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Offline Steveo-19

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does it really matter how you incorporate Ingredients
« on: June 21, 2022, 08:12:07 AM »
Iíve always been pretty strict how I incorporate ingredients I use a planetary mixer a Kitchen Aid.  First I mix water, yeast and poolish then add the flour, mix until hydrated usually a couple of minutes then I will let the dough rest for 10min.  I then add the salt, mix for a couple of minutes then I add the oil after salt is mixed in.  My question is does it really matter?  I have seen people that look like they know what they are doing add the oil and water together in the beginning, is adding salt and the instant yeast together in the beginning a myth?  Idk, I just follow directions from recipes in my books.  Iím looking at getting a new mixer maybe a spiral but probably an Ankarsrum and Iíve seen people mix dough in a lot different ways then I do, some say they just throw everything in together and walk away and in 15-20 later Walla pizza dough.  Have I been overthinking the mixing process?

Offline texmex

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Re: does it really matter how you incorporate Ingredients
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2022, 09:50:36 AM »
In the beginning, I used to be very careful about it all and used my mixer for specifically timed mixing... adding this, and then that, always adding oil last...
Now I dump it all in together and mix by hand while building strength and a homogenous dough over time with stretch and folds.
Yes, there are many reasons for precision in the methods (especially in a commercial setting when consistency is king).
As a home baker, I stopped stressing about the minutiae and just do the easiest process. 
Almost all my doughs are edible! ;)
Risa sin camisa, sinvergŁenza.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: does it really matter how you incorporate Ingredients
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2022, 11:53:42 AM »
Iíve always been pretty strict how I incorporate ingredients I use a planetary mixer a Kitchen Aid.  First I mix water, yeast and poolish then add the flour, mix until hydrated usually a couple of minutes then I will let the dough rest for 10min.  I then add the salt, mix for a couple of minutes then I add the oil after salt is mixed in.  My question is does it really matter?  I have seen people that look like they know what they are doing add the oil and water together in the beginning, is adding salt and the instant yeast together in the beginning a myth?  Idk, I just follow directions from recipes in my books.  Iím looking at getting a new mixer maybe a spiral but probably an Ankarsrum and Iíve seen people mix dough in a lot different ways then I do, some say they just throw everything in together and walk away and in 15-20 later Walla pizza dough.  Have I been overthinking the mixing process?
Steveo,

Those are fair questions to ask. In my case, I learned how to make my doughs from the late Tom Lehmann. Tom was with the American Institute of Baking for about 50 years, and during that time he wrote articles about pizza for different publications (such as PMQ and Pizza Today), made videos, and was a fixture at the PMQ Think Tank and here on this forum when he retired from the AIB. Tom was also a lecturer and consultant all around the world. Because Tom was with the AIB, his audience was mostly professionals. I mention this background because Tom's focus was on trying to help professionals minimize failure in their pizza making. Tom often stated that failure was not an option. Tom was well aware of all of the potholes in the road and how to get around them. Professionals loved him.

So, for example, Tom advocated that salt not come into direct contact with yeast for any material amount of time and, for the most part, he promoted the use of fresh yeast and IDY to professionals rather than ADY. Using ADY required pre-hydrating the ADY using a part of the formula water (equal to about five times the weight of the ADY), at around 105F for about ten minutes. Clearly, using fresh yeast or IDY was a far simpler method. Tom also was a proponent of adding oil later in the mixing/kneading stage, not with the other ingredients at an earlier stage. This recommendation was because oil cannot hydrate the flour and, in fact, can actually impede gluten formation if there is too much of it. But he also acknowledged that oil had a wetting effect on the dough. Because of this, Tom usually recommended that as a starting point the combination of hydration percent and the percent of oil be equal to the rated absorption value of the flour.

