• #141 by Pete-zza on 23 Sep 2004
  • Randy,

    The technique you use with the Penzeys is a good way to intensify the flavor of the seasoning, a technique I have used many times before in making a Greek style chili (with about a dozen herbs and spices) but not for pizza sauces.  How much Penzeys do you find you need for one can of the 6-in-1 tomatoes?

  • #142 by Randy on 23 Sep 2004
  • Two teaspoons Peter for one can of 6-in-1.  How much do you use?

  • #143 by Pete-zza on 24 Sep 2004
  • Randy,

    I usually scoop the tomatoes out of the can onto the pizza, sprinkle some Penzeys over it, and just lightly stir it into the sauce right on the pizza.  In most cases I don't need to use the full can of 6-in-1s at one time, but it occurs to me that your method allows you to keep a good supply of the finished sauce on hand to use throughout the week.  Have you tried freezing any unused sauce?

  • #144 by Randy on 24 Sep 2004
  • Never tried to freeze the sauce but we do keep it in the cooler for a week or so with no problem.  I made two 14" American style pizzas this week and that will leave me enough for a 16" thin crust next week.  We like a lot of sauce on our pizzas and the more sauce the better a pizza taste when reheated I believe.

  • #145 by DKM on 24 Sep 2004
  • I have froze sauce in the past.  As long as it thaws in the fridge it comes out fine.  Thawing in the microwave can cause parts to "cook" more.

  • #146 by emo on 03 Oct 2004
  • Hey... not been able to post here for a while. Just moved into my new flat, and the last thing i've had time to do is make pizza dough, but now i'm settled in... this looks like the exact pizza i've been trying to replicate for months and months!

    So i'm sure this has been discussed, but i can't find it on a search :-[

    When's best to separate your dough?

    I usually make enough for 2 pizzas. The way I do it is to make all the dough, pop it in the fridge for 24 hours, take it out, half it, put one back into the fridge and let the other come round to room temp...

    However I have a feeling that halfing the dough at this point might be taking the air bubbles out for the 2nd piece of dough that is left in the fridge till the next night.

    What's everyone's suggestions
  • #147 by Randy on 03 Oct 2004
  • EMO I've tried dividing before and after the overnight rise in the cooler and say I prefer after the cooler but then I leave both halfs out to bake that evening.  When you knead and reshape the balls you are redistrubuting the yeast so by putting a ball back in the cooler it should offer no problem.  If your recipe is right, bubble formation should not be a problem.  Add to this, I have noticed the dough is not very godd after the third day.

    Hope this helps a bit

  • #148 by canadave on 03 Oct 2004
  • Peter,

    Sorry I missed your post in this thread about the pizza you made using my recipe (which, in turn, was loosely based on Peter Reinhart's recipe in American Pie).

    To answer your questions: I've never actually achieved quite as puffy an edge as you did there, although if I tried, I think I could.  I usually try to distribute the dough manually around the edge as I'm shaping it, so as not to get quite that puffy.

    As far as the side view of your slice: that looks pretty much like mine, and also looks just about like an authentic NYC pizza would look.  In fact it looks delicious :)

  • #149 by Pete-zza on 03 Oct 2004
  • EMO,

    If you are referring to the photos for the Canadave recipe, the recipe I used is posted under the canola thread, at;action=display;threadid=541.  I cut Canadave's recipe in half to make dough for a single 16-inch pizza.  If you are referring to the photos posted by Giotto for his pizzas, I don't believe he has specifically posted the recipes and technique used, although he regularly discusses these matters in a more general way.

    There is also a recipe posted at the top of the Tom Lehmann NY style pizza thread, at;action=display;threadid=576, for a NY style pizza that is similar in terms of result to the Canadave pizza, except that the Lehmann NY style dough does not use any added sugar and it uses less olive oil.  You may want to take a look at the photos posted there, as well as the technique discussed for preparing the dough and pizza.  A version of the Lehmann dough recipe using a smaller amount of yeast is also posted and discussed in the same thread, along with the photos for the pizza made from that version of the dough.  Some other photos of Lehmann pizzas and slices are posted at the puffy pizza thread, at;action=display;threadid=567, in the context of the effects of high hydration (a lot of water in the dough) in creating a puffy dough and crust.

