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Author Topic: help with the cook time on my pies!  (Read 693 times)

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Offline Nwin

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help with the cook time on my pies!
« on: January 08, 2018, 06:18:07 PM »
So today I tried an experiment comparing two flours: King Arthur Bread Flour and Italian 00 Caputo flour.  The recipe I used was the Pizza 123 recipe found on these forums.  Both were cooked on a pizza steel measured at 575 degrees.  The King arthur pie was cooked for 4:45 minutes, then the broiler was turned on high until 6:20, then turned it off, and then I pulled the pizza at 6:45.  This resulted in a beautiful browning on the bottom and the top, but it was cooked too much, and the bottom was almost crispy...just a touch too done.

So for the 00 flour pizza, I heated the stone to 575 again, then launched the pie and cooked it for 4:20, then put the broiler on high, turned it off at 6:15, and pulled the pizza at 6:30.  This pizza was cooked much better, but as seen...the top isn't very brown.  The bottom again, was browned beautifully (sorry for no pics of the bottom).

Any suggestions on how to get the best of both worlds: a brown top and a brown bottom?  My steel is currently on the second highest rack of my gas oven, and the broiler is on the top, with the normal heating element coming from the bottom.

Also, I used a brick of Dragone low moisture whole milk mozzarella that was grated, some Carmelina san marzanos put through a food mill, and some basil to top.

Finally, one last question on the tomatoes...I had made the sauce about two months ago using some salt, basil, and EVOO.  It tasted great, so I froze it, and reused it twice.  The first time I reused it, it tasted/looked fine.  However, this time it appeared much more watery and did not nearly taste as good.  Any ideas why?  I tossed it out and will be making a fresh batch for the next round of pizza.

edit: the first picture is the King Arthur pizza (1st pie), and the second one is the caputo.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 06:22:15 PM by Nwin »
Nick

Offline Minolta Rokkor

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Re: help with the cook time on my pies!
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2018, 07:04:30 PM »
So today I tried an experiment comparing two flours: King Arthur Bread Flour and Italian 00 Caputo flour.  The recipe I used was the Pizza 123 recipe found on these forums.  Both were cooked on a pizza steel measured at 575 degrees.  The King arthur pie was cooked for 4:45 minutes, then the broiler was turned on high until 6:20, then turned it off, and then I pulled the pizza at 6:45.  This resulted in a beautiful browning on the bottom and the top, but it was cooked too much, and the bottom was almost crispy...just a touch too done.

So for the 00 flour pizza, I heated the stone to 575 again, then launched the pie and cooked it for 4:20, then put the broiler on high, turned it off at 6:15, and pulled the pizza at 6:30.  This pizza was cooked much better, but as seen...the top isn't very brown.  The bottom again, was browned beautifully (sorry for no pics of the bottom).

Any suggestions on how to get the best of both worlds: a brown top and a brown bottom?  My steel is currently on the second highest rack of my gas oven, and the broiler is on the top, with the normal heating element coming from the bottom.

Also, I used a brick of Dragone low moisture whole milk mozzarella that was grated, some Carmelina san marzanos put through a food mill, and some basil to top.

Finally, one last question on the tomatoes...I had made the sauce about two months ago using some salt, basil, and EVOO.  It tasted great, so I froze it, and reused it twice.  The first time I reused it, it tasted/looked fine.  However, this time it appeared much more watery and did not nearly taste as good.  Any ideas why?  I tossed it out and will be making a fresh batch for the next round of pizza.

edit: the first picture is the King Arthur pizza (1st pie), and the second one is the caputo.
IMO baking on steel only complicates things.

Too answer your question, engage/turn on the broiler 1 min or 30 secs earlier so your top is done faster and bottom is cooked less. 00

Offline quietdesperation

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Re: help with the cook time on my pies!
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2018, 07:32:26 PM »
great looking pies!

Many of us cook on steel and love it. my recommendation is to use bread flour in your home oven as 00 flour is intended for higher temps (800-900+). There's no magic bullet other than experimentation to find the sweet spot for your microclimate, process, formulation, steel and oven. I started around 570 on steel but found a longer bake (7-8 mins) at 530 resulted in a much better pie. I moved the steel to the middle of the oven and never use the broiler. You can see the evolution of my bakes in my "tale of woe" thread.

