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Author Topic: sour taste + oven rise, how can we have both ?  (Read 574 times)

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Offline sallam

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sour taste + oven rise, how can we have both ?
« on: January 14, 2018, 03:06:53 AM »
Dear Tom

I make pizza for my family every week, using my own SD starter. I have one long standing problem that I hope to solve one day, with your help:

No matter how I try, I failed so far to get both an oven rise and a sour taste. It seems as if I must make a choice of one or the other.

If I take measures to get a sour tangy complex taste, like waiting for a levain to start collapsing, and long cold bulk fermenting, the pizza gets that heavenly rich tangy taste, but hardly a minimum oven rise. On the other hand, if I aim for oven rise, with measures like short cold ferments and allowing only 50% rise of bulk ferment stage, the pizza gets a perfectly light-crisp brown bottom and soft airy top, but hardly any tangy taste.

It seems as if to build sourness, one has to sacrifice the gluten, and lose oven rise!?

My question is: how can I get both worlds in my dough? .. a decent oven rise while still getting my pies to have a strong sour complex after-taste? Is it possible to have both advantages ? or must it be one or the other ?

Is there a rule on how you can get a strong sour taste without having to over-proof and lose the gluten?

Do you think that it helps if I age my starter in the fridge? I've read in thefreshloaf forum that a 66% hydration starter, crafted by "dabrownman", a creative member, called no-muss-no-fuss gives a good sour taste after aging in the fridge for 8-16 weeks. What do you think of that approach? can building a levain from such a tiny seed (3~10g) be enough to inject sour tang in the final dough?

I appreciate any tips you may give me to solve this continuous drama of my pizzas.
I'm a home baker.

Offline yarbrough462

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Re: sour taste + oven rise, how can we have both ?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2018, 03:31:17 AM »
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: sour taste + oven rise, how can we have both ?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2018, 07:56:15 AM »
It might be that the flour you are using isn't strong enough the handle the fermentation needed to get a sour taste with your starter.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Online mitchjg

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Re: sour taste + oven rise, how can we have both ?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2018, 10:05:16 AM »
I think your observation about the gluten problems and poor rise are to be expected.   In fact, here is a conversation I had with a professional baker yesterday: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=50889.msg512008#msg512008

Having said that, you will see that she suggested this bread recipe as a consideration: https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/extra-tangy-sourdough-bread-recipe

It is described as "Extra Tangy."  If you look at it you will see that the tanginess comes from a large amount of unfed starter.  The rise comes from the addition of commercial yeast.  I do not know how well that will work for pizza but you may want to give something like that a try.  It may give you what you want - good rise and sour taste.
Mitch

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Offline sallam

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Re: sour taste + oven rise, how can we have both ?
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2018, 01:44:21 PM »
Thanks Mitch for your insight.
I think your observation about the gluten problems and poor rise are to be expected.

Me (1/13/2018, 9:28:07 AM): What would you think of making a pizza dough and then putting it in the fridge for several days (say 5) and then warming it up and baking?  Would there be some good benefits or downsides if I did something like that?  Again, no yeast, just sourdough.
Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:28:35 AM): After 5 days you will generally have lost all the sugars and starches in your dough so you may not have enough to get a good rise, or solid browning to the crust. I wouldn't recommend it.
Me (1/13/2018, 9:28:45 AM): OK, thanks.
Me (1/13/2018, 9:30:05 AM): Another question (I am interested in time, temperature and sourdough amount - that is why I am asking).  If I made a pizza dough with much less starter and then fermented it for, say, 24 hours - would that have some good benefits or downsides?
Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:32:20 AM): You would need to chill the dough for the longer rise time. But I would also worry about the yeast (especially wild yeast) loosing it's "umph" or ability to rise well.  On the other hand you would get really great flavor and a nice chewier texture to the crust.

That is similar to the conclusion I noticed over time:
unfed or over-proofed starter, plus long CF = great tangy flavor, but minimum rise.
peak starter plus short CF = good rise, but no noticeable tang

you will see that she suggested this bread recipe as a consideration: https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/extra-tangy-sourdough-bread-recipe

It is described as "Extra Tangy."  If you look at it you will see that the tanginess comes from a large amount of unfed starter.  The rise comes from the addition of commercial yeast.

I read that recipe, but noticed no mention of unfed starter or the use of commercial yeast, am I missing something?
Anyhow, I don't want to use commercial yeast in any of my doughs. Starters have many health benefits that one should consider. In fact, sourer dough means, as Maggie mentioned to you, that almost no starch or sugar were left in the dough.after being consumed by bacterial multiplication. This is a good thing, specially for diabetics like me, and for weight-watchers too. However, 5 days would leave the dough, at least for me, with no power at all, to the point that out of the oven it would tear apart upon handling!

I'm thinking of a middle solution: over-fermenting the levain in CF for 4 days, to build a decent tang, then mix with final dough, CF for a short 24h to give it back some strength, to at least hold together, and show some rise. Do you think it would work that way?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 02:37:01 PM by sallam »
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Offline yarbrough462

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Re: sour taste + oven rise, how can we have both ?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2018, 01:50:05 PM »
Thanks Mitch for your insight.
That is similar to the conclusion I noticed over time:
unfed or over-proofed starter, plus long CF = great tangy flavor, but minimum rise.
peak starter plus short CF = good rise, but no noticeable tang

I read that recipe, but noticed no mention of unfed starter or the use of commercial yeast, am I missing something?

Have you considered a longer room temp-ish rise with less sourdough?  I tried it for the first time last night and the crust came out with a great tang and was very tender yet crisp.  I used TXCraig's recipe exactly from the Neapolitan section of this forum.  It is a sticky at the top.

