Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: Steve on May 20, 2004, 12:47:52 PM

Title: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Steve on May 20, 2004, 12:47:52 PM
Found this at:
http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/1207


PMQ Think Tank

Posted By: pizzashark
Date: 5/7/03 20:10

Dough:

10 LB High Gluten Flour (Gold Medal Full Strength works well)
8 oz Cottonseed Oil
3 oz salt
1 oz Baker's yeast (beer yeast)
84 oz Water

Combine yeast, oil, and 1 cup flour with water at 100-110 degrees. Mix 2 minutes and then let rest 15-20 minutes until foamy. You can add some sugar to enhance the shelf life of the dough but I don't recommend it as the sugar content will brown the crust too fast under the high heat.

Mix salt (we used Diamond superfine crystals) in with the flour seperately. Then add flour/salt mixture and mix until well kneeded and developed... We would kneed on low speed for almost 30 minutes. I know that sounds like a great deal of time but that's the way we did it and the dough would stretch with the utmost of ease. In short, we beat the crap out of the dough.

Portion balls, cover and refrigerate for 8 hours. Proof at room temperature for 2 hours prior to hand stretching.

Bake at 550 degrees 5-6 minutes on a pre-heated hearth.

This is a somewhat sticky dough and requires flour to be applied before stretching and such. The high moisture content in this dough is necessary due to the hearth bake and the high heat it is exposed to. This is an authentic N.Y. style crust. Thin and crispy with a puffed edge. The pizza peel should be dusted with a good deal semolina flour to allow easy placement in the oven. If your dough is still sticking to the peel you are using too much sauce, aren't topping it fast enough, or not stretching such that you have a 1/8" center. In short... Get it into the oven FAST! Too much sauce is ALWAYS a bad thing when it comes to NY Style Pizza. You are "painting" the crust with sauce... that's all.

The dough will hold refrigerated for 3 days. When you begin to see black dots appearing on the dough you know the yeast is beginning to die... Black dots are not bad and they won't show up after baking but you have about a day left to use it.

If you get bubbling of the dough during cooking it is usually because the dough did not come up to room temperature before it was stretched. Cold dough tends to bubble.

Sauce:

2 #10 cans of Stanislaus Full Red Fresh Pack
1 # 10 can of water
3 oz fresh grated romano cheese
Add Oregano, Basil, Ground Black Pepper, etc. as you see fit. If you want the best dried spices buy them from Penzeys. They have a website and will quote bulk prices. If you can get fresh spend the money and blow them away.

One thing about dried oregano... Unlike Basil, Dried oregano takes time to release its flavor... More time than a 6 minute bake will allow. Take your oregano and mix it with hot water from the sauce recipe and heat it to a boil for a while. Then add that mix to your sauce. Basil can go in anytime because it releases its flavor very quickly during the baking. Also add some citric acid or lemon juice to really bring up the fresh tomato taste. A little salt won't hurt but I don't recommend it as the cheese and toppings usually have plenty. When you bake at 550 degrees on a hearth you are searing the entire top of the pizza into one great blend of flavor. Salt from the cheese and toppings will flow through the pizza.

Use a high quality cheese. You spend more but it costs you less as you are using less. You want this crust to be tasted, not burried. Also... before you place the cheese on the pizza give the center 3" or so an extra dash of that grated Romano. The sharp taste of the Romano in the first few bites will stick with your customer as they eat their way to the edge.

I wish you all the best with your pizza ventures and hope this can help some people. In time I will have my patented brick conveyor oven available for everyone to test and I welcome all inquires at my e-mail address.

Until then...

Passionate about N.Y. Style Pizza...

Pizza Shark
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Foccaciaman on May 20, 2004, 07:57:02 PM
 :)Wow thanks for finding this Steve.

The point about cooking the Oregano was very interesting since I just started going to cold uncooked sauce since my 6 in 1  came.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Foccaciaman on May 21, 2004, 07:59:33 PM
I was just reviewing the above recipe and I was just wondering if it is possible for only 84 oz. of water to be used with 10lbs of flour. Seems like it would be too dry. ???
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pizzacko on May 21, 2004, 10:40:32 PM
While were still talking about dough, how do you guys mix your ingredients together? I usually mix the sugar, yeast and water first and then add this solution to the flour and salt. But in Reinharts book it says to mix all of them at the same time. Is there really a difference?
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: canadave on May 23, 2004, 11:48:43 PM
RoadPizza, you mean add the yeast/water/sugar solution last to the flour/salt, right?  Or did you mean add the water and sugar to the flour/salt, then add the yeast separately to the mix?
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: canadave on May 24, 2004, 11:27:51 AM
Thanks RP...last related question: and this is for any type of yeast, right? "Quick-rise", ADY, etc.?  Or does the type of yeast make a difference?

The reason I'm so persistent is because I'm on the verge of making a new batch of dough (with my new weigh-scale, bought after reading the positive comments of others on this forum!) :)

Dave
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: canadave on May 24, 2004, 08:33:24 PM
Thanks for all the info...I'll see if I can get my hands on a thermometer too.

Dave
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Randy on May 26, 2004, 01:36:27 PM
SAF yeast has instructions on the package that recommends mixing the fast rise yeast with 2/3 the flour and add the water at 120- 130F.  I have been using this method for several years now without a problem.  I also mix the sugar with the hot water that is something I learned from the forum.
 ;D
Randy
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pizzaholic on May 27, 2004, 09:41:47 AM
Randy
I hate to guess your method of making dough, so,  for the sake of the forum could you post a step by step dough recipe(If you havent already, if so give us the thread??)
You seem to have a real grasp on the technique that yeilds a good dough.
Pizzaholic
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Randy on May 27, 2004, 10:31:18 AM
Sorry RoadPizza, if I messed up your thread on this.   I was not questioning your expertise in my reply only noting the way I do it on a small batch basis.
Interesting discussion.
 8)
Randy
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Randy on May 27, 2004, 10:55:29 AM
Have you ever been to this web page?
http://ww2.kingarthurflour.com/cgibin/htmlos.cgi/32180.2.2546955829914216060 (http://ww2.kingarthurflour.com/cgibin/htmlos.cgi/32180.2.2546955829914216060)
Randy
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: canadave on May 27, 2004, 11:41:53 AM
Randy,

So if I'm reading that webpage right, it's saying the water temp going in should be around 55-60 degrees?

--Dave
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Randy on May 27, 2004, 11:49:41 AM
Dave, I'm not sure because I think I read some where that the dough temp should be 82 F before going in the cooler.  I have never applied this information to myu pizza dough but i think I will based on what RoadPizza said.

Randy
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pierre on May 27, 2004, 03:03:59 PM
Dave, I'm not sure because I think I read some where that the dough temp should be 82 F before going in the cooler.  I have never applied this information to myu pizza dough but i think I will based on what RoadPizza said.

I think it was Tom Lehmann, the Dough Doctor who recommends that "off the hook" dough temp for several types of crust. I've spoken to a Master Baker here in Germany a while ago and he recommended a temperature between 78°F and 85°. In general Bakeries usually use their dough relatively quickly, mostly as soon as the 1st rise.

But what RoadPizza recommends (cold water) is correct if the dough should be retarded for a longer period of 1 or 2 Days so the dough does ferment too much and not get an overly strong Ferment-taste or odor. The final rise is done when the dough boxes are pulled from the fridge and are soon to be used in the assembly line or prep-table....

Another thing the Master Baker mentioned is that you should try to use as less yeast as possible in your recipes. While a yeast taste may be wanted in some recipes, it is best to cut back as much you can. Yeast is an Aroma eater.It will take away alot of the aroma found in Wheat. In Italy they use much less yeast than that what is used here in Germany or even the USA.

The recommendations on the packaging of the yeast companies state here 1 pkg (7gr or 0.25 oz) per 500gr (1 pound) of flour is too much. The Italians use somewhere between a 1/4 to 1/2 pkg per 1kg flour.

I have not yet experimented with that low a yeast content, but will try next time with my New York Recipe.

Pierre
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Randy on May 27, 2004, 04:10:04 PM
Pierre I have not noticed personally a yeast smell in my pizza dough that goes right in the cooler but I have noticed that tendency on same day rise breads.  I use a package for a pound of flour only out of  not having to measure the yeast.  I have tried Peter Rinehart’s recipe that uses much less yeast than mine but could tell a notable difference as compared to my recipe.  But then again, your referenced professionals and Peter’s book are professionals and I bow to their expertise.
In a bit of last minute research I found this warning on the SAF site:
·   Add cold liquids to yeast mixture. A high powered food processor heats ingredients as it vigorously blends. Using cold liquids moderates the temperature of the dough to within the ideal 77-80ºF range.
Randy
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pierre on May 27, 2004, 04:26:53 PM
Right Randy, that's what's called the friction Factor, that all professional bakers need to account for when mixing their doughs. Professional Equipment has a detailed listing of frictions for the different attachments used. the water temperature is adjusted so that the "off the hook" temperature of the dough is within specifications....

For private or household food processors, everyone needs to find out for themselves the temperature increase due to friction or just use trial and error.

The Master Baker I spoke to works for one of the major Flour producers here in Germany. He was very talkative and glad to pass on his knowledge. He stated also that baking is not cooking. Baking is a bit more technological, meaning that many parameters have to met or kept to get just the results one wants for a given recipe. If you're off a bit on one of them, your final bake will not be the same as expected.

Pierre
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pierre on May 29, 2004, 02:51:14 PM
just prepared a New Yorker Crust using on 1/4 teaspoon (1,25ml) of Yeast to see if there is a difference in taste. Let's see what happens in the oven if the Crust still puffs up like I want.

Let you know later.....

Pierre
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Randy on May 29, 2004, 04:49:56 PM
Interesting test, I look forward to the results.  How much sugar did you use if any?

Randy
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pierre on May 29, 2004, 06:10:47 PM
The results are in....

In my Recipe I usually used about 3/4 Tsp Dry active Yeast for 250 gr of Flour. I also use 1 Tbsp Sugar, but added an extra 1 Tsp this time to make sure the yeast gets a better start.

The dough took about 1/2 hour to start rising (not much longer than usual). The rise was in all just about the same in the 3 hours I gave it as I get when using more yeast.

The edge of the crust puffed up just the same in the oven as when using more yeast. The taste of the crust was different, the texture was very good just as usual with some large pores and some small.

Randy, I believe your recipe for New Yorker Crust has more yeast than mine, It might be interesting to see what you think about the taste when using a small amount of yeast. The difference should be greater in your recipe than in mine.

I think I will make 2 batches next time and test side by side.

Pierre

I'll post a picture tomorrow.

Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pierre on May 30, 2004, 03:30:57 PM
here's the picture. Like I said, no difference in baked crust.

Pierre
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: canadave on May 30, 2004, 03:34:30 PM
*drooool*.....that looks delicious!!!!!
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pierre on May 30, 2004, 03:41:11 PM
That's just how it tasted too!! Yum! :D

Too stupid that I didn't prepare some dough for tonight...

Pierre
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: canadave on May 30, 2004, 04:06:06 PM
I may have missed this, but Pierre, have you ever posted your recipe/techniques to the forum?  I'd like to give it a shot :)

Dave
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pierre on May 30, 2004, 04:24:50 PM
Nope, you can't have it! It's mine, mine, mine.

ok! good! you can have it. It's not been posted yet.

It's 22.15 (10.15 pm) GMT +1 hour here in germany.. let's see how fast I can type it in. If you dont see it tonight then you will tomorrow.

Till later...

Pierre
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Steve on May 30, 2004, 06:07:07 PM
Nice pizza!  8)
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pierre on May 30, 2004, 06:07:45 PM
New Yorker Pizza Crust

250 grams High Gluten Flour (13% or more)
180 mililiters Water ca. 38°C (if you do a fridge rise, you can use colder water)

1 tablespoon Sugar
1 teaspoon Salt
1/4 teaspoon Yeast (I usually use about 1/2 to 3/4 teaspoon)

1 tablespoon Olive oil
1 teaspoon Sesame oil (roasted. My secret, but not anymore....can be found in the Chinese food section)


1) Mix flour, sugar, salt, dry yeast in large bowl. Heat water to ca. 39° C. Add almost all the water, holding back maybe 20ml. Let sit about 30 seconds.

2) Turn on mixer with dough hooks and stir at low speed first then high speed for 5 minutes.

The flour will look scrapy at first and slowly come together, add the rest of the water. A ball will form. The dough will appear be slightly sticky at first.

3) Now let rest 5 minutes.

4) Add the oil. Turn on mixer again medium speed for 5 minutes. The Dough will get very slick and it will look as though the oil will not get mixed in, but after a minute or 2 the dough will form a ball again.

5) Let rest a minute, prepare a container where the dough can rise. Put a few drops of oil in the container and spread it with one of your hands. Rub both hands together so the palms are thinly oiled. Now you knead the dough between your hands.

6) Take the dough in your hands. The dough should have a silky, very smooth feel to it. If the dough is a little sticky yet don't worry. Roll the dough between your hands back and forth, pressing your hands together once in a while. The ball will form. Now fold the ball by stretching away from your body and placing the fold at the bottom of dough ball. Repeat this 4 or 5 times.

Roll the dough again between both hands till smooth and no seam can be seen.

7) Place the dough ball in container and flip once over again so the upside is lightly oiled. Put on lid. Let rise in refigerator overnight for next day use or in a warm place for use in a few hours.

8) The dough should rise after about 20-30 min. The rise is at first slow but after 3 hours it will be doubled or more. In the fridge you will also have a good rise within 24 hours.

9) Flour your workboard or peel slightly with flour. Remove the dough from container. Hold dough in both hands and fold over several times. Then reshape to a ball. Flour both sides of dough and press into a disc. Form the edge a bit by pressing in your thumb about 3/4 inch from the outer rim. Then using your fingertips flatten the center portion of the disc working your way around to the outer edge. Check the bottom every once in a while lifting the disc from the peel and use a few pinches of flour on the worksuface if necessary to prevent sticking.

10) now lift up dough and place over your fists. By pulling your hands apart you stretch the dough over your fists. Rotate the dough over your fists and pull your hands apart again. Continue until you have completed one rotation.

11) here's the fun part ( and the part where everyone will laugh when you screw up). Holding the dough over your fists, toss it up a bit rotating your fists in a clockwise (or counterclockwise) direction to give the dough a spin. You'd be surprised how fast you can learn that. The dough will get thinner after 4 or 5 spins.

12) Now stop. Place dough on peel again. Check the Diameter. Large enough yet?? If not stretch over your fists again a bit. Look for the not so thin places and stretch there more. Now check the size again.

13) Place on peel. Use a few pinches of cornmeal on the peel to prevent sticking. Shape the dough circular by lifting the edges and pulling a bit.

14) Now work fast. Spread your sauce on the dough. I found that 3-4 tablespoons of sauce enough for a 12" diameter. Spread the cheese and then the toppings on top. Twitch or shake the peel to make sure the pizza moves on the peel. And off into the well preheated oven onto your stone it goes.....

The stone should be preheated at the least 1/2 hour. If you use a screen, place the shaped dough directly on it. Top the pizza and place in oven with or without the stone.

makes enough dough for a 12-14" inch pizza depending on how much you stretch it.


Pierre    wow...now I need a break.

**Edit** corrected some typos. Clarified some text.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Steve on May 30, 2004, 06:13:15 PM
How do you get your edge to look so perfect?
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Foccaciaman on May 30, 2004, 08:59:11 PM
 ;DAhhh! what a looker of a pie Pierre I am dying for just a slice. Have not made pizza in a week.....  :(
Pizza even looks better on new computer I just got.
Had to replace the overgrown caculator that I was using. Starting to have too many problems so I washed the system and gave it to my 5 year old.
Gonna try your recipe this week along with a few others if it keeps raining like it has been.

Once again nice zza ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Randy on May 30, 2004, 11:02:35 PM
I will give it a try Pierre.  Good test and nice looking pizza.

Did it taste sweeter with less yeast?

Randy
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pierre on May 31, 2004, 05:59:57 PM
I will give it a try Pierre.  Good test and nice looking pizza.

Did it taste sweeter with less yeast?

Randy

Thanks! I try to stay within 4-5% sugar content so the dough is not sweet.

There is something I should mention though. The longer a dough is in the fridge the less sugar remains in the dough because the yeast consumes it with time. The sugar level here is enough for up to a 24 hour rise in the fridge. So you may need to adjust the sugar level for the planned rise time. If you don't, there will be no remaining sugar left that could caramelize during baking. You won't have the maillard or browning reactions expected.

If you need to compensate, you could also consider adding Lactose to the recipe (3 to 5%). Lactose is in dairy whey powder. The yeast cannot consume it, it is much less sweeter than sugar and the crust will brown up nicely even after 2 days of rising.....

Pierre
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pierre on May 31, 2004, 06:17:30 PM
How do you get your edge to look so perfect?

after forming the small disc, I form the edge using my thumb and or fingertips. I then start flattening the dough more, stretching it and just before I'm finished I shape the edge once more......

Pierre
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pierre on May 31, 2004, 06:26:32 PM
The real trick to making a good Pizza, is getting the crust brown and crisp before the cheese gets overdone.....
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Foccaciaman on June 01, 2004, 12:55:41 AM
I wish we could combine problems Pierre.
Mine is the complete opposite.
I need to get the cheese to melt before my crust gets to dry or burns. ;D
I'm gonna have to look at my last couple recipes to see where in the solution is if your having opposite effects.
Sure hope I wrote them down this time.......... >:(
thanks for the tip on the edge too ;D ;D
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: canadave on June 01, 2004, 07:02:03 PM
technical question here, Pierre....you mentioned that the longer a dough is in the fridge, the more sugar the yeast consume.  As the yeast consume the sugar, does that gradually reduce the final "sugary" tint of taste in the pizza crust, or is the sugar taste pre-determined simply by how much sugar you start with? i.e. as the yeast consume the sugar, is the sugar converted to CO2 or something non-tasteable?

Dave
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pierre on June 02, 2004, 03:50:29 PM
Dave,

The yeast consumes the sugars (sucrose, glucose, dextrose, maltose) and some of the by-products are CO², ethyl alcohol, ester's, aldehydes and flavanoids (enhance the flavor) and enzymes.

Yes, the longer the yeast is given to consume the sucrose, the less sweeter the dough will taste, whether in the fridge or not. It just takes longer in the fridge before that happens.

Keep in mind though that in general, if the risidual sugar content (the sugar left over after fermentation) is over 4 or 5% to the weight of the flour one may begin to detect a light sweetness in the taste of the dough (which is not always wanted).

If the yeast is given enough time there will be eventually no risidual sugar left. The result could be that your crust will not turn brown (before the toppings burn).

If you noticed that your crust has not been browning up enough,

Pierre

Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pierre on June 02, 2004, 04:11:36 PM
Foccaciaman,

I have my stone on the lowest rack in the oven and when the oven is on both the top and lower heat elements are on.

maybe you need to place your stone or screen 1 rack higher so the cheese gets closer to your top heat element? Or lower the sugar content.

I'd like to see the results what you guys get using my recipe...and if you adjustments are needed or not.

