Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => Other Types => Topic started by: jimd on November 08, 2006, 02:03:06 PM

Title: No Knead Dough
Post by: jimd on November 08, 2006, 02:03:06 PM
Today's New York Times has an article about a baker in New York (the fellow owns the Sullivan Street Bakery, which I believe produces very good bread). He uses a method that appears to involve virtually no kneading of the dough, just a very slow rise with little yeast and a wet dough. The wetness of the dough is what is described as allowing the dough to develop  its gluten without kneading. Here is a link to the article for those interested:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/08mini.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

You will note that there must be a typo in the text, as a very wet dough is described as 42% hydration. There is also a video on the page that is linked, although I have not been able to have it play properly.

This method seems to be the ultimate "less is more" approach. I know that the "stretch and fold" technique has been discussed here in connection with using less aggressive kneading, and this seems to go much further. It may also not translate well to preparing pizza dough, but may be worth a try.

In the past, I have tried using less kneading and incorporating several "stretch and folds" in making pizza dough, and must say that, especially when using Caputo flour, the dough seems to benefit most from thorough kneading of at least 15 minutes, and sometimes more like 30.

Hope you enjoy the link, as it at least food for thought.

Jim
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Bill/SFNM on November 08, 2006, 03:28:37 PM

You will note that there must be a typo in the text, as a very wet dough is described as 42% hydration. There is also a video on the page that is linked, although I have not been able to have it play properly.


Not a typo. There is a difference between the hydration we talk about on this forum which is the ratio of water to flour (bakers% by weight). The number in the article is the proportion of water in the mixed dough (the article implies by weight).

Bill/SFNM
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: dmun on November 10, 2006, 07:37:57 AM
Hey, it works. I was skeptical about the AP flour, but it turned out great even though the dough was a mess when it went into the hot pot. Clearly I need work on handling high-hydration dough: no way I could have formed this mess into a pizza skin. The simple steam trap creates a great crust, and 500f was, if anything, too hot.
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Fio on November 10, 2006, 09:02:43 AM
Hey, it works. I was skeptical about the AP flour, but it turned out great even though the dough was a mess when it went into the hot pot. Clearly I need work on handling high-hydration dough: no way I could have formed this mess into a pizza skin. The simple steam trap creates a great crust, and 500f was, if anything, too hot.

So, are you trying to tell us that you can bake, as well as make a geodesic dome oven? :chef:

So I suppose the next thing you'll tell us is that you build clocks from scratch?

Yeah, right!  >:D
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: MTPIZZA on November 10, 2006, 03:35:03 PM
Thanks a ton for this article/video of this technique. I was going to jump into making Ciabatta bread as it uses very very wet dough.. but this is so much easier. I can't wait to try it as well... Nice pics of the bread too... thanks again for sharing!!! :D
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: widespreadpizza on November 12, 2006, 01:22:17 PM
heres my attempt,  looks goo smells good, crackling out of the crock pot liner i used.  KA bread w/semolina as the release agent.  Ill post some crumb pics ater cooling, i suspect the airy structure as bread is light. I made 2 doughs last night , my 10 year he did most of it.  Thinking of making a siciiain (no oil in dough though) style out of the next dough during the game.  check these pics out! -marc
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: widespreadpizza on November 13, 2006, 08:57:07 AM
this bread was beyond good.  I will probably give up on making bread in any other manner from here forward.  Why mess with a good thing.  Made a sicilian too, which was quite good, but next time would reduce the amount of dough used and let it rise in the pan on oil.  Anyone care to guess how much starter I should use to be equivilent to a .25 teaspoon as this recipie calls for?  -marc
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Y-TOWN on November 13, 2006, 01:14:56 PM
Would someone be kind enough to post the no-knead dough recipe in cups, teaspoons, etc. for those of us not using bakers percentages ?

I'd like to try it, but only understand the rookie ways of dough prep :-[

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: dmun on November 13, 2006, 01:26:14 PM
Would someone be kind enough to post the no-knead dough recipe in cups, teaspoons, etc. for those of us not using bakers percentages ?

I'd like to try it, but only understand the rookie ways of dough prep :-[

Thanks in advance

Easy. Mix 3 cups AP flour, 1/4 teaspon instant yeast, 1 1/4 teaspoons salt, briefly. Stir in 1 1/2 cups water, until just combined. Cover bowl, leave at room temperature for 18 hours. Turn out onto floured surface,  spread out, fold twice, cover, wait two more hours. Preheat oven to 475 f. for 30 minutes with covered dutch oven inside. Dump wet dough into hot dutch oven, cook covered for 30 minutes, 10 more uncovered. Cool. Eat.
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: mmarston on November 13, 2006, 01:44:48 PM
Note that you need a 6-8 qt Dutch oven or similar heavy covered pot.
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: jimd on November 13, 2006, 02:01:46 PM
In terms of using a dutch oven, cloche or similar item, I did not have any of these items but was dying to try the recipe over the weekend. I used an aluminum pot that is meant for the stove, and it was a mistake. It gave off a metallic odor as it heated up in the oven, and the bread retained some of this metallic flavor. A really heavy cast iron pot or dutch oven is a much better bet. My pot also had handles made of plastic, and they near-melted in the oven (yes, I know, I should have worried about this before hand).

Jim
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: mmarston on November 13, 2006, 02:08:59 PM
If you're looking to buy an enameled cast iron dutch oven try the Lodge brand. The're much cheaper than the fancy French ones and the favorite of Fine Cooking Magazine. I found one on Amazon for $85!!
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: MTPIZZA on November 13, 2006, 03:44:17 PM
I like the suggestion in this thead to use a crock pot ceramic insert from a crock pot and use that as your cooking vessel... (who does'nt own one of these??)...It can withstand the heat and a smaller diameter I would think would mean a higher rise in the final bread..(see the great pictures above)...
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: nepa-pizza-snob on November 15, 2006, 11:14:21 PM
this is a fantastic concept - I am sold. Handling the wet dough is a challenge, but I may work on lowering the
percent a bit to get the texture of the bread just so. How are all of you handling it? I let it rise in a plastic
bowl on the counter for 18 hours - then folded it over twice and shaped it (on a silicone baking mat) 3 hours
later it rose again and was huge - I wrestled the oversized blob into the hot pot and baked for 30 min. @ 475

We devoured the hot loaf with peppered salame, hot soppresata and provolone - DELICIOUS
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: MTPIZZA on November 16, 2006, 03:15:07 PM
I think that by keeping the hydration high and a very wet dough lends itself to a wonderfully light and moist bread. In order to make it more managable to handle I'm going to try either cutting the recipe down  or in half to make a size good for a dinner where its all eaten at once... (just my wife and I)... or make the standard recipe but cut the dough into smaller pieces before shaping and bake several smaller loafs... freeze what you don't eat. Trying to plop a large wet piece of dough into a very hot pot is very awkward.
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: REMOISE on November 16, 2006, 04:06:06 PM
I tried making the bread but first time the bread came out great and with a wonderful crust but the interior did not have big holes that i am aspiring for although it tasted great.second time it really looked bad but the interior had great big holes.i used bread flour as I  am skeptical using ap flour.Can anyone help me solve my problem.The first batch was wet dough and the second even wetter and really almost impossible to throw in the pot.I used " cup of bread flour 1 1/4 teaspoon salt 1/4 teaspoon yeast. How can I achieve this great big holes? I am trying with another batch right now and this time ap flour but it really looks wet while it is fermenting.Also when I shape and fold it  how long till I bake it Just 2 hours or could I go longer?
Thanks,
Remoise
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: dmun on November 16, 2006, 09:59:04 PM
How can I achieve this great big holes? I am trying with another batch right now and this time ap flour but it really looks wet while it is fermenting.
I think the recipe is designed to work with all purpose flour. Try that first before you make changes. I didn't think AP flour could get crumb and crust like that, but it works.
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: nepa-pizza-snob on November 16, 2006, 11:02:21 PM
I am in love with this concept and will be experimenting every other day with it. I am going to experiment
with different sized and shaped containers. I made a 77 percent highly kneaded dough the other day in teflon
cupcake pans they were fantastic. Light crispy exterior, moist large voids inside, but this no knead dough easily
rivaled that dough with much less work. I see custom fired pottery bread pans in my future.
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Lydia on November 17, 2006, 03:38:25 AM
Wow! I'm surprize at the response to no-knead doughs.

I just got my hands on Caputo Blue and the first recipe I tried was based on a Cibatta style using the old-school no-knead technique. I was very happy with the results. But I should mention that I am not aware of Caputos full potential. It might benefit from making some changes mentioned in the article.

This is what I did. It's going to be brief.

450g Caputo Blue
150g Semolina
475g warm water 86F
6 g IDY (2 1/4 tsp)
10 g fine popcorn salt

Combine all ingredients with paddle attachment
Rest 10 min.
Change to dough hook (easily cleans from paddle) Gluten development was quite impressive at this stage).
Speed 3 for 15 minutes.
Rest 1 1/2 hours, covered.
Divide into 2 dough balls One at 532 g  the other at 535g
rest 45 min.
dough stretches with very little resistence but not elastic enough to toss.

Curently my oven only reaches a bit above 500F so it took about 15 minutes.
I plan on messing with my oven calibration to fix it.
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: tonymark on November 17, 2006, 05:51:31 PM
Didn't have time to read the original article and now it is in the archives.  I could track down a printed paper.  Does anyone know if it is in there?  Can someone please post, in detail, the original technique with baker % or weights?  I would appreciated very much.

Thanks,
TM
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: deb415611 on November 17, 2006, 06:28:52 PM
Tonymark,

I think the recipe and technique may be posted on the Cooking Light message boards.  I'll go check.  I have been meaning to read it also.  I'll see what I can find.

This has been a pretty wild topic everywhere.  I have seen it here, Cooking Light and on the King Arthur Baking Circle. 

