15 PM »
My guess would be that moving the dough to a colder environment decreases the pressure within the dough causing it to implode.



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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Dough deflates during cold fermentation?
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2019, 10:00:46 PM »
What was the finished dough temperature? A dough that is too warm will act exactly as you've described.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Yael

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Re: Dough deflates during cold fermentation?
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2019, 11:37:56 PM »
Why proofing before CF, is it Pete-zza's procedure that calls for it? (if you have a link of the recipe)
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Offline PentiumIIPizza

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Re: Dough deflates during cold fermentation?
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2019, 01:39:33 AM »
What was the finished dough temperature? A dough that is too warm will act exactly as you've described.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Unfortunately I didn't measure the temperature of the dough.

I must admit that before reading your reply, I didn't know that finished dough temperature was something important. I have now searched the forum and found a very good and detailed explanation you have written:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26095.msg464759#msg464759

It says that a temperature of 70 to 75F after mixing can be used as a rule for home made pizza. Even tough I didn't measure, I can say that in both cases the temperature was much higher than that, the dough felt quite warm as I pressed it out into the pan.

The total amount of water in the recipe is 210 grams (13.24 oz) and the amount of dry yeast is 5 grams (0.16 oz). The water was 98.6F when yeast was added.

If the dough should be 70 to 75F after mixing, I will have to reduce the water temperature, but won't that inhibit the yeast from working? Or is there another way?

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Offline PentiumIIPizza

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Re: Dough deflates during cold fermentation?
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2019, 01:50:56 AM »
Why proofing before CF, is it Pete-zza's procedure that calls for it? (if you have a link of the recipe)

I'm following the steps found here:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/panpizza.php

It says: "Let the dough rise until it has filled the entire pan and is about 1 1/2" thick."

I'm using the dough formulation from this post by Pete-zza:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4607.msg38909.html#msg38909

Offline MadMatt

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Re: Dough deflates during cold fermentation?
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2019, 02:27:55 AM »
Those instructions sound crazy to me which is why I never used it but didn't want to say anything  :-X


Many of the pans are 1 1/2" tall and I'm sure pizza hut use that size, possibly 2".     I've only made one pan pizza, which was just mix, place in pan and let rise at RT using  the Baker's yeast quantity prediction chart as a guide.      22oz of dough in a 14" pan looks tiny,  I can't imagine it getting close to  the top of a 1/2" pan without being overproofed.   


 ???













« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 02:29:44 AM by MadMatt »

Offline PentiumIIPizza

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Re: Dough deflates during cold fermentation?
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2019, 03:32:10 AM »
I forgot to mention that the pan I'm using is not a deep dish pan, but this one:

https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00ZRUPCQA/?tag=pmak-20

It's probably 1 inch tall, maybe a little more.

Offline Yael

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Re: Dough deflates during cold fermentation?
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2019, 06:01:29 AM »
I'm following the steps found here:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/panpizza.php

It says: "Let the dough rise until it has filled the entire pan and is about 1 1/2" thick."

I'm using the dough formulation from this post by Pete-zza:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4607.msg38909.html#msg38909

Oh OK.
I think you'll get better results if you proof after CF. At least, you cannot fail! When making "pizza in teglia", I CF overnight after mixing (the dough is made in the afternoon or evening), then the next day I take it out 4-5H before baking.  RT = 21~23°C, yeast = 0.5%, hydration 75~85%.
It you try let me know and take some pics!
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Offline PentiumIIPizza

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Re: Dough deflates during cold fermentation?
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2019, 12:36:55 AM »
I made the pizza again and the FDT was 83.3 F (28.5 C) so higher than expected, but now I know what FF to use in the future.

It took about 4.5 hours for the dough to rise and fill the entire pan at room temperature. The amount ADY was also reduced this time. However, within an hour after moving the pan to the fridge, the dough had deflated just like before.

Next day, the pan was moved to the kitchen table 2 hours before dressing. I was very careful not to press down on the dough while putting on the sauce, but just by merely touching the dough, it deflated once more. I don't remember that happening last time. I finished dressing and after 20 minutes the dough had raised a good amount.

Surprisingly, the dough rose much more in the oven than I have seen before. The end result was the best so far. The pizza was thicker, softer and much more fluffy.

I can't really figure out if the collapsing is a problem or not, it seems wrong, but I don't know.

I should mention that the dough is hand kneaded in case that makes a difference.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2019, 12:46:37 AM by PentiumIIPizza »

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Offline PentiumIIPizza

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Re: Dough deflates during cold fermentation?
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2019, 12:38:29 AM »
My guess would be that moving the dough to a colder environment decreases the pressure within the dough causing it to implode.



Rolls

Does this mean that it's not a problem and I should expect it to happen? Or is it beacuse of errors during the process of making the dough?

Offline PentiumIIPizza

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Re: Dough deflates during cold fermentation?
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2019, 12:41:28 AM »
Oh OK.
I think you'll get better results if you proof after CF. At least, you cannot fail! When making "pizza in teglia", I CF overnight after mixing (the dough is made in the afternoon or evening), then the next day I take it out 4-5H before baking.  RT = 21~23°C, yeast = 0.5%, hydration 75~85%.
It you try let me know and take some pics!