Pierre
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Foccaciaman on June 02, 2004, 10:11:03 PM
I also have my stone on the bottom rack. I thought about putting it up but have never done it. I will give it a shot on the next one and let ya know.  ;D
Also I installed a new oven about 2 weeks ago and am still trying to get it to work with me and not against me. >:(
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pierre on June 03, 2004, 04:36:32 PM
a new oven always takes getting used to. Ours was replaced about 2 1/2 months ago and we had to get used to it also.

Pierre
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pierre on June 22, 2004, 05:30:31 PM
Has anyone gotten to trying my New York Crust recipe yet?

I'd like to see the results you are getting (considering the differences in flour, yeast and ovens). I've tried a few variations as well.

If I have time on the weekend, I want to try some Semolina (durum wheat coarse).

Pierre
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: DKM on June 22, 2004, 09:11:49 PM
Has anyone gotten to trying my New York Crust recipe yet?

It's been too long, and i'm too blind.  Where is it at?

DKM
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Foccaciaman on June 22, 2004, 09:42:28 PM
It was next on my list and then I stopped making pizza for about a week or so.
Then I made one for my wife yesterday with a quick 2 hour rise.
Actually turned out to be one of the better New York Styles I have made.
2 cups KA Flour
3/4 cup of water + 2 tblsp
1.5 tsp yeast
1 tbls honey
2 tbls olive oil
2 tsp sugar
2 tsp kosher salt
Makes 1 16"

Knead on low 4 min, rest 4 min, knead on medium 5 min.  Finish kneading by hand 1 min.

New Sauce mixture:
1 can 6 in 1
1.5 tsp salt
1/4 tsp b pepper
2 tsp Penzy's pizza spice mixture ( this stuff is great, never liked mixes before but this makes a good sauce)
2 tsp sugar
1 can italian tomato paste.

Going to try your recipe next Pierre.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Randy on June 23, 2004, 12:15:45 AM
Penzeys has some great stuff.  The pizza blend is one of the best.

Randy
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pierre on June 23, 2004, 05:43:43 AM
DKM, you'll find the recipe in the middle of page one of this thread...

Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Foccaciaman on June 23, 2004, 10:15:10 AM
Penzy's got me hooked with their chili powder :)
I buy the hot for myself and the medium for the wife.
Best damn chili powder I have ever found. :o
Lucky for me there is a Penzy's store about 20 min from my house. ;D ;D
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Randy on June 23, 2004, 10:24:54 AM
The first time I made pizza sauce with it I tasted it fresh from the stove and was not impressed but when I tasted it on the pizza, it was wonderful.  Later I added the teaspoon of sugar and then it was better than ever.  The Italian mix is great for spaghetti sauce and mixed with oil and vinegar makes the best-grilled chicken.  In addition, the Vietnamese cinnamon is outrageously good.  The medium chili powder is what I use for chili and enchilada sauce.

Randy
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Foccaciaman on June 23, 2004, 11:50:38 AM
I'll have to try the cinnamon for sure.  ;D
What is your enchilada sauce recipe?
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Les on June 30, 2004, 05:58:37 PM
I posted this here since "dough" is in the thread title.  Can anyone tell me, when leaving dough to rise overnight in the refrigerator, do you store it in an airtight container?  
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Steve on June 30, 2004, 07:42:18 PM
Yes.  :)

I use those 5 quart plastic icecream buckets.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Foccaciaman on June 30, 2004, 11:31:27 PM
I use the large ziploc freezer bags. ;D ;D
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Les on July 01, 2004, 12:27:50 AM
Thanks guys.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: lucifer on July 01, 2004, 12:59:15 AM
Can anyone tell me what a True New Yorker (tm) would have to say about a little tabsco addition to the sauce?   say 5-7 shakes of the bottle?

I reckon it adds a nice little zing, but as an Aussie, wouldn't know if it's kosher for a "New York Style Pizza"
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pizzaholic on July 01, 2004, 11:14:19 AM
les
my two bits
I use a kitchenaid mixer and spray the mix bowls after mixing with classico olive oil and roll the dough balls around to coat them. ( btw I cut the dough in two and use both mixing bowls for the fermentation)
I have covered the oiled dough balls with plastic wrap and then sealed off the tops of the bowls with plastic wrap. Essentially a double seal.
It works well for me and the plastic does not stick to the dough and does not stop the dough from rising.
I have used oiled ziplocs also and they work well.

Lucifer
I am not from NY, but I know what I like. Go ahead and use the Tabasco in your sauce. Its a matter of taste and if you like it, you've got taste. Another thing you might try is Bruces pepper sauce, its peppers marinating in vinager. Tastes great on cooked pizza to me.
Have at it mate!!
Pizzaholic

Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: canadave on July 02, 2004, 12:26:20 AM
Lucifer--

I'm a native New Yorker, and I can tell you that the main determinant of a true NY pizza isn't so much the taste of the sauce as it is the style of the dough and the size of the pizza.  That being said, I don't think I've ever tasted a NY pizza that had the taste of some tabasco in it.  But as Arthur said, go ahead and use it, see if it tastes good...if it does, who cares if it's authentic or not? ;)

Dave
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Foccaciaman on July 09, 2004, 03:08:53 PM
Made a shrimp(under the cheese), mozzarella, sliced tomato, baby spinach leaf and basil leaf pizza for lunch. Wow knocked my socks off.
Sauce
1 tb butter
1 tb Oilive oil
.5 tsp Kosher Salt
1/4 tsp black pepper
1/4 tsp onion powder
2 cloves garlic
1/4 tsp lemon pepper
1 small red scallion minced
7 min @ 550  very crispy and delicious. ;D
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 08, 2004, 08:10:58 AM
Based on my past experience and preference, I do not believe that pizza needs to go in the oven within 24 hours after it is prepared.  In fact, I find that the best tasting crust is produced when the dough is left in the refrigerator for 24 - 72 hours, and I've found this to be true with smaller pizzeria establishments as well.

By following some techniques, you'll find that the balance of salt, yeast and refrigeration really is key to the amount of sugar that is left for the palette, rather than merely creating a feeding frenzy for yeast.  

- When dough is placed in the refrigerator within 15 minutes after it is kneaded, the delay in the fermentation process is very noticable.   I have witnessed this step among professionals when invited into their back kitchens as well.  

- 2 cups of flour (9 ounces of flour) is plenty for a 14" pizza tossed, which is thin, yet not cracker thin (the slice below held by a friend is a typical size).

- I respect the idea that you should not rely on added sugar to create a great tasting pizza, unless you expect to get a great wine by adding sugar to grape juice as Peter R would suggest.  I have been able to get great tasting dough in a 14" pizza with much less than 1 TBL of sugar.

- NY recipes with a 1/2 tsp of yeast should be plenty.  

- Less than a 1 tsp of salt should do the trick as well.  Since yeast does not like salt though, I don't like the idea of adding both of them into a process at the same time.

- The full sugar is not available after it is kneaded.  Enzymes need to spend hours to release the sugars buried in the flour's starches.  Enzymes are willing to work for you, so give them time to do good work for you.

- I love San Francisco sour dough.  Although I don't necessarily try to create a sour dough starter, the acids that form during the fermentation period help create a great tasting dough.  As one person who creates outstanding natural and professional tasting food said to me, if you could let the dough get really really ugly, the better off you'd be with its taste.

Well, I have to admit, when I took out a dough from the refrigerator today that was a good week old, it was real ugly.  But it wasn't a first for me.  A friend asked me what the different colors were all about (so much for letting the customer in the kitchen).  As you can see in the 2nd picture, it had no problem browning around the edges, with plenty of rise at 530 F.  

Unfortunately, I did not have my usual Grande cheese around, so I had to use a pre-shredded cheese which is always garbage and sure to burn and dry out at 530 F... which it did.  But the dough tasted great and formed nicely, and the herb-based olive oil and fresh basil came through, and the pepperoni reminded me why it's a top seller in the US.  

(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/slice3a.jpg)

(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/browna.jpg)
::)
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 08, 2004, 09:21:19 AM
I saw a person's comment that people should not waste their time trying to make pizza in a home oven.

When it comes to dinner, I am starting to find it difficult to enjoy pizza any other way.  There is simply nothing like a full course meal served on a crispy crust, which includes sauteed spinach, fresh organic tomatoes, mozzarella cheese with olive oil and fresh garden herbs, and some good ol' pepperoni topped with oak aged feta cheese and a few strands of whole milk grande cheese-- all for a cost of about $5.

                    (http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/pizza3a.jpg)
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: itsinthesauce on August 08, 2004, 10:36:28 AM
I totally agree.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 08, 2004, 02:34:55 PM
Giotto,

Usually the people who disparage the use of home ovens to make pizzas are people who have close ties to professional pizza making.  In a similar vein, I read a comment from an industry professional who referred to home KitchenAid stand mixers as "stocking stuffers".  

I truly believe that the home pizza maker has advantages over the professional pizza maker.  The greatest challenge to the home pizza maker is to find the finest ingredients at reasonable prices.  However, there is no profit motive involved.  So, unlike the professional pizza maker, who is in the business to make a profit, there is no need to cut corners or take shortcuts to save time or labor costs, or to look for cheaper ingredients or substitutes, or to pre-portion and pre-weigh everything, or to use pre-prepared pizza ingredients and techniques that are geared to high-volume commercial production.  Consequently, in almost all cases, your pizzas will be of higher quality than those made by most professionals.  You can be a true pizzaiolo. To be sure, there are some professionals who will be uncompromising in the quality of the pizzas they produce, and have the best equipment available to them (like great ovens), but they are in the minority and generally cater to an upscale audience who are willing and able to pay for that high level of quality.

And, how many times have the people who have eaten your home-baked pizzas told you that the pizzas were the best they have ever eaten?  Plenty, I'll bet.

Peter  
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 08, 2004, 04:12:39 PM
Giotto,

With a few minor exceptions, I pretty much agree with everything you say about pizza ingredients and technique.  

I am generally inclined to use less yeast, and little or no sugar unless I expect a long period of fermentation.  I am also not as hard on shredded mozzarella cheese as you are.  

On the matter of yeast amount, I recently made a New York style pizza for a family member, using a recipe I found at the Recipe Bank at PMQ.   Thanks to people like Pierre and others at this forum who had weighed out different dough ingredients, including yeast, to facilitate weight to volume conversions, I was able to scale down the recipe to a volume of dough sufficient to make two 14-inch pizzas, the largest size the pizza peel and the pizza stone could safely hold.  (Admittedly, Foccaciaman's recent experience with the pizzaoilo devil nervously coursed through my brain).  The recipe was optional as to the use of sugar, so I used none.  The flour was a high-gluten flour (I used KA Sir Lancelot flour).  The amount of yeast, which I converted to instant yeast, was a little bit less than 1/8 teaspoon--actually closer to 1/16 teaspoon.  Needless to say, my relative was flabbergasted to see me use such a minuscule amount of instant yeast, especially for a high-gluten flour in the amount used.  I used a food processor, cool water, a 10-minute autolyse, and strove--successfully--for a dough temperature of around 80 degrees F.   I scaled the dough and divided it into two balls, oiled them lightly, put them into separate, covered bowls, and immediately put them into the refrigerator.  

The first pizza, a pepperoni pizza, was baked the next day, after a bit more than 24 hours of refrigeration of the dough and a period of about 2 hours rise at room temperature prior to shaping and dressing.   Because of other commitments, the second pizza, a sausage pizza with sauteed multi-color peppers and red onions, wasn't prepared until about 3 days later, or a total of 96 hours for the dough in the refrigerator.  The dough was pretty much on its last legs at this time but it shaped up nicely and the pizza turned out just fine, with pronounced flavors that are characteristic of prolonged rise times.  Like the more youthful first pizza, it received rave reviews from a hard-to-please crowd.  But what impressed me the most was how little yeast is actually needed to make pizzas, so little that I am tempted to see what the miminum amount really is, particularly if I am willing to give the dough time to develop and evolve.  Of course, there are times when you would like to have your pizza while you are still young, and, in those instances, you can alter the ingredients and quantities and times and temperatures to achieve a faster pizza, all as have been chronicled at this forum many times before.

As for shredded mozzarella cheese, I, too, prefer several of the other alternatives better, but there are times where they aren't readily available.  I have many times made pizzas for others and the only cheese handed to me was shredded mozarella cheese.   Invariably, using a heavy hand to minimize premature browning, they have worked out fine.  It's only the very finely shredded or diced mozzarella cheeses that come in little plastic bags that have given me fits.  Usually, I found that I could add those cheeses to the pizzas part way through baking and achieve at least moderate success.  Most people have come to accept mediocrity in their lives that they don't even notice the difference.   I just smile and accept the accolades.

Peter
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 08, 2004, 06:51:23 PM
Thank you and Amen regarding the disparagers.  Pete-zza has rightfully put together all the reasons.  I'm fortunate to have come across such a quality forum.  

Admittingly, different packages of cheese produce different results.  It's the smaller packages, anti-caking and "smoked" ingredients, and the inability to control the amounts and quality of different cheeses when combining them that motivate me to shred my own.

The comment regarding how people react to a pizza is very perceptive.  THERE is a big difference between the ol "this is really good" followed by the inevitable question "have you tried...?" vs. a spirited "wow, this is the best pizza that I have ever had," followed by the names of reputable and sometimes incredibly expensive pizzerias that don't compare.

The challenging part for me is to avoid the costs of that profitability index so notably menioned earlier, only to become that student who just automatically starts getting an "A", regardless of what is churned out.  We have to remind ourselves of our initial goals and resist those temptations to just drop the ball in the end, regardless if others let us get away with it.  

Regarding yeast, I've been quite successful as well with as little as 1/4 tsp.  But, I needed to adjust for things like how I handled the proofing phase and how I timed the temperature changes in the dough after it was made.  Lately, I've been having fun (did I say work was fun?) testing the affect of NOT using yeast as an ingredient-- not directly anyways.  Instead, I've been leveraging the tastes formed with acid producing dough as a starter for newer dough.  I'm thinking that attaining a 100 year-old starter might be intriguing (I'm not sure what will look worse in the end, me or it).  I've been avoiding multiple steps used to create sourdough; but heeding the warnings of killing the yeast up front.  Nothing like another chemistry endeavor where the concept of feel doesn't enter the picture until a later time.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: itsinthesauce on August 08, 2004, 07:29:12 PM
Pete, any pictures of your final results?
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 08, 2004, 08:05:17 PM
Giotto,

What you are now starting to talk about verges on (1)sourdough fermentation, based on wild yeast, or (2) what I call a "faux" sourdough, based on a starter or sponge (or what the French call a poolish and the Italians call a biga).  The former is much more unpredictable than the latter since it depends on the wild yeast which, in turn, depends on where you live and how you nurture the wild yeast once you capture it and transform it into a viable mother culture.  It's a lot of work and you may have to give up your day job to put aside enough time to make and tend to the sourdough starter.  And you will never quite know what your pizza crust will taste like (which may be good or bad depending on how much you like the element of surprise), and it may be impossible to replicate from one pizza to the next.  By contrast, the use of a sponge or starter makes use of standard commercial yeasts and will produce more predictable results, although you won't get the myriad fermentation byproducts and taste components that wild yeasts produce.  A plus for a sponge or starter using commercial yeast is that you can make a good supply of it, store it in the refrigerator, and periodically replenish it fairly easily once you use part of it to make pizza dough.  And you won't have to forego normal employment.

I tried a wild yeast sourdough recipe for pizza dough based on a recipe I saw in a book "Classic Sourdoughs..A Home Bakers's Handbook", by Ed Wood.  I didn't care for the taste of the pizza crust made following that recipe.  I have made the "faux" sourdough dough and liked it much better.   As you may know, a sponge is a mixture of a portion of the flour to be used, the entire amount of yeast, and water (and no salt) that is left to ferment for several hours (at least 2 hours, so that the yeast can acclimate and start the fermentation process) or even overnight, at room temperature and sometimes in the refrigerator.  The sponge is intended to impart a better flavor (through the creation of lactic and acetic acids and aromatic compounds during fermentation) and dough softness (there is less gassiness) when combined with the additional ingredients--more flour, water and salt--to make the pizza dough.  Combined with a long fermentation, use of a sponge-based dough will result in a large crumb structure and random bubbles, particularly when a small amount of yeast is used.  

My experience is that a sponge improves the flavor of the dough when baked, and results in a chewy crust with a soft interior (crumb).  I have read that some pizzaoli in Naples do use sponges and starters, possibly even "sourdough" starters (quite possibly a biga), in the making of pizza doughs.  That would suggest that at least some professionals see merit in their use.  To date, the use of sponges by the domestic pizza industry is virtually nonexistent.   It's not difficult to see why.   It's too much work and too much trouble, especially when you can't guarantee the results and consistency of results.

I do have a few recipes in my recipe collection for those who are interested in this facet of pizza production.  I might also mention that Peter Reinhart, in his new book, "American Pie", also has a section devoted to sourdough pizza dough.

Peter
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 08, 2004, 08:29:16 PM
itsinthesauce,

I'm sorry, but I don't have any pictures.  I was in Mexico at the time and, while I have a digital camera, I've successfully avoided having to learn how to use it since I received it for Xmas a couple of years ago.  I think I got as far as putting the batteries in it.  Joining this forum may force me to give up some of my Luddite ways.

As for the pizzas, they looked quite nice--like what New York style pizzas look like.   A nice rise, good bubbling (which I actually like), nice browning of the crust, a good cornice (rim), a chewy texture, and the "floppiness" that New York style pizzas are known for.   I take no credit for any of that.  I just followed the recipe from the PMQ Recipe Bank after scaling it down to a two-pizza dough volume.  I have followed the recipe a few times and it seems to produce consistent results.  I'm sure that other recipes I have seen on this forum, by Randy and others, should work as well, although I haven't yet gotten around to trying them myself.

If you'd like, I can post the recipe I followed and the processing steps I used, both with respect to a stand mixer and a food processor.

Peter
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 09, 2004, 02:20:16 AM
I have P. Reinhart's book; I really enjoyed it.  But as I mentioned, sourdough isn't my interest per se.  I've tried the sponge technique on two occassions now.  The first time, I used it as a 50% starter and it was marvelous, with many of the attributes that Pete mentions.  Then I tried it as a 10% starter, seeing how little I could use and in what time.  I need to play with this a bit.

As far as the pros are concerned, their focus and my focus is quite different.  They are a commodity in many cases; I am not.  I'll continue to witness natural progression and incorporate this thinking into my day job.  I do have one thing in common with the pros though.  I'm pretty much a realist despite my desire for perfection, so when something doesn't work out, I'm pretty quick to change.

Pete, the digital camera will take you about 15 minutes to get going and another 50 minutes to get down.  Geezzz, I got a mom that won't take the same amount of time to program her phone, and now no pictures.  Leverage a friend to make it more painless.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 09, 2004, 05:38:41 PM
I've always been amazed at the incredible sight it is to watch this woman at a nearby NY style pizzeria slowly turn a slab of dough into a 16" silky smooth wonder.  As she turns the dough into the light for maybe 10 or so minutes, I notice that her hands are always at the top, the dough never takes off at the bottom, and never have I seen a weak spot ever form; it just looks like a huge piece of cream silk.

I'm equally delighted at how willing many of these pizzerias are to share their ingredients.  Here's some examples:

- I found out about Grande cheese by inquiring about cheese under high heat.  I complemented a manager at another pizzeria about the taste of their cheese. She told me they mixed Edan cheese into their Grande.  

