Pizza Making Forum

Reference, Questions and Help => Dough Clinic => Topic started by: PizzaPassion on June 18, 2022, 11:11:21 AM

Title: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: PizzaPassion on June 18, 2022, 11:11:21 AM
Years ago I bought a five pound repack of All Trumps Bleached and Bromated flour. At the time I was a total rookie but I remember the flour made a dough exactly like what I was looking for. Then I became aware of the bromate issue and decided I wanted to stay aware from any flour that was bleached or bromated. I tried All Trumps with no bleach and bromate and it didn't perform nearly as well. So my question is are there any flours out there that are not bleached or bromated that will perform like All Trumps with bleach and bromate?
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: PizzaPassion on June 23, 2022, 05:39:51 AM
Anyone?
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: PaulTrap on June 23, 2022, 10:49:42 AM
I am by no means an expert.  But looking on the web. 

I found this info:

ascorbic acid (vitamin C), ADA (azodicarbonamide), potassium and calcium iodate, cysteine and glutathione (amino acids), enzymes and yeast derivatives.

These are all dough additives to replace Potassium Bromate. 

I think if you keep working with and adjusting your dough formula and dough management proceedure the non bleached unbromated flour will perform well for you.  I make my NY style, All Trumps unbleached un bromated with a 24hr poolish 40% of the flour, mix dough, Rt bulk ferment for 3 hr then scale and ball CF for 72 hrs. My DDT is 76-78 į F. 

I also use a low percentage yeast too. 

Hopefully someone with more expertise will chime in.
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: scott r on June 23, 2022, 11:13:27 AM
I would add a tiny amount of ascorbic acid and mix longer.  Do a series of stretch and folds spaced out at least 30 min apart after the initial machine or hand mixing. 
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: Pete-zza on June 23, 2022, 11:21:54 AM
Anyone?
PizzaPassion,

The bigger issue may be a convenient source for you where you do not need pay a fortune in shipping costs.

As a start, you may want to take a look at this General Mills document that shows their unbleached and unbromated flours:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/~/media/Files/Industry-Resources/Pizzeria/exploring-products/flour-portfolio.ashx

You might also take a look at the Bob's Red Mill unblelached unbromated bread flour at:

https://www.bobsredmill.com/shop/flours-and-meals/artisan-bread-flour.html

King Arthur also sells an unbleached unbromated high protein flour, at:

https://shop.kingarthurbaking.com/items/high-gluten-flour

There are also a lot of flour sources spread across the U.S. I see that you are in the Pittsburgh area. I don't know of any flour source near where you are but you might scan this list of sources I created to see if you spot anything:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.0 (the list starts at about the middle of the first post)

You might also take a look at this list of organic flours that are almost always unbromated:

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46311.msg464690#msg464690

Good luck. Maybe some other member besides scott r will come forward also to help you more specifically based on their experience.

Peter
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 23, 2022, 12:54:40 PM
It would help to know your formula and workflow.
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: 9slicePie on June 23, 2022, 12:59:23 PM
From what I understand, the bromate in the flour / pizza dough does not warrant [significant?] concern.
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: PizzaPassion on June 24, 2022, 06:08:52 AM
From what I understand, the bromate in the flour / pizza dough does not warrant [significant?] concern.
I've read about potassium bromate and I understand the concept that baking reduces potassium bromate to a harmless chemical but when I see many countries, including China where it seems anything goes, has outlawed potassium bromate that gives me reason for serious concern. Here is an article on bromate in flour.
https://www.livescience.com/36206-truth-potassium-bromate-food-additive.html
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: PizzaPassion on June 24, 2022, 06:32:28 AM
PizzaPassion,

The bigger issue may be a convenient source for you where you do not need pay a fortune in shipping costs.

As a start, you may want to take a look at this General Mills document that shows their unbleached and unbromated flours:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/~/media/Files/Industry-Resources/Pizzeria/exploring-products/flour-portfolio.ashx

You might also take a look at the Bob's Red Mill unblelached unbromated bread flour at:

https://www.bobsredmill.com/shop/flours-and-meals/artisan-bread-flour.html

King Arthur also sells an unbleached unbromated high protein flour, at:

https://shop.kingarthurbaking.com/items/high-gluten-flour

There are also a lot of flour sources spread across the U.S. I see that you are in the Pittsburgh area. I don't know of any flour source near where you are but you might scan this list of sources I created to see if you spot anything:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.0 (the list starts at about the middle of the first post)

You might also take a look at this list of organic flours that are almost always unbromated:

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46311.msg464690#msg464690

Good luck. Maybe some other member besides scott r will come forward also to help you more specifically based on their experience.

