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Author Topic: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods  (Read 32569 times)

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Offline bregent

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #360 on: October 21, 2017, 02:14:26 PM »
Edit: Actually, it may be pale but could be ultra-light. I'm not sure who the producer is but I got it from Morebeer and don't have the original container. I would think any pale or light syrup you can find should be ok.
https://www.morebeer.com/products/ultralight-malt-extract-syrup.html
https://www.morebeer.com/products/pale-malt-extract-syrup.html
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 02:16:11 PM by bregent »
Bob

Offline bjc113

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #361 on: November 03, 2017, 10:26:12 PM »
tried a batch with 1.75 DMP today, figured it would help the rise - I've been making the dough at night and bulk CF'ing until the AM...then at least 45 min after shaping on the counter I let it rise.

Today I did 500, no stone, on the bottom of a broiler pan with silpats.  No flipping, about 15 min.  Very pleased with the results.

Offline foreplease

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #362 on: November 04, 2017, 12:40:40 AM »
tried a batch with 1.75 DMP today, figured it would help the rise - I've been making the dough at night and bulk CF'ing until the AM...then at least 45 min after shaping on the counter I let it rise.

Today I did 500, no stone, on the bottom of a broiler pan with silpats.  No flipping, about 15 min.  Very pleased with the results.
That’s a good lookng batch! Nicely done.
-Tony
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Offline mitchjg

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #363 on: November 06, 2017, 12:54:31 PM »
I just baked up my first attempt at a batch of pumpernickel rye bagels.  Very happy with the results.

There are not a lot of recipes out there for this type of bagel but my sleuthing on the web and review of a couple of my cookbooks took me to using about 1/3 pumpernickel flour and 2/3 bread flour.  The pumpernickel was organic from a local health food store and the bread flour was Giusto's High Performer - about 13.5% protein and not malted.

The recipe was as follows:

Flour 100%
Water 56%
Salt 2%
IDY 0.7%
Molasses 2%
Cocoa powder 1%
DMP (60 Lintner) 0.2%

The dough produced 8 bagels @ 113 gram4 ounces each.  After they came out of the mixer, I split it in two.  For one of the halves, I hand kneaded in about 4 ounces of raisins - adding about 1 ounce to each.

You will see I used molasses rather than barley syrup to give it a flavor (and color) that I believed would be more akin to a rye bread.  For the same reasons, I added a tablespoon of cocoa powder.  In reading about rye breads and the like from Jewish bakeries, I learned that the dark color comes very much from a coloring agent as opposed to rye flour - often in the form of a caramel coloring syrup.

The dough was mixed for about 8 minutes in my new Bosch Universal mixer.  Even though it was a low hydration dough, the mixer came through with flying colors.  It may be I should have gone longer but it was hard to tell when the dough was fully developed - rye flour (no gluten) behaves very differently than wheat and it turns into kind of wallpaper paste when being mixed.

I then followed my usual procedure - resting an hour, forming bagels, overnight cold ferment, boil and bake in the AM.

The other change was that, in my quest to get a crispier shell, I left the bagels in the oven after they were fully baked with the oven off and the door cracked open a few inches.  I did get a much better, crispy exterior with just the right crunch.  I am not sure if the oven door thing was the trick.  The other factors were, of course, the flours.  I also baked a couple of minutes longer than usual and, due (I imagine) to the flours it did not overbake.  Of course, they may soften up later - time will tell.  The toaster will then be brought into play.

Some of the raisins were on the exterior of the raisin bagels and some were on the burnt side.  I simply picked them off before serving.

My wife and I just shared a raisin pumpernickel with a shmear of cream cheese and we thought it was delicious.  Great experiment!



Mitch

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #364 on: November 06, 2017, 03:32:26 PM »
Mitch,

As I have mentioned before, pumpernickel bagels are amongst my favorite, especially when I find myself in NYC. I suspected that they are not the easiest bagels to make. And that may be one of the reasons that I do not see them often where I live in Texas. There is an Einstein Bagel shop near me that sells pumpernickel bagels but I have been suspicious about the ingredients used to make those bagels. I could not quickly find an ingredients list for their pumpernickel bagels but I did find this ingredients list for their basic bagel:

Plain Bagel (enriched bleached flour (wheat flour, malt barley flour, niacin, ferrous sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), water, high fructose corn syrup, salt, yeast, molasses, wheat gluten, malt barley flour, soy oil, contains less than 2% ascorbic acid, enzyme, L Cysteine).

