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Author Topic: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala  (Read 5273 times)

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2020, 12:43:48 PM »
Something to consider when doing a fast single fermentation dough like this - here is an excerpt from Mia Pizza by Piergiorgio Giorilli.
Alex

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Offline texmex

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2020, 12:53:01 PM »
Something to consider when doing a fast single fermentation dough like this - here is an excerpt from Mia Pizza by Piergiorgio Giorilli.


Oh, thanks for that. Purines no beuno.
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Offline DoouBall

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2020, 02:20:21 PM »
Looking back to Jack's first post, a yeast amount of 0.52% IDY is most likely not considered "excessive" and is almost certainly safe.

One of my favorite bread formulas for a Japanese Milk Bread (Pain De Mie) uses 0.56% IDY and is an absolutely amazing recipe with great flavor and no issues with digestibility that I'm aware of.

I think Giorilli is thinking more of the formulas that use a packet of yeast to 3-4 cups of flour - the basic layperson's version of pizza dough like this one:

https://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/bobby-flay/pizza-dough-recipe-1921714

That's more like 1.67% ADY and is probably "excessive". Tastes yeasty too.
Alex

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2020, 02:40:38 PM »
Something to consider when doing a fast single fermentation dough like this - here is an excerpt from Mia Pizza by Piergiorgio Giorilli.

Yes, that's the conventional wisdom, and I can't refute what he says as I simply don't know the facts.  I note that he doesn't specify at what level yeast becomes a problem, nor does he really say anything about what the minimum fermentation time should be.

He does give this recipe for pizza con metodo diretto:

1000g Flour (W240)
570g Water
10g Malt
25g of CY
25g of Salt

I can only agree with him that this is really excessive and I don't really understand that he publishes something like that.  He doesn't give any information about temperature and how long it should go, only 20 minutes of puntata and then to let the balls at the least double in size.  As an alternative he offers to reduce the yeast and increase the strength of the flour and to cold ferment it for a few hours.  Not sure that I understand much of his proposed recipe!

Wouldn't the problem also hold true for a Giorelli biga where you try to encourage the multiplication of yeast cells, or is it only commercial beer yeast that produces this effect?

Not that I want to detract from Mr. Giorelli's achievements, but I bought La mia pizza (though I still didn't read it).  My first reaction when leafing through it was that he should have left the photos out, most pizza published here on pm.com looks way better.  It's also very light on theory!
Jack

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2020, 03:26:51 PM »
Good to know. His recipe seems a bit crazy with 25g of CY - that's definitely a yeast bomb.

Thanks for saving me the $11!
Alex

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2020, 03:36:54 PM »
I'll let you know what I think once I've read it!

I also have Il grande libro del pane.  That one looks much more useful!

I also have Bonci's Pizza Hero, that looks like a good pizza book!
Jack

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2020, 10:48:46 PM »
I wish these were available in English.
Alex

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2020, 06:46:52 AM »
Inspired by Ettore (the Confraternity's Priore) who created this recipe and mixing method, I had to make another one.  This time with my old Kitchen Aid mixer.

I used the beater attachment.  I put all the ingredients in the bowl, let it run at the slowest speed for 20 seconds, and then at the maximum for another 4 minutes (until the dough has climbed onto the beater and pulled away from the sides and bottom.  Then stop for 5 minutes and 10 seconds at max, and repeated once more.

Then onto the bench from the bowl and 3 series of folds spaced 10 minutes apart.  Into an oiled container and baked 3-4 hours later.

It's super easy, fast, and delicious.  The hardest part is really extending it and then getting it into the oven.  I see I still have to work on the evenness! :)
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline DoouBall

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2020, 03:43:12 PM »
This really looks great for such a short and straightforward workflow. Glad you shared this with the forum!

You mixed until the dough was ready...then waited 5:10s and then mixed for another 4 mins on maximum? That seems a bit long, doesn't it? What was your final dough temperature? Either way, the results are excellent, I'm just wondering.

This method reminds me of two others that I learned:

1)Peter Reinhart's method - with all ingredients in planetary mixer, using paddle hook mix for 1 minute on lowest speed, rest 5 minutes, 1 minute on medium speed, then give it 4 sets of stretch folds on the counter. Works nicely for any dough I've tried from 65% to 75% hydration.

2)Jim Lahey's method - with all ingredients in planetary mixer, using paddle hook mix all dry ingredients on lowest until combined. Stop, add water, mix on lowest for 30 seconds, the turn to highest and mix for 2.5 to 4 minutes until the dough comes together. You'll know when the dough is ready because it will suddenly come off teh sides of the bowl and wrap itself around the pastry paddle (his term for paddle hook) and start to slap the bowl.

