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Author Topic: 5-Minute Plain New York on Steel  (Read 1095 times)

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Offline jasonmolinari

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Re: 5-Minute Plain New York on Steel
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2022, 03:17:05 PM »
Youíre basically adjusting the ovenís calibration. Making it think itís 35 deg lower than it really is, forcing it to run longer.
Iíve found it helps get a bit more heat into the steel. Itís a good home trick

Offline [email protected]

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Re: 5-Minute Plain New York on Steel
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2022, 12:12:41 AM »
Youíre basically adjusting the ovenís calibration. Making it think itís 35 deg lower than it really is, forcing it to run longer.
Iíve found it helps get a bit more heat into the steel. Itís a good home trick

It is a good trick, but proceed with caution. About a year or so ago, I discovered I could do that in my whirlpool electric range. Worked great but after a few bakes it burned out the temperature sensor. Replaced that and after a few more the inner glass pane on the oven door blew out. Oven still works fine. Have replaced temperature again since, but donít think Iíve tinkered with calibration setting since second thermostat replacement.
Dean

Offline Cheazy E

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Re: 5-Minute Plain New York on Steel
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2022, 12:42:14 AM »
It is a good trick, but proceed with caution. About a year or so ago, I discovered I could do that in my whirlpool electric range. Worked great but after a few bakes it burned out the temperature sensor. Replaced that and after a few more the inner glass pane on the oven door blew out. Oven still works fine. Have replaced temperature again since, but donít think Iíve tinkered with calibration setting since second thermostat replacement.

I like to live dangerously. (Good looking out!)

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: 5-Minute Plain New York on Steel
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2022, 11:26:39 AM »
210 and 100% barley!
Are you sure you're using diastatic malt extract, and not confusing a Lovibond rating for a Lintner rating? They both start with an 'L' and people sometimes get them confused. A Lovibond rating indicates the darkness of the malt; it has nothing to do with it's diastatic power. I've never even heard of a Lintner rating that high. Also, as far as I understand it, even in the brewing world, a Lintner rating indicates a malted grain's power to self-convert, and that typically refers mostly to barley, not wheat or other grains.
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Offline Cheazy E

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Re: 5-Minute Plain New York on Steel
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2022, 11:48:02 AM »
Are you sure you're using diastatic malt extract, and not confusing a Lovibond rating for a Lintner rating?

Here are the specs. It does say 210 degrees. To be honest, Iím not very familiar with the L rating. I just looked for an organic diastatic malt with no additives!

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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: 5-Minute Plain New York on Steel
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2022, 12:15:14 PM »
Here are the specs. It does say 210 degrees. To be honest, Iím not very familiar with the L rating. I just looked for an organic diastatic malt with no additives!
Wow, that's incredible! Or maybe it's not. I haven't been brewing beer for a good 8 years now, so maybe this is something that's been the norm for a while and I just didn't know it. That spec sheet doesn't say if it comes from 2 row or 6 row barley, but I would guess it must be 6 row to have that much diastatic power. I recently dug out an old Northern Brewer gift card I forgot I had from years ago, and now I'm thinking I should see if they carry a product like this.
If we're not questioning the reason for our existence, then what the hell are we doing here?!

Offline Cheazy E

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Re: 5-Minute Plain New York on Steel
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2022, 04:08:54 PM »
Wow, that's incredible! Or maybe it's not. I haven't been brewing beer for a good 8 years now, so maybe this is something that's been the norm for a while and I just didn't know it. That spec sheet doesn't say if it comes from 2 row or 6 row barley, but I would guess it must be 6 row to have that much diastatic power. I recently dug out an old Northern Brewer gift card I forgot I had from years ago, and now I'm thinking I should see if they carry a product like this.

Well, this question led me to search for a more satisfying answer during lunch today, and unsurprisingly, that search led me right back here. ;)

From the siteís glossary:

ďDIASTATIC MALT
A barley malt commonly used in flours to increase the extraction of sugars from the flours for use as food for the yeast during fermentation and to increase the residual sugars in the dough at the time of baking to promote increased crust browning. The diastatic malt is produced from barley that has been sprouted, dried and ground into flour. The diastatic malt works through enzymatic activity (it provides additional alpha-amylase) to release sugar from the damaged starch molecules of flour. Diastatic malt is available in both dry and liquid form. The amount of diastatic malt to use should not be so excessive as to cause the dough after mixing to be slack or sticky inasmuch as this can result in a gummy crumb in the baked crust. There are also forms of diastatic malt, sometimes called low diastatic malt blends that, in addition to including barley malt, also include a form of sugar (usually dextrose) and wheat flour. These blends have degrees Lintner values that are considerably lower than 100 percent diastatic malts, which typically have Lintner degrees values of around 200. See, also, LINTNER VALUE.