Peter
I recently purchased a bag of General Mills https://www.bakersauthority.com/products/di-primordine-farina-flour-pizza-flour-27-5lb-bag. Not super thrilled with the results. Tonight's pizza made with Bob's Red Mill Artisan Bread Flour which may be better suited for a thicker crust American style pizza in a 500 degree home oven.
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: 9slicePie on June 24, 2022, 10:51:46 AM
I've read about potassium bromate and I understand the concept that baking reduces potassium bromate to a harmless chemical but when I see many countries, including China where it seems anything goes, has outlawed potassium bromate that gives me reason for serious concern. Here is an article on bromate in flour.
https://www.livescience.com/36206-truth-potassium-bromate-food-additive.html

Again, the current conclusion I have drawn after reading up on this (on this website and elsewhere on the internet) is that, when it comes to bromate in flour / pizza dough, it's "nothing to lose sleep over".

Other's can chime in about this as well.
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 24, 2022, 11:26:35 AM
including China where it seems anything goes, has outlawed potassium bromate that gives me reason for serious concern.

Or maybe it's just a non-tariff way to restrict imports and increase the competitiveness of local products?
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: Pete-zza on June 24, 2022, 12:55:15 PM
When the AIB (American Institute of Baking) was closing down, I recalled that the AIB had prepared a document years ago directed to potassium bromate. That led me to see if the document was in the archives of the Wayback Machine. When I saw that it was, I made a copy of the link. Here it is:

https://web.archive.org/web/20130820221140/https://www.aibonline.org/press/SafeUsePotassiumBromate%2009_08.pdf

Peter
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: Elchimi on June 24, 2022, 10:22:34 PM
Planet Earth minus USA uses unbromated flour and itís been working quite ok overall for making good pizza. For me and my family we eat enough bromated pizza dough from our local pizza joints, donít need it at home though.
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: QwertyJuan on June 24, 2022, 11:01:33 PM
Pretty sure Tom answered this question before and I believe he did indicate that the amount of bromate used in the flour was NOT a concern after baking.
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: Elchimi on June 24, 2022, 11:08:48 PM
Pretty sure Tom answered this question before and I believe he did indicate that the amount of bromate used in the flour was NOT a concern after baking.
Depends on the bake
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: PizzaPassion on June 25, 2022, 06:36:04 AM
When the AIB (American Institute of Baking) was closing down, I recalled that the AIB had prepared a document years ago directed to potassium bromate. That led me to see if the document was in the archives of the Wayback Machine. When I saw that it was, I made a copy of the link. Here it is:

https://web.archive.org/web/20130820221140/https://www.aibonline.org/press/SafeUsePotassiumBromate%2009_08.pdf

