A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated  (Read 1021 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline PizzaPassion

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 41
  • Location: Pennsylvania
  • I Love Pizza!
Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
« on: June 18, 2022, 11:11:21 AM »
Years ago I bought a five pound repack of All Trumps Bleached and Bromated flour. At the time I was a total rookie but I remember the flour made a dough exactly like what I was looking for. Then I became aware of the bromate issue and decided I wanted to stay aware from any flour that was bleached or bromated. I tried All Trumps with no bleach and bromate and it didn't perform nearly as well. So my question is are there any flours out there that are not bleached or bromated that will perform like All Trumps with bleach and bromate?

Offline PizzaPassion

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 41
  • Location: Pennsylvania
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2022, 05:39:51 AM »
Anyone?

Offline PaulTrap

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 8
  • Location: Pittsburgh, Pa
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2022, 10:49:42 AM »
I am by no means an expert.  But looking on the web. 

I found this info:

ascorbic acid (vitamin C), ADA (azodicarbonamide), potassium and calcium iodate, cysteine and glutathione (amino acids), enzymes and yeast derivatives.

These are all dough additives to replace Potassium Bromate. 

I think if you keep working with and adjusting your dough formula and dough management proceedure the non bleached unbromated flour will perform well for you.  I make my NY style, All Trumps unbleached un bromated with a 24hr poolish 40% of the flour, mix dough, Rt bulk ferment for 3 hr then scale and ball CF for 72 hrs. My DDT is 76-78 į F. 

I also use a low percentage yeast too. 

Hopefully someone with more expertise will chime in.

Online scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5389
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2022, 11:13:27 AM »
I would add a tiny amount of ascorbic acid and mix longer.  Do a series of stretch and folds spaced out at least 30 min apart after the initial machine or hand mixing. 

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31060
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2022, 11:21:54 AM »
Anyone?
PizzaPassion,

The bigger issue may be a convenient source for you where you do not need pay a fortune in shipping costs.

As a start, you may want to take a look at this General Mills document that shows their unbleached and unbromated flours:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/~/media/Files/Industry-Resources/Pizzeria/exploring-products/flour-portfolio.ashx

You might also take a look at the Bob's Red Mill unblelached unbromated bread flour at:

https://www.bobsredmill.com/shop/flours-and-meals/artisan-bread-flour.html

King Arthur also sells an unbleached unbromated high protein flour, at:

https://shop.kingarthurbaking.com/items/high-gluten-flour

There are also a lot of flour sources spread across the U.S. I see that you are in the Pittsburgh area. I don't know of any flour source near where you are but you might scan this list of sources I created to see if you spot anything:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.0 (the list starts at about the middle of the first post)

You might also take a look at this list of organic flours that are almost always unbromated:

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46311.msg464690#msg464690

Good luck. Maybe some other member besides scott r will come forward also to help you more specifically based on their experience.

Peter

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 29003
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2022, 12:54:40 PM »
It would help to know your formula and workflow.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline 9slicePie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 767
Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2022, 12:59:23 PM »
From what I understand, the bromate in the flour / pizza dough does not warrant [significant?] concern.

Offline PizzaPassion

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 41
  • Location: Pennsylvania
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2022, 06:08:52 AM »
From what I understand, the bromate in the flour / pizza dough does not warrant [significant?] concern.
I've read about potassium bromate and I understand the concept that baking reduces potassium bromate to a harmless chemical but when I see many countries, including China where it seems anything goes, has outlawed potassium bromate that gives me reason for serious concern. Here is an article on bromate in flour.
https://www.livescience.com/36206-truth-potassium-bromate-food-additive.html

Offline PizzaPassion

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 41
  • Location: Pennsylvania
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2022, 06:32:28 AM »
PizzaPassion,

The bigger issue may be a convenient source for you where you do not need pay a fortune in shipping costs.

As a start, you may want to take a look at this General Mills document that shows their unbleached and unbromated flours:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/~/media/Files/Industry-Resources/Pizzeria/exploring-products/flour-portfolio.ashx

You might also take a look at the Bob's Red Mill unblelached unbromated bread flour at:

https://www.bobsredmill.com/shop/flours-and-meals/artisan-bread-flour.html

King Arthur also sells an unbleached unbromated high protein flour, at:

https://shop.kingarthurbaking.com/items/high-gluten-flour

There are also a lot of flour sources spread across the U.S. I see that you are in the Pittsburgh area. I don't know of any flour source near where you are but you might scan this list of sources I created to see if you spot anything:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.0 (the list starts at about the middle of the first post)

You might also take a look at this list of organic flours that are almost always unbromated:

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46311.msg464690#msg464690

Good luck. Maybe some other member besides scott r will come forward also to help you more specifically based on their experience.

Peter
I recently purchased a bag of General Mills https://www.bakersauthority.com/products/di-primordine-farina-flour-pizza-flour-27-5lb-bag. Not super thrilled with the results. Tonight's pizza made with Bob's Red Mill Artisan Bread Flour which may be better suited for a thicker crust American style pizza in a 500 degree home oven.