Something that has worked well for many of us is the addition of ldmp (diastatic malt powder) to improve browning. It can be ordered from nybakers or amazon.

best,
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 07:35:06 PM by quietdesperation »
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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: help with the cook time on my pies!
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2018, 08:43:40 PM »
What QD said..the 00 is  a mismatch for home oven temps. You can add the LDMP to try to compensate but the bread flour is a better choice in this use. Some prefer stone, as does MR apparently, but steel is definitely a fine choice. And will last fiorever.

Offline Nwin

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Re: help with the cook time on my pies!
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2018, 07:40:44 AM »
Thanks for all the advice so far.

The 00 trial was an experimentation because one of my friends did a similar test and found the 00 was easier to work with.  I'm not sure of the recipe he used, but I did find the 00 flour a bit easier to work with and it seemed to keep it's form a bit better (whereas the KABF is a bit more elastic and will shrink after the initial stretch, the 00 stayed within the same diameter).

I'll try going back to the KABF and redoing my oven temps.  I think I'm finally blessed with a decent oven after many rentals where that wasn't the case.  This one will go up to 550 and maintain it, so I've just been blasting it at 550 for an hour and then turning the broiler on a minute before the launch to get the steel to creep a bit higher (575 in this case, though I have hit 620 once).  I'll try just getting the steel to 525 and launching the pizza and see what results I get that way, with a slightly longer cook time.  I think my problem is I'm thinking Neapolitan (hot temps, fast cook times) when cooking NY style, and that's not going to work out too well.

I do have a bunch of diastatic malt powder that I use for making bagels-I'll be sure to check out your thread, quietdesperation-is there a certain percentage I'm looking at for the malt powder?
Nick

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Offline quietdesperation

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Re: help with the cook time on my pies!
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2018, 02:31:24 PM »
I like  2 per cent, the formulation is in my thread. You should also look at txcraig1ís thread, he bakes on steel, I copied his formulation.  I beleive  lately craig is using less than 2 per cent.
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Offline Nwin

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Re: help with the cook time on my pies!
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2018, 10:17:38 AM »
I like  2 per cent, the formulation is in my thread. You should also look at txcraig1ís thread, he bakes on steel, I copied his formulation.  I beleive  lately craig is using less than 2 per cent.

Sounds good-I took a look at his thread, but then realized I have Hoosier's Diastatic Malt Powder, and not the LDMP you were talking about...is there a conversion I can use, or should I source some LDMP?  I found this thread:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45802.20

but it went a but over my head with some of the conversions, etc.
Nick

Offline norcoscia

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Re: help with the cook time on my pies!
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2018, 12:01:00 PM »
Nwin, the malt you have is fine, its Litner rating is 60 so it is 3 times stronger than the malt I use (which is 20). So you just need to add less and you will get pretty much the same results. I'm not sure what Ryan is using when he adds 2%. I have gone as high as 2% but I usually keep it at 1% if using with a flour that is already malted.

With an already malted flour (like KABF) most folks would add less or none depending on many other things. With an unmalted flour (typical 00 flour) you are adding it so you get better browning and some flavor when cooking at a lower temp 450-600 degrees. 00 flour is used in high temp ovens because w/o the malt it can resist over browning or burning. 00 flour is a finer milled product so there is a finished crust texture difference compared to AP or typical bread flour so that is another reason to use it and add some malt (assuming you prefer 00 texture and are not cooking north of 700 degrees).

Lots more on this topic but not sure how much info you want. Bottom line, I would not go over 1% if using with an already malted flour unless I was doing an very very long fermentation period (which opens up a whole different can of worms)
Norm

Offline Nwin

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Re: help with the cook time on my pies!
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2018, 02:41:51 PM »
Thanks so much, Norm! Much more than I was expecting for an answer but *extremely* appreciated!