I found both methods to be great, but Jim Lahey's method is even easier as no folds are required afterwards. He uses this method for bread and pizza bianca which is his version of a round pizza in pala.
Alex

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2020, 04:51:48 AM »
I meant add all the components to the mixer, the Priore says that using tap water and not ice cold water helps.  I wrote use the beater, I meant use the paddle/beater and not the whisk.

1. Run for ~20 seconds at slowest speed to wet the mix.
2. Run at full speed for about 4 minutes, it's done when the dough pulls away from the sides and bottom.
3. Wait 5 minutes and then run the mixer at full speed for 10 seconds.
4. Wait 5 minutes and then run the mixer at full speed for 10 seconds.

5. Get the dough on your bench and do a series of folds (3-4) spaced 10 minutes apart.  The dough will tell you how many it needs.  At this point it helps to wet your hands, especially for the first fold, but you will feel how it strengthens up and dries on the outside.

You don't need to make a super strong dough as it won't be fermented for days, it only needs to keep enough strength/structure for a few hours.  If you don't build enough strength then the dough will tend to elongate too much when you want to open it and transfer to the peal.

6. Let it ferment at room temperature to about 2.5 times the volume in a 2L oiled and covered square container before opening and baking.

7. Bake at about 275C on a stone for about 7-8 minutes, but preferably on a well heated stone as this kind of pizza needs a lot of heat from below to get the best oven spring and a well cooked bottom.

I'm not sure if step 3 and 4 really are needed, but the dough does get a bit more strength.

I can only encourage everyone interested in trying this procedure and judging for themselves!  It's relatively easy, super fast and convenient, and no one that's tried has so far complained about thirst or indigestion.  The biggest hurdle is really opening it up and getting it into the oven, but practice makes perfect! :D

Regarding FDT, I don't remember but I think it was around 25C.  The Priore says that it's not a problem even if the dough reaches 28C.  This is a big difference from the spiral mixer where I've been taught to keep the temperature low, preferably by using ice water.

Alex, I've been thinking about your Giorilli comment and purines.  Won't the same potential problem occur given the amount of yeast one traditionally puts in a biga, and also considering that they multiply in the biga due to aerobic conditions?  What about people that put higher amounts of yeast in the dough in order to cold ferment it?
Jack

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2020, 12:10:31 PM »
Hey Jack, thanks for clarifying. This makes a lot of sense. It's essentially as if you're doing 2 sets of stretch folds in the machine and 3-4 by hand bringing the total to 5-6 stretch folds. That sounds like a solid amount to build a lot of strength in a such a liquid dough. I also really like using the planetary in this way because I don't have to ice the water, fridge the flour and clean the spiral mixer

I'm with you that opening the dough is the biggest hurdle for me with this style. Unfortunately there is no one in my area who can teach me in person, so I just try to learn from YouTube videos. What I learned so far is that you need to seal the edges first with the fingertips to strengthen them and prevent air leaking out, and then do the middle. I also found that ideally, I only need to go through the center once or twice - if I do it too many times I get a flat dough. Finally, I'm not 100% sure when I need to pop the bubbles and when to leave them alone. I'm leaning towards only popping transparent bubbles - those are too thin and will burn for sure. The rest, I leave. What do you think?

Finally, about the purines. I did more research on this, and I think Giorilli is not correct about this. Or maybe he's really talking about much larger quantities of yeast than we're using here.

https://elevatehealthaz.com/wp-content/Purine%20Table.pdf

If you look at this list, yeast contains 680mg purines in the form of uric acid per 100g of yeast. You're using 2g yeast, which means 13.6mg purines.

The same amount of purines is found in 13.6/(110/100) = a measly 12.4g of beef filet, or 13.6/(239/100) = 5.7g of anchovies

In other words, relative to other meaty foods, the amount of purines in yeast is completely insignificant.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 12:13:51 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2020, 02:22:44 PM »
Hey Jack, thanks for clarifying. This makes a lot of sense. It's essentially as if you're doing 2 sets of stretch folds in the machine and 3-4 by hand bringing the total to 5-6 stretch folds. That sounds like a solid amount to build a lot of strength in a such a liquid dough. I also really like using the planetary in this way because I don't have to ice the water, fridge the flour and clean the spiral mixer

I'm super happy to finally have found a use for my KA!  I've only made enough dough in it for a 700g pizza, don't know if it would work for two..

To imagine that making the same 700g dough in my spiral mixer takes me 12-13 minutes! :)

But I think this also depends on the size of the dough, 700g is very minimal for the spiral...  If I make a larger dough I can normally close it under 10 minutes (depending on how difficult my flour mix is).