Deb
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: deb415611 on November 17, 2006, 06:42:54 PM
Tonymark - Here is the recipe copied out of the cooking light message board:



There's an interesting article in Mark Bittman's Minimalist column in the New York Times about a new technique for making a crusty yeast bread without kneading. Essentially you use only 1/4 tsp yeast, let the dough rise 18 hours, and then toss the dough in a preheated ceramic, cast iron or Pyrex pot to bake. I have started the recipe rising and am looking forward to seeing the results tomorrow.

Here's the article about the technique called The Secret of Great Bread: Let Time Do the Work:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/d...ing&oref=slogin

Here's the actual recipe.

Recipe: No-Knead Bread

Published: November 8, 2006
Adapted from Jim Lahey, Sullivan Street Bakery
Time: About 1½ hours plus 14 to 20 hours’ rising


3 cups all-purpose or bread flour, more for dusting
¼ teaspoon instant yeast
1¼ teaspoons salt
Cornmeal or wheat bran as needed.

1. In a large bowl combine flour, yeast and salt. Add 1 5/8 cups water, and stir until blended; dough will be shaggy and sticky. Cover bowl with plastic wrap. Let dough rest at least 12 hours, preferably about 18, at warm room temperature, about 70 degrees.

2. Dough is ready when its surface is dotted with bubbles. Lightly flour a work surface and place dough on it; sprinkle it with a little more flour and fold it over on itself once or twice. Cover loosely with plastic wrap and let rest about 15 minutes.

3. Using just enough flour to keep dough from sticking to work surface or to your fingers, gently and quickly shape dough into a ball. Generously coat a cotton towel (not terry cloth) with flour, wheat bran or cornmeal; put dough seam side down on towel and dust with more flour, bran or cornmeal. Cover with another cotton towel and let rise for about 2 hours. When it is ready, dough will be more than double in size and will not readily spring back when poked with a finger.

4. At least a half-hour before dough is ready, heat oven to 450 degrees. Put a 6- to 8-quart heavy covered pot (cast iron, enamel, Pyrex or ceramic) in oven as it heats. When dough is ready, carefully remove pot from oven. Slide your hand under towel and turn dough over into pot, seam side up; it may look like a mess, but that is O.K. Shake pan once or twice if dough is unevenly distributed; it will straighten out as it bakes. Cover with lid and bake 30 minutes, then remove lid and bake another 15 to 30 minutes, until loaf is beautifully browned. Cool on a rack.

Yield: One 1½-pound loaf.
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: mmarston on November 17, 2006, 06:46:17 PM
This recipe is a work of staggering genius! I have never baked this type of bread before and the result was incredible!

No-Knead Bread
Adapted from Jim Lahey, Sullivan Street Bakery?Time: About 1½ hours plus 14 to 20 hours? rising

3 cups (15 oz) all-purpose or bread flour, more for dusting?¼ teaspoon instant yeast?1¼ teaspoons salt?Cornmeal or wheat bran as needed.
1. In a large bowl combine flour, yeast and salt. Add 1 5/8 (13 oz) cups water, and stir until blended; dough will be shaggy and sticky. Cover bowl with plastic wrap. Let dough rest at least 12 hours, preferably about 18, at warm room temperature, about 70 degrees.
2. Dough is ready when its surface is dotted with bubbles. Lightly flour a work surface and place dough on it; sprinkle it with a little more flour and fold it over on itself once or twice. Cover loosely with plastic wrap and let rest about 15 minutes.
3. Using just enough flour to keep dough from sticking to work surface or to your fingers, gently and quickly shape dough into a ball. Generously coat a cotton towel (not terry cloth) with flour, wheat bran or cornmeal; put dough seam side down on towel and dust with more flour, bran or cornmeal. Cover with another cotton towel and let rise for about 2 hours. When it is ready, dough will be more than double in size and will not readily spring back when poked with a finger.
4. At least a half-hour before dough is ready, heat oven to 450 degrees. Put a 6- to 8-quart heavy covered pot (cast iron, enamel, Pyrex or ceramic) in oven as it heats. When dough is ready, carefully remove pot from oven. Slide your hand under towel and turn dough over into pot, seam side up; it may look like a mess, but that is O.K. Shake pan once or twice if dough is unevenly distributed; it will straighten out as it bakes. Cover with lid and bake 30 minutes, then remove lid and bake another 15 to 30 minutes, until loaf is beautifully browned. Cool on a rack.
Yield: One 1½-pound loaf.

NOTES FROM NYT FOOD FORUM

kobulnicky - 2:48 PM ET November 13, 2006 (#10921 of 10954)

Help with wet dough
I have had great success with the no-knead recipe and i am a fairly experienced home artisan baker. So ... here is some advice. ??
1. Follow the recipe the first time, no matter what bread you really like. Get to know the recipe before you vary it by flours or additives. ??
2. Weigh flour and water. Dry measurements are highly inaccurate. I use 15 oz. of flour at 5 oz per cup and 13 oz of water. ??
3. When you take the dough out of the bowl after the first rising give it a few folds (use a plastic dough scraper to help and some, but not a lot of extra flour). Then let it rest for 10 minutes. The folds and rest help to strengthen it. ??
4. After it rests, shape it. My son is a professional baker and he reminds me all the time that this step is the baker's art. Do the best you can. ??
5. Flour the towel heavily. You can always brush off excess flour when the loaf is done if needed. ??
6. Here is the biggest help. Start easy and learn before you get to the hard part. Wet dough is tricky. So ... start with 16oz flour and 12 oz of water. It will be a nice dough to work but not as tasty or stringy on the inside. Crust will be a bit harder too. But, you can manage it. Then, with practice, move each subsequent batch toward the final proportions. I'd up the water first to 13 oz and then cut the flour to 15. ??Hope this helps. ??
BTW ... using 7.5 oz white and 7.5 oz durham with a sesame seed coating on the top makes a GREAT loaf of Semolina bread. The durham also absorbs a bit more water so not quite as gooey.


Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: tonymark on November 17, 2006, 06:48:56 PM
Thank you very much
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on November 17, 2006, 07:48:09 PM
It's useful for our members to keep in mind that many NYT articles can be found after they go into paid archives by doing a simple Google search. There are many people who are familiar with the NYT practice and grab the articles and post them before they go into the archive system. As an example, I did a quick Google search and found the NYT no-knead dough arricle here: http://www.metafooder.com/?p=112. Not all NYT articles find a home elsewhere, but many do.

Peter
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: jimd on November 18, 2006, 09:23:09 AM
Here is the text of the entire article:

INNOVATIONS in bread baking are rare. In fact, the 6,000-year-old process hasn't changed much since Pasteur made the commercial production of standardized yeast possible in 1859. The introduction of the gas stove, the electric mixer and the food processor made the process easier, faster and more reliable.

I'm not counting sliced bread as a positive step, but Jim Lahey's method may be the greatest thing since.

This story began in late September when Mr. Lahey sent an e-mail message inviting me to attend a session of a class he was giving at Sullivan Street Bakery, which he owns, at 533 West 47th Street in Manhattan. His wording was irresistible: ''I'll be teaching a truly minimalist breadmaking technique that allows people to make excellent bread at home with very little effort. The method is surprisingly simple -- I think a 4-year-old could master it -- and the results are fantastic.''

I set up a time to visit Mr. Lahey, and we baked together, and the only bad news is that you cannot put your 4-year-old to work producing bread for you. The method is complicated enough that you would need a very ambitious 8-year-old. But the results are indeed fantastic.

Mr. Lahey's method is striking on several levels. It requires no kneading. (Repeat: none.) It uses no special ingredients, equipment or techniques. It takes very little effort.

It accomplishes all of this by combining a number of unusual though not unheard of features. Most notable is that you'll need about 24 hours to create a loaf; time does almost all the work. Mr. Lahey's dough uses very little yeast, a quarter teaspoon (you almost never see a recipe with less than a teaspoon), and he compensates for this tiny amount by fermenting the dough very slowly. He mixes a very wet dough, about 42 percent water, which is at the extreme high end of the range that professional bakers use to create crisp crust and large, well-structured crumb, both of which are evident in this loaf.

The dough is so sticky that you couldn't knead it if you wanted to. It is mixed in less than a minute, then sits in a covered bowl, undisturbed, for about 18 hours. It is then turned out onto a board for 15 minutes, quickly shaped (I mean in 30 seconds), and allowed to rise again, for a couple of hours. Then it's baked. That's it.

I asked Harold McGee, who is an amateur breadmaker and best known as the author of ''On Food and Cooking'' (Scribner, 2004), what he thought of this method. His response: ''It makes sense. The long, slow rise does over hours what intensive kneading does in minutes: it brings the gluten molecules into side-by-side alignment to maximize their opportunity to bind to each other and produce a strong, elastic network. The wetness of the dough is an important piece of this because the gluten molecules are more mobile in a high proportion of water, and so can move into alignment easier and faster than if the dough were stiff.''

That's as technical an explanation as I care to have, enough to validate what I already knew: Mr. Lahey's method is creative and smart.

But until this point, it's not revolutionary. Mr. McGee said he had been kneading less and less as the years have gone by, relying on time to do the work for him. Charles Van Over, author of the authoritative book on food-processor dough making, ''The Best Bread Ever'' (Broadway, 1997), long ago taught me to make a very wet dough (the food processor is great at this) and let it rise slowly. And, as Mr. Lahey himself notes, ''The Egyptians mixed their batches of dough with a hoe.''

What makes Mr. Lahey's process revolutionary is the resulting combination of great crumb, lightness, incredible flavor -- long fermentation gives you that -- and an enviable, crackling crust, the feature of bread that most frequently separates the amateurs from the pros. My bread has often had thick, hard crusts, not at all bad, but not the kind that shatter when you bite into them. Producing those has been a bane of the amateur for years, because it requires getting moisture onto the bread as the crust develops.