I picked up some KASL, along with All Trumps (5 pounds of bromated and 5 pounds of non-bromated), so I think I'll try a bit of experimentation....first thing will be to try Craig's recipe though!  It's good and also very interesting to learn that malt is normally only used when using 00 flour...I'll have to re-read Craig's thread and try and understand why he used it when using KABF and KASL (I believe those were the two flours he was using).
Nick

Offline norcoscia

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Re: help with the cook time on my pies!
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2018, 02:47:36 PM »
Sure happy (and hope) I helped - you are lucky to have such a nice selection of flours to choose from - All Trumps is my favorite but I have tried KASL (years ago) and I like it too. The LDM thing is really down in the noise unless you use way too much. How you mix and how you process the dough before baking will impact your finished product an order of magnitude more than a gram or two of LDM. The only thing that is very important when making pizza is to have fun!
Norm

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Offline Nwin

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Re: help with the cook time on my pies!
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2018, 03:54:18 PM »
Sure happy (and hope) I helped - you are lucky to have such a nice selection of flours to choose from - All Trumps is my favorite but I have tried KASL (years ago) and I like it too. The LDM thing is really down in the noise unless you use way too much. How you mix and how you process the dough before baking will impact your finished product an order of magnitude more than a gram or two of LDM. The only thing that is very important when making pizza is to have fun!

You definitely helped.  I'm not too lucky regarding the flour.  Admittedly I overpaid from a website (bakersauthority.com) and bought a few 5 pound bags to sample since I've heard so much about them.  One of my friends has a Restaurant Depot card and I went with him once and they had All Trumps there, but I couldn't justify or begin to think of where I could put a 50# bag of the stuff, so this is one way to experiment with this flour and see if I can tell a difference.
Nick

Offline norcoscia

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Re: help with the cook time on my pies!
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2018, 04:34:49 PM »
Good thinking, yes, 50 pounds is a lot - I keep my flour in 5 gal food safe buckets with screw down air tight lids - each bucket will hold ~25 lbs and they are fairly cheap!

BTW, if you eve find yourself in or near Bedford - try a roast beef sub at "Bedford House of Roast Beef" - they have unforgettable roast beef - ate there just about every day for lunch (for months) - so so good - I really miss that place :-)
Norm

Offline Nwin

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Re: help with the cook time on my pies!
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2018, 10:24:59 PM »
Good thinking, yes, 50 pounds is a lot - I keep my flour in 5 gal food safe buckets with screw down air tight lids - each bucket will hold ~25 lbs and they are fairly cheap!

BTW, if you eve find yourself in or near Bedford - try a roast beef sub at "Bedford House of Roast Beef" - they have unforgettable roast beef - ate there just about every day for lunch (for months) - so so good - I really miss that place :-)

Haha, small world!  I used to live in Bedford and frequented that place! I can't remember the exact name of it, but it was Zeke's special or something, that came with roast beef, hots, etc, and it was absolutely amazing! I think I lived about 1 mile from that place and went there quite a bit-it was one of the decent places around Bedford to grab takeout from.  I live in Watertown now, but I wish I could hit that place up again!

Also good to know about the 5 gallon buckets...I couldn't visualize what a 50# bag of flour would go into, but that definitely helps!
Nick

Offline Nwin

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Re: help with the cook time on my pies!
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2018, 12:14:40 PM »
In the interest of not hi-jacking anyone else's thread's any longer, I'll go forward with my results in this thread, and also to help keep a running log of what the heck it is that I'm doing.

Today I started quietdesperation's recipe, based off txcraig's.  The slightly adopted formula I'm using for 2 balls is:


Size:
KASL  (100%): 374.14
Water (63%): 235.7
IDY (.2%): .74
Salt (2%):  7.48
Oil (2%): 7.48
ldmp (1%): 3.74
Sugar (1%): 3.75
Single Ball: 316.51
14 inches

and with this process using a Kitchenaid Pro 600 (thanks QD and norcoscia for your help with this!):

- add cold water, filtered water (from our fridge, 38F) to mixing bowl.
- add flour to mixing bowl followed by other dry ingredients (yeast, salt, sugar and ldm).
- mix at lowest speed until dough ball forms (1.5-2 mins)
- add olive oil and continue to mix at lowest speed until incorporated (1 min)
-Let rest for 30 minutes, with a few stretch and folds at the 15 minute mark
- mix at med speed until dough is satiny (8-10 mins)
- scale and ball dough with 4-5 stretch and folds
 - 5-hour rt ferment

