Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => Sicilian Style => Topic started by: norma427 on March 19, 2012, 06:19:36 PM

Title: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 19, 2012, 06:19:36 PM
This is the formulation I used for an attempt at a Sicilian pie for tomorrow.  I used Better for Bread flour and the dough was sticky.  The dough was mixed yesterday for a 12“x17“ steel pan.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 19, 2012, 06:21:05 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 19, 2012, 06:21:37 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on March 19, 2012, 07:44:29 PM
I can't wait to see the results Norma. I am kind of curious why you included sugar and malt powder ???, but I am guessing you will provide us with the answer tomorrow.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 19, 2012, 08:30:37 PM
I can't wait to see the results Norma. I am kind of curious why you included sugar and malt powder ???, but I am guessing you will provide us with the answer tomorrow.

Jim,

I am an experimenter at heart and just like to see how different ingredients do or do not work together.  :-\ I would like to start making Sicilian pies for market, so this formulation is just to see if a higher hydration dough with a lower protein flour will work. I have a lot of samples of dry malt, so I thought I would try them in a Sicilian pie formulation.  Usually with some Sicilian pies I have made, I can’t get the right bottom crust crunch in my deck oven.  I am going to oil my steel pan with lard tomorrow to see what happens.  Maybe someday I will make a decent enough Sicilian pie for market.  I want to try and achieve a light and partially airy crust.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on March 19, 2012, 08:40:11 PM
Norma,
I cant wait to see the results. I am kind of curious about the better for breads and how it will hold up as well. I have used it several times in the past and had to lower my hydration by about 2% when compared with some of the other brands I have tried, KA and Wheat Montana. I am liking the idea of larding up the pan. If that does not provide some flavor I am not sure what will. Good Luck.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 19, 2012, 08:56:45 PM
Norma,
I cant wait to see the results. I am kind of curious about the better for breads and how it will hold up as well. I have used it several times in the past and had to lower my hydration by about 2% when compared with some of the other brands I have tried, KA and Wheat Montana. I am liking the idea of larding up the pan. If that does not provide some flavor I am not sure what will. Good Luck.

Jim,

I had leftover Better for Bread flour and have used it in some higher hydration doughs before, but not quite this high.  I had to do a few stretch and folds on the dough after I mixed it.  I wasn’t sure if I wanted to do more stretch and folds, but just let it be to see what happens. 

I used regular manteca in a dough and to grease a pan before and the taste was great.  This time I just am trying Goya manteca lard because I want to get that used up too.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on March 19, 2012, 10:49:36 PM
Norma,
One thing I thought of tonight for your future Sicilian experiments is that you may want to try two different dough formulas on each side of the pan. What I mean is, cut your dough formula in half and create a standard or generic dough on one side of the pan (what is referred to in experimental biology as a control) and your experimental dough on the other side. I personally found this method to be useful when creating the Buratto clone. I found that using this method saved me quite a bit of flour and gave me a chance to compare two or three different recipes side by side, all the while knowing my workflow, equipment, oven temp and any operator errors will equally effect my final products and not differ the outcome for the recipes.  Anywho, just a thought.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 20, 2012, 06:30:37 AM
Norma,
One thing I thought of tonight for your future Sicilian experiments is that you may want to try two different dough formulas on each side of the pan. What I mean is, cut your dough formula in half and create a standard or generic dough on one side of the pan (what is referred to in experimental biology as a control) and your experimental dough on the other side. I personally found this method to be useful when creating the Buratto clone. I found that using this method saved me quite a bit of flour and gave me a chance to compare two or three different recipes side by side, all the while knowing my workflow, equipment, oven temp and any operator errors will equally effect my final products and not differ the outcome for the recipes.  Anywho, just a thought.

Jim,

That is a good idea to try two different dough formulas on each side of the pan. I might try that in the coming weeks.  Usually when making an experimental dough I have many taste testers that try the final pizzas and give me their opinions on what they think.  I would really love to make a Pizzarium style pie for market, but have too many problems with that high hydration dough for market. 

I would like to be able to use a cheaper flour, mix it for a one day ferment and have it work out.  I am only starting with a longer ferment to see what the difference in flavor might be.  I know I probably will have to change the formulation different times.  My 12”x17” steel pan isn’t even seasoned yet, so I will try to do that at market today.  I plan on letting the dough proof in the pan before baking.

Thanks for your help!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2012, 07:54:54 AM
The first Sicilian attempt went okay yesterday, but there sure is room for improvement.  Number one, I should have know better to season the steel pan instead of just using lard to coat it.  The edges of the pie wanted to stick to the pan.  :-D The crumb did have decent moistness and okay oven spring, but somehow the crumb seemed too heavy.  I don’t know if that is from using the dry malt or not.  The taste of the crumb was good.  The dough was left in the steel pan to proof for 2 hours.  I used the method of applying the blend of cheeses first and then placing dollops of tomato sauce on, then used a squeezed bottle to apply more sauce.  Steve did like this pizza and so did some of my taste testers.  I liked it, but want to improve more.  If anyone has any ideas of what to change let me know.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2012, 07:56:35 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2012, 07:57:58 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2012, 07:59:26 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2012, 08:00:29 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2012, 08:01:30 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2012, 08:02:41 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dellavecchia on March 21, 2012, 08:05:25 AM
Fantastic Norma! How soft was the crumb?

John
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2012, 08:16:14 AM
Fantastic Norma! How soft was the crumb?

John

John,

Thanks!  :) The crumb was soft and moist, but not light enough in my opinion.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dellavecchia on March 21, 2012, 08:34:53 AM
Norma - Try mixing the dough fully until it is smooth, and skipping the malt (since the flour is already malted). This may give you a lighter crumb. I would be interested to see if that would help.

John
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2012, 09:00:38 AM
Norma - Try mixing the dough fully until it is smooth, and skipping the malt (since the flour is already malted). This may give you a lighter crumb. I would be interested to see if that would help.

John

John,

Thanks so much for your help!  :) I will try cutting out the malt and mixing more until smooth. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: The Dough Doctor on March 21, 2012, 09:15:05 AM
Norma;
On your formula sheet it shows the malt as being DIASTATIC. This is an active, (enzyme active) malt that should only be used with a non-malted flour, and even then, the recommended use level is only 0.25% of the total flour weight, not 2% as your formula shows. If the malt was non-diastatic you could use it at the 2% level without any problem. High malt levels will always result in a gummy, wet crumb structure, and in some cases it may also inhibit oven spring. My advice is to totally eliminate the diastatic malt form your dough formula.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2012, 09:25:30 AM
Norma;
On your formula sheet it shows the malt as being DIASTATIC. This is an active, (enzyme active) malt that should only be used with a non-malted flour, and even then, the recommended use level is only 0.25% of the total flour weight, not 2% as your formula shows. If the malt was non-diastatic you could use it at the 2% level without any problem. High malt levels will always result in a gummy, wet crumb structure, and in some cases it may also inhibit oven spring. My advice is to totally eliminate the diastatic malt form your dough formula.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

You would think by this stage in my pizza making I would know the difference between diastatic malt and non-diastatic malt, but I still get them confused.  :-D The dry malt was sent to me as a sample and I thought it was non-diastatic malt powder. I will eliminate the dry malt.   Thanks for your help!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Ev on March 21, 2012, 09:30:15 AM
Norma,
   I ate most of the leftover pie last night. I think it was better reheated in the toaster oven than fresh. Nice and crispy on the bottom, but maybe a little greasy too, but not too much so. The crumb didn't get any lighter though, and I know that's what you were hoping for.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on March 21, 2012, 09:34:47 AM
Norma,
Your Sicilian certainly looks handsome. I am really liking the sauce stripes, reminds me of my hometown pizzeria. I am not sure I could add anything more to what John and Tom said about the malt.  The only other thought I had to get maximum lightness, regardless of the recipe, would be to par-bake your crust.  
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2012, 09:51:06 AM
Norma,
   I ate most of the leftover pie last night. I think it was better reheated in the toaster oven than fresh. Nice and crispy on the bottom, but maybe a little greasy too, but not too much so. The crumb didn't get any lighter though, and I know that's what you were hoping for.

Steve,

I didn’t think the crumb would get any lighter in a reheat. Thanks for posting about the reheated slices.  Do you think the greasiness was from the lard I used?  It didn’t seem greasy at all to me at market yesterday, did it to you?  I know Kim said he liked the pizza slice in a reheat, but you know me, I will have to experiment more.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2012, 09:55:28 AM
Norma,
Your Sicilian certainly looks handsome. I am really liking the sauce stripes, reminds me of my hometown pizzeria. I am not sure I could add anything more to what John and Tom said about the malt.  The only other thought I had to get maximum lightness, regardless of the recipe, would be to par-bake your crust.  

Jim,

Thanks for your thoughts too!  :) Glad you like the stripes.  I think next week I will get rid of the dollops and just use stripes. I had tried some parbakes in some of my other Sicilian pies I have made and want to try and make this one without a parbake. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 25, 2012, 09:24:54 PM
I mixed another Sicilian dough today for an another attempt on Tuesday.  This is the formulation I used with Better for Bread flour.  I change the ADY to IDY and dropped the dry malt.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 25, 2012, 09:26:17 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on March 25, 2012, 09:38:52 PM
Looks like a solid recipe Norma. :chef: I cant wait to see your results Tues.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 25, 2012, 09:54:58 PM
Looks like a solid recipe Norma. :chef: I cant wait to see your results Tues.

Jim,

Thanks for saying the formulation looks like a solid one.  :) The dough was sticky again and I gave it a few stretch and folds, but would like it I ever get a decent formulation not to have to mess with it too much for market.  That is why I didn’t give it many stretch and folds.  If some formulation ever works out okay, I will try to add more yeast for a one day cold ferment.  It seems customers that visited market last week were interested in the Sicilian pizza.  My one customer had a few slices and he said he would buy that every week.  Hopefully, something works out.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on March 25, 2012, 10:04:14 PM
Norma,
 I am certain it will work out great. Say, are you still planning on using the lard to grease the pan or are you going to change up your "bench oil" (I am not sure if that is the correct term but i am going with it :) )?
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 25, 2012, 10:17:40 PM
Norma,
 I am certain it will work out great. Say, are you still planning on using the lard to grease the pan or are you going to change up your "bench oil" (I am not sure if that is the correct term but i am going with it :) )?

Jim,

Thanks for having confidence in that it will work out.  :) I plan on using either peanut oil or corn oil this time to grease the steel pan.  I have had some luck with both of those kinds of oils in a steel pan.  I have both kinds of oils at market, but haven’t decided which one I want to use.  I just call the oil to grease the pan “pan oil”.  I really don’t know the correct term either.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 26, 2012, 06:06:14 PM
This is how the dough ball looked after about 24 hours of cold fermenting.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 27, 2012, 09:45:03 PM
The Sicilian dough and pizza went well today.  The dough ball was only left to warm-up for about an half of an hour, because last week it wanted to become too big when trying to put it into the steel pan.  The colder approach to opening the dough went better, but not perfect. That dough was placed into the steel pan easily and was left at room temperature for 2 hrs. for the second rise.  The pizza was dressed with a blend of two mozzarellas, white cheddar, then the tomato sauce was added in strips, and the whole pie was sprinkled with Romano cheese and some Sicilian oregano.  I had seasoned the steel pan more today with corn oil.  The pan was also oiled with corn oil.  The final Sicilian pizza was light and had a nice crisp on the bottom.  There wasn’t any trouble with getting the pie out of the pan today.  The only problems with this baked was where the strips of tomato sauce were added the crumb seemed to want to be not have as much oven spring and near the middle of the pizza it didn’t want to brown as much.  Any ideas how to avoid the last two things I mentioned?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 27, 2012, 09:46:13 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 27, 2012, 09:47:41 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 27, 2012, 09:48:40 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 27, 2012, 09:49:57 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 27, 2012, 09:51:33 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 27, 2012, 09:52:30 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 27, 2012, 09:53:49 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 27, 2012, 09:55:16 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 27, 2012, 09:56:27 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 27, 2012, 09:57:28 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on March 27, 2012, 10:25:46 PM
That Sicilian looks to die for Norma and remarkably similar to the one I grew up with on Long Island http://www.patiopizzany.com/apps/photos/. The only exception is that they stripped the grandma but regardless very close. The only suggest I may offer regarding the oven spring is to try and use a fresh tomato sauce. Due to its viscous properties of the cooked sauce,  water may evaporate more out of the fresh sauce during baking offering less weight in those areas. Other than that, great looking pie. I am really jealous I was not there to try it.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 27, 2012, 10:53:57 PM
That Sicilian looks to die for Norma and remarkably similar to the one I grew up with on Long Island http://www.patiopizzany.com/apps/photos/. The only exception is that they stripped the grandma but regardless very close. The only suggest I may offer regarding the oven spring is to try and use a fresh tomato sauce. Due to its viscous properties, the water may evaporate more out of the fresh sauce during baking offering less weight in those areas. Other than that, great looking pie. I am really jealous I was not there to try it.

Jim,

Thanks for your kind comments!  :) Thanks also for the link to the pizzeria where you ate pizzas.  They look very good!   :)

What do you mean by using fresh tomato sauce?  Do you mean I should purchase fresh tomatoes and grind them?  Do you think my TF is right, or do you think it should be lowered?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on March 27, 2012, 11:22:42 PM
Norma,
You are more than welcome, that truly looks incredible. What I meant by the "fresh tomato sauce" was to use crushed or whole canned tomatoes that have been pureed and not cooked. I thought you previously mentioned that you use a premade sauce in the previous posts. Regardless, the wetter the sauce, the better the oven spring will be in those areas. Maybe try adding some water to sauce. If nothing else works, make some speed bumps in the dough so the oven spring in the stripped areas looks deliberate  :-D. The TF may be a little too thick but not by much, given your results it is almost trivial. Try bringing it down to 0.13 next time and see if you like the results as much. If not, split the difference, ie .14.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 28, 2012, 07:04:25 AM
Norma,
You are more than welcome, that truly looks incredible. What I meant by the "fresh tomato sauce" was to use crushed or whole canned tomatoes that have been pureed and not cooked. I thought you previously mentioned that you use a premade sauce in the previous posts. Regardless, the wetter the sauce, the better the oven spring will be in those areas. Maybe try adding some water to sauce. If nothing else works, make some speed bumps in the dough so the oven spring in the stripped areas looks deliberate  :-D. The TF may be a little too thick but not by much, given your results it is almost trivial. Try bringing it down to 0.13 next time and see if you like the results as much. If not, split the difference, ie .14.

Jim,

I understand what you mean by fresh tomato sauce now.  I have some Centro and Classio Tomato products at market and might try them next week.  The sauce I used for this pie was Stanislaus Full Red with added herbs and garlic and some Parmesan cheese.  The sauce wasn’t cooked at all before the pizza was made.  Steve also commented that maybe my sauce was too thick for this type of pizza.  Lol, the idea of speed bumps is funny!  :-D I’ll try dropping the TF down to .14% for next week.

Thanks for your help!   :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dellavecchia on March 28, 2012, 07:04:42 AM
Just about perfect Norma. These slices look absolutely delicious - well done.

John
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 28, 2012, 07:07:27 AM
Just about perfect Norma. These slices look absolutely delicious - well done.

John

John,

Thanks!  What would you change either in the formulation or the way to apply the sauce?  Would you also drop the TF some?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: The Dough Doctor on March 28, 2012, 08:02:03 AM
Norma;
It is normal for the crust volume/height to be slightly suppressed where you have sauce. This is an old trick that we use when making par-baked crusts to prevent bubbling. Just lightly sauce the dough skin prior to baking and you can reduce the bubbling issue significantly. This is even greater when you have a heavy sauce application as your pictures suggest. Aside from par-baking the crust to some extent prior to dressing it, or using less sauce, what you are getting looks to be pretty normal. I've never seen a deep-dish pizza that was even across the entire diameter, there is always at least some loss of volume/height just under the sauce. This is one reason why a lot of the big box pizza stores use such a light application of sauce on their deep-dish pizzas. My expression for this is to say that those pizzas were blessed by the Italian sauce man.
Good lookin' pizza!
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 28, 2012, 08:55:20 AM
Norma;
It is normal for the crust volume/height to be slightly suppressed where you have sauce. This is an old trick that we use when making par-baked crusts to prevent bubbling. Just lightly sauce the dough skin prior to baking and you can reduce the bubbling issue significantly. This is even greater when you have a heavy sauce application as your pictures suggest. Aside from par-baking the crust to some extent prior to dressing it, or using less sauce, what you are getting looks to be pretty normal. I've never seen a deep-dish pizza that was even across the entire diameter, there is always at least some loss of volume/height just under the sauce. This is one reason why a lot of the big box pizza stores use such a light application of sauce on their deep-dish pizzas. My expression for this is to say that those pizzas were blessed by the Italian sauce man.
Good lookin' pizza!
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


Tom,

Thanks for telling me it is normal for the crust volume/height to be slightly be suppressed where the sauce is applied.  I did sauce the pie heavily.  Do you think it would be better to par-bake first?  I was just trying to get rid of one step.  :-D  Interesting to hear that there is always at least some loss of volume/height just under the sauce. 

Nice phrase, “blessed by the Italian sauce man”.  I like your phrase!  :)

Quite a nice compliment coming from the dough doctor about the pizza.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dellavecchia on March 28, 2012, 12:22:00 PM
John,

Thanks!  What would you change either in the formulation or the way to apply the sauce?  Would you also drop the TF some?

Norma

Norma - I recently solved this issue of the sauce weighing down the pie in the center, and fixed it with mixing and some strength from acidity (it was a starter-based dough). The dough was highly hydrated, and the flour I used was KABF. The TF was high as well:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17983.msg175877.html#msg175877

John
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 28, 2012, 02:00:05 PM
Norma - I recently solved this issue of the sauce weighing down the pie in the center, and fixed it with mixing and some strength from acidity (it was a starter-based dough). The dough was highly hydrated, and the flour I used was KABF. The TF was high as well:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17983.msg175877.html#msg175877

John

John,

Thanks so much for posting a link to what your method was of mixing strength into the flour.  :) I might try mixing with a flat beater first for the next attempt, then change to the dough hook.  That seemed to give me more strength in some of the Reinhart higher hydration doughs I had tried before.   Your L&B Hybrid looks delicious!   :chef:

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: The Dough Doctor on March 28, 2012, 02:32:15 PM
Norma;
We make one where we par-bake the dough until it is just set, then remove it from the oven and dress the crust, then put it back into the oven to finish baking. It is an extra step, but it does result in a finished crust that is essentially as flat as a board across the entire diameter. As a side benefit, it seems to dry the crust out a little more than baking it all at one time, resulting in a crispier finished pizza. If nothing else works for you , you might give this a try.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 28, 2012, 03:19:21 PM
Norma;
We make one where we par-bake the dough until it is just set, then remove it from the oven and dress the crust, then put it back into the oven to finish baking. It is an extra step, but it does result in a finished crust that is essentially as flat as a board across the entire diameter. As a side benefit, it seems to dry the crust out a little more than baking it all at one time, resulting in a crispier finished pizza. If nothing else works for you , you might give this a try.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

Thanks for the tips about the par-bake until the dough is just set.  :) I like the crispier finished pizza, but does it still retain the moistness in the crumb?  I want to retain the moistness and light texture in the crumb.  I have tried par-bake with some Sicilian doughs before and really didn’t think my results were that good, but maybe I wasn’t using the right formulation.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: The Dough Doctor on March 30, 2012, 07:44:28 AM
Norma;
There are two aspects to using a par-baked crust and getting what you are looking for. The first is to par-bake and then IMMEDIATELY dress the crust and place it back into the oven. The second, and equally as important is not to overbake the crust during the par-baking stage. Some will say that the par-baked crust shouldn't have any color on it at all, while I'm a little more generous and say that it can be tinged with a little light brown, especially on the bottom.
Good luck,
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on March 30, 2012, 09:21:41 AM
Norma;
There are two aspects to using a par-baked crust and getting what you are looking for. The first is to par-bake and then IMMEDIATELY dress the crust and place it back into the oven. The second, and equally as important is not to overbake the crust during the par-baking stage. Some will say that the par-baked crust shouldn't have any color on it at all, while I'm a little more generous and say that it can be tinged with a little light brown, especially on the bottom.
Good luck,
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

Thanks so much for telling me about the two aspects using a par-baked crust in what I would like to achieve.  :) I might try a par-bake this coming Tuesday. 

Thanks also for the good luck!

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 01, 2012, 06:50:57 PM
I went to start another batch of Sicilian dough today and got all the ingredients out and here I didn’t have enough of the Better for Bread flour by about 50 grams.  I didn’t feel like going to the supermarket just for flour, so I substituted the Better for Bread flour with the Ceresota all purpose flour.  At least after this attempt with the Ceresota all purpose flour I will know how a lower protein flour performs in the same formulation.  I did use the flat beater on my Kitchen Aid Mixer first to mix all of the ingredients, then switched over to the dough hook and mixed on speed 1 for 9 minutes.  The dough felt about the same as my last attempt. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 02, 2012, 11:14:34 AM
Pictures of the dough ball top and bottom this morning.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2012, 07:23:22 AM
I am now glad I didn’t have enough Better for Bread flour for the next iteration of the Sicilian pizza I am trying for market.  The Ceresota flour with the same formulation I used better worked out better in my opinion.  I kept the same TF as before.

The dough ball was opened cold and that also seems to work well.  The pan was oiled with not too much corn oil.  The dough was then proofed in the steel pan on top of the deck oven.  A blend of mozzarellas was applied, then the sauce.  The sauce was thinned some for this attempt and it was applied with a bottle in stripes.  A little of Larry’s Greek Oregano was sprinkled on last.  The pie baked well and the crumb was soft and moist, with a little crisp on the bottom crust.  The bottom crust baked evenly in this attempt. I think the only thing I might try for the next attempt is to apply more sauce in another row of stripes going the other way. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2012, 07:24:24 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2012, 07:26:02 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2012, 07:27:09 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2012, 07:27:58 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2012, 07:28:50 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2012, 07:29:37 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2012, 07:30:34 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2012, 07:31:25 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on April 04, 2012, 08:44:24 AM
Norma,
Again, your Sicilian looks excellent. I am glad the Ceresota flour worked out well for you. It looks like you solved your "speed bump" problem as well. I noticed the sauce was applied much lighter this time. Was the sauce your regular remade sauce or was this a fresh sauces? I am also curious, what was your deck temp for this pie? In any case, a handsome looking pie all around.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2012, 09:14:06 AM
Norma,
Again, your Sicilian looks excellent. I am glad the Ceresota flour worked out well for you. It looks like you solved your "speed bump" problem as well. I noticed the sauce was applied much lighter this time. Was the sauce your regular remade sauce or was this a fresh sauces? I am also curious, what was your deck temp for this pie? In any case, a handsome looking pie all around.