To get that kind of a crust, professionals use steam-injected ovens. At home I have tried brushing the dough with water (a hassle and ineffective); spraying it (almost as ineffective and requiring frequent attention); throwing ice cubes on the floor of the oven (not good for the oven, and not far from ineffective); and filling a pot with stones and preheating it, then pouring boiling water over the stones to create a wet sauna (quite effective but dangerous, physically challenging and space-consuming). I was discouraged from using La Cloche, a covered stoneware dish, by my long-standing disinclination to crowd my kitchen with inessential items that accomplish only one chore. I was discouraged from buying a $5,000 steam-injected oven by its price.

It turns out there's no need for any of this. Mr. Lahey solves the problem by putting the dough in a preheated covered pot -- a common one, a heavy one, but nothing fancy. For one loaf he used an old Le Creuset enameled cast iron pot; for another, a heavy ceramic pot. (I have used cast iron with great success.) By starting this very wet dough in a hot, covered pot, Mr. Lahey lets the crust develop in a moist, enclosed environment. The pot is in effect the oven, and that oven has plenty of steam in it. Once uncovered, a half-hour later, the crust has time to harden and brown, still in the pot, and the bread is done. (Fear not. The dough does not stick to the pot any more than it would to a preheated bread stone.)

The entire process is incredibly simple, and, in the three weeks I've been using it, absolutely reliable. Though professional bakers work with consistent flour, water, yeast and temperatures, and measure by weight, we amateurs have mostly inconsistent ingredients and measure by volume, which can make things unpredictable. Mr. Lahey thinks imprecision isn't much of a handicap and, indeed, his method seems to iron out the wrinkles: ''I encourage a somewhat careless approach,'' he says, ''and figure this may even be a disappointment to those who expect something more difficult. The proof is in the loaf.''

The loaf is incredible, a fine-bakery quality, European-style boule that is produced more easily than by any other technique I've used, and will blow your mind. (It may yet change the industry. Mr. Lahey is experimenting with using it on a large scale, but although it requires far less electricity than conventional baking, it takes a lot of space and time.) It is best made with bread flour, but all-purpose flour works fine. (I've played with whole-wheat and rye flours, too; the results are fantastic.)

You or your 8-year-old may hit this perfectly on the first try, or you may not. Judgment is involved; with practice you'll get it right every time.

The baking itself is virtually foolproof, so the most important aspect is patience. Long, slow fermentation is critical. Mr. Lahey puts the time at 12 to 18 hours, but I have had much greater success at the longer time. If you are in a hurry, more yeast (three-eighths of a teaspoon) or a warmer room temperature may move things along, but really, once you're waiting 12 hours why not wait 18? Similarly, Mr. Lahey's second rising can take as little as an hour, but two hours, or even a little longer, works better.

Although even my ''failed'' loaves were as good as those from most bakeries, to make the loaf really sensational requires a bit of a commitment. But with just a little patience, you will be rewarded with the best no-work bread you have ever made. And that's no small thing.

No-Knead Bread
Adapted from Jim Lahey, Sullivan Street Bakery
Time: About 1 1/2 hours plus 14 to 20 hours' rising

3 cups all-purpose or bread flour, more for dusting
1/4 teaspoon instant yeast
1 1/4 teaspoons salt
Cornmeal or wheat bran as needed.

1. In a large bowl combine flour, yeast and salt. Add 1 5/8 cups water, and stir until blended; dough will be shaggy and sticky. Cover bowl with plastic wrap. Let dough rest at least 12 hours, preferably about 18, at warm room temperature, about 70 degrees.
2. Dough is ready when its surface is dotted with bubbles. Lightly flour a work surface and place dough on it; sprinkle it with a little more flour and fold it over on itself once or twice. Cover loosely with plastic wrap and let rest about 15 minutes.
3. Using just enough flour to keep dough from sticking to work surface or to your fingers, gently and quickly shape dough into a ball. Generously coat a cotton towel (not terry cloth) with flour, wheat bran or cornmeal; put dough seam side down on towel and dust with more flour, bran or cornmeal. Cover with another cotton towel and let rise for about 2 hours. When it is ready, dough will be more than double in size and will not readily spring back when poked with a finger.
4. At least a half-hour before dough is ready, heat oven to 450 degrees. Put a 6- to 8-quart heavy covered pot (cast iron, enamel, Pyrex or ceramic) in oven as it heats. When dough is ready, carefully remove pot from oven. Slide your hand under towel and turn dough over into pot, seam side up; it may look like a mess, but that is O.K. Shake pan once or twice if dough is unevenly distributed; it will straighten out as it bakes. Cover with lid and bake 30 minutes, then remove lid and bake another 15 to 30 minutes, until loaf is beautifully browned. Cool on a rack.

Yield: One 1 1/2-pound loaf.


Jim


Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: charbo on November 18, 2006, 05:30:38 PM
This process definitely worked for me.  My 4.5 qt Lecreuset pot might be a little small for the recipe.  If you want a boule, it’s the way to go.  By leaving the seam side up, no slashing is required.  However, I think one loses a little of the rise when dumping the risen dough into the hot pot. 

What about the implications for pizza?  I just made a flavorful pizza using less yeast and and allowing the dough to rise longer at a low room temp.  The pizza had virtually no kneading.  Using a spoon in one direction, I wet-mixed about 75% of the flour and all the water for 2-3 minutes, then incorporated the remaining flour over another 1-2 minutes. Then it rested for 25 minutes. I then folded in a little oil and turned the dough out on a floured board.  I kneaded by hand for about a minute, adding the salt, distributing the oil, and adding very little more flour.  The cooked pizza had the same rise as ones made with a traditional kneading.  It’s almost like mixing (stirring) is a very efficient way of kneading.

It seems I’ve wasted a lot of time kneading.  There is a book by Suzanne Dunaway called No Need to Knead which bears review.


Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: jimd on November 18, 2006, 06:25:35 PM
Per the immediately succeeding post, after reading about this technique and trying it, I did a little more research on the net about the "no knead" technique. I came across the book "No Knead Bread", and ordered it from Amazon. I think it is out of print, but differant resellers had copies in stock.

I started looking at it today and it is a lovely book. Easy to read and she is a total supporter of the no knead technique. The book has some great looking recipes that I can't wait to try. Her attitude is one of "just do it", and if you put some of your soul into it, your results will be great.

I will post more about my thoughts on the book and results with the recipes when I get a bit further into it.

Jim
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: MTPIZZA on November 18, 2006, 07:44:42 PM
The very high hydration is what makes this work for no knead... the stands of gluten align themselves apparantly very easily and don't require the kneading that a dense dough requires to for the gluten tough enough for the "great push" when baking... The steam and long proofing do the great rise. I have french videos showing the baguette techniques etc... very precise recipes and handling of the dough. In the videos during the dough process after proofing the dough... they instruct you to pour/dump out the dough from the container and pull or stretch the dough in one direction then fold it over onto itself thus aligning the gluten strands and making the dough even more resilient and pliable which gives that great chew with a light texture. Again this is all about how to handle the dough..
I do believe that when we plop the dough into the hot pot we do loose some of the light and airy consistency of the dough we so hard at trying to get to rise high with great flavor. I'm trying to look into using a low sided iron or ceramic pot where I can transfer the dough gently into the vessel without the "plop" from up high thus not deflating the dough from a high drop. Any suggestions would be great
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: deb415611 on November 18, 2006, 08:16:45 PM
Here is a good link.  Rose Levy Beranbaum (The Bread Bible) has baked the bread and written on her blog about it with pictures.  There are also many comments from her readers with questions about the bread that she has answered. 

http://www.realbakingwithrose.com/2006/11/holy_bread.html#more
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: MTPIZZA on November 19, 2006, 10:06:57 AM
This was a great link thanks for sharing...
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: tonymark on November 19, 2006, 11:04:11 PM
Here is my attempt.  1.5x recipe with 1/4 IDY and 2 Tbsp of camaldoli culture.  Cooked in Lodge cast iron dutch oven.  Next attempt with be with fresh ground whole wheat, white winter (i.e. white wheat).
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on November 19, 2006, 11:11:16 PM
TM,

Were you satisfied with the results?

Peter
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: tonymark on November 19, 2006, 11:21:33 PM
Were you satisfied with the results?

Yes, the bread was good.  I have recently been playing with a high hydration bread dough bake in a round cake pan.  So, this was on par with that except I did not have to inject the steam/water or knead the dough.  I made this for some family and friends and it was a big hit.  One of my guests took home the recipe and made their dough tonight!  I will make this bread regularly.

BTW, I think the IDY overshadowed the culture flavor.  Maybe I am spoiled and can no longer taste the culture, but I just could not detect it.  I usually use the Patsy's culture, which seems more sour and stronger in flavor.

TM
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: REMOISE on November 20, 2006, 05:28:36 AM
finally got it right although my crust separated from the bread due over rising because of 3 hours of rising time instead of 2 hours given in the recipe.Which I can avoid next time.It produce a great crust and good structure inside and remained moist.This time i threw into a blazing hot pot;I think the other time the pot was simply just not hot enough.This method for home bakers is really great.In other words wetter dough really does not need too much kneading time.Also The overnight fermantation at room temperature gives the bread or pizza the aroma and flavour.I suggest not cutting the bread until it cools of to avoid it getting gummy.Can anyone please help me how do i avoid the crust from cracking.I notice that when i remove a loaf from the oven and let it cool on a wire rack about 30 minutes later the crust starts to crack.help anyone please?
thanks,
Remoise
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: deb415611 on November 20, 2006, 07:27:29 AM
Here is my first attempt.  3/4 KASL & rest KA AP.  I used a silpat instead of towel on the bottom.  I think it helped with the transfer to the pan since the silpat was a little more stable than the towel.  I used 5 qt Simply Calphalon pot (Something heavier would have been better - LeCreuset will be on Xmas list)  I coated with semolina & sesame seeds.  Baked 450 for 30 min covered and about 10 min uncovered  - internal temp was 209.

It was good and definately a keeper but I want to experiment a little.  Holes were bigger farther into loaf.  I think yeast might be able to be cut down when making with white flour.  It was fully risen & bubbled after 10 hours (when I got up in am so I don't know how long it had been like that).  I let it go another 4 hours.

