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  • #1 by 9slicePie on 17 Jun 2022
  • All Trumps vs Full Strength

    The only difference seems to be that the All Trumps has the words "High Gluten" on the outside.


    Anyone know how these 2 perform?  Any specific application for either?  Can they essentially be used interchangeably?

    Pros/cons of each?
  • #2 by deb415611 on 17 Jun 2022
  • protein level would be the first difference  14.2 vs 12.6   here is a good link with info that will help with your questions



    http://www.generalmillscf.com/~/media/Files/Industry-Resources/Pizzeria/exploring-products/flour-portfolio.ashx
  • #3 by 9slicePie on 17 Jun 2022
  • Thanks
  • #4 by scott r on 17 Jun 2022
  • They are definitely not interchangeable. The protein content makes them perform quite differently and also require different hydration and mixing to get to a similar place. 
  • #5 by PizzaPassion on 23 Jun 2022
  • I know this may not directly answer your question but both flours are bromated and I have read plenty of concerns about the use of flour with bromate.
  • #6 by TXCraig1 on 23 Jun 2022
  • I know this may not directly answer your question but both flours are bromated and I have read plenty of concerns about the use of flour with bromate.

    But none of them are based in science.
  • #7 by ira on 23 Jun 2022
  • But why listen to science when we have Facebook and Twitter? 
  • #8 by wotavidone on 24 Jun 2022
  • But why listen to science when we have Facebook and Twitter?
    King Arthur say the concern with the use of bromate in cooking is its "demonstrated link to cancer in laboratory animals."

    Someone musta done some science, somewhere, to demonstrate that link.
    Of course, the link may occur at levels not seen in baking.

    https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/pro/reference/bromate
  • #9 by TXCraig1 on 24 Jun 2022
  • It's reduced to undetectable levels during baking.
  • #10 by FoodSim on 24 Jun 2022
  • There's really no such thing as "undetectable levels" of potassium bromate before, during, or after baking. The levels are just generally so low as to be of no concern. Levels that low aren't guaranteed though, and in areas where bromated flours are in heavy use, toxic levels are frequently detected in the final baked product.

    "A total of 67% of collected bread samples showed elevated levels of KBrO3 relative to the allowable amount prescribed by various Food and Drug Administration worldwide."

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34262734/

    "Our results showed relatively high bromate levels, which could potentially lead to long term toxic and carcinogenic effects in the Tunisian population."

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29134528/

    It isn't banned as an additive in Canada, China, and the European Union because of posts on Facebook or Twitter.
  • #11 by scott r on 24 Jun 2022
  • Im probably over cautious, but many years ago I stopped using it and have never used it in my restaurants.  You can make amazing pizza without it, so why even take the chance?
  • #12 by TXCraig1 on 24 Jun 2022
  • It isn't banned as an additive in Canada, China, and the European Union because of posts on Facebook or Twitter.

    However that doesn't necessarily imply its banned on the basis of solid science either.
  • #13 by RHawthorne on 24 Jun 2022
  • Personally, I've never understood the concern about potassium bromate in flour. The claim that it's been linked to cancer in laboratory animals might sound compelling, but in reality, the only thing it seems to have been boiled down to (at least as far as I can tell) is it's classification as a carcinogen it creates, and technically, there are carcinogens in pizza crust already, whether or not they're produced by potassium bromate https://www.truthaboutabs.com/acrylamides.html . Even after all these decades, the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) still hasn't classified potassium bromate as being anything more definite than“possibly carcinogenic to humans.” It seems to me that by now, if the evidence was that clear and compelling, they would have been able to draw a definite correlation between potassium bromate and at least one specific kind of cancer, but that does not appear to be the case.
     I rarely use bromated flour myself anyway, because it's almost invariably also bleached, and I don't see there being any excuse for that. Plus I haven't had good experience with the kind of end product I get with it. But I do occasionally go back to it and experiment some more.
  • #14 by wotavidone on 24 Jun 2022
  • there are carcinogens in pizza crust already
    It's all a bit of a giggle isn't it?
    Australian flours are not brominated. So I had to google it.
    When I google bromination of flour, the reason given for using it is to make the dough more elastic.
    I'd have thought that this would not be such a good thing in a pizza dough. In my mind at least, higher elasticity correlates with lower extensibility.
    So, regardless of there being carcinogens in pizza dough already, why add more if you don't have to?