Jim,

Thanks!  :) I think the “speed bump” problems was solved, but will have to do more tests.  The sauce I used is my regular market sauce.  This time it was made with Full Red, garlic, herbs, a little sugar, a sprinkle of Kosher Salt, and Red Cow Parmesan cheese and wasn’t cooked.  The temperature on the deck was about 525 degrees F for this bake.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: FacciaPizza on April 04, 2012, 02:17:59 PM
The crumb looks perfect to me. I would devour that pie.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2012, 02:41:22 PM
The crumb looks perfect to me. I would devour that pie.

FacciaPizza,

Thanks!  :) Steve told me he liked this pie the best of all of them so far, but would like more sauce. I agreed with the more sauce idea.  He even told me he would rather eat this kind of pizza than a Neapolitan pizza.  :o I guess that is the Sicilian in him that makes him like this kind of pizza.  :-D I think he is also going to try out the same formulation.

Does anyone know of a better way to apply the sauce?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on April 04, 2012, 03:37:16 PM
Quote
Does anyone know of a better way to apply the sauce?
Norma,
I have seen several saucing methods for Sicilian Pies, one is the squeeze bottle "striping" approach you are currently using. Maybe you could try making a double row of sauce or crisscross like you were planning.

Another approach is to coat the pie in sauce over the cheese i.e. the L&B approach.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17168.msg176003.html#msg176003
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17168.msg175986.html#msg175986
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17168.msg172935.html#msg172935

Alternatively, you could use the Umberto's approach to saucing, making irregular dollops of sauce all over the pie.
http://gothamist.com/2012/02/03/ny_pizza_gets_police_escort_to_lagu.php
https://pmq.com/mag/2004march_april/secretrecipe.shtml
http://www.comfortinthekitchen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/umbertos.jpg

All of which in my opinion produce great results. For the most part, it comes down to preference, yours and your customers.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 04, 2012, 03:46:00 PM
I gotta put my vote in for the L&B method, although that last Umberto's pic (http://www.comfortinthekitchen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/umbertos.jpg) looks friggin' incredible.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2012, 04:09:36 PM
Norma,
I have seen several saucing methods for Sicilian Pies, one is the squeeze bottle "striping" approach you are currently using. Maybe you could try making a double row of sauce or crisscross like you were planning.

Another approach is to coat the pie in sauce over the cheese i.e. the L&B approach.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17168.msg176003.html#msg176003
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17168.msg175986.html#msg175986
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17168.msg172935.html#msg172935

Alternatively, you could use the Umberto's approach to saucing, making irregular dollops of sauce all over the pie.
http://gothamist.com/2012/02/03/ny_pizza_gets_police_escort_to_lagu.php
https://pmq.com/mag/2004march_april/secretrecipe.shtml
http://www.comfortinthekitchen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/umbertos.jpg

All of which in my opinion produce great results. For the most part, it comes down to preference, yours and your customers.

Jim,

Thanks so much for all the links for methods in applying the sauce.  :) I think I might try the Umberto’s method next week.  It would be easier applying the sauce that way, than fooling around with a bottle.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on April 04, 2012, 04:21:45 PM
Quote
...although that last Umberto's pic (http://www.comfortinthekitchen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/umbertos.jpg) looks friggin' incredible.
Craig,
In my opinion they have the best Sicilian in the state and they were voted best Pizza on Long Island.  Umberto's is definitely worth the visit next time your in NYC (only 30 mins outside the city in New Hyde Park, just off the Long Island Express way).

Norma,
You are most certainly welcome.  :) I should add, the top two links are the grandma style and the bottom is their Sicilian. While the sauce ingredients for the Sicilian and the grandma are different, their method for applying the sauces is virtual identical. I do believe that the Sicilian sauce is thinner than the grandma to deal with the extended baking time. Something to consider.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2012, 04:28:48 PM

Norma,
You are most certainly welcome.  :) I should add, the top two links are the grandma style and the bottom is their Sicilian. While the sauce ingredients for the Sicilian and the grandma are different, their method for applying the sauces is virtual identical. I do believe that the Sicilian sauce is thinner than the grandma to deal with the extended baking time. Something to consider.

Jim,

Thanks for telling me the Sicilian sauce is thinner because of the longer bake.  I will take that into consideration.  I was surprised that my bake Tuesday really wasn’t that long. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on April 04, 2012, 04:39:38 PM
Norma,
Really, ??? that is interesting. Do you have any ideas why that was or what your baking times were? I think 525F is right where you should be as far as temp is concerned.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2012, 04:51:07 PM
Norma,
Really, ??? that is interesting. Do you have any ideas why that was or what your baking times were? I think 525F is right where you should be as far as temp is concerned.

Jim,

I am not exactly sure how long the bake was, but it seemed to be about 8 minutes.  Steve and I both commented that the bake was shorter than what we thought it would be.  I can time it for you next week if you want.  I didn’t know that 525 degree F seems to be right for this type of pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on April 04, 2012, 05:02:01 PM
Norma,
If you remember, feel free to time it. If not no worries.

Quote
I didn’t know that 525 degree F seems to be right for this type of pizza.

Yeah, between 485F to 535F is pretty normal. I typically bake my Sicilians 525F too, for me that is my sweet spot with these styles. Typically, it will take me about 10-14 mins, depending on how often I open the oven.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2012, 05:07:43 PM
Norma,
If you remember, feel free to time it. If not no worries.

Yeah, between 485F to 535F is pretty normal. I typically bake my Sicilians 525F too, for me that is my sweet spot with these styles. Typically, it will take me about 10-14 mins, depending on how often I open the oven.

Jim,

I will try to remember to time the bake with my cellphone.  I wonder if since my deck oven has a lower head space if that is why it baked in a shorter time.  I will wait until I take the bake time next week to see if actually that was my bake time.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on April 04, 2012, 07:08:21 PM
Jim,

I will try to remember to time the bake with my cellphone.  I wonder if since my deck oven has a lower head space if that is why it baked in a shorter time.  I will wait until I take the bake time next week to see if actually that was my bake time.

Norma

\

Norma, I believe the lower head space of your oven has a lot to do with your bake time. I baked a very similar pie at 475 for 18 minutes in the smaller of the two ovens in my dual deck oven. The heat is in a smaller space, thus is more concentrated. 525 would be too high in my particular oven, it would cook the outside too fast and leave the center doughy. I like my pies cooked well through, when a dough like this is not cooked through well, it is awful heavy. Even with a Sicilian, I like to keep the dough as light as possible.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2012, 07:45:45 PM
\

Norma, I believe the lower head space of your oven has a lot to do with your bake time. I baked a very similar pie at 475 for 18 minutes in the smaller of the two ovens in my dual deck oven. The heat is in a smaller space, thus is more concentrated. 525 would be too high in my particular oven, it would cook the outside too fast and leave the center doughy. I like my pies cooked well through, when a dough like this is not cooked through well, it is awful heavy. Even with a Sicilian, I like to keep the dough as light as possible.

Dave,

Thanks for telling me what temperature you bake at and your bake time and telling me you believe the lower head space in my deck oven has a lot to do with the bake time I had, or thought I had.

I also like my pies cooked well through.  I am trying to keep my attempts at making the Sicilian pies as light as I can.

I will see what the bake time is for next Tuesday.  That also can change if I put regular pizzas in and out of the top of the deck.  When Steve and I baked the pie on Tuesday it was a slow time, so I would guess the oven temperature stayed higher.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 09, 2012, 06:15:14 PM
I mixed another dough this morning for another attempt for a Sicilian pizza at market.  Everything was kept the same except I upped the IDY amount in the formulation, because it will only be cold fermenting for one day instead of two days like before.

I used the flat beater again to start mixing the dough in the Kitchen Aid mixer and then went to the dough hook.  The dough felt nice.  If I want to use this dough for market, either I will have to do a one day cold ferment or try for a 4 day cold ferment. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on April 09, 2012, 07:09:05 PM
Norma,
 I am forgetting if you mentioned this last time, but did you decide to drop the TF from .15 to .14? In any case, I look forward to seeing your results.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 09, 2012, 09:04:56 PM
Norma,
 I am forgetting if you mentioned this last time, but did you decide to drop the TF from .15 to .14? In any case, I look forward to seeing your results.

Jim,

I replied at Reply 60 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg180372.html#msg180372  that I had kept the TF the same.  The TF was 0.15 since the beginning of this thread.  I liked that TF so far.  Thanks for posting that you look forward to my results.  I didn’t have time to mix the dough yesterday and figured if I ever use the dough for pizzas for market, I would need to make some changes to see if it could be used for market, because I could ‘t ever do a two cold ferment.  This should be a good test to see if the crust changes flavors from a 1 day cold ferment.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on April 09, 2012, 09:28:18 PM
Okay, there it is.
Quote
I liked that TF so far.
Given your results to this point Norma, I don't fault you one bit for not changing it. It looks like you have your crust dialed in.  :chef:
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on April 09, 2012, 09:29:42 PM
BTW what did you up your IDY% to?
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 09, 2012, 09:57:34 PM
BTW what did you up your IDY% to?

Jim,

I did up the IDY, but didn’t do it on the expanded dough calculating tool.  I just upped it from 2.06 grams to 3.06 grams.  I know that isn’t the best approach, but I can always let it sit out longer at ambient room temps to let it ferment more if it doesn’t look fermented enough.  I might need to change the IDY amount if the bake goes okay tomorrow.  If the taste of the crust stays decent with a one day cold ferment, then I will have to work on the amount of IDY.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on April 09, 2012, 10:18:29 PM
Norma,
Based on your original post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg177127.html#msg177127, it looks like you are now at 0.59% compared with 0.4%. So a slight increase. Good luck tomorrow. 
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 09, 2012, 10:31:38 PM
Norma,
Based on your original post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg177127.html#msg177127, it looks like you are now at 0.59% compared with 0.4%. So a slight increase. Good luck tomorrow. 


Jim,

Thanks for calculating what percentage of increase there was in the IDY. I am not good at calculating.  That sure wasn’t much. I used the formulation at Reply 26   http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg178345.html#msg178345 when I changed from ADY to IDY.  Thanks also for the good luck tomorrow.   :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: johnnydoubleu on April 10, 2012, 01:17:12 PM
Pie is coming along Norma! :) Looks sort of like a Brooklyn/Detroit Sicilian mashup!

-------------

For those that aren't aware: Ceresota is the same flour as Heckers. They use the names for marketing in different regions. I like it, though I find it a little gray/ashy.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 10, 2012, 09:40:17 PM
Pie is coming along Norma! :) Looks sort of like a Brooklyn/Detroit Sicilian mashup!


johnnydoubleu,

Yes, I guess the attempts I have been trying for a Sicilian pie, kind of might be like a Brooklyn/Detroit Sicilian mashup.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2012, 08:17:46 AM
The Sicilian dough with the one day cold ferment worked out okay.  The texture and taste of the crumb was almost like last week.  The bake was timed on my cell phone and on Steve’s cell phone and it was over 13 minutes and closer to 14 minutes.  I think the pie could have been pulled from the oven at around 13 minutes, but at the time I was busy waiting on customers.  My guess time of 8 minutes last week was way off on the bake time.  I am not sure if I like how the sauce was applied and still am undecided how to apply the sauce.  I am also undecided if I want to try another flour in the same formulation or make other tweaks to the formulation.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2012, 08:18:52 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2012, 08:20:03 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2012, 08:21:20 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2012, 08:22:20 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2012, 08:23:13 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2012, 08:23:51 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on April 11, 2012, 08:34:57 AM
Norma,
Wow... that is just beautiful looking. The crust and sauce application was spot on and nearly identical to Umberto's Sicilian. Judging solely on appearances, I would say that this version is the best looking Sicilian to date. But then again, my pie preferences are biased towards Long Island eateries. In any case great job. 
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2012, 08:52:17 AM
Norma,
Wow... that is just beautiful looking. The crust and sauce application was spot on and nearly identical to Umberto's Sicilian. Judging solely on appearances, I would say that this version is the best looking Sicilian to date. But then again, my pie preferences are biased towards Long Island eateries. In any case great job. 

Jim,

Thanks for posting that you liked the results of the Sicilian pie yesterday.  :) I wonder what flour Umberto’s uses for their Sicilian pies.  I also wonder how long Umberto’s bakes at what temperatures.  Since I never tasted a Sicilian pie at Umberto’s, I have no idea is my Sicilian Pie is close to theirs.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on April 11, 2012, 09:14:24 AM
Norma,
I am not sure about the baking time and temp. I have been using 525F for all of my square pies and do not think that temp is too far off the mark and your bake time sounds about right. When I head back to LI this summer I will make a trip to Umberto's and try to get some more info. I know they are tight lipped about the process in there, but they do have an open kitchen so I may be able to time their bakes and see what temps they are operating at.  
The flour according to one of the other members was GM All Trumps http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6608.msg163519.html#msg163519.  However if the other flour is working out, I wouldn't change it. I think you are pretty spot on where you are at.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2012, 09:41:26 AM
Norma,
I am not sure about the baking time and temp. I have been using 525F for all of my square pies and do not think that temp is too far off the mark and your bake time sounds about right. When I head back to LI this summer I will make a trip to Umberto's and try to get some more info. I know they are tight lipped about the process in there, but they do have an open kitchen so I may be able to time their bakes and see what temps they are operating at.  
The flour according to one of the other members was GM All Trumps http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6608.msg163519.html#msg163519.  However if the other flour is working out, I wouldn't change it. I think you are pretty spot on where you are at.

Jim,

I also now believe the bake time and temperature might be about right, from you posts and now knowing the real bake time.  Great to hear that when you head back to Long Island you will make a trip to Umberto’s to find out more information if you can.  ;D  Thanks for the link from the other member about Umberto’s using All Trumps.  I don’t have All Trumps, but do have Kyrol flour I could try.  I don’t know what a higher protein flour would do to the crumb.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dellavecchia on April 11, 2012, 09:48:58 AM
Wow Norma. Perfect amount of browning, excellent height, beautiful soft crumb. I love this pie you have created - it combines a lot of different techniques into one cohesive product.

I think the char on the outside brings real character to the pie. My vote is to keep your 14 minute bake time.

John
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2012, 10:30:09 AM
Wow Norma. Perfect amount of browning, excellent height, beautiful soft crumb. I love this pie you have created - it combines a lot of different techniques into one cohesive product.

I think the char on the outside brings real character to the pie. My vote is to keep your 14 minute bake time.

John

John,

Thanks for your kind comments and telling me you would keep the 14 minute bake because of the char on the outside.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: johnnydoubleu on April 11, 2012, 11:47:08 AM
Killer stuff Norma! Looks super delicious! :)
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2012, 01:25:18 PM
Killer stuff Norma! Looks super delicious! :)

johnnydoubleu,

Thanks so much for your kind comments!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Jackie Tran on April 11, 2012, 04:45:47 PM
Norma, the crumb looks outstanding.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2012, 05:19:06 PM
Norma, the crumb looks outstanding.

Chau,

Thanks,  :) it ate pretty good and was simple to mix the dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2012, 05:24:55 PM
I made one change to the formulation I used last week.  I just wanted to see how All Trumps would work.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: johnnydoubleu on April 16, 2012, 06:26:52 PM
Norma,

You are selling Sicilian slices from these pies? How is that going over?

They really do look fantastic!

How are you kneading? I love the look of the crumb. :)
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2012, 08:33:43 PM
Norma,

You are selling Sicilian slices from these pies? How is that going over?

They really do look fantastic!

How are you kneading? I love the look of the crumb. :)

John,

I didn’t start trying to sell slices from the Sicilian pies I have been experimenting with, but hope to in the next couple of weeks.  A few potential customers seemed interested in the slices that were left over after the taste testers tried them.  Thanks for saying they look fantastic.  :)

In the last couple few experiments all I do is mix with the flat beater with my Kitchen Aid mixer and when all the ingredients clump up on the flat beater, I just scrap them off, then mix about 8 minutes with the dough hook, then ball and brush olive oil on the dough ball. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2012, 07:13:01 PM
These are the results of the Sicilian pizza made with the All Trumps flour.  I wasn’t as satisfied with using All Trumps as some of the other flours I have tried before in the same formulation.  I don’t know why, but the dough didn’t proof as well and seemed to develop air bubbles in the dough while proofing.  Also in the bake I had to pop some bubbles.  Although the pizza seemed well baked there was a slight gum line and the crumb seemed denser.  The taste of the crust was still good, but I think I will be using a lower protein flour from now on.  I also changed the oil to peanut oil to grease the steel pan.  I like the canola oil just as good and it isn’t as expensive. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2012, 07:15:09 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2012, 07:16:10 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2012, 07:17:18 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2012, 07:18:32 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2012, 07:19:39 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2012, 07:20:17 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on April 18, 2012, 10:41:49 PM
Norma,
The pizza looks fantastic.  :chef: I am glad you tried the All-Trumps flour. I was kind of curious what your thoughts might be on this flour in your recipe. So are you going back to the Creresota flour or are you going to change things around again?
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 19, 2012, 08:41:20 AM
Norma,
The pizza looks fantastic.  :chef: I am glad you tried the All-Trumps flour. I was kind of curious what your thoughts might be on this flour in your recipe. So are you going back to the Creresota flour or are you going to change things around again?

Jim,

Thanks for your kind words!  :) I don’t know if I don’t have the right formulation to try All Trumps flour or not, but it appears that way to me.  I am not sure what flour I am going to try next.  I might be going to my distributor today or tomorrow and get a new flour to try.  I guess it will be a lower protein flour if I purchase another flour.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2012, 08:39:29 AM
I mixed another attempt for a Sicilian pizza and used the same formulation as before, but changed the flour to GM Full Strength.  The dough was mixed this morning.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: franko9752 on April 23, 2012, 06:19:20 PM
So how do you like making Sicilian pies compared to N.Y. style Norma. My brother is a Sicilian pie freak so i might try a few.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2012, 06:30:57 PM
So how do you like making Sicilian pies compared to N.Y. style Norma. My brother is a Sicilian pie freak so i might try a few.

franko9752,

I do really like trying different attempts on Sicilian pizzas.  So far the mixing is really easy and I really don’t have to worry about forming a perfect dough ball.  I also really like Sicilian pizzas.  I think the key is to have a good steel pan and to first pre-season the pan and then make sure to oil it before putting the dough in the steel pan.  There are many great Sicilian formulations here on the forum if you want to give a Sicilian pie a go.  I didn’t want to add any oil in the dough and so far no oil is working well.  The only two things that take longer is the proof and how long the pies take to bake, which really isn’t that long.

Let us know how your Sicilian pies turn out if you decide to make any. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 25, 2012, 08:53:19 AM
The Sicilian experiment with the GM Full Strength flour went well yesterday.  The only thing I think should have been changed is the bake time should have been a little longer.  In the middle of the pie there was some gum layers at a few spots.  The slices even tasted better after a reheat because the bottom became crisper and the middle crust still stayed moist.  I think this was the lightest crust so far.

The last two pictures are of the reheat.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 25, 2012, 08:57:18 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 25, 2012, 08:58:27 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 25, 2012, 08:59:32 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 25, 2012, 09:00:28 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 25, 2012, 09:01:18 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 25, 2012, 09:02:29 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 25, 2012, 09:03:24 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on April 25, 2012, 09:56:39 AM
Norma

Nice pies, could you tell me your bake temperature and time? I have 4 doughs sitting in the fridge that I made yesterday and will use for Thursday nights NFL Draft get together with friends. My doughs are very simple ap flour, water, salt, IDY... no oils or sugars added. I like the texture that ap flour gives on a Sicilian, and see no need for oil. The dough will be spread in a well oiled pan, so I feel that putting oil in the dough is unnecessary. The ap flour gives a nice but not too open a crumb. This style of pie is not intented to be a very open crumb dough. Also, for that same reason I keep the hydration moderate, no need for this to be an overly wet dough. When I bake mine off we can compare notes. I don't have access to GM Full Strength flour, but All Trumps is available. I have a mountain of flour to use up, but eventually I will give AT a try.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: scott123 on April 25, 2012, 10:02:37 AM
Norma, did you decrease the water to compensate for the lower protein level in the Full Strength?
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 25, 2012, 01:38:36 PM
Norma

Nice pies, could you tell me your bake temperature and time? I have 4 doughs sitting in the fridge that I made yesterday and will use for Thursday nights NFL Draft get together with friends. My doughs are very simple ap flour, water, salt, IDY... no oils or sugars added. I like the texture that ap flour gives on a Sicilian, and see no need for oil. The dough will be spread in a well oiled pan, so I feel that putting oil in the dough is unnecessary. The ap flour gives a nice but not too open a crumb. This style of pie is not intented to be a very open crumb dough. Also, for that same reason I keep the hydration moderate, no need for this to be an overly wet dough. When I bake mine off we can compare notes. I don't have access to GM Full Strength flour, but All Trumps is available. I have a mountain of flour to use up, but eventually I will give AT a try.

Dave,

Your Sicilian pies sounds like they will be delicious.  :) I haven’t been using oil either in the formulation, but haven’t tried AP flour in this thread.  Will be interesting if you try All Trumps flour sometime.  From the formulation I used I didn’t like All Trumps for the Sicilian I made.  Maybe with your formulation All Trumps might work better. 

I baked all my Sicilian pizza in my deck oven around the temperature of about 525 degrees F.  When the pan is placed on the deck the temperatures can vary greatly though.  The baked time is right around 14 minutes.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 25, 2012, 01:43:00 PM
Norma, did you decrease the water to compensate for the lower protein level in the Full Strength?

Scott,

I didn’t decrease the hydration in the formulation I am using because I used a lower protein flour.  The first picture I posted of the flipped dough ball at Reply 126 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg184255.html#msg184255 it can be seen how sticky the bottom of the dough ball was before it was lightly floured.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: scott123 on April 26, 2012, 05:04:13 PM
Norma, you'll probably need to tweak it, but I think a good rule of thumb when going from 14% flour to 12.7% is to drop the hydration by 3%. With less water, this should bake in the same amount of time as the last pizzas without any gum line issues.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 26, 2012, 05:19:17 PM
Norma, you'll probably need to tweak it, but I think a good rule of thumb when going from 14% flour to 12.7% is to drop the hydration by 3%. With less water, this should bake in the same amount of time as the last pizzas without any gum line issues.

Scott,

You may be right that I might need to tweak the hydration down some when using a lower protein flour.  I have played around with different flours in higher hydration doughs like the Pizzarium style Sicilian and know that with enough management of the doughs, good results can be achieved.  I don’t know if that will work in my current formulation though.  I didn't time the last bake, so I don't even know if that bake was the same as before.  Time will tell what will happen.

Thanks for your thoughts.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on April 26, 2012, 09:16:03 PM
Norma,
I know you commented that your Sicilian was a little undercooked, but your crumb appears to have a nice airy structure.  Do you have any plans for giving the GM Full Strength flour another shot or are you moving on with a different flour?

Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 26, 2012, 10:20:25 PM
Norma,
I know you commented that your Sicilian was a little undercooked, but your crumb appears to have a nice airy structure.  Do you have any plans for giving the GM Full Strength flour another shot or are you moving on with a different flour?



