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Author Topic: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala  (Read 5272 times)

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2020, 03:27:34 PM »
I think the idea behind the addition of rice is to reduce the total gluten content in the dough.
The idea behind adding soy is to increase the protein content in the dough because it's 50% protein.

You're probably right about soy taste. I may have to try some other soy flours to see if they taste better.
Alex

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Offline Yael

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2020, 12:58:55 AM »
From what I read on internet, soy flour shouldn't exceed 0.5%. I remember a test I made, I added more (I think it was around 10 or 15%), and it was a disaster, with a huge vegetable smell. 0.5% gave me a pretty good result.
The reason why I added much more during my 1st test is that I had friends in France using 10 or 15% soy flour from Spadoni or other brands, but this was actually a mix! And what I bought was pure soy flour...!
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2020, 09:21:37 AM »
From what I read on internet, soy flour shouldn't exceed 0.5%. I remember a test I made, I added more (I think it was around 10 or 15%), and it was a disaster, with a huge vegetable smell. 0.5% gave me a pretty good result.
The reason why I added much more during my 1st test is that I had friends in France using 10 or 15% soy flour from Spadoni or other brands, but this was actually a mix! And what I bought was pure soy flour...!
Yael,

When I was playing around with Tom Lehmann's NY style dough recipe, I took a stab at adding some soybean flour to the dough to make a frozen version of the dough. I used 5% soy flour. I believe that I got that number from an article I read somewhere before revising the recipe. You can see my results at Reply 721 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg62457#msg62457

Peter

Offline DoouBall

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2020, 01:22:20 PM »
From what I read on internet, soy flour shouldn't exceed 0.5%. I remember a test I made, I added more (I think it was around 10 or 15%), and it was a disaster, with a huge vegetable smell. 0.5% gave me a pretty good result.
The reason why I added much more during my 1st test is that I had friends in France using 10 or 15% soy flour from Spadoni or other brands, but this was actually a mix! And what I bought was pure soy flour...!

That's fascinating! Do you have a link to this information? I can't imagine any possible health benefits from adding so little soy. The ratio I came by multiple times is 80% strong white flour, 15% rice flour, 5% soy flour. However, if the intention for that 5% soy flour is to be a mix like your Spadoni mix, then the total pure soy flour content might be significantly less, closer to the 0.5% you mention.

To be fair, the one time I tried soy, I used a roasted soy flour, which is probably not a fair comparison. I found that 5% was waaaaaaaaay too much. It completely took over and dominated the smell and flavor profile of the dough. The dough also had poor oven spring compared to not using soy.

Also, I just found this:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6891578/

According to this study, anything starting from 4% soy flour decreases the volume of the loaf (for bread...should apply to pizza alla pala too).
« Last Edit: June 05, 2020, 01:25:43 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

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Offline Yael

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2020, 02:12:13 AM »
Peter,

Was it pure soy flour? 5% seems a lot to me... I remember when I tried 0.5% (2 years ago), I could already smell the vegetable smell  :-X

Doouball,

I found my notes back! The test I made was 4 years ago, and it was 20% soy flour. I wrote: "huge smell of vegetable, a little bit like gluten-free dough" and then after 72H CF and baking: "taste actually ok!! No airy crumb".

And about the links, I found 2:

La farine de soja

  C'est une plante légumineuse grimpante dont la hauteur atteint en moyenne 80 centimètres à 1 mètre. La farine de soja est fabriquée à partir des fèves de soja et tourteaux (résidu de l'extraction de l'huile de soja).
Elle est cultivée aux Etats Unis, Chine, Brésil, Argentine et l'U.R.S.S.
La farine de soja ne contient pas de gluten, est riche en protéines, en matières grasses et pauvre en amidon.
Sa valeur alimentaire est très élevée.

Action : comme la farine de fève, la farine de soja a tendance à faire blanchir la pâte du fait de la présence de la même enzyme ( la lipoxygènase ) mais en quantité plus importante. C'est pour cette raison que son incorporation (au moulin exclusivement ) se fait dans des proportions moindres ( 0.5% du poids de la farine ).
Elle participe également aux renforcement du réseau glutineux et assoupli la pâte grâce à ses propriétés émulsifiantes.