- When I first started to make my own dough, I called Il Fornaio and asked them if I could purchase their dough. They said they'd be happy to at $1 for a 14" size.  I then started to do the same with my favorite NY style pizzerias, and each sold it for $1 (of course, I mentioned that this was the going price).  My interest was many-fold, all educational, some I list below:

1) I wanted to feel the texture of their doughs in my hands, test their elasticity and see how well they spun (if I couldn't spin them, I couldn't blame the dough, and in the one case,  if I couldn't turn the slab of dough into a 14" web of beauty, I'd know the pizzaioli was a witch.

2) I wanted to establish if their cooking techniques vs. my techniques created completely different results. I wanted to test the so-called differences between my oven and the pro oven, seeing if I could re-create their doughs.  

3) When I got Trader Joes dough, I wanted to test their dough out against some of the others, since I had their ingredients readily available and I knew the provider of their dough.

4) I also wanted to weight their doughs, finding most were 16 - 18 oz. to form a 14" thin pizza.

5) An owner in the East Bay smiled and told me he could see that I would never be satisfied unless I understood how to make the dough.  So he waved for me to come back with him because it was time for him to make some more dough.  I stood there in amazement as he went about his business with his ingredients, adding them into his Hobart in specific time frames, explaining the importance of mixing in the front, not in the end.  To this day, I've found some of his techniques to work the best for me.  

6) In each case, I had no one to blame except my technique when I tried to make it myself.  I was able to sharpen my skills now that I knew how wonderful some of the crusts could really turn out.

So what the heck, I asked the one owner what flour was used to make that incredible thin silk web, one turn at a time.  She told me the name; I never heard of it.  BUT my only excuse is that she shocked me when she told me it was an All Purpose flour, the best according to her.  I tell you, it is one beautiful sight both before and after it is cooked.  It is crispy, chewy, thin almost cracker like, it's elastic but never over extends, tender with a slight air in the outside crust, easily folds from side to side with the wonderful droop up front, with toppings that are as thin at the rest of it.  She said she doesn't use eggs, baking soda or any of that stuff.  I only get this result with a high gluten flour and a small amount of fat substance.  Asking sure beats digging.
 ::)
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 09, 2004, 07:30:17 PM
Giotto,

One of the interesting points from your post is the apparent success of all-purpose flour for making pizza doughs.  Of all the flours and flour combinations I have tried, I have been least thrilled with the results using all-purpose flour alone.  For example, I have tried the basic all-purpose flour pizza dough recipes used by Wolfgang Puck and the California Pizza Kitchen, among others, but I have preferred doughs based on other flours.  I have been able to improve the results somewhat (for my tastebuds at least) by combining all-purpose flour with other flours, such as pastry flour or cake flour, and the results have been something comparable to 00 flour.  I have also combined all-purpose flour with small amounts of whole-wheat flour and a finely-ground corn flour (the basic recipe used by the Al Forno restaurant in Providence) and with rye flour (Alice Waters' basic recipe), and have liked the results better than using all-purpose flour alone.  I see also that Peter Reinhart, in his American Pie cookbook, has some dough recipes using all-purpose flour.  Having just recently finished reading the book, I haven't tried those recipes yet, but would be interested in feedback from those who have, especially the recipe for the Neapolitan pizza dough, which usually calls for 00 flour or an "equivalent" flour combination.

I wondered, Giotto, whether the all-purpose flour with the funny name that you were trying to recall is the "Ceresota" flour?  It's an all-purpose flour that is popular in some parts of the country.

Peter
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 09, 2004, 11:46:25 PM
Pete-zza:

I was equally surprised as you.  I have not had success either with all-purpose, and Reinhart's recipe did not change my opinion.  Personally, I enjoyed his travels and tidbits far more than the basic processing associated with this recipes.  I've used many all purpose brands, and like you, have found better results when mixing them with other flours.

I can only assume that the one used here is either imported (she mentioned that it's not readily available) or she is doing something to that dough.  I don't believe it's the name you mention though.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 10, 2004, 01:30:31 AM
Giotto,

In fairness to all-purpose flour, it's been quite a while since I last played around with all-purpose flour alone for pizza dough, and I'd like to think that I have learned something since then.  I recall that the original Wolfgang Puck all-purpose flour pizza dough recipe, for example, called for a period of refrigeration, albeit a short one.  When I saw the most recent iteration of the recipe not too long ago, it no longer called for the refrigeration.  I wondered whether it was a concession to home cooks who don't want to expend the extra time and effort to make a better product--which I clearly believe refrigeration does--or whether it was some other reason that I can't pin down.  It's like dumbing down pizzas.  

Starting from scratch today with all-purpose flour, I tend to think that I would first decide what kind of pizza dough and crust characteristics I want and then redesign the recipe.  After looking at pizza dough recipes over the years in light of what I have learned about the chemistry and physics of pizza dough, I have concluded that a large percentage of recipes may have evolved as much by accident as by design and that there are a lot of faulty recipes out there.  Usually with new recipes I decide to try for the first time, I try to predict what the characteristics of the final product will be just from looking at the ingredients and quantities and techniques recited.  Then, if a pizza comes up short, I try to fix what is wrong the next tiime.  

Peter
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 10, 2004, 04:41:37 AM
I'm trying to think of the last time I ever followed a recipe.  I normally spend a great deal of time up front looking at what is out there, what is similar and different, what makes sense from a chemistry standpoint, what knowledgable people in the field have to say, and then just conjure up my own thing.

I come from a dispersed family of picklers and gourmet home chefs that have little reason to ever eat out.  I eat too many diverse foods to ever have this issue.  Sometimes, I worry about being at the bottom of the Maslow chart; but I realize that food tells me a great deal about a culture.  While none of this seems to quite fit into the Rich Dad, Poor Dad book, I truly respect people with that zen nature who just become one with what they do.  

This takes me back to all-purpose flour, which can differ greatly at times.  The first time that I felt Arrowhead Mills white flour, I was stunned at its rich texture.  And I've certainly reached different results between Bob's Red Mill, which seems grainy to me vs. other flours.  I've come across pros that produce significant differences in their high gluten doughs, with the type and amount of fat that trap the moisture being the most obvious difference.  From the same perspective, I've also worked with all purpose doughs from pros that have significant differences in elasticity and chewy results; but the reasons are not always so evident.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 11, 2004, 06:19:57 AM
Well, I'm happy; but not heavy because I eat NY Pizza.  Tonight, I'd like to take full credit for developing one of the best tasting crusts I've ever had.  But I can't, because it was an all purpose dough from the pizzeria mentioned above.

I CAN take credit for shaping it into a 14" pizza, using the technique employed at the pizzeria, where I slowly turned the dough in the light, with both hands next to each other (rather than at opposite ends), and never once did I need to put it down.  I CAN even take credit for cooking the bottom of the dough to a crispy perfection at 540 F.  And I love the bubbly red & white dotted second skin formed by a mix of cheeses.

But I was caught by surprise when it only weighed in at 12 oz, which is 4 oz less than normal for me when creating a 14" pizza.  

It was tough taking the pictures, knowng it was truly a delicious experience.  All purpose flour can work; I gotta get hold of this flour:
(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/all-slice.jpg)


The airy crust held its strength, creating a crispy chewy result as it made its way to a thin skin:

(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/all-hold.jpg)
 ::)
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Steve on August 11, 2004, 07:22:07 AM
Awesome pictures. And awesome looking pizza!

I wish that I had the luxury of buying raw dough balls from the local pizza shops to compare with my own recipe.  8)
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: canadianbacon on August 11, 2004, 08:43:04 AM
This is something I wish I could also do.

I also have a crazy idea of ordering a pizza from a pizza joint - have them make up my pie, but don't have them put it into the oven..... I'd take it home and then throw it into MY oven
which would be set at 500 degrees for a good 30 mins...

and then --- then see how it does, and how it tastes !

One thing that I have always wanted to try is a real pizza oven.... supposedly pizza
ovens are running very hot - well over 500 degrees.  I remember reading once that oven are 650 degrees in a real pizza place.  This perhaps changes the texture of the dough as it bakes, - there's a huge difference between 500 and 650, and having a real pizza surface to bake on.

Anyway I'm sure we'd all love to have a real pizza oven.  I often kid to my wife that if I win the lotto I'm going to buy the house next door and have a pizza oven installed in it, and turn it into my own personal pizza joint  ;D

Mark
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 11, 2004, 12:29:39 PM
Giotto,

Out of curiosity, have you ever used any of the flours from Giusto's which, I understand, is in the SF area?  Apparently Pizzeria Bianco in Phoenix, one of P. Reinhart's favorite pizza restaurants in all the U.S., uses one or more of the Giusto flours.

One of the things that intrigued me about your post is the amount of dough you used to make your pizza.  In the most recent post, you indicated that you used about 12 ounces of dough for a New York style 14-in. pizza (which strikes me as being too little), whereas in an earlier post you indicated that you used 16-18 ounces to make a 14-in. New York style pizza (which struck me as being too much).  Pizza dough weight is a question that comes up quite a bit in relation to a desired size (diameter) of pizza.   Recipes aren't consistent about dough weight and, until you are able to make adjustments to the recipes to get the weights you want, it quite often happens that the amount of dough produced from following a recipe exactly is too much or too little for what you want.  And, in addition to thickness--that is, average/medium, thick and thin--the type of pizza (e.g., New York style vs. some other style), the type of flour(s), the number and types of toppings, bake time, etc., may play a role in what thickness of dough you will need.

Recently, rather than guessing, I have been playing around with what apparently is an industry equation for relating dough weight to pizza size, specifically,

                      W = (Pi x R x R) x F,

where W is the required weight of dough for a specific size pizza, in ounces; (Pi x R x R) is the surface area of the specific size pizza, in square inches; Pi (the Greek letter) is equal to 3.14; R is the radius of the specific size pizza, in inches; and
F is a thickness factor related to the specific size pizza
                                                               
The thickness factor F in the above equation, apparently derived from tests, has a value of 0.11 for an average (medium) pizza crust thickness, a value of 0.10 for a thin crust, and a value of 0.12-0.13 for a thick crust.  So, for example, a 12-in. pizza with an average (medium) crust thickness will require a piece of dough weighing about 12.5 ounces (3.14 x 6 x 6 x 0.11).  Similarly, a 12-in. pizza with a thin crust will require a piece of dough weighing about 11 ounces (3.14 x 6 x 6 x 0.10), and a 12-in. pizza with a thick crust will require a piece of dough weighing about 13.5-14.4 ounces (3.14 x 6 x 6 x 0.12 or 0.13).  The weights of dough pieces for other pizza diameters and desired crust thicknesses are calculated in the same manner, using the equation expressed above.  For the 14-in. pizza used in your case, Giotto, the calculated weight would be 15.5 ounces for a thin crust, 17 ounces for a medium crust, and 18.5-20 for a thick crust.  I assume a New York style pizza crust would be considered thin (15.5 ounces).  

I learned also that the above equation can also be used for dough scaling purposes based on actual experience.  Assume, for example, that you determined through the process of experimentation or trial and error that the ideal, or "perfect" dough ball weight for a 14-in. pizza is 15 ounces.  Using the expression (Pi x R x R), where R is equal to 7, the surface area of the pizza is calculated to be 153.86 square inches (3.14 x 7 x 7).  A value for the unique thickness factor F based on the 14-in. size pizza would then be calculated by dividing 15 by 153.86, or 0.0984912.  To determine the dough ball weight for another size pizza, say, 12 inches, the corresponding value of the new dough ball weight is calculated by multiplying the surface area of the 12-in. pizza, or 113.04 square inches (3.14 x 6 x 6), by 0.0984912, or roughly 11 ounces.  The dough ball weight for any other size pizza, up or down in diameter, would be calculated in the same manner.

I have memorized the above equation and "F" factors so that no matter where I am and called upon to make pizzas, I am able to at least get into the ballpark on weight--as long as there is a scale on hand.

Peter


Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: canadianbacon on August 11, 2004, 12:41:09 PM
Hi Peter,

Interesting stuff, - your post reminds me of something I had forgotten about , - even around here in Canada, the guys at the pizzeria places will use old scales to measure out dough for their sizes of pizzas.... I've never seen made-before doughballs, in real pizzeria place though, I will see them however in the franchises, that don't make "real" pizza, it's ok pizza but it's more of a fast food pizza, - where the employees are more like McDonald workers -- meaning they have no clue what they are really doing but the food comes out great because they have a set of instructions to follow.... put dough ball into machine to make it into a disc, dock it, add sauce etc.......

whereas the REAL places I have been to, when you walk in... you give the guy your order... he then lifts up a little dish cloth off a huge tub of dough.... he then eyes the dough take a cutter and slices off a chunk, he then throws it on an old scale and then adds to it or takes away a bit of the dough ... from there he works the dough... etc....
so I guess these authentic pizza makers are so good they know all the weights for a specific size of pizza and can just do it on the fly.... anyway it brought back memories of guys doing it, and i didn't really remember that until your post.

Mark
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: canadianbacon on August 11, 2004, 12:47:36 PM
I'm puzzled... i'm reading this thread, and see people responding to stuff RoadPizza wrote
yet there are NO posts by RoadPizza in the thread ??

Ok what am I missing here ?  ???

Mark
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 11, 2004, 03:12:02 PM
I weigh my flour so I can get a consistent raw dough reading.  BUT in this case, I was using dough from a nearby pizzeria that makes their NY style pizza from a very unique all purpose flour (giving unusually great results), and I was surprised at how little their dough weighs.

Since I have an older non-digital weigher for my flour, I may come within an ounce in the final dough.  When I say 14", that's the screen I use; in the end, I determine the thin layers and actual size based on the way I turn it and spin it in the light.  

So generally 8 1/2 oz flour = 16 oz  final dough (within an ounce  or two sometimes) giving a slightly off-round approximate 14" dough with nice outter edge crust that slims down to a skin in the middle.  Your formula would have saved me a [email protected]*$# of time (excuse the language).

You can try hitting any nearby favorite pizza place, and ask for their dough for a 14" (usually sells for a buck)-- it is great to compare how it feels, throws, weights, etc.

Here's an example of the final result on a serving pan:

(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/all-purp.jpg)
 ::)
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: canadianbacon on August 11, 2004, 03:54:50 PM
Hi Giotto,

I've love to see the pizza before it went in :-)
the image you tried to upload didn't work I guess.

Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 11, 2004, 07:43:22 PM
I've had my share of high quality pizzerias follow a process where they make the dough, weigh it, precut it, and roll them into balls, allowing them to sit for an appropriate amount of time to build up the sugar levels.  This level of efficiency mapped out by P. Reinhart and others has not resulted in any degradation of quality for me.

However, I have found a significant degradation in quality when any ol' person (who usually looks bored beyond belief) does everything, including making the final pizzas.  When there is no Pizzaiolo who takes great strides in producing every step personally, the quality suffers.  

In the case of the recent dough I worked with, the pizzaiolo takes great pride.  When I get dough in a select few cases, it is placed in a small bag for me, then I turn and toss it and place it on my thin flat wired pan.

Here is a picture of the dough after I let it cool off a bit for 20 minutes, turned it and then placed it on a flat pan.

(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/dough.jpg)


Regarding pro ovens, with a thin wired pan and heat at 520 F or above (in this case, I think it was 540 F), along with a couple of tricks, you can get a crispy crust bottom that you'll demand from the pros:

(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/all-hold2.jpg)
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: canadianbacon on August 11, 2004, 07:48:59 PM
nice dough  ;D  thanks for posting.

Do you actually throw your dough in the air ? ... i've tried it but gave up,
it's a real art I think, and take hours of pratice.

Mark
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 11, 2004, 09:00:52 PM
Canadianbacon:

Nah, in 5 minutes, I can have you tossing dough with a big ol' smile on your face.  The picture at my left is a first toss.  Like anything else, it's getting the technique from the best-- here's a technique that I got from a world champ.

Although most people suggest to use your knuckles when tossing... wrong move.  Instead, try placing the dough on your palm, and be sure to turn your wrist clockwise with your left hand, or counter clockwise with your right hand. Send the dough up in the air with this technique, and be sure to catch it with your knuckles.  

Lots of tricks can be developed from here.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 11, 2004, 09:32:54 PM
Peter:

Giusto's is available at Whole Foods in the bins (here we go again...).  I never even knew about the bins until I came across a lead at a site, which suggested the hi gluten was available (which it's not, the person confused vital gluten at 70% with high gluten flour).  

I'm familiar with Pizzeria Bianco as well.  What an animal-- the guy mixes 50 lbs of Giusto's flour by HAND.  I've almost killed myself trying to do this with a double doze of flour for 2 pizzas.  I don't see, however, which type of Giusto's he uses in the book.  

It would make sense that he'd use their lowest % of protein, considering that he makes it true to Naples (and hence your undying interest naturally), with no sugars or oils added to the flour, and naturally would want to use a lower %.

The lowest % protein that I know of at Giustos, outside of pastry flour, is 11.5%, available as either their Baker's Choice (organic, unbleached wheat) or Artisan (unbleached malted wheat).  The Baker's choice is available from their bins-- can't remember if the Artisan is available.  Their highest gluten is 13.5%.  I got these numbers from their specs (not labels).
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: canadianbacon on August 11, 2004, 09:39:18 PM
Giotto, I need to try your pizza recipe :-) I like the look of your dough.
this is an old image back from 1999, I like thick dough but yours looks super also  ;D
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: canadianbacon on August 11, 2004, 10:32:10 PM
Boy Pierre, I'm glad you joined our list ! , je suis heureux !  you gave some really good
words of wisdom here, merci pour ca.

Mark

(which is not always wanted).

If the yeast is given enough time there will be eventually no risidual sugar left. The result could be that your crust will not turn brown (before the toppings burn).

If you noticed that your crust has not been browning up enough,

  • you may not be using enough sugar in your recipe
  • the dough has been fermenting too long so no sugar is left that could caramelize
  • your bottom heat is not high enough
  • or your top heat is too high (and your toppings are finished before your crust is)
Pierre


Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 11, 2004, 10:41:12 PM
Canadianbacon:

Quite the motto you got there regarding smokin... Thank God for Pizza, I'd starve waiting for these Memphis style slow smokin ribs of mine.  

On the other hand, I suppose if they were both ready at the same time (which is possible with pizza refrigeration time), I could just throw em on the pizza and start knawing... You may want to see my notes on page 2 of this session regarding pizza dough fermentation times, ingredients, etc., as well as the dialog with Pete-zza.

(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/rib2.jpg)



Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: canadianbacon on August 11, 2004, 10:46:16 PM
oh good lookin' ribs !  ;D  
I want to see those cut up .... do you happen to have a pic of the sideview
of 'em ? ... would love to see the smoke ring etc....

very nice looking Ribs !