Offline sallam

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Re: sour taste + oven rise, how can we have both ?
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2018, 02:28:14 PM »
Have you considered a longer room temp-ish rise with less sourdough?  I tried it for the first time last night and the crust came out with a great tang and was very tender yet crisp.  I used TXCraig's recipe exactly from the Neapolitan section of this forum.  It is a sticky at the top.

Could you please quote that recipe here? I didn't find it in the first page, and 119 pages would be a bit hard to fetch from.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 02:34:40 PM by sallam »
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Offline yarbrough462

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Re: sour taste + oven rise, how can we have both ?
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2018, 02:41:52 PM »
Could you please quote that recipe here? I didn't find it in the first page, and 119 pages would be a bit hard to fetch from.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20477.msg202047.html#msg202047

Online mitchjg

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Re: sour taste + oven rise, how can we have both ?
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2018, 04:03:10 PM »

I read that recipe, but noticed no mention of unfed starter or the use of commercial yeast, am I missing something?


You are right, my apologies.  I was actually thinking of a different recipe when I was writing. 

What you also may want try is a "stiffer" starter.  One with say 70% hydration instead of 100% hydration (and adjust your overall water so that you get the correct overall hydration).  It is supposed to provide a different flavor profile.  I
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Offline sallam

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Re: sour taste + oven rise, how can we have both ?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2018, 04:22:41 PM »
What you also may want try is a "stiffer" starter.  One with say 70% hydration

Yes, that is also how I was advised from the man who crafted the maintenance-free NMNF starter. He advised me to use a 12-week old retarded starter and a flour + bran levain. His reply is here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/397055#comment-397055
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 04:25:11 PM by sallam »
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Online mitchjg

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Re: sour taste + oven rise, how can we have both ?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2018, 04:35:11 PM »
Yes, that is also how I was advised from the man who crafted the maintenance-free NMNF starter. He advised me to use a 12-week old retarded starter and a flour + bran levain. His reply is here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/397055#comment-397055

Haha - I had no idea what NMNF was - I looked it up - "No Muss Not Fuss"!  I like that.

I cannot comment on what he is doing with bran and rye, etc.  - beyond my experience.  I can say that I have seen many of "dabrownman"'s posts and he appears to be a very experienced and competent baker.  So, I would think he can give good advice. 

If it was me, I would start more simply (really, really no muss no fuss) just make a 70% starter with regular flour and take it from there.  So, a couple of steps - first just the hydration change.  If not sufficient, then the ingredient change.  Something like that will help you know both what is happening and what is causing it.
Mitch

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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: sour taste + oven rise, how can we have both ?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2018, 05:33:17 PM »
Something you might want to try, we have done this commercially with sourdough and it works reasonably well. When you open the dough into skins place it into a lightly oiled pan, a cutter pan works quite well for this (be sure the pan is well seasoned) and set it aside to proof for an hour or more, then dress the skin in your normal manner and bake just long enough so you can slide the pizza out of the pan to finish baking on the oven deck/stone. The proofing time won't give you tons of oven spring (I don't know what your expectations are) but it will help to open the crumb structure producing a "lighter" textured finished crust.
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Offline sallam

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Re: sour taste + oven rise, how can we have both ?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2018, 06:02:26 PM »
When you open the dough into skins place it into a lightly oiled pan, a cutter pan works quite well for this (be sure the pan is well seasoned) and set it aside to proof for an hour or more

Many thanks Tom. That is exactly how I do it. I always use oiled steel pans, and proof in trays for 2-3 hours. It does help indeed, though the rise is minimum compared to when the dough is short retarded.
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Offline sallam

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Re: sour taste + oven rise, how can we have both ?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2018, 10:46:58 PM »
I found an intersting post made by Steve, owner of Alpine Sourdough Bakery in Corvallis Oregon, where he uses 2 levains built from the same starter, one left unfed for 48~72 hours for sourness, and the other fed daily for yeast power.

Quote
Our starter is split into two portions 48 hours in advance (sometimes 72 hours for extra sour bread). The first portion is not fed and allows the slower acting lactobacillus to overwhelm the yeast; the second portion is fed daily and caters to keeping the yeast extremely active.

On a bake day, we are actually using two different starters from one culture; a lactobacillus dominate starter and a yeast dominate starter. We do from 8 to 12 different dough runs depending on the types of breads being produced that day.

Each dough has it's own "old" to "new" starter ratio. Sourdough banana nut bread uses "new" starter only; minimum sour, maximum yeast, and a fast rise. White sourdough uses more "old" starter than "new" starter for maximum sourness and has a slower rise time. Each starter is at it's prime when used..

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/77792#comment-77792

He mentioned here that he uses 25% starter (100% hydration) in his recipes. Half the starter weight goes to the flour side of the recipe, the other half goes to the water side of the recipe.

Another TFL member also reported that this technique works like a charm here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/77902#comment-77902
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 11:00:13 PM by sallam »
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Offline sallam

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Re: sour taste + oven rise, how can we have both ?
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2018, 07:46:07 AM »
It might be that the flour you are using isn't strong enough the handle the fermentation needed to get a sour taste with your starter.
At my end, there is not much flour choices unfortunately. What if I used some traditional buttermilk, would that add strength to the dough?

I remember reading one of your posts where you said that the tangy flavor comes from acetic acid. Do you have any tips for increasing it in the final dough, other than long CF periods?
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Offline hotsawce

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Re: sour taste + oven rise, how can we have both ?
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2018, 01:19:30 PM »
Same story here. It can be done - tartine and noble make flavorful, airy breads with only starter.

Make sure it’s healthy, try using a large amount with some whole grains or rye. Short bulk, ball, and let the balls proof at room temp until mostly desired size. Just see how long it takes and observe.

My starter went proteolytic so I have to cultivate a new one, but will be trying that.

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