Next time I will make with white whole wheat.
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: deb415611 on November 20, 2006, 08:01:49 AM
The topic has also hit Peter Reinhart's blog. 

http://peterreinhart.typepad.com/

Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: fabio on November 22, 2006, 05:10:19 PM
Anyone care to guess how much starter I should use to be equivilent to a .25 teaspoon as this recipie calls for?  -marc

I would use about 12gr. Here's how I got to that:

1 packet of yeast ~= 2 cups of starter
1 packet of yeast ~= 1tbsp ~= 3tsp
each cup of starter weighs ~ 140gr
1/4 tsp ~= 0.0833 of a tablespoon
0.0833 tbsp of yeast * 140gr per cup = 11.67gr (make it an even 12)

As a starter is not nearly as fast as commercial yeast, give it more time to rise, at least 24 hours for this recipe (I think the recipe calls for 18?). Luckily you've made this with commercial yeast before, so you know how it is supposed to look when fully risen. I guarantee you it will make a chewier, tastier and fresh-for-longer-er bread. Not to mention an event better crumb.

Also, you should correct the recipe to take out the flour/water that you are adding via the starter. Although I don't think it will make any impact on this loose recipe with so little starter.

The pics look great by the way. I'm on a low-carb diet right now, so I hate you.   >:(

Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: tonymark on November 22, 2006, 07:27:20 PM
I am actually sick of pizza these days ... so here is more bread.

This is 1.5 the original recipe with extra salt.

637 g flour   (22.5 oz)  half KABF/half fresh ground White Winter Wheat
552 g water (19.5 oz)
2 t Morton's kosher salt
1 t vital wheat gluten
50 g of Camadoli starter

Rose about 17 hours at 67-72 F.  That includes the final 2 hours once folded.

Cooked at 450 F in Lodge cast iron dutch oven.

This bread had a very good sourdough bread flavor, but not the extreme sour I have achieved with other breads.


TM
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: AKSteve on November 23, 2006, 01:08:10 AM
I was about to ask if you made a mistake in the amount of water you used, as it's around 86.5% hydration. But I just made my own batch of 50% KABF / 50% Arrowhead Mills whole wheat bread flour and I had to add quite a bit of water to the mix to get it to the right consistency. I started off with 75% water and probably wound up at around the same % as you did. The first time I tried this, I followed the recipe as written and wound up with soupy batter that was really hard to work with. This time I made 2 loafs, one as mentioned above and one with all KABF. For the 2nd one, I used 1lb (454 grams) of KABF and a little over 340g of water (just over 75% hydration).

I'm going to follow the recommendation to place the towel over a pan with edges for the 2nd rise. This is to keep things from spreading out beyond the diameter of the cooking pot and also to force the dough to rise upward. I'm also going to put a little less flour on the towel before I dump the dough onto it. I wound up with way too much flour all over my bread once it was in the pan.

Steve
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: sanrensho on November 23, 2006, 01:56:30 AM
I know that Sullivan Street makes a potato pizza with dough that's nearlly 100% hydrated. My poolish is 100% hydrated and I've noticed that when pouring it out of its container, the gluten is very well developed. I guess I will give this a try as well!
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: pizzanapoletana on November 23, 2006, 07:22:00 AM
I would like to put just some caution around this just because this thread sits in the Neapolitan section (Steve-Peter should it sit here in the first place?)

A high hydration Neapolitan dough would probably be sitting at around 37% in the same parameters. Taking into account the mobility of the gluten forming proteins in high hydration dough, this shouldn't happen as easily as with 5 point more hydration and however it is very limited. Also the quantity and quality of the gluten are a factors and what McGee states would not give the same results with all quality of flours. Also McGee's answer may be taken out of context without exploring other factors, such as while the long time give the chance to the Gluten forming protein to move and interact , at the same time enzymes will be working on the gluten already formed, therefore some will be forming and some other will be breaking.....
 It is very important to point out that two flours at 12% proteins may have different quantities of gluten in it (not all the proteins in the flour are gluten forming).

To summaries this is a typical example whereby what works in Breadmaking will not work in Pizzamaking...

thanks for the attention
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: AKSteve on December 01, 2006, 07:27:53 AM
I wonder if this bread could be parbaked and frozen? Maybe removing the loaves from the oven after the initial 20 minute covered bake, then cooling, then freezing. I love the bread, I just don't like that you have to plan on making it so far in advance. I'd like to maybe parbake 4 or 5 of them and then thaw them on the days that I feel like serving them with dinner. Is there any way it could possibly still be crispy after thawing and cooking for another 30 minutes uncovered?

Steve
Title: No Kneading, but Some Fine-Tuning
Post by: mmarston on December 06, 2006, 09:34:02 AM
December 6, 2006

THE MINIMALIST
No Kneading, but Some Fine-Tuning
By MARK BITTMAN

LAST month I wrote about Jim Lahey, the owner of Sullivan Street Bakery on West 47th Street in Manhattan, and his clever way to produce a European-style boule at home. Mr. Lahey’s recipe calls for very little yeast, a wet dough, long rising times and baking in a closed, preheated pot. My results with Mr. Lahey’s method have been beyond satisfying.

Happily, so have those of most readers. In the last few weeks Jim Lahey’s recipe has been translated into German, baked in Togo, discussed on more than 200 blogs and written about in other newspapers. It has changed the lives (their words, not mine) of veteran and novice bakers. It has also generated enough questions to warrant further discussion here. The topics are more or less in the order of the quantity of inquiries.

WEIGHT VS. VOLUME The original recipe contained volume measures, but for those who prefer to use weight, here are the measurements: 430 grams of flour, 345 grams of water, 1 gram of yeast and 8 grams of salt. With experience, many people will stop measuring altogether and add just enough water to make the dough almost too wet to handle.

SALT Many people, me included, felt Mr. Lahey’s bread was not salty enough. Yes, you can use more salt and it won’t significantly affect the rising time. I’ve settled at just under a tablespoon.

YEAST Instant yeast, called for in the recipe, is also called rapid-rise yeast. But you can use whatever yeast you like. Active dry yeast can be used without proofing (soaking it to make sure it’s active)
.
TIMING About 18 hours is the preferred initial rising time. Some readers have cut this to as little as eight hours and reported little difference. I have not had much luck with shorter times, but I have gone nearly 24 hours without a problem. Room temperature will affect the rising time, and so will the temperature of the water you add (I start with tepid). Like many other people, I’m eager to see what effect warmer weather will have. But to those who have moved the rising dough around the room trying to find the 70-degree sweet spot: please stop. Any normal room temperature is fine. Just wait until you see bubbles and well-developed gluten — the long strands that cling to the sides of the bowl when you tilt it — before proceeding.

THE SECOND RISE Mr. Lahey originally suggested one to two hours, but two to three is more like it, in my experience. (Ambient temperatures in the summer will probably knock this time down some.) Some readers almost entirely skipped this rise, shaping the dough after the first rise and letting it rest while the pot and oven preheat; this is worth trying, of course.

OTHER FLOURS Up to 30 percent whole-grain flour works consistently and well, and 50 percent whole-wheat is also excellent. At least one reader used 100 percent whole-wheat and reported “great crust but somewhat inferior crumb,” which sounds promising. I’ve kept rye, which is delicious but notoriously impossible to get to rise, to about 20 percent. There is room to experiment.

FLAVORINGS The best time to add caraway seeds, chopped olives, onions, cheese, walnuts, raisins or whatever other traditional bread flavorings you like is after you’ve mixed the dough. But it’s not the only time; you can fold in ingredients before the second rising.

OTHER SHAPES Baguettes in fish steamers, rolls in muffin tins or classic loaves in loaf pans: if you can imagine it, and stay roughly within the pattern, it will work.

COVERING BETWEEN RISES A Silpat mat under the dough is a clever idea (not mine). Plastic wrap can be used as a top layer in place of a second towel.

THE POT The size matters, but not much. I have settled on a smaller pot than Mr. Lahey has, about three or four quarts. This produces a higher loaf, which many people prefer — again, me included. I’m using cast iron. Readers have reported success with just about every available material. Note that the lid handles on Le Creuset pots can only withstand temperatures up to 400 degrees. So avoid using them, or remove the handle first.

BAKING You can increase the initial temperature to 500 degrees for more rapid browning, but be careful; I scorched a loaf containing whole-wheat flour by doing this. Yes, you can reduce the length of time the pot is covered to 20 minutes from 30, and then increase the time the loaf bakes uncovered. Most people have had a good experience baking for an additional 30 minutes once the pot is uncovered.
As these answers demonstrate, almost everything about Mr. Lahey’s bread is flexible, within limits. As we experiment, we will have failures. (Like the time I stopped adding flour because the phone rang, and didn’t realize it until 18 hours later. Even this, however, was reparable). This method is going to have people experimenting, and largely succeeding, until something better comes along. It may be quite a while.
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: apizza on December 06, 2006, 07:46:36 PM
mmarston, thanks for the update.
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: amishland on December 07, 2006, 11:50:11 PM
8) This recipe intrigued me....easy and no fuss, using basic ingredients, and allowing time and mother nature do their thing. 8)

After dinner tonight i mixed: 3 C King Arthur Bread flour
                                              !/4 t Fleischman's Rapid Rise Yeast
                                              11/4 t Mortons Kosher Salt
                                              13 oz. tepid water

Mixed the dry ingredients in the KA with dough hook at lowest setting, then slowly added water, and let mix for a few minutes at lowest mixer speed setting.  Removed dough hook, covered bowl with stretch wrap.

Was covered at 8:30 p.m., so should be ready for final forming and rise around 3:00 p,m,.

I haven't decided on the baking vessel yet, but I'm leaning toward my crockpot ceramic insert, possibly my CI Dutch oven....will depend on how big the dough grows...

I'll report my results, hopefully with pictures if my camera guy pulls through.