Jim,

Not all of the Sicilian pizza had much of a gum layer, but at Reply 131 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg184260.html#msg184260 first picture I think the gum layer can be seen the best.  Near the center of the pie is where the gum layer was there more.  After the reheat of a couple of slices the gum layer seemed to go away.  I have to watch how the cheese browns this coming week and also time the bake.  I do plan on using the same formulation with the GM Full Strength flour again.  I could have made some mistakes along the way, but the crumb was nice and light, so for now I do like the GM Full Strength for a Sicilian pie.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on April 29, 2012, 08:52:03 AM
Norma

I did a round Sicilian style with all purpose flour and a lot of toppings. My bake time was 10 minutes at 500 degrees, then I turned the oven down to 475 and continued for another 12 minutes. I like my pies to take on some color and for the dough to be well cooked. All ovens vary, so these times are not absolutes. Do you know what the protein content of the GM Full Strenght is? I would guess it to be a bit higher then the all purpose flour I used.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 29, 2012, 09:34:48 AM
Norma

I did a round Sicilian style with all purpose flour and a lot of toppings. My bake time was 10 minutes at 500 degrees, then I turned the oven down to 475 and continued for another 12 minutes. I like my pies to take on some color and for the dough to be well cooked. All ovens vary, so these times are not absolutes. Do you know what the protein content of the GM Full Strenght is? I would guess it to be a bit higher then the all purpose flour I used.

Dave,

How did your Sicilian style taste and what kind of formulation did you use?  Thanks for posting your bake times.

If you look at the Master Gluten Mass List that Peter posted, you can see that the GM Full Strength flour is 12.6 +/- 0.3% protein at Reply 70 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg184661.html#msg184661

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on April 29, 2012, 09:43:15 AM
Norma

Taste was outstanding, it was a hybrid style sicilian/sfincione which had Grande sliced mozzarella, caciocavallo cheese, Chees-It crumbs, roasted peppers and hot sausage. It will be on MPM either this or next Monday. My dough was a simple lean dough made with all purpose flour, water, salt, IDY at about 60% hydration. Cold fermented 4 days and pan risen for 5 hours pre-bake. Crust was well cooked and tender. I like this style of pie because it reheats so well, and can be heavily topped if so desired.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 29, 2012, 10:22:52 AM
Norma

Taste was outstanding, it was a hybrid style sicilian/sfincione which had Grande sliced mozzarella, caciocavallo cheese, Chees-It crumbs, roasted peppers and hot sausage. It will be on MPM either this or next Monday. My dough was a simple lean dough made with all purpose flour, water, salt, IDY at about 60% hydration. Cold fermented 4 days and pan risen for 5 hours pre-bake. Crust was well cooked and tender. I like this style of pie because it reheats so well, and can be heavily topped if so desired.

Dave,

Wow, your Sicilian pie sure sounds great!  ;D Love the choice of your dressings too.  I will look for your Sicilian pie on MPM.  I bet cold fermenting the dough for 4 days really gave the crust a great flavor.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on April 29, 2012, 11:01:30 AM
 Norma

I seldom ever make pizza without cold fermenting my doughs for at least a couple of days. I make lean dough, so it needs time for the yeast to break down the starch components of the flour so there are enough sugars present for proper color on the crust. Naturally, flavor also has time to develop. I get a kick out of people who say they cold ferment overnight, of for a day. That's not enough time, might as well not even bother! ;)
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 29, 2012, 12:26:28 PM
Norma

I seldom ever make pizza without cold fermenting my doughs for at least a couple of days. I make lean dough, so it needs time for the yeast to break down the starch components of the flour so there are enough sugars present for proper color on the crust. Naturally, flavor also has time to develop. I get a kick out of people who say they cold ferment overnight, of for a day. That's not enough time, might as well not even bother! ;)

Dave,

I also like the taste of crusts from doughs that have been fermented for a few days.   :)

In attempting this different Sicilian pizza for market, I am almost limited to a one day cold ferment.  I would have to start the dough on a Friday otherwise, and sure couldn’t watch how the dough ferments over the weekend, because I don’t have access to market over the weekend.  If I was just doing what I am attempting at home, things would be a lot more different.  So far the taste of the Sicilian crusts have been decent.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on April 29, 2012, 12:31:25 PM
Norma

Don't worry about watching the doughs, if they're in a refridgerator they will be fine. I often go between 2-5 days, just make my dough and stash it in the fridge. It won't over ferment under those conditions, it's too cold for much to happen. Most of the rise will occur once you take the doughs out of the cold.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 29, 2012, 12:43:42 PM
Norma

Don't worry about watching the doughs, if they're in a refridgerator they will be fine. I often go between 2-5 days, just make my dough and stash it in the fridge. It won't over ferment under those conditions, it's too cold for much to happen. Most of the rise will occur once you take the doughs out of the cold.

Dave,

I might try your approach for next week and lower the amount of IDY some to see what happens.  I would hate to have overblown dough balls for a Tuesday. 

Thanks for your help!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on April 29, 2012, 12:48:48 PM
Norma

My dough was about 3 1/2 cups of flour with a scant teaspoon of IDY. Hope that gives you a starting point. I make my doughs with cool water, let them sit at room temp for a half hour after mixing, then put them directly into the fridge. Give it a try at home and see what happens, adjust as need be.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 29, 2012, 12:59:44 PM
Norma

My dough was about 3 1/2 cups of flour with a scant teaspoon of IDY. Hope that gives you a starting point. I make my doughs with cool water, let them sit at room temp for a half hour after mixing, then put them directly into the fridge. Give it a try at home and see what happens, adjust as need be.

Dave,

Thanks for telling me what you started with for your dough.  :) I will try making the dough with cold water and letting it sit out at room temperature for about a half an hour after mixing.  Will start the experiment on Friday.  At least at home I will be able to watch how the dough ferments.  I have to decide the amount of IDY yeast to add to the formulation I have been trying.  I am not sure how much IDY to add for a 4 day cold ferment.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 30, 2012, 10:10:28 AM
I burned the midnight oil to make another Sicilian attempt, because my granddaughter and family came to visit last evening after their trip from Florida.  I thought since I am attempting another dough Friday to start a Sicilian dough, what would it matter if I made the dough late last night.  Dough ball this morning.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on April 30, 2012, 10:22:03 AM
Norma

Do you plan on cold fermenting this dough until Friday and then using it on Friday for a pizza?
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 30, 2012, 10:40:30 AM
Norma

Do you plan on cold fermenting this dough until Friday and then using it on Friday for a pizza?

Dave,

No, I don't plan on cold fermenting this dough until Friday.  I usually have been making the dough on a Monday for Tuesday.  I want to make all my doughs in the deck oven because that is where I will try to sell the Sicilian pies.  I will start a new experiment on Friday for next Tuesday.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on April 30, 2012, 11:18:27 AM
Norma

OK, I wish you luck with your Sicilian, hope it's a big seller. I've been making a lot more thick/Sicilian style pies lately, I like the fact that reheat much better then thinner pies. I make a big Sicilian, make a meal out of it, and then I have pizza for a lunch or snack for several days later.  ;D   Keep me posted on your progress, I think we can get to a point where you can prepare your doughs several days in advance and use as needed. I still have a dough in the fridge that I made on Tuesday afternoon. I will probably cook it off either tonight or tomorrow afternoon. I am confident it will rise and be tasty. :chef:
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Pete-zza on April 30, 2012, 12:12:21 PM
Dave,

As noted at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18407.msg178948.html#msg178948, Norma's situation is unique. Also, as she noted in Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18407.msg178960.html#msg178960, to try a four day cold fermented dough, she would have to keep her pizza prep fridge on besides her deli case, which she did want to do because of high electricity usage/cost.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 30, 2012, 06:49:48 PM
Norma

OK, I wish you luck with your Sicilian, hope it's a big seller. I've been making a lot more thick/Sicilian style pies lately, I like the fact that reheat much better then thinner pies. I make a big Sicilian, make a meal out of it, and then I have pizza for a lunch or snack for several days later.  ;D   Keep me posted on your progress, I think we can get to a point where you can prepare your doughs several days in advance and use as needed. I still have a dough in the fridge that I made on Tuesday afternoon. I will probably cook it off either tonight or tomorrow afternoon. I am confident it will rise and be tasty. :chef:

Dave,

Thanks for the wishes that you hope if I get a Sicilian pizza right it would be a good seller.  Sicilian pizzas are Steve’s favorites pizzas.  Steve told me after my attempt at a cracker-style he wouldn’t eat any more of my cracker-style attempts.  :-D  Maybe I could make the Sicilian doughs a few days ahead. 

Good luck with your Sicilian pizza from the other dough.  I saw your Sicilian pizza on MPM and it looks delicious!  :chef:

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 30, 2012, 06:58:35 PM
Peter,

If I did a four day cold ferment of some Sicilian doughs, it might be okay because I do have some room in my deli case that is kept on all the time.  I just don’t have enough room for all the NY style doughs I would need to make for a Tuesday, because I also have cheeses, sodas, and other stuff in the deli case.  You are right that I don’t want to have to turn on my pizza prep fridge and let it on all week because of high electricity usage/cost.  Sorry to confuse you and thanks for the link about my situation at market to explain why I have so many problems trying to make different doughs.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on April 30, 2012, 09:09:57 PM
Norma,
After reading through Peter post above, are you only firing on Tues or are you making pies Tues through Fri? After reading the post, I am just curious if you could utilize a refrigerated flour and water soaker (no yeast or salt) for your Tues pies to give you the flavor development that you are looking for, and then on Monday, if you could make a quick dough out of the F&W soaker for Tues.
In any case, I am looking forward to the results of your Sicilian tomorrow.
Good luck (which judging by your previous result, I don't think your going to need)
Jim
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Pete-zza on April 30, 2012, 09:41:44 PM
Jim,

If you are thinking about the methods used by Philippe Gosselin, that crossed my mind earlier today. However, I have never investigated that approach before. My recollection is that the Gosselin flour and water dough was refrigerated overnight and the final dough completed the next day and fermented at room temperature. If Norma were to use that approach, she would most likely have to make the flour and water dough on Friday and hold it in her deli case until Monday, at which time the final dough would be made. I have no idea as to proportions/ratios and ingredient quantities. I have only seen Gosselin's approach for baguettes, as practiced and described by Peter Reinhart.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on April 30, 2012, 09:42:06 PM
Norma,
After reading through Peter post above, are you only firing on Tues or are you making pies Tues through Fri? After reading the post, I am just curious if you could utilize a refrigerated flour and water soaker (no yeast or salt) for your Tues pies to give you the flavor development that you are looking for, and then on Monday, if you could make a quick dough out of the F&W soaker for Tues.
In any case, I am looking forward to the results of your Sicilian tomorrow.
Good luck (which judging by your previous result, I don't think your going to need)
Jim

Jim,

I am only firing and making pizzas on Tuesdays because that is the only day market is open.  I have no idea what a refrigerated flour and water soaker would do, or how to go about making one.  Could you explain what the process is?  I am always looking for better flavors in any of my crusts.

Thanks for the good luck for tomorrow!  :)

Norma

Sorry Peter, I posted before I read your post.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 01, 2012, 12:01:20 AM
 
Quote
If you are thinking about the methods used by Philippe Gosselin, that crossed my mind earlier today. However, I have never investigated that approach before.
Peter and Norma,
That is exactly what I am thinking of.  This may be a better question directed at Tom Lehmann, but I do not see any reason why a flour and water soaker could not be held for 4 days in a deli-fridge without negative side effects. I have certainly held yeasted doughs longer than this.  I am not certain about the proportions as I have never contemplated this for pizza, only bread. However, I would think that starting with a 25% soaker (from total flour weight) should offer more than enough flavor to gauge where to go next.

Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2012, 07:07:51 AM
Peter and Norma,
That is exactly what I am thinking of.  This may be a better question directed at Tom Lehmann, but I do not see any reason why a flour and water soaker could not be held for 4 days in a deli-fridge without negative side effects. I have certainly held yeasted doughs longer than this.  I am not certain about the proportions as I have never contemplated this for pizza, only bread. However, I would think that starting with a 25% soaker (from total flour weight) should offer more than enough flavor to gauge where to go next.



Jim,

Thanks for posting that the method of the flour and water soaker where the Philippe Gosselin method.  I can’t imagine why a cold flour and water soaker would do more to a dough, but looked at some searches on the web and found some interesting results.  I don’t know if Philippe Gosselin’s method has ever been tried on pizza before. 

Thanks also for posting that you might start with a 25% soaker from the total flour weight.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 01, 2012, 10:41:20 AM
Quote
I can’t imagine why a cold flour and water soaker would do more to a dough...

Water is necessary to activate the enzymes naturally found in flour which can then start to break down sugars, proteins and lipids, independent of yeast activity. However, it does take some time for this process to take place to allow the flavors to develop. I do not think the flavor is going to be the same as your preferment doughs, but it should not be off-putting either. Then again, I, too, have never heard of this method being used for pizza, so if you decide to try it the results should be pretty interesting, to say the least. 
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Pete-zza on May 01, 2012, 11:28:33 AM
Jim and Norma,

I originally became aware of the Gosselin method, but not by that name, some time ago, at the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7770.msg66722.html#msg66722. In that thread, which contains a lot of good technical stuff, one of our members, djones148, used a combination of a soaker dough (he used the term autolyse for the dough), a preferment, and other ingredients to make the final dough. In that case, the dough was used to make pizza. At the time, my interest in the Gosselin method was more in respect of somehow modifying the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation to utilize the Gosselin soaker dough method. Of course, the same method could be used to make a Sicilian style dough. In both case, however, some experimentation would be required.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2012, 10:13:50 PM
Water is necessary to activate the enzymes naturally found in flour which can then start to break down sugars, proteins and lipids, independent of yeast activity. However, it does take some time for this process to take place to allow the flavors to develop. I do not think the flavor is going to be the same as your preferment doughs, but it should not be off-putting either. Then again, I, too, have never heard of this method being used for pizza, so if you decide to try it the results should be pretty interesting, to say the least. 

Jim,

Thanks for posting that water is necessary to activate the enzymes naturally found in flour which can then start to break down sugars, proteins and lipids.  If I can figure out how to give your method an attempt I might try it.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2012, 10:17:37 PM
Jim and Norma,

I originally became aware of the Gosselin method, but not by that name, some time ago, at the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7770.msg66722.html#msg66722. In that thread, which contains a lot of good technical stuff, one of our members, djones148, used a combination of a soaker dough (he used the term autolyse for the dough), a preferment, and other ingredients to make the final dough. In that case, the dough was used to make pizza. At the time, my interest in the Gosselin method was more in respect of somehow modifying the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation to utilize the Gosselin soaker dough method. Of course, the same method could be used to make a Sicilian style dough. In both case, however, some experimentation would be required.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for the link to where you originally became aware of the Gosselin method.  I have read over the thread quickly, but will have to read over it again tomorrow when I have time to understand it better.  Too much technical information for me to understand tonight. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2012, 10:21:32 AM
Using the exact same formulation as before with the GM Full Strength flour, this attempt was the best so far.  The things I did differently were to bake for 15 ˝ minutes as timed on the stopwatch of my cell phone, placed the sauce randomly on the cheese, added some cheddar to the blends of mozzarellas and used less oil to oil the steel pan.  There was no gum line this time and the taste, tenderness and moisture of the crust was very good.  When tasting a slice my taste testers and I got the nice taste of cheeses with some sauce in almost every bite.  I think maybe I would add a little more corn oil to the pan in a future attempt.  The last picture is after the remainder of the pie sat out for about 5 hrs.  The crust was still moist and tender without a reheat.  I guess these slices could be sold cold.  We liked the addition of some mild cheddar cheese.  The dough was opened when it was cold and then left to proof for 1 ˝ hrs with the metal lid on the blue steel pan at room temperature on top of the deck oven.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2012, 10:22:33 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2012, 10:23:30 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2012, 10:24:19 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2012, 10:25:08 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2012, 10:25:54 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2012, 10:27:53 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 02, 2012, 10:37:45 AM
Looks great Norma. So do you think you are ready to bring this one to market yet or do you feel you have more work with the formula to do?
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 02, 2012, 10:52:29 AM
Norma
Regarding where to start with the soaker. If you are interested, I calculated a new dough recipe (using the preferment calculator) using a 25% flour and water soaker by total flour weight using your current dough recipe (adjusted for 2% bowl residual). In short, I would treat the soaker like any other starter regarding its mixing, storage and incorporation into your final dough. The only difference is that the yeast will be added to the final dough on Monday and not to the soaker made Thurs.  In fact, I may mix one up myself to be used this weekend. I am kind of curious how much of a flavor a soak will impart in the absence of yeast.

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    522.5 g  |  18.43 oz | 1.15 lbs
Water (67%):    350.08 g  |  12.35 oz | 0.77 lbs
Salt (1.95%):    10.19 g | 0.36 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.12 tsp | 0.71 tbsp
IDY (.4%):    2.09 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
Total (169.35%):   884.86 g | 31.21 oz | 1.95 lbs | TF = 0.153

Preferment Soaker:
Flour:    65.31 g | 2.3 oz | 0.14 lbs
Water:    65.31 g | 2.3 oz | 0.14 lbs
Total:    130.63 g | 4.61 oz | 0.29 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    457.19 g | 16.13 oz | 1.01 lbs
Water:    284.76 g | 10.04 oz | 0.63 lbs
Salt:    10.19 g | 0.36 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.12 tsp | 0.71 tbsp
IDY:    2.09 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
Preferment:    130.63 g | 4.61 oz | 0.29 lbs
Total:    884.86 g | 31.21 oz | 1.95 lbs  | TF = 0.153
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Pete-zza on May 02, 2012, 11:16:39 AM
Jim,

That looks like a good starting point. I was also wondering what the dough would be like if it all of the formula flour and water were allowed to "nonferment" for the entire period, say, from Friday afternoon to Monday morning (when the final mix would take place). Would the amylase and other enzymes produce a lot more sugar and would the proteolytic enzymes and acids destroy the gluten structure? The latter is something I once encountered with a yeasted dough with a long room temperature ferment (around 16 hours) at a high Texas summer room temperature of around 80 degrees F. I ended up having to do a reball and, for the next effort, I reduced the formula hydration by several percent to compensate for the release of the water by the action of the protease enzymes (and maybe the acids).

Peter
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 02, 2012, 11:50:45 AM
Quote
That looks like a good starting point. I was also wondering what the dough would be like if it all of the formula flour and water were allowed to "nonferment" for the entire period, say, from Friday afternoon to Monday morning (when the final mix would take place). Would the amylase and other enzymes produce a lot more sugar and would the proteolytic enzymes and acids destroy the gluten structure?
Peter,
I wish I knew for sure. Enzyme concentrations and temp are the main factors influencing enzyme kinetics (the speed/rate at which a chemical reaction will occur). At higher temps e.g. 80F, enzymes and molecules are more active and I would expect the break-down of the gluten and starches to occur at a much faster rate than if one was to refrigerate the mixture at say 40F. How long it would take to fully break these mixture down at both temps and how much of the enzymes are present standard white flour, I have no clue?
I know that many people on this forum have held yeasted dough past 10 days under ten days so I would suspect in the absence of yeast or a SD starter, that it could go long than this. Without the acidity from the starters, however, I would suspect that the mixture might spoil at some point during the process.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2012, 12:38:06 PM
Looks great Norma. So do you think you are ready to bring this one to market yet or do you feel you have more work with the formula to do?

Jim,

From the thoughts of my taste testers yesterday. I thought about trying to start to sell the Sicilian pizza this coming week.  I had customers (I posted about on another thread of mine) and the one man does own a pizza business in Linglestown, Pa., but he was originally from Brooklyn, NY.  He told me my Sicilian pizza was better than any he had tried in Brooklyn, including L&B Spumoni Gardens.  I highly doubt that but that is what he said.  :-D


Norma
Regarding where to start with the soaker. If you are interested, I calculated a new dough recipe (using the preferment calculator) using a 25% flour and water soaker by total flour weight using your current dough recipe (adjusted for 2% bowl residual). In short, I would treat the soaker like any other starter regarding its mixing, storage and incorporation into your final dough. The only difference is that the yeast will be added to the final dough on Monday and not to the soaker made Thurs.  In fact, I may mix one up myself to be used this weekend. I am kind of curious how much of a flavor a soak will impart in the absence of yeast.

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    522.5 g  |  18.43 oz | 1.15 lbs
Water (67%):    350.08 g  |  12.35 oz | 0.77 lbs
Salt (1.95%):    10.19 g | 0.36 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.12 tsp | 0.71 tbsp
IDY (.4%):    2.09 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
Total (169.35%):   884.86 g | 31.21 oz | 1.95 lbs | TF = 0.153

Preferment Soaker:
Flour:    65.31 g | 2.3 oz | 0.14 lbs
Water:    65.31 g | 2.3 oz | 0.14 lbs
Total:    130.63 g | 4.61 oz | 0.29 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    457.19 g | 16.13 oz | 1.01 lbs
Water:    284.76 g | 10.04 oz | 0.63 lbs
Salt:    10.19 g | 0.36 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.12 tsp | 0.71 tbsp
IDY:    2.09 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
Preferment:    130.63 g | 4.61 oz | 0.29 lbs
Total:    884.86 g | 31.21 oz | 1.95 lbs  | TF = 0.153


I am always interested in trying a new dough.  ;D Thank you so much for setting forth a formulation for me to try.  I will try it starting Friday.  I also am very curious how much of a flavor the soak will impart in the absence of yeast.  I appreciate your help in trying to take my Sicilian pizza to the next level.  I will be interested in your results if you decide to also mix one up yourself.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 02, 2012, 01:15:04 PM
Norma

I will be interested in following along, I might even make a dough myself. I don't have the same flour as you, but I think I can formulate a very close approximation by combine some ap flour with some GM Better for Bread flour. I will say that I feel that 67% hydration is too high for this dough, however I'll try one at 67 and another in the range I am comfortable with. Will be interesting to see the results, I've been making a lot of Sicilian/thick pan style pies lately so I have a good base for comparison.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 02, 2012, 01:31:08 PM
Just did a little research and found that GM Full Strenght is considered a bread flour with a protein rating of 12.6%, incase anyone else may be interested in following along.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2012, 01:56:50 PM
Norma

I will be interested in following along, I might even make a dough myself. I don't have the same flour as you, but I think I can formulate a very close approximation by combine some ap flour with some GM Better for Bread flour. I will say that I feel that 67% hydration is too high for this dough, however I'll try one at 67 and another in the range I am comfortable with. Will be interesting to see the results, I've been making a lot of Sicilian/thick pan style pies lately so I have a good base for comparison.

Dave,

Sure would be interesting if you followed along!   ;D  Are you going to try Jim's soaker method too?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 02, 2012, 07:32:46 PM
Just made my up my 25% soaker and following Norma's recipe for her Sicilian (for a 10x15 in pan). I will mix the final dough on Sat and try to bake it off on Sun.