Mark.
Rubbin' Is Lovin'
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 11, 2004, 11:12:45 PM
canadianbacon:  

I just went looking for pictures before I put up the prior one, and I can't find anything beyond something similar to what I already have here.  Talk about smoke rings, you should have seen the ring in a recent brisket I did-- the crusty surface was shining from the rub, the ring was perfect and the brisket was juicy beyond comparison.  A friend of mine who's an insufferable critic with smokin truly appreciated it.  Sometimes, the food just takes precedence; I feel like I let a perfect fish go though.
::)
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 11, 2004, 11:47:18 PM
Giotto,

Thanks for the information on Giusto's flour products.  I had read somewhere that it was sold at Whole Foods, but didn't know it at the time I bought some.  It was bread flour that I found at Whole Foods and not the high-gluten flour like the KA Sir Lancelot brand.  Since the Whole Foods I frequent also sells bulk vital wheat gluten, I have often combined the vital wheat gluten with bread flour or all-purpose flour to increase the total gluten content.  I have even combined vital wheat gluten with cake flour alone and found, somewhat to my surprise, that I could make a fairly good pizza dough doing so.  That suggested that a mixture of pastry flour and vital wheat gluten would also work.  Since these discoveries, I always keep vital wheat gluten on hand (stored in an air-tight container in the refrigerator).

One of the things that irks me about the flour industry is that the millers who supply the food industry with specialized formulations for making pizza doughs don't cater to the individual home baker.  The industrial strength stuff goes to the trade and we get the diluted stuff.  Go to the websites of the millers sometime and you will see what I mean.  It's quite possible that the flour for the dough you used for your recent pizzas was a specialized formulation that came from one of the millers I am referring to.  

Peter
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 12, 2004, 04:45:06 AM
Pete-zza:

You are absolutely NOT alone with regard to your quest or distress when it comes to the incredible disconnect between high gluten flour and the consumer.  I have spent endless hours on this topic.  Not only are we fenced off, but so are the stores, despite their efforts.

I tried to do a special order of Sir Lancelot from Whole Foods, because shipping is $10 for a 5 lb bag in CA.  Whole Foods tried to order a case for me and KA would not let them do it.  KA told Whole Foods it was a catalog order only for the consummer, and gave them a distributor's number.  Whole Foods goes direct, so KA refused to send it to them.  I could have got it at $3.50 bag + 15% discount.  The guy at Whole Foods was pissed because KA didn't even recognize their name (even though Whole Foods is one of the biggest seller of their consummer products).  

I called KA direct, spoke to one of their marketeers, and gave her a wakeup call.  She tried to talk me into a catalog; I told her at $10 shipping per 5 lb, she needed to send me whatever she was on instead.  I told her that Whole Foods uses Giusto's in the bin using their 50 lb bags and was pretty upset that they were the biggest seller of KA for consumer use, and could not get around this BS.  She asked for a name, which I gladly gave her.  What a crock.

What really gets to me is knowing that many a manufacturer is practically right down the street from me, yet I can't walk in and p/u a product.   When dealing with one local distributor, I was told that I needed to order a minimum of $70.  What a crock.

If I can buy dough from the pros, I've thought about getting a 50 lb bag from them as well (they pay less than $10).  I've been reluctant to make this request though.  

I know that the one pizzeria that uses All Purpose does not mix.  Personally, I do not get the same result when I mix a vital gluten like Bob's Red Mill vital gluten with an All Purpose or Bread flour vs. using only an actual high gluten flour.  Smart & Final has a high gluten, but it is bleached.  Costco has an unbleached version that a local pizzeria uses (Conagra unbleached Full Power), and they get good results from it.  But I can't get it at their stores anymore.  It is only available on their web site for professionals.

- So what kind of results did you get with Giusto Baker's flour vs. KA All Purpose, since they both suggest 11.7%?  
 
- Since Chris Bianco takes a Napoletana approach, do you think he is using the lower protein levels?  Do you know what he uses?  If he's mixing 50 lbs by hand, I wouldn't be surprised if he's using Giusto's pastry flour, mixed with all purpose.  Using only the all purpose @ 11.7% seems like it would be too high for him.



Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Steve on August 12, 2004, 07:22:33 AM
I'm puzzled... i'm reading this thread, and see people responding to stuff RoadPizza wrote
yet there are NO posts by RoadPizza in the thread ??

Ok what am I missing here ?  ???

Mark

RoadPizza posted some step-by-step pictures from the restaurant where he works. Apparently someone from the restaurant saw the pictures and he lost his job over it. Prior to losing his job, he deleted the messages.  :(
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: canadianbacon on August 12, 2004, 08:00:29 AM
oh boy not good  :(

I wonder who the mole was....  ???  , chances of somebody else in his company
actually being on this board at the same time are nil to none.... maybe somebody that just lurks saw the images and decided to call his place of employment, and report him ...seems the only logicial answer, unless he told somebody about this forum where he worked and they went home, and checked out what he was up to ( there's a good chance of that also ),
thought he was doing something bad and decided to report him.

anyway that's sad news, I missed all of that when it happened, I hope he has found employment again.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 12, 2004, 06:25:31 PM
I've had quite a day today, one of the more interesting and satisfying in a long while. What started it all off was an effort to try to answer some of Giotto's questions about the Giusto flour and Chris Bianco's use of flours for his Neapolitan style pizzas that Peter Reinhart has spoken so highly of in his book "American Pie".  

My journey began early this morning by calling the local Whole Foods store in Dallas to find out who supplies their bulk flours and, in particular, whether Giusto's was one of the suppliers, as it is for the Whole Foods store that Giotto frequents. In speaking with the "flour" department, I was told Giusto's is not a supplier to the Dallas Whole Foods. Their suppliers are organic suppliers, namely, Arrowhead and Rocky Mountain. Arrowhead is also the supplier of the vital wheat gluten.

I then decided to call Giusto's directly to see if I could find out which Giusto flour Chris Bianco uses. I spoke to two people at Giusto's, both of whom were very nice, but neither could answer the question.  I was informed that Bianco orders from a distributor in the Phoenix area and, consequently, they had no direct knowledge of the particular flour used in his pizzeria. I was told that the closest flour Giusto's has for something like a Neapolitan pizza dough is their basic all-purpose flour.  

Not to be deterred, I headed for Google to do some searching on Chris Bianco and his pizzeria. I found reference to an article that had been written in the October 1999 issue of Gourmet magazine that purpordedly included a Chris Bianco pizza dough recipe using all-purpose flour.  I tried my best but couldn't come up with the recipe. I even emailed a friend of mine who subscribes to Gourmet magazine and asked if she saved old issues (she didn't).  However--of greater value as it turns out-- I found a forum website in which Peter Reinhart had participated, and stumbled upon an email address that I believe is his wife's, Susan. I figured I had nothing to lose, so I composed and sent an email to Peter Reinhart using the address I found, not knowing whether it was still a valid address. I mentioned in the email that I was surprised to see that his recipe for Neapolitan pizza dough uses all-purpose flour and not 00 flour or "equivalents" to 00 flour (like combinations of bread or all-purpose and cake or pastry flour), and that I was trying to find out which Giusto flour Chris Bianco was using in his pizzeria for his Neapolitan style doughs so that I could use it myself in Peter's Neapolitan pizza dough recipe. I perhaps had a thousand other questions I would have liked to haved asked, but I figured I shouldn't press my luck and limit the email to the question at hand.

Since I still didn't have an answer to the nagging Giusto flour question, I decided to take a chance and call Pizzeria Bianco in Phoenix. I knew that the pizzeria opens later in the day, but I surmised that someone was likely to be around getting ready for the evening's business. As it turned out, Chris Bianco was out, but I got his brother Marco. We chatted a bit about the pizzeria and Peter Reinhart's glowing reviews but gradually the conversation turned to the pizza dough operation when I mentioned that I was a home pizza maker who was passionate about pizza making but who suffers like most home pizza makers in achieving pizza nirvana.  

I guess that was all he needed to get going and he proceeded to speak at great length about the pizzeria and his brother's and his devotion to pizza making.  As we spoke, I made sure to ask him which Giusto flour his brother Chris was using, since that was the question I was still trying to get answered (like a dog biting your pants and refusing to let go).  He was somewhat guarded about the question (he says they get a call like mine at least once a day and that Chris was unlikely to answer that question either), but he did say that Chris actually uses a mixture of several flours, not from a single source but from three or more, apparently including Giusto's among them, with the goal of achieving a targeted protein level (which is regularly measured). He added that they are constantly testing and tweaking flours and dealing with problems like humidity and heat, the variations of summer and winter temperatures, and admitted that they have bad days where everything goes wrong (but the pizzas are great) and days where everything goes right (but the pizzas aren't) even when they are doing their best to achieve consistency in whatever they do (a frustrating and almost unattainable objective, he confessed). His comments prompted me to ask him about dough temperatures and he answered that they were very careful about dough temperatures, using water temperature to control dough temperature (based on flour and room temperature, and frictional temperature, which he admitted would be small for hand mixing--basically the temperature of the hands mixing and kneading the dough). He added that he felt even home pizza makers should use dough temperature control. He also applauded the use of the "windowpane" test as a way of determining when a dough has been sufficiently kneaded.  As best I can tell, the doughs are not normally subjected to refrigeration but rather are started in the morning and left to rise during the day (and punched down several times). He added that they do use a piece of old dough, which I think is called a "chef" or "levain" by bread makers (which is Marco's role in the pizzeria), but I couldn't tell whether that was a standard practice or an occasional departure from the standard practice.

As for some of the other ingredients used by the pizzeria, they use a fresh yeast, hand-made cow's milk mozzarella cheese, fresh herbs and as many fresh and organic ingredients as possible. Marco added that they don't use buffalo mozzarella cheese on pizzas because it doesn't bake well under high oven temperatures (because of high fat levels), it's watery and, that even in Italy, which he visits frequently, cow's milk mozzarella cheese is used much more than buffalo mozzarella cheese on pizzas and that the buffalo mozzarella cheese is used more as a delicacy and for other dishes. Marco said that their cow's milk mozzarella cheese was very creamy, however.

I would estimate that Marco and I spoke for close to an hour. He was very gracious with his time and knowledge and invited me to come to the pizzeria sometime (which I plan to do since my son and his family live in nearby Scottsdale) and to look him up when I do.

Shortly after I hung up with Marco Bianco, to my surprise I received a reply from Peter Reinhart to my email. He thanked me for my note and proceeded to say that Chris Bianco uses a bread flour, not all-purpose, and that, he (Peter) too has found that he likes bread flour better than all-purpose and Italian 00, especially when he hydrates it fully. He added that he thinks it's a more toothsome and flavorful flour, and pointed out that the King Arthur All Purpose, which is a little higher in protein than other brands, also has that quality. He further pointed out that with lower protein flours it is necessary to lower the hydration to get it to hold together, and that '00' flour needs very little water, but the negative trade off in a home oven is that it tends to dry out during the necessarily longer bake (7 minutes vs. 1 minute in Italian "fornos".)  He said that Chris Bianco bakes his pizzas about 3 minutes, which he can do because of the higher hydration.  

Peter concluded by saying that pizza making is basically all about personal preference and comfort zones, and flavor/texture preferences. He recommended that I play with them all. Before closing his reply he added that he was not sure which Giusto flour Bianco uses, but he thought it was an organic bread flour but couldn't recall the specific name.  He suggested that I try calling Keith Giusto at his new bakery in Penn Grove, CA--possibly under the name Full Circle Bakery. He gave me Keith's email address and said Keith now has his own line of flours and might be willing to send me some to try. Peter asked me to keep him posted. As it turns out, I had already found Keith Giusto's telephone number and called it earlier in the day before calling Pizzeria Bianco, only to learn that Keith was out today and would be back in the bakery tomorrow and would talk to me then (and answer any questions I have) if I wanted to call back (which I plan to do). (As an aside, I had read that Keith is a family maverick who spun off from the Giusto flour business and now was in the flour business on his own).

Well, that about sums it up. If anything, what I experienced today was evidence of the passion that exists with pizza makers all over.

Peter
P.S. Both of the Biancos come from the Bronx area of New York.  Marco said one of his favorite New York-area pizzerias is Grimaldi's, under the Brooklyn Bridge.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Foccaciaman on August 12, 2004, 08:59:26 PM
Impressive work on the info Pete-zza. ;D
Very interesting and informative information.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Steve on August 12, 2004, 09:07:30 PM
Wow  :o

I'm impressed!
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 13, 2004, 01:22:30 AM
Pete-zza:

Thank you for not giving up, and letting us in on your great day.  You had a chance to experience first hand what takes place when people with great stature share thoughts with you that comprise their passion, as well as their convictions.  The thing that makes these individuals so unique is that they rarely, if ever, take the time to look in the mirror.

As you know, Chris Bianco trained in Italy, so the similarities and differences are very interesting.  He uses the dough same day, which is similar (as you and I have discussed before) with Naple's pizzerias.  BUT, as we've discussed as well, it certainly is not an easy task for Bianco, since he employs a non-00 flour and no added sugar.  If he works off an existing dough, that should leverage existing sugars, acids, etc. for taste.  Opening later in the day helps as well, and potentially a bit of extra salt.

When you mentioned that he used old dough, I jumped for joy, thinking for just one moment that this endeavor of mine may be worthwhile after all. I still can't imagine developing 50lbs of flour by hand though, unless I had 50 people to help.  Adding existing dough sure doesn't help the matter.  Staging is the only technique that I have been able to use to reduce the workload by hand.  But still...

When it comes to dough, I have to keep in mind Chris' philosophy on the subject.  He believes that "it's really in the feel," and he will obviously go to any extreme to meet this goal.  When I go out to my garden for fresh (organic) basil for my pizza and I think about how cool it would be to serve the public this way, I keep in mind that Chris does this exact thing every day (only in the desert).  

The concept of "bread" flour from Giusto can be misleading though. With an exception to their high gluten flours, Giusto's protein levels are below the "All Purpose" levels of King Arthur (11.7%) and certainly the bread levels of King Arthur and even Gold Medal speciality (12.7%).  Below is a list of Giusto's bread flours.  Please note that the protein levels I mention are from the vendor's specifications, and not my caculations:

1) Giusto's Artisan Unbleached Bread Flour
    (Unbleached malted wheat flour, 11-11.5% protein.)
2) Giusto's Bakers' Choice Unbleached Bread Flour - Organic  
    (100% organic, unbleached wheat flour, 11-11.5% protein.)
3) Giusto's High Performer High Gluten Unbleached Bread Flour
    (High gluten unbleached wheat flour, 13-13.5% protein.)
 4) Giusto's Ultimate Performance High Gluten Unbleached Bread Flour - Organic
    (High gluten unbleached wheat flour, 13-13.5% protein.)
 5) Giusto's Whole Wheat Stone Ground High Gluten Bread Flour (Medium) - Organic
    (100% whole wheat flour, stone ground milling method. 13-13.5% protein.)
 
I would be surprised if Chris uses their high gluten flour-- it would seem too far of a departure from 00 flour.  But Peter on the other hand may be referring to bread flour in the same vain as he does in his book-- closer to the high gluten levels.  I'd be curious at what % protein he is suggesting a better taste, closer to a 12.7% and higher level, or at the Giusto's 11.7% level?  For me personally, I have not had very good results making my own dough with less than 12.7% protein.

Chris' comments regarding Buffalo Mozzarella are in synch with a comment that I had mentioned before from  a fellow who grew up in Italy.  Tourists learn to ask for it though, and I certainly enjoy it in my "under 600 F" oven, because of its lighter texture and generally better taste, which others enjoy with their salads..  If you shred Grande, I think you will find it very rich in texture, without being watery.

I was not at all surprised that his brother was reluctant to share too much on the exact ingredients.  And, I believe that the reason extends well beyond its proprietary nature.  In fact, I believe that it is for the same reason that Chris will not take his pizzeria public.  In an interview with Peter Reinhart, Chris stated his secret:

"The secret is, well, it's me.  I'm the secret.  It's my passion, my energy, my commitment.  I can't bottle that..."
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 13, 2004, 02:12:10 AM
Pete-zza:

By the way, I was looking at the notes regarding the formula "W = (Pi x R x R) x F" With a 14" pizza, I would have 3.14*7*7*.11, which would give me 16.9 oz, not 15+ oz for a 14" pizza.  Am I missing something?


Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 13, 2004, 10:37:49 AM
Giotto,

No, your math is right.  It's just that I assumed that a New York style pizza crust would qualify as thin, and used F=0.10.  To repeat, for a 14-in. pizza (R=7), the three weights would be 15.5 ounces for a thin crust (F=0.10), 17 ounces for a medium crust (F=0.11), and 18.5-20 ounces for a thick crust (F=0.12-0.13), all based on the formula you noted in your post.   When I have made doughs for New York style pizzas, I could easily see through the stretched dough.  Hence, I assumed the proper F factor was 0.10.  It almost doesn't matter though, since you can decide what thickness you want and then select the right F factor.

Peter
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: canadave on August 13, 2004, 10:45:17 AM
Interesting.  My opinion would be that NY pizza should be classified as "medium"; i.e. somewhere between thin crust and deep dish.  True NY pizza isn't really either one of those (in terms of crust thickness).

--Dave
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Foccaciaman on August 13, 2004, 11:25:24 AM
Dave,  I have to agree with you on this to a point.

When I hear discussion on different crust types I hear thin, deep dish and I think the other classifications are somewhat vague.

The problem I have when reading a persons description of a pizza is that without a picture or definitive thickness , you can't be sure what it is.
I think that there are actually 4 different crust categories.

1. Thin/crispy/cracker/wafer (or whatever your preference of name)

2. Thin(again now this would be the NewYork thin crust)

3. Original,American,(pizza hut calls it hand tossed) I would say this varies from .25 inches to almost .5 inches, which is dangerously close to our final category.

4. Deep Dish/Pan Style/Thick crust(of course you have to allow for the Deep Dish pies that are not thick crust, but slightly thinner as a stuffed pizza is.

I am sure that some will disagree with this assesment but it the best way I can describe it. Maybe someone else can chime in and help these definitions. ;D
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 13, 2004, 11:51:17 AM
Giotto,

I found it interesting the diversity of opinion surrounding the flour Chris Bianco uses.  I didn't expect Marco Bianco to give away the pizzeria's trade secrets.  That is all the pizzeria has to differentiate itself from others, even if is clouded somewhat in PR--just as Krispy Kreme does, for example, to create an aura and mystique about its product.  I took away from my discussion with Marco that the mixture of different flours lowers the overall protein content, which would make sense for a Neapolitan style pizza.  

I have read more than once that private investors have approached the Bianco brothers about expanding the business.  From my observations, unless you want to become another Domino's (which recently did an IPO) or Papa John's or even a mini-chain like Patsy's or John's in New York that started out as single units, expanding from a single artisanal-type business based on a few passionate owners to a chain of them will usually lead to a rigid system of rules and procedures to be followed by everyone and destroy the very thing that differentiated the business from others and made it a success.   The motives then become profit and, while the trade secrets in such an instance could still be protected (just as Coke, a publically owned enterprise, preserves its trade secrets), you would then have to rely on others--who are not similarly motivated as the original owners--to run your business.  They would eventually destroy the business and its good will and, it is quite possible, that some or all of the trade secrets could eventially be lost.  After all, we are not talking about rocket science.

Keep in mind also that not everyone loves Pizzeria Bianco and its pizzas.  As I was doing my searching yesterday, I saw several reviews of the restaurant and its pizzas that were far from flattering--from the quality of the pizzas to the service (there are often waits of more than 1 to 2 hours and reservations are taken only for parties of 6 or more).   I have learned that highly successful restaurants--the ones that everyone flocks to because of their popularity and rave reviews from the press--create a level of expectations, wittingly or unwittingly, that cannot always be satisfied for everyone.   What I usually worry about is that the owners start to believe their own press and become greedy and start raising prices to levels that only the wealthiest among us can afford.  Puck, Lagasse and others have built personal fortunes this way.  It will be interesting to see what happens to Pizzeria Bianco in this regard.  I didn't sense when I spoke with Marco Bianco yesterday that the resolve of the two brothers is weakening in any way (although Marco repeated over and over how many hours he and his brother put into the business)--but who knows?