Quote
I'm with you that opening the dough is the biggest hurdle for me with this style. Unfortunately there is no one in my area who can teach me in person, so I just try to learn from YouTube videos. What I learned so far is that you need to seal the edges first with the fingertips to strengthen them and prevent air leaking out, and then do the middle. I also found that ideally, I only need to go through the center once or twice - if I do it too many times I get a flat dough. Finally, I'm not 100% sure when I need to pop the bubbles and when to leave them alone. I'm leaning towards only popping transparent bubbles - those are too thin and will burn for sure. The rest, I leave. What do you think?

I think I need to practice very much! :D

Making the dough in four hours is a great incentive for baking though! ;D

I suspect that I'm too firm with my finger tips causing my pala to lose air :(  Next try I'm going to try to handle it more delicately, and also try to create more structure with folds.

I think starting with the edges might be more needed for larger pans, like 40x60.  Look at this video from the Priore, he shows two ways to open the pala, one with just spolvero and the other with oil.  Also check out how firm it still is when he transfers it to the peal.  And I'm very jealous of that peal..!  I just have a normal wooden peal, I really have to see about constructing something similar, though the wooden peal works, it's just more exciting! :D



If you look at this list, yeast contains 680mg purines in the form of uric acid per 100g of yeast. You're using 2g yeast, which means 13.6mg purines.

The same amount of purines is found in 13.6/(110/100) = a measly 12.4g of beef filet, or 13.6/(239/100) = 5.7g of anchovies

In other words, relative to other meaty foods, the amount of purines in yeast is completely insignificant.

I'm relieved! :D

I think the biggest sin and maybe the one that hit the stomach the hardest is not cooking the dough enough!  Raw dough is the one thing that is hard on my stomach, except for maybe too much alcohol and hot toppings! :)
Jack

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2020, 04:13:53 PM »
Nice video! The first technique seems to result in a taller pizza - that's pretty close to what I do.

Ian Spumanti agrees with you in this video regarding digestibility. My Italian isn't quite there yet, but what I understood is that you don't have to ferment 72 hours, 150 hours to make a digestible dough. The most important is proper cooking. As an example, he says that a fully baked cracker is more digestible than an undercooked pizza. It makes sense to me. Wet undercooked dough just seems like it would be hard to break down for the body since it has a gluey consistency.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 04:21:02 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2020, 04:39:42 PM »
Nice video! The first technique seems to result in a taller pizza - that's pretty close to what I do.

The second dough was also the one he had already done when the video started, and he had put it into the fridge to slow it down.  IIRC he said something about it having less strength than the other one, so he decided to use a different method and to show how to do it with oil instead.

Quote
Ian Spumanti agrees with you in this video regarding digestibility. My Italian isn't quite there yet, but what I understood is that you don't have to ferment 72 hours, 150 hours to make a digestible dough. The most important is proper cooking. As an example, he says that a fully baked cracker is more digestible than an undercooked pizza. It makes sense to me. Wet undercooked dough just seems like it would be hard to break down for the body since it has a gluey consistency.

Nice video, and yes it's my experience too.  Uncooked dough makes me uncomfortable, that's why I tend to use lower hydration for my Napoletana.  I think it also depends on your flour, dough making, and foremost of all your oven, what will be the right hydration to use.

I probably prefer to cook my pala at a slightly lower temperature and for a bit longer (maybe 10 minutes), or even cook it and then reheat it.  Or cut it in two horizontally and reheat both sides crumb down, for what the Italians call the "Double Crunch".  Once nice and warm fill it with what you want, and it's just great!
Jack

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2020, 09:34:52 PM »
The second dough was also the one he had already done when the video started, and he had put it into the fridge to slow it down.  IIRC he said something about it having less strength than the other one, so he decided to use a different method and to show how to do it with oil instead.

Nice video, and yes it's my experience too.  Uncooked dough makes me uncomfortable, that's why I tend to use lower hydration for my Napoletana.  I think it also depends on your flour, dough making, and foremost of all your oven, what will be the right hydration to use.

I probably prefer to cook my pala at a slightly lower temperature and for a bit longer (maybe 10 minutes), or even cook it and then reheat it.  Or cut it in two horizontally and reheat both sides crumb down, for what the Italians call the "Double Crunch".  Once nice and warm fill it with what you want, and it's just great!

Ah interesting, I have seen the recipes from Renato Bosco on the Doppio Crunch, but I didn't realize you reheat it crumb side down. Cool!
Alex

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2020, 05:19:50 AM »
Ah interesting, I have seen the recipes from Renato Bosco on the Doppio Crunch, but I didn't realize you reheat it crumb side down. Cool!