Total Formula:
Flour KAAP (100%):    384.19 g  |  13.55 oz | 0.85 lbs
Water (67%):    257.41 g  |  9.08 oz | 0.57 lbs
Salt (1.95%):    7.49 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.56 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
IDY (.4%):    1.54 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Total (169.35%):   650.63 g | 22.95 oz | 1.43 lbs | TF = 0.153

Preferment: Soaker:
Flour KAAP:    48.02 g | 1.69 oz | 0.11 lbs
Water:    48.02 g | 1.69 oz | 0.11 lbs
Total:    96.05 g | 3.39 oz | 0.21 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour KAAP:    336.17 g | 11.86 oz | 0.74 lbs
Water:    209.39 g | 7.39 oz | 0.46 lbs
Salt:    7.49 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.56 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
IDY:    1.54 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Preferment:    96.05 g | 3.39 oz | 0.21 lbs
Total:    650.63 g | 22.95 oz | 1.43 lbs  | TF = 0.153


Quote
He told me my Sicilian pizza was better than any he had tried in Brooklyn, including L&B Spumoni Gardens.
If it tastes anything like it looks Norma, I would be inclined to agree.  :chef:
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2012, 08:08:49 PM
Just made my up my 25% soaker and following Norma's recipe for her Sicilian (for a 10x15 in pan). I will mix the final dough on Sat and try to bake it off on Sun.

Total Formula:
Flour KAAP (100%):    384.19 g  |  13.55 oz | 0.85 lbs
Water (67%):    257.41 g  |  9.08 oz | 0.57 lbs
Salt (1.95%):    7.49 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.56 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
IDY (.4%):    1.54 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Total (169.35%):   650.63 g | 22.95 oz | 1.43 lbs | TF = 0.153

Preferment: Soaker:
Flour KAAP:    48.02 g | 1.69 oz | 0.11 lbs
Water:    48.02 g | 1.69 oz | 0.11 lbs
Total:    96.05 g | 3.39 oz | 0.21 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour KAAP:    336.17 g | 11.86 oz | 0.74 lbs
Water:    209.39 g | 7.39 oz | 0.46 lbs
Salt:    7.49 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.56 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
IDY:    1.54 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Preferment:    96.05 g | 3.39 oz | 0.21 lbs
Total:    650.63 g | 22.95 oz | 1.43 lbs  | TF = 0.153

If it tastes anything like it looks Norma, I would be inclined to agree.  :chef:

Jim,

Wow, you made your soaker dough already.  Will really be looking forward to your results!  I am really curious  how a soaker will work out with the formulation I am using.  Wish I could be there to taste your pie.  ;D

I have tasted L&B Spumoni Gardens pies and they are a little drier and a little more dense than the crumbs of the recent attempted pizza I made.  That was only one mans opinion of my pizza, so I wouldn’t take it necessarily to mean mine was better.  Maybe that man liked a higher hydration dough better, or maybe the dressings on my pizza better.  I also have no idea of when the last time the man tasted a pie at L&B Spumoni Gardens.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 02, 2012, 08:59:00 PM
Norma,
You kind of gave me an excuse to try my hands at a Sicilian this weekend and I am kind of curious what this soaker method will yield. I am not sure how it will turn out, but here's hoping.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2012, 09:29:45 PM
Norma,
You kind of gave me an excuse to try my hands at a Sicilian this weekend and I am kind of curious what this soaker method will yield. I am not sure how it will turn out, but here's hoping.

Jim,

Good to hear I kind of gave you an excuse to try a Sicilian this weekend.  I hope the soaker method will make a great pizza.  There is always something to be learned in doing experiments. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 03, 2012, 07:52:09 AM
Jim or anyone that is interested,

I just wanted to show this post on someone’s blog if anyone is interested in maybe trying a soaker with Einkorn flour (whole grain). http://breadmakingblog.breadexperience.com/2012/04/einkorn-and-olive-oil-pizza-dough.html  The pizza looks good to me, but I never tried the Einkorn flour, but had posted about maybe trying it before on the Pizzarium thread.  This use of a soaker and biga sounds different.  It sounds like this dough would be a high hydration dough if extra bread flour wasn’t added.  Maybe it could be a Sicilian pizza if it were made in a pan.  Looks to me like this blogger has some different pizza methods.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 03, 2012, 09:20:04 AM
Norma & Jimmy

I plan on following along, I'll make the exact recipe that Jimmy outlines above. I don't usually make soakers for pizza dough, I feel that my long, cold ferments accomplish much the same results (more flavor) and to a much greater degree. I also feel the hydration is too high, these pies are not baked at the temperatures typical of Neapolitan style pies and I don't feel that the high hydration adds anything to the final product. However, for experimental reasons I will do exactly as Jimmy has outlined. Please varify that you bake in a 10"x15" rectangular pan, and can you also varify the temperature at which you will bake.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 03, 2012, 09:46:34 AM
Norma & Jimmy

My search reveals that the protein rating for KAAP is 11.7%, while GM Full STrength is 12.6%. These flours aren't really the same, I think we should reach some common ground  before we go forward.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 03, 2012, 10:25:09 AM
Norma & Jimmy

I plan on following along, I'll make the exact recipe that Jimmy outlines above. I don't usually make soakers for pizza dough, I feel that my long, cold ferments accomplish much the same results (more flavor) and to a much greater degree. I also feel the hydration is too high, these pies are not baked at the temperatures typical of Neapolitan style pies and I don't feel that the high hydration adds anything to the final product. However, for experimental reasons I will do exactly as Jimmy has outlined. Please varify that you bake in a 10"x15" rectangular pan, and can you also varify the temperature at which you will bake.

Dave,

Glad to hear you also will be following along with Jim’s soaker Sicilian pie!  I believe your longer cold ferment does give you the better flavors in your crust without a soaker.  

I even forgot to look at what size steel pan Jim posted the soaker formulation for.  I thought about it a little now. and since my steel pans are at market now, and I can’t really remember what exact sizes they are, then I searched the forum for when I purchased my steel pans.  My post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16473.msg160865.html#msg160865 tells me my sizes of steel pans to try are either 8”x10” or the one I have been trying which is 12”x17”.  I will have to figure out Jim’s formulation to try in either of my steel pans.

As far as a higher hydration in a Sicilian pie, I have found I do like higher hydrations.  When I was doing experiments on the Pizzarium thread I liked those higher hydrations, although I wasn’t consistent in my bakes.  Higher hydrations may not be for everyone though.  

My bake temperaturess will be about 525 degrees F, or a little variation depending on how my deck oven hearth temperature really are.  


Norma & Jimmy

My search reveals that the protein rating for KAAP is 11.7%, while GM Full STrength is 12.6%. These flours aren't really the same, I think we should reach some common ground  before we go forward.

What do you suggest about the use of the different flours?  What kind of different flours do you have on hand at home?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 03, 2012, 11:05:14 AM
Norma

Since Jimmy already has his soaker started using KAAP, I will also use that or a very similar flour. I prefer ap over bread flour for this style, so this works for me. Your GM Full Strenght flour is definitely a bread flour as opposed to an ap. Perhaps that is why you are using higher hyrdation, I don't feel that ap flour needs the 67% you are using with your bread flour. I stilll feel that anything we discover while using KAAP flour will not neseccarily translate to your dough if you are using a different flour. Perhaps you might like to make two doughs, one with your GM flour and one with KAAP. Then you will accurately be able to compare the two. I still stand on my contention that the soaker won't do anything more for the dough then a 3 day cold ferment would.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 03, 2012, 11:18:21 AM
Norma

Since Jimmy already has his soaker started using KAAP, I will also use that or a very similar flour. I prefer ap over bread flour for this style, so this works for me. Your GM Full Strenght flour is definitely a bread flour as opposed to an ap. Perhaps that is why you are using higher hyrdation, I don't feel that ap flour needs the 67% you are using with your bread flour. I stilll feel that anything we discover while using KAAP flour will not neseccarily translate to your dough if you are using a different flour. Perhaps you might like to make two doughs, one with your GM flour and one with KAAP. Then you will accurately be able to compare the two. I still stand on my contention that the soaker won't do anything more for the dough then a 3 day cold ferment would.

Dave,

I also can make another dough with KAAP since I have that at home.  Since I am going to be making two doughs I will use my small steel pans.  I don’t really think that will matter, but sure don’t know.  Are you still going to be trying 67% hydration with KAAP?  I would think if using KAAP there might need to be some stretches and folds if the hydration is going to stay at 67%.  I believe you are right that the soaker won’t do anything more than a dough than a dough that has a 3 day cold ferment.  It is always interesting to experiment though to see what the results might be.

Norma 
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 03, 2012, 11:25:44 AM
Norma

Yes, I will go 67%percent with the KAAP. I am curious to see the result. I have a feeling that the dough will be gummy if cooked at your 525 degrees for 15 minutes. I will also make a dough with KAAP at a lower hydration so I can compare.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 03, 2012, 11:40:52 AM
Norma

Yes, I will go 67%percent with the KAAP. I am curious to see the result. I have a feeling that the dough will be gummy if cooked at your 525 degrees for 15 minutes. I will also make a dough with KAAP at a lower hydration so I can compare.

Dave,

Since you are going with 67% hydration with KAAP I will too.  Best of luck in both of your experiments!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 03, 2012, 01:12:29 PM
Norma and David,
The formula I created for Norma's soaker and Sicilian in post 176 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg185483.html#msg185483 is based on her formula from here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg178345.html#msg178345  (minus the sugar ;D). I am using the exact same formula, I only changing around the pan size (10x15) to accommodate my smaller pan.

I do not think it necessary to find the same pan size, use what what works best in your situation. I don't feel it is necessary to stick with the same flour or formula for that mater (if you want to that is great) or temp (I bake off my Sicilians between 525-550F depending on my mood). I think we have all played around with enough quick doughs, overnight doughs, and various starters, temps, and formulas in the past to be able to notice any changes in quality.

For myself, I what I am wanting to get out of this is: does the dough flavor improve by using a soaker? Does the soaker effect dough quality? If I was to try this again, would I use more or less of a soaker? And would this be a manageable way for Norma to add more flavor to her Tues pizzas if she does not want to fool around with a preferment?
Which ever direction you both take, good luck.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 03, 2012, 02:30:34 PM
Jimmyg

I have a 10"x15" pan so I'll follow along with you at that size. Are you keeping your soaker at room temp, or are you refridgerating it. If it stays out at room temp for several days, we may have a sourdough statrted! Give a a rundown on your workflow and timetable, I'll experiment along with an ap version and a bread flour version. I'll also do a control dough which will be my stardard Sicilian dough made with a 3 day cold ferment rather then a soaker.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 03, 2012, 03:52:39 PM
David,
 I am roughly following what Norma might do, given her situation. I will mix up the soaker and let it sit in the fridge (40F) for roughly 72h, mix the soaker into my final dough after 72h and refrigerate the final dough overnight before baking. I will probably let the dough warm up for 2-3h before the bake.
I look forward to seeing how your two doughs compare.

Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 03, 2012, 06:10:53 PM
Jim,

I am going to take your approach but will use smaller pans.  I am also using two doughs, one with KAAP and one with GM Full Strength.  I also will use the formulation I have used this past week and make a larger Sicilian.  I also want to know what happens in a 3 day cold ferment of the soakers.  I wonder if any wild yeast can be in the flour or in the air and affect the outcome over a 3 day period of a soaker.   

Thanks again for your help!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Ev on May 04, 2012, 08:32:07 AM
Very interesting experiment. I'm looking forward to tasting the results! :-D
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 04, 2012, 11:55:49 AM
Very interesting experiment. I'm looking forward to tasting the results! :-D

Steve,

Glad you think the soaker method is an interesting experiment.  You will be taste testing the final results.  I know you love Sicilian pizzas, so this week will be your week!   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 05, 2012, 09:14:39 AM
This is the formulation I used for the KAAP and GM Full Strength flours for the soaker as the preferments for the 8”x10” blue steel pans. My small scale was used to weigh out the flour and water for the soakers. I made the two soakers for the final dough after I returned from market yesterday and also mixed the same formulation I have been using for the Sicilian dough.  I used the same amount of IDY, but thought I would try to get a lower dough temperature to try a 3 day cold ferment, so I used cold water out of the fridge.  The final dough temperature was 72.7 degrees F.  I used the same mixing method as before.

Picture of the 2 soakers that are in the fridge for 4 days, before the final doughs are made, and the regular Sicilian dough ball that is going to be cold fermented for 4 days.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 05, 2012, 03:05:03 PM
This morning I made up my Sicilian dough following the formula previously outlined.  I decided to use the food processor today for the mixing, 25 pulses total till the dough was mixed and showing some moderate gluten development. My final dough temp after mixing was 73.4F. Regarding the soaker, I noticed that it did taste moderately sweet and nutty, and not like a plain flour and water paste. The soaker showed no signs of breaking down after 4 days. I did see a few air bubbles in the soaker but there were not enough to tell if it was due to any sort of flora or just residual air bubbles in the soaker
I am not sure what time I am going to bake tomorrow, so I will either follow-up tomorrow night or Monday morning.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 05, 2012, 03:46:22 PM
Jim,

It is very interesting that you noticed the soaker did taste moderately sweet and nutty and not like plain flour and water after they are mixed.  I wonder if that will affect the final taste of the crust.

Will be looking forward to your results.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 06, 2012, 11:27:22 PM
Tonight I baked off Norma’s Sicilian with 25% soaker added in. The sauce was an uncooked tomato sauce and cheeses were a blend of fresh mozz pearls (not marshmallows) and young pecorino. The pie was baked off at 550F.

Getting straight to business, I found that the soaker did not add a strong flavor, as with some preferments. However, the addition of the soaker was noticeable without being bready. It imparted a slightly sweet, nutty and mature flavor only achieved through a long and low temp fermentation. Is this a flavor improvement on the quick doughs or overnight doughs? Absolutely.

 As shown in the photos below, I found no noticeable defects crust due to the addition of the soaker. The dough had an open hole structure and was light and airy.

Would I say that it is superior to a preferment methods using yeast, probably not? I will let Norma and David comment further about those aspects, as they are both using direct comparison methods with preferment doughs.  However, I do think this dough had a demonstrably mature flavor, with no noticeable consequences to the structure or texture of the crust.

As a final comment, Norma this formula of yours rocks. L&B’s can eat their heart out, this is one of the best tasting Sicilians I’ve had, seriously. With or without the soaker, this is my new “go to” Sicilian recipe.  Fantastic job getting this far, your customers are going to love this pie, and I can’t wait to see what your findings are.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2012, 12:00:45 AM
Tonight I baked off Norma’s Sicilian with 25% soaker added in. The sauce was an uncooked tomato sauce and cheeses were a blend of fresh mozz pearls (not marshmallows) and young pecorino. The pie was baked off at 550F.

Getting straight to business, I found that the soaker did not add a strong flavor, as with some preferments. However, the addition of the soaker was noticeable without being bready. It imparted a slightly sweet, nutty and mature flavor only achieved through a long and low temp fermentation. Is this a flavor improvement on the quick doughs or overnight doughs? Absolutely.

 As shown in the photos below, I found no noticeable defects crust due to the addition of the soaker. The dough had an open hole structure and was light and airy.

Would I say that it is superior to a preferment methods using yeast, probably not? I will let Norma and David comment further about those aspects, as they are both using direct comparison methods with preferment doughs.  However, I do think this dough had a demonstrably mature flavor, with no noticeable consequences to the structure or texture of the crust.

As a final comment, Norma this formula of yours rocks. L&B’s can eat their heart out, this is one of the best tasting Sicilians I’ve had, seriously. With or without the soaker, this is my new “go to” Sicilian recipe.  Fantastic job getting this far, your customers are going to love this pie, and I can’t wait to see what your findings are.

Jim,

I sure was anxious to see how your bake went.  I find your results very interesting when using a soaker with the formulation I have been using.  I wonder why the soaker imparts a slightly sweet, nutty and mature flavor.  That is great news!

I can see how light and airy your Sicilian pie was.  Looks terrific!  ;D I am glad you found a new “go to” Sicilian recipe. 

Thanks so much for doing the test and coming up with the idea to use a soaker.  :)

What kind of oil did you add to oil your pan?  Your bottom crust looks really good.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 07, 2012, 08:19:52 AM
Thanks for the kind words Norma. I would suspect that the flavors imparted from the soaker are due to enzymatic activity and the break down starches and proteins in the flour and water mixture over several days. In the absence IDY or even a sourdough culture, I am guessing that the true flavors coming from the grain were able to shine through.  

The oil I used was a 3 to 1 mixture of safflower and olive oil.  Safflower is relatively bland tasting and has a higher smoking point than other oils, so it doesn't break down as easily under high heat. When mixed with the olive oil, I can retain the olive flavor that I enjoy while cooking at higher heats.
I am looking forward to hear your thoughts about the soaker and how it compares to the preferment.

Jim
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2012, 08:36:12 AM
Jim,

Thanks for explaining why you think the soaker gave the crust a different taste.

I might have to try a blend of safflower and olive oil at some point to oil the pans.
   
I am anxious to see how the bakes go tomorrow since you posted your results.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 07, 2012, 08:43:43 AM
Jimmyg

Thanks for the update, glad you enjoy your Sicilian, a style which often takes a back seat here at the pizza forum. I'm a little behind on this experiment simply because I just can't eat enough pizza to keep up. I still have leftovers from last week, so later today I will make my soakers and begin the journey.  I might have missed it, but can you tell me how long your bake time was? I apparently cook my Sicilians a little longer then most, my time is usually around 22 at 475=500. I also get a little more darkening on my doughs. I use a very heavy Chicago Metallics pan, one which appears to be both darker and thicker then the one you picture in your above photos. Your crumb structure is slightly more open then mine, the believe that is because you hydration is slightly higher and the fact that you used a food processor. Doughs prepared in a food processor typically will get better rise then my hand mixing because the dough is receiving much greater aeration with the food processor. Aeration greatly enhances fermentation.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 07, 2012, 10:10:18 AM
dmc,
Thanks. I completely agree with you, the Sicilian often take a back seat to most other styles. In my opinion, it is arguably one of the most difficult pizza styles to master and also one of the most delicious pizza styles when properly executed.

Regrettably, I did not time this this bake. I thought about it half way through the baking process but by that time it was too late. I would ball park this bake between 13-16 mins but don't hold me to this number.

Normally, I do all my mixing by hand too. However, I was making bialys, as well as two other pies and I was feeling lazy so I let the machine do all the work for me. 

Don't worry about being behind. When you get to it, let us know how it turned out. I would hate to burn you out on pizza.

Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2012, 10:56:16 AM
The regular formulation that I usually use for the Sicilian pie with a one day ferment, looks like it is fermenting okay for a 4 day cold ferment even with the same amount of IDY.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2012, 10:59:27 AM
The two soakers, one with KAAP and one with GM Full Strength flour, both tasted a little sweet and nutty, like Jim posted his did.  I had tasted them right after mixing the flours and water and the taste has changed from a 3 day cold ferment.  I was surprised when I mixed both final doughs.  I would have thought the KAAP with the soaker would have felt more hydrated, but it felt less hydrated then the soaker dough with GM Full Strength.

Both dough balls were mixed the same as always and both have about the same final dough temperatures.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2012, 11:00:09 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 07, 2012, 04:02:54 PM
Norma,
I am glad you found the soaker to have similar flavors as I had experienced. That is interesting that you found that the KAAP soaker felt less hydrated than the GM soaker. I too noticed that the soaker, even at 100% hydration, was stiffer than I would have expected. In fact, I was able to pick up the whole mass with a spoon without it sliding off. In any case, I look forward to seeing what you and Steve think of the soaker dough and how it compares with the prefermented dough.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2012, 05:55:34 PM
Norma,
I am glad you found the soaker to have similar flavors as I had experienced. That is interesting that you found that the KAAP soaker felt less hydrated than the GM soaker. I too noticed that the soaker, even at 100% hydration, was stiffer than I would have expected. In fact, I was able to pick up the whole mass with a spoon without it sliding off. In any case, I look forward to seeing what you and Steve think of the soaker dough and how it compares with the prefermented dough.

Jim,

I didn’t try to pick up the soakers with a spoon and just put the final dough water into the plastic containers and stirred before adding it to the mixer. 

When I took both soaker dough balls to market today, the GM Full Strength dough was starting to flatten some like a pancake and the KAAP soaker dough was still holding its shape pretty well. 

In addition to Steve and me tasting the pies, there also will be taste testers.  They know what my Sicilian pies have tasted like so far.  I will see if they can tell any difference without telling them I did anything different.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 08, 2012, 09:26:23 AM
Norma & Jimmyg

I made my soakers this morning using Jimmy's formula of 48g. @ of flour and water. I made one with KAAP flour and one with GM Better for Bread. Tomorrow, I will also make a straight mix dough using KAAP, at the same measurements and hydration. This will be cold fermented for 3 days, thus all three doughs will be ready to bake on Saturday. I will be able to compare the soakers with a long cold fermented dough, and I will also be able to compare the KAAP dough to the GM B for B dough.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 08, 2012, 08:16:33 PM
Three doughs... :o That is a lot of pizza. I sure hope your kids are home this weekend to help you eat your left overs. In any case, I look forward to what your thoughts are about the soaker.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 08, 2012, 09:43:41 PM
Norma & Jimmyg

I made my soakers this morning using Jimmy's formula of 48g. @ of flour and water. I made one with KAAP flour and one with GM Better for Bread. Tomorrow, I will also make a straight mix dough using KAAP, at the same measurements and hydration. This will be cold fermented for 3 days, thus all three doughs will be ready to bake on Saturday. I will be able to compare the soakers with a long cold fermented dough, and I will also be able to compare the KAAP dough to the GM B for B dough.

Dave,

3 doughs is a lot of doughs, but I can understand why you are doing the tests.  Best of luck!  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 09, 2012, 08:25:29 AM
 Maybe I'll set up a little stand in front of my house and sell slices!  :-D :-D :-D
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 09:09:51 AM
Maybe I'll set up a little stand in front of my house and sell slices!  :-D :-D :-D

Dave,

Lol!  :-D  Seriously, I think they would sell well!  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 09, 2012, 09:59:38 AM
Norma

I just finished making my KAAP dough which will be cold fermented for three days, for comparison to the soaker doughs. I was a little surprised to find that the dough, at 67% hydration, was not as wet as I thought it might be. The KAAP flour is a bit heavier textured then the AP flour I have been using (Adirondack). Will be interested to see what the final dough will yield. Now I'm even thinking that after we finish with this round of experimentation, I'll probably do a comparison of the KAAP flour to my Adirondack AP flour.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 11:08:26 AM
Norma

I just finished making my KAAP dough which will be cold fermented for three days, for comparison to the soaker doughs. I was a little surprised to find that the dough, at 67% hydration, was not as wet as I thought it might be. The KAAP flour is a bit heavier textured then the AP flour I have been using (Adirondack). Will be interested to see what the final dough will yield. Now I'm even thinking that after we finish with this round of experimentation, I'll probably do a comparison of the KAAP flour to my Adirondack AP flour.

Dave,

I was also surprised when using the KAAP at 67% hydration in the soaker dough that the dough didn’t feel like 67% hydration. 

