5-Minute Plain New York on Steel

[jasonmolinari]

You’re basically adjusting the oven’s calibration. Making it think it’s 35 deg lower than it really is, forcing it to run longer.
I’ve found it helps get a bit more heat into the steel. It’s a good home trick

[[email protected]]

You’re basically adjusting the oven’s calibration. Making it think it’s 35 deg lower than it really is, forcing it to run longer.
I’ve found it helps get a bit more heat into the steel. It’s a good home trick

It is a good trick, but proceed with caution. About a year or so ago, I discovered I could do that in my whirlpool electric range. Worked great but after a few bakes it burned out the temperature sensor. Replaced that and after a few more the inner glass pane on the oven door blew out. Oven still works fine. Have replaced temperature again since, but don’t think I’ve tinkered with calibration setting since second thermostat replacement.

[Cheazy E]

It is a good trick, but proceed with caution. About a year or so ago, I discovered I could do that in my whirlpool electric range. Worked great but after a few bakes it burned out the temperature sensor. Replaced that and after a few more the inner glass pane on the oven door blew out. Oven still works fine. Have replaced temperature again since, but don’t think I’ve tinkered with calibration setting since second thermostat replacement.

I like to live dangerously. (Good looking out!)

[RHawthorne]

210 and 100% barley!

Are you sure you're using diastatic malt extract, and not confusing a Lovibond rating for a Lintner rating? They both start with an 'L' and people sometimes get them confused. A Lovibond rating indicates the darkness of the malt; it has nothing to do with it's diastatic power. I've never even heard of a Lintner rating that high. Also, as far as I understand it, even in the brewing world, a Lintner rating indicates a malted grain's power to self-convert, and that typically refers mostly to barley, not wheat or other grains.

[Cheazy E]

Are you sure you're using diastatic malt extract, and not confusing a Lovibond rating for a Lintner rating?

Here are the specs. It does say 210 degrees. To be honest, I’m not very familiar with the L rating. I just looked for an organic diastatic malt with no additives!

[RHawthorne]

Here are the specs. It does say 210 degrees. To be honest, I’m not very familiar with the L rating. I just looked for an organic diastatic malt with no additives!

Wow, that's incredible! Or maybe it's not. I haven't been brewing beer for a good 8 years now, so maybe this is something that's been the norm for a while and I just didn't know it. That spec sheet doesn't say if it comes from 2 row or 6 row barley, but I would guess it must be 6 row to have that much diastatic power. I recently dug out an old Northern Brewer gift card I forgot I had from years ago, and now I'm thinking I should see if they carry a product like this.

[Cheazy E]

Wow, that's incredible! Or maybe it's not. I haven't been brewing beer for a good 8 years now, so maybe this is something that's been the norm for a while and I just didn't know it. That spec sheet doesn't say if it comes from 2 row or 6 row barley, but I would guess it must be 6 row to have that much diastatic power. I recently dug out an old Northern Brewer gift card I forgot I had from years ago, and now I'm thinking I should see if they carry a product like this.

Well, this question led me to search for a more satisfying answer during lunch today, and unsurprisingly, that search led me right back here.

From the site’s glossary:

“DIASTATIC MALT
A barley malt commonly used in flours to increase the extraction of sugars from the flours for use as food for the yeast during fermentation and to increase the residual sugars in the dough at the time of baking to promote increased crust browning. The diastatic malt is produced from barley that has been sprouted, dried and ground into flour. The diastatic malt works through enzymatic activity (it provides additional alpha-amylase) to release sugar from the damaged starch molecules of flour. Diastatic malt is available in both dry and liquid form. The amount of diastatic malt to use should not be so excessive as to cause the dough after mixing to be slack or sticky inasmuch as this can result in a gummy crumb in the baked crust. There are also forms of diastatic malt, sometimes called low diastatic malt blends that, in addition to including barley malt, also include a form of sugar (usually dextrose) and wheat flour. These blends have degrees Lintner values that are considerably lower than 100 percent diastatic malts, which typically have Lintner degrees values of around 200. See, also, LINTNER VALUE.

LINTNER VALUE
A measure of the degree of enzymatic activity (alpha amylase enzyme) of a diastatic malt or diastatic malt blend. The measure of enzymatic activity is stated in degrees Lintner. A pure malt, in the form of a cereal barley malt flour without addition of other ingredients as are used with diastatic malt blends (more below), can have a typical degrees Lintner value of about 200–210L. Blends of diastatic malt, which typically also include a form of sugar (usually dextrose) and a wheat flour carrier, can have typical degrees Lintner values of 100L, 60L and 20L, with the 60L and 20L values being the most common among the lower degrees Lintner values. The latter two blends are often called low diastatic malts, or LDMs.”

So, the LDMs seem to be just pure barley cut with sugar and flour. Which I think means two things. One, at 2%, I am probably overdoing it by a fair bit by using pure barley malt. Two, it may be best to use pure malt and to “cut it” yourself simply by reducing the amount used then it is to go with a brand that effectively is adding their own fillers to the product to lower the enzymatic performance of the malt.