    As for your question about dividing dough, like Randy and others, I have also done it both ways.  If I am in doubt about whether all of the pizzas will be prepared at about the same time, I divide first, put them in the refrigerator, and just use the dough balls as needed.  Otherwise, I can't say that I have noticed a real difference.  

    When I am dividing the dough into several balls, I also weigh them and make minor adjustments if necessary to be sure the dough balls are all about the same weight.  

  • #150 by emo on 03 Oct 2004
  • Brilliant thanks guys.

    I've just made a batch of Pierre's NY style dough (page 1) in preperation for tomorrow evening. So I'll post some pictures if it's a success!
  • #151 by emo on 05 Oct 2004
  • Okay! Well... made it last night... and i'm not sure if I did something wrong, but the dough didn't seem too stretchy, and tore a few holes.

    Also... the oven wasn't cleaned from a couple of nights before, which I didn't realise till after the pizza was out... but it gave it a nice wood smoke flavour :P

    If anyone can offer advice about what to do with the dough once I've taken it out the fridge and let it come up to room temp. In terms of preparing it for stretching.
  • #152 by Pete-zza on 05 Oct 2004
  • emo,

    In your previous posting, you indicated that you had followed Pierre's recipe for the dough (on the first page of this thread).  I assume that the recipe you are referring to is the one with the ingredients specified in the metric system.  Is that correct, and, if so, did you convert from metric to the U.S. standard?  If I have the right recipe in mind, the recipe is a fundamentally sound NY style recipe (actually it bears a lot of similarity to the Lehmann NY style dough recipe), and contains explicit instructions for shaping.  

    Once you confirm your recipe, we may be able to provide a diagnosis or offer suggestions.

  • #153 by Randy on 05 Oct 2004
  • EMO not sure which recipe you used but here are some possiable causes.
    1 the dough was too dry.
    2. wrong kind of flour.
    3. to short of knead time.
    If I were to guess i would say your dough was dry.  It should have been pretty sticky.
    Tell us the flour you used and did you mix by hand or somethign like a KitchenAid

    EMO how about starting a new topic like EMO pizza.  This thread is way to large.  If Peter would do the same we will let this one slip into the archives unless someone objects.

  • #154 by Pierre on 11 Oct 2004
  • EMO... Hi, sorry for the delay. I somehow oversaw this thread with your posting. You wrote that the dough tore in a few places and was not very "stretchy".

    If my calculations are correct (maybe Petezza could check  ; the hydration level in my recipe above is 72%, which is quite high. I incorporate 180 ml of water into the flour that I use and the flour is able to handle that without being overly "Sticky". Be sure to use a flour with a higher gluten content.

    I incorporate the oil in last to allow the flour to absorb as much water as possible. Something Pete has correctly noted... it is a techinque that I without knowing is used also by Tom Lehmann. After mixing in the oil the resulting dough should be very silky and smooth. After an appropriate rising time the dough should be very pliable (depending on how strong the gluten is, you may need to give the dough a rest in between) and "Stretchy".

    You stated that the dough tore on several places and was not very stretchy. The advise given by Randy and Peter are correct. Check back, let us know what flour you used and if your conversions were correct. I (we) will help you as best we can.

    Maybe I should post up the recipe in US Imperial weights. I prefer the metric system because it is finer in grade and because water in Milliliters (volumetric)  is approximately the same in grams as well. Maybe you made a mistake in the water conversion?

    Slight adjustments will always be necessary due to differences in flour....

  • #155 by canadave on 11 Oct 2004
  • Pierre,

    Perhaps even if you double-checked the quantities you listed in your recipe when you posted it here?  I tried your recipe some time ago, and I found the same thing as emo--it way too wet.  I couldn't work with it at all, it was just a mess :(  So maybe there's a mistake in the recipe?  A typo?