If you look at the Master Gluten Mass list that Peter posted at Reply 70 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg184661.html#msg184661 you can see KAAP does have a decent amount of protein.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 11:15:14 AM
The two soaker doughs were put into the two steel pans at the same time, left to proof for the same amount of time and baked at the same time.  I could taste a small difference in the soaker dough Sicilian pies, but Steve couldn’t.  I could detect a faint nutty and sweet taste in the crust.  My other taste testers couldn’t tell any difference from my other Sicilian pies that I made before.  Steve and I did like the Sicilian soaker pie made with the GM Full Strength flour better than the one with the KAAP, but my taste testers couldn’t tell any difference.  I don’t know if the amount of soaker preferment would be upped in that would make any difference or not.  The soaker pies were very good.

The bake times for the larger Sicilian pie was different than for the smaller pies.

The four day cold fermented Sicilian dough with the GM Full Strength flour was the much better pizza, as Dave predicted it would be.  :chef: There was a much better taste in the crust that Steve and I could detect, but my other taste testers couldn’t really tell the difference.  They just said it was a really good Sicilian pizza. 

There were different people that commented on the Sicilian slices that were sitting out.  We told those people that they were just experiments, but some wanted to buy some slices.  We did sell some slices, but Steve said get those slices put away, because he wanted to take them home.

A fairly large amount of corn oil was used to grease all the pans.  I need to get better in judging how much to open the dough balls for a Sicilian pie, because I open them too far for the size of the steel pans.  I guess that is something I will learn over time.

The crumb on the large Sicilian pie was very good.  It was very light with a nice crunch on the bottom crust and really moist and in the crumb. 

Since trying to sell the clone MM pies and them being a flop in not to many people being interested in them, maybe the Sicilian pies will do better.  At least so far more people seem interested in them and they have only been sitting out for a short while.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 11:16:28 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 11:17:42 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 11:18:41 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 11:19:37 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 11:20:38 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 11:21:30 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 11:22:25 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 11:24:09 AM
The Sicilian pie from the 4 day cold fermented dough without a soaker.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 11:25:29 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 11:26:41 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 11:27:49 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 11:29:06 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 11:30:09 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 09, 2012, 11:44:14 AM
Norma,
I am glad you're getting such positives responses to your Sicilians. After trying your formula this week, I can tell its going to be a hit. While I did notice an improvement in flavor with the soaker as well, I agree, it is a minor improvement and certainly not as noticeable as a traditional preferment.  I suppose you could try upping the soaker amount to 50-100% of the total dough formula if you are inclined, but I have a feeling it will still be inferior to a preferment dough. Actually, you could even try what Peter Reinhart calls his "epoxy method", essentially maintaining a soaker and a preferment then adding both to the final dough recipe. I have never used this method so I have no idea how it will turn out.
Well, I guess the big question is: after trying out multiple formulas and flours, have you narrowed down what formula you're going to be bringing to market? I am guessing the GM full strength is going to be the flour of choice. It seems from your comments that your customers are not noticing any major differences between your overnight and preferment doughs, are you going to be sticking with a preferment dough or just an overnight dough?
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 09, 2012, 11:48:45 AM
Those are some delicious looking pies Norma. I'll be baking my pies on Saturday, by them my refridgerator should be empty of leftover slices. I'm going to fashion one of my pies after @Thezaman's MPM submission of the Youngstown Sicilian, that's a great looking pie. My other two pizzas will be some variation on standard SIcilian with cheese laid down first and then topped with sauce and toppings. I may leave a small section of each pie unadorned so I can get a good taste of just the dough without interference from any other flavors.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 12:05:50 PM
Norma,
I am glad you're getting such positives responses to your Sicilians. After trying your formula this week, I can tell its going to be a hit. While I did notice an improvement in flavor with the soaker as well, I agree, it is a minor improvement and certainly not as noticeable as a traditional preferment.  I suppose you could try upping the soaker amount to 50-100% of the total dough formula if you are inclined, but I have a feeling it will still be inferior to a preferment dough. Actually, you could even try what Peter Reinhart calls his "epoxy method", essentially maintaining a soaker and a preferment then adding both to the final dough recipe. I have never used this method so I have no idea how it will turn out.
Well, I guess the big question is: after trying out multiple formulas and flours, have you narrowed down what formula you're going to be bringing to market? I am guessing the GM full strength is going to be the flour of choice. It seems from your comments that your customers are not noticing any major differences between your overnight and preferment doughs, are you going to be sticking with a preferment dough or just an overnight dough?


Jim,

Thanks for saying your are glad that taste testers and a couple of customers liked the Sicilian pies.  Market people in our “neck of the woods” are finicky and I sure don’t know how Sicilian pies will do, but guess I will find out.  I had thought they might be interested in MM pies, but found out after many weeks that wasn’t true, even though I added what I thought were tasty toppings.

I might try a soaker dough in a higher amount for a test dough for this coming week.  Wow, Peter Reinharts “epoxy  method” sounds complicated.  Never heard of an “epoxy method”.

I will be using the GM Full Strength flour for the flour in the Sicilian pies.  I haven’t decided yet if I want to try more four day cold ferments, but that might be the way I want to go.

Thanks for your help!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 12:08:59 PM
Those are some delicious looking pies Norma. I'll be baking my pies on Saturday, by them my refridgerator should be empty of leftover slices. I'm going to fashion one of my pies after @Thezaman's MPM submission of the Youngstown Sicilian, that's a great looking pie. My other two pizzas will be some variation on standard SIcilian with cheese laid down first and then topped with sauce and toppings. I may leave a small section of each pie unadorned so I can get a good taste of just the dough without interference from any other flavors.

Dave.

Thanks!  :)

Your plan of attack on your Sicilian pies sounds good.  ;D Am anxious to see your results.

Thank you also for helping!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 09, 2012, 12:42:41 PM
Quote
Wow, Peter Reinharts “epoxy  method” sounds complicated.  Never heard of an “epoxy method”.

Yeah, it sounds different alright. If I understand the method correctly, you split your dough recipe in half. One of half will be the soaker and the other half, the preferment. The day of baking (or day before) you mix the two doughs together as one large mass, then proof, and bake. I think we could probably adapt something for your Sicilian if your interested. However, I am not entirely sure how this will turn out or if it will provide a dramatic improvement over a regular preferment dough? For simplicity, it may be easier to stick with one, less complicated formula.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Pete-zza on May 09, 2012, 01:02:54 PM
Norma and Jim,

One of our members, dcjones148, tried the "epoxy method" although he did not give a name to it. His method is described in Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7770.msg66818.html#msg66818. In that post, he does not say that the soaker (he uses the term autolyse to describe it) is refrigerated but in Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7770.msg67001.html#msg67001 he says that the autolysed dough is refrigerated, and also that the preferment (poolish) is at room temperature. Norma, I suspect the 12-hour periods he used would have to be modified for your market setting.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 01:43:16 PM
Jim and Peter,

The “epoxy method” sounds interesting and I would like to try it out whether for a Sicilian pizza or a regular Lehmann dough pizza, but think I would start another thread if I wanted to try the “epoxy method” out.  Thanks to both of you for explaining more.   :)

I think with the Sicilian pizza I am trying to make for market, I would like to keep things as simple as possible. 

Would either of you be interested in helping me if I start another thread, with coming up with a formulation to try out?  I don’t know which would be better to start with either.  Maybe a Lehmann NY style or Sicilian.   :-\

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 09, 2012, 02:49:22 PM
Quote
Would either of you be interested in helping me if I start another thread, with coming up with a formulation to try out?  I don’t know which would be better to start with either.

I certainly would. I am kind of interested in this method as well, for my durum recipes.

 I have no idea where to start either to be quite honest with you. Let me do some more research on this method and Ill get back to you. I'll start off with the link that Peter provided and migrate over to the Reinhart formulas and see what type of overlap and baker's percentages are mentioned in these recipes. In the mean time, feel free to start a new epoxy thread if you wish. It does not make much difference to me whether we work off of your Lehmann or Sicilian formula.

Also, Norma or Peter, what the most recent Lehmann preferment recipe, just to give a frame of reference for the quantities you two are working with in that formula. I am not sure if I missed it in the archives.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 03:18:47 PM
I certainly would. I am kind of interested in this method as well, for my durum recipes.

 I have no idea where to start either to be quite honest with you. Let me do some more research on this method and Ill get back to you. I'll start off with the link that Peter provided and migrate over to the Reinhart formulas and see what type of overlap and baker's percentages are mentioned in these recipes. In the mean time, feel free to start a new epoxy thread if you wish. It does not make much difference to me whether we work off of your Lehmann or Sicilian formula.

Also, Norma or Peter, what the most recent Lehmann preferment recipe, just to give a frame of reference for the quantities you two are working with in that formula. I am not sure if I missed it in the archives.

Jim,

Thanks for saying you would help and you would do some more research on this method. 

At Reply 225 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226 is where Peter posted the formulation for one dough ball for the preferment Lehmann dough.

I don’t ever recall trying Reinhart’s preferment method, but know John (fazzari) did.  If you also want that link, I think I can find it.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 09, 2012, 04:58:18 PM
You would probably do yourself a favor by reading Peter Reinhart's books. All these techniques were used specifically for breads, not pizza. Reinhart made a name for himself by winning a very prestigious competition, and in preparation he developed many of his techniques. My personal feeling is that some of this is overkill for making a market pizza which will carry toppings. Pete's goal was artisan breads baked in highly refined ovens with very small tolerances in fermentation timing, temperature and technique. Way more involved then I wish to get in making a good pizza dough. Good luck if you proceed.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: charbo on May 09, 2012, 07:33:55 PM
I mentioned the Reinhart epoxy method in several of my posts.  I'm pretty sure he developed it for whole wheat.

The soaker is overnight at room temperature.  It is salted to control protease.  The salt will not affect the desired amylase activity very much.  Supposedly the soaker will soften the bran.

The preferment is refrigerated after 6-8 hours.  Since it is virtually half the dough, it's risky to leave it overnight at room temp without salt.

The idea is to develop most of the flavor over 12-24 hours with the components, then assemble, have a fast proof, and bake.

It didn't seem like it was worth it for me, probably because my room temps were usually too low.  
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 08:41:13 PM
You would probably do yourself a favor by reading Peter Reinhart's books. All these techniques were used specifically for breads, not pizza. Reinhart made a name for himself by winning a very prestigious competition, and in preparation he developed many of his techniques. My personal feeling is that some of this is overkill for making a market pizza which will carry toppings. Pete's goal was artisan breads baked in highly refined ovens with very small tolerances in fermentation timing, temperature and technique. Way more involved then I wish to get in making a good pizza dough. Good luck if you proceed.

You are probably right that I should read be reading Peter Reinhart’s books.  I never read any of Reinhart’s books.

I didn’t want to try the “epoxy method” for a market dough.  I don’t know if Jim wants to proceed, but I will let that up to him.

Norma


I mentioned the Reinhart expoxy method in several of my posts.  I'm pretty sure he developed it for whole wheat.

The soaker is overnight at room temperature.  It is salted to control protease.  The salt will not affect the desired amylase activity very much.  Supposedly the soaker will soften the bran.

The preferment is refrigerated after 6-8 hours.  Since it is virtually half the dough, it's risky to leave it overnight at room temp without salt.

The idea is to develop most of the flavor over 12-24 hours with the components, then assemble, have a fast proof, and bake.

It didn't seem like it was worth it for me, probably because my room temps were usually too low. 


Charbo,

Thanks for your post!  :)

I found where you referenced about Reinhart’s “epoxy method” at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5631.0.html and saw you posted that the flavor of the crust really wasn’t that much improved.

Norma   
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: charbo on May 09, 2012, 09:14:30 PM
The other reason that I dropped the soaker is that I think it's redundant with a long, sourdough fermentation, which I now use. 

The epoxy technique is developed at length in Reinhart's Whole Grain Breads, which doesn't have a 100% sourdough recipe.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 09:21:19 PM
The other reason that I dropped the soaker is that I think it's redundant with a long, sourdough fermentation, which I now use. 

The epoxy technique is developed at length in Reinhart's Whole Grain Breads, which doesn't have a 100% sourdough recipe.


charbo,

I can understand why you probably dropped the soaker if you are using a long sourdough fermentation.  I also like longer sourdough fermentations, but haven’t done lots of them so far.

I might borrow and Reinhart’s Whole Grain Breads book from the library someday and try to understand what the epoxy technique is all about. 

Thanks again,

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 09, 2012, 09:23:17 PM
Norma,
I do think David and Charbo do have a point that these methods have been adapted for bread. However... there is a very fine line between bread and pizza. In fact, I would say that many of of the preferment and sourdough recipes resemble bread more than they resemble pizza. In my opinion, it is finding that balance between the bland flavors of straight white dough and the overly developed, yeasty and bready characteristics found in a full sourdough loaf. This is one of the reason why I kind of the liked the soaker method, it added a mildly mature flavor without pushing the flavor of the crust towards something that is bready, as with some preferments and sourdoughs. While we undoubtedly need to adapt this method–and it will take some trials to get there– I do not see any reason why we cannot make this method work for pizza... which I am still trying to research and figure out where to start at btw.  :-\  :) But I am sure we can figure it out.  ;)
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2012, 09:33:37 PM
Norma,
I do think David and Charbo do have a point that these methods have been adapted for bread. However... there is a very fine line between bread and pizza. In fact, I would say that many of of the preferment and sourdough recipes resemble bread more than they resemble pizza. In my opinion, it is finding that balance between the bland flavors of straight white dough and the overly developed, yeasty and bready characteristics found in a full sourdough loaf. This is one of the reason why I kind of the liked the soaker method, it added a mildly mature flavor without pushing the flavor of the crust towards something that is bready, as with some preferments and sourdoughs. While we undoubtedly need to adapt this method–and it will take some trials to get there– I do not see any reason why we cannot make this method work for pizza... which I am still trying to research and figure out where to start at btw.  :-\  :) But I am sure we can figure it out.  ;)

Jim,

I also think Dave and charbo do have a point about those methods being adapted for bread.  I know there is a fine line between bread and pizza.  I also liked the soaker method even if it didn’t give dramatic results, but 25% for the soaker wasn’t a lot.  I know some trials would be needed to get a decent formulation.  I am all in for experiments, so since you want to proceed I will follow.  I will also look on the web more about the “epoxy method”, but sure don’t know if I can figure out how to apply it to any formulations.  I will wait for anymore information you find out.

Thanks for helping and going along in the experiments.  :) 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 10, 2012, 07:52:47 AM
Norma

If you were interested in reading Reinhart, I would suggest you start with "The Bread Baker's Appretice" book, that has way more info on dealing with doughs similar to pizza dough. Not only is it informative and entertaining, but there are some outstanding recipes and a lot of insite into how and why certain steps are taken. The "Whole Grains" book is rather specific for whole grain breads, not nearly as helpful when dealing with pizza/white flour doughs. Libraries usually have these books on hand, I've found both at my local library. Reinhart's bagel recipe is my favorite.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 10, 2012, 09:50:26 AM
Norma

If you were interested in reading Reinhart, I would suggest you start with "The Bread Baker's Appretice" book, that has way more info on dealing with doughs similar to pizza dough. Not only is it informative and entertaining, but there are some outstanding recipes and a lot of insite into how and why certain steps are taken.


Dave,

Thanks you for the recommendation to read Reinhart’s “The Bread Baker’s Apprentice” book, because it has more info on dealing with doughs similar to pizza dough.   :)

Steve did bring a Reinhart dough to market to try in a pan, something like a Sicilian pie at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16380.0.html  That pie sure was tasty.

I then also tried a formulation and pie at Reply 29 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16380.msg160741.html#msg160741

I forgot I also made another attempt with durum flour and Caputo flour at Reply 44 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16380.msg161196.html#msg161196

I guess you can see I am more of an experimenter than following any rules.  :-D 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 11, 2012, 09:11:56 AM
Norma & Jimmyg

I'm still on schedule with our experiment, this morning I made the final doughs with my soakers which have been refridgerated since Tuesday. They will go back in the fridge until tomorrow, and then the two soaker doughs (one made with KAAP, the other with GM B for B) will be joined by my three days cold fermented , straight mix dough made with KAAP, and made into Sicilian style pizzas. One of the doughs will definitely be used in an attempted to copy @Thezaman's fantastic looking Youngstown Sicilian. The other two, probably the "soaker" doughs will probably just be classically topped as standard Sicilian style.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 11, 2012, 10:00:50 AM
Norma & Jimmyg

I'm still on schedule with our experiment, this morning I made the final doughs with my soakers which have been refridgerated since Tuesday. They will go back in the fridge until tomorrow, and then the two soaker doughs (one made with KAAP, the other with GM B for B) will be joined by my three days cold fermented , straight mix dough made with KAAP, and made into Sicilian style pizzas. One of the doughs will definitely be used in an attempted to copy @Thezaman's fantastic looking Youngstown Sicilian. The other two, probably the "soaker" doughs will probably just be classically topped as standard Sicilian style.

Dave,

Glad to hear you are on schedule with your 3 experiments.  I will really be interested in your results to see what you think of the textures and tastes of your crusts.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 11, 2012, 10:35:30 AM
David,
I do not blame you one bit for wanting to copy that Youngstown pie. That pie looks incredible. I look forward to hearing what you thought of the soaker doughs.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 11, 2012, 05:56:52 PM
I mixed a 3 dough ball batch of the Sicilian dough today at market.  The Hobart mixed the dough really well in a short amount of time.  I decided to try and get a lower final dough temperature because I also decided to cold ferment the 3 dough ball batch in bulk.  I will divide and ball on Monday.  The final dough temperature was 67.9 degrees F.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 11, 2012, 06:31:50 PM
Norma,
I think Tues night / Wed mornings are my new favorite hours of those days, waiting in anticipation of your results.
Good luck
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 11, 2012, 07:53:47 PM
Norma,
I think Tues night / Wed mornings are my new favorite hours of those days, waiting in anticipation of your results.
Good luck


Jim,

Lol, it is only pizza and you also make many kinds of pizzas.

Thanks for the good luck!  :) I don’t know if trying to bulk ferment the dough for 3 dough balls will work out without other changes, but will see on Monday.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 12, 2012, 07:55:27 AM
Norma

For what it's worth I always form my dough balls straight out of the mixer. I cold ferment in individual plastic containers. Once my dough begins to proof, I don't like to handle it again, thus the immediate balling of the dough. I realize there are many schools of thought on this, try it both ways and see which you find best for you.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 12, 2012, 08:30:56 AM
Norma

For what it's worth I always form my dough balls straight out of the mixer. I cold ferment in individual plastic containers. Once my dough begins to proof, I don't like to handle it again, thus the immediate balling of the dough. I realize there are many schools of thought on this, try it both ways and see which you find best for you.

Dave,

I usually divide, scale and ball right out of the mixer also, unless I am making Neapolitan doughs.  The one reason I didn’t ball right after the mix yesterday is I wanted to see what will happen if the dough is cold bulk fermented and balled on Monday.  I really don’t know what will happen or if my dough will be any good after it is balled on Monday.  The second reason is because I didn’t want to turn on my pizza prep refrigerator until Monday because of increased electric bills.  If I ever sell many Sicilian pizzas, I think I have enough room in my deli case to bulk ferment in large Cambro containers rather than individually storing the dough balls.  I also haven’t tested out how plastic bags will work with a higher hydration dough.  I don’t have enough room in either my deli case or pizza prep refrigerator to use individual plastic containers if I would make many dough balls.  My space is limited at market.

I wish I could watch how the dough is fermenting.  There is a car show and flea market thing going on at market today.  I am going to go to market today to look around at the antiques and annual flowers.  I am also going to ask one of the maintenance men there if I can go into market and check on my dough.

I don’t know if there are other pizza businesses that bulk ferment Sicilian doughs.

Norma 
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 12, 2012, 01:16:34 PM
The Old Mill Flea Market manager did say I could go into my stand today to check on the dough.  The dough in bulk looks like it is fermenting okay.

Also, a few cars from the car show at market today.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 12, 2012, 01:19:14 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 13, 2012, 08:29:00 AM
Norma & Jimmyg

I baked off my three doughs yesterday and to tell the truth, distinguishing a flavor differential between the doughs is nearly impossible, really a matter of splitting hairs. The fact that Sicilian pizzas are baked in well oiled pan and heavily topped makes the influence of the doughs flavor take a back seat to the overall flavor of these very tasty pies. Some observations I'd like to point out regarding the doughs have to do with texture and rise. I didn't get as good a pan rise as I normally do with my regular Sicilian recipe. I feel the amount of IDY that we used for these doughs was not quite as much as needed. When I make similar but slightly bigger doughs I use a scant full teaspoon of IDY. These doughs only contained a little over a half teaspoon and I think that was cause for the less then stellar pan rise. The doughs still did display good oven spring, but the texture was slightly heavier then my normal Sicilians. I also felt the AP flours make a slightly better finished dough for this style. The AP doughs were a little softer and more tender, traits I prefer in Sicilian style pizza. I have used AP flours for my Sicilian's after having observed this in previous Sicilian bakes. All the doughs had very similar rise, one thing I did notice was that the KAAP soaker dough was a lillte stickier and wetter then my other two doughs. Perhaps the hydration was just a bit too high for the KAAP flour. My conclusion is that I would use AP flour at about 65% hydration for my Sicilian doughs, and the mix method really becomes a very secondary concern to the overall success of the dough. Flavor of the topping by far trump any slight differences that might be present in the dough. I will continue to make my dough using the straight mix method with a cold ferment. I feel this is both simplier and just as effective as taking the extra steps to make a soaker. Please let me know how you feel and ask any questions you might have. BTW, my three pizzas were all differently topped. All started with a layer of deli sliced mozzarella and provolone (Black Bear brand and very tasty) placed on the doughs. The KAAP soaker dough was made into my sfincilian (sfincione/sicilian hybrid) which had a layer of a lightly cooked whole plum tomato sauce, 2 ounces of caciocavallo cheese and a light layer of Cheez-It crumbs. The GM B for B dough was sauced with the same sauce and then topped with roasted red peppers and mushrooms. My straight mix dough was made into @thezaman's Youngstown Sicilian. The sauce was according to the recipe from @thezaman which included whole plum tomatoes cooked with onions, garlic, green pepper and oregano. Three very different Sicilian styles, but all delicious.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 13, 2012, 09:25:08 AM
Dave,

Thanks so much for telling us how your Sicilian pies turned out.  Interesting that you didn’t get as good of a pan rise as you normally do with your regular Sicilian recipe and thought more IDY was needed.  Also interesting that you thought the texture was slightly heavier than your normal Sicilians.

I think Jim and I also concluded that there wasn’t enough difference in the taste of the crust when using a soaker at the amount we did. As I posted before only I could tell a little bit of a difference in the taste of the crust using the soaker and Steve and my taste testers really couldn’t tell any difference.   

All your Sicilian pies with your choices of dressing sound very good.   :)

I have two questions to ask and those are what temperature did you bake and what was your bake time?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 13, 2012, 10:03:45 AM
Norma
 
I baked at 500 for just over 20 minutes. That is probably longer then most people would prefer, I like my crust well browned and throughly cooked. I would rather my dough be a little crisper then a little gummy.  Adjust to your preferred liking.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 13, 2012, 10:25:08 AM
Norma
 
I baked at 500 for just over 20 minutes. That is probably longer then most people would prefer, I like my crust well browned and throughly cooked. I would rather my dough be a little crisper then a little gummy.  Adjust to your preferred liking.

