Pizza al Taglio Progress

[tfox39]

I wanted to share a bit of my progress as well as reach out with a few questions I still have. Reading through this board has been super helpful, thanks to posts by antlife, rolls, yael, etc. Thanks to everyone here, I am now consistently getting pizza like the pictures below. I still have issues, of course, but have also come up with my own workarounds. But I would love to hopefully be able to work towards fixing these issues the proper way.

I work with this recipe, making slight adjustments here and there with the weather.

1 Ball 72hr CF + 6-12hrs RT          
Flour           345   (10% Semolina)   Manitaly Manitoba Type ‘0’ Flour (W330-350) + Paolo Mariani Durum Wheat Semolina Flour
HR (80%)   276      
Salt (2.5%)   8.625      
IDY (.23%)     0.7935      
EVOO (2%)   6.9      
         
Total   637.3185      with dough loss, I'm typically around 620 grams going into a 30x40 pan.


I typically only do 2 balls at most and I will mix by hand. I mix the IDY into the water (85f/29c) and then proceed to slowly work in all of the flour. Once joined, depending on the temperature (it gets very hot and humid here), I will let it sit for 10-30 minutes and mix in the oil, salt, and 10 grams of water. Let that sit for about 15 minutes and then I do 4 or so stretch and folds every 15 minutes. I feel like I don't really go too intense on the stretch and folds, and more so just do it gently until it looks pretty smooth. I cover it (zero oil at the base of the tub) and throw it in the fridge until I ball it maybe around the 50-55hr mark. I'll pull it out after 72 hrs for about 10 hours. When I'm ready to bake, I crank the oven to 550f/287c with a stone on the bottom rack. Dough gets dumped onto a bed of semolina, stretched out, and then transferred to the pan where it gets sauced. I bake with the pan on the stone for 10-12 minutes, pull the pizza (depending on my toppings), and add cheese and whatever other toppings. Then the pan goes to the top rack for about 10 minutes more. I pull the pizza out of the pan at this point and transfer it to the pizza stone for 2-3 minutes to finish the bottom of the crust. Total bake time is about 22 minutes.

Here are some of my issues.

- My "blue steel" pan is horrible and gives me trouble. Maybe it isn't the real deal, as it bends/pops in the oven like an aluminum pan would. My pizzas started sticking and I couldn't get it well seasoned. I didn't want to use oil so I instead used parchment paper and, as it always does, it worked incredibly. Pizza jumps out of the pan. Would love to either get the correct pan and/or learn how to properly season this thing so I don't get my pizza sticking.

- Even after sitting at RT for 10 hours or so before baking, the dough doesn't want to full stretch out as easily. It never wants to tear, but I have trouble hitting all the corners of the pan without it slowly pulling back to the center. Not a major issue, but would like to figure out how to get it to stretch out a little better.

- Tied in with the stretching, because I am trying my best to work the dough to fill the pan, I sometimes get slightly uneven pizza. Nothing crazy thin, but I am definitely not getting the crumb shown in the photo throughout the whole pizza.

- I have only tried doing a sourdough version once and the dough became a monster overnight so I had to turn it into "focaccia". It turned out very well, but I would like to figure out how to do a sourdough version of this. Is it possible to stretch the time to 48-72 hours with a starter? Will the dough hold up over that period for this style?

[Fiorot]

My first attempt and I am very happy.  I used oil on top and I feel it stopped the rise.   For a Sicilian pan you need more than a 700 g ball.  I am trying to figure how much more dough would be needed . 

[Yael]

I wanted to share a bit of my progress as well as reach out with a few questions I still have. Reading through this board has been super helpful, thanks to posts by antlife, rolls, yael, etc. Thanks to everyone here, I am now consistently getting pizza like the pictures below. I still have issues, of course, but have also come up with my own workarounds. But I would love to hopefully be able to work towards fixing these issues the proper way.

I work with this recipe, making slight adjustments here and there with the weather.