LINTNER VALUE
A measure of the degree of enzymatic activity (alpha amylase enzyme) of a diastatic malt or diastatic malt blend. The measure of enzymatic activity is stated in degrees Lintner. A pure malt, in the form of a cereal barley malt flour without addition of other ingredients as are used with diastatic malt blends (more below), can have a typical degrees Lintner value of about 200Ė210L. Blends of diastatic malt, which typically also include a form of sugar (usually dextrose) and a wheat flour carrier, can have typical degrees Lintner values of 100L, 60L and 20L, with the 60L and 20L values being the most common among the lower degrees Lintner values. The latter two blends are often called low diastatic malts, or LDMs.Ē

So, the LDMs seem to be just pure barley cut with sugar and flour. Which I think means two things. One, at 2%, I am probably overdoing it by a fair bit by using pure barley malt. Two, it may be best to use pure malt and to ďcut itĒ yourself simply by reducing the amount used then it is to go with a brand that effectively is adding their own fillers to the product to lower the enzymatic performance of the malt.

Likely not a negligible difference in quality for homemade pizza given the scale, but perhaps interesting.

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: 5-Minute Plain New York on Steel
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2022, 11:41:08 PM »
Well, this question led me to search for a more satisfying answer during lunch today, and unsurprisingly, that search led me right back here. ;)

From the siteís glossary:

ďDIASTATIC MALT
A barley malt commonly used in flours to increase the extraction of sugars from the flours for use as food for the yeast during fermentation and to increase the residual sugars in the dough at the time of baking to promote increased crust browning. The diastatic malt is produced from barley that has been sprouted, dried and ground into flour. The diastatic malt works through enzymatic activity (it provides additional alpha-amylase) to release sugar from the damaged starch molecules of flour. Diastatic malt is available in both dry and liquid form. The amount of diastatic malt to use should not be so excessive as to cause the dough after mixing to be slack or sticky inasmuch as this can result in a gummy crumb in the baked crust. There are also forms of diastatic malt, sometimes called low diastatic malt blends that, in addition to including barley malt, also include a form of sugar (usually dextrose) and wheat flour. These blends have degrees Lintner values that are considerably lower than 100 percent diastatic malts, which typically have Lintner degrees values of around 200. See, also, LINTNER VALUE.

LINTNER VALUE
A measure of the degree of enzymatic activity (alpha amylase enzyme) of a diastatic malt or diastatic malt blend. The measure of enzymatic activity is stated in degrees Lintner. A pure malt, in the form of a cereal barley malt flour without addition of other ingredients as are used with diastatic malt blends (more below), can have a typical degrees Lintner value of about 200Ė210L. Blends of diastatic malt, which typically also include a form of sugar (usually dextrose) and a wheat flour carrier, can have typical degrees Lintner values of 100L, 60L and 20L, with the 60L and 20L values being the most common among the lower degrees Lintner values. The latter two blends are often called low diastatic malts, or LDMs.Ē

So, the LDMs seem to be just pure barley cut with sugar and flour. Which I think means two things. One, at 2%, I am probably overdoing it by a fair bit by using pure barley malt. Two, it may be best to use pure malt and to ďcut itĒ yourself simply by reducing the amount used then it is to go with a brand that effectively is adding their own fillers to the product to lower the enzymatic performance of the malt.

Likely not a negligible difference in quality for homemade pizza given the scale, but perhaps interesting.
Non-diastatic malt is always an option, too. I've been keeping dry malt extract of both barley and wheat around for a while. I also occasionally use straight amylase enzyme powder when I'm making bread with grains such as rye or soft Italian wheat that don't have a lot of inherent enzymatic activity and I want to have a usable dough in a few hours. I have to correct you on the part about LDM, though. It's not powdered barley cut with sugar. It is sugar (maltose), derived from malted barley, although I guess some products of that type might also have some additional sugar mixed in. At 2%, you might be overdoing a little bit, but maybe not. It depends on what kind of flour you're using. I typically use all American hard wheat flour, or a 50/50 blend of that type mixed with Italian "0" or "00" flour, and I don't experience any problems with that amount. But you should be aware that most any American hard wheat flour (which I would say comprises at least 75% of what gets used for pizza production in America) already has malted barley flour in it, which isn't a form of sugar, but turns into sugar when it's mixed with water and left to sit.
 So yeah, using too much additional sugar of any kind when you're already using a flour with an inherent source of sugar in it can be overdoing it. If you look at the pizza dough recipes on the packaging of most any bread flour or all purpose flour you buy in America, they pretty much never include additional sugar, because they've already incorporated enough malted barley powder into their flour that they don't think additional sugar is necessary. I'm not saying that these millers are necessarily master pizza dough formulators, but that tells you something about how they intend their product to be used.
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Offline Cheazy E

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Re: 5-Minute Plain New York on Steel
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2022, 12:08:27 AM »
Non-diastatic malt is always an option, too. I've been keeping dry malt extract of both barley and wheat around for a while. I also occasionally use straight amylase enzyme powder when I'm making bread with grains such as rye or soft Italian wheat that don't have a lot of inherent enzymatic activity and I want to have a usable dough in a few hours. I have to correct you on the part about LDM, though. It's not powdered barley cut with sugar. It is sugar (maltose), derived from malted barley, although I guess some products of that type might also have some additional sugar mixed in.