Google translation:
"It is a climbing leguminous plant whose height reaches on average 80 centimeters to 1 meter. Soybean flour is made from soybeans and [tourteaux] (residue from the extraction of soybean oil).
It is cultivated in the United States, China, Brazil, Argentina and the U.S.S.R.
Soy flour does not contain gluten, is rich in protein, fat and low in starch.
Its nutritional value is very high.

Action: like bean flour, soy flour tends to make the dough whiten due to the presence of the same enzyme (lipoxygenase) but in greater quantity. It is for this reason that its incorporation (in the mill exclusively) is done in smaller proportions (0.5% of the weight of the flour).
It also contributes to the strengthening of the glutinous network and softens the dough thanks to its emulsifying properties."

and

11    FARINE DE FEVES OU DE SOJA    (Adjuvant)
       
Ajoutées en meunerie
¨      Apporte des ENZYMES OXYDANTES
¨      Améliore la Force de la pâte
¨      Augmente le Volume des pains
¨      Active la Fermentation de la pâte
¨      Favorise la Coloration de la croûte
 
INCONVÉNIENTS (principalement en pétrissage intensifié)
¨      Blanchiment excessif de la pâte et de la mie du pain
¨      Altération de la Flaveur et de la Saveur du pain
DOSAGE : Fève 2% ; Soja 0,5%

Google translation:
"Added in milling
¨ Brings OXIDIZING ENZYMES
¨ Improves Dough Strength
¨ Increase the volume of the breads
¨ Activates the Fermentation of the dough
¨ Promotes the coloring of the crust
 
DISADVANTAGES (mainly in intensified kneading)
¨ Excessive blanching of the dough and the crumb of the bread
¨ Alteration of Flavor and Flavor of bread
DOSAGE: Broad bean 2%; Soy 0.5%"

Do you think there are different soy flours like there are different malt flours?
What I bought in China was for sure pure 100% soy flour...
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 02:16:50 AM by Yael »
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Offline Yael

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #45 on: June 06, 2020, 02:29:38 AM »
[...]
Do you think there are different soy flours like there are different malt flours?
What I bought in China was for sure pure 100% soy flour...

I think I found an answer:
https://books.google.com/books?id=jjrSUAtkXAYC&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69&dq=boulangerie+incorporation+farine+de+soja&source=bl&ots=99_KudaLie&sig=ACfU3U03_l_53uGRyI4KnXADTLbKRBlOPg&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj9qNmqxezpAhUbHzQIHTN0CJ8Q6AEwAXoECBkQAQ#v=onepage&q=boulangerie%20incorporation%20farine%20de%20soja&f=false

There are indeed different soy flours:
- with enzymatic activity (p.68 §4.3.2 of the book of the link above), "up to 0.5% for bread and brioche in the EU";
- without enzymatic activity (p.68-69), mostly used for cakes "3-5% incorporation dosage"
- flour made from "tourteaux"* (?!) (p.69 §4.4.2, like the Oldsmobile): they say something like 'no special problem till 10%'.

That would make sense!

Moreover, at p.70, it's written "Considerable amounts of soy flour (1 to 2% of the flour weight) are used in bread making..."
This means they seem to consider 1 to 2% a lot..

* tourteaux: the way I understand it, it's the residue from the oil making (like coffee ground?) and they make flour from it.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 02:35:21 AM by Yael »
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline DoouBall

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2020, 11:36:06 AM »
Good information, thanks for posting Yael!

I think we had practically the same result - strong vegetable smell in the dough which almost completely dissapeared after baking. Tighter, more closed crumb compared to the same formula without soy flour.
I really don't see any need to use the soy flour at this point - I just find other grains to work much better. I'll take semolina, rice, rye or spelt additions over soy.

Maybe one day, I can get the official Pinsa Romana flour and then my eyes will be opened to the wonder of soy. Unfortunately, it's impossible to buy in the US for home bakers, so I'll just keep making my own blends for now.

https://www.pinsaforyou.com/prodotto/farina-pinsa-romana/


Alex

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Offline Yael

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2020, 09:05:05 PM »
Doouball,

Maybe you can try the 0.5% I'm talking about and see how it goes?
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Offline DoouBall

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2020, 09:57:12 PM »
Doouball,

Maybe you can try the 0.5% I'm talking about and see how it goes?

I would but I don't have any regular soy flour. I'm pretty sure if I use the roasted soy flour I did last time, I won't be happy with the results.
Alex

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2020, 12:30:38 PM »
Doouball,

Maybe you can try the 0.5% I'm talking about and see how it goes?