  • #15 by RHawthorne on 24 Jun 2022
  • It's all a bit of a giggle isn't it?
    Australian flours are not brominated. So I had to google it.
    When I google bromination of flour, the reason given for using it is to make the dough more elastic.
    I'd have thought that this would not be such a good thing in a pizza dough. In my mind at least, higher elasticity correlates with lower extensibility.
    So, regardless of there being carcinogens in pizza dough already, why add more if you don't have to?
    It's really more for the pros to get a shorter mixing time. The PB reduces the mixing time by about half, thereby saving time and also reducing heat buildup during the mixing process from friction. The other advantage is that it accelerates the enzymatic activity in the dough so the yeast can access the nutrients in it faster and subsequently ferment the dough faster. That's my understanding of it anyway.
     The claim about it adding elasticity does not hold true at all in my experience. In fact, I'd say the opposite is true. Where I work, they use a bromated flour and make a dough with it at a fairly low rate of hydration, and it's still quite extensible. And when I've used it at home in doughs in the 60% to 62% hydration range (or so), what I got was a product that just laid dead and lifeless with no snap back at all.  I could see how that benefit would be attractive if it's true, though. You could make a dough with high hydration and it would still have good elasticity and not be overly slack. I don't know; maybe if you kneaded it for a long time and used a good amount of salt in the mix, that quality might be attained. I can only imagine there must be something to it.
  • #16 by scott r on 24 Jun 2022
  • The claim about it adding elasticity does not hold true at all in my experience. In fact, I'd say the opposite is true. Where I work, they use a bromated flour and make a dough with it at a fairly low rate of hydration, and it's still quite extensible. And when I've used it at home in doughs in the 60% to 62% hydration range (or so), what I got was a product that just laid dead and lifeless with no snap back at all.  I could see how that benefit would be attractive if it's true, though. You could make a dough with high hydration and it would still have good elasticity and not be overly slack. I don't know; maybe if you kneaded it for a long time and used a good amount of salt in the mix, that quality might be attained. I can only imagine there must be something to it.

    My findings are opposite of yours.  Potassium bromate makes a stronger dough for me, making it more elastic and it gives my dough the ability to exhibit more snap back if I dont let it proof long enough. This is why I always suggest more mixing to try to mimic a dough treated with potassium bromate if you are using a similar non bromated flour.

    My guess is that your work doughs are fermented further or they are hydrated more than your home doughs.
  • #17 by RHawthorne on 24 Jun 2022
  • My findings are opposite of yours.  Potassium bromate makes a stronger dough for me, making it more elastic and it gives my dough the ability to exhibit more snap back if I dont let it proof long enough. This is why I always suggest more mixing to try to mimic a dough treated with potassium bromate if you are using a similar non bromated flour.

    My guess is that your work doughs are fermented further or they are hydrated more than your home doughs.
    I don't know what to tell you. The last time I used bromated flour, I followed a Modernist Pizza dough recipe and mixed it for a good 14 minutes in my KA, and it came out slack as silly putty, and never really developed good elasticity even after a good 24 hours of fermentation. Like with so many things, I swore it off and didn't care to ever use it again, but now I'm as curious as ever and I'm planning on giving it another shot soon.
     On the question of my home dough vs work dough, both of your guesses were wrong. At work, they go for a fairly low hydration rate (I don't know exactly what it is, but by feel, I don't think it can be much over 55% if any), and it goes straight into a fridge and gets used within around 24 hours most of the time. Whereas with my own home dough, I vary on hydration from 58% to 68% and I rarely ferment my dough for less than 24 hours, and usually more like 72 hours.
     Everything about my experience with bromated flour seems to be the opposite of what it should be, and I have no idea why.
  • #18 by FoodSim on 25 Jun 2022
  • However that doesn't necessarily imply its banned on the basis of solid science either.

    Whether you agree that substances linked to cancer should be banned or not, that is the standard in public health policy, including in the United States. "Solid science," as you call it, does not always inform public policy, nor should it, and that's coming from a scientist. Food recalls would never happen if they were based on "solid" evidence of widespread harm. It's always about the risk of any potential harm. If there is simply a potential, it is often in the public's best interest to remove that risk.

    If it were not for the fact potassium bromate was already in use before the 1958 Delaney amendment to the 1938 Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act, the FDA would have banned it just as other world health agencies have. Any other substance with the exact same nephrotoxic and carcinogenic properties would be prohibited from being introduced into products today.

    Can someone make a perfectly safe pizza using bromated flour? Sure. Do they have the analytical equipment necessary to determine they've done just that? I'm going to say most people don't. Just like most people don't have microscopes to determine if the spinach they brought home from the store is free of salmonella, so as to ignore any recall.

    It's only fitting that people should choose to self-govern on the same principle found at the root of public health policy. People have a right to feel safe.
  • #19 by TXCraig1 on 25 Jun 2022
  • People have a right to feel safe.

    They do? Where exactly does that "right" stem from?
  • #20 by TXCraig1 on 25 Jun 2022
  • Whether you agree that substances linked to cancer should be banned or not, that is the standard in public health policy, including in the United States.

    And to be clear, I'm not advocating that nor bromated flour. I'm simply stating the obvious that much public policy is based on junk science, fearmongering, and politics.
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