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Author Topic: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods  (Read 25831 times)

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Offline mitchjg

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2015, 11:37:30 AM »
Josh - I tend to avoiding posting recipes from a book - but I do so when I know the recipe is already out there, usually with the author's permission.

Having said that, you may want to look at this thread - http://www.thefreshloaf.com/recipes/kaiserrolls
Lots of information there, including recipes and how to shape the rolls.  I wish I had seen it before I shaped them.  I think it may have been that I needed to press down on the center really hard after making the pleats. 

The recipe I used was from Inside the Jewish Bakery.  I am not sure if it is the final answer for me until I try another recipe for comparison and until I get the shaping right.  But, these were excellent in taste and texture - just ugly.  I also ordered a Kaiser Roll Stamp from Amazon for $6.  You just press it down and it does the dirty work for you.  Good reviews.

PS. Your Mailbox is full.  Tried to send a PM.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 11:49:38 AM by mitchjg »
Mitch

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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #41 on: March 30, 2015, 02:48:54 PM »
Rugelach:

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2015, 10:09:52 AM »
Rugelach:

Nice!!!  That has been on my hit list, possibly next.   Did you roll up triangles of dough?  My cookbook also shows you that you can make a roll a long filled log and then make slices - same dough, filling, etc. but then they are called "Mini-Schnecken."  Easier production.

Mitch

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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2015, 10:34:18 AM »
Nice!!!  That has been on my hit list, possibly next.   Did you roll up triangles of dough?  My cookbook also shows you that you can make a roll a long filled log and then make slices - same dough, filling, etc. but then they are called "Mini-Schnecken."  Easier production.

Thanks. Hard to see from the photo since each piece has a thick coat of sugar/ground nuts/cinnamon. A piece of dough (made with butter and cream cheese) is rolled out into a rectangle. Fillings (prune lekvar, chopped dates, apricots, roasted nuts, etc.) are spread over the sheet. The sheet is then rolled up into a long cylinder which is brushed with egg wash. Thick slices are cut from the cylinder, dipped into the coating, and placed cut side down on the cooking sheet. Recipe from Baking with Julia by Dorie Greenspan. I don't care what you call these things, they are amazing with coffee after they have cooled for a few hours. I was never a fan of rugelach until I found this recipe.

Offline misterschu

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2015, 04:38:28 PM »
Nice!!!  That has been on my hit list, possibly next.   Did you roll up triangles of dough?  My cookbook also shows you that you can make a roll a long filled log and then make slices - same dough, filling, etc. but then they are called "Mini-Schnecken."  Easier production.

For rugelach, Ina Garten uses slices from a circle, which seems appropriate for this forum. In my mind rugelach can be made either way, from the triangle or the roll that's sliced, while schnecken come closer to cinnamon/sticky buns because they are from yeasted doughs in my experience.

Is anyone familiar with a large danish/pastry called meltaway or pullapart. It's along the lines of a coffee cake, but is around 12" diameter circle and 1" high. Folded dough with chocolate or vanilla filling, crumb topping. This is an okay looking example, but the best I've ever had was from a bakery in Mount Vernon, NY called the Cake Nook that closed 15+ years ago, owned by a former White House Pastry chef. I'd love to find a recipe for this. I looked at the NY library, but have been stalled by the fact that most of their cookbooks that may have this have to be requested in person two hours in advance to be brought up from the non-publicly accessible stacks.

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Offline mitchjg

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2015, 10:09:52 PM »
For rugelach, Ina Garten uses slices from a circle, which seems appropriate for this forum. In my mind rugelach can be made either way, from the triangle or the roll that's sliced, while schnecken come closer to cinnamon/sticky buns because they are from yeasted doughs in my experience.

Is anyone familiar with a large danish/pastry called meltaway or pullapart. It's along the lines of a coffee cake, but is around 12" diameter circle and 1" high. Folded dough with chocolate or vanilla filling, crumb topping. This is an okay looking example, but the best I've ever had was from a bakery in Mount Vernon, NY called the Cake Nook that closed 15+ years ago, owned by a former White House Pastry chef. I'd love to find a recipe for this. I looked at the NY library, but have been stalled by the fact that most of their cookbooks that may have this have to be requested in person two hours in advance to be brought up from the non-publicly accessible stacks.

Well, I never heard of shnecken before but that will not deter me from taking a crack at rugelach, triangles or whatever.  Bill's looks great and I have to check them off of my "to-do" list.

With respect to the pull apart or meltaways - I browsed through Inside the Jewish Bakery book and did not see anything like it.  You may want to send an email to Stan Ginsberg, the author.  His website is NYBakers.com and there is a contact form. 

Today's business: we ran out of rolls and bagels so it was time for me to take another crack at Kaiser Rolls.  This time I used the Kaiser Roll Stamp rather than try to make the pleats by hand.  Much, much better.  A tiny bit tricky because you have to press down hard and go almost to the bottom, but not to the bottom.  It took 3 or 4 times to feel like I had the hang of it.  All good.