Dave,

Thanks for posting your bake time and temperature.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 14, 2012, 10:38:57 AM
Dave,
Thanks for posting your results. They do sound delicious, especially that Youngstown Sicilian. Did you have any thoughts about the thickness of the dough?
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 14, 2012, 10:56:45 AM
Jimmyg

Thickness was about right, if had had gotten a little better pan rise the dough would have been measurably thicker and at the same time, lighter. My normal Sicilian's are probably a bit thicker, but your recipe measurements for the size pans we used was right on.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2012, 05:58:48 PM
The 3 dough ball batch that was being bulk cold fermented since Friday seemed okay today.  There were some of those tiny dark speckles on top of the dough, but when the dough was taken out and divided no speckles were inside the dough or underneath the dough.  I still wonder if it isn’t oxygen or moisture that might be in a container that might make the dark speckles appear. 

The dough balls were still sticky after forming them.  Two dough balls were placed into plastic bags after they were oiled.  The other one was placed in a bigger plastic container.  I don’t know how the two dough balls that are in plastic bags will do when I go to take them out of the plastic bags.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2012, 05:59:38 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2012, 06:00:44 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 14, 2012, 06:05:21 PM
Norma

One of my soaker doughs also had a few black specks in it. I don't know what caused that, but it was only in the soaked dough, not my straight mix, 3 day cold ferment dough. Another reason I won't be using soaker doughs for pizza.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2012, 06:17:29 PM
Dave,

I had other dough balls in other threads that also had the dark speckles on them and they never did any harm, at least for me. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Pete-zza on May 14, 2012, 07:41:16 PM
Norma,

The spotting is harmless. If you want to read more about spotting and some of its possible causes, you might take a look at the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12818.msg124032.html#msg124032.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2012, 08:07:55 PM
Norma,

The spotting is harmless. If you want to read more about spotting and some of its possible causes, you might take a look at the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12818.msg124032.html#msg124032.

Peter

Peter,

I do recall spotting is harmless.  Thanks for the link for anyone that might be interested!  Spotting or speckles never bothered me or seemed to bother any of the pizzas I made.

When the spotting does occur it always makes me wonder what I might have done differently so they don’t appear.    

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 15, 2012, 07:59:00 AM
Norma,
Was this dough your Sicilian recipe without the preferment and soakers?
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 15, 2012, 09:13:24 PM
Norma,
Was this dough your Sicilian recipe without the preferment and soakers?

Jim,

Yes, this three dough ball batch was made without the preferment or soakers.  The dough was made Friday.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2012, 07:47:13 AM
The Sicilian dough that was bulk cold fermented for 3 days, then divided and balled and fermented one more day worked out reasonably well.  I only made two pies out of the 3 dough balls and froze one to see how that works out.  One dough ball that was used was from a plastic bag and one was from the plastic container.  The taste of the crust was great since the dough had longer to ferment.  The one problem I still am having is how much to stretch out the dough before putting it into the oiled steel pan.  Either I stretch it too big or too small.  When it is in the oil and the stretch is too small, it wants to slide around and takes some effort to get it stretched the full way in the steel pan without it wanting to stretch back, even after it is left to rest for awhile. 

Steve brought some Orangecello to celebrate.  The Orangecello went well with a slice of Sicilian pizza.  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2012, 07:48:48 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2012, 07:49:56 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2012, 07:51:34 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2012, 07:53:38 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2012, 07:54:51 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2012, 07:55:29 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 16, 2012, 09:03:37 AM
Norma

Nice looking pies, glad you liked the flavor of the three day fermented doughs. From the look of your crunb I'm going to guess you used bread flour and kept your hydration at the 67% we used in our experiments. What amount of IDY did you use in these doughs? As far as spreading the doughs in the pan, I just dump the dough ball out on the pan and gently spread it to whatever degree it wants to go without over working it, then I cover the pan with plastic and give it time to rest before coming back to it later and gently reworking the dough so it easily fills the corners of the pan. I know you are limited in workspace at your stand, but the longer you can let the doughs pan rise, the higher they will go and the easier they are to spread. I have no problem sometimes letting them pan rise for up to 5 hours.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2012, 09:48:33 AM
Norma

Nice looking pies, glad you liked the flavor of the three day fermented doughs. From the look of your crunb I'm going to guess you used bread flour and kept your hydration at the 67% we used in our experiments. What amount of IDY did you use in these doughs? As far as spreading the doughs in the pan, I just dump the dough ball out on the pan and gently spread it to whatever degree it wants to go without over working it, then I cover the pan with plastic and give it time to rest before coming back to it later and gently reworking the dough so it easily fills the corners of the pan. I know you are limited in workspace at your stand, but the longer you can let the doughs pan rise, the higher they will go and the easier they are to spread. I have no problem sometimes letting them pan rise for up to 5 hours.


Dave,

Thanks for posting that they were nice looking pies.  The dough was really fermented for 4 days starting Friday.  I used that idea from you.   :)

I did use GM Full Strength flour which is bleached and bromated and kept the hydration at 67%.

I have been using the same formulation I posted at Reply 26 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg178345.html#msg178345 using 0.40% IDY.

I would like to be able to let the dough rise more slowly in the pan like you do, and do have the room either on my pizza racks, or on top of the oven to do that, but if I want to be able to make these pizzas for market, then I can’t let them rise as long as you do.  I would like to be able to let the dough rise longer, but don’t really think that is possible in a market situation.  Thanks for telling me how you place your dough in your pans.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 16, 2012, 09:56:26 AM
Norma

I understand the challenge of dealing with dough in your market setting, I'm sure the customers are more then pleased with the results of what you are doing. I may be going to U Delaware at the end of the month for my daughter's graduation, if the time table works out I would love to stop by your stand. I'll have to see how things shake out, may be paying a visit! 8)
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2012, 10:17:22 AM
Norma

I understand the challenge of dealing with dough in your market setting, I'm sure the customers are more then pleased with the results of what you are doing. I may be going to U Delaware at the end of the month for my daughter's graduation, if the time table works out I would love to stop by your stand. I'll have to see how things shake out, may be paying a visit! 8)

Dave,

Yes, dealing with dough in a market situation with different temperatures, humidity and different time restraints can be challenging at times.  Making dough at home can be easier in some ways.  I will see over time if customers want Sicilian pies. 

I would love if you can make it and stop by my pizza stand.  Hope things work out!  8) I also think you would like market and all that the standholders have to offer.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: sajata on May 16, 2012, 10:45:14 AM
Norma,

I am sure you have answered this before but where is your market located?  I live in Chester county and we do a lot of weekend adventures out in lancaster.  Would like to sample first hand!
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2012, 11:20:51 AM
Norma,

I am sure you have answered this before but where is your market located?  I live in Chester county and we do a lot of weekend adventures out in lancaster.  Would like to sample first hand!


sajata,

Root’s is the market where I operated my small pizza stand one day a week on a Tuesday.  http://www.rootsmarket.com/   It is outside of Manheim, Pa. in the country about 7 miles from Lancaster, Pa.  My small pizza stand is shown here.  http://www.rootsmarket.com/standholders-detail.asp?Image=59

If you can visit Root’s on a Tuesday it would be nice to meet you.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: sajata on May 16, 2012, 11:30:12 AM
shooting for the 29th at this point, are you there until 9?  trying to decided if hooky is the best option or be good and after work.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2012, 11:47:49 AM
shooting for the 29th at this point, are you there until 9?  trying to decided if hooky is the best option or be good and after work.

sajata,

I am not making pizzas until 9:00 pm.  Market hours are advertised to be open until 9:00 pm, but most of the standholders start cleaning up their stands at about 7:30 pm this time of the year.  That is usually when I stop making pizzas and start to clean up.  When summer is here and children are out of school, then standholders stay longer, but even then I am usually finished making pizzas about 8:00 pm, because it takes over an hour to clean everything up.  If I wait too long to start to clean up then I will be the last standholder out of market.  Some stand holders just have to cover their things they are selling and don’t have any clean-up.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: sajata on May 16, 2012, 12:01:55 PM
copy that!
will try for after lunch on the 29th
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2012, 12:13:29 PM
copy that!
will try for after lunch on the 29th


sajata,

Good to hear!  :)  You should be able to meet Steve (Ev) too.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 16, 2012, 12:34:54 PM
Norma,
Your Sicilian looks better and better every week. A dynamite Sicilian through and through.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: mykall on May 16, 2012, 01:10:02 PM
Norma,

Did I miss it somewhere in the 15 pages of this thread or did you post your sauce?  It looks perfect for a Sicilian pie.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2012, 01:24:32 PM
Norma,
Your Sicilian looks better and better every week. A dynamite Sicilian through and through.

Jim,

Thanks, I am just having trouble with getting the dough to spread in the pan okay.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2012, 01:36:56 PM
Norma,

Did I miss it somewhere in the 15 pages of this thread or did you post your sauce?  It looks perfect for a Sicilian pie.


mykall,


No, I didn’t post my pizza sauce recipe on this thread, (it is posted elsewhere on the forum) but I use Saporito Super Heavy /with basil Pizza Sauce http://www.pennmac.com/items/4020//saporito-italian-pizza-sauce and then use fresh garlic cloves crushed, Italian seasonings, oregano, a few red crushed red pepper flakes and olive oil, then microwave a few times to get the garlic cooked and also the seasonings infused into the olive oil.  Add some of the infused oil mixture to the sauce, then add few more sprinkles of Italian seasoning and oregano, a little Kosher salt, a few more crushed red pepper flakes, a tiny bit of sugar and some Red Cow Parmesan cheese to the whole mixture, let it sit for a day in the fridge, then thin it with water.

I use the same sauce on my NY style pies too, but don’t thin as much.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 16, 2012, 01:43:52 PM
Quote
I am just having trouble with getting the dough to spread in the pan okay.
Norma,
I get this same problem too regardless of the flour or formula that I use. About the only way I've found to remedy it, is to allow the dough to rest in the pan for approximately 5 mins, wait till the dough relaxes a little, and then continue to stretch and shape the dough. I know the temptation to try and get it right on the first shaping, but once the dough has been stretched to the point where it is springing back, I have learned that it does no good to potchky with it any further. You just have "flow with the dough" so to speak. 8)
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2012, 02:05:44 PM
Norma,

You just have "flow with the dough" so to speak. 8)


Jim,

Lol,  :-D

Thanks for posting how you remedy the stretch part.  I didn’t have as much of a problem until this week since I let the batch of 3 dough balls bulk ferment then divided, scaled and balled on a Monday.  I sure don’t know if that was the problem or operator error.  :-\ It all gives me something to think about until the next week.   ::)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 16, 2012, 05:25:02 PM
Norma & Jimmyg

You may say I'm crazy, but to help with the issue of spreading the dough, try proofing it in a square or rectangular plastic container rather than a round container. Call me crazy if you like, but give it a try first. The dough is already in the correct shape and will be easier to spread into that shape. :o
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2012, 08:06:10 PM
Norma & Jimmyg

You may say I'm crazy, but to help with the issue of spreading the dough, try proofing it in a square or rectangular plastic container rather than a round container. Call me crazy if you like, but give it a try first. The dough is already in the correct shape and will be easier to spread into that shape. :o

Dave,

Your idea doesn’t sound crazy to me and actually sounds quite good to try putting the dough in a square or rectangular plastic container.  ;D :chef: I did use a square plastic container for one of doughs to cold ferment before.  It can seen in the second picture down in Reply 114 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg183383.html#msg183383  Maybe that is why I didn’t have the problems like I did on Tuesday.  Might have to purchase another one or two bigger plastic containers for Tuesday.  I think I might have another bigger rectangular container. 

I think I am going to also go with Jim’s approach on this thread of trying an “Epoxy” dough and also on Jim’s Norma’s epoxy thread at  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19129.0.html of trying another soaker in one of my Sicilian doughs along the lines of what Jim has tried and Peter was wondering about at Reply 177  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg185491.html#msg185491 I will make a separate Sicilian dough on Friday with all of the formula flour and water and let that mixture cold ferment until Monday.   

With all the help I am getting on this thread of trying to make a Sicilian pizza for market, it reminds me of my friend Jiminy Cricket that says all I have to do is “give a little whistle”. 

Thanks everyone for their help on this thread!  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 17, 2012, 04:50:16 PM
Quote
Would the amylase and other enzymes produce a lot more sugar and would the proteolytic enzymes and acids destroy the gluten structure? The latter is something I once encountered with a yeasted dough with a long room temperature ferment (around 16 hours) at a high Texas summer room temperature of around 80 degrees F.

Peter,
To get back to you about the enzyme activity. From what I have read in the literature and from what Norma and I have found with the last few experiments, I would suspect that some of these enzymes, whether proteases or amylases, have specific pH activation points influencing their rates of reaction, in addition to temp, hydration, etc. Given the relative change in sweetness that both Norma and I experienced with our soakers, and the relative strength that they exhibited during storage, I would suspect that proteolytic enzymes in the flour were not yet activated and need a lower pH, from  lactic acid and other acids given off by yeast and other flora, to begin any catalytic events to break down the gluten structure. The amylases on the other hand, I would suspect are active at higher pHs given the sweet flavor and tacky feeling to the soakers that we experienced,  likely due to the hydrolysis of oligo- and disaccharides in the flour into simple sugars and water.  Regarding the specific pH ranges of the enzymes, I will have to go back through my stack of papers to double check.
Jim
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Pete-zza on May 17, 2012, 05:28:41 PM
Jim,

Thank you very much for the explanation. It isn't very often that we have to think about what goes on when you just combine flour and water to make a soaker and let it sit around for a long time.

It will be interesting to see where Norma goes with this. I know that she was trying to get away from preferments at market.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2012, 05:57:03 PM
Jim,

Thank you also for the explanations.  That stuff is way over my head in technical terms, but I can see by doing the experiments what happens.  I wonder if my pH meter would help at all to understand what might be going on in these experiments.

Peter,

I know I would like to get away from preferments in my NY style pizzas for market.  I think with enough experiments maybe I will get a better taste in the crusts of any of the pies I try.  The preferment Lehmann dough can be finicky and am not sure why.  Maybe Jim’s approach will be better.

Norma 
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 17, 2012, 06:27:21 PM
Peter,
Your more than welcome, I'm more than happy to pass on what information I find. :)
Jim


Norma,
If you would like to take a few pH reading of the soaker, preferment and the final dough, feel free to do so. With that data that you generate, I may be able to go back to the cereal literature and see which enzymes will be active at that specific pH and see if it matches the results the results in our doughs.
Also, if you need any calculations for your new formula let me know.
Jim
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2012, 08:26:52 PM

Norma,
If you would like to take a few pH reading of the soaker, preferment and the final dough, feel free to do so. With that data that you generate, I may be able to go back to the cereal literature and see which enzymes will be active at that specific pH and see if it matches the results the results in our doughs.
Also, if you need any calculations for your new formula let me know.
Jim

Jim,

I can take some readings of the pH of the soaker, preferment and final dough.  I just have to remember to get my pH meter at market tomorrow.  At least the numbers might tell something.  If not, it doesn’t really matter. 

I am not sure about how to formulate the formulation I have been using for a preferment, soaker, and final dough.  Do you want me to use a preferment and soaker with the Sicilian formulation, or just a soaker (with the flour and water), and use you other guidelines of using water that is about 127 degrees F and then letting the soaker sit out for about half an hour before cold fermenting for 3 days.  Either way doesn’t matter to me.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 17, 2012, 09:12:33 PM
Quote
I am not sure about how to formulate the formulation I have been using for a preferment, soaker, and final dough.  Do you want me to use a preferment and soaker with the Sicilian formulation, or just a soaker (with the flour and water), and use you other guidelines of using water that is about 127 degrees F and then letting the soaker sit out for about half an hour before cold fermenting for 3 days.

Norma,
Which ever method and formula you are comfortable with. If you can hit between 120-130F for your water temp for the soaker, that would be great. If not, no big deal, feel free to freestyle a little.

The formulas below I created for your 8x10 inch pan, based on your original formula. The formula with the soaker and without the preferment would be:
Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    200.89 g  |  7.09 oz | 0.44 lbs
Water (67%):    134.59 g  |  4.75 oz | 0.3 lbs
Salt (1.95%):    3.92 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
IDY (.4%):    0.8 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Total (169.35%):   340.2 g | 12 oz | 0.75 lbs | TF = 0.15

Soaker (50% total dough weight):
Flour:    85.05 g | 3 oz | 0.19 lbs
Water:    85.05 g | 3 oz | 0.19 lbs
Total:    170.1 g | 6 oz | 0.38 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    115.84 g | 4.09 oz | 0.26 lbs
Water:    49.54 g | 1.75 oz | 0.11 lbs
Salt:    3.92 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
IDY:    0.8 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Soaker:    170.1 g | 6 oz | 0.38 lbs
Total:    340.2 g | 12 oz | 0.75 lbs  | TF = 0.15

And with the preferment and the soaker it would be:
Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    200.89 g  |  7.09 oz | 0.44 lbs
Water (67%):    134.59 g  |  4.75 oz | 0.3 lbs
Salt (1.95%):    3.92 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
IDY (.4%):    0.8 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Total (169.35%):   340.2 g | 12 oz | 0.75 lbs | TF = 0.15

Soaker (50% total dough weight):
Flour:    85.05 g | 3 oz | 0.19 lbs
Water:    85.05 g | 3 oz | 0.19 lbs
Total:    170.1 g | 6 oz | 0.38 lbs

Preferment (20% of flour weight):
Flour:    20.09 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs
Water:    20.09 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs
IDY (.4%):    0.8 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Total:    40.18 g | 1.42 oz | 0.09 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    95.75 g
Water:  29.45 g | 1.75 oz | 0.11 lbs
Salt:    3.92 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
Soaker:    170.1 g | 6 oz | 0.38 lbs
Preferment: 40.18 g | 1.42 oz | 0.09 lbs
Total:    340.2 g | 12 oz | 0.75 lbs  | TF = 0.15

If you are wanting to add in 2% oil, it would be an extra 3.93 g to the either final dough formula, the same for sugar.
If you are wanting to go the preferment route, I effectively double the amount of preferment we used in last weeks soaker formula. I am hoping this will allow some more action in your preferment. Let me know if you need anything else calculated or if you are wanting to use a bigger pan. I can easily adjust the formula.
Jim
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2012, 10:03:14 PM
Norma,
Which ever method and formula you are comfortable with. If you can hit between 120-130F for your water temp for the soaker, that would be great. If not, no big deal, feel free to freestyle a little.

The formulas below I created for your 8x10 inch pan, based on your original formula. The formula with the soaker and without the preferment would be:
Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    200.89 g  |  7.09 oz | 0.44 lbs
Water (67%):    134.59 g  |  4.75 oz | 0.3 lbs
Salt (1.95%):    3.92 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
IDY (.4%):    0.8 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Total (169.35%):   340.2 g | 12 oz | 0.75 lbs | TF = 0.15

Soaker (50% total dough weight):
Flour:    85.05 g | 3 oz | 0.19 lbs
Water:    85.05 g | 3 oz | 0.19 lbs
Total:    170.1 g | 6 oz | 0.38 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    115.84 g | 4.09 oz | 0.26 lbs
Water:    49.54 g | 1.75 oz | 0.11 lbs
Salt:    3.92 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
IDY:    0.8 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Soaker:    170.1 g | 6 oz | 0.38 lbs
Total:    340.2 g | 12 oz | 0.75 lbs  | TF = 0.15

And with the preferment and the soaker it would be:
Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    200.89 g  |  7.09 oz | 0.44 lbs
Water (67%):    134.59 g  |  4.75 oz | 0.3 lbs
Salt (1.95%):    3.92 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
IDY (.4%):    0.8 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Total (169.35%):   340.2 g | 12 oz | 0.75 lbs | TF = 0.15

Soaker (50% total dough weight):
Flour:    85.05 g | 3 oz | 0.19 lbs
Water:    85.05 g | 3 oz | 0.19 lbs
Total:    170.1 g | 6 oz | 0.38 lbs

Preferment (20% of flour weight):
Flour:    20.09 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs
Water:    20.09 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs
IDY (.4%):    0.8 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Total:    40.18 g | 1.42 oz | 0.09 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    95.75 g
Water:  29.45 g | 1.75 oz | 0.11 lbs
Salt:    3.92 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
Soaker:    170.1 g | 6 oz | 0.38 lbs
Preferment: 40.18 g | 1.42 oz | 0.09 lbs
Total:    340.2 g | 12 oz | 0.75 lbs  | TF = 0.15

If you are wanting to add in 2% oil, it would be an extra 3.93 g to the either final dough formula, the same for sugar.
If you are wanting to go the preferment route, I effectively double the amount of preferment we used in last weeks soaker formula. I am hoping this will allow some more action in your preferment. Let me know if you need anything else calculated or if you are wanting to use a bigger pan. I can easily adjust the formula.
Jim

Jim,

Thanks so much for doing the calculations for the 8”x10” steel pan for both the soaker and final dough and also the preferment, soaker and final dough.  It is fun to just watch the calculations appear!  :P I soon have to learn to try to do my own calculations even if I make mistakes, if I am going to continue with these experiments, but do love anyone that can do the calculations.  >:D There is no way I could figure out what you did on the dough calculations tools. 

A little while ago I did measure my temperature in my fridge with my digital candy and fry thermometer and it is 39 degrees F.  Maybe that is why my preferment didn’t bubble more before.

I will think it over which method I want to use until tomorrow.  The 8”x10” pan is fine for the first experiment. 

Norma 
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 17, 2012, 10:09:29 PM
Quote
I soon have to learn to try to do my own calculations even if I make mistakes, if I am going to continue with these experiments, but do love anyone that can do the calculations.  Evil There is no way I could figure out what you did on the dough calculations tools.

It is a little goofy to figure out, but not too bad. I posted on the epoxy forum how to run the calculations. Let me know if it helps or if you are completely lost.
Jim
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2012, 10:23:06 PM
It is a little goofy to figure out, but not too bad. I posted on the epoxy forum how to run the calculations. Let me know if it helps or if you are completely lost.
Jim

Jim,

I think right now I am not lost on trying to do the calculations.  I saw where you posted on the epoxy thread how to run the calculations.

Thanks!