  • #156 by Pete-zza on 11 Oct 2004
  • Pierre,

    I was reluctant to dig into your recipe for NY style dough until I was certain that we had the right recipe, and that emo was, in fact, using that recipe.  But, now that your recipe is being discussed, I have taken a shot at converting your flour and water quantities into weights to determine the hydration percentage.  Your recipe calls for 250 grams of flour, and with 1 pound weighing 453.6 grams, that comes to 0.55 pounds, or 8.82 ounces.  Your water quantity is 180 ml, and with 1 ml being approximately equal to 1 gram (as you correctly indicated), 180 grams weighs 0.3968 pounds, or 6.35 ounces.  Dividing 6.35 by 8.82, we get a water hydration percentage of 72 percent.  That is also the number you came up with.  

    emo indicated that the dough he made following your recipe (whichever one that was) "didn't seem too stretchy, and tore a few holes".  If by "stretchy" emo meant that the dough was too elastic and not particularly extensible, then the only way that I can see how that could happen with a high-hydration dough (and certainly 72% is very high for a NY style dough) is if emo reballed the dough ball when it came out of the refrigerator.  I notice that the instructions for your recipe call for doing this, if I interpret your instructions correctly.  Reballing or reshaping a dough ball when it comes out of the refrigerator for some reason causes the gluten to become disoriented again and form a new matrix that is highly elastic and with very little extensibilty.  If you try to shape the dough under these circumstances, it will keep on springing back and be hard to shape, and can result in holes developing as attempts are made to pull or stretch the dough outwardly.  About the only way that one can overcome this problem is to let the dough rest for 15-25 minutes so that the gluten can relax again.  You can do this at room temperature or you can put the dough back into the refrigerator again and try to shape it later.  Even then, the dough won't be perfect.  But you should be able to shape the dough sufficiently well to make a pizza.  I don't know if this is what emo experienced, so until he tells us we won't really know whether it was emo or the recipe that was at fault.  Tom L. calls reballing or re-rounding a dough just before shaping (after it comes out of the refrigerator) a "bad habit" and says that doing so will result in snap-back every time.  I tested the concept on a batch of dough recently and concluded that Tom was right.  It took over 15 minutes to get the dough to lose its newfound elasticity and regain its extensibilty enough to work with the dough.

  • #157 by Pete-zza on 10 Feb 2006
  • I am always looking for new NY style dough recipes to try out. Recently, as I was searching for information on the forum, I came across the NY style dough recipe that was posted some time ago in this thread, at Reply #24, by (inactive) member Pierre. I had reviewed the recipe once before, as noted in the last post, but had not actually attempted the recipe myself. So, recently, I decided to give the recipe a try.

    I made a few changes to Pierre’s basic recipe. First, I scaled the recipe up to make a 16-inch pizza rather than the 12-inch size that Pierre’s recipe is intended to produce. Second, I used a lower hydration ratio. As previously noted, by my estimation, Pierre’s recipe calls for about 72% hydration. Third, I let the dough cold ferment for 3 days rather than one. Fourth, since Pierre’s recipe didn’t specify an oven temperature for preheating the stone, I used around 500-550 degrees F. The pizza was baked using my more or less standard screen/stone combination rather than using the stone only. Apart from the hydration level I used, I stayed within the baker’s percents I arrived at for Pierre’s recipe.

    The only difficulty I had making the dough was in being able to get around 72% hydration. The best I could do using the protocol specified by Pierre’s recipe was around 63%. The addition of the olive oil and the sesame oil, at around 7.5% total, also meant a wetter dough than usual. During the three-day period the dough was in the refrigerator, it rose very little during the first two days but started to expand over the last day, by about a total of 50 percent. This is also quite common for a cold-fermented dough using very small amounts of yeast (0.30% IDY in this case), and particularly for one using water on the cool side.  I allowed the dough to warm up to about 62 degrees F before using it to make a pizza. I did not re-ball the dough as Pierre’s instructions called for because I was fearful that doing so would cause the dough to become too elastic to shape and stretch. As it turned out, the dough was very extensible (stretchy) but with care I was able to stretch it out to 16-inches and dress it on my 16-inch pizza screen. The pizza was a combination of pepperoni and mushroom.