Most of the brands I see online use Dextrose! Safe bet itís wheat derived. King Arthurís ďDiastatic Malt PowderĒ appears to just be straight up bread flour with some cane sugar added.

ďUnbleached Enriched Flour (wheat flour, malted barley flour, niacin, educed iron, thiamin mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid, malted barley flour, cane sugar).Ē

In any case, gonna roll with 1% Breadtopia diastatic malt, no sugar and see what the adjustment yields!

Offline 9slicePie

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Re: 5-Minute Plain New York on Steel
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2022, 12:18:21 PM »
In any case, gonna roll with 1% Breadtopia diastatic malt, no sugar and see what the adjustment yields!

Keep us posted.

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: 5-Minute Plain New York on Steel
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2022, 12:57:07 PM »
In any case, gonna roll with 1% Breadtopia diastatic malt, no sugar and see what the adjustment yields!

The technical term for that much DMP is "astronomical." I suspect you'll end up with a liquid dough fairly quickly. Breadtopia malt is pure 210 degree strength. 1% is approximately 52X what the Dough Doc recommended as a starting point and a full 2X what Breadtopia says is the max you should use: "In Bakerís Percentage terms, do not use more than .5% by weight of total flour." https://breadtopia.com/store/organic-diastatic-barley-malt-powder/
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Offline Cheazy E

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Re: 5-Minute Plain New York on Steel
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2022, 04:27:41 PM »
The technical term for that much DMP is "astronomical." I suspect you'll end up with a liquid dough fairly quickly. Breadtopia malt is pure 210 degree strength. 1% is approximately 52X what the Dough Doc recommended as a starting point and a full 2X what Breadtopia says is the max you should use: "In Bakerís Percentage terms, do not use more than .5% by weight of total flour." https://breadtopia.com/store/organic-diastatic-barley-malt-powder/

Huh. Well, I already have my flour blended up, so it should at least make for a fun exercise in astronomical excess!

This is the second time Iíve used the Breadtopia malt and the previous time I went with 2% AND sugar. The result is the first post in this thread. In terms of dough consistency and handling, I didnít notice any material difference between this formulation and past pizzas with similar hydration. Post bake was excellent, as well. Would cold fermentation make the difference? Seems unlikely, but it was in the fridge for 48 hours after the bulk rest.

Fun!

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: 5-Minute Plain New York on Steel
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2022, 04:31:16 PM »
Maybe they have lower concentration products not listed on their website. Where did you buy it?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Cheazy E

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Re: 5-Minute Plain New York on Steel
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2022, 04:47:00 PM »
Maybe they have lower concentration products not listed on their website. Where did you buy it?

From their site! Confirmed this is the only dry malt they sell. Pic attached.

Good news is that I was looking to keep the browning in check and this has a high likelihood of being the culprit!

Bad news is that I was planning on a longer room temperature proof for this weekís dough, so if the cold fermentation played a role in muting the effect last time around, then I may be working with a gelatinous dough blob in short order.

Pizza dough is fascinating!
« Last Edit: June 22, 2022, 06:31:54 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: 5-Minute Plain New York on Steel
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2022, 05:37:48 PM »
I use Breadtopia malt in higher than recommended quantity with long cold sourdough ferments without turning my dough into mush. Don't believe what you read, test and test until you find what works for you.

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Offline Cheazy E

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Re: 5-Minute Plain New York on Steel
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2022, 06:02:12 PM »
I use Breadtopia malt in higher than recommended quantity with long cold sourdough ferments without turning my dough into mush. Don't believe what you read, test and test until you find what works for you.

This is pretty much 91.3% of the fun for me! Working towards mastering the ingredients, recipes, methods, tools, and techniques to make incremental improvements across lots of different pizza styles. Itís wild what you can do with the same set of basic ingredients.

Offline [email protected]

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Re: 5-Minute Plain New York on Steel
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2022, 10:36:19 PM »
I like to live dangerously. (Good looking out!)

 :-D Cheers to that!

Edit: Very interesting thread. Interesting reading on diastatic malt. Took a look at mine and indeed, dextrose and flour added.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2022, 10:45:03 PM by [email protected] »
Dean

Offline Cheazy E

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Re: 5-Minute Plain New York on Steel
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2022, 03:30:51 PM »
Results! 1% Pure Columbian grade uncut Diastatic Malt (aka Breadtopia 210 Lintner). No sugar. Oven running 565 degrees Fahrenheit. 1/4Ē steel was clocking 620 degrees Fahrenheit on launch.

450 gram dough ball. 62% hydration. 2.5% salt. 1% oil.

6 minutes on the nose. Broiler for 2 minutes, but may pull back a bit next go round.

Happy with the results. Retained the super crispy base. Juicy sauce. Flavor packed cheese with a pretty solid melt.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2022, 03:45:06 PM by Cheazy E »

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