Well you can, but you could also reheat it crumb side up! :)

But I think there are other techniques that are also called double crunch.  For instance you can divide the dough in two before the bulk, then after you have stretched the first and gotten it into the pan, you cover it with olive oil (and possibly some water), then you extend and put the second on top of it and bake it like a single teglia/pala.

These can then also be separated and stuffed, or reheated with either side down and then stuffed.  Plenty of creative ways to work with pizza in teglia / alla pala, and I suppose pinza.  I actually like the idea of the pinza and can see why it's become so popular!

I don't think the terms are set in stone! :D

Edit: You can also stuff the pizza and then reheat it with the filling inside, I think this would also be called a double crunch.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 05:23:15 AM by amolapizza »
Jack

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2020, 11:40:13 AM »
Well you can, but you could also reheat it crumb side up! :)

But I think there are other techniques that are also called double crunch.  For instance you can divide the dough in two before the bulk, then after you have stretched the first and gotten it into the pan, you cover it with olive oil (and possibly some water), then you extend and put the second on top of it and bake it like a single teglia/pala.

These can then also be separated and stuffed, or reheated with either side down and then stuffed.  Plenty of creative ways to work with pizza in teglia / alla pala, and I suppose pinza.  I actually like the idea of the pinza and can see why it's become so popular!

I don't think the terms are set in stone! :D

Edit: You can also stuff the pizza and then reheat it with the filling inside, I think this would also be called a double crunch.

I hope you can play with Pinsa more. The easiest way is to make 90% high protein, 10% rice flour blend, and then do everything else the same. Form 250g balls and bake directly on the stone - parbake for 5 mins at 300C, cool for 5+ minutes, top and bake for 3-4 minutes to finish. For me, the results are much much better than pizza in teglia.
Alex

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2020, 01:33:10 PM »
So many things to test and so little time, also out of health considerations I can't eat too much pizza either!

Still I might try to make some pinza some day, it's really like a small individual pala!  Personally I much prefer the pala to the teglia.  It's just slightly more difficult to pull off.  I have to be precise in my oven, as there is little room to spare.  With the teglia you have have time to stretch the dough to fit it and it's easy to get in the oven, a square 30x39cm pala is harder to get into the oven (mine measures 35x40cm)

I'd also have to take into account that the rice (and possibly soy) flour, makes it harder to make a high hydration dough as they don't form gluten!  An 80/20% mix would take my saccorosso from W 320 to W 256, so it ought to be doable.

But the thing also is, much as it's enlightening to bake many different styles, for instance I've noticed that learning to bake tonda romana made my napoletana better, on the other hand it's smart to stay with a style for a while to get better at it.
Jack

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2020, 02:13:30 PM »
So many things to test and so little time, also out of health considerations I can't eat too much pizza either!

Still I might try to make some pinza some day, it's really like a small individual pala!  Personally I much prefer the pala to the teglia.  It's just slightly more difficult to pull off.  I have to be precise in my oven, as there is little room to spare.  With the teglia you have have time to stretch the dough to fit it and it's easy to get in the oven, a square 30x39cm pala is harder to get into the oven (mine measures 35x40cm)

I'd also have to take into account that the rice (and possibly soy) flour, makes it harder to make a high hydration dough as they don't form gluten!  An 80/20% mix would take my saccorosso from W 320 to W 256, so it ought to be doable.

But the thing also is, much as it's enlightening to bake many different styles, for instance I've noticed that learning to bake tonda romana made my napoletana better, on the other hand it's smart to stay with a style for a while to get better at it.

I hear you - hard to make enough experiments without affecting the health. Haha. I try to do once every week to two weeks, but I usually do more.

I don't make the big pala, so I'm not sure. But Pinsa is easier to shape and bake than teglia - you only need to stretch a 250g ball to width 20 cm - 22 cm by length 32 cm - 35 cm. In my pizza stone, I can parbake two of them at a time. I think the stone to dough contact provides both significantly better oven spring as well as more cruncy bottom which from an eating perspective is superior in my opinion. But I haven't mastered pizza in teglia yet - maybe it's possible to make that one amazing too, I just haven't yet.

Also, I would recommend skipping soy flour - it tastes a bit funky and makes the dough very sticky. It's also an allergen for some people. My hunch is that it will be eliminated from the definition of Pinsa in the future. I would do 90% saccorosso and 10% something else - rye, spelt and rice are all great. The dough will be very workable as these all absorb water well. Rice flour doesn't form gluten but it soaks up water nicely.
Alex

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2020, 02:24:14 PM »
I agree that crunchy is good for this!

I also have the impression that the oven spring is better without the teglia!

The addition of rice flour gives a lot of carbs!  Not sure about the soy flour, I can't say that I noticed a funky taste the few times I've eaten it.  Maybe it depends on the soy flour itself?


Jack

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