Yael, I was doing a bit more research and found Petra 5010, their flagship Pinsa flour:

https://shop.farinaearte.it/it/home/148-petra-5010.html?search_query=5010&results=1#/7-peso_confezione-12_5_kg

If you look at the ingredients for their flour, by downloading the spec sheet, you'll see "Farina Di Grano Tenero Tipo 0, Farina di Riso" - in other words just wheat flour and rice flour. Petra is arguably one of the best mills in Italy, and for them to make a decision to skip soy in their Pinsa mix feels like a validation of my independent decision to do the same.

Alex

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #50 on: June 11, 2020, 01:12:41 PM »
FWIW, I looked at my soy flour and it's also toasted!   :(
Jack

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Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2020, 10:34:39 PM »
Second try.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2020, 04:31:09 AM »
Nice!

I really have to get back to making this someday.  I need to work on my technique! :)
Jack

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Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2020, 11:40:59 AM »
I cheated and let it ferment in pan as an experiment. Also the combo of the Pecorino, Oregano, Pepper and Olive oil gave it a slight lemon taste which was nice. Not sure where that came from. Will be making it again as it is almost like an emergency focaccia dough for me.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2020, 04:24:25 AM »
I kind of suspected that you let it rise in the pan, due to the crumb profile.  If one learns to extend it and move it to the pan or to cook it as a pala the resulting crumb will be more open.  Still no shame in making focaccia, it's also really tasty!

I suppose you could call it an emergency dough, but personally I think the result is really good and far more convenient than a 2 day fridge maturation.
Jack

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Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2020, 10:07:05 AM »
Next time I will go back to the more traditional method with a few extra folds. Either way it was very tasty. I still think I prefer my current Focaccia recipe, just needs an overnight CF. But having this ready in 4-5 hours is a great option.

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2020, 04:24:52 PM »
I kind of suspected that you let it rise in the pan, due to the crumb profile.  If one learns to extend it and move it to the pan or to cook it as a pala the resulting crumb will be more open.  Still no shame in making focaccia, it's also really tasty!

I suppose you could call it an emergency dough, but personally I think the result is really good and far more convenient than a 2 day fridge maturation.
On my daily walk today with Exile on Main street in my ears I thought about your statement on the crumb profile. Why would the crumb be more open from moving it to the pan instead of rising it in the pan? I didn't stretch the dough in the pan I just left it covered and it spread a lot during ferment. Then I spread it a bit more before baking. I don't understand.

Offline DoouBall

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2020, 05:44:45 PM »
On my daily walk today with Exile on Main street in my ears I thought about your statement on the crumb profile. Why would the crumb be more open from moving it to the pan instead of rising it in the pan? I didn't stretch the dough in the pan I just left it covered and it spread a lot during ferment. Then I spread it a bit more before baking. I don't understand.

Stefano Callegari explains it perfectly at 7:03s into this video:

Alex

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Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #58 on: July 08, 2020, 09:30:09 PM »
Interesting but not right on point. I didn't roll out the dough, nor did I roughly stretch it. It self stretched mostly and I gently stretched it a bit more. It wasn't deflated, then allowed to rise again.

Must be another reason for it.

Offline Yael

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2020, 01:59:44 AM »
Interesting but not right on point. I didn't roll out the dough, nor did I roughly stretch it. It self stretched mostly and I gently stretched it a bit more. It wasn't deflated, then allowed to rise again.

Must be another reason for it.

I think what he says in the video makes sense.

I understand it this way:
- bake 100%-proofed dough = small compact alveole
- bake 70%-proofed dough = bigger alveole (those 2 points would be in accordance with what he says).

But then, there's the handling factor:
- when you handle then bake a 100%-proofed dough = you'll have big alveole, because while pressing with your fingers, small bubbles will burst into bigger ones. This is the case with our classic/Neapolitan pizza, we generally get an airy rim although we press the dough (some say "we push the bubbles to the edge", not sure about the accuracy, but that's the idea).
- if you handle then bake a 70%-proofed dough = you'll have small alveole, and possibly an unsuccessful bake (dough being too compact, bad heat transfer within the crust)

(Just use the same dough to make one pan pizza and one classic pizza, you should notice the same differences)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 02:02:12 AM by Yael »
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