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 19, 2012, 03:04:16 PM
I am only going to try a soaker for this attempt and mixed it last evening.  This picture was taken this afternoon. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 21, 2012, 11:51:41 AM
The soaker epoxy Sicilian final dough was mixed and I sure don’t know why, but it felt too dry so I added more water.  The soaker pH was 6.20 and the final dough pH was 5.89. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 23, 2012, 01:01:24 PM
The Sicilian pie made with the soaker went okay, but the crumb was much denser.  The taste of the crumb was very good though.  I sure don’t know what a 3 day soaker does, but even with the added water, the dough felt different and much drier than the hydration.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 23, 2012, 01:02:45 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 23, 2012, 01:04:41 PM
From the one frozen dough ball left over from last week another Sicilian pizza was made yesterday.  It turned out okay.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 23, 2012, 01:10:26 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 23, 2012, 05:54:06 PM
Norma,
Your Sicilian is sure picture perfect, even if it was a little dense. I had that same problem myself with the pizzarium dough. I am beginning to wondering if the crumb density that we have been experiencing is related to our high water temp. I know over 120F, some of the starches in the dough will begin to set which may impede oven spring. I think next we should maybe think about dropping the water temp by 10-15F (so between 110F-120F) and see if we can't get a little better results.
Jim

Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 23, 2012, 06:24:23 PM
Norma,
Your Sicilian is sure picture perfect, even if it was a little dense. I had that same problem myself with the pizzarium dough. I am beginning to wondering if the crumb density that we have been experiencing is related to our high water temp. I know over 120F, some of the starches in the dough will begin to set which may impede oven spring. I think next we should maybe think about dropping the water temp by 10-15F (so between 110F-120F) and see if we can't get a little better results.
Jim



Jim,

I know you had the same problems yourself with your Pizzarium dough.  Your idea would be good to try a little lower hot water temperature when using a soaker to see if crumb density is better.  I am still curious what all a soaker does to dough in the flour and water mixture of a soaker and also the final dough. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 23, 2012, 07:06:59 PM
Norma,
I will give an you update on what I suspect is happening based on what has been published in the food chemistry literature. In essence, we using the heat of the water to speed up the enzymes that are active in the flour at a pH of 6.2. The enzymes found at this pH, only break down starches and complex sugars into simple sugars, hence the sweet taste in the dough that we are experiencing. The enzymes which break down proteins, e.g gluten, are active at lower pHs between 3.5-5.0. One of the main by products of yeast and bacteria is acid, which lowers the pH of the dough and begins to active enzymes that break down the proteins in the dough, which is why it weakens and falls apart over time. Since we are not using any yeast or other starters in this soaker, we are able to target those enzymes that only release sugars without affecting the protein composition of the dough. So in essence, we are using a little science and biochemistry to attempt to extract as much flavor out of the dough without effecting its integrity. This same method is also used in beer brewing, which is known as mashing which is probably a better description for what we are doing.
I am still a little puzzled by the quick hydration of the dough and the relative strength of the dough. But I will con't to look for an explanation.
Jim
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 23, 2012, 08:26:11 PM
Norma,
I will give an you update on what I suspect is happening based on what has been published in the food chemistry literature. In essence, we using the heat of the water to speed up the enzymes that are active in the flour at a pH of 6.2. The enzymes found at this pH, only break down starches and complex sugars into simple sugars, hence the sweet taste in the dough that we are experiencing. The enzymes which break down proteins, e.g gluten, are active at lower pHs between 3.5-5.0. One of the main by products of yeast and bacteria is acid, which lowers the pH of the dough and begins to active enzymes that break down the proteins in the dough, which is why it weakens and falls apart over time. Since we are not using any yeast or other starters in this soaker, we are able to target those enzymes that only release sugars without affecting the protein composition of the dough. So in essence, we are using a little science and biochemistry to attempt to extract as much flavor out of the dough without effecting its integrity. This same method is also used in beer brewing, which is known as mashing which is probably a better description for what we are doing.
I am still a little puzzled by the quick hydration of the dough and the relative strength of the dough. But I will con't to look for an explanation.
Jim

Jim,

Thanks for looking through what has been published in the food chemistry literature that you suspect what might be happening with the soaker.  I didn’t know that the enzymes at 6.2 pH only break down starches and complex sugars into simple sugars and that is why we are tasting the sweet tastes in the dough.  I know I was taking pH levels on some of my other threads and never really found any conclusions of what was happening with my doughs.  Peter was helping me with trying to understand what those pH numbers meant.  I can see now if the pH numbers are lower how the acid from the yeast, proteins and gluten can break down dough over time.  I saw that quickly on the one thread where I used an amount of a commercial dough enhancer that made the dough fall apart very quickly.  That dough just kept stretching and stretching and then just fell apart from the heat and how long I fermented it.  The dough fell apart in a matter of hours.   :-D

Interesting that you think we are using a little science and biochemistry to attempt to extract as much flavor out of the dough without effecting its integrity.  I sure don’t know much about science and biochemistry, but it is fascinating to watch it if that is what we are doing.  My friend Steve here on the forum does make homebrew and uses a mash to first brew his beer.  I have watched him do that.  I also will have to ask him more about his mashing process and what that does.  Maybe it will have something to do with dough and maybe not.

I am also puzzled by how strong the dough is and how quickly it hydrates.  Thanks for posting that you will continue to look why that is. 

I might try a Sicilian dough with the preferment and soaker you set-forth for this coming Tuesday.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 24, 2012, 01:09:50 PM
Norma,
If you need help with converting the formula in post #309 to your larger pan, let me know. However, appears as if you now have a solid grasp on how to calculate the formula. Given my math goofs last week with the formulas, I may need you to start double checking my math.

Also, I know mentioned a target temp of between 130-120F in the soaker formula, if you are going to add in the hot water during this round, could you drop the temp by 10-15F, so a target water temp between 120 and 115F. I am just wondering if the low temp will alleviate our issue with the density of the final crust and provide some spring to the crumb.
Jim
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 24, 2012, 01:26:19 PM
Norma,
If you need help with converting the formula in post #309 to your larger pan, let me know. However, appears as if you now have a solid grasp on how to calculate the formula. Given my math goofs last week with the formulas, I may need you to start double checking my math.

Also, I know mentioned a target temp of between 130-120F in the soaker formula, if you are going to add in the hot water during this round, could you drop the temp by 10-15F, so a target water temp between 120 and 115F. I am just wondering if the low temp will alleviate our issue with the density of the final crust and provide some spring to the crumb.
Jim

Jim,

I think your calculations for a preferment and soaker for a 8”x10” pan are right at Reply 309 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg187993.html#msg187993  I only want to try a preferment and soaker dough in a 8”x10” pan.  Your TF of 0.15 in that formulation sounds spot on to me.  :) I know I will make some goofs in math along the way, before I get everything right.  I also might try out your preferment and soaker dough for the Lehmann dough I am trying at market, if I find time to figure it out. 

I will take the temperature of the water for the soaker and keep it between 115-120 degrees F.  I am also wondering if the lower temperature will alleviate our issue with the density of the final crust and also provide some spring to the crumb.

Thanks for your help!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Pete-zza on May 25, 2012, 10:13:49 AM
Jimmy and Norma,

You both might be interested in the comments under "pizza" at http://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/23750/flour-and-water-at-which-temperature.

In my experience in working with doughs that were intended to be frozen, I found that when using cold water, or even ice, it was hard to hydrate the flour. The flour in those cases was a fairly high protein flour, and the hydration value was on the relatively low side (characteristic of what is recommended for frozen dough). In other experiments, when the hydration value was much higher, say, 65%, I had no problem hydration the flour with cold water no matter the protein content. It could be anything from all-purpose flour up to high-gluten flour. Apart from these cases, I found that, in general, warm water works best to hydrate a flour. To be honest, I never thought to try to correlate water temperature with flour type and hydration value and their effects on dough or gluten strength.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 25, 2012, 11:32:30 AM
Jimmy and Norma,

You both might be interested in the comments under "pizza" at http://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/23750/flour-and-water-at-which-temperature.

In my experience in working with doughs that were intended to be frozen, I found that when using cold water, or even ice, it was hard to hydrate the flour. The flour in those cases was a fairly high protein flour, and the hydration value was on the relatively low side (characteristic of what is recommended for frozen dough). In other experiments, when the hydration value was much higher, say, 65%, I had no problem hydration the flour with cold water no matter the protein content. It could be anything from all-purpose flour up to high-gluten flour. Apart from these cases, I found that, in general, warm water works best to hydrate a flour. To be honest, I never thought to try to correlate water temperature with flour type and hydration value and their effects on dough or gluten strength.

Peter

Peter,

The link you referenced was interesting.

Copied from your link.

pizza
Here, it is important to know what crust you are making. The two variables which will influence your choice of water temperature are how long you want to ferment the dough and how wet your dough is (with the gluten content of your flour modifying the results of wetness, so probably should count as a third variable).
Wetness is important because you want to be able to knead your dough. If you are working at normal hydrations (60 to 75%), any water temperature will produce a kneadable dough. If you are using very high or very low hydrations, you are concerned about your proteins not being able to form a good matrix, due to either not having enough water to absorb (low hydrations) or being mixed in a batter so wet that they can't hook into each other properly. Here, you can use the fact that gluten absorbs cold water much better than warm water. If you are working a hard dough, use warmer water, so the dough stays soft enough during the kneading. If you are working a very wet dough, use cold water. Shirley Corriher recommends throwing crushed ice into the food processor. This will give you stronger, better gluten.
Of course, it is not only the water temperature which determines whether a challenging dough will work well, it is also the protein content of the flour. The higher the protein content of your flour, the more water absorption you can expect. So, if you combine high-protein flour with cold water, you are likely to end up with a dough on the firmer side. If you are already making a low-hydration bread, it could be too firm for good gluten development. So, you may consider warmer water in this case. On the other hand, when you have a high-hydration bread, you are worried about the dough being too wet. You should use cold water then.

Do you think we should be using a colder water for the soaker for added gluten development?  Does the above paragraphs mean that cold water will make gluten better? 

That would be an interesting experiment to do try to correlate water temperature with flour type and hydration values and their effects on dough or gluten strength.

The other link was also interesting contained in the article at http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking/bread/yeast_temp.html I wonder how valid all those ranges of temperatures are when they are applied to pizza dough.  The one at 100 degrees F or lower, says when yeast is mixed with water at too low of a temperature, an amino acid called glutathione leaks into the cell walls, making doughs sticky and hard to handle.  ‘

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Pete-zza on May 25, 2012, 12:43:44 PM
Norma,

I have no idea as to whether a soaker with increased gluten strength is desirable or not, but maybe Jimmy has an opinion on that. But I interpret the quoted material as saying that gluten benefits from cold water in certain circumstances. Normally, I shoot for a particular finished dough temperature but that is because I want to control the fermentation process. That would not apply to a soaker because it does not contain yeast.

I would say that the temperature ranges in the article you referenced are correct. That also applies to the glutathione (dead yeast). It is also the reason why I never hydrate yeast in cold water. That will only shock the yeast and possibly release the glutathione. I either add the yeast to the flour before adding cold water or I rehydrate the yeast in a small amount of warm water, and use the rest of the water cold. If you do a search at the PMQ Think Tank using the search term "glutathione", you will get several hits, including posts by Tom Lehmann.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 25, 2012, 07:45:06 PM
Peter,

I did look at PMQTT for "glutathione", but didn’t find many posts.  I saw Tom Lehmann posted that the yeast cells will actually begin feeding upon themselves, in the process releasing glutathione, which can result in unwanted dough softening, or less than optimum yeast/dough performance.  I also forgot that glutathione is also like a reducing agent such as L-cysteine/PZ-44.

I will mix the Sicilian “epoxy” dough this evening.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Pete-zza on May 25, 2012, 08:23:45 PM
Norma,

When I did a PMQTT search, I got 14 hits. If you do a search on this forum on glutathione, using my forum name, you will get two pages of hits. There is also a pretty good article on the leaching of glutathione from yeast cells (including dry yeast) at http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_6DRYYE.PDF.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 25, 2012, 10:42:13 PM
Peter,

That was a good article from your link. I didn’t know when yeast is dried the cell membrane becomes more porous than usual and during the rehydration the cell membrane recovers, but while this is occurring cell constituents can dissolve in the dough water.  It even says that the optimum temperature for membrane recovery is about 104 degrees F.  I also didn’t know that warm rehydration maximizes dry yeast performance by quickly reforming the cell membrane.  Also didn’t know at lower temperature than 70 degrees F half of the yeast cells’ soluble components can be lost. 

Quoted:

“Leaching affects yeast activity because although most of the enzymes remain, the solubles which promoted the activity of the enzymes are depleted. Leaching also affects which can be desirable at low levels in some applications but undesirable in others.”

In the search about glutathione, using your screen name, I guess I can upon one of your first posts at Reply 8 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,484.msg4159.html#msg4159  There your screen name wasn’t even Pete-zza and you were a guest.  You sure knew all about dough even back then.  ;D Then the next post at Reply 11 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,484.msg4423.html#msg4423 you were then Pete-zza.  I understand a little bit more how glutathione can be released by the damaged yeast.

Did you ever do an experiment where you use hotter water like we are using for the soaker in any dough formulation to see what would happen?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2012, 08:36:34 AM
The soaker and preferment were mixed for the Sicilian attempt last evening.  The pH of the soaker right after it was mixed was 5.93.  I will try to remember to take the pH of the soaker later on this evening if case anyone is interested.  The other soaker that was mixed yesterday with the same flour had a different pH reading this morning.  I don’t know why that is, when almost the same water temperature and the same water were used, but would guess that the pH changes some in almost a days time.  The water temperature used for this soaker was 117.4 degrees F.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Pete-zza on May 26, 2012, 10:46:47 AM
In the search about glutathione, using your screen name, I guess I can upon one of your first posts at Reply 8 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,484.msg4159.html#msg4159  There your screen name wasn’t even Pete-zza and you were a guest.  You sure knew all about dough even back then.  ;D Then the next post at Reply 11 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,484.msg4423.html#msg4423 you were then Pete-zza.  I understand a little bit more how glutathione can be released by the damaged yeast.

Did you ever do an experiment where you use hotter water like we are using for the soaker in any dough formulation to see what would happen?

Norma,

Reply 8 that you mentioned was my very first post on the forum. At that time, guests could post without registering. Not being a natural joiner, I was not planning to join the forum but Steve convinced me to do so. Reply 11 that you mentioned was after I officially joined.

As for your question about using hotter water to make a dough, the answer is yes. I have experimented with using water temperatures of around 120-130 degrees F, and on occasion even a few degrees higher, just to the point where I wouldn't start to kill the yeast. To get an even hotter dough I have also used a food processor to prepare the dough, along with using a proofing box set to its highest temperature. You can see an example of where I used this general combination at Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2250.msg19793.html#msg19793.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2012, 12:15:24 PM
Norma,

Reply 8 that you mentioned was my very first post on the forum. At that time, guests could post without registering. Not being a natural joiner, I was not planning to join the forum but Steve convinced me to do so. Reply 11 that you mentioned was after I officially joined.

As for your question about using hotter water to make a dough, the answer is yes. I have experimented with using water temperatures of around 120-130 degrees F, and on occasion even a few degrees higher, just to the point where I wouldn't start to kill the yeast. To get an even hotter dough I have also used a food processor to prepare the dough, along with using a proofing box set to its highest temperature. You can see an example of where I used this general combination at Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2250.msg19793.html#msg19793.

Peter


Peter,

It is good that you decided to join the forum, because you sure have helped a lot of members, or guests, understand all what can go into making pizza doughs, including me so many times.  With all your experiments alone, without all the other times you have helped members understand what their problems are with mostly any pizza doughs, you are a very valuable member of this forum. I should have know you tried hotter water and also a food processor to get the temperature up (for a short time dough), because you have tried about everything.  :-D Thanks for the link!

I wonder if Jim will have any explanations of why a lower water temperature might be needed for a soaker.  I don’t understand why a lower water temperature would have anything to do with how a soaker hydrates, forms gluten and matures over a few days period, as long as the water temperature isn’t too high.  So far the soakers haven’t broken down and still feel strong when they are ready to be mixed into the final dough.  Maybe Jim is concerned of higher water temperatures because of how much they do seem to suck up the water and quickly develop gluten.  I still don’t understand what a soaker does (as far as what it does to the grains in the flour), except it seems like it gives a better taste in the crust. 

Norma 
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2012, 10:11:04 PM
The pH of the soaker taken a few minutes ago and almost 24 hrs. after it was mixed was 6.23.  I sure don’t know what that means, but it also has the sweet taste now.  I don’t know what gives the soaker the sweet taste, instead of a flour and water taste, since no yeast is in the soaker.  If anyone also wants me to take the pH of the preferment for this dough or other ones I am working on let me know. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 27, 2012, 03:52:24 PM
I  took the pH numbers of the Sicilian preferment and soaker today over 24 hrs since yesterday, because I was curious to see if the pH numbers of the three preferments would be a lot different.  What I find interesting is that the preferment numbers on the Sicilian “epoxy preferment“, Lehmann “epoxy preferment, and Pizzarium “epoxy preferment” had very similar numbers, but the soakers for all three dough were much different than the preferment numbers, even though all three preferments and soakers used the same flours for both the preferment and the soakers.  I don’t know what that means, unless maybe if yeast is added the numbers stay somewhat similar when cold fermenting.

Just to compare on this thread the pH numbers are.

Sicilian “epoxy dough” pH numbers
Soaker 6.19
Preferment 5.16

Lehmann “epoxy dough” pH numbers.
Soaker 6.06
Preferment 5.13

Pizzarium “epoxy” dough pH numbers
Soaker 6.12
Preferment 5.16

The other difference is the Sicilian preferment and soaker were made after the other two “epoxy doughs”  I also wanted to note that the all three soakers seem to be losing some strength in the gluten.  I also don’t know if the losing strength means anything or not.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 27, 2012, 06:34:17 PM
 Norma

When you started doing the "soakers", I had mentioned that this technique was more for whole grain rather then regular wheat flour. The purpose of the soaker was to soften the grains of the whole grain flour so they would be more user friendly in whole grain finished products. What you are noticing is exactly the same thing, the flour is softening too much and the gluten structure is breaking down. Again I suggest you look up Reinhart's "Whole Grains" book and you will get a better appreciation of the method and madness of using a "soaker". I really don't think it is of any benefit with standard white flour, and I think you can now see why. ::)
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 27, 2012, 08:48:01 PM
Norma

When you started doing the "soakers", I had mentioned that this technique was more for whole grain rather then regular wheat flour. The purpose of the soaker was to soften the grains of the whole grain flour so they would be more user friendly in whole grain finished products. What you are noticing is exactly the same thing, the flour is softening too much and the gluten structure is breaking down. Again I suggest you look up Reinhart's "Whole Grains" book and you will get a better appreciation of the method and madness of using a "soaker". I really don't think it is of any benefit with standard white flour, and I think you can now see why. ::)

Dave,

I know when Jim and I started using soakers and a preferment you mentioned that this technique was more of a Reinhart technique and the soakers were to soften the grains.   I did read about soakers on The Fresh Loaf website and other places on the web, but didn’t read Reinhart’s Whole Grains book. 

I don’t know if the soakers are really breaking down that much that they won’t be able to be used.  I had much lower pH numbers in pizza doughs before and the pizzas still turned out okay.  I am always looking for maybe new ways to try something and until I go though the experiments won’t really know what will happen.  I am more of a experimental person that wants to see the results, before I try to make any conclusions.  I have tried crazier things in the past.  :-D I really don’t think the “epoxy method” has been explored that much with regular flour before, but I could be wrong.

Thanks for your help.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 27, 2012, 09:08:58 PM
Norma

I dabble in sourdough, and although I haven't been doing too much with it lately, I'll tell you what I have a feeling you're dealing with when using soaker doughs. I keep a container of sourdough culture in my fridge at all times, and when I want to do a sourdough bread or pizza I will scoop out a little and then start feeding it to develop my sourdough culture to eventually make my dough. Occasionally, I will use some of that refridgerated culture just as is, not fed, in an attempt to use some of it up without wasting it. Mind you I am also still using a fed and active culture, but just adding the unfed culture as another part of the dough ingredients. I have found over many experiences, that those doughs, even though they may only contain a small amount of that inactive culture, will be very soupy, sticky and a chore to develop into a dough. You may find you will encounter similar experiences when working with your "soaker" doughs, because they are really both very similar. Be on the watch, and let me know if you run into this experience. Thanks, Dave
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 27, 2012, 10:07:39 PM
Norma

I dabble in sourdough, and although I haven't been doing too much with it lately, I'll tell you what I have a feeling you're dealing with when using soaker doughs. I keep a container of sourdough culture in my fridge at all times, and when I want to do a sourdough bread or pizza I will scoop out a little and then start feeding it to develop my sourdough culture to eventually make my dough. Occasionally, I will use some of that refridgerated culture just as is, not fed, in an attempt to use some of it up without wasting it. Mind you I am also still using a fed and active culture, but just adding the unfed culture as another part of the dough ingredients. I have found over many experiences, that those doughs, even though they may only contain a small amount of that inactive culture, will be very soupy, sticky and a chore to develop into a dough. You may find you will encounter similar experiences when working with your "soaker" doughs, because they are really both very similar. Be on the watch, and let me know if you run into this experience. Thanks, Dave


Dave,

I also fooled around with sourdoughs to bake at my friend Steve home, different “wild yeast” Sicilian doughs, and have even tried experiments to try to have a sourdough pizza at market.  I never tried what you did in in just using some of the refrigerated culture without feeding it first.  I can understand what you are trying to say, but at Jim’s epoxy thread at Reply 16 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19129.msg187390.html#msg187390 I did have to add more flour because the dough was sticky, but the formulation also had 2% oil which could or could not have made the dough sticky, because the dough was already at 63% hydration.  The final pizza with the “epoxy method” turned out good at Reply 20 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19129.msg187619.html#msg187619 and that attempt was also using the same flour as I am using for this attempt for an “epoxy” Sicilian pizza.  I sure don’t know how this Sicilian “epoxy” dough will turn out though. 

I appreciate you telling me of your experiences with adding a little unfed culture to some of your sour dough and finding they are very soupy, sticky and a chore to develop the dough. 

Do you have any idea of why the soakers get sweet and have a little nutty taste after about a day, even if a regular flour is used?  I guess what I am trying to say is maybe, just maybe, a sourdough culture taken out of the fridge and added to a dough isn’t like a soaker.  I have tasted many of my sourdough cultures right out of the fridge and none of them had a really sweet taste.

It is always fun for me to experiment, even if I don’t get the desired results I want.  It is all a learning process in my trying to understand how different pizza doughs turn out. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 27, 2012, 11:08:04 PM
Norma

I wasn't referring to taste, I simply meant that the consistency of the doughs would be very similar. Naturally, the sourdough culture is already full of the sourdough taste while that would not be the case for the soaker dough. I'm just trying to talk you down off the ledge, but I guess you've made your mind up to jump!  :-D
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 27, 2012, 11:30:36 PM
Norma

I wasn't referring to taste, I simply meant that the consistency of the doughs would be very similar. Naturally, the sourdough culture is already full of the sourdough taste while that would not be the case for the soaker dough. I'm just trying to talk you down off the ledge, but I guess you've made your mind up to jump!  :-D

Dave,

I understand now what you are trying to get though my thick head.  I know the taste won’t be like a sourdough crust, but Jim posted about his attempt at Reply 71 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19129.msg188690.html#msg188690  that he would go as far to say that it was one of the best tasting crusts he ever had.  I don’t know if that was from using different flours or the higher hydration Pizzarium dough, but guess I will find out.  I like sticky doughs to fool around with.   >:D

I appreciate you are trying to talk me off the ledge (and that is what Peter usually does, if I try something that might not work out)  but guess I am ready to jump off that ledge.  :-D You can now be called the second Peter if you want to be called that, if it is okay with Peter.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 28, 2012, 09:11:52 AM
 Let's just say Pete and I will hold the net and try to catch you when you fall!  ;)
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Pete-zza on May 28, 2012, 09:38:50 AM
The pH of the soaker taken a few minutes ago and almost 24 hrs. after it was mixed was 6.23.  I sure don’t know what that means, but it also has the sweet taste now.  I don’t know what gives the soaker the sweet taste, instead of a flour and water taste, since no yeast is in the soaker.