Likely not a negligible difference in quality for homemade pizza given the scale, but perhaps interesting.

[RHawthorne]

Well, this question led me to search for a more satisfying answer during lunch today, and unsurprisingly, that search led me right back here.

From the site’s glossary:

“DIASTATIC MALT
A barley malt commonly used in flours to increase the extraction of sugars from the flours for use as food for the yeast during fermentation and to increase the residual sugars in the dough at the time of baking to promote increased crust browning. The diastatic malt is produced from barley that has been sprouted, dried and ground into flour. The diastatic malt works through enzymatic activity (it provides additional alpha-amylase) to release sugar from the damaged starch molecules of flour. Diastatic malt is available in both dry and liquid form. The amount of diastatic malt to use should not be so excessive as to cause the dough after mixing to be slack or sticky inasmuch as this can result in a gummy crumb in the baked crust. There are also forms of diastatic malt, sometimes called low diastatic malt blends that, in addition to including barley malt, also include a form of sugar (usually dextrose) and wheat flour. These blends have degrees Lintner values that are considerably lower than 100 percent diastatic malts, which typically have Lintner degrees values of around 200. See, also, LINTNER VALUE.

LINTNER VALUE
A measure of the degree of enzymatic activity (alpha amylase enzyme) of a diastatic malt or diastatic malt blend. The measure of enzymatic activity is stated in degrees Lintner. A pure malt, in the form of a cereal barley malt flour without addition of other ingredients as are used with diastatic malt blends (more below), can have a typical degrees Lintner value of about 200–210L. Blends of diastatic malt, which typically also include a form of sugar (usually dextrose) and a wheat flour carrier, can have typical degrees Lintner values of 100L, 60L and 20L, with the 60L and 20L values being the most common among the lower degrees Lintner values. The latter two blends are often called low diastatic malts, or LDMs.”

So, the LDMs seem to be just pure barley cut with sugar and flour. Which I think means two things. One, at 2%, I am probably overdoing it by a fair bit by using pure barley malt. Two, it may be best to use pure malt and to “cut it” yourself simply by reducing the amount used then it is to go with a brand that effectively is adding their own fillers to the product to lower the enzymatic performance of the malt.

Likely not a negligible difference in quality for homemade pizza given the scale, but perhaps interesting.

Non-diastatic malt is always an option, too. I've been keeping dry malt extract of both barley and wheat around for a while. I also occasionally use straight amylase enzyme powder when I'm making bread with grains such as rye or soft Italian wheat that don't have a lot of inherent enzymatic activity and I want to have a usable dough in a few hours. I have to correct you on the part about LDM, though. It's not powdered barley cut with sugar. It is sugar (maltose), derived from malted barley, although I guess some products of that type might also have some additional sugar mixed in. At 2%, you might be overdoing a little bit, but maybe not. It depends on what kind of flour you're using. I typically use all American hard wheat flour, or a 50/50 blend of that type mixed with Italian "0" or "00" flour, and I don't experience any problems with that amount. But you should be aware that most any American hard wheat flour (which I would say comprises at least 75% of what gets used for pizza production in America) already has malted barley flour in it, which isn't a form of sugar, but turns into sugar when it's mixed with water and left to sit.
 So yeah, using too much additional sugar of any kind when you're already using a flour with an inherent source of sugar in it can be overdoing it. If you look at the pizza dough recipes on the packaging of most any bread flour or all purpose flour you buy in America, they pretty much never include additional sugar, because they've already incorporated enough malted barley powder into their flour that they don't think additional sugar is necessary. I'm not saying that these millers are necessarily master pizza dough formulators, but that tells you something about how they intend their product to be used.

[Cheazy E]

Non-diastatic malt is always an option, too. I've been keeping dry malt extract of both barley and wheat around for a while. I also occasionally use straight amylase enzyme powder when I'm making bread with grains such as rye or soft Italian wheat that don't have a lot of inherent enzymatic activity and I want to have a usable dough in a few hours. I have to correct you on the part about LDM, though. It's not powdered barley cut with sugar. It is sugar (maltose), derived from malted barley, although I guess some products of that type might also have some additional sugar mixed in.

Most of the brands I see online use Dextrose! Safe bet it’s wheat derived. King Arthur’s “Diastatic Malt Powder” appears to just be straight up bread flour with some cane sugar added.

“Unbleached Enriched Flour (wheat flour, malted barley flour, niacin, educed iron, thiamin mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid, malted barley flour, cane sugar).”

In any case, gonna roll with 1% Breadtopia diastatic malt, no sugar and see what the adjustment yields!

[9slicePie]

In any case, gonna roll with 1% Breadtopia diastatic malt, no sugar and see what the adjustment yields!

Keep us posted.