I will try this the next time.

Should the dough be pressed out into the pan before CF?

Do you know if changing the order of CF and proofing at room temperature will have an effect on the taste?

Offline Yael

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Re: Dough deflates during cold fermentation?
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2019, 03:02:58 AM »
I will try this the next time.

Should the dough be pressed out into the pan before CF?

Do you know if changing the order of CF and proofing at room temperature will have an effect on the taste?

I proceed this way: after having made the dough, I store it in a rectangular tupperware, and then CF. The next day, I put the dough in the oiled pan and spread. If there's too much slap-back, I wait 10 min, and spread again.

If you change the order of CF and RTF I'm not sure it will affect the taste. Well, in theory any change in the procedure as well as in the formula could lead in a change in the final product, could it be texture or flavor, but there are some changes of which I cannot tell the difference  :-D
IMO you'll have a bigger difference if you make for instance a half-and-half 20H fermentation VS a half-and-half 6H fermentation, you know what I mean?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2019, 03:05:32 AM by Yael »
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Offline Yael

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Re: Dough deflates during cold fermentation?
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2019, 03:09:53 AM »
BTW, I know you're not trying to make "pizza in teglia", but both styles have some similarities anyway (proofing in an oiled pan), and you can check this link that a member posted on the forum a couple of days ago:
https://www.cooksillustrated.com/articles/1281-introducing-pizza-al-taglio
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Offline HansB

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Re: Dough deflates during cold fermentation?
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2019, 07:16:32 AM »
I will try this the next time.

Should the dough be pressed out into the pan before CF?

Do you know if changing the order of CF and proofing at room temperature will have an effect on the taste?

I agree with Yael. When I make a Detroit Style, I press the dough into the pan over about 30 minutes after mixing, then into CF. After CF I take it out to room temp to proof, top and bake.
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Offline Rolls

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Re: Dough deflates during cold fermentation?
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2019, 08:36:15 AM »
Quote from: Rolls
My guess would be that moving the dough to a colder environment decreases the pressure within the dough causing it to implode.


Does this mean that it's not a problem and I should expect it to happen? Or is it beacuse of errors during the process of making the dough?

In my opinion, it's both.  Your finished dough temperature at 83.3 F is rather high to begin with, setting the stage for rapid fermentation of the yeast.  You then pan proof the dough at room temperature for 4.5 hours until there is a significant increase in the dough volume.  I think your dough collapses when you subsequently move it to the fridge because of the decreased pressure within the air cells of the dough caused by the temperature change.  Try this simple experiment: Take an empty plastic water bottle (with the top screwed on) and place it in the freezer.  After a few minutes (or less) the bottle will be partially collapsed, much like your dough.  Physics 101.

I agree with everyone who is suggesting that the cold fermentation phase should precede the final room temperature phase.


Rolls
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Offline Yael

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Re: Dough deflates during cold fermentation?
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2019, 08:56:57 AM »
Rolls,

Your physics lesson makes a lot of sense. I never thought about it this way, but I always "felt" a long RTF before a CF wasn't the best choice (although I guess one can be looking for special result doing this way (which result, I don't know)...).
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Dough deflates during cold fermentation?
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2019, 09:09:46 AM »
The change in volume is directly proportional to a change in temperature (in degrees Kelvin) if pressure remains constant, so going from 80F (300K ) to 35F (275K) would result in about a 8% reduction in volume, AOTBE.
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Offline PentiumIIPizza

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Re: Dough deflates during cold fermentation?
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2019, 04:41:40 AM »
Next week I'm going to do the pizza again, but this time with CF first. Does the following procedure sound fine?

Flour (100%) (375 g/13.24 oz)
Water (55%)
ADY (0.2%)
Salt (2%)
Butter (6%)
Sugar (3%)
Dry Non-Fat Milk (3%)

I will mix the dough as before and try to reach a FDT of 75F, then oil the dough ball and place it in a plastic bag, before putting it in the fridge like described by Tom Lehmann in this post

Quote
..then immediately after mixing divide the dough into your desired weight pieces and form into balls, wipe the dough balls with salad oil and place into individual plastic bags. Twist the open end of the bag forming a pony tail and tuck the pony tail under the dough ball as you place it in the fridge.

After CF, I will let the dough, while still in bag, warm for an hour or so at room temperature till it reaches 55-60F, then unpack and press it out into an oil filled pan and let it sit a few hours until it fills the entire pan.

To fit my schedule, the dough will have to CF for about 65 hours at 41F.

Will 0.2% ADY (1/4 teaspoon for 375 g/13.24 oz flour) work for a CF (and the subsequently room temperature raise) at this length.

Thanks in advance.

Offline HansB

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Re: Dough deflates during cold fermentation?
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2019, 11:06:38 AM »
With all respect, I'd press it into the pan before CF. Then bring it to RT, let it rise, top, then bake.
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