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Author Topic: High volume brick coal Oven  (Read 802 times)

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Offline Pizzabobs143

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High volume brick coal Oven
« on: March 06, 2022, 09:04:45 PM »
Posted this in the shop thread but maybe yíall here have much more experience since itís related to Detroit style.

Hi guys opening up a shop with Detroit style pizza overseas! Itís kinda small so Iím concerned about having enough dough especially with massive fermentation times, 2nd proof ect.

Iíll be cooking them in a coal fired oven.

Wondering even what do high volume pizza places do doubt they have hundreds of pans, or enough dough for say 500 pizzas sitting in a freezer?

My thoughts:

1. Can I replace cold fermentation with a much shorter time period of room temperature? Or even faster cold fermentation times like 4 hours?

2. Is a 2nd proof in a pan needed? Can I just cook it directly in oven if I can stretch the dough properly?

3. Any methods of 2nd proofing dough outside of pan? Like typical round style pizzas? We used to press the dough out and pile them in a line and let them rise. Then transfer them into the pan at time of cooking? Obviously they wonít rise high like they do in a pan.

4. Par bake the dough and store in the fridge? Say 100-200 pieces at a time?

5. Can 2nd proof time be greatly diminished if I place pan in the oven for a few seconds? Then continue topping and cook?

6. Also what concerns can I have with a brick coal fired oven when cooking?

Iíve worked in a few pizza places before different types of round pies and have ran into issue of running out of last days dough. Can see this issue highly happening with Detroit style.

Anyway help is greatly appreciated in speeding the process up where you arenít losing much dough quality in terms of flavor, and not tying up hundreds of pans.

Thank you!

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: High volume brick coal Oven
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2022, 10:04:47 AM »
What oven are you using?
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Offline Pizzabobs143

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Re: High volume brick coal Oven
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2022, 05:15:43 PM »
What oven are you using?

Custom build brick oven thinking of using coal in it.

Offline Pizzabobs143

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Re: High volume brick coal Oven
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2022, 05:20:17 PM »
So after watching some hundreds of videos saw some where you need the dough, let it sit for 2 hours room temperature, stretch out the dough in pan let it sit another 30m or so.

So a total of 2.5 hours of making dough and cooking it, wondering obviously if there will be a big difference in taste?

Can also do cold fermentation 24-48 hours, then place the dough in the pans stretch a bit and let sit 30m and should be good to go it seems like?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: High volume brick coal Oven
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2022, 05:40:39 PM »
Coal needs airflow through a grate beneath the coal pile. Coal won't work well, if al all, in a wood-fired oven.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Pizzabobs143

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Re: High volume brick coal Oven
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2022, 06:11:44 PM »
Coal needs airflow through a grate beneath the coal pile. Coal won't work well, if al all, in a wood-fired oven.

Iíll have to check if it has one, fuel source is not the issue just scaling Detroit style production.

Offline deuxcv

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Re: High volume brick coal Oven
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2022, 02:54:54 PM »

Iíll be cooking them in a coal fired oven.

Wondering even what do high volume pizza places do doubt they have hundreds of pans, or enough dough for say 500 pizzas sitting in a freezer?

My thoughts:

1. Can I replace cold fermentation with a much shorter time period of room temperature? Or even faster cold fermentation times like 4 hours?

2. Is a 2nd proof in a pan needed? Can I just cook it directly in oven if I can stretch the dough properly?

3. Any methods of 2nd proofing dough outside of pan? Like typical round style pizzas? We used to press the dough out and pile them in a line and let them rise. Then transfer them into the pan at time of cooking? Obviously they wonít rise high like they do in a pan.

4. Par bake the dough and store in the fridge? Say 100-200 pieces at a time?

5. Can 2nd proof time be greatly diminished if I place pan in the oven for a few seconds? Then continue topping and cook?

6. Also what concerns can I have with a brick coal fired oven when cooking?

Iíve worked in a few pizza places before different types of round pies and have ran into issue of running out of last days dough. Can see this issue highly happening with Detroit style.

Anyway help is greatly appreciated in speeding the process up where you arenít losing much dough quality in terms of flavor, and not tying up hundreds of pans.