Peter
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 13, 2004, 12:19:56 PM
Foccaciaman,

I am not trying to dodge the issue, but I tend to view the cracker-type and deep-dish crusts as holding up opposite ends of the spectrum and, to a degree, as exceptions.  I understand that the cracker type crusts were popular in the '50s and '60s in the Chicago area and, while they are still popular, they are not as popular as they once were.  In the area where I live, outside of Dallas, for example, I am only aware of one pizzeria (a very successful one, by the way), that features the really thin crust pizzas.  I don't know that the simple equation I posted will work all that well for the really thin crust pizzas.  It may be possible through experimentation to come up with "F" factors for that particular style.  

As for the deep-dish pizzas, they are growing in popularity around the country, but they are still largely associated with the Chicago area and are distinctly different from the other styles of pizzas.  The simple equation I posted cleary doesn't take the deep-dish pizzas into account, and obviously they require different dough weights than for other types of pizzas since the doughs for deep-dish pizzas will be spread along the bottoms and up the sides of the deep-dish pizza pans.  However, I have seen some typical weights of dough balls for different sized deep-dish pizzas.  They are as follows: 7-in. diameter, 6 ounces of dough; 8-in. diameter, 8 ounces; 10-in. diameter, 12 ounces; 12-in. diameter, 17 ounces; 14-in. diameter, 23 ounces; and 16-in. diameter, 30 ounces.  I don't know how these weights square with what members of this forum have personally experienced or used.  I offer the deep-dish dough weights as only guidelines that might provide some help in the sizing and scaling of doughs for deep-dish pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 13, 2004, 04:42:56 PM
While many places outside of Chicago, unfortunately, associate deep dish with very thick dough, I've had my share of doughs in Chicago that are quite to the contrary.  

As I mentioned earlier, Chris believes the secret is within himself and that can't be bottled up.  I agree though, sometimes I find it amazing what information certain pizzerias pass on.  But then, I find that whatever I pass on one day is far behind me a few weeks later.  And sometimes when you share, you learn as well. People who bottle things up, and need things to be concrete for the kids making the pizza are certainly a different story.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Foccaciaman on August 13, 2004, 04:45:05 PM
Of the over 10 pizza resturaunts that I have in my city (population 30,000 only) 4 of them serve a thin or cracker crust.  
And I do agree that the cracker crust and the deep dish/ pan pizza ( and I have to include both, for I have had many deep dish pizzas with a crust that is not much thicker that a New York Style medium).

I would also have to say that the that there is quite a widespread interest in the thin crust, especially in circles of people that are taken with the evil Atkins diet craze. IMHO I think that by the numbers, thin cracker like crust are even more popular today.

However I also think I missed a group of crusts which is somewhat unique.
 The Cardboard Crust (aka the frozen Tombstone Pizza)
Which, I do not totally dislike.
Of course if you truly love pizza , even a bad pizza is better than no pizza at all. (not that I actually eat that many frozen pizzas)
I do actually eat and make pizza at least 4 - 5 meals a week for the last 20 years. Technically making my own for only about 5 years though, at least making good pizza. :)

It is sort of like the way that I describe pizza to people, when asked what I think is the best.

I tell them that it is apples and oranges. Unless two pizzas are very close to the same I cannot rate them as which is better. I could tell you which I prefer to eat though.
ex: I love Chicago Deep dish, and I also love New York Style, but neither is better than the other.
It would be like comparing Filet Mignon and Lobster , I love both but they are different, and at any given time I may crave either. ;D

My only point was to attempt to clarify the middle ground in the middle of the two extremes. And I think that to many people, what is thin is not always thin and thick is not always thick. The only way for one person to judge is to take all the pizzas in there personal life experience, seen or eaten, and draw their own conclusions as to catagories.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Randy G on August 13, 2004, 05:23:31 PM
Of course if you truly love pizza , even a bad pizza is better than no pizza at all

You have obviously never attempted to eat a Mama Rosa's pizza. Pick one up at Kroger, you'll see how horrible they are.

Of the frozen pizza, I actually can tolerate the cheap 90 cent Kroger ones. The Tombstone Mexican pizzas aren't too bad in a pinch. I'd like to try to replicate them, if I can just find a store in this town that has them.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 13, 2004, 05:30:24 PM
Pete-zza:

Regarding the formula, thank you for clearing that up.  

Since my crusts range from probably a medium near the crust to a thin skin at the end of each slice, I can see the difference in final results. In addition, when I have some extra dough, it goes into a thicker crust at the end and makes for a less circular shape.  
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 13, 2004, 06:07:31 PM
Foccaciaman,

Points all well taken.  I sensed as I was reading Peter Reinhart's book that even he seemed to be struggling a bit to fit different styles of pizzas into nice convenient categories.   I guess it's in our nature to want to do that, to organize our minds better, and especially if you are trying to write a book on the subject.  

Peter
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 13, 2004, 06:53:16 PM
Reinhart's descriptions of pizza crusts were on my mind as well when I read through some of the comments, and I find them useful as general categories.

- The Roman pizzas that he mentions are cracker like, and I would not confuse this with what he terms Neo-Neopolitan.  I show college kids how to use flour tortillas in the oven to make an inexpensive cracker-like personal pizza with Margherita-style toppings that meets their time demands and exceeds their experience with much of the frozen stuff.  Total carbs: 20g per personal pizza.

- The Neo-Neopolitan pizza crust (thin crisp crust with air pockets) and the New York style (slightly thicker) have a chewier crust, and is what I feel is basically different experiences that people may have with NY style pizzas

- American crust is the high-order demand pizza that covers so much of the other stuff out there, requiring extra strength for the extra toppings (Costco comes to mind, $9.99 for an 18" which people are all over because they can get it with the works).  Tends to be thicker than NY style crust, and is generally softer & less chewy crust.

Chicago style, which is normally made with cornmeal.  Although Reinhart also mentions that non-cornmeal is made as well.  The upside down nature of the ingredients and thicker layers of sauce tend to differ this pizza for many people, and is the reason I add cornmeal when I make it.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pierre on August 13, 2004, 07:21:21 PM
Boy Pierre, I'm glad you joined our list ! , je suis heureux !  you gave some really good
words of wisdom here, merci pour ca.

Mark

Merci beucoup Mark..... I am also very glad to have joined this Forum. It's been a great experience and as I see we both joined in October 2003.

Bon soir mon ami....


Pierre
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 13, 2004, 08:24:52 PM
Following up on Peter Reinhart's suggestion that I talk to Keith Giusto about flours, I was finally able today to reach and speak with Keith late today.  He is a busy guy, with both a bakery (Full Circle Bakery) and a flour business.  As I mentioned in an earlier post, Keith is one of the SF Giusto clan who decided to go into business for himself.  After talking to him it became evident that he is a real flour artist.   He seemed even to know the provenance of his flours, like exactly where the wheat came from.  I also learned that he doesn't sell at the retail level, but he did say that he does milling for the Giusto family and gave me the name of someone at Giusto's to speak with to make arrangements to have several different flours milled by Keith sent to me.   As it turned out, when I tried to call the Giusto contact I was told that he was out and won't be back in the office until next Wednesday.  I intend to follow up, of course.

When I spoke with Keith, I had Giotto's helpful post on the different Giusto flours in front of me to compare them with what Keith might have in mind for me to try.  Keith suggested that I try three of his specialty flours: Artisan, with 11.5-12 percent protein; Keith's Best, with 12.2-12.5 percent protein; and High-Protein, with 13.5-14 percent protein.  (I was scribbling fast as Keith spoke so I may not have the flour names exactly right.)  When I complained that we have been having a tough time ascertaining protein levels of flours, he said that he specifies the protein percentages for all his flours.  He also laughed when I told him the protein level I had found for one of the 00 flours I regularly use.  He said that he questioned the level and wondered whether it was high enough to make a pizza.  Now you know why I chose the byline "Always learning".  The truth is mighty elusive.

Once I understand how to work with the Giustos to gain access to Keith's flours, I will of course share what I learn, and especially so if it looks like there is a possibility for the members of this forum to buy such flours if they so wish.  I will also have a better handle on pricing.  I would love to find a way to get access to high quality flours without being so dependent on KA, particularly for the high-gluten Sir Lancelot flour which the KA people are so adamant about making available at stores throughout the country--which is puzzling since the distribution system is firmly in place and adding another product shouldn't be a big deal.  I don't where Penn Grove, CA is in relation to Giotto, but if it's close maybe Giotto might be willing to check out Keith's operation and even buy some baked goods to raise his carb levels :).

Peter
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Foccaciaman on August 13, 2004, 08:28:09 PM
"even a bad pizza is better than no pizza at all"

Ok, I will have to concede that there are some truly awful inedible pizzas out there. As a matter of fact...

About a month ago I was at a food festival with my wife and kids and as we were stolling around I noticed a pizza stand that was from a local award winning resturaunt selling slices.
One of their employees was walking around with a tray full of samples and saying "Want to try the best pizza in town", so of course I grabbed one and popped it in my mouth.
 :o :o :( :( :(
I could not spit this disgusting vomit topped piece of garbage out fast enough. I waited a moment until the employee turned his back to give someone else a piece of cardboard, then I spit into my napkin.
I remember thinking "hell, I would not feed that to my dogs!"

So I guess I just try and remember only the good pizzas and shut all others from my memory. ;D
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 13, 2004, 08:38:40 PM
Foccaciaman:

I'm happy I was at home instead of eating award winning pizza at a festival.

Today, here's the steps that followed suit for my pizza experience, which is a cross between Neo-neopolitan & New York style, which I collectively refer to as NY style. The crust is chewy, slightly charred, bottom is crispy, and each slice is thicker near the outter crust, and slims down to a droop as it reaches a thinner skin at the end.

Today's bag of dough out of refrigerator (dough is not dry, yet no sticking after 2 days in refrigerator):
(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/bagn.jpg)


Approx 14" Pepperoni/basil Pizza on serving tray (with 1 slice of grande/edam cheese only, hold the pepperoni/basil; nothing like customer service).  This was taken out of 530 F oven after dough sat for 40 minutes in a small bowl covered with a wet towel, no oils added to bowl:
(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/pizzan.jpg)


Slice from pizza that starts as medium thickness near crust and comes to a thin ending
(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/slicen.jpg)


Empty pizza pan waiting for next pizza in oven.
(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/screenn.jpg)
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 13, 2004, 08:59:51 PM
Pete-zza:

It looks like he is near the wine country, on the other side of the Golden Gate bridge.  I'll be in the vicinity this week; but I'm not sure if I want to stop by if he will not let me leave with some flour.  This sort of thing can cause people to go postal or something.

Are you saying that he would not ship his flour directly to you; but instead, you must go through Giusto's?  Did you say you have worked with Giusto's baker's and/or other variations before, mixed in with their vital (70% or so) gluten?  If so, what did you think?

His Artisan, so named after Giusto's Artisan, looks like about the same protein;  but his 12% and higher glutens are a departure.  Did he mention what the difference is between the composition and location of his wheat flours vs. Giusto's?
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 13, 2004, 09:45:35 PM
Giotto,

It may be possible for you to buy some flour from Keith if you were to make prior arrangements to do so.  I would just call, at 1-707-794-9445, and ask the gal who answers if it is possible to buy some flour there at the bakery.  Keith said that he doesn't bag up flour in small amounts, so there may be some minimum purchase quantity.  It can't hurt to ask. Otherwise, the only viable alternative seems to be buying Keith's flours through Giusto's.  

I have not tried the Giusto flours.  I thought I might have bought some, without knowing it, from my local Whole Foods, but having called them yesterday it seems like I was using someone else's flour.

I did not think to ask Keith about all the differences between his flours and those of Giusto's, other than the fact that Keith apparently has his own milling company.  He did speak proudly, however, about the color (yellow) of his flours (one or more) and its apparent improved flavor contribution, which suggests that his flours may differ from those sold by Giusto's.  I should be able to learn more once I have a chance to speak to the Giusto contact Keith gave to me.  Keith offered to help me resolve any problems I might have in using his flours to make pizza doughs.  That's not an offer that many would be willing to make.  Clearly, it helped to mention Peter Reinhart's name.  As much an artisan that Keith is, I don't know that I would have gotten my foot in the door otherwise.    

Peter  
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 13, 2004, 10:20:06 PM
Thanks Pete-zza, interesting points Keith made about the colors of his flour.

I may call Giusto's as well in South San Francisco at 650-873-6566. They are not near as far away; but it's never clear if they actually have a front store open to the public, or ordering forum for just professionals with minimal orders.  I don't mind purchasing 50lb bags, which are usually about $10 or so; but when I get into $70 minimum orders to do a test, that's a different story.

Red hard wheat seems to go only so high in gluten levels.  So what is the difference between us mixing vital gluten, with higher gluten levels from the endosperm vs. what is delivered by the manufacturer in their higher gluten levels?  I'm wondering what I'll get by doing my own mix with Giusto's baker's unbleached bread flour with their vital gluten (in the bins at Whole Foods) vs. what is delivered by the manufacturer?

Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 14, 2004, 01:06:48 AM
Giotto,

You can always add vital wheat gluten to other flours to increase the protein and gluten levels.  The main problem is determining how much to add and determining the final protein/gluten level without having some fancy instrument to do the measuring for you.  The usual recommendation is to add about 1-2 teaspoons of vital wheat gluten for each cup of flour that is to be augmented with the vital wheat gluten.   But, it is not clear for which type of flour.  That is, what are the specific amounts to add to all-purpose flour, bread flour, pastry flour or cake flour?  I once added 2 teaspoons of vital wheat gluten to each cup of cake flour and was able to make a pretty good pizza dough.  What I ended up with may no longer have been cake flour, but what was it then?  Maybe adding one or two teaspoons to any given type of flour ratches the protein/gluten level up to the next notch (like going from all-purpose flour to bread flour or bread flour to high-gluten flour).  I just don't know absent having some instrument to tell me what I did in precise terms.  

The more accurate way to do the augmentation, of course, is to use baker's percents, and in the case of vital wheat gluten, it is 2-4% by weight of flour.  So, unless you have an expensive and accurate scale, you will have to find another way to convert from weight to volume, or resort to trial and error and see how the dough shapes up and what kind of crust it produces.   Once you get a satisfactory result, then you will have the formula down pat and be able to replicate it.  But it is hardly a scientific way to do things.

Peter
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 14, 2004, 02:59:40 AM
Pete-zza:

I think the technique to do it is not so bad.  My concern was what is the difference between how I produce my outcome and the way manufacturer's produce their outcome of high gluten flours.  While I use a mix of vital gluten, the manufacturer probably uses different hard wheat berries, and I assume that they need to extract the endosperm as we do with vital gluten to get their high gluten levels of 13% and higher.

My way to calc protein is to first look up the exact protein levels according to spec sheets, using exact same 1/4 cup serving sizes.  Once I know that, then I can calculate exactly how much to add in order to obtain my expected gluten level.

I just bought some Giusto flour (75 cents/lb) and their gluten flour (2.29 lb), from the Whole Foods' bins.  One thing is for sure, the label is WAY OFF for the GIUSTO Baker's choice bread flour:
------------------------------------------
Nutritional Facts
Serving Size: 1/4 cup (30g)
Servings Per Container: 75  
 
Amount Per Serving
Calories 110  Calories from Fat 0  
 %Daily Value*  
 Total Fat  0.5g  0%  
   Saturated Fat  0g  0%  
Cholesterol  0mg  0%  
Sodium  0mg  0%  
Total Carbohydrates  23g  8%  
   Sugars  < 1g  
Protein  3g    
Vitamin A 0%    Vitamin C 0%  
Calcium 0%    Iron 8%  
 *Percentage Daily Values based on a 2,000 calorie diet.  
---------------------------------------
According to this, you'd get 10% protein which is unworthy of a label that uses the term "bread" on it.  As you know, their spec sheet states "11.7%".  If I didn't have their specs, then I've found it more favorable in the past to add PROTEIN + CARBS, and divide the total by PROTEIN.  In this case, it would give me: 3/(3 + 23) or 11.5%, a bit closer.  Best to use the specs when available as we've learned.

I'll let you know what I come up with as the final calculation for a mixture to arrive at 14%; I think in the past I calculated 1 tsp/cup for an all purpose 11.7%; I once tried 1 TBL per cup because I didn't calculate, and I got a board.

GOOD NEWS.  I realized that even though I had tried to do a special order with King Arthur high gluten through Whole Foods, I had not done this with Giusto's flour; so first things first.  I went in, asked for their "accepted" list of flours.  We combed through Giusto's, and sure ENOUGH, the following list is available for their higher gluten flours:

- Giusto unbleached Peak Performer Bread Flour (*12.68%)

- Guisto unbleached High Protein flour (Unknown)

- Guisto Ultimate Performance High Gluten flour (13 - 13.5% according to Guisto's specifications, not my calculation)

The last item is the only one available in a case of six 5lb bags; otherwise, they are each available in a 50lb bag.  I don't trust the 2nd item (high protein), because it looks like it is a whole wheat.

*The gluten level of the 1st item (peak performer bread flour) looks like it is 12.68%-- I didn't even know about this item.  The protein level was not available from Giusto, I had to find it in a study done on their product.

I'm going in tomorrow and doing an order.  I'll let you know other options for ordering from the store.  I think it is cheaper because you get a 15% or so discount when you order a case.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 14, 2004, 04:02:52 AM
I see Keith's Best listed by Giusto's; I'll have to see if Keith's higher gluten flour is available at Whole Foods-- I forgot to check if it was on Whole Foods list in their 2004 catalog.  

I know your interest in Keith's flour goes beyond gluten levels.  But as an FYI, you can get a higher gluten flour than Keith's best in Gold Medal Speciality unbleached bread flour, which is 12.7% (pre-sifted yellow bag available at just about any store).   KA's bread flour is 12.7% as well.   I actually had better results with Gold Medal's unbleached bread flour than with KA on one occassion.  
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 14, 2004, 10:19:00 AM
Giotto,

I now better understand the question you were posing about comparable protein levels between what a manufacturer produces and what you might produce using vital wheat gluten.  I sometimes have wondered how manufacturers increase the gluten content of their flours, that is, by using a different type of wheat, adding additional gluten, or possibly both.  

Out of curiosity, I went to the PMQ site this morning and did a search on vital wheat gluten.  These days, vital wheat gluten often comes up in the context of low carb pizza but it also comes up in the context of increasing protein content as we have been discussing.  I found a couple of discussions on this latter aspect.  What I found says that "when adding gluten [vital wheat gluten] to a flour, remember that for each 250 grams that you add to 22.5 Kg of flour you will increase the total protein content of the flour by 0.6%. For example: If you have 22.5 Kg flour with 10% protein content and you add 500 grams of gluten, the protein content of the flour will now be 11.2%; if you were to add 1.250 Kg of gluten to the flour the protein content would increase to 13%, and so on",  and "for each 1% vital wheat gluten (based on flour weight) that you add, you will increase the protein content of the flour by 0.6%."  (Quoted material from PMQ).  I haven't gone through the math in detail but doing this calculation would seem to go a long way toward answering the question I posed in an earlier post about the effects of vital wheat gluten on transforming flour from one level to another (e.g., all-purpose flour to bread flour).