Pictures below of the batch, a pretty good one and a not-so-good one.  The not-so-good still looked a lot better than the best of the last bunch.  I think I have this mostly figured out and I need to check a few other recipes to see what's what.
Mitch

“We hate math,” says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans

Offline JD

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2015, 07:01:58 PM »
I finally got a little break from general life, so I took a shot at making some hard rolls. Not bad for my first attempt, but I think I may eliminate the egg all together next time I make them. It was fun, but pretty difficult to make the pleats.
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Offline mitchjg

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2015, 09:27:44 PM »
They sure as heck look better than my first attempt - nice work!

Interested in how you found the texture and flavor.  I found the favor to be excellent but it did not really make me think of the sandwich rolls in NY.  I said several times to my wife that they tasted a bit like challah - because of both the egg and the sweet.  So, I think you are on to something there.  I looked at the King Arthur website and they also have egg and sugar (instead of malt syrup).  Bread Baker's Apprentice also uses egg and malt syrup.  So, I am a little confused there.

The other thing I would like your comment on was crispiness in the crust.  I could not get as much as I wanted.

In the meantime, we still have a few left in the freezer (we made 2 dozen altogether) but have enjoyed each and every one as a toasted sandwich bread.



Mitch

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Offline JD

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2015, 11:24:41 PM »
They sure as heck look better than my first attempt - nice work!

Interested in how you found the texture and flavor.  I found the favor to be excellent but it did not really make me think of the sandwich rolls in NY.  I said several times to my wife that they tasted a bit like challah - because of both the egg and the sweet.  So, I think you are on to something there.  I looked at the King Arthur website and they also have egg and sugar (instead of malt syrup).  Bread Baker's Apprentice also uses egg and malt syrup.  So, I am a little confused there.

The other thing I would like your comment on was crispiness in the crust.  I could not get as much as I wanted.

In the meantime, we still have a few left in the freezer (we made 2 dozen altogether) but have enjoyed each and every one as a toasted sandwich bread.

Thanks Mitch, whether you know it or not you helped a lot  ;). To answer your questions I was thinking exactly the same as you - Challah. Its a great tasting roll but not really the NY hard roll I remember. Out of the oven it had a hard/flaky shell, but after cooling it was soft.  There are some obvious dissimilarities to the hard roll you and I remember, but I have no idea what to change to get it right. At the very least, reduce or eliminating the egg would probably be a start.

Either way these will make great sandwich rolls, and my first will probably be a bacon egg & cheese. If I could only clone that NY deli griddle taste....
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Offline mitchjg

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2015, 06:06:29 PM »
Josh:

I have been doing some digging around, reading threads over at thefreshloaf.com .  There is a thread that sounds like you and me - someone pining away for the hard, flaky sandwich rolls from NY.  Some say the recipe with eggs and malt is exactly right, some say "that ain't it."

One person, that I know is very knowledgeable and experience, says use egg whites, not eggs. 

Although not the solution, one person experienced the same thing as I have been experiencing.  I have a few in the freezer.  When I take one out, I nuke it for about 15 seconds - just enough to soften it up to be able to slice it in half.  Then I toast.  It comes out with pretty much exactly the flakiness that I wanted.  the crust was flaking off and my plate was covered with the pieces of flaked crust.  I remember it that way - but not toasted.  It is turning out to be really good eats.  Anyway, the person's "solution" was to bake the roll a second time and that makes the crust crispy and flaky.  I am thinking this means it has something to do with lots of steam.

i am going to keep sleuthing, but I will probably do both next time - egg whites and not whole egg and redouble on the attempt for lots of steam, sprayed water in the oven.

Let me know how it goes for you if you make another batch.
Mitch

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Offline JD

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #50 on: April 20, 2015, 08:25:09 AM »
Mitch,

I also remember hard rolls making a mess, and it's interesting that microwaving your rolls created a flaky crust. I made a NY style bacon, egg & cheese yesterday and also re-heated a frozen roll from the freezer. My roll was not flaky at all, but very soft. Baking twice makes sense, I'll have to try that on one of my rolls out of the freezer, but I assume you mean twice the same day of baking?

Using egg whites sounds interesting. I do enjoy the flavor of egg in bread, as in a good Challah, but it's not right for a hard roll.

Since I have a dozen rolls in the freezer, it will be a little while until I make these again. Also, I'm moving back to NY in 3 weeks so I'll have access to all the things I've been trying to clone  :-D It doesn't matter though, I am still going to continue making NY pizza/rolls because it's fun.

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Offline mitchjg

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #51 on: April 20, 2015, 09:06:04 AM »
Mitch,

I also remember hard rolls making a mess, and it's interesting that microwaving your rolls created a flaky crust. I made a NY style bacon, egg & cheese yesterday and also re-heated a frozen roll from the freezer. My roll was not flaky at all, but very soft. Baking twice makes sense, I'll have to try that on one of my rolls out of the freezer, but I assume you mean twice the same day of baking?