Peter
Thanks Peter. I did read the document briefly. I saw a number of cautionary comments about proper handling, testing, amount used and baking temperature that it would give me pause before using it. No doubt we could look at the same glass of water and it's either half empty or half full. Why use it if you don't need to? If your local pizza shop made buyers aware that they were using a flour that was banned in 30 different countries do you think they'd sell many pizzas? I highly doubt it. I think it's a dirty little secret of the entire industry.
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: scott r on June 25, 2022, 09:55:02 AM
Sadly most operators are not even aware of it, so they blissfuly breathe it in every day when they are pouring that bag of flour into the mixer.  Its surprising how much flour becomes airborne dumping out a 50lb bag or two or three into your mixer.
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: RHawthorne on June 25, 2022, 10:11:38 AM
I recently purchased a bag of General Mills https://www.bakersauthority.com/products/di-primordine-farina-flour-pizza-flour-27-5lb-bag. Not super thrilled with the results. Tonight's pizza made with Bob's Red Mill Artisan Bread Flour which may be better suited for a thicker crust American style pizza in a 500 degree home oven.
I tried GM's 'Neapolitan' "00" flour last fall and I was not impressed at all. Maybe I should have given it more of a chance with different techniques, IDK. There was just nothing special at all about the dough I made with it. I don't know what's different with the Di Prim'Ordine vs the Neapolitan. But the Bob's Red Mill artisan bread flour is killer for me, my favorite bread flour by far.
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: RHawthorne on June 25, 2022, 10:19:11 AM
I would add a tiny amount of ascorbic acid and mix longer.  Do a series of stretch and folds spaced out at least 30 min apart after the initial machine or hand mixing.
I've thought about trying that, but I've never found a good source of information on exactly how much to use. I've heard that you can easily ruin dough by using too much, and that the necessary amount is so small it's almost impossible to measure at home, because the stuff is really powerful. Any advice on usage?
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: scott r on June 25, 2022, 10:43:12 AM
When formulating flours to sell where bromate is banned General Mills uses about .03-.04g of ascorbic acid for 1000g of flour.
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: PizzaPassion on June 25, 2022, 04:56:49 PM
I tried GM's 'Neapolitan' "00" flour last fall and I was not impressed at all. Maybe I should have given it more of a chance with different techniques, IDK. There was just nothing special at all about the dough I made with it. I don't know what's different with the Di Prim'Ordine vs the Neapolitan. But the Bob's Red Mill artisan bread flour is killer for me, my favorite bread flour by far.
Could you share your recipe for the Bob's RM Artisan? I'm also trying that. I have some of the Di Prim'Ordine and was not particularly impressed. I'm new here and don't know the protocol on sharing ingredients but I be happy to share some if you'd like.
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: PizzaPassion on June 25, 2022, 05:02:11 PM
Sadly most operators are not even aware of it, so they blissfuly breathe it in every day when they are pouring that bag of flour into the mixer.  Its surprising how much flour becomes airborne dumping out a 50lb bag or two or three into your mixer.
I did see one of the cautions was about breathing bromate dust. Even if the owner/operator is aware of the issue you can almost bet that the poor guy mixing the dough hasn't a clue.
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: Elchimi on June 25, 2022, 05:11:22 PM
My go to used to be Kyrol, itís similar to All Trumps and you can get it unbleached/unbromated at Costco Business. Also you can get unbleached/unbromated All Trumps at Shamrock but itís double the price than Kyrol.
Also quite good and my new favorite for home oven, NY style is Pivetti Professional rossa, a strong 00 from northern Italy.
Lots of very good alternatives to bromated flour
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: RHawthorne on June 25, 2022, 06:59:58 PM
Could you share your recipe for the Bob's RM Artisan? I'm also trying that. I have some of the Di Prim'Ordine and was not particularly impressed. I'm new here and don't know the protocol on sharing ingredients but I be happy to share some if you'd like.
I've used several different approaches with that flour. Lately, I've been returning my old methods I used to use in the past, where I mix it 50/50 with Italian "0" or "00" and knead the dough in the food processor, 58%-60% hydration, a few hours at RT, then a couple of days in the fridge. That method gets reliably good results. I've also done recipes with a poolish at 25% for 18 to 24 hours at RT, then mixing in the secondary ingredients (66% to 68% hydration) and throwing it straight in the fridge for 3 days. That method has probably gotten my best results, but I'm trying to work on cutting my fermentation time down a little bit.
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: gspinelli on June 26, 2022, 03:10:04 PM
There was a new video posted from the YouTuber Chainbaker on the use of ascorbic acid in dough. Not sure that it answers any questions related to pizza, but I like his experimental approach, so worth the watch:
 https://youtu.be/NA7Vq59igBw

Greg
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 26, 2022, 03:30:24 PM
Interesting. Thanks for posting!
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: QwertyJuan on June 26, 2022, 10:27:10 PM
Ardent Mills, here in Canada, add ascorbic acid to their All Purpose and Bread flours. I feel that the flour makes for an excellent pizza.
Title: Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
Post by: Jdsfunnelcake on June 30, 2022, 08:14:14 PM
Timely post - at least for me! I too picked up a re-pack ďtrialĒ of the all trumps b/b and was really impressed by it for my nyc style pies in my ooni. Iíve since killed the bag and didnít feel like paying extra for shipping again from penn-mac, so iím using the king arthur high gluten or sir lancealot i think it is this week. Not changing any variables in my recipe other than the flour so iím hoping for a similar outcome as the AT b/b with some ďcleanerĒ and more readily available flour.