If you would like to see the dough management procedure that Tom came up with for professionals, see:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43833.0

There are also some videos featuring Tom (and assistants) that are very good in my opinion in educating us on how to make pizza dough, at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=60152.msg603158#msg603158

Here on the forum, members do all kinds of things in making their doughs. For example, there are some members who may use ADY without pre-hydrating it, and claim success. Even some professionals do that but only a few that I have noted, and in some cases I concluded that more ADY was used than if it were pre-hydrated. And some members will add the oil up front instead of later, mostly for simplicity in making the dough or maybe they were not aware of Tom's advice on this matter. And some will sift the flour before using. That may be a good idea if the flour has been sitting around for a long time and gotten "cakey" in texture, and sifting it might improve its hydration a bit. With respect to yeast and salt, some will dissolve the salt in water before adding the yeast. The reason for this is because salt pulls moisture from yeast (it is hygroscopic in nature). So if it's left for too long in contact with the yeast it can cause stress on the yeast cells and cause them to break down. Salt can also toughen the dough, so if that effect is not wanted or needed, for example, to prolong the fermentation period a bit, it can be added later in the mixing/kneading stage.

For a good article on salt, you might check out this one from King Arthur:

https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/pro/reference/salt

As an aside, I might add that member FoodSim (formerly November), who is one of the smartest persons I know of, always sifts the flour and adds the oil up front. When I once sifter the four twice, November chided me and told me once was enough :).

As they say: Different strokes for different folks ;D.

Peter


Offline Steveo-19

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Re: does it really matter how you incorporate Ingredients
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2022, 01:46:00 PM »
Wow thanks Pete!  Yes I have read and watched many of Tomís video and his posts as well as yours, they have been very helpful.  Maybe Iíll have to rewatch a couple.  Question to you Pete, are you familiar with the Ankarsrum mixer?  Iím looking at getting one how would you go about mixing your dough with that mixer?  Or do you have a suggestion on a mixer that can replace a little 5 quart Kitchen Aid? I would love a spiral I know Tom has said thatís the best to mix dough but need a mixer my wife can still use.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: does it really matter how you incorporate Ingredients
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2022, 02:09:21 PM »
Wow thanks Pete!  Yes I have read and watched many of Tomís video and his posts as well as yours, they have been very helpful.  Maybe Iíll have to rewatch a couple.  Question to you Pete, are you familiar with the Ankarsrum mixer?  Iím looking at getting one how would you go about mixing your dough with that mixer?  Or do you have a suggestion on a mixer that can replace a little 5 quart Kitchen Aid? I would love a spiral I know Tom has said thatís the best to mix dough but need a mixer my wife can still use.
Steveo,

I have heard and read about the Ankarsrum mixer but I have not had any experience with it, or any other mixers for that matter. You might want to post in the equipment board of the forum since there has been a lot of discussion of mixers of various kinds.

Peter

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Offline wotavidone

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Re: does it really matter how you incorporate Ingredients
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2022, 06:46:23 PM »
I've heard and read that salt is bad for yeast, that it isn't, etc.
In the end I have decided to go with what seems to be safe.
I add to the (running) mixer in this order:
The water,
The salt, and wait for it to dissolve,
About half the flour and mix
Sprinkle in the yeast, or add my preferment sponge, and mix
Remainder of the flour.
My aim is to not expose the yeast to hypersaline regions, that might exist around undissolved salt.

Mick

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: does it really matter how you incorporate Ingredients
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2022, 07:07:14 PM »
For many years, I recall Tom Lehmann advising against having salt come in direct contact with yeast. This was usually advice that he gave to professional pizza makers. Rightly or wrongly, I concluded that he was just trying to minimize the possibility of the pizza makers getting less than desirable results that could negatively impact their business. So, his advice was certain to minimize or prevent failure and its consequences.

I also did a search of Tom's posts on the subject and found this:

Reply 5 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=55768.msg561545;topicseen#msg561545

It will be noted from Reply 5 that Tom mentioned the duration of contact of the salt and yeast. This suggests that salt and yeast can coexist so long as the duration of contact is not too great.