Offline 9slicePie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 767
Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2022, 10:51:46 AM »
I've read about potassium bromate and I understand the concept that baking reduces potassium bromate to a harmless chemical but when I see many countries, including China where it seems anything goes, has outlawed potassium bromate that gives me reason for serious concern. Here is an article on bromate in flour.
https://www.livescience.com/36206-truth-potassium-bromate-food-additive.html

Again, the current conclusion I have drawn after reading up on this (on this website and elsewhere on the internet) is that, when it comes to bromate in flour / pizza dough, it's "nothing to lose sleep over".

Other's can chime in about this as well.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 29003
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2022, 11:26:35 AM »
including China where it seems anything goes, has outlawed potassium bromate that gives me reason for serious concern.

Or maybe it's just a non-tariff way to restrict imports and increase the competitiveness of local products?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31060
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2022, 12:55:15 PM »
When the AIB (American Institute of Baking) was closing down, I recalled that the AIB had prepared a document years ago directed to potassium bromate. That led me to see if the document was in the archives of the Wayback Machine. When I saw that it was, I made a copy of the link. Here it is:

https://web.archive.org/web/20130820221140/https://www.aibonline.org/press/SafeUsePotassiumBromate%2009_08.pdf

Peter

Offline Elchimi

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 429
  • Location: USA
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2022, 10:22:34 PM »
Planet Earth minus USA uses unbromated flour and itís been working quite ok overall for making good pizza. For me and my family we eat enough bromated pizza dough from our local pizza joints, donít need it at home though.

Offline QwertyJuan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 920
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2022, 11:01:33 PM »
Pretty sure Tom answered this question before and I believe he did indicate that the amount of bromate used in the flour was NOT a concern after baking.

Offline Elchimi

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 429
  • Location: USA
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2022, 11:08:48 PM »
Pretty sure Tom answered this question before and I believe he did indicate that the amount of bromate used in the flour was NOT a concern after baking.
Depends on the bake

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline PizzaPassion

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 41
  • Location: Pennsylvania
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2022, 06:36:04 AM »
When the AIB (American Institute of Baking) was closing down, I recalled that the AIB had prepared a document years ago directed to potassium bromate. That led me to see if the document was in the archives of the Wayback Machine. When I saw that it was, I made a copy of the link. Here it is:

https://web.archive.org/web/20130820221140/https://www.aibonline.org/press/SafeUsePotassiumBromate%2009_08.pdf

Peter
Thanks Peter. I did read the document briefly. I saw a number of cautionary comments about proper handling, testing, amount used and baking temperature that it would give me pause before using it. No doubt we could look at the same glass of water and it's either half empty or half full. Why use it if you don't need to? If your local pizza shop made buyers aware that they were using a flour that was banned in 30 different countries do you think they'd sell many pizzas? I highly doubt it. I think it's a dirty little secret of the entire industry.

Online scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5389
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2022, 09:55:02 AM »
Sadly most operators are not even aware of it, so they blissfuly breathe it in every day when they are pouring that bag of flour into the mixer.  Its surprising how much flour becomes airborne dumping out a 50lb bag or two or three into your mixer.

Offline RHawthorne

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1764
  • Location: SW MI
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2022, 10:11:38 AM »
I recently purchased a bag of General Mills https://www.bakersauthority.com/products/di-primordine-farina-flour-pizza-flour-27-5lb-bag. Not super thrilled with the results. Tonight's pizza made with Bob's Red Mill Artisan Bread Flour which may be better suited for a thicker crust American style pizza in a 500 degree home oven.
I tried GM's 'Neapolitan' "00" flour last fall and I was not impressed at all. Maybe I should have given it more of a chance with different techniques, IDK. There was just nothing special at all about the dough I made with it. I don't know what's different with the Di Prim'Ordine vs the Neapolitan. But the Bob's Red Mill artisan bread flour is killer for me, my favorite bread flour by far.
If we're not questioning the reason for our existence, then what the hell are we doing here?!

Offline RHawthorne

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1764
  • Location: SW MI
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2022, 10:19:11 AM »
I would add a tiny amount of ascorbic acid and mix longer.  Do a series of stretch and folds spaced out at least 30 min apart after the initial machine or hand mixing.
I've thought about trying that, but I've never found a good source of information on exactly how much to use. I've heard that you can easily ruin dough by using too much, and that the necessary amount is so small it's almost impossible to measure at home, because the stuff is really powerful. Any advice on usage?
If we're not questioning the reason for our existence, then what the hell are we doing here?!

Online scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5389
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Substitute for All Trumps Bleached & Bromated
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2022, 10:43:12 AM »
When formulating flours to sell where bromate is banned General Mills uses about .03-.04g of ascorbic acid for 1000g of flour.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


 

wordpress