This is fun.... :-D




Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: AKSteve on December 16, 2006, 05:06:56 PM
Just for fun, I decided to bake one of my larger dough balls in the same cooking style as this just to test if the results would come out similar. It's a 63% hydration dough, with a little bit of wheat flour as well as some honey & olive oil. My reason for trying this is that I think one of the main reasons the "no knead" bread turns out so good is because of the steam from the enclosed cooking area. I haven't tasted the results yet, but the exterior feels every bit as crispy as the "no knead" recipe. And because of the wheat and honey, my bread has a nicer color. I  cooked it the same (30 minutes covered, 20 uncovered). But I lowered the temp to 400° for the last 20 minutes because I thought the honey might make it brown too much. It's my best looking bread so far.


Steve
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: MTPIZZA on December 17, 2006, 10:09:00 AM
Steve, are you saying that you used a pizza recipe dough and added the honey and oil, but this dough WAS kneaded. Then baked in a closed pot to get these results.... great looking bread!! PLease explain..thanks..
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: AKSteve on December 17, 2006, 02:47:22 PM
Exactly. I didn't follow the no-knead recipe at all with this bread. It's my regular pizza dough recipe. I did about a 4 minute mix, a 15 minute rest, and then another 4 or 5 minutes of kneading. This dough ball sat in the fridge for 3 days before I decided to make bread with it. I've baked bread with pizza dough before and I've gotten decent results. I usually slash a crosshatch on the top of the dough and just slide it onto a pizza stone for about 45 minutes, placing a pan of water under the stone for some steam. The crust would be a little bit crispy, but not as good as in the no knead recipe.

I figured the crusty exterior of the no knead bread came from the trapped steam in the enclosed cooking device. So I just decided to cook my regular old pizza dough the same way and I wound up getting the same crusty exterior. Plus it was a lot easier to manage the dough this way. I did let it rise on a covered cotton cloth for a few hours after I took it out of the fridge. I slashed the surface of the dough with a razor right after I opened up the zip lock container it was in. Then I dumped it on a floured cloth, sprinkled some more flour on top of it, and covered it with another cloth.

Honestly, pizza dough is rather versatile. I've made great breadsticks with it. I know you can make pretzels with it. Great pizza, of course. I've even made little rings and dropped them in the deep fryer to make pretty good zeppole doughnuts. I had made really good bread with it in the past, and now I've made great bread. :-)

Steve
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: MTPIZZA on December 18, 2006, 09:29:27 AM
Thanks for the explanation, I was wondering myself why not pizza dough using this technique. It looks like your cooking vessel was some sort of ceramic pot..maybe from a crockpot. I'm going to experiment using two glass pyrex containers one is a lid but they are'nt as deep as a pot. So when I heat them up and drop the dough in it won't be as high a drop so the dough shouldn't deflate as much.
I feel this is the only draw back with the no knead technique was after letting your dough rise to turn it over and plop it down into the pot which deflates the great rise you are trying to attain. Also was thinking about just putting the dough into a cool pot and place it in the oven, perhaps the slow gradual heating of the pot would produce a higher lighter rise..we shall see...
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: mmarston on December 18, 2006, 10:17:36 AM
Has anyone tried letting the second rise happen in the pot and then putting it in the oven cold?
Getting this wet sticky dough into the hot pot is always exciting to say the least. I bought a silicone mat expecting the dough to fall right off but it
the stuff sticks to that as well. Anyone have tips for getting the dough into the pot?
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: deb415611 on December 18, 2006, 02:00:49 PM
Has anyone tried letting the second rise happen in the pot and then putting it in the oven cold?
Getting this wet sticky dough into the hot pot is always exciting to say the least. I bought a silicone mat expecting the dough to fall right off but it
the stuff sticks to that as well. Anyone have tips for getting the dough into the pot?

I used semolina & sesame seeds on the silpat - see here  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4114.msg34893.html#msg34893  and had no problem with it sticking to the silpat.  The semolina doesn't get absorbed into the bread like flour does.  I was reading Rose Levy Berenbaum's blog yesterday and I think she recommends bran instead of flour.   

 I have not tried it with a cold pot but don't think that you would get the same rise and that it might to the pot. 
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: MTPIZZA on December 18, 2006, 02:50:10 PM
You can try this trick... if you think your dough is sticking get a piece of dental floss and run the floss between the dough and the silpat...it will cut/release the dough with enough time to flip/remove the dough with confidence.. Or as suggested just put a thick layer of dried flour/bran...etc.. down first
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: rxrfrx on January 30, 2007, 07:22:52 PM
Has anyone tried letting the second rise happen in the pot and then putting it in the oven cold?
I tried this and the bread stuck worse than anything I've ever experienced before.  This was in a virtually stick-proof antique enameled dutch oven.  I had to cut the top part of the bread from the stuck bottom crust and soak the pot overnight.
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: mmarston on January 30, 2007, 07:35:16 PM
I had another thought. I'm going to try putting the dough on a heated stone and cover it with a heated pot.
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Essie on March 10, 2007, 11:59:03 PM
I have made several loaves with great success, but my last was a disaster. I used cornmeal in the bottom of my LC Dutch Oven, but the bread stuck. I had to really work to get it out and I messed up the appearance. ???
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 19, 2007, 12:23:04 PM
One of my favorite breads that I purchase from Jim Lahey’s Sullivan Street Bakery to bring back to Texas with me whenever I visit New York City is their walnut-raisin loaf. It is a round, dark, fairly flat loaf with a good amount of chopped walnuts and raisins and what appears to be a faint taste of cinnamon. Like the bakery’s other breads, it is based on using organic flour, water, a natural starter, salt and yeast (commercial). Although I had not tried the No Knead dough method before, I decide to try to replicate the walnut-raisin-cinnamon loaf using a modified form of that method. I also decided that I would use only a natural starter for leavening purposes and, for this purpose, I resurrected my Camaldoli starter that had lain dormant in my refrigerator for several months.

I started by using the weight measurements that appeared in Reply 43 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4114.msg35679.html#msg35679. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4114.msg35679.html#msg35679.) Then, using the new preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html, (http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html,) I calculated the ingredients I would need to make the basic dough based on a starter (the Camaldoli starter) used at 20% of the total formula flour and having a water content at 60%. To compensate for expected dough losses in the bowl, I used a bowl residue factor of 5%. I ended up with the following dough formulation:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (80.2326%):
Salt (1.86046%):
Total (182.09306%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Total:

451.5 g  |  15.93 oz | 1 lbs
362.25 g  |  12.78 oz | 0.8 lbs
8.4 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
822.15 g | 29 oz | 1.81 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
36.12 g | 1.27 oz | 0.08 lbs
54.18 g | 1.91 oz | 0.12 lbs
90.3 g | 3.19 oz | 0.2 lbs

 
415.38 g | 14.65 oz | 0.92 lbs
308.07 g | 10.87 oz | 0.68 lbs
8.4 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
90.3 g | 3.19 oz | 0.2 lbs
822.15 g | 29 oz | 1.81 lbs  | TF = N/A

In the course of preparing the dough, I made several changes to the basic No Knead method. First, I used organic all-purpose flour. In my case it was the King Arthur "Artisan" organic all-purpose flour, and it was sifted before using. Second, I replaced part of the formula flour with vital wheat gluten (Hodgson Mills brand) in order to increase the protein content of the all-purpose flour to a bread flour level (12.7%) and to hopefully increase the volume rise of the dough to compensate for the leadening effects of the addition of a fair amount of chopped walnuts and raisins to the dough. I used November’s Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ (http://foodsim.toastguard.com/) to apportion the total flour between the KA organic flour and the vital wheat gluten. The amount of VWG was about 8 grams, or approximately 3 teaspoons.

Third, I used a more or less classic autolyse, with a rest period of about 20 minutes after the VWG was whisked into the water in a large bowl and the bulk of the flour had been mixed together in the bowl, using a sturdy wooden spoon. I followed these steps with the addition of the starter (about 5 T. and 1 t.), a tablespoon of nondiastatic barley malt syrup (Eden brand), the remaining flour, and the salt. The barley malt syrup was used to provide a bit of sweetness to the finished loaf and to help increase the browning of the crust to achieve the characteristic dark brown color of the Sullivan Street Bakery walnut-raisin loaf. The syrup would also produce a darker colored crumb as is also characteristic of the Sullivan Street Bakery walnut-raisin loaf.

Once the dough was complete, I put it into a lightly covered container and then into my ThermoKool MR-138 unit, set at 75° F (for a typical photo of the unit, see http://www.focususa.com/showpage.asp?categoryid=14&category=personalcare&subcategoryid=275&subcategory=travel&itemid=2953&template=product_info.htm (http://www.focususa.com/showpage.asp?categoryid=14&category=personalcare&subcategoryid=275&subcategory=travel&itemid=2953&template=product_info.htm)). Since my Camaldoli starter was still a bit on the weak side after several months in the refrigerator, I did not know how long it would take for the dough to rise and develop bubbling at the upper surface of the dough to tell me to proceed to the next step. In my case, it took about 28 hours, with the bulk of the activity taking place in the final few hours. I would estimate that the dough increased by about 50-60%. The dough was then brought to my work area and I kneaded about one teaspoon of ground cinnamon into the dough, which was very soft and wet at this stage, along with about 3 ounces of chopped walnuts and 7 ounces of raisins. The cinnamon was added at this stage rather than earlier because I had read that there is a component of cinnamon, cynnamic aldehyde, that can adversely affect yeast performance. The chopped walnuts and raisins were worked into the dough using a pair of bench knives (a.k.a. bench scrapers) only. Because the dough was very wet, especially before I added the walnuts and raisins, whenever I felt I had to touch the dough to shape it a bit, I used wet hands so that the dough wouldn't stick to my fingers. 