Thank you!

there's no way to avoid needing a bunch of pans unless you develop a dough that doesn't need a proof in a pan. angelos's pizzeria in south philly makes a pan pizza (not DSP) that doesn't proof in a pan and gets fantastic results, but his dough has a rather complicated and long fermentation process. it's very high in hydration and has such a lovely gentle fermentation that it's very extensible and easy to shape to the pan without disrupting the gas pockets too much and it's just waiting to jump into action. but dsp in any traditional process is gonna need a lot of pans if parbaking ahead of time or baking to order.

as for fermentation schedule, ask 100 pizzerias and you'll get 100 different ways of getting from mixer to table. the fermentation isn't rocket science, just need to understand that its primary factors are time, temp and amount/type of yeast. change one variable the others needs change. warmer, you can use less yeast and shorter time. more yeast, you can go shorter and/or colder. permutations are infinite. faster permutations will be at the expeense of more developed flavor and may leave you with a yeastier aroma. i would do a bulk ferment in a tub, then ball the dough for a cold ferment in stacking dough trays, then before bake, press into pan and proof. from there you can top and bake or parbake and wrap for use later in service.

if you're always rockin and can predict need throughout service, skip the parbak and go straight from proofed dough to making pizza. if demand is unpredictable, i venture i'd go the the parbake route. if i had a lot of refer space, i'd consider/try putting proofed pans with dough in the cooler to use from the cold proofed state.

i wouldn't keep the parbake more than a day and a half.

wood is HOT and unpredictable, so you might be better off with a parbake, as it'll be hard to get a thorough and consistent bake in a wood oven if cooking from raw dough. coal is nasty, toxic and wouldn't want it burning next to my food. and it's even hotter than wood, so above comments are even more critical.

with parbake, you'll want to figure out techniques to minimize shrinkage of the finished product and too much shrinkage will result in too much cheese falling in the crack.

there's no one way to do things. practice practice practice and find a way to make it work for your equipment, time and space limitations. if it drifts afar from what dsp is, just make it your own style and call them square pies.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: High volume brick coal Oven
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2022, 03:51:28 PM »
Quote
coal is nasty, toxic and wouldn't want it burning next to my food. and it's even hotter than wood, so above comments are even more critical.

This is actually not true. Anthracite coal is neither nasty nor toxic, and like wood, you can run a coal oven at a wide range of temperatures. Running a coal oven can be trickier than a wood oven however.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Pizzabobs143

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Re: High volume brick coal Oven
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2022, 05:20:12 AM »
there's no way to avoid needing a bunch of pans unless you develop a dough that doesn't need a proof in a pan. angelos's pizzeria in south philly makes a pan pizza (not DSP) that doesn't proof in a pan and gets fantastic results, but his dough has a rather complicated and long fermentation process. it's very high in hydration and has such a lovely gentle fermentation that it's very extensible and easy to shape to the pan without disrupting the gas pockets too much and it's just waiting to jump into action. but dsp in any traditional process is gonna need a lot of pans if parbaking ahead of time or baking to order.

as for fermentation schedule, ask 100 pizzerias and you'll get 100 different ways of getting from mixer to table. the fermentation isn't rocket science, just need to understand that its primary factors are time, temp and amount/type of yeast. change one variable the others needs change. warmer, you can use less yeast and shorter time. more yeast, you can go shorter and/or colder. permutations are infinite. faster permutations will be at the expeense of more developed flavor and may leave you with a yeastier aroma. i would do a bulk ferment in a tub, then ball the dough for a cold ferment in stacking dough trays, then before bake, press into pan and proof. from there you can top and bake or parbake and wrap for use later in service.

if you're always rockin and can predict need throughout service, skip the parbak and go straight from proofed dough to making pizza. if demand is unpredictable, i venture i'd go the the parbake route. if i had a lot of refer space, i'd consider/try putting proofed pans with dough in the cooler to use from the cold proofed state.

i wouldn't keep the parbake more than a day and a half.

wood is HOT and unpredictable, so you might be better off with a parbake, as it'll be hard to get a thorough and consistent bake in a wood oven if cooking from raw dough. coal is nasty, toxic and wouldn't want it burning next to my food. and it's even hotter than wood, so above comments are even more critical.

with parbake, you'll want to figure out techniques to minimize shrinkage of the finished product and too much shrinkage will result in too much cheese falling in the crack.

there's no one way to do things. practice practice practice and find a way to make it work for your equipment, time and space limitations. if it drifts afar from what dsp is, just make it your own style and call them square pies.

Anymore info on Angelos dough recipe maybe? I accidentally made some the other day I think when I over hydrated a recipie the dough was super sticky and stretchy.

Anyway yeah like you said basically experimentation is key

Offline deuxcv

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Re: High volume brick coal Oven
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2022, 02:31:13 PM »
i shouldn't give you the recipe because it was part of a charged for class and that's part of the terms. the class was through slowrisepizza.com and the class should be available "on demand" at some point. also... angelo's also has a bread/sandwich class coming up soon if that's of interest.

what i will say is the formula is about 70% hydration and uses a poolish. all the yeast in the formula is in the poolish, no yeast added to final dough mix. the formula has a ridiculously low amount of yeast, but compensated for with his extended RT and CT fermentation. also of note is he has a 55F walkin for his CT fermentation which is colder than room temp but significantly warmer than most coolers. all this together creates an incredibly slow and gentle fermentation. the yeast % is .01% fresh yeast which when converted to IDY is about .003% (so just under 2g IDY for 60k flour). yes, the decimal places and math are right.

poolish ferments for 24 h @ RT
after mix RT bulk ferment for for 2h then moved to walking with a couple s+f as bulk gets down to cooler temp.
CT bulk ferment in 55F walkin for 24h
ball dough and return to cooler for another 24h CT @55F

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Offline Pizzabobs143

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Re: High volume brick coal Oven
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2022, 07:44:15 AM »
From my current experiments, and even reading a copycat Pizza Hut recipe from a known chef.