Norma,

Jimmy explained the phenomena that he believes are in play to create the sweetness that you detected in the soaker, at Reply 321 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg188776.html#msg188776. To what he said in that post, I would add that before fermentation can take place, you need the enzyme zymase that is present in the cells of yeast. Without that enzyme, and at the proper value of pH, the amylase enzymes can still perform and convert damaged starch to sugars, and especially glucose that the yeast uses along with the zymase enzyme to initiate fermentation. In the absence of yeast and the zymase, all the dough can do is store the sugars that are produced through the action of the amylase enzyme on damaged starch. I believe that you were tasting those sugars. If you are interested, you can read more about these processes at theartisan.net website, under Sugar Transformations (Rosada), at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_One.htm#Sugar Transformations.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Pete-zza on May 28, 2012, 09:39:49 AM
Let's just say Pete and I will hold the net and try to catch you when you fall!  ;)

Dave,

You mean the net with the big holes in it from Norma's past falls :-D?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 28, 2012, 10:00:37 AM
When Norma starts an experiment, there's NO WAY anyone is gonna stop her!  ;D
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2012, 10:10:31 AM
Let's just say Pete and I will hold the net and try to catch you when you fall!  ;)

Dave,

You mean the net with the big holes in it from Norma's past falls :-D?

Peter

When Norma starts an experiment, there's NO WAY anyone is gonna stop her!  ;D

Dave and Peter,

I will have you both know I did already mixed the final dough and it seems almost exactly like my regular Sicilian dough I have been playing around with.  I will post about it later, but so far it looks and feels good.  :)

Why waste a started experiment, because I am not following what most members do.  ::)

Thanks Dave that you would catch me if my experiment doesn’t work out!  ;D Peter you sure are no help with the big holes in the net.  >:(

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2012, 10:14:16 AM
Norma,

Jimmy explained the phenomena that he believes are in play to create the sweetness that you detected in the soaker, at Reply 321 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg188776.html#msg188776. To what he said in that post, I would add that before fermentation can take place, you need the enzyme zymase that is present in the cells of yeast. Without that enzyme, and at the proper value of pH, the amylase enzymes can still perform and convert damaged starch to sugars, and especially glucose that the yeast uses along with the zymase enzyme to initiate fermentation. In the absence of yeast and the zymase, all the dough can do is store the sugars that are produced through the action of the amylase enzyme on damaged starch. I believe that you were tasting those sugars. If you are interested, you can read more about these processes at theartisan.net website, under Sugar Transformations (Rosada), at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_One.htm#Sugar Transformations.

Peter

Peter,

I did recall Jim explaining the phenomena that he believes are in play to create the sweetness that are detected in the soakers. 

I didn’t know that before fermentation can take place, the enzyme zymase that is present in yeast cells is needed.  I guess what is happening that the dough is storing sugars that are produced though the action of the amylase enzyme on damaged starch.  Thanks for the additional explanation. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 28, 2012, 10:39:26 AM
Norma,
That is kind of odd that the soakers are loosing strength. I don't think we have experienced this yet. Are they breaking down do you think? Are you sure this is not due to the dough being cold rather than at room temp? Biologically there is should not be anything in the mixture to break it down. The enzymes (protease) that break down proteins and gluten are pretty much inactive at the pHs you are reporting and do not begin to show significant activity until they reach a pH around 5.25, and the activity of these protease will increases as the pH drops.

I myself did mix up a batch on friday with a target temp of 115.4F. I, however, did notice that the soakers at this temp did not have as much strength as the soakers that were in the 120s. I am still investigating to try to figure out why we had such strength at the higher temp and not at the lower water temp. I am suspecting that the higher temp was cooking some of the starches, adding to the strength of the dough. But I will have to follow up on this.

Quote
Sicilian “epoxy dough” pH numbers
Soaker 6.19
Preferment 5.16

Lehmann “epoxy dough” pH numbers.
Soaker 6.06
Preferment 5.13

Pizzarium “epoxy” dough pH numbers
Soaker 6.12
Preferment 5.16

Thanks for posting your pHs, they are right where they should be. A preferment should be in the low 5s and the soaker in the low 6s, a difference of 1 pH. In a nutshell, what the numbers are telling me is that the preferment, due to the yeast, is able to target certain enzymes in the flour that a soaker is not able to, and vise versa. At the lower pHs, the preferment is able to activate certain enzymes that will break down proteins into amino acids and starch into sugars. Undoubtedly, the yeast is able to contribute its own flavors to the starter and final dough, independent of what is in the flour as well. The soaker is only able to target the enzymes that breakdown starches into sugars, proteins are not able to be denatured (torn apart at these pHs, or at least not to any significant degree). So from what I am reading, the majority of our flavor is from targeting enzymes which are active in the low 6pHs, in addition to the ones that are active in the low 5 pHs. I do think that it is probably the combination of two that is providing that rich flavor that we are tasting in our final crusts.  

Jim
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 28, 2012, 10:43:51 AM
Wow, I have never heard of zymase. Going to have to look this one up.

Jim
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Pete-zza on May 28, 2012, 10:57:21 AM
Wow, I have never heard of zymase. Going to have to look this one up.

Jimmy,

If you look at Figure 3 at the bottom of the page at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_One.htm#Sugar Transformations, you will see that all roads lead to Rome. You need zymase and glucose for fermentation.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 28, 2012, 11:09:06 AM
Man it would be nice if that was true. I could use a Roman vacation. My the only road I have been have been on is home to the lab.  :-D
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2012, 11:09:47 AM
Jim,

The Pizzarium soaker was much stronger with the different blended flours, than the soakers I am now using with the GM Full Strength flour for this thread and our “epoxy“ thread.  I sure don’t know if the soakers are breaking down and if it is from the soakers being cold rather than at room temperature.  

I wonder since you also mixed up a soaker and used a lower water temperature if that has something to do with the soakers not being as strong.  It seems like I also had almost the same results.  

It is good that the pH numbers are right where they should be.  :) Thanks for explaining what is happening with the preferments and soakers.  

Glad to hear you think the combination of the two is what is providing the rich flavor that we are both tasting in the final crust.  

I am now almost finished mixing the “epoxy” NY style dough and then will post the final pH numbers of all the final doughs and also the pictures of the processes, after I resize all the pictures.

Thanks for your help!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2012, 11:11:41 AM
Man it would be nice if that was true. I could use a Roman vacation. My the only road I have been have been on is home to the lab.  :-D

Jim,

Me 2!  About the only places I go to is home to market.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on May 28, 2012, 11:19:40 AM
Peter,
Do you know if zymase goes by a different name b/c it is not in the enzyme database, http://www.brenda-enzymes.info/index.php4 and the only thing I am getting when I do a Google scholar search is either literature from the early 1900s or a review of the history of enzymes  and how the word enzyme got its name (zymase = enzyme) http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=zymase+&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C43?

Jim
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Pete-zza on May 28, 2012, 11:29:40 AM
Peter,
Do you know if zymase goes by a different name b/c it is not in the enzyme database, http://www.brenda-enzymes.info/index.php4 and the only thing I am getting when I do a Google scholar search is either literature from the early 1900s or a review of the history of enzymes  and how the word enzyme got its name (zymase = enzyme) http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=zymase+&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C43?

Jim

Jim,

I only became aware of zymase from the theartisan.net website, and it stuck with me. Maybe the material at wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zymase can give you some insights on zymase.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2012, 11:53:46 AM
I am posting all the final dough pH numbers on this thread to keep them all in one place.

The final dough pH numbers were:

Pizzarium 5.69
Sicilian 5.65
NY style 5.57

All the above doughs were mixed with the flat beater on the Kitchen Aid mixer first, then the dough hook was used.  For each final dough I did add a little sprinkling of IDY for insurance that the dough will ferment okay until tomorrow. 

The Pizzarium “epoxy” dough was sticky as I thought it would be.  I gave it different stretches and folds and would have like to given it some more, but my time is running short in that I soon have to go to market. 

The Sicilian “epoxy” dough was basically the same as my regular Sicilian dough in how it normally feels.

The NY style “epoxy” dough felt a little bit stickier, but wasn’t bad.

None of the final doughs had any extra flour added.  They all seemed okay and felt about the same as the hydration they should have been.

On another note, my dishwasher is broken now, so there are sure a lot of dishes to do by hand.  :-D 

These are the pictures of the Sicilian.  I will post the other pictures of the Pizzarium and NY style on the other threads.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: cornicione54 on May 28, 2012, 05:54:35 PM
I guess I'm joining this thread pretty late but can someone please summarise for me what has been found in regards to the benefits of using a "soaker", so far? I played around with some soakers (various hydrations) a few years ago when trying to make bread and decided that aside from a slightly sweeter dough I was not getting enough benefit to justify the procedure but I'm sure I wasn't being nearly as thorough as the folks here on this thread.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 28, 2012, 06:14:34 PM
cornicione54

I just happened to see your comment so I'll say that I feel the same as you, too much hassle for what you get out of white flour, more useful as a technique for whole grains. Norma and Jimmyg will certainly get you up to speed as soon as they see this. Or, you could do a LOT of reading!
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2012, 06:42:02 PM
I guess I'm joining this thread pretty late but can someone please summarise for me what has been found in regards to the benefits of using a "soaker", so far? I played around with some soakers (various hydrations) a few years ago when trying to make bread and decided that aside from a slightly sweeter dough I was not getting enough benefit to justify the procedure but I'm sure I wasn't being nearly as thorough as the folks here on this thread.

cornicione54,

 JimmyG, Dave, and I first tried a lower amount of soaker and really that didn’t do much.  We are now working on different pizzas on Jim’s thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19129.0.html and now both of us are working on Pizzarium style doughs with 10% preferment and with a 50% soaker.  We both think the pies made with the preferment and soaker do give a better taste to the crust.  Why that might be we really don’t know at this point.  I am also working on another “epoxy” dough starting at Reply 312 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18407.msg188919.html#msg188919  We really don’t know where these experiments will take us.  So far we have changed the soaker water temperature and lowered it and upped the soaker amount.  The soaker is left to sit out for ˝ hr before cold fermenting.  I have left my soakers cold ferment for 3 days, before incorporating them into the final dough along with the preferment. 

As Dave has posted it is extra work and we really don’t know if using a regular flour will make a lot better pizzas until we try some more experiments.  I think we still are in the tweaking stage and learning stage.  If you need any more links let me know.

Jim might also have more to add.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 28, 2012, 07:20:37 PM
@cornicione54

When they figure it all out, they won't be able to wait to tell us all about it. Sit back, relax and let Norma and Jimmy do their thing! >:D
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: cornicione54 on May 28, 2012, 07:22:38 PM
:) Thanks Norma and David. I look forward to reading more about the results in this continuing line of experimentation.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2012, 07:54:33 PM
@cornicione54

When they figure it all out, they won't be able to wait to tell us all about it. Sit back, relax and let Norma and Jimmy do their thing! >:D

Dave,

Lol, you crack me up!   :-D   Thanks for the laugh.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 28, 2012, 08:48:16 PM
Norma

I was just playing around on a bread baking site, and found this http://www.sourdoughhome.com/pizzacrusts.html, it's kinda what I was explaining what I do when I want to use up some of my extra sourdough culture.! Just never know what you'll find on the WWW. Maybe this will be the seed for yet another experiment!  :angel:
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2012, 09:12:22 PM
Norma

I was just playing around on a bread baking site, and found this http://www.sourdoughhome.com/pizzacrusts.html, it's kinda what I was explaining what I do when I want to use up some of my extra sourdough culture.! Just never know what you'll find on the WWW. Maybe this will be the seed for yet another experiment!  :angel:

Dave,

You could be so right that what you found might be something to try with leftover sourdough starters.  ;D  I never thought to use up some of the starters that way.

I wonder if the skin wouldn’t need to be docked though.  I did bake just plain skins in my oven and they ballooned up, but then went down after they were taken out of the oven.  I did use them to make Panini sandwiches and thought they were great.  The taste of sourdough would make them a lot better. 

Are you going to try what you found?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on May 28, 2012, 09:27:09 PM
 Norma

I think I will give that a try. I have about 3 qt. containers full of sourdough culture and I really could use that space for better things (beer and cheese) so I may play around with this idea and see how things turn out. And now that I'm thinking sourdough, I think breakfast might be sourdough, buttermilk pancakes.  ;)
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2012, 10:21:09 PM
Norma

I think I will give that a try. I have about 3 qt. containers full of sourdough culture and I really could use that space for better things (beer and cheese) so I may play around with this idea and see how things turn out. And now that I'm thinking sourdough, I think breakfast might be sourdough, buttermilk pancakes.  ;)

Dave,

Good to hear you think you will give that a try.  If you give your idea a try and it works out, I also might try it.  I like the idea for more room for beer and cheese too.  Sourdough buttermilk pancakes also sounds great!  ;)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: sajata on May 29, 2012, 12:03:26 PM
Well Norma, as they say "Life Happens" i will no tbe able to make it out to try you handy work.  It is still on my agenda but not today....

sorry. I was looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 29, 2012, 09:13:58 PM
Well Norma, as they say "Life Happens" i will no tbe able to make it out to try you handy work.  It is still on my agenda but not today....

sorry. I was looking forward to it.


sajata,

I know “life happens” and understand.  I was looking forward to meeting you to, but anytime is fine.  It was really hot at market today anyway and then we had some bad storms later today.   

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 30, 2012, 09:49:31 AM
The “epoxy” Sicilian attempt went okay.  Being it was so hot at market, the dough proofed more in the steel pan than I thought it would.  I don’t know if it was the “epoxy” method, the added IDY, or the heat proofing the dough in the pan, but the crumb was really soft.  I think it was softer than any crumb I made before.  I don’t know why the crumb was so soft.  I wanted to also note that there was a really soft crumb when trying the Pizzarium “epoxy” dough.  Both pizzas when getting them out of the steel pan were almost floppy, even though they were brown on the bottom crusts.  The crumb did have a good taste. 

This dough ball was also very easy to open, as were the Pizzarium and NY style Lehmann "epoxy" doughs.

Some of my pictures turned out blurry, but these are the ones that weren’t blurry.

Norma 
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 30, 2012, 09:51:38 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on May 30, 2012, 09:55:17 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on June 13, 2012, 08:52:03 AM
I found that using the top deck on my oven does help to make the bottom browner, with a crispier bottom, without making the cheeses on the top brown too much.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on June 13, 2012, 08:53:00 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on June 13, 2012, 08:53:47 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on June 13, 2012, 08:54:33 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on June 13, 2012, 08:55:29 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: parallei on June 13, 2012, 10:53:29 AM
 :chef:.   If I ever make it out to your part of the world, can I pre-order one of those pies?
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on June 13, 2012, 02:04:38 PM
:chef:.   If I ever make it out to your part of the world, can I pre-order one of those pies?

Paul,

If you ever make it out to my area, I would gladly make you one of the Sicilian pies, or whatever kind you want to try.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on June 21, 2012, 07:19:41 PM
These are a few pictures from a Sicilian pie that was made Tuesday.  This pie was also baked in the top deck and the one side was browner than the other.  I rotate the pie different times, but it is still hard sometimes to get consistent bottom crust browning.  The one picture is of the lighter end of the bottom crust.  The other end was a little browner.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on June 21, 2012, 07:20:24 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Jimbo53 on June 21, 2012, 10:41:17 PM
Norma,

That square pie looks like the picture in my head of what a Sicilian pie should look like.  That bottom crust looks like it had the perfect amount of crisp to it.

Could you please link me to the recipe or worksheet to that perfect pie pictured above.

Thanks,
Jimmy
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on June 21, 2012, 11:06:37 PM
Norma,

That square pie looks like the picture in my head of what a Sicilian pie should look like.  That bottom crust looks like it had the perfect amount of crisp to it.

Could you please link me to the recipe or worksheet to that perfect pie pictured above.

Thanks,
Jimmy

Jimmy,

Thanks for your nice comment!  :)

The formulation I have been using is at Reply 26 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg178345.html#msg178345  Right now I am using GM Full Strength flour, but I did try other flours like Better for Bread and it seemed to work well.  I think the hydration could drop a percentage point or two if you decide to use some other flours.  If you need help in how I mix, let me know.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: JimmyG on June 22, 2012, 09:24:22 AM
Jimmy,
I've tried Norma's Sicilian recipe several times and believe me, it is one of the tastiest Sicilian I have ever tried. I think you will be very happy with her recipe.
Jim
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on June 27, 2012, 11:17:45 AM
This was just another Sicilian pie made yesterday.  I like the bottom crust browning better.  It is hard to know exactly when to pull these pies out of the oven, and can’t really time the bakes in accuracy because my deck oven temperatures fluctuate because the doors are opened and closed many times.  I don’t know how I did it on this pie, but the bottom crust was evenly browned.  I also added the blend of grated Parmigiano Reggiano and Romano that I had purchase at Bova under the sauce.  I liked the addition of the grated Parmigiano Reggiano and Romano cheese.

I think I have found the best methods for me to get a nice moist crumb and a decent crunch to the bottom of the crust in a steel pan.   

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on June 27, 2012, 11:18:49 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on June 27, 2012, 11:19:52 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on June 27, 2012, 11:20:26 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on June 27, 2012, 12:37:15 PM
Norma

I know what you mean about the timing on thick pan pies like your Sicilian. I usually cook a pie like that for around 22-25 minutes. I like to start at a high heat like 500 for the first 5 minutes to get good oven spring, then I usually turn my oven down to 450-425 to assure that the dough cooks through without becoming burnt and/or dry. It's a balancing act and every oven is a little different.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Jimbo53 on June 27, 2012, 02:47:35 PM
Norma,

The pics above look awesome and delicious.  Was it make using the epoxy method or the standard method you used back at around reply 26 of this thread.

Jimmy
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on June 27, 2012, 03:08:45 PM
Norma

I know what you mean about the timing on thick pan pies like your Sicilian. I usually cook a pie like that for around 22-25 minutes. I like to start at a high heat like 500 for the first 5 minutes to get good oven spring, then I usually turn my oven down to 450-425 to assure that the dough cooks through without becoming burnt and/or dry. It's a balancing act and every oven is a little different.

Dave,

You are so right about timing of thick pies.  I am sure your methods and explanations will help others that might be having problems getting the right amount of oven spring and also how the inside dough will bake right.  Thanks for the tips!  :) How long do you proof your Sicilian doughs in the pan?

Even in my deck oven I found the top deck works better.  There is lower head space on that deck, but also a little lower temperature. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on June 27, 2012, 03:09:35 PM
Norma,

The pics above look awesome and delicious.  Was it make using the epoxy method or the standard method you used back at around reply 26 of this thread.

Jimmy


Jimmy,

Thanks for the kind comments about the Sicilian pizza.  :) I have been using the standard method.  I was only experimenting with the epoxy method to see what would happen.

If you need any help in how I mix, or anything else, let me know.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: dmcavanagh on June 27, 2012, 03:19:29 PM
Norma

I don't really time the pan rise, I just know when they're ready. I guess if I had to put a number on it, probably about 2-3 hours, a lot depends on ambient temperature in the house.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on June 27, 2012, 03:49:38 PM
Norma

I don't really time the pan rise, I just know when they're ready. I guess if I had to put a number on it, probably about 2-3 hours, a lot depends on ambient temperature in the house.

Dave,

Thanks!  You are right it all depends on the ambinet temperature and probably how much yeast was used in the formulation.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on July 05, 2012, 07:03:51 AM
This was just another Sicilian pizza.  Somehow I forgot the oregano in the dressings.  The dough ball sat out at hot room temperatures too long, but it still turned out okay.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on July 05, 2012, 07:04:50 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on July 05, 2012, 07:05:51 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on July 23, 2012, 09:37:43 PM
Just to see what would happen, I did a test batch of Sicilian dough using the same formulation as before, but used a little less water and KAAP.  This was the dough ball that was mixed this morning in my Kitchen Aid mixer.  I used the flat beater first, then left the dough sit for 10 minutes to try and hydrate the flour better, then mixed on speed 1 with the dough hook for 7 minutes.  The dough felt about the same as before.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on July 26, 2012, 08:52:09 AM
The Sicilian pizza made with KAAP and a little less water turned out well.  The crumb was a little more dense looking, but still was moist and soft to chew.  The dough opened well and the bottom browned okay. Two of the pictures show what the dough looks like in the steel pan right after it was opened, and put in the steel pan, and after it had proofed.  Three cheeses and Greek Oregano are used on the Sicilian pizza in addition to my regular pizza sauce.  This was a one day cold fermented dough mixed in my Kitchen Aid mixer.  The flat beater was used first to incorporated the ingredients, then was changed to the dough hook to finish mixing the dough.

My great-granddaughter and grandson where dancing to the Elmo pizza song after I made this pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on July 26, 2012, 08:53:25 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on July 26, 2012, 08:54:37 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on July 26, 2012, 08:55:45 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on July 26, 2012, 08:57:40 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 01, 2012, 11:53:44 PM
I tried another experimental Sicilian pizza with KAAP.  I used 15 grams less water in the formulation.  I am not sure, but think I like KAAP flour better than GM Full Strength flour in the same formulation.  The crumb is very moist, the other edges get nice and crispy and the bottom crust browns well.  I did use corn oil to oil the steel pan.

Norma 
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 01, 2012, 11:54:37 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 01, 2012, 11:55:46 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 01, 2012, 11:56:50 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 09, 2012, 06:35:33 PM
This was just another Sicilian pizza made with KAAP and less water.  I think I am done testing the KAAP for a Sicilian pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Pete-zza on August 09, 2012, 06:49:08 PM
This was just another Sicilian pizza made with KAAP and less water.  I think I am done testing the KAAP for a Sicilian pizza.

Norma,

Why is that?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 09, 2012, 08:10:28 PM
Norma,

Why is that?

Peter

Peter,

I do like KAAP and might use it to make the Sicilian pizzas for market, but first need to price a 50 lb. bag of KAAP to see how it compares in price to GM Full Strength flour.  I think I tested the KAAP enough and basically I had the same results as using GM Full Strength flour, but the crumb is a little denser, but still moist.  I also have a 50 lb. bag of GM Full Strength flour I need to use up.  I still would like to switch over to all non bromated flours for market pizzas, but am not decided on that.  I have to wait and see how much cheese prices, flours and other ingredients might go up because of the drought in the US.  Did you see any indicators of how much ingredients will go up for pizza in the next year?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Pete-zza on August 09, 2012, 08:33:06 PM
I have to wait and see how much cheese prices, flours and other ingredients might go up because of the drought in the US.  Did you see any indicators of how much ingredients will go up for pizza in the next year?

Norma,

Everything I have been reading points to significant increases in the prices of ingredients that go into pizzas, because of the drought and other shortages around the world. This article is