I shudder to think what the ingredients list looks like for the Einstein Bagels pumpernickel bagel.

Your bagels are at least an attempt at a true pumpernickel bagel and they look great and appetizing. I also like the addition of the raisins.

Peter

 

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Offline mitchjg

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #365 on: November 06, 2017, 04:06:42 PM »
Thanks Peter.

In my sleuthing around, it looked like many pumpernickel bagels have no rye flour - pumpernickel grind or whatever.  They are darkened with a coloring agent (in the ways I described) and not much more.

In further looking around, I can see that I may do one of two things in the future - 1) make a soaker of the pumpernickel flour and water for a few hours before mixing the dough or 2) make a rye starter, get it vibrant and use that in the recipe. My lean is to do number 2.  It is along the lines of several rye bread recipes and I can see that it could add some "tang."  I am not worried much about the color since that is more psychological.

If you have any suggestions to make them more "real", please let me know - I am open to any ideas you may have.  In the meantime, these were really good!
Mitch

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Offline mitchjg

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #366 on: December 03, 2017, 11:14:26 PM »
Onion Rolls (aka Norm's onion rolls on The Freshloaf).  Norm was one of the authors of Inside the Jewish Bakery.

Mitch

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Offline Jackitup

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #367 on: December 04, 2017, 12:22:34 AM »
Onion Rolls (aka Norm's onion rolls on The Freshloaf).  Norm was one of the authors of Inside the Jewish Bakery.

I want a couple of those filled with pastrami!!!! Mustard and horsey sauce on the side please...... :drool:
Jon

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Online jkb

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #368 on: December 04, 2017, 11:45:07 AM »
Onion Rolls (aka Norm's onion rolls on The Freshloaf).  Norm was one of the authors of Inside the Jewish Bakery.

I've made those.  It's a good hard roll dough too.

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #369 on: December 04, 2017, 11:52:21 AM »
I've made those.  It's a good hard roll dough too.

How did you bake to get a "hard roll"?  That has been one of my quests here.  These rolls, after toasting, had exactly the crust I wanted - thin and shattering crust all over.  But, without toasting they are soft (good for what they are, but not the same as hard rolls).

Mitch

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Online jkb

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #370 on: December 04, 2017, 12:54:51 PM »
How did you bake to get a "hard roll"?  That has been one of my quests here.  These rolls, after toasting, had exactly the crust I wanted - thin and shattering crust all over.  But, without toasting they are soft (good for what they are, but not the same as hard rolls).

It's been a while.  I got the idea here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/9021/norm039s-onion-rolls-amp-no-extra-charge-kaiser-rolls

I'm pretty sure I used steam.

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #371 on: December 04, 2017, 04:29:55 PM »
It's been a while.  I got the idea here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/9021/norm039s-onion-rolls-amp-no-extra-charge-kaiser-rolls

I'm pretty sure I used steam.

Thanks - your posts motivated me to go back to the book and do a little reading.  They make an interesting points that you get different roll textures & flavors depending on how long you ferment this dough before shaping/proofing.

They said proofing an extra hour or so, raising the temperature (to 450) and using lots of steam produces Kaiser rolls with a more chewy and open crumb along with a thin crisp crust.  The steam and temperature were sort of obvious but I had never thought about the impact of extending the fermentation.  They encourage you to experiment and divide the dough into 3 and bake each batch at different time periods to experience the impacts.

Thanks again - more work to do!
Mitch

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Offline mitchjg

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #372 on: December 18, 2017, 12:46:36 PM »
Made a challah last night - this one was about 2 pounds - I adjusted the recipe I have been using to increase the size a bit.  The additional egg component was a yolk.  The dough was super-yellow!

(I did not bother weighing the eggs, but they were on the small side)

KABF 500 100.0%
Honey  42.5  8.5%
yolks  (2) 50.0  10.0%
egg(1)  50.0  10.0%
oil 50.0 10.0%
water  175.0  35.0%
salt  10.0  2.0%
IDY  7.5  1.5%

Total  885 177.0%

Mix and ferment (covered) for 2 hours, "punch" down gently after 1 hour
Divide into strands, braid, egg white glaze and cover for 2 hours
Glaze again and sprinkle with poppy and sesame seeds
Bake at 335 for 10 minutes, rotate, bake another 13, cover with foil, bake another 12 (so 35 minutes altogether)
Cooling rack for 1 hour (gentle transfer!)