A few notes in this process.  QD made enough for 6 balls of dough and that's an issue I have run into before and only realized when I started making the dough...It's only me and the wife so 6 dough balls will probably rarely ever happen.  I've done two at a time successfully using the 123Pizza recipe, though with that I'm just mixing with a spoon and then hand-kneading, so it's never an issue with scaling.  I immediately realized I couldn't only do one ball in my mixer, so I tried for 2 instead.  It did take a bit longer to come together for the dough ball to form prior to adding the olive oil (about 2:30, and that included scraping the sides down).  Also, the filtered water from my fridge came out at 50 degrees and the room temp in the kitchen is 70 degrees currently, so we'll see how that plays into how long I need to actually RT ferment for.

Current plan is to preheat the oven at 530 for an hour, ensure the steel is at 530 degrees, and then launch.

For sauce, I'll be using some Carmelina San Marzano tomatoes through a medium disc on the food mill with some salt, olive oil, oregano, and fresh basil added to it.  Cheese is local store brand (Market Basket) whole milk low moisture that will be sliced thin.  I've had good results with that cheese in the past, so we will see how it works.
Nick

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: help with the cook time on my pies!
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2018, 01:03:38 PM »
To answer the question on why the sauce became watery after an extended frozen storage period this is most likely due to the effects of a frost free freezer on the cells of the tomato product used in making the sauce. Slow/static freezing results in a very large ice crystal formation which destroys the cells in the tomato which hold the juice (some refer to these as "juice sacks"), similar to what we see in citrus fruits (remember that the tomato is a fruit). The simple act of just slow/static freezing the tomato will destroy many of those juice sacks, but when you add in the impact of defrost and freezing MANY times such as is the case with a frost free freezer (the higher the Energy Rating the worse it is) the sauce becomes almost like water and you can see this in the syneresis that take place if you put a spoon full of sauce on a china plate and wait about 15-minutes. This is why those of us who grow our own tomatoes in an area where freezing temperatures signal the end of the growing season ALWAYS pick the last of our tomatoes prior to the first frost of the season.
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Offline Nwin

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Re: help with the cook time on my pies!
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2018, 01:25:23 PM »
Thanks for the reply Tom!  I'll try and minimize the freezing of my sauce to maybe just once from now on, if at all.  I wish I could get decent tomatoes in a 14 oz can as opposed to the larger ones.
Nick

Offline Nwin

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Re: help with the cook time on my pies!
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2018, 06:34:09 PM »
Alright, so I cooked the above pie and was pretty impressed.  A few notes with some pictures:

Fermentation was done for 5 hours at RT of 70 degrees with 35% humidity.  Upon the initial balling of the dough prior to the ferment, the dough felt much stickier than I am used to working with.  After the five hours, it appears it about doubled in size.

I preheated the oven at 500 degrees but the steel first showed a temperature with the IR gun of 550.  I have a standalone oven thermometer inside the oven which showed 515.  Then it was off to stretch the dough out.

In my previous doughs, I always put a bit of oil in the container when it ferments and then I dab a bit of it off with paper towels.  This was a mistake with this dough.  The paper towel clung right to the dough because it was still sticky.  I was able to save it, but it resulted in the dough not having a perfect circular shape like I'm used to.

This dough seemed really easy to stretch with a minimal amount of flour put on my stainless steel workbench, which was great.  I saw tons of air bubbles in it which was also great.  Immediately I realized I had overlooked one huge thing...I'm used to making 12" pies due to the size of my Pizzacraft wooden peel.  It measures about 12" by 14".  I stretched the dough out and tried putting it on my much larger alumium peel dusted with semolina, but it was already hard to launch compared to the wooden peel, so I stopped stretching the dough out (it was about 13", and put it back on my wooden peel, with the edges hanging off each side just a bit.  I dressed it with sauce (didn't think to measure this, but I will in the future) and about 5.5 oz sliced mozzarella.