1 Ball 72hr CF + 6-12hrs RT          
Flour           345   (10% Semolina)   Manitaly Manitoba Type ‘0’ Flour (W330-350) + Paolo Mariani Durum Wheat Semolina Flour
HR (80%)   276      
Salt (2.5%)   8.625      
IDY (.23%)     0.7935      
EVOO (2%)   6.9      
         
Total   637.3185      with dough loss, I'm typically around 620 grams going into a 30x40 pan.


I typically only do 2 balls at most and I will mix by hand. I mix the IDY into the water (85f/29c) and then proceed to slowly work in all of the flour. Once joined, depending on the temperature (it gets very hot and humid here), I will let it sit for 10-30 minutes and mix in the oil, salt, and 10 grams of water. Let that sit for about 15 minutes and then I do 4 or so stretch and folds every 15 minutes. I feel like I don't really go too intense on the stretch and folds, and more so just do it gently until it looks pretty smooth. I cover it (zero oil at the base of the tub) and throw it in the fridge until I ball it maybe around the 50-55hr mark. I'll pull it out after 72 hrs for about 10 hours. When I'm ready to bake, I crank the oven to 550f/287c with a stone on the bottom rack. Dough gets dumped onto a bed of semolina, stretched out, and then transferred to the pan where it gets sauced. I bake with the pan on the stone for 10-12 minutes, pull the pizza (depending on my toppings), and add cheese and whatever other toppings. Then the pan goes to the top rack for about 10 minutes more. I pull the pizza out of the pan at this point and transfer it to the pizza stone for 2-3 minutes to finish the bottom of the crust. Total bake time is about 22 minutes.

It looks nice!!

Here are some of my issues.

- My "blue steel" pan is horrible and gives me trouble. Maybe it isn't the real deal, as it bends/pops in the oven like an aluminum pan would. My pizzas started sticking and I couldn't get it well seasoned. I didn't want to use oil so I instead used parchment paper and, as it always does, it worked incredibly. Pizza jumps out of the pan. Would love to either get the correct pan and/or learn how to properly season this thing so I don't get my pizza sticking.

I can't help you on this one... I would just suggest to add as much oil as needed.

- Even after sitting at RT for 10 hours or so before baking, the dough doesn't want to full stretch out as easily. It never wants to tear, but I have trouble hitting all the corners of the pan without it slowly pulling back to the center. Not a major issue, but would like to figure out how to get it to stretch out a little better.

I would lower the amount of manitoba flour... maybe no more than 10~20%?

- Tied in with the stretching, because I am trying my best to work the dough to fill the pan, I sometimes get slightly uneven pizza. Nothing crazy thin, but I am definitely not getting the crumb shown in the photo throughout the whole pizza.

Training, training, training... (I still have the same problem) (although the bigger the dough ball, the thicker the crust will be, of course).

- I have only tried doing a sourdough version once and the dough became a monster overnight so I had to turn it into "focaccia". It turned out very well, but I would like to figure out how to do a sourdough version of this. Is it possible to stretch the time to 48-72 hours with a starter? Will the dough hold up over that period for this style?

Just add less sourdough!? IMO with the right amount you can make exactly as when using yeast.

[tfox39]

Just add less sourdough!? IMO with the right amount you can make exactly as when using yeast.

Thanks for the input. For doing sourdough, I am a little lost as to where to start again on percentage as I never wrote down my only experiment. I am aiming for a longer ferment (72 hours, unless it is not advised with a starter). If using the predicted fermentation chart, it shows I could use 5% starter and ferment at 55F/13C for about 72 hours. Should I be using that chart with pizza al taglio? Any good starting point that you've done for a longer fermentation?

Thanks

[tfox39]

So I went with a trial of the above with 5% starter for 72 hours. I did not bother to take photos as it was nearly another complete disaster. When I balled the dough at around 60 hours, it felt pretty good, but visually it did not look like it was ready. I balled, let it go the full time, and then took it out the next morning at RT for 2-3 hours. I dumped the dough out and with one touch I knew it was a mess. It had no structure at all. I had to lay a pan on top of it and flip it into the pan, otherwise I would not have been able to lift it with  my hands. Couldn't even stretch it out all the way because it would have torn. It cooked normally but had a terrible texture. Was overly sour and had a gummy texture to it instead of light and airy.

