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  • #1 by PizzaPassion on 18 Jun 2022
  • Years ago I bought a five pound repack of All Trumps Bleached and Bromated flour. At the time I was a total rookie but I remember the flour made a dough exactly like what I was looking for. Then I became aware of the bromate issue and decided I wanted to stay aware from any flour that was bleached or bromated. I tried All Trumps with no bleach and bromate and it didn't perform nearly as well. So my question is are there any flours out there that are not bleached or bromated that will perform like All Trumps with bleach and bromate?
  • #2 by PizzaPassion on 23 Jun 2022
  • Anyone?
  • #3 by PaulTrap on 23 Jun 2022
  • I am by no means an expert.  But looking on the web. 

    I found this info:

    ascorbic acid (vitamin C), ADA (azodicarbonamide), potassium and calcium iodate, cysteine and glutathione (amino acids), enzymes and yeast derivatives.

    These are all dough additives to replace Potassium Bromate. 

    I think if you keep working with and adjusting your dough formula and dough management proceedure the non bleached unbromated flour will perform well for you.  I make my NY style, All Trumps unbleached un bromated with a 24hr poolish 40% of the flour, mix dough, Rt bulk ferment for 3 hr then scale and ball CF for 72 hrs. My DDT is 76-78 į F. 

    I also use a low percentage yeast too. 

    Hopefully someone with more expertise will chime in.
  • #4 by scott r on 23 Jun 2022
  • I would add a tiny amount of ascorbic acid and mix longer.  Do a series of stretch and folds spaced out at least 30 min apart after the initial machine or hand mixing. 
  • #5 by Pete-zza on 23 Jun 2022
  • Anyone?
    PizzaPassion,

    The bigger issue may be a convenient source for you where you do not need pay a fortune in shipping costs.

    As a start, you may want to take a look at this General Mills document that shows their unbleached and unbromated flours:

    https://www.generalmillscf.com/~/media/Files/Industry-Resources/Pizzeria/exploring-products/flour-portfolio.ashx

    You might also take a look at the Bob's Red Mill unblelached unbromated bread flour at:

    https://www.bobsredmill.com/shop/flours-and-meals/artisan-bread-flour.html

    King Arthur also sells an unbleached unbromated high protein flour, at:

    https://shop.kingarthurbaking.com/items/high-gluten-flour

    There are also a lot of flour sources spread across the U.S. I see that you are in the Pittsburgh area. I don't know of any flour source near where you are but you might scan this list of sources I created to see if you spot anything:

    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.0 (the list starts at about the middle of the first post)

    You might also take a look at this list of organic flours that are almost always unbromated:

    Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46311.msg464690#msg464690

    Good luck. Maybe some other member besides scott r will come forward also to help you more specifically based on their experience.

    Peter
  • #6 by TXCraig1 on 23 Jun 2022
  • It would help to know your formula and workflow.
  • #7 by 9slicePie on 23 Jun 2022
  • From what I understand, the bromate in the flour / pizza dough does not warrant [significant?] concern.
  • #8 by PizzaPassion on 24 Jun 2022
  • From what I understand, the bromate in the flour / pizza dough does not warrant [significant?] concern.
    I've read about potassium bromate and I understand the concept that baking reduces potassium bromate to a harmless chemical but when I see many countries, including China where it seems anything goes, has outlawed potassium bromate that gives me reason for serious concern. Here is an article on bromate in flour.
    https://www.livescience.com/36206-truth-potassium-bromate-food-additive.html
  • #9 by PizzaPassion on 24 Jun 2022
  • PizzaPassion,

    The bigger issue may be a convenient source for you where you do not need pay a fortune in shipping costs.

    As a start, you may want to take a look at this General Mills document that shows their unbleached and unbromated flours:

    https://www.generalmillscf.com/~/media/Files/Industry-Resources/Pizzeria/exploring-products/flour-portfolio.ashx

    You might also take a look at the Bob's Red Mill unblelached unbromated bread flour at:

    https://www.bobsredmill.com/shop/flours-and-meals/artisan-bread-flour.html

    King Arthur also sells an unbleached unbromated high protein flour, at:

    https://shop.kingarthurbaking.com/items/high-gluten-flour

    There are also a lot of flour sources spread across the U.S. I see that you are in the Pittsburgh area. I don't know of any flour source near where you are but you might scan this list of sources I created to see if you spot anything:

    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.0 (the list starts at about the middle of the first post)

    You might also take a look at this list of organic flours that are almost always unbromated:

    Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46311.msg464690#msg464690

    Good luck. Maybe some other member besides scott r will come forward also to help you more specifically based on their experience.