You indicate that you are inclined to buy flour in large quantity.   I have so many flours on hand that I tend to buy in only 5- and 10-pound bags.  The rated shelf life that millers use is about 1 year (in a cool, dark place in an airtight container), and I have limited freezer space to extend that shelf life.  Even at that, in Texas, where it gets quite toasty, I have found that I have to be careful not to have my flours infested with flour weevils. The flour weevils develop from eggs that are already in the flour at the time of purchase.  The first thing I do when I buy a new bag of flour is to freeze it for several days. The pre-freezing kills the eggs and allows me to keep the flour in my pantry rather than in the freezer.  The weevil problem is more common in warm climates, which provide a more hospitable and therapeutic environment for the flour weevils than colder climates.  Although their presence may be disturbing, the weevils are not harmful (they actually add a little bit more protein to your flour :)).  If there are only a few weevils, they can be sifted or scooped out.   However, if there is significant infestation, it is best to discard the flour and start all over with new flour that has been pre-frozen (for several days) to kill any weevil eggs that might be present.  After freezing, I then store the flour in airtight containers to prevent possible infestation from outside (the flour weevils can eat through the paper bags used to package flour).  

Some home bakers recommend putting bay leaves in the flour containers to deter flour weevils.  I have a bay leaf plant (it's closer to a tree) in my back yard with about five lifetimes' worth of bay leaves, and have put them all over my pantry where my flour is stored, in with flour, in the containers, etc. However, I have not found doing so to be effective.  I found pre-freezing to be the only remedy to work for me.

Peter


Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 14, 2004, 03:44:13 PM
Pete-zza:

Thanks for the update.  I have no choice but to buy bulk, at least six 5 lb bags, which will last me about 2 months.  Our house is 73 F most of the summer, no air conditioning required; pantry is a bit less. But a couple weeks out of the year, it can go up.  Sounds best to do the freeze trick.

I had seen the PMQ calc some time back; but I need to revisit it.

Here is my calculation:

Giusto's protein levels: bakers flour: 11.5%; vital wheat: 70%  

Hi-Gluten Preference, so I can compare it to what I purchase: 13.5%

Protein grams per 1/4 cup volume (30g): Bakers flour=3.45g; vital wheat gluten=21g; Hi-Gluten Preference=4.05g

Additonal Protein required for Bakers flour per 1/4 cup: 4.05g - 3.45g = .60g

Vital Gluten Portions required per 1/4 cup: 21g/.60g = 35 portions of vital gluten per 1/4 cup

Convert Vital Gluten Portions to tsp: 1/4 cup = 12 tsp; hence, 2.9167 Vital Gluten portions per tsp or .3429 of a tsp

Now multiple by 8 to account for 2 cups = 8*.3429 = 2.74 tsp of vital gluten for 2 cups of flour using 11.5g Bakers flour

Add 2.74 tsp of 70% protein vital gluten to Bakers flour to raise 2 cups of flour from 11.5% to 13.5% protein.  Keep in mind that King Arthur's all purpose is 11.7%, so this pretty much applies to it as well.

Let us see what happens if I use the 1% rule of thumb:

.01 * 21g = .21g of vital gluten per 1/4 cup will give me .6% increase in gluten level.

I need 2% increase in protein: 2%/.6% = 3.3333 times; 3.3333 x .21g = .6993g of vital gluten per 1/4 cup

According to the 1% calc; I'd add .69g more of vital gluten; opposed to .60 that I came up with.  Seems close.  Let us see the difference.

21g/.69 = 30.4348 portions of vital gluten per 1/4 cup

Convert Vital Gluten Portions to tsp: 1/4 cup = 12 tsp; hence, 2.5362 Vital Gluten portions per tsp or .3943 of a tsp

Now multiple by 8 to account for 2 cups = 8*.3493 = 3.15 tsp of vital gluten for 2 cups of flour using 11.5g Bakers flour

According to 1% rule, I would add 3.15 tsp (opposed to 2.74 tsp) of 70% protein vital gluten to Bakers flour to raise 2 cups of flour from 11.5% to 13.5% protein.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 14, 2004, 07:13:10 PM
Giotto,

Nice job on your analysis.

To be sure I understand the analysis, does the 4.05 gram figure represent the number of grams of protein for a 1/4-cup portion of an existing Giusto flour with 13.5% protein (a Giusto spec figure), and did you weigh a 1/4-cup portion of the vital wheat gluten to get the 21 gram figure?  And is there any way to tell which of the two approaches you used is the more accurate one?  Your analysis seems to suggest that one can effectively convert all-purpose flour to high-gluten flour by adding about 3 teaspoons of vital wheat gluten to each 2 cups of all-purpose flour.  I realize that the precise amount will depend on the percent of protein in the all-purpose flour and the particular vital wheat gluten used--which may vary from brand to brand--but I would think that about 3 teaspoons of vital wheat gluten for each 2 cups of all-purpose flour would pretty much do the trick for almost any brand of all-purpose flour.  Does that seem about right?

Your analysis prompted me to order a new scale today, a digital Soehnle scale like I read about some time ago at this forum.

Peter

Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 15, 2004, 02:37:11 AM
I went to see the movie, Open Waters.  Let me just say that it is best not to stray from a spot, unless someone you know is at the spot.  Now that I'm totally depressed from the movie, let me see if I can answer your questions.

In general, I've worked in entire industries that relied on rule of thumbs (ROTs), and I've generated my share of them.  When I see things like 1%, I see signs of a rule of thumb, which is meant to get customers within an acceptable level, while reducing error by its consistency and simplification.  My calculation, on the other hand, considers only the actual numbers from the manufacturer and was used to verify the accuracy of the 1% number.

The calculation can have a degree of inaccuracy, depending on these factors that come to mind:

1) The number of decimal positions.  I used 4 which has negligible impact on the final number.

2) The variation given by the manufacturer. In the case of Keith and Giusto's, for example, they provide their specifications within a given range.  Giusto's Baker's flour is 11% - 11.5% in their specs; I decided to choose 11.5%.

3) Unless you work with the manufacturer specs, the numbers extracted from the labels can be inconsistent, with wide variations.  All Purpose standards call for 9% - 12%; bread flour calls for 12 - 13%; and high gluten up to 15%.  Yet, Giusto's 11.5% "bread" flour does not fall within standard labeling convention (it's even less than KA's All Purpose).  In addition, the numbers on the labels can be way off because of the rounding you mentioned.  Giusto's label says "3 g protein for 30g serving."  This is 10%, which is way off from their 11.7% in their specs.

4) Do you add the Vital Gluten to 2 cups; or do you extract the number of Vital Gluten tsp from the Baker's flour to create a total of 2 cups?  In either case, you will be a bit off, since the calculation is based on 2 cups, not 2 cups +/- the amount of vital gluten (in this case, about 1 TBL).

Q #1: does the 4.05 gram figure represent the number of grams of protein for a 1/4-cup portion of an existing Giusto flour with 13.5% protein (a Giusto spec figure), and did you weigh a 1/4-cup portion of the vital wheat gluten to get the 21 gram figure?

Response: Since manufacturer specifications were available, I was able to avoid the use of labels, and produce the actual protein levels per 1/4 cup (30 g serving).  I am able to reverse engineer the formula you normally use to determine % proteins, since I am working with manufacturer specs for % protein that have not been rounded.

Bakers flour is 11.5% Protein: .115 * 30g (1/4 cup total serving) = 3.45g.

vital wheat gluten is 70%:  .7 * 30g = 21g

Hi-Gluten Preference is an arbitrary number. I picked 13.5% protein because that is what their protein level is that I am looking to purchase, and I want to be able to compare the differencs between how I achieve these numbers, and however Giusto's achieve their high gluten level.  The protein level was achieved by:  .135 * 30g = 4.05g
   
Question #2: is there any way to tell which of the two approaches you used is the more accurate one?

Response:  Rule of Thumbs normally pick a sweet spot and the accuracy goes down as you deviate from the sweet spot.  The calculation does not rely on a statistical reference, and is as accurate as the multiplication and division used within the equation.  In both cases, they rely on numbers not from the manufacturer, which is far better if provided by the manufacturer, rather than the label.

Question #3: Your analysis seems to suggest that one can effectively convert all-purpose flour to high-gluten flour by adding about 3 teaspoons of vital wheat gluten to each 2 cups of all-purpose flour.  I realize that the precise amount will depend on the percent of protein in the all-purpose flour and the particular vital wheat gluten used--which may vary from brand to brand--but I would think that about 3 teaspoons of vital wheat gluten for each 2 cups of all-purpose flour would pretty much do the trick for almost any brand of all-purpose flour.  Does that seem about right?

Response: Well, 11.7% is at the high end of the All Purpose flour, and as long as you use King Arthur, you're within this number.  But, if you use other All Purpose or Unbleached White Flours, the 11.7% can easily be 1% over in protein.  As you move into the Bread flours, you will be off by 1% the other way and you only need to add 1.1 tsp of vital to these flours (e.g., KA Bread & Gold Medal Specialty Bread are examples of 12.7%).  

I did the calculation for Bob's Red Mill Vital Gluten, since it is readily available at different stores in small bags, including Whole Foods (I even saw it at Safway or Albertsons).  It has very little impact, since it is 23g (just over 75% protein according to specs) instead of Giusto's 21g vital gluten.  For Giusto's Baker's Bread or KA All Purpose, you need to add 2 1/2 tsp (2.5) of Bob's Red Mill Vital Gluten.

Hence: To reach a high gluten level of 13.5%,

* Add just under 1 TBL (3 tsp) of Giusto's 70% Vital Gluten or 2 1/2 tsp of Bob's Red Mill Vital Gluten to KA's All Purpose flour or Giusto's Baker's flour.  

* Add just over 1 tsp of Giusto's Vital Gluten or exactly 1 tsp of Bob's Red Mill to either KA's Bread or Gold Medal Specialty Bread flour (5 lb yellow bag available just about anywhere).

The 13.5% was used with Giusto's high gluten in mind.  Other High Gluten flours are around 14.1% protein. Since Vital Glutens, such as Bob's Red Mill, is from the endosperm, it is similar to unbleached wheat flour that usually discards the outside bran, which is found in whole wheat.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 15, 2004, 11:39:39 AM
Giotto,

I didn't mean to put you to all that work, but many thanks.  And what you did clearly demonstrates how much of making pizza doughs is science--entailing accurate measurements and quantities.  

I assume that the additions of vital wheat gluten would be for 2-cup quantities of flour.  If so, I would be inclined to convert to 1-cup quantities just to be able to remember the numbers more easily.  

Thanks again.

Peter
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 15, 2004, 11:35:58 PM
Pete-zza:  

I agree. One cup is always good.  I tend to mess up unfortunately when I make multiple pizzas with a one cup formula memorized, because I end up employing only the one cup amount for an entire pizza... go figure.

Now that you are going to have a digital weighing machine, I am restating it in exact terms of grams and ounces:

To reach a high gluten level of 13.5% for 2 cups of flour (i.e., 240g or 8.43 oz), less the amount used for the additional vital gluten flour*:

- Add just under 1 TBL (3 tsp) of Giusto's 70% Vital Gluten or 2 1/2 tsp of Bob's Red Mill Vital Gluten to KA's All Purpose flour or Giusto's Baker's flour.  Start with 240g of flour, then reduce it by the amount of vital gluten added, enabling the entire mix to equal to 240g.  

- Add just over 1 tsp of Giusto's Vital Gluten or exactly 1 tsp of Bob's Red Mill Vital Gluten to either KA's Bread or Gold Medal Specialty Bread flour (5 lb yellow bag available just about anywhere).  Start with 240g of flour, then reduce it by the amount of vital gluten added, enabling the entire mix to equal to 240g.

Hence, if working with Gold Medal Specialty Bread flour or KA Bread flour & Bob's Red Mill Vital Gluten, start with 240g (or 8.43oz) of flour, reduce by 1 tsp, then add 1 tsp of Bob's Vital Gluten to reach an overall protein level of 13.5% protein and 240g of weight.

*I realize now that the calculation requires the final result to include the vital gluten as part of the final weight, which is 240g or 8.43 oz in this scenario.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Randy on August 16, 2004, 10:46:43 AM
Gitto try KA's high gluten flour, you will throw away that can of vitual gluten.

Randy
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 16, 2004, 01:25:43 PM
Randy:

You need to look at the past trail on this.  When guys like Chris Bianco can demand 2 hour waits and the respect of guys like Reinhart by using a Giusto blend, and I can make pizzas look like this with other flours, I'd like to avoid paying $13.50 with shipping for a high gluten from a vendor I have not been all that impressed with in the past.

The objective here has been to compare Guisto's high gluten flour at 13.5%, with a blend of Giusto's flours that will reach 13.5%, and see how they compare to each other.  Fortunately, both are locally available to me.

Using an All Purpose mixed flour from a local vendor-- a slightly crispy and wonderfully chewy crust.

(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/all-hold.jpg)

Using a 12.7% standard bread flour:

(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/pizza3.jpg)
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 16, 2004, 02:15:58 PM
I'm stoked.  Whole Foods called me, my order that I put in yesterday for Giusto's Unbleached Ultimate Performance high gluten is in.  I got a case of 6, 5lb bags, for $25 less 10% discount-- $3.75 a bag.

Pete-zza, I'm happpy you discovered that Chris Bianco uses Guisto's.  I had heard of them before, but did not realize they were local.  I now have access to an unbleached high gluten flour with no shipping costs, along with their other flours.  I'll keep you posted on how their flours turn out for me.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 16, 2004, 04:21:14 PM
Giotto,

Today I called a flour miller I found on the Internet to ask a basic technical question:  Is there a difference in performance between 1) a normally milled high-gluten flour and 2) a normally milled all-purpose flour to which the proper amount of vital wheat gluten has been added to achieve the same protein level as the high-gluten flour?

As it turned out, I unknowingly got the miller--or one of the millers--that actually mills the Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour for KA.  The technical person I spoke with (for about an hour) said that the Sir Lancelot flour is a very high-quality product because KA is very demanding in its specs.  He has a lot of respect for KA as a result.  When I asked him why KA wouldn't sell the Sir Lancelot flour at the retail level, he said the reason --as with any other high-gluten flour for that matter--is  because there is no real demand for it.  I was told that only bakers are interested in high-gluten flour and they aren't going to go to supermarkets to buy it in small bags at highly inflated prices.  When I asked him if there is a big difference between the flours sold to the foodservice industry and to home bakers, he said it was like comparing a Yugo with a Mercedes--although he did add that his company's high-gluten flour product was comparable to the Sir Lancelot flour.  The best stuff goes to the foodservice industry.  He couldn't ever imagine packing his company's flour into little bags and selling it in supermarkets.

When I mentioned the high shipping costs for the KA Sir Lancelot flour (this morning I checked the KA shipping and handling chart and the cost for shipping me a 5-pound bag is $9.13 and $9.72 to you, Giotto), he suggested that I go to a local pizzeria and buy some of their high-gluten flour (and their Grande cheese, as well, which he thinks is by far the best mozzarella cheese around).  I mentioned that my interest in using vital wheat gluten to increase the protein content of all-purpose flour was not strictly price but because I have found myself in situations, as when I was vacationing in Mexico recently and trying to make pizzas, where I could not find either bread flour or high-gluten flour in the supermarkets (and, in any event, the labeling information was likely highly suspect).  I thought being able to simply add some vital wheat gluten to all-purpose flour would allow me to approach the performance level of a normally milled high-gluten flour.   I could then bring a small bag of the vital wheat gluten with me to Mexico the next time (it stores well if frozen in an airtight container) and combine it with local Mexican all-purpose flours and not have to haul bags of Sir Lancelot flour to Mexico with me.

As for the answer to the question I posed (framed above), I was told that there will be some slight differences in the performance levels of the two flour examples I gave, but if the processing of the flours into doughs was handled properly (mixing, hydrating, kneading, controlling and monitoring dough temperatures--80 degrees F was the temperature he recommended--dividing into balls, retarding and fermenting), the differences would pretty much disappear and one would be hard pressed to tell the difference in the two finished baked products in a normal home setting.  

If what I was told is indeed correct, in your case, Giotto, you have access to the Guisto flour ingredients at your local Whole Foods to come fairly close to a normally milled high-gluten flour at far lower cost than buying from KA directly and paying their handling and shipping costs.  And you have your Grande cheese to boot :).

The technical person I spoke with generally bemoaned the state of the baking profession--with its overreliance on use of additives, enhancers, conditioners, preservatives, and a wide variety of other chemicals and practices in an effort to enhance profits, even at the expense of the quality of the end products.  He blamed the public for some of that since people are willing--or have been conditioned--to accept the mediocre products and not demand better.  However, he was extremely laudatory of the artisanal bakers that have sprung up in recent years because they are trying to revive time-honored ways of making bread products--with care, passion and an insistence on quality above all else.  He credits them for helping keep the milling industry viable.

I look forward to your flour/dough/pizza results from using the Giusto flour products.

Peter
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 16, 2004, 06:25:44 PM
Pete-zza:  

Interesting and thank you for sharing.  For those who cater to commercial markets, they often look down at what is worth their time when it comes to the consumer.  I had this same conversation with a cabinet maker the other day.  It all comes down to where they put their time.

I have also learned over the years that there is a significant difference between those who manufacture something vs. those who use it.  Considering that C. Bianco takes what goes into his pizza as seriously as anyone in the world, I think we are pretty safe with Guisto's in general.  

In the case of Giusto's ultimate performer high gluten flour, it is not available through the supermarkets per se; only in bulk.  And while it is pedaled through 50 lb bags, you can also get the same product in cases of 5 lb bags, as with many of their flours.  

So here's what came out of a mixture of Giusto's 11.7% bakers flour with their 70% vital gluten flour.  NO Sugar was added, yet it browned fine at 530 F after refrigeration of 12 hours.  

(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/giustopizza1.jpg)

The rise of the crust was good with a 1/3 tsp yeast, and the blury picture hides that it was airy.  But it was too stiff near the crust; I only had 1 tsp of olive oil when I made the dough, not allowing me to retain the moisture; so this probably contributed to the stiffness.

(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/giustoslice1.jpg)
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 16, 2004, 08:39:42 PM
Giotto,

The most important question is how did the pizza taste?  It looks great.  

Even without the addition of sugar, the high gluten content of your dough will promote a nice browning because of the so-called Maillard reactions.  I have found that as you move down the scale on protein content, from high-gluten flour on the high end of the scale to, say, 00 flour at the low end of the scale, the crust will get lighter and lighter, and will be almost white for the 00 flour (assuming in all instances that no additional sweetener is added).  You would have to leave the dough retard/ferment for quite a long time, maybe even several days for a high-gluten flour dough, before the natural sugars in the flour are all used up, at which time the ultimate crust will have a lighter color than normal, but still some because of the Maillard reactions.  