Initial launch went perfectly into a 500 degree oven with the steel at 540 degrees.  I let it cook until 5:20 and then noticed the bottom was browning very well but the top crust wasn't too great, but the cheese was cooking.  I tried broiling it (steel is placed on the second rack from the top, with the gas broiler on the top) until 6:50, and then pulled the pizza at 7:30.  Here's the results:


Notes:

-It tasted great.  The sauce was perfect and the crust tasted pretty good, though a spot or two was borderline too crispy (I just think it was browned too much on the bottom on some spots).
 
-I'm not happy with the pooling of the cheese, but I think that is due to my inexperience on stretching the dough perfectly even and having a thin center of the pizza compared to the rest, so I'm guessing everything slid to the center perhaps?  A few of the pieces were pretty soggy in the middle and they bent really quickly when you picked them up.

-Again with the cheese, the outside of it, to me, looks cooked great, maybe even a tad undercooked.  The middle is just a mess though.  I put the cheese in the freezer for about ten minutes prior to dressing the pizza, in an attempt to slow it's cook time down, but I'm open for suggestions on how to improve that aspect.

-I need to do more work on the top cook.  I think I will try and get the steel at 525 and see how that improves slowing the bottom down with cooking and evening out the top cook.

Feeling pretty great with the first pie, we decided to push our luck and stretch the next dough out to 14" on the aluminum peel.  I loaded it up with semolina and stretched the dough out, which went perfectly, but it was already hard to manipulate on the peel, even unloaded.  Unfortunately, once I loaded it up with just sauce, it wouldn't move.  I tried blowing underneath the dough and then sliding parchment paper under it, but it was a lost solider unfortunately.

It's time to go shopping for a bigger wood peel-any recommendations?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 06:52:12 PM by Nwin »
Nick

Offline norcoscia

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Re: help with the cook time on my pies!
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2018, 07:08:23 PM »
They look like they tasted pretty good, getting a workflow down (you are 100% satisfied with) does not happen overnight - I have been making pizza for ~40 years and I'm not 100% happy yet. BTW, when I cook on steel I always go as high as I can with the steel. The steel will give off a lot of heat fast and with only air above it it is hard to get a good balance in a home oven (but every oven is a bit different). By moving up your steel, your pie's top will pick up more radiated heat from the top metal surface of the oven. BTW, that radiated heat from the top falls off very fast (follows the inverse square rule) - so there will be a big difference between 3 inch from the top and 5.

The other thing I do most of the time now is use my paddle for the initial mix until the mixer starts to strain or most everything is picked up. Then I mix a bit by hand to get every bit of loose flour fully incorporated - that is when I go with the rest period. When I'm ready for the final 8-10 min mix I use the hook. That works better for me than trying to use the hook from the beginning - heck, I would use a fork before using the hook to get everything initially mixed.

The final thing I do a bit different is holding off on the oil - I use so little (and with the rest) it is an OK trade for me to get it in sooner than later - my kitchenaid does not do a good job if I mix in in later. Maybe if I had a better mixer holding off on the oil world work better.

Remember have fun - you have a few down and hopefully a million or so to go :-)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 09:10:59 AM by norcoscia »
Norm

Offline Nwin

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Re: help with the cook time on my pies!
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2018, 09:11:17 PM »
You bring up a good point with the steel height, Norm.  I initially had it up there, but figured by moving it down a notch it wouldn't cook so quick.  However, this was when my school of thought was to crank the broiler on and get the steel as hot as I can, trying to aim for an NP style instead of using a lower temp for my NY recipes.  I'll be moving the steel back up to the top once it's cooled down, and just not heating the oven as much as I have in the past as I continue to work on the recipes.

Interesting on the paddle vs dough hook.  I think I might give that a shot too, just to get it to come together a bit quicker.  Absolutely having fun-I'm very glad the first pizza was a success since the second one never launched!
Nick

Offline quietdesperation

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Re: help with the cook time on my pies!
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2018, 05:44:14 AM »
Looks great  :chef: ! the way my oven works, I'd probably move the steel up one notch. On the recipe, as you say, I did make 6 dough balls, have you tried the dough calculator to scale this (or any other) recipe? it does a great job.

what type of cheese are you using?

here are the peels I use, I love them both:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JEOD2FS/?tag=pmak-20
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009LPDPNE/?tag=pmak-20
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 07:35:31 AM by quietdesperation »
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