I will give another test, maybe pulling the dough out earlier, even though visually it did not look ready from underneath.

[Yael]

Was it RTF?? 

I never tried CF above 48H with SD..

[tfox39]

Was it RTF?? 

I never tried CF above 48H with SD..

It was about 13C for 72. What is a good middle ground for doing a long sd ferment? Even for 48 hrs for al taglio.

[Yael]

It was about 13C for 72. What is a good middle ground for doing a long sd ferment? Even for 48 hrs for al taglio.

I don't know at which temperature SD has a very low activity/no activity so you can make a long fermentation; actually, I'm not even sure a long fermentation would be needed for SD as it already has the characteristics we're looking for when using yeast (acidity, flavor), but I'm not a SD expert, these are just my thoughts.
If I wanted to try a 72H SD dough anyway, I would still CF (2~4°C).

[gschnierow]

I had the same problem with my blue steel pan and tossed it. Trying to figure out what to get to replace it.

I've also had similar stretching issues--some areas become deflated, while some not at all.

Did you get answers, figure it out??

[tfox39]

I had the same problem with my blue steel pan and tossed it. Trying to figure out what to get to replace it.

I've also had similar stretching issues--some areas become deflated, while some not at all.

Did you get answers, figure it out??

I gave up on the pan and just use parchment paper. They sell precut ones that fit it perfectly, so it kinda has worked out nicely with that. As for the stretching, I can't quite remember how I was doing when I made this thread, but I find myself doing pretty well with the dough stretching now. I still have to work a little bit extra to get to the corners, but not much. I think I can attribute this to a longer ferment as well as doing my stretching and folding a lot better. I also am now doing about 72 hour ferment, cut and shape dough, then giving it about 12 more hours and then letting sit at room temp for about 5-8 hours (depending on room temp).

So one new thing I started doing, even for red pizzas, is I lay an oiled pan on top to simulate a steam chamber. I keep it on for ten minutes and pull it. With white pizzas/light topping pizzas, it works great and is a perfect way to get a super airy pizza. With red, it still gets airy, but obviously deflates a bit when you go to sauce it up. I only do this method now, but am still experimenting with it.

[RamirOk]

It was about 13C for 72. What is a good middle ground for doing a long sd ferment? Even for 48 hrs for al taglio.

For Sourdough I was just recently trying the same, 72hrs and is very hard to achieve good results. Is possible for 24 and 48hrs as you can see in the first page of the thread and in my last post I quote a past response of the dough doctor mentioning why is very hard to do very long fermentation’s with sourdough
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=66192.msg652637#msg652637

[merge03]

I use SD only in our various styles of pizza.  For both focaccia and al teglia I will use either 15% or 20% of total dough weight as contributed by the starter.   Though typically 20% is what I use.   I then ferment for almost 48hrs at 54-56F.   Works great.   Based on progress I pull the doughs out 4-6 hours before baking.

A lot will depend on finished dough temperature, and how well I was taking care of the initial starter mother.

My starter is 100%, and is built using 25% mother approx 12 hours in advance.
All pretty typical.
Hope this is helpful.

[Sapp]

15% for 48 hours at 55F has been my sweet spot. Whenever I tried to go longer and use less starter the dough was a mess.

Stupid question but have you tried Loyd pans? Nothing sticks to them, they don’t warp and you need zero oil.

[merge03]

I like the hard anodized Loyd pans a lot.  But they are not cheap.  They don’t stick when oiled and fermenting in the tray.  I also like our blue steel pans.  Both pan types require different techniques and produce different crusts.  I use our steel pans with and without parchment paper.  I prefer without paper, but do acknowledge that it takes quite a few bakes to even approach non-stick.  I find that wasting parchment paper bothers me more than carefully oiling the pans and eating the absorbed oil.  Commercially, the paper is likely cheaper than EV olive oil.  I find that rubbing the oil on ever square MM of the steel pan and it’s sides is critical to not sticking.  But my pans are only a couple years old, and I clean them a bit more than I should.  Certainly the parchment paper technique is way easier.  Where as the hard anodized Loyd pans are good to go from the first use.