To bake the loaf, I decided not to use the method used most commonly with the No Knead dough but rather to use my baking stone, and to bake the loaf on parchment paper. This is a method that I believe Rose Levy Berenbaum mentioned in her blog on the No Knead topic, and to me seems to be a more sure way of handling and baking the dough than using the types of baking utensils and associated dough handling methods discussed by those who have experimented with the No Knead method. In lieu of the bran flakes that Sullivan Street Bakery appears to use on the bottom of their walnut-raisin dough before baking, I used a seven-grain mix that was the closest I had to the bran flakes, but which appears to include bran flakes as part of the mix. I scattered some of the grain mix on a piece of parchment paper, which had been put on my peel, and deposited the wet dough mass on the parchment paper for the final 3-hour rise period.

About an hour before the conclusion of that period, I preheated my baking stone on the middle oven rack position for about an hour at 500° F. At the same time, I placed a pie tin filled with stones on the lowest oven rack position so that they would also heat up along with the stone. Just prior to loading the dough into the oven, I poured water into the tin with the stones to create a moist oven environment for the dough. After loading the dough into the oven, I lowered the oven temperature to 450° F, and for a couple of times thereafter within the next five minutes, I spritzed the sides of the oven with a spray water bottle. The bread was baked for about 35-40 minutes, or until the center was at a temperature of around 206° F.

The photos below show the finished loaf--top, bottom, and cross-sectional views. It had very nice color and was very tasty with well balanced flavors. The baked loaf weighed about 2 pounds 4 ounces and very much resembled the Sullivan Street Bakery loaf in just about all respects, except that it was quite a bit larger. I will most likely tinker with the formulation in future efforts in search for improvement. For example, I might use more cinnamon, barley malt syrup, and nuts and raisins, and possibly try out dried cranberries or cherries. And I may play around with the amount and type of starter used and fermentation temperatures. If I can find a relatively easy and convenient way to use my large oval Creuset pot, I may try that also.

Peter
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: November on April 19, 2007, 12:29:24 PM
Peter,

I wouldn't mind having a slice of that for breakfast.

- red.november
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 19, 2007, 01:15:23 PM
I wouldn't mind having a slice of that for breakfast.

November,

For me, the hardest part is limiting myself to just one slice.

As I reported on another thread some time ago, Sullivan Street Bakery uses a bit of IDY in their doughs in addition to their natural starter. I thought of doing the same but when I have done that in the past, I lose too much (in some cases, all) of the sourdough flavor. There must be commercial reasons why Sullivan Street Bakery uses both forms of yeast, like shortening the fermentation period or as an insurance policy in case the starter doesn't behave as desired.

Peter
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Bill/SFNM on April 19, 2007, 03:34:20 PM
Peter,

Marvelous job! One of my favorite breads, but I have always failed in my attempts to make it without commercial yeast - always too dense. I will definitely try your approach soon. Thanks!

BTW, what is the humidty of your Thermocool as compared to ambient relative humidty?

Bill/SFNM
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 19, 2007, 04:36:27 PM
Bill,

Thank you. Breads with a lot of things in them are likely to be on the dense side in general. That was one of the reasons why I used an autolyse and added some vital wheat gluten. In retrospect, maybe I should added even more VWG since that is sometimes recommended for even high protein flours, including whole wheat flour. I noticed that Nancy Silverton, in her book Breads from the La Brea Bakery, uses fresh yeast in some of her doughs to which a lot of things are added. She also uses much more starter than I did--something close to 35% by weight of flour for a basic white sourdough loaf if memory serves me correct. She also cautioned against adding walnuts to a dough early in the process because of chemical reactions with the walnuts that can result in a crumb with an unattractive purple color. That's why I tried to leave as much out of the dough as possible until the last minute (just before the final rise). I even wondered about doing the same with the barley malt syrup but I figured it would be food for the yeast and shouldn't hurt anything. Plus, it's easier to blend the syrup into the dough when it is wet. In many respects, I felt like I was "engineering" a dough rather than "making" it  ;D.

I'm afraid I don't have an answer to your question on humidity. November may have the answer to that question since he also has a ThermoKool unit (he's the one who brought it to my attention) and I believe he has been running some tests on his unit.

Peter
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Bryan S on April 30, 2007, 05:26:38 PM
Here's a sourdough version i found at sourdoughs international.

NO-KNEAD SOURDOUGH

After Mark Bittman's feature in the New York Times (November 8, 2006) on Jim Lahey's no-knead bread, I received many inquires asking if it is possible to make no-knead sourdough. It took just one look at Lahey's recipe to focus on the 12 hour "rest". It seemed pretty obvious.  Lactobacilli in a sourdough culture "fermenting" for 12 hours should produce a far better flavor than ¼ teaspoon of instant yeast and no lactobacilli. It is only necessary to modify the recipe for the extra flour and water added by the sourdough culture. Here's what it looks like.

Recipe (see note)
Produces one 1½ pound loaf
1 cup fully active sourdough culture
440 grams (3 cups) all-purpose or bread flour, more for dusting
1 cup water
1½ teaspoons salt
 

1) In a large bowl briefly combine sourdough culture, flour, water and salt.  The consistency should be very firm and shaggy.  Cover bowl with plastic wrap and proof 12-18 hours at about 70° F.  At 70-75 degrees the bread leavens well and has the distinct sourness and flavor of sourdough.  At more than 75 degrees the dough becomes too acidic which inhibits the wild yeast and leavens poorly. At much less than 70 degrees the dough leavens well but has a mild flavor.
 
2) After the 12-18 hour fermentation this is very sticky dough. Use a plastic spatula to ease it away from the edges of the bowl onto a lightly floured board.  Sprinkle the surface with additional flour and let the dough rest 15 minutes or so.
 
3) With minimal handling and additional flour (not more than ¼ cup) form a ball which is placed directly in the baking container to rise (or placed between cotton cloths as described by Lahey) and proofed until ready to bake, double in bulk (about 4 hours).  The baking container can be almost any small covered pot (avoid willow baskets since the sticky dough is difficult to remove).
 
4) Lahey bakes the dough in an oven and container both preheated to 450° for approximately 1 hour. To obtain better oven spring place the risen dough in its container in a cool oven, set the oven at 450°, turn it on and bake for approximately 1 hour and 10 minutes.  You will never knead a better sourdough!

Note:  In developing the above recipe, I used our Original San Francisco culture. There are several additional recipes for no-knead sourdoughs in the section on batter breads in Classic Sourdoughs.
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 30, 2007, 11:47:45 PM
Brian,

As I understand what you posted, Ed Wood adds one cup of starter to 440 grams of all-purpose flour, one cup of water, and 1 ½ teaspoons salt. I assume that one can use either the liquid starter or the sponge starter as he describes them in his book, although using the latter will require using less flour in the final mix in order to compensate for the lower water content of the sponge starter. On the assumption that he means using the liquid starter which, according to the appendix in his book, weighs around 9 ounces for a cup and has a water content of 52%, I was able to calculate the baker’s percents and total dough batch weight and to run the numbers through the new Preferment calculating tool. By so doing, I came up with the following:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (65.6493%):
Salt (1.4844%):
Total (167.1337%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Total:

562.49 g  |  19.84 oz | 1.24 lbs
369.27 g  |  13.03 oz | 0.81 lbs
8.35 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
940.1 g | 33.16 oz | 2.07 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
122.52 g | 4.32 oz | 0.27 lbs
132.73 g | 4.68 oz | 0.29 lbs
255.26 g | 9 oz | 0.56 lbs

 
439.96 g | 15.52 oz | 0.97 lbs
236.53 g | 8.34 oz | 0.52 lbs
8.35 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
255.26 g | 9 oz | 0.56 lbs
940.1 g | 33.16 oz | 2.07 lbs  | TF = N/A

Although not indicated in the above data, the amount of starter used is 45.38% of the weight of the total formula flour. That amount appears to be typical for a sourdough bread. Interestingly, the total hydration is around 66%, which appears to be quite a bit lower than what others have been using when making the No Knead dough. Ed normally uses around 58% total hydration as his ideal figure.

You will also note that the amount of salt was not increased from the original 1 ½ teaspoons. That means that the percent of salt went down (to about 1.48%) once the salt-less starter was added to the remaining ingredients. So, if one wishes to retain the original baker’s percent for salt, I would use around 1.9%. The above data do not reflect any adjustments for dough losses during preparation. However, since the starter was added to an already existing dough formulation, any losses will not materially affect the final results.

Peter
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: fazzari on October 13, 2007, 03:12:20 PM
I've been playing around with the no knead method to make pizza for the last month now.  I started with a 24 hour fermentation and worked up to 36 hours.  Although the pizza was very flavorfull it wasn't what I was looking for...so I tried some modifications.  I now ferment for 24 to 32 hours, but I fold the dough about 4 times during this period.  It gives the dough much better body, it is very easy to work with, and has a fabulous texture when cooked in a deck oven...in fact, its one of the best I've ever tasted.

The interesting thing about this process is:  It would be very, very easy to make huge batches even if you only used your hands to mix.  The original mix time on my kitchenaid is only about 4 minutes, so I can't imagine it taking much more that 8 to 10 minutes by hand.  And the folding is a 30 second process at most..  I know it's not no Knead...but it's pretty close to great pizza with no work at all!!

Hi gluten flour   100%
Water               66%
Olive oil              3%
Instant yeast       extremely small pinch   (sorry, I didn't have ability to weigh this)
salt                    2%

John
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: mmarston on December 07, 2007, 10:22:42 AM
I finally got around to trying a different method for baking this bread. I was looking for a way to avoid the always exciting task of picking up the very wet dough and trying to drop it into a very hot pot without making a mess out of it or burning myself.

I preheated the oven with a pizza stone in the lower part of the oven and an uncovered dutch oven on a rack above it.

When the dough was ready to bake I put it  on a peel with parchment paper, slid it onto the stone and covered it with the upside down pot. Baked as usual removing the pot for the last 15 min or so.