I suspect also that even with as little as 1/3 teaspoon yeast (I assume at that level it is instant yeast), you could easily go to as much as 3 days retardation before using up most of the natural sugars.  And, the crust would have a nice rise, especially at the rim.  My recollection is that you often use a pizza screen or other type of pan for your New York style pizzas.  Is that what you used for the pizza shown?  If so, you may want to try baking on a preheated pizza stone or tiles.  Since there is no added sugar in the dough, there will be no caramelization phenomenon and, as a result, the bottom of the crust will not blacken up on you as the pizza dough hits the stone or tiles.   The amount of olive oil seems fine.  You didn't indicate the weight of the dough ball or the amount of salt used.  Can you provide those figures?

Peter

Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 16, 2004, 11:05:31 PM
Pete-zza:

Actually, I do not subscribe to using anything but a thin screen when cooking pizza.  I get wonderful color and a slight crispness on the bottom every time.  I had to learn my oven though to get results comparable to some of the best commerical pizzas.  Regarding the taste, it was suprisingly good.    I say this because I normally use sugar; but just forgot this time.

I only run into issues with a stiffer crust when I try to mix with vital gluten.  In general, I like to incorporate a fat content in the neighborhood of what Reinhart suggests for New Haven and NY pizza, especially when working with a higher gluten flour.  The fat content helps trap moisture, and gives me a nicer chewier texture.  It's worked well for me in the past, especially when working with protein over 13%.

I only use active yeast.  Past notes of mine will show that I rarely use more than a 1/2 tsp of active yeast.  I only chose to use slightly less this time because you mentioned that you were shooting for 1/4 tsp, so I figured I'd try to lessen it a bit as well.

I used less than a tsp of salt and got it in the refrigerator within 15 minutes of making the dough to slow down the fermentation process.  I go 3 days all the time in the refrigerator by using this procedure, and have gone more without an issue.  I started with 2/3 cup of water and did add more as I needed it.  The dough weighed about 16 oz, with flour that weighed around 8 1/2 oz (non-digi scale, sorry).

Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 16, 2004, 11:46:18 PM
Giotto,

When you didn't use any sugar I thought there was a possibility that you were baking directly on a stone or tiles, which would lead to browning of the bottom of the crust without blackening.  As I understand it, when you use a screen you can get away with adding sugar without having the bottom of the crust get overly browned, and almost black, and yet use high oven temperatures.  

I assumed you were not using a lot of salt, which could restrain the volume growth of the dough.  Too little and you would get greater dough volume but the crust would be too bland.   Is there a particular reason why you choose to use the active dry yeast?  

Based on what I have been learning at this site, I would like to give a screen a try.  Can you tell me what size screen you used and what was the diameter of the pizza in relation to the screen?   Do you spray the screen with a spray or possibly a light coating of flour or cornmeal to prevent sticking?   I assume that the screen with a pizza on it is baked on the lowest rack of the oven, but wonder whether it can be put on top of a preheated pizza stone, which I tend to keep in the oven most of the time.  As a novice in this area, I would welcome any tips from you as well as anyone else at this forum on the best way to use screens.

Peter
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 17, 2004, 03:00:11 AM
Pete-zza:

I've used holed metal pans, stones, screens, etc., and even considered a 2 grand wood oven.  I prefer the open design of the thin screens because the entire pizza is cooked and you can control exactly how the top and bottom is cooked.  Holed metal pans, on the other hand, have too much of a distance between the holes, and their outside lip prevents proper cooking around the bottom of the outer crust.

Yes, you can place the screen on top of the stone; but I find stones get in the way, and they will decrease your control of when and how much you want the bottom or top to be cooked.

When I said I learned my oven, I meant that I learned to cook the pizza with two movements. I have a heating element at the bottom and top, and I use them to my advantage.
 
First, here's my 14" screen.  I never wash it with soap, never use corn meal (it would fall through), never pre-heat it, and it never burns.  When done, I wipe it off and put it away, no mess (you like this so far).  Before initial use, you'll want to place it over your serving pan and either spray it with olive oil and wipe it on well with your hands, or wipe olive oil on it.  Once it is treated, you can just wipe olive oil around the outside edge of it.

(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/screenn.jpg)

Place your 14" dough on the screen. Since there is no lip around the outside, you can stretch it to the outer end and it will cook all around.  If you go way over the edge, make sure your rack will not make it stick.  Develop an outside edge if you want to.  

(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/dough.jpg)


This puppy is light, and you don't need to worry about fitting it on a circle any more.  SO when you open the oven, you place it in (pizzaiolo style) and close it quickly.  Because you can work very quickly, your oven should not drop more than 10 degrees.  Set your temp over by 10 F over your cooking preference anyways.  It will likely catch up to the higher time.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on August 17, 2004, 03:08:19 PM
Giotto,

Thank you for all the info and tips on screens.  I also see from your post that you use a 14-inch screen.  Out of curiosity, when you said in a previous post that your pizza dough weighed 16 ounces and that the crust was thin in the middle and thicker at the edge, I plugged in all of the information into the dough weight calculation equation, using a thickness factor F equal to 0.105--half way between 0.10 for a thin pizza crust and 0.11 for a medium thick crust.  I calculated the radius R to be 6.96 inches, or a diameter of about 14 inches.  That's just about perfect for your 14-inch screen.  

I was searching some sources of screens this morning (including some sources mentioned at this site) and saw the type of screen you use as well as other screens that seem to be fancier, like the Quik-Disk screens at pizzatools.com that have holes, and either have or do not have the special PSTN coating.  I assume those are like what you tried and found wanting.  I noticed they are darker than the straight aluminum screens, which would make them better conductors, but it looks like your pizzas come out just fine without the benefit of greater heat conductivity.   The straight aluminum screens are also a great deal cheaper than the fancier versions.  I don't mind spending more if the benefits are significant enough to warrant the higher price.

Have you ever tried a larger screen, like a 16-inch screen? I measured the inside of my oven and it looks like I could fit a 16-inch screen and maybe even a 17-inch screen.  Screens seem to open up other possibilities also, like par-baking a pizza and then adding toppings or baking a pizza on a screen and then sliding it onto a preheated stone or tiles for a final browning.  

Peter



Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: giotto on August 17, 2004, 09:17:30 PM
Pete-zza:

Yes, I did try larger screens.  I have a 16" that weighs nothing just like mine, and it worked great; but its size is a problem for my oven.  I offered to look into shipping for Dave on his recent query; but sounds like he's going with a local grocer.

You are absolutely right about parboiling.  I never put heavy ingredients (e.g., fresh tomatoes) at the start and I find the flexibility to be key in so many respects.

I tried my hand at metal and other types, and looked at what some pros were using before concluding that it's the open "flat" design combined with the lightweight nature that is key.  

Although I place the screen directly on my oven rack, you can put it on stones, tiles, etc.  You don't need to use a peel; but I do, and I found metal peels to be better in sliding under the screens for removal.  The screens can move though.  So if you use a stone or something, you'll need to set it up to make sure you can hit the back of your oven when removing the pizza to save time.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on September 21, 2004, 08:42:24 PM
Today, I made a New York style pizza based on a recipe posted by Canadave under the canola oil thread.  The main reason I wanted to try out Canadave's recipe, apart from Canadave's favorable review of the finished product, was because his recipe differs quite a bit from the recipe for New York style dough I usually follow.  Canadave's recipe calls for a fair amount of yeast and a fair amount of sugar, whereas the recipe I normally use is almost on the other end of the spectrum and calls for only 1/8 teaspoon of yeast (instant dry) and no added sugar at all.  

For purposes of today's pizza, I cut Canadave's recipe in half, so that I would have a dough ball of around 22 ounces, enough for a 16-inch pizza if I understood Canadave's recipe correctly.  

I tried to be as faithful to Canadave's recipe as possible.  The only change I made was to substitute a mixture of canola oil and regular olive oil for the canola-soybean Crisco oil (which I did not have) called for in Canadave's recipe.  Everything went pretty much as the recipe specified.  I placed the dough after it had been fully kneaded and lightly oiled into a metal container with a tight fitting cover, and then into the refrigerator, where it sat for almost two days.  What surprised me was how much the dough rose while in the refrigerator.  When I checked the dough from time to time, I saw that it was rising, but by the end of the second day, the dough had completely filled the container (I estimate that it more than doubled in volume) and had pressed against the tight fitting cover enough to actually push it off.  In the recipe I use, the dough hardly rises as all when it is in the refrigerator.  It just sits there like a lifeless lump, giving you cause to wonder whether the dough will actually be usable.  

According to Canadave's recipe instructions, I brought the dough to room temperature but I didn't let is sit there for long.  As my pizza stone was being preheated, I worked the dough into a roughly 16-17 inch round, by pulling, stretching and tossing the dough.   The dough was quite extensible but more elastic than the New York style dough I usually make, necessitating a couple of 5-minute rest periods to get the gluten to relax.  The dough was also very soft and poofy--as mama mia likes to say--and clearly much greater in volume than the volume of dough I usually use to make one of my New York style pizzas (I use 22 ounces for 2 thin-crust pizzas).  I dressed the pizza dough on a 16-inch pizza screen and baked it for several minutes at 475 degrees F (as called for in Canadave's recipe) rather than the 500-550 degrees F I usually use.  I slipped the pizza onto the stone for a few minutes to improve browning of the bottom of the crust and finished baking it under the broiler for a couple of minutes.  

The finished pizza tasted great, although it was quite a bit different from the New York style pizza I make.  It was much softer and breadlike, especially in the rim (which was huge), rather than crispy and crackly.  A slice of the pizza had the limpness and chewiness characteristic of New York style pizzas.  I concluded that part of the difference between the two versions of the pizzas was attributable to the fact that the amount of dough I used to make Canadave's pizza today was about double what I normally use to make mine.  Another difference that surprised me was that I could actually taste the sugar in the crust.  It was not cloyingly annoying but I tend not to like sweetness in bread products.  That is something that can be easily changed in the next iteration of the recipe.  Next time, I will also use half the amount of dough that I used today so that I can make a more direct comparison with the results I usually achieve following my recipe.  I suspect that some of the differences I noted will be lessened.    

The photo below shows the finished pizza.  I used some 6-in-1 tomatoes, a little Penzeys pizza seasonings with added dried oregano and basil, crushed red peppers, fresh mozzarella cheese, some deli (County Line) sliced mozzarella cheese, provolone cheese, Italian sausage, pepperoni, a swig of good olive oil, freshly-grated Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese and fresh basil.  Maybe Canadave can tell me whether my pizza looks like the ones he makes.

Peter

Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on September 21, 2004, 08:49:37 PM
And here is what a slice of the New York style pizza looks like (following Canadave's recipe).

Peter
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Randy on September 22, 2004, 11:42:18 AM
Nice looking pizza.  Try a little honey in place of some of the sugar and consider using raw sugar.
I too like the Penzeys pizza mix.  I add a teaspoon of sugar to mine and a pinch of thyme.  

Odd about the sauce is the fact that when mixed the taste is a little harsh but put it on a pizza and the flavor is wonderful.  Did you notice that Peter?

Randy
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on September 22, 2004, 01:59:27 PM
Randy,

I have several different kinds of honey on hand, and also some turbinado sugar, which I believe is a raw form of sugar with some of the molasses retained in it.   I will have to give them a try sometime, although I would be inclined to use them somewhat sparingly since I seem to be overly sensitive to sweetness.  

I have found the 6-in-1 tomatoes to be the most naturally sweet tomatoes I have ever gotten from a can.  If I didn't know better, I would have guessed that sugar or some other sweetener was added.  With the added puree, the flavor is also rather intense, so I might soften the intensity a bit by adding other tomatoes to the sauce, even some fresh ones.  Or not use quite as much.  Like you, I have noticed that baking smoothes out the flavor of the sauce, as other flavors on the pizza, like fat, oil, herbs, meat and vegetable juices, etc., commingle with the tomatoes.  The tomatoes can be made into a sauce before hand, by cooking them and adding a variety of herbs and other things, including the Penzeys seasoning, but I have found that I like to use the 6-in-1s uncooked right out of the can.  They just seem fresher and brighter.

Peter
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on September 22, 2004, 09:05:03 PM
Randy,

I saw this response on PMQ to a question to "Big Dave" about cooking pizza sauces and thought you and possibly others might be interested.  I edited the response to correct typos.

"I don't recommend simmering pizza sauce. The deadly enemy of tomatoes is heat and time. When you bring the sauce to a simmer you are releasing evaporative steam. This steam is loaded with tomato volatiles. These compounds give sauce the real tomato flavor. The next problem with simmering is if you get the heat a few degrees too hot you scorch the sauce. Tomato sauce scorches so easily because of the high sugar content. Sugar + Heat = Carmelization. Not good. Since the sauce, puree, or concentrated crushed are evaporated at the factory and cooked again on the pizza I see no need to cook for the third time. If the tomatoes come from re-manufactured paste they will be cooked 4 times.....for what? The way to really get the seasonings (spices) to walk and talk is stir them in the hot water you denature the garlic in and let them absorb the water that has been sucked out of them when they were fresh. This rehydrates the spices and allows them to release their full flavors (volatiles). I also stir in a few ounces of EV Olive Oil at this time. The oil acts as an electrical conduit encapsulating the spices and transporting the flavor throughout the batch. Pour this green slurry into your base tomato product and mix throughly."

Peter




Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: RoadPizza on September 22, 2004, 09:14:02 PM
I've mentioned before that we don't heat our pizza sauce.  It's a matter of mixing all the ingredients and then using them right away.  (NOTE: the peeled tomatoes we use come straight from a can).

You can choose to mix your ingredients (save for the Parmesan cheese and garlic) and refrigerate the sauce (in a clean dry plastic container) a day ahead to allow the sauce to thicken a little.  Before use, just add the missing ingredients - adding them earlier will result in a more bitter tasting sauce.

The only time you'd really need to cook the tomatoes is if you were to use fresh tomatoes.  And even then, you'd probably only heat them for about 15 minutes.
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Randy on September 23, 2004, 07:34:44 AM
What I do is place two tablespoons of oil in the pot and heat the oil then add the Penzeys spice and stir until I smell the mixture(about 10-15 seconds) then I pour in a can of 6-in-1 and lightly heat on low for fifteen minutes, never letting it come to a boil.

Randy
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on September 23, 2004, 08:28:25 AM
Randy,

The technique you use with the Penzeys is a good way to intensify the flavor of the seasoning, a technique I have used many times before in making a Greek style chili (with about a dozen herbs and spices) but not for pizza sauces.  How much Penzeys do you find you need for one can of the 6-in-1 tomatoes?

Peter
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Randy on September 23, 2004, 10:33:48 AM
Two teaspoons Peter for one can of 6-in-1.  How much do you use?

Randy
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on September 24, 2004, 05:16:42 PM
Randy,

I usually scoop the tomatoes out of the can onto the pizza, sprinkle some Penzeys over it, and just lightly stir it into the sauce right on the pizza.  In most cases I don't need to use the full can of 6-in-1s at one time, but it occurs to me that your method allows you to keep a good supply of the finished sauce on hand to use throughout the week.  Have you tried freezing any unused sauce?

Peter
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Randy on September 24, 2004, 05:28:16 PM
Never tried to freeze the sauce but we do keep it in the cooler for a week or so with no problem.  I made two 14" American style pizzas this week and that will leave me enough for a 16" thin crust next week.  We like a lot of sauce on our pizzas and the more sauce the better a pizza taste when reheated I believe.

Randy
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: DKM on September 24, 2004, 05:35:28 PM
I have froze sauce in the past.  As long as it thaws in the fridge it comes out fine.  Thawing in the microwave can cause parts to "cook" more.

DKM
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: emo on October 03, 2004, 12:05:29 PM
Hey... not been able to post here for a while. Just moved into my new flat, and the last thing i've had time to do is make pizza dough, but now i'm settled in... this looks like the exact pizza i've been trying to replicate for months and months!

So i'm sure this has been discussed, but i can't find it on a search :-[

When's best to separate your dough?

I usually make enough for 2 pizzas. The way I do it is to make all the dough, pop it in the fridge for 24 hours, take it out, half it, put one back into the fridge and let the other come round to room temp...

However I have a feeling that halfing the dough at this point might be taking the air bubbles out for the 2nd piece of dough that is left in the fridge till the next night.

What's everyone's suggestions
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Randy on October 03, 2004, 12:16:13 PM
EMO I've tried dividing before and after the overnight rise in the cooler and say I prefer after the cooler but then I leave both halfs out to bake that evening.  When you knead and reshape the balls you are redistrubuting the yeast so by putting a ball back in the cooler it should offer no problem.  If your recipe is right, bubble formation should not be a problem.  Add to this, I have noticed the dough is not very godd after the third day.

Hope this helps a bit

Randy
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: canadave on October 03, 2004, 01:06:35 PM
Peter,

Sorry I missed your post in this thread about the pizza you made using my recipe (which, in turn, was loosely based on Peter Reinhart's recipe in American Pie).

To answer your questions: I've never actually achieved quite as puffy an edge as you did there, although if I tried, I think I could.  I usually try to distribute the dough manually around the edge as I'm shaping it, so as not to get quite that puffy.

As far as the side view of your slice: that looks pretty much like mine, and also looks just about like an authentic NYC pizza would look.  In fact it looks delicious :)

Dave
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on October 03, 2004, 01:41:06 PM
EMO,

If you are referring to the photos for the Canadave recipe, the recipe I used is posted under the canola thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/yabbse/index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=541.  I cut Canadave's recipe in half to make dough for a single 16-inch pizza.  If you are referring to the photos posted by Giotto for his pizzas, I don't believe he has specifically posted the recipes and technique used, although he regularly discusses these matters in a more general way.

There is also a recipe posted at the top of the Tom Lehmann NY style pizza thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/yabbse/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=576, for a NY style pizza that is similar in terms of result to the Canadave pizza, except that the Lehmann NY style dough does not use any added sugar and it uses less olive oil.  You may want to take a look at the photos posted there, as well as the technique discussed for preparing the dough and pizza.  A version of the Lehmann dough recipe using a smaller amount of yeast is also posted and discussed in the same thread, along with the photos for the pizza made from that version of the dough.  Some other photos of Lehmann pizzas and slices are posted at the puffy pizza thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/yabbse/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=567, in the context of the effects of high hydration (a lot of water in the dough) in creating a puffy dough and crust.

As for your question about dividing dough, like Randy and others, I have also done it both ways.  If I am in doubt about whether all of the pizzas will be prepared at about the same time, I divide first, put them in the refrigerator, and just use the dough balls as needed.  Otherwise, I can't say that I have noticed a real difference.  

When I am dividing the dough into several balls, I also weigh them and make minor adjustments if necessary to be sure the dough balls are all about the same weight.  

Peter
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: emo on October 03, 2004, 02:33:48 PM
Brilliant thanks guys.

I've just made a batch of Pierre's NY style dough (page 1) in preperation for tomorrow evening. So I'll post some pictures if it's a success!
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: emo on October 05, 2004, 01:01:45 PM
Okay! Well... made it last night... and i'm not sure if I did something wrong, but the dough didn't seem too stretchy, and tore a few holes.

Also... the oven wasn't cleaned from a couple of nights before, which I didn't realise till after the pizza was out... but it gave it a nice wood smoke flavour :P

If anyone can offer advice about what to do with the dough once I've taken it out the fridge and let it come up to room temp. In terms of preparing it for stretching.
Thanks
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on October 05, 2004, 04:21:04 PM
emo,

In your previous posting, you indicated that you had followed Pierre's recipe for the dough (on the first page of this thread).  I assume that the recipe you are referring to is the one with the ingredients specified in the metric system.  Is that correct, and, if so, did you convert from metric to the U.S. standard?  If I have the right recipe in mind, the recipe is a fundamentally sound NY style recipe (actually it bears a lot of similarity to the Lehmann NY style dough recipe), and contains explicit instructions for shaping.  