Using egg whites sounds interesting. I do enjoy the flavor of egg in bread, as in a good Challah, but it's not right for a hard roll.

Since I have a dozen rolls in the freezer, it will be a little while until I make these again. Also, I'm moving back to NY in 3 weeks so I'll have access to all the things I've been trying to clone  :-D It doesn't matter though, I am still going to continue making NY pizza/rolls because it's fun.

I was not thinking it was the microwaving part (it was only 15 seconds and just to get it soft enough to cut) - I just thought it was the fact that it went in the toaster oven.  But, who knows?  Yep, I meant baking twice the same day.  I doubt very much it is the "correct" way to make these rolls. 

Best of luck on your move!  You will, no doubt, be caught up in real life of a job, etc. but I hope you decide to go on a NY crawl and journal it all!
Mitch

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Offline JD

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #52 on: April 20, 2015, 09:57:46 AM »
Best of luck on your move!  You will, no doubt, be caught up in real life of a job, etc. but I hope you decide to go on a NY crawl and journal it all!

It's going to be interesting to try other places now that I have such a higher appreciation for the craft. You're right, I may have to do a crawl one weekend... hmm  :D

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Offline BobC

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2015, 04:42:08 PM »
Quote
For those unfamiliar with bialys:

A bialy (bē-ˈa-lē) is round like a bagel:

- no hole, but a depression
- not boiled
- more soft on the outside than crisp when compared to a bagel
- typically, the depression is filled with onions

I love bialys with the onion/poppyseed filling.  they have oil and salt too.  I made them once a few years ago, and was told they were "chewy", to which I replied, "They are SUPPOSED to be chewy!"
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 02:30:57 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Mmmph

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2015, 05:36:31 PM »
The bialys that Mitch made look great. I like bialys with caramelized onions in the center...with a schmear.
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Offline mitchjg

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2015, 09:59:31 PM »
Here is another batch of Kaiser Rolls out of the oven this afternoon.  I think I addressed the issue of the rolls tasting too much like challah.  I used egg white (not whole eggs) and cut back on the sugar a bit.  Good flavor, very soft crumb, but I still am not getting the crispy flaky crust.  I know they will be just the way I want them when they are toasted and it may just be steam weakness in a home oven.

I also made another batch of bagels  and rye bread this week - our bread shortage is over.   ;D

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26375.msg377547#msg377547

So, I now have no remaining excuses.  I need to move on and learn how to make the Rugelach.................. >:D



Mitch

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Offline JD

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #56 on: April 28, 2015, 08:37:07 AM »
Here is another batch of Kaiser Rolls out of the oven this afternoon.  I think I addressed the issue of the rolls tasting too much like challah.  I used egg white (not whole eggs) and cut back on the sugar a bit.  Good flavor, very soft crumb, but I still am not getting the crispy flaky crust.  I know they will be just the way I want them when they are toasted and it may just be steam weakness in a home oven.

I also made another batch of bagels  and rye bread this week - our bread shortage is over.   ;D

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26375.msg377547#msg377547

So, I now have no remaining excuses.  I need to move on and learn how to make the Rugelach.................. >:D

Those look great Mitch. Next time I make rolls I'll do exactly what you did.

What do you think about twice baking on the same day? ie bake, let them cool for 10-20 minutes, then bake again. I wonder if that would help with getting a permanent flaky crust?
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Offline mitchjg

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2015, 09:17:08 AM »
Aside from "give up", I have thought about the following options:

1 bake them a second time as you described.  I know it worked for me in the last batch in the sense that the toaster oven made the crust just the way I like it.  BTW, that is my case for "give up".  Most of the rolls go in the freezer anyway.

2 Use my cloche (ceramic bell for baking breads from Sassafras).  It is a mini steam chamber and is very effective.  I think I can only bake about 4 rolls at a time.  So, I would possibly have to sequester the others in the fridge until their turn to avoid over-proofing.  I am pretty sure this would work but the work time is increased.

3. Brush with egg white wash.  I saw web threads where some people did this twice.

4. When the rolls are done (or almost done), shut the oven off and open it a couple of inches and let the rolls cool down very slowly.  I have only done this with biscotti but I have read about this in a few places. 

I actually think that, on my next round, I will try number 4.

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Mitch

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Offline JD

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #58 on: April 28, 2015, 09:39:52 AM »
I imagine NY hard rolls are mass produced somewhere, so #1 & #4 sound like something they could do on a large scale.




Maybe, when you get to NY, you can interrogate a baker there. :)

 


That sounds like a good idea,  I'm going to become the pm.com mole of NY  >:D

At the very least I can overnight ship to anyone who wants and just call it a day
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Offline vtsteve

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Re: Bialys, Bagels and Other NY / Jewish Bakery Goods
« Reply #59 on: April 28, 2015, 11:49:01 AM »
I want to try these, from a German-language site (thank you Chrome auto-translate):  http://www.homebaking.at/handsemmel/

They recommend venting the oven for the last 5 minutes.
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