    The photos below show the finished product. As I expected, the finished crust was very soft with a tender crumb, which I attributed to the large amount of oil (around 7.5%) and sugar (around 4.8%). From my experience, this is quite characteristic of the NY styles that use large amounts of oil and sugar (although some might argue that it is closer to an American style). The pizza also baked faster than I expected, which had the added effect of producing a softer crust because the shorter bake time didn’t allow for the moisture in the dough to escape fast enough to produce a drier crust. The oil in the dough also works against this effect by trying to "seal" the water within the dough. The total bake time in my case was around 6 minutes, and because the bottom of the crust had quickly darkened because of the sugar in the dough, I couldn’t prolong the bake time any further. As a result, the top crust was also a little bit lighter than usual. In retrospect, I think the better approach would have been to use a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time. I was pleased, however, with the taste of the crust and pizza. I could detect a slight sweetness in the crust, which I usually prefer to avoid, but it was not bothersome. I could not specifically detect the flavor of the sesame oil although I could smell it as I was making and shaping the dough. But none of these factors detracted from the overall enjoyment of the pizza.

  • #158 by foodblogger on 10 Feb 2006
  • That looks delicious.  I'm hungry now.
  • #159 by RockyMarciano on 11 Feb 2006
  • According to your formula petezza, From what I remember its W= (Pi x R x R) x F.  Now I remember that in my old pizzeria a 16" pizza weighed somewhere around 20-22 oz.  Since it is new york style, it will be thin, but here in buffalo, I find the crust to be a little more thicker, so I will choose a thickness factor between 10-11. So from what I remember from algebra, 20-22, should be a good weight.  22oz would yield a thickness factor of 10.95, so should be good.  Now pete-zza, you seem to know what your doing mathwise, could you (or show me how) to get a lehman recipe that would yield a TF of 10.9 for a 16" pie??   I remember taking your recipe for an 18" and stretching it to a 16", it turned out great, I added a little more olive oil and 1/2tsp sugar and i used a cake yeast instead (about 3/4 a square).  But that dough was too heavy, about 26 oz.  now if i could get it to weigh 22 oz.  I tried this dough today:

    16" pie:

    3 1/2 c  KA bread (sifted)
    1 1/8 c  filtered water 105F
    1 1/8 t  ADY
    3 t        Olive Oil
    1/2 t     Sugar
    1 1/4 t  Salt (iodized)
  • #160 by RockyMarciano on 11 Feb 2006
  • Also what do you guys think about SIFTING the flour??   I used KA bread flour cos thats what the store had.  I'd like to try hi-gluten and 00 flours as well, and ive gotten good results from AP too.  What about Knead time??  I usually hand knead,  for about 8 minutes.  Now rise time, Ive heard anywhere from 1-4days in the fridge and 1-5 hours outside to proof. ??  And yeasts, theres cake yeast, ady, and idy.  We used cake yeast in the pizzeria.  ??  Pans or screens?? I used both, a criscoed aluminum pizza pan works well, the pizza is more greasy, a screen gives a browner crust, but ive only seen pans used in most of the pizzeria's here, but screens work well too.  The key is the oven, gas cast iron blodgett deck ovens are the ultimate oven imo.  Anyway for sauce, this is what ive been doing, since I didnt get any san marzano's yet,  I take 8 oz of cento crushed tomatoes, add 1 1/2 tsp sugar, add tsp olive oil and stir, then put it on the pizza, and sprinkle a good amout of fine oregano, then sprinkle with salt and pepper and lightly sprinkle garlic powder (or stir in the fresh kind) and romano cheese.  Then I shred some whole milk low moisture mozzerella and top with margherita brand pepperoni and maybe some hot banana peppers and some canned mushrooms.  As far as slapping the dough out, im trying to master all the spin tricks and %$#& my boss does.