Worked like a charm!
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: MTPIZZA on December 08, 2007, 09:00:39 AM
Has anyone tried just putting the final dough into a cool pot and a hot oven. Again avoiding burning ones hands and deflating the dough when it plops into the hot pot. I would think that if you just shape the final dough and put it into a cool pot for the final rise, then put it into a hot oven, you would not burn yourself or make a mess with flour flying all over, plus get a slow nice rise as the pot heats up -- thus resulting in a lighter airier final result... any thoughts? I haven't tried my theory yet..
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Bill/SFNM on December 08, 2007, 09:07:47 AM
Has anyone tried just putting the final dough into a cool pot and a hot oven. Again avoiding burning ones hands and deflating the dough when it plops into the hot pot. I would think that if you just shape the final dough and put it into a cool pot for the final rise, then put it into a hot oven, you would not burn yourself or make a mess with flour flying all over, plus get a slow nice rise as the pot heats up -- thus resulting in a lighter airier final result... any thoughts? I haven't tried my theory yet..
I'm just speculating since I am firmly in the "yes-knead" school of bread making, but I think the formation of the crust would be negatively affected. There is a delicate balance between retarding crust formation to give the crumb plenty of time to expand vs. giving the outside enough heat to dry out and form a thin, crispy crust.

Bill/SFNM


Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: mmarston on December 09, 2007, 11:10:29 AM
Post 61 describes a method of baking the bread starting with a cool pot and oven.
Has anyone tried this?
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Bryan S on December 20, 2007, 12:26:53 AM
Post 61 describes a method of baking the bread starting with a cool pot and oven.
Has anyone tried this?
Not with the no knead dough but I have used this method before with regular bread dough recipes. It gives you a little more rise out of the dough.
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: bsherrill on December 20, 2007, 08:07:11 AM
Well, this is my first post guys.  After lurking and learning from all of you for months (and making great pizzas also), I thought you might like this recipe and tips on no-knead bread from Cooks Illustrated and how they do it.  Be sure to check out their method of transferring the bread to the hot container, as this solves a lot of problems.  Bread is my other love, besides pizza and slow smoked BBQ, and this no knead recipe is much more flavorable than the original, in my opinion (plus a LOT easier to work with), so I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

Ben

No-Knead Bread 2.0

Written: Jan 2008
 
A no-fuss recipe that is revolutionizing home baking trades flavor and reliability for ease. Could we improve the bread's bland taste and make it rise high every time?

The Problem: A no-knead approach to bread baking can produce loaves that look like they've been baked in a professional bakery, but the bread varies in size and shape and the crumb lacks the complex yeasty, tangy flavor of a true artisanal loaf.

The Goal: We loved the ease of this approach and the extraordinary crust on the bread, but we wanted our loaves to have a consistent shape and deeper flavor.

The Solution: No-knead bread is easy because it eliminates kneading, the mechanical process that forms the gluten (a strong network of cross-linked proteins that traps air bubbles and stretches as the dough bakes) necessary for bread structure. Our starting recipe (first published in the New York Times) uses two approaches to replace kneading: a very high hydration level (85 percent—meaning that for every 10 ounces of flour, there are 8.5 ounces of water) and a 12-hour autolysis period that allows the flour to hydrate and rest, (see "What is Autolysis" for further discussion). A preheated Dutch oven creates a humid environment that gives the loaf a dramatic opened crumb structure and shatteringly crisp crust, (see "Baking in a Dutch Oven" for a full explanation of how this works). However, we found two significant problems: the loaf often deflated when carried to the pot, causing misshapen loaves, and the loaf lacked flavor. We first needed to give the dough more strength. We did so by lowering the hydration and giving the bread the bare minimum of kneading time (15 seconds) to compensate. We also figured out a way to transfer the bread without doing any harm. To solve the lack of flavor, we needed to introduce two elements that a starter adds to artisan breads: an acidic tang and a shot of yeasty flavor. White vinegar generated the tang and a mild-flavored lager contributed yeastiness, see "How Beer Boosts Bread's Flavor", See links to related articles in the right-hand column.

 Almost No-Knead Bread 
An enameled cast-iron Dutch oven with a tight-fitting lid yields best results, but the recipe also works in a regular cast-iron Dutch oven or heavy stockpot. Use a mild-flavored lager, such as Budweiser (mild non-alcoholic lager also works). The bread is best eaten the day it is baked but can be wrapped in aluminum foil and stored in a cool, dry place for up to 2 days.

Makes 1 large round loaf

3   cups unbleached all-purpose flour (15 ounces), plus additional for dusting work surface
1/4   teaspoon instant or rapid-rise yeast 
1 1/2   teaspoons table salt 
3/4   cup plus 2 tablespoons water (7 ounces), at room temperature
1/4   cup plus 2 tablespoons mild-flavored lager (3 ounces)
1   tablespoon white vinegar 

1. Whisk flour, yeast, and salt in large bowl. Add water, beer, and vinegar. Using rubber spatula, fold mixture, scraping up dry flour from bottom of bowl until shaggy ball forms. Cover bowl with plastic wrap and let sit at room temperature for 8 to 18 hours.

2. Lay 12- by 18-inch sheet of parchment paper inside 10-inch skillet and spray with nonstick cooking spray. Transfer dough to lightly floured work surface and knead 10 to 15 times. Shape dough into ball by pulling edges into middle. Transfer dough, seam-side down, to parchment-lined skillet and spray surface of dough with nonstick cooking spray. Cover loosely with plastic wrap and let rise at room temperature until dough has doubled in size and does not readily spring back when poked with finger, about 2 hours.

3. About 30 minutes before baking, adjust oven rack to lowest position, place 6- to 8-quart heavy-bottomed Dutch oven (with lid) on rack, and heat oven to 500 degrees. Lightly flour top of dough and, using razor blade or sharp knife, make one 6-inch-long, 1/2-inch-deep slit along top of dough. Carefully remove pot from oven and remove lid. Pick up dough by lifting parchment overhang and lower into pot (let any excess parchment hang over pot edge). Cover pot and place in oven. Reduce oven temperature to 425 degrees and bake covered for 30 minutes. Remove lid and continue to bake until loaf is deep brown and instant-read thermometer inserted into center registers 210 degrees, 20 to 30 minutes longer. Carefully remove bread from pot; transfer to wire rack and cool to room temperature, about 2 hours.
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: sourdough girl on December 20, 2007, 01:50:45 PM
Thanks for posting the Cook's Illustrated recipe, bsherrill (you beat me to it!) and welcome to the forums!

I tried this recipe almost as soon as my copy of the magazine arrived in my mailbox!  I have a large Le Creuset dutch oven (12+ lbs!) that worked perfectly.  The bread had great oven spring and browned beautifully.  With the addition of beer and vinegar, it was flavorful but not as tangy as a true sourdough.  Not a big surprise considering there's no culture used.  I was very happy with the results and am going to make another loaf for our traditional Christmas Eve dinner... bouillabaisse!  Slathered with garlic butter and stuck under the broiler, it will make a great replacement for the usual french bread we use to sop up the soup!

The parchment paper technique worked well... I was very pleased with that solution!  I will take a picture of the next loaf and add it to this thread.  I have not tried putting dough into a cold pot or oven, but might try that after the holidays to see what the differences might be.

~sd
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: mmarston on January 09, 2008, 04:26:48 PM
I just tried this new recipe today and it is definitely a superior method. The parchment trick is the best.
I added an ounce of water to bring the hydration closer to the original. The bread was was much more ball shaped than my previous attempts.

Michael
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on October 03, 2008, 06:18:51 PM
There is an update at the New York Times on the No-Knead dough, at http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/08/dining/08mini.html.

October 8, 2008
The Minimalist
No-Knead Bread: Not Making Itself Yet, but a Lot Quicker
By MARK BITTMAN

WHEN I first wrote about Jim Lahey’s no-knead bread almost two years ago, I could not have predicted its immediate and wild popularity. How many novices it attracted to bread baking is anyone’s guess. But certainly there were plenty of existing bread bakers who excitedly tried it, liked it and immediately set about trying to improve it.

I was among them. I wondered how the recipe of Mr. Lahey, who owns the Sullivan Street Bakery, could be made faster (it calls for 14 to 20 hours’ rising time) and with a higher percentage of whole grain.

Improving on its texture and taste, with my limited patience, energy and equipment, seemed impossible. Besides, I was satisfied with the consistent results of the original, so why mess around?

Still, there was the issue of time. I like the leisurely pace of Mr. Lahey’s bread, but I can’t always plan so far ahead. Getting the start-to-finish time down to a few hours seemed worth a try and, really, the solution was simple: use more yeast.

I knew Mr. Lahey wouldn’t approve of this, because he believes that the best bread is fermented slowly, with a minimum of yeast. But my shortcut recipe here, which requires just four and half hours’ rising, if not quite as good as the original, can be done in an afternoon. I now make it regularly.

Changing the profile of the bread’s ingredients proved to be a real challenge. I like a white bread with a shattering crust as much as the next person, but there are many good reasons to eat real whole grain bread at least part of the time. After much experimenting, mess and disappointment, I found that a real whole grain bread could indeed be produced without kneading. The crust has toughness but not the real crispness that is the trademark of breads containing most or all white flour.

The process requires a standard loaf pan or the bread will not rise. The result is wonderful: you can use 100 percent whole grains, you can vary their percentages all you want (though all-rye bread doesn’t rise much at all) and you can add nongrain flours, sweeteners or dairy pretty much at will. If the proportions of liquid, solid and yeast stay the same, the timing and results will be fairly consistent.

I haven’t shown this bread to Mr. Lahey, who, in fairness, has been encouraging. It’s likely that when he gets around to producing a whole grain loaf, it’ll be better than mine. But I don’t think it could be easier.

Recipe
Speedy No-Knead Bread
Time: About 1 hour, plus 4 1/2 hours’ resting


3 cups bread flour

1 packet ( 1/4 ounce) instant yeast

1 1/2 teaspoons salt

Oil as needed.


1. Combine flour, yeast and salt in a large bowl. Add 1 1/2 cups water and stir until blended; dough will be shaggy. Cover bowl with plastic wrap. Let dough rest about 4 hours at warm room temperature, about 70 degrees.