Mitch

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Offline halfprice

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #373 on: December 19, 2017, 12:52:39 AM »
Made a challah last night - this one was about 2 pounds - I adjusted the recipe I have been using to increase the size a bit.  The additional egg component was a yolk.  The dough was super-yellow!

(I did not bother weighing the eggs, but they were on the small side)

KABF 500 100.0%
Honey  42.5  8.5%
yolks  (2) 50.0  10.0%
egg(1)  50.0  10.0%
oil 50.0 10.0%
water  175.0  35.0%
salt  10.0  2.0%
IDY  7.5  1.5%

Total  885 177.0%

Mix and ferment (covered) for 2 hours, "punch" down gently after 1 hour
Divide into strands, braid, egg white glaze and cover for 2 hours
Glaze again and sprinkle with poppy and sesame seeds
Bake at 335 for 10 minutes, rotate, bake another 13, cover with foil, bake another 12 (so 35 minutes altogether)
Cooling rack for 1 hour (gentle transfer!)
Looks great Mitch.you will enjoy it   I normally use 5 or 6 egg yolks.   They are tasty breads

Jerry

Offline hodgey1

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #374 on: December 26, 2017, 11:51:57 AM »
They said proofing an extra hour or so, raising the temperature (to 450) and using lots of steam produces Kaiser rolls with a more chewy and open crumb along with a thin crisp crust.  The steam and temperature were sort of obvious but I had never thought about the impact of extending the fermentation.  They encourage you to experiment and divide the dough into 3 and bake each batch at different time periods to experience the impacts.

Mitch, I let this batch of Norms onion rolls “without onions” proof for 3hrs at 70* and they more than tripled prior to baking. I baked at 450 for 10 minutes with lots of steam in the beginning.  I was without malt syrup so I substituted ldm.

I like Mitch would desperately love to achieve the outer shell that is so key to the NY hard roll. These rolls were great, but more of a dinner roll consistency than a hard roll. Is it my cheap a__ gas oven? Would I achieve the dry crisp shell if I had a electric oven?

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Offline bjc113

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #375 on: January 13, 2018, 11:08:37 AM »
been a while since I made anything - these are 118 gram bagels, baked at 500 for 15 min no flipping  ;D


Offline norcoscia

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #376 on: February 15, 2018, 04:37:49 PM »
Finally feeling well enough to give these a shot - big thanks to Mitch for posting his recipe and workflow.....
Norm

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #377 on: February 15, 2018, 04:43:59 PM »
Finally feeling well enough to give these a shot - big thanks to Mitch for posting his recipe and workflow.....

Those look terrific - good job!  Did you bake them in your new pizza oven?
Mitch

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Offline norcoscia

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #378 on: February 15, 2018, 04:52:29 PM »
Thanks Mitch - yes baked them in the BP GP-61 - not cool enough yet but ate one anyway - the crumb turned out really nice - thanks again...
Norm

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #379 on: February 15, 2018, 05:14:51 PM »
I made a batch myself but followed a different recipe this time.

It is the one in "Inside the Jewish Bakery" and is also posted here (Stan, who runs this website, is a co-author of the book):
http://nybakers.com/recipes/waterbagels.pdf

Places where I did not exactly follow the recipe:
I used a mix of 2 flours which gave me about 13.25% protein.
I used diastatic malt but also threw in a teaspoon of malt syrup
4 ounce bagels instead of 3 ounces.

I finally ordered some bagel boards and had some fun using them with a stone.  Not really a big difference that I can discern, but fun.

This dough is a lower hydration than my usual - it is 52%.  The flour, btw, is expected to be 136 per cup in the recipe.

Another difference is that the neither the bulk dough nor bagels are left out at room temperature.  They are shaped and put in the fridge right away.  And, on the other end, they are just plunged into the boiling water.  They sink like a stone (you have to nudge them around a bit to stop them from sticking) and they slowly rise to the surface after about 3 minutes.  Take them out and go.

They were excellent.  As you would expect, the crumb was pretty fine and on the dense and chewy side - as it should be.

I am still seeking a crispier crust.  It fades pretty rapidly once they are out of the oven - not unlike pizza.  I find that either heating in the oven for a few minutes or toasting them takes care of it.  But, if anyone has been able to have them come out crispy and stay that way - please let me know how you do it.


« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 05:16:43 PM by mitchjg »
Mitch

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