I also recall getting into a debate with Marco Parente (pizzanapoletana), who was largely responsible for introducing the forum to the Neapolitan style of dough in early 2005, about the salt and yeast matter. That led Marco to post the following:

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1085.msg9695#msg9695

Tom also authored a PMQ article on the subject at:

https://www.pmq.com/will-mixing-in-salt-and-sugar-kill-your-yeast-tom-lehmann-says-not-always/

My practice with salt has always been pretty much the same as Mick mentioned. It may well be that Tom didn't see a need to dissolve the salt in water because he had commercial mixers in mind as noted in Reply 5, not home mixers.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: does it really matter how you incorporate Ingredients
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2022, 08:08:40 PM »
On the other hand, googling "salt stressed yeast" will return numerous articles including scientific journal articles discussing the benefits of salt-stressing yeast. For example:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/44620380_A_Novel_Bread_Making_Process_Using_Salt-Stressed_Baker's_Yeast

Quote
Baker's yeast was stressed in 7% salt solution then mixed into dough, which was then evaluated for fermentation time, dough fermentation producing gas, dough expansion, bread specific volumes, and sensory and physical properties. The results of this study indicated that salt-stressed Baker's yeast shortened fermentation time in 16% and 24% sugar dough. Forty minutes of salt stress produced significant amount of gas and increased bread specific volumes. The bread was softer and significantly improved sensory properties for aroma, taste, and overall acceptability were obtained.
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Offline wotavidone

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Re: does it really matter how you incorporate Ingredients
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2022, 09:55:02 PM »
For many years, I recall Tom Lehmann advising against having salt come in direct contact with yeast. This was usually advice that he gave to professional pizza makers. Rightly or wrongly, I concluded that he was just trying to minimize the possibility of the pizza makers getting less than desirable results that could negatively impact their business. So, his advice was certain to minimize or prevent failure and its consequences.

I also did a search of Tom's posts on the subject and found this:

Reply 5 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=55768.msg561545;topicseen#msg561545

It will be noted from Reply 5 that Tom mentioned the duration of contact of the salt and yeast. This suggests that salt and yeast can coexist so long as the duration of contact is not too great.

I also recall getting into a debate with Marco Parente (pizzanapoletana), who was largely responsible for introducing the forum to the Neapolitan style of dough in early 2005, about the salt and yeast matter. That led Marco to post the following:

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1085.msg9695#msg9695

Tom also authored a PMQ article on the subject at:

https://www.pmq.com/will-mixing-in-salt-and-sugar-kill-your-yeast-tom-lehmann-says-not-always/

My practice with salt has always been pretty much the same as Mick mentioned. It may well be that Tom didn't see a need to dissolve the salt in water because he had commercial mixers in mind as noted in Reply 5, not home mixers.

Peter
I suppose I should stress my thinking is only in terms of re-hydrating dried yeast. Watch the Italians making dough with fresh yeast and its pretty clear they don't particularly care about salt/yeast interaction.
Mick

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: does it really matter how you incorporate Ingredients
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2022, 10:11:46 PM »
I suppose I should stress my thinking is only in terms of re-hydrating dried yeast. Watch the Italians making dough with fresh yeast and its pretty clear they don't particularly care about salt/yeast interaction.
Mick,

You are correct. Fresh yeast has a moisture content of around 70% so it is less susceptible to damage from salt. In commercial applications, fresh yeast is almost always just tossed into the flour or water.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=57983.msg581752;topicseen#msg581752

A lot of pizzerias that have been around for years and used fresh yeast never went to dry yeast, out of habit. I donít know about Australia but I cannot find fresh yeast in any store around where I live. I think that is also true for many members in the U.S. unless they are near bakeries that use fresh yeast and will some if asked.

Peter

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Offline wotavidone

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Re: does it really matter how you incorporate Ingredients
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2022, 01:12:09 AM »
Sounds like you and I (and Tom, after reading his PMQ article) are on the same page with this. It's the increase in osmotic pressure interfering with the rehydration that was my concern, but as pizzanapletana said in his post, once the salt is dissolved in the water, the osmotic pressure is sitting where it is going to sit for the rest of the fermentation.
My takeaway is that, provided you fully dissolve your salt in all of your formula water first, after that you can pretty much add IDY or fresh yeast whenever it suits you.
And no, I've never noticed fresh yeast for sale in any shop I frequent. I think I'd have quite a time securing some.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2022, 01:15:14 AM by wotavidone »
Mick

Offline Steveo-19

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Re: does it really matter how you incorporate Ingredients
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2022, 06:52:36 PM »
Thank you guys for responding and after reading some of the articles I feel better about switching up my mixing process.  From now on I will just stir in the salt with the water, add Poolish and flour throw the yeast on top and start rocking.  I will still wait to incorporate oil later in the process like I have been.     

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