His conclusion was 4 hour rise for the dough and about 2 hour rise for the 2nd proof.

What Iíve personally noticed is the same at about 2-4 hours and directly into the pan, as long as you can stretch the dough correctly you can literally insta cook it and it gets the best fluffy rise.

Iíve also tried 2nd rise fully, then refrigerating up to a day when needed but that seems to get inferior results too.

If the temp is too high the dough just proofs then deflates, also if too low seems like the coldness maybe kills the yeast.

Iím currently at 6C fridge what is the proper temperature to store 2nd risen dough?

I mean the results arenít terrible but not optimal.

Offline Pizzabobs143

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Re: High volume brick coal Oven
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2022, 11:12:37 AM »
Also how long can a par bake last in the fridge? Thinking about plastic wrapping a bunch or putting them in an air tight bucket.

Can they also go from frozen right into the pan? Not that dough into the pan and letting it sit for 15m isnít bad.

But seems like par bake would be easier to manage as opposed managing dough, and you can also get that crazy artistic wall of cheese.

Offline deuxcv

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Re: High volume brick coal Oven
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2022, 03:29:34 PM »
From my current experiments, and even reading a copycat Pizza Hut recipe from a known chef.

His conclusion was 4 hour rise for the dough and about 2 hour rise for the 2nd proof.

What Iíve personally noticed is the same at about 2-4 hours and directly into the pan, as long as you can stretch the dough correctly you can literally insta cook it and it gets the best fluffy rise.

Iíve also tried 2nd rise fully, then refrigerating up to a day when needed but that seems to get inferior results too.

If the temp is too high the dough just proofs then deflates, also if too low seems like the coldness maybe kills the yeast.

Iím currently at 6C fridge what is the proper temperature to store 2nd risen dough?

I mean the results arenít terrible but not optimal.

there's no right or wrong answer to any of your questions about time and temp. dough fermentation is all a balance of time, temp and amount of leavening. to a lesser degree hydration. change one factor and the other may need to be adjusted. ask 100 pizza makers and you'll get 100 different answers. your shop temp, flour temp water temp, type and amount of leavening will all be unique to you and your shop. personally i'm a proponent of using small amounts of leavening with a longer fermentation. if space and conditions don't allow this, then you will find a balance that works for you.

refrigeration temps don't kill yeast, it just puts it to sleep. its the bacteria and enzymes that are working in the refer temps, developing a more flavorful dough, not the yeast.

in my upcoming kitchen remodel, we are putting in a walkin refrigerator just for dough that will be around 10c (50-55f) that will keep the yeast ever so gently active for a 24 hour refrigerated fermentation.

Offline Pizzabobs143

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Re: High volume brick coal Oven
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2022, 04:11:26 PM »
there's no right or wrong answer to any of your questions about time and temp. dough fermentation is all a balance of time, temp and amount of leavening. to a lesser degree hydration. change one factor and the other may need to be adjusted. ask 100 pizza makers and you'll get 100 different answers. your shop temp, flour temp water temp, type and amount of leavening will all be unique to you and your shop. personally i'm a proponent of using small amounts of leavening with a longer fermentation. if space and conditions don't allow this, then you will find a balance that works for you.

refrigeration temps don't kill yeast, it just puts it to sleep. its the bacteria and enzymes that are working in the refer temps, developing a more flavorful dough, not the yeast.

in my upcoming kitchen remodel, we are putting in a walkin refrigerator just for dough that will be around 10c (50-55f) that will keep the yeast ever so gently active for a 24 hour refrigerated fermentation.

Iím noticing after the 2nd rise if I refrigerate pans the most they last is like 24hrs after that they kinda lose their spring and donít blow up in the oven.

Fridge is around 6C. Thinking of just skipping refrigerating after the 2nd rise. And just always having 5-10 pans at hand with dough ready.

Given Iíve noticed even a 15m 2nd rise is good enough when I stretch the dough balls. And the balls can easily last a few days.

Offline Pizzabobs143

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Re: High volume brick coal Oven
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2022, 03:14:29 PM »
Was reading something saying after the 2nd rise you can refrigerate the dough and keep it ready but noticing thatís not the case.

Does anybody refrigerate after 2nd rise?

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