    Peter
    I recently purchased a bag of General Mills https://www.bakersauthority.com/products/di-primordine-farina-flour-pizza-flour-27-5lb-bag. Not super thrilled with the results. Tonight's pizza made with Bob's Red Mill Artisan Bread Flour which may be better suited for a thicker crust American style pizza in a 500 degree home oven.
  • #10 by 9slicePie on 24 Jun 2022
  • I've read about potassium bromate and I understand the concept that baking reduces potassium bromate to a harmless chemical but when I see many countries, including China where it seems anything goes, has outlawed potassium bromate that gives me reason for serious concern. Here is an article on bromate in flour.
    https://www.livescience.com/36206-truth-potassium-bromate-food-additive.html

    Again, the current conclusion I have drawn after reading up on this (on this website and elsewhere on the internet) is that, when it comes to bromate in flour / pizza dough, it's "nothing to lose sleep over".

    Other's can chime in about this as well.
  • #11 by TXCraig1 on 24 Jun 2022
  • including China where it seems anything goes, has outlawed potassium bromate that gives me reason for serious concern.

    Or maybe it's just a non-tariff way to restrict imports and increase the competitiveness of local products?
  • #12 by Pete-zza on 24 Jun 2022
  • When the AIB (American Institute of Baking) was closing down, I recalled that the AIB had prepared a document years ago directed to potassium bromate. That led me to see if the document was in the archives of the Wayback Machine. When I saw that it was, I made a copy of the link. Here it is:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20130820221140/https://www.aibonline.org/press/SafeUsePotassiumBromate%2009_08.pdf

    Peter
  • #13 by Elchimi on 24 Jun 2022
  • Planet Earth minus USA uses unbromated flour and itís been working quite ok overall for making good pizza. For me and my family we eat enough bromated pizza dough from our local pizza joints, donít need it at home though.
  • #14 by QwertyJuan on 24 Jun 2022
  • Pretty sure Tom answered this question before and I believe he did indicate that the amount of bromate used in the flour was NOT a concern after baking.
  • #15 by Elchimi on 24 Jun 2022
  • Pretty sure Tom answered this question before and I believe he did indicate that the amount of bromate used in the flour was NOT a concern after baking.
    Depends on the bake
  • #16 by PizzaPassion on 25 Jun 2022
  • When the AIB (American Institute of Baking) was closing down, I recalled that the AIB had prepared a document years ago directed to potassium bromate. That led me to see if the document was in the archives of the Wayback Machine. When I saw that it was, I made a copy of the link. Here it is:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20130820221140/https://www.aibonline.org/press/SafeUsePotassiumBromate%2009_08.pdf

    Peter
    Thanks Peter. I did read the document briefly. I saw a number of cautionary comments about proper handling, testing, amount used and baking temperature that it would give me pause before using it. No doubt we could look at the same glass of water and it's either half empty or half full. Why use it if you don't need to? If your local pizza shop made buyers aware that they were using a flour that was banned in 30 different countries do you think they'd sell many pizzas? I highly doubt it. I think it's a dirty little secret of the entire industry.
  • #17 by scott r on 25 Jun 2022
  • Sadly most operators are not even aware of it, so they blissfuly breathe it in every day when they are pouring that bag of flour into the mixer.  Its surprising how much flour becomes airborne dumping out a 50lb bag or two or three into your mixer.
  • #18 by RHawthorne on 25 Jun 2022
  • I recently purchased a bag of General Mills https://www.bakersauthority.com/products/di-primordine-farina-flour-pizza-flour-27-5lb-bag. Not super thrilled with the results. Tonight's pizza made with Bob's Red Mill Artisan Bread Flour which may be better suited for a thicker crust American style pizza in a 500 degree home oven.
    I tried GM's 'Neapolitan' "00" flour last fall and I was not impressed at all. Maybe I should have given it more of a chance with different techniques, IDK. There was just nothing special at all about the dough I made with it. I don't know what's different with the Di Prim'Ordine vs the Neapolitan. But the Bob's Red Mill artisan bread flour is killer for me, my favorite bread flour by far.
  • #19 by RHawthorne on 25 Jun 2022
  • I would add a tiny amount of ascorbic acid and mix longer.  Do a series of stretch and folds spaced out at least 30 min apart after the initial machine or hand mixing.
    I've thought about trying that, but I've never found a good source of information on exactly how much to use. I've heard that you can easily ruin dough by using too much, and that the necessary amount is so small it's almost impossible to measure at home, because the stuff is really powerful. Any advice on usage?
  • #20 by scott r on 25 Jun 2022
  • When formulating flours to sell where bromate is banned General Mills uses about .03-.04g of ascorbic acid for 1000g of flour.
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