Once you confirm your recipe, we may be able to provide a diagnosis or offer suggestions.

Peter
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Randy on October 05, 2004, 04:40:55 PM
EMO not sure which recipe you used but here are some possiable causes.
1 the dough was too dry.
2. wrong kind of flour.
3. to short of knead time.
If I were to guess i would say your dough was dry.  It should have been pretty sticky.
Tell us the flour you used and did you mix by hand or somethign like a KitchenAid

EMO how about starting a new topic like EMO pizza.  This thread is way to large.  If Peter would do the same we will let this one slip into the archives unless someone objects.



Randy
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pierre on October 11, 2004, 05:12:47 PM
EMO... Hi, sorry for the delay. I somehow oversaw this thread with your posting. You wrote that the dough tore in a few places and was not very "stretchy".

If my calculations are correct (maybe Petezza could check  ; the hydration level in my recipe above is 72%, which is quite high. I incorporate 180 ml of water into the flour that I use and the flour is able to handle that without being overly "Sticky". Be sure to use a flour with a higher gluten content.

I incorporate the oil in last to allow the flour to absorb as much water as possible. Something Pete has correctly noted... it is a techinque that I without knowing is used also by Tom Lehmann. After mixing in the oil the resulting dough should be very silky and smooth. After an appropriate rising time the dough should be very pliable (depending on how strong the gluten is, you may need to give the dough a rest in between) and "Stretchy".

You stated that the dough tore on several places and was not very stretchy. The advise given by Randy and Peter are correct. Check back, let us know what flour you used and if your conversions were correct. I (we) will help you as best we can.

Maybe I should post up the recipe in US Imperial weights. I prefer the metric system because it is finer in grade and because water in Milliliters (volumetric)  is approximately the same in grams as well. Maybe you made a mistake in the water conversion?

Slight adjustments will always be necessary due to differences in flour....

Pierre
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: canadave on October 11, 2004, 05:17:08 PM
Pierre,

Perhaps even if you double-checked the quantities you listed in your recipe when you posted it here?  I tried your recipe some time ago, and I found the same thing as emo--it way too wet.  I couldn't work with it at all, it was just a mess :(  So maybe there's a mistake in the recipe?  A typo?

--Dave
Title: Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on October 11, 2004, 08:42:09 PM
Pierre,

I was reluctant to dig into your recipe for NY style dough until I was certain that we had the right recipe, and that emo was, in fact, using that recipe.  But, now that your recipe is being discussed, I have taken a shot at converting your flour and water quantities into weights to determine the hydration percentage.  Your recipe calls for 250 grams of flour, and with 1 pound weighing 453.6 grams, that comes to 0.55 pounds, or 8.82 ounces.  Your water quantity is 180 ml, and with 1 ml being approximately equal to 1 gram (as you correctly indicated), 180 grams weighs 0.3968 pounds, or 6.35 ounces.  Dividing 6.35 by 8.82, we get a water hydration percentage of 72 percent.  That is also the number you came up with.  

emo indicated that the dough he made following your recipe (whichever one that was) "didn't seem too stretchy, and tore a few holes".  If by "stretchy" emo meant that the dough was too elastic and not particularly extensible, then the only way that I can see how that could happen with a high-hydration dough (and certainly 72% is very high for a NY style dough) is if emo reballed the dough ball when it came out of the refrigerator.  I notice that the instructions for your recipe call for doing this, if I interpret your instructions correctly.  Reballing or reshaping a dough ball when it comes out of the refrigerator for some reason causes the gluten to become disoriented again and form a new matrix that is highly elastic and with very little extensibilty.  If you try to shape the dough under these circumstances, it will keep on springing back and be hard to shape, and can result in holes developing as attempts are made to pull or stretch the dough outwardly.  About the only way that one can overcome this problem is to let the dough rest for 15-25 minutes so that the gluten can relax again.  You can do this at room temperature or you can put the dough back into the refrigerator again and try to shape it later.  Even then, the dough won't be perfect.  But you should be able to shape the dough sufficiently well to make a pizza.  I don't know if this is what emo experienced, so until he tells us we won't really know whether it was emo or the recipe that was at fault.  Tom L. calls reballing or re-rounding a dough just before shaping (after it comes out of the refrigerator) a "bad habit" and says that doing so will result in snap-back every time.  I tested the concept on a batch of dough recently and concluded that Tom was right.  It took over 15 minutes to get the dough to lose its newfound elasticity and regain its extensibilty enough to work with the dough.

Peter
Title: Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on February 10, 2006, 12:13:24 PM
I am always looking for new NY style dough recipes to try out. Recently, as I was searching for information on the forum, I came across the NY style dough recipe that was posted some time ago in this thread, at Reply #24, by (inactive) member Pierre. I had reviewed the recipe once before, as noted in the last post, but had not actually attempted the recipe myself. So, recently, I decided to give the recipe a try.

I made a few changes to Pierre’s basic recipe. First, I scaled the recipe up to make a 16-inch pizza rather than the 12-inch size that Pierre’s recipe is intended to produce. Second, I used a lower hydration ratio. As previously noted, by my estimation, Pierre’s recipe calls for about 72% hydration. Third, I let the dough cold ferment for 3 days rather than one. Fourth, since Pierre’s recipe didn’t specify an oven temperature for preheating the stone, I used around 500-550 degrees F. The pizza was baked using my more or less standard screen/stone combination rather than using the stone only. Apart from the hydration level I used, I stayed within the baker’s percents I arrived at for Pierre’s recipe.

The only difficulty I had making the dough was in being able to get around 72% hydration. The best I could do using the protocol specified by Pierre’s recipe was around 63%. The addition of the olive oil and the sesame oil, at around 7.5% total, also meant a wetter dough than usual. During the three-day period the dough was in the refrigerator, it rose very little during the first two days but started to expand over the last day, by about a total of 50 percent. This is also quite common for a cold-fermented dough using very small amounts of yeast (0.30% IDY in this case), and particularly for one using water on the cool side.  I allowed the dough to warm up to about 62 degrees F before using it to make a pizza. I did not re-ball the dough as Pierre’s instructions called for because I was fearful that doing so would cause the dough to become too elastic to shape and stretch. As it turned out, the dough was very extensible (stretchy) but with care I was able to stretch it out to 16-inches and dress it on my 16-inch pizza screen. The pizza was a combination of pepperoni and mushroom.

The photos below show the finished product. As I expected, the finished crust was very soft with a tender crumb, which I attributed to the large amount of oil (around 7.5%) and sugar (around 4.8%). From my experience, this is quite characteristic of the NY styles that use large amounts of oil and sugar (although some might argue that it is closer to an American style). The pizza also baked faster than I expected, which had the added effect of producing a softer crust because the shorter bake time didn’t allow for the moisture in the dough to escape fast enough to produce a drier crust. The oil in the dough also works against this effect by trying to "seal" the water within the dough. The total bake time in my case was around 6 minutes, and because the bottom of the crust had quickly darkened because of the sugar in the dough, I couldn’t prolong the bake time any further. As a result, the top crust was also a little bit lighter than usual. In retrospect, I think the better approach would have been to use a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time. I was pleased, however, with the taste of the crust and pizza. I could detect a slight sweetness in the crust, which I usually prefer to avoid, but it was not bothersome. I could not specifically detect the flavor of the sesame oil although I could smell it as I was making and shaping the dough. But none of these factors detracted from the overall enjoyment of the pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: foodblogger on February 10, 2006, 02:54:25 PM
That looks delicious.  I'm hungry now.
Title: Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: RockyMarciano on February 11, 2006, 03:52:34 PM
According to your formula petezza, From what I remember its W= (Pi x R x R) x F.  Now I remember that in my old pizzeria a 16" pizza weighed somewhere around 20-22 oz.  Since it is new york style, it will be thin, but here in buffalo, I find the crust to be a little more thicker, so I will choose a thickness factor between 10-11. So from what I remember from algebra, 20-22, should be a good weight.  22oz would yield a thickness factor of 10.95, so should be good.  Now pete-zza, you seem to know what your doing mathwise, could you (or show me how) to get a lehman recipe that would yield a TF of 10.9 for a 16" pie??   I remember taking your recipe for an 18" and stretching it to a 16", it turned out great, I added a little more olive oil and 1/2tsp sugar and i used a cake yeast instead (about 3/4 a square).  But that dough was too heavy, about 26 oz.  now if i could get it to weigh 22 oz.  I tried this dough today:

16" pie:

3 1/2 c  KA bread (sifted)
1 1/8 c  filtered water 105F
1 1/8 t  ADY
3 t        Olive Oil
1/2 t     Sugar
1 1/4 t  Salt (iodized)
Title: Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: RockyMarciano on February 11, 2006, 04:06:06 PM
Also what do you guys think about SIFTING the flour??   I used KA bread flour cos thats what the store had.  I'd like to try hi-gluten and 00 flours as well, and ive gotten good results from AP too.  What about Knead time??  I usually hand knead,  for about 8 minutes.  Now rise time, Ive heard anywhere from 1-4days in the fridge and 1-5 hours outside to proof. ??  And yeasts, theres cake yeast, ady, and idy.  We used cake yeast in the pizzeria.  ??  Pans or screens?? I used both, a criscoed aluminum pizza pan works well, the pizza is more greasy, a screen gives a browner crust, but ive only seen pans used in most of the pizzeria's here, but screens work well too.  The key is the oven, gas cast iron blodgett deck ovens are the ultimate oven imo.  Anyway for sauce, this is what ive been doing, since I didnt get any san marzano's yet,  I take 8 oz of cento crushed tomatoes, add 1 1/2 tsp sugar, add tsp olive oil and stir, then put it on the pizza, and sprinkle a good amout of fine oregano, then sprinkle with salt and pepper and lightly sprinkle garlic powder (or stir in the fresh kind) and romano cheese.  Then I shred some whole milk low moisture mozzerella and top with margherita brand pepperoni and maybe some hot banana peppers and some canned mushrooms.  As far as slapping the dough out, im trying to master all the spin tricks and %$#& my boss does.
Title: Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on February 11, 2006, 06:59:31 PM
Rocky,

Your math is correct. When I use a thickness factor of 0.10 for a basic 16-inch Lehmann NY style dough, the dough weight is 20.11 ounces. When I use a thickness factor of 0.105 to get a slightly thicker crust, the dough weight is 21.11 ounces. Those numbers fit quite well with what you remember about the old pizzeria you worked for. If we use your thickness factor of 0.1095, the dough weight works out to 22.02 ounces. And this is what the formulation looks like when using the 0.1095 thickness factor.

Rocky's Personal 16-inch Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation
100%, Flour (high-gluten or bread), 13.28 oz. (376 g.)
63%, Water, 8.36 oz. (236.88 g.), a bit over 1 c.
1.75%, Salt, 0.23 oz. (6.58 g.), a bit less than 1 1/4 t.
0.25%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.03 oz. (0.94 g.), a bit less than 1/3 t.
1%, Oil, 0.13 oz. (3.76 g.), between 3/4 and 7/8 t.
Total Dough weight = 22.02 oz. (624 g.)
Thickness factor = 0.1095

I notice that you have mentioned using cake yeast at work and that the dough you are currently making uses ADY. I note also that you like using a bit of sugar and more yeast and oil than the basic Lehmann formulation. It is very simple to tweak the formulation given above to use just about anything you want. If you intend to use bread flour, we might even lower the hydration by a percent or two to reflect the lower protein content of the bread flour. It's easy enough to do so if you tell me what you want like the "final" Lehmann dough to look like, I should be able to give you the corresponding formulation. I could also use that formulation to tell you how to work out the numbers yourself if you want to do that next time on your own.

Peter
Title: Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on February 11, 2006, 08:27:44 PM
Rocky,

You have raised several good points in your last post. Maybe I can address them as follows:

Sifting the flour: As a practical matter, it isn't necessary to sift flour since it has already been sifted at the miller's facilities. However, if the flour has become compacted for some reason, I don't see any harm in sifting it so long as you use a scale to weigh the flour when you are done sifting. Otherwise, the weight of the flour is likely to be too low because of all the air that is incorporated into the flour by the sifting process. I am personally intrigued about the possibility of sifting flour just to see if the flour will hydrate better and absorb more water by starting out with sifted flour.

Knead time: The time that it takes to properly knead a dough depends mainly on the amount of dough you plan to make, and the mechanism chosen to knead the dough, whether it is by a machine (stand mixer, food processor, or bread machine) or by hand. King Arthur says that you shouldn't knead high-gluten flour doughs by hand. However, unless you plan to make an awful lot of dough at one time, I have found that it is possible to hand knead a high-gluten flour dough by hand, and especially if you also use an autolyse or other rest period. In fact, I did this with Canadave's NY dough over the holidays, and reported on the results at Reply #39 at the Canadave NY thread.

Rise time in the fridge:The length of time that a dough can be cold fermented in the refrigerator is essentially programmed into the dough by how you made the dough. There are many factors that govern the "shelf life" of a dough, but the two most important factors in my experience are the amount of yeast used and the finished dough temperature, that is, the temperature of the dough as it comes off the hook (or out of your hands) and goes into the refrigerator. If too much yeast is used, the dough will ferment more and faster and, unless other measures are taken, such as using cold water and/or adding a bit of sugar to the dough to continue to feed the yeast over the desired number of days, the shelf life of the dough can be foreshortened. Dough temperature is a function of the temperature of the flour, room temperature, heat from friction (of the machine used), and water temperature. The most controllable of these factors is the water temperature. If the water is too hot, that will have the same effect as using a lot of yeast and will accelerate the fermentation process and potentially foreshorten the shelf life of the dough. Using both a lot of yeast and warm water will turbocharge the dough the most and fastest and, all else being equal, will have the shortest shelf life.

Dough warm-up time: The time that it takes a cold fermented dough to warm up before shaping it into a skin is also a function of dough temperature. To avoid bubbling problems in the dough as it bakes, it is generally advisable that the dough reach above 55 degrees F before using. If a dough docker is to be used, and the dough is docked like crazy, you should be able to get away with a lower temperature. However, a dough docker in not a surefire cure. It might only reduce the bubbling. I usually take the dough temperature and use around 60-65 degrees F as a benchmark. The length of time that it will take a dough to reach that temperature is largely a function of room temperature. A dough will warm up in summer considerably faster than in winter. Once the dough gets to the proper temperature, it is good thereafter for a few more hours, so unless it is July or August in Arizona you shouldn't panic about whether the dough will expire on you. Some members, like Les, like to let their doughs warm up for 8 hours or even longer. For me, about 1 1/2-2 hours is about right, on average.

Cake yeast vs. ADY vs. IDY: Each of the three forms of yeast has it fans who will proclaim its superiority over the other forms. And with good reason. Each form has certain attributes that the other do not possess. However, according to tests performed by Tom Lehmann and others at the American Institute of Baking (AIB), the performance of the three forms of yeast is the same. They couldn't tell the difference from the finished products. The point to keep in mind is that when substituting one form for another, the amounts have to be adjusted. For example, when substituting ADY for cake yeast, one should use about half the amount of cake yeast by weight. When substituting IDY for cake yeast, one should use about one third the amount of cake yeast, again by weight. BTW, the reason that many pizza operators use the cake yeast is because in the quantities required by such operators the cake yeast is the cheapest of the three forms. Also, the cake yeast can be crumbled and added directly to the flour rather than proofing it in water, as is required when using ADY.

Screen vs. pan: The basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe is intended to be used with deck ovens or on screens in a conveyor oven. When the pizzas are to be baked in a deck oven, Tom Lehmann advocates using no sugar in the dough because it causes the bottom crust to brown too quickly--usually before the top of the pizza has finished baking. I tried using the Lehmann dough only once on a pan, when I was looking for an entry level Lehmann pizza using all-purpose flour. When the bottom crust didn't brown up sufficiently, I didn't pursue the matter further, even though I concluded that I could have used a lot of oil in the pan to "fry" the bottom crust. I could have also removed the pizza from the pan after the dough set to allow it to finish baking the rest of the time on a shelf of the oven.

Peter
Title: Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: RockyMarciano on February 12, 2006, 12:10:09 AM

Rocky's Personal 16-inch Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation
 Flour (high-gluten or bread), 3 1/3 c
Water,   1 c.
Salt, 1 1/4 t.
ADY  1/2 t
olive oil 1 t.
sugar 1/4 t
Total Dough weight = 22.02 oz. (624 g.)

Im gonna try that petezaa, i think i will tweak it to like this though.  but at least im gettign the thickness factor/weight I want.  Thanks for the posts man!!!!!  I will report back tommorow.  I wish i had a digital camera so i could post some pics.  So far the dough is proofing nicely in the fridge, ill take it out tommorow.
Title: Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on February 12, 2006, 09:22:59 AM
Rocky,

Good luck with your pizza.

In case you are still interested in learning how to use the baker's percents to calculate ingredient quantities, you might take a look at Reply #8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1599.0.html. I'd forgotten that post but it is right on point as a mini-tutorial for learning how to use baker's percents when you have a known thickness factor and pizza size to work with.

Peter
Title: Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: RockyMarciano on February 12, 2006, 11:13:08 AM
Thanks dude, hopefully I can get a scale, and then the madness will begin!! 
Title: Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: RockyMarciano on February 12, 2006, 11:34:43 AM
Pete-zza,  what formula should I use If I want to make a party pizza? (Sheet pizza)  Could I use  W= (B x H) x F  ????
Title: Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on February 12, 2006, 12:05:47 PM
Rocky,

That's right. It's surface area, so for a rectangle or square, it is as you stated.

Peter
Title: Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: RockyMarciano on February 12, 2006, 05:43:46 PM
Oh man, just got done eating my pizza, it was friggen awesome!  The dough turned out just how i wanted.  I topped it with margherita pepperoni, hot banana peppers, olives, and canned mushrooms. 
Title: Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: Pete-zza on February 12, 2006, 05:49:46 PM
Rocky,

How did it compare with what you get at work?

Peter
Title: Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
Post by: RockyMarciano on February 12, 2006, 05:53:51 PM
It was somewhat spicier, the dough was nice and chewy though and browned nicely.  The stuff at work is greasy though, I cant figure it out, i mean it is covered in grease, the top of the pizza and the bottom of the crust!! everywhere is like that, i can't figure it out, i mean i used a screen instead of a pan, so maybe thats it (along with pepperoni and whole milk mozz)  My pizza tasted like an elite NYC style pizza, except with more of a WNY style crust.  Im trying to shoot for a WNY street style pie.  Anyways i was happy with it, it was damn good.  Though my dough was chewier,  I want it to be more "wet" if that makes any sense.  I mean I could cheat and use all of the ingredients from work, but what fun would that be i eat their all the time, i know everything that goes in it, reverse engineering it isn't a problem.  I want to reverse engineer the other pizzeria's in the city.  I mean blasdell pizza has the best crust, carbone's has the best sauce, and lovejoy's has the best cheese.  Now if I could combine them all and make a super pizza, well then i would have something.  I guess im just trying to put wny style pizza on the map here.