2. Lightly oil a work surface and place dough on it; fold it over on itself once or twice. Cover loosely with plastic wrap and let rest 30 minutes more.

3. At least a half-hour before dough is ready, heat oven to 450 degrees. Put a 6- to 8-quart heavy covered pot (cast iron, enamel, Pyrex or ceramic) in oven as it heats. When dough is ready, carefully remove pot from oven. Slide your hand under dough and put it into pot, seam side up. Shake pan once or twice if dough is unevenly distributed; it will straighten out as it bakes.

4. Cover with lid and bake 30 minutes, then remove lid and bake another 15 to 30 minutes, until loaf is beautifully browned. Cool on a rack.

Yield: 1 big loaf.


Recipe
Fast No-Knead Whole Wheat Bread
Time: About 1 hour, plus 5 hours’ resting


2 cups whole wheat flour

1/2 cup whole rye flour

1/2 cup coarse cornmeal

1 teaspoon instant yeast

1 1/2 teaspoons salt

Oil as needed.


1. Combine flours, cornmeal, yeast and salt in a large bowl. Add 1 1/2 cups water and stir until blended; dough will be shaggy. Cover bowl with plastic wrap. Let dough rest about 4 hours at warm room temperature, about 70 degrees.

2. Oil a standard loaf pan (8 or 9 inches by 4 inches; nonstick works well). Lightly oil your hands and shape dough into a rough rectangle. Put it in pan, pressing it out to the edges. Brush top with a little more oil. Cover with plastic wrap and let rest 1 hour more.

3. Preheat oven to 350 degrees. Bake bread about 45 minutes, or until loaf reaches an internal temperature of 210 degrees. Remove bread from pan and cool on a rack.

Yield: 1 loaf.


Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: kiwipete on October 04, 2008, 04:38:57 PM
Here is my Sourdough No Knead version:

Recipe:

450 grs White, organic flour
346 grs water
9 grs of salt
15 grs of active starter (I use either Camaldoli or Ischia) (I don't really weigh this anymore - one good, goopy tablespoon is good enough)

Method:

Mix all ingredients together, place in bowl, cover with wrap and ferment for 18-22 hours. (room temp)
Scrape out of ball onto a flour dusted surface and do a "fold" . I found this video (not mine) demonstrating the folding technique on Google http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7644227501824728817 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7644227501824728817).
Place the balled dough gently onto some baking paper and place back into bowl and let rise for another 2 hours.
Place Dutch oven into oven and preheat to 220 C. (for at least half an hour)
When ready to bake, remove lid from Dutch oven and gently lift the ball of dough by the parchment paper out of the bowl and into the Dutch oven (trying not to burn yourself in the process is a good idea..) Put lid on Dutch oven, turn oven down to 200C and cook for 30 minutes.
Then "crack" the lid of the Dutch oven open so its slightly ajar and cook for another 15 minutes.

For optional additional browning I then take the Dutch oven out of the oven, remove the bread and the baking paper and place the bread back in the oven for another 10 minutes or so.

Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: mmarston on March 22, 2009, 06:10:59 PM
New version from a story on NPR.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=102124561

The book it's from.

Kneadlessly Simple: Fabulous, Fuss-Free, No-Knead Breads by Nancy Baggett

The text did not copy well so you'll have to do it yourself.

Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: pcampbell on July 20, 2009, 03:40:00 PM
Does this sound about right for the recipe.  I hate converting non bakers % back to bakers %!!!

Flour (100%):
Water (85%):
IDY (.18%):
Salt (1.5%):
Total (186.68%):
425.22 g  |  15 oz | 0.94 lbs
361.44 g  |  12.75 oz | 0.8 lbs
0.77 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
6.38 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
793.8 g | 28 oz | 1.75 lbs | TF = N/A
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 20, 2009, 04:18:58 PM
Patrick,

There are several versions of the no knead dough recipe in this thread. Which one are you trying to convert?

Peter
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: pcampbell on July 23, 2009, 03:39:24 PM
Hi, thanks.  I guess just the basic one, that was given by Jim Lahey.

I also wonder what size would be the right pot for a 1.75# finished "dough ball" ?

How do commercial bakeries do these, if not with dutch ovens.  I imagine if they free formed them, they would expand out, instead of up?
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 23, 2009, 06:31:50 PM
Patrick,

The original recipe was recited in volume measurements and no weight equivalents were given. The original ingredients are 3 cups of A-P or bread flour (plus more for dusting), 1/4 t. IDY, 1 1/4 t. salt, and 1 5/8 c. water. However, in the video that accompanied the article and recipe, the amount of water mentioned was 1 1/2 c. I believe that most have come to accept the 1 1/2 c. number as the number to use.

Subsequently, Mark Bittman, the author of the original New York Times article, revisited the Lahey no knead recipe and gave recommended weight equivalents for the various ingredients. They are 430 grams for the flour, 345 grams for the water, 1 gram for the IDY and 8 grams for the salt. For a dough ball weighing 1.75 pounds (28 ounces), as you requested, the dough formulation based on the Bittman numbers, using the expanded dough formulation tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, is as follows:

Flour (100%):
Water (80.2326%):
IDY (0.23255%):
Salt (1.86046%):
Total (182.32561%):
435.37 g  |  15.36 oz | 0.96 lbs
349.31 g  |  12.32 oz | 0.77 lbs
1.01 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.34 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
8.1 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.45 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
793.8 g | 28 oz | 1.75 lbs | TF = N/A

If, as an alternative, you choose to use the original amounts of IDY and salt, the formulation becomes:

Flour (100%):
Water (80.2326%):
IDY (0.17512%):
Salt (1.6225%):
Total (182.03022%):
436.08 g  |  15.38 oz | 0.96 lbs
349.88 g  |  12.34 oz | 0.77 lbs
0.76 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
7.08 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.27 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
793.8 g | 28 oz | 1.75 lbs | TF = N/A

There apparently were some complaints that the Lahey recipe was too low on salt, so that is something you might want to take into account if you decide to try the no knead dough. I might also add that I did not include any bowl residue compensation in the dough formulations presented above. Because of the extreme wetness of the dough, I think I would use something around 6% as a bowl residue compensation. Even that might turn out to be on the low side.

Peter





Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: pcampbell on July 23, 2009, 06:57:20 PM
Thanks... looks like I was a little high on the water and alittle low on the salt.  We tried this one the other day though, and it came out quite nicely even as is... with... a lot of salty butter :)
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 23, 2009, 07:11:47 PM
How do commercial bakeries do these, if not with dutch ovens.  I imagine if they free formed them, they would expand out, instead of up?

The Lahey no knead dough/bread was introduced in a course intended to teach home bakers how to make the bread. I bellieve there was some discussion about commercially producing the bread, but I have not read or seen anything to that effect.

Peter
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: pcampbell on July 26, 2009, 05:12:07 PM
We have been doing this.  Really having a lot of fun.  I think dmun really put it most simply with his instructions.

I do not even bother with this folding out.  I have been literally dumping the batter from bowl directly into pre-heated pot.  It seems to figure its own way to make a nice boule!  I find it too difficult to try to do anything with it when its so wet, and I just end up making a mess and getting raw flour everywhere. 

I don't have a cast iron pot either, just been using the pasta pot.  475 F is working for me also, 500+ is too hot and burns the outside before baking through.

Also have been trying about 90% water with 50% whole wheat flour with very good results too.
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Davydd on July 28, 2009, 06:02:48 PM
I've done the Mark Bittman no knead method and found it to be awfully complex just to save a little kneading time. Overall it is generally messier too. The no knead method I find very easy to do is the method in Artisan Bread in Five Minutes A Day by Jeff Hertzberg and Zoe Francois. Their method is simple. For three loaves mix:

3 cups water
1-1/2 tbs IDY
1-1/2 tbs salt
6-1/2 cups all purpose flour

Mix with a spoon until there are no lumps or dry flour in a container with a non-airtight lid, let it rest and rise at room temperature for two hours and then put it in the refrigerator overnight.

When ready to bake, yank or snip off about a third of the dough, form it in a boule by tucking under (do not knead) and place on a peel with corn meal to prevent sticking and let rest for 40 minutes. 20 minutes before bake time pre-heat oven with a baking stone at 450 deg. When ready to bake slide it off the peel onto the stone and add a cup of water to a broiling pan on a rack in the oven under the stone. Bake for 35 minutes. You can also put this same recipe in greased bread pans.

That is their basic demo recipe. From there you can do all sorts of baking. For 6 loaves all you have to remember is 6, 3, 3, 13 for the recipe. The bread dough mix is good for 14 days in the refrigerator. As you use it up you can mix a new batch in the same bowl without cleanup and use the leftover stuck dough to the container as a sourdough starter. Basically cleanup is brushing corn meal and flour off your peel, stone and counter top, and washing the spoon and measuring utensils.

I've got two whole wheat boules in the oven as I am typing this. This whole wheat recipe I used needs to be baked at a lower temperature for a longer time. 350 deg. for 50-60 minutes.
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 28, 2009, 06:19:38 PM
There is more on the Jeff Hertzberg and Zoë François method at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5978.msg51214.html#msg51214.

Peter
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Pizza_Making_Dave on January 10, 2010, 02:13:09 PM
I just made a no knead dough.  It came out great!  I used just a little more water and kept everything else the same in the dough, except for about a quarter of the starter I normally use.  I let it raise for 12 hours, cut and shaped the dough balls and put in refrigerator until ready to use. 

The crust was crispy on the outside and nice and soft on the inside.  Also, the leoparding was incredible! 

Try it!
Title: Re: No Knead Dough
Post by: Streamer on January 11, 2010, 05:48:35 PM
I know I'm late on the scene...BUT ,,  I'm glad I found this thread.  I'm pretty new here and lovin it !!!!
Made my first No Knead.  Used pizza stone and ceramic crock pot liner.  Worked like Majic !