[TXCraig1]

In any case, gonna roll with 1% Breadtopia diastatic malt, no sugar and see what the adjustment yields!

The technical term for that much DMP is "astronomical." I suspect you'll end up with a liquid dough fairly quickly. Breadtopia malt is pure 210 degree strength. 1% is approximately 52X what the Dough Doc recommended as a starting point and a full 2X what Breadtopia says is the max you should use: "In Baker’s Percentage terms, do not use more than .5% by weight of total flour." https://breadtopia.com/store/organic-diastatic-barley-malt-powder/

[Cheazy E]

The technical term for that much DMP is "astronomical." I suspect you'll end up with a liquid dough fairly quickly. Breadtopia malt is pure 210 degree strength. 1% is approximately 52X what the Dough Doc recommended as a starting point and a full 2X what Breadtopia says is the max you should use: "In Baker’s Percentage terms, do not use more than .5% by weight of total flour." https://breadtopia.com/store/organic-diastatic-barley-malt-powder/

Huh. Well, I already have my flour blended up, so it should at least make for a fun exercise in astronomical excess!

This is the second time I’ve used the Breadtopia malt and the previous time I went with 2% AND sugar. The result is the first post in this thread. In terms of dough consistency and handling, I didn’t notice any material difference between this formulation and past pizzas with similar hydration. Post bake was excellent, as well. Would cold fermentation make the difference? Seems unlikely, but it was in the fridge for 48 hours after the bulk rest.

Fun!

[TXCraig1]

Maybe they have lower concentration products not listed on their website. Where did you buy it?

[Cheazy E]

Maybe they have lower concentration products not listed on their website. Where did you buy it?

From their site! Confirmed this is the only dry malt they sell. Pic attached.

Good news is that I was looking to keep the browning in check and this has a high likelihood of being the culprit!

Bad news is that I was planning on a longer room temperature proof for this week’s dough, so if the cold fermentation played a role in muting the effect last time around, then I may be working with a gelatinous dough blob in short order.

Pizza dough is fascinating!

[Pizza_Not_War]

I use Breadtopia malt in higher than recommended quantity with long cold sourdough ferments without turning my dough into mush. Don't believe what you read, test and test until you find what works for you.

[Cheazy E]

I use Breadtopia malt in higher than recommended quantity with long cold sourdough ferments without turning my dough into mush. Don't believe what you read, test and test until you find what works for you.

This is pretty much 91.3% of the fun for me! Working towards mastering the ingredients, recipes, methods, tools, and techniques to make incremental improvements across lots of different pizza styles. It’s wild what you can do with the same set of basic ingredients.

[[email protected]]

I like to live dangerously. (Good looking out!)

  Cheers to that!

Edit: Very interesting thread. Interesting reading on diastatic malt. Took a look at mine and indeed, dextrose and flour added.

[Cheazy E]

Results! 1% Pure Columbian grade uncut Diastatic Malt (aka Breadtopia 210 Lintner). No sugar. Oven running 565 degrees Fahrenheit. 1/4” steel was clocking 620 degrees Fahrenheit on launch.

450 gram dough ball. 62% hydration. 2.5% salt. 1% oil.

6 minutes on the nose. Broiler for 2 minutes, but may pull back a bit next go round.

Happy with the results. Retained the super crispy base. Juicy sauce. Flavor packed cheese with a pretty solid melt.

[Cheazy E]

Experimenting a bit more with the full strength diastatic malt (Breadtopia 210 Lintner) at 2%. Again, no sugar. Oven running 585 degrees Fahrenheit, broiler on full for the first two minutes. 5 minute total bake time.

450 gram dough ball. 60% hydration. 3% salt. 2% oil. 1/4 gram IDY. Ended up cold fermenting 24 hours longer than my target, but even still, I’m going to increase the yeast slightly going forward.

There is a pronounced handling difference between the CT and RT doughs with this malt, and indeed, the dough really softened with longer room temp fermentation. It felt much like a higher hydration dough would. Majority cold temp (I bulk for five hours at RT), I noted no meaningful difference. I haven’t experimented at all with same day.

Flavor and crisp are very nice. Char is there, but not overbearing. Post bake, the finished pizza remains exceptionally light, crisp, but not stiff. This pizza did not produce a crack at the fold.

Cheers! Hope you’re all eating well this weekend.

[Cheazy E]

Same dough, baked at 565 for six minutes running the broiler for two and change at the tail end of the bake. Used a pinch technique for the crust to take the sauce and cheese a bit further to the edge. The sauce is thinly milled Alta Cucina and it marries superbly with the Grande East Coast blend.

Hand crushed Calabrian oregano post bake.

This pizza is very crispy, while still remaining light and foldable. Cracks at the crust and down about two and a half inches into the slice.

I still don’t know what to make of the difference in malt that I’m seeing in my pizzas compared to other people’s experience, but for my ideal pizza, the 210 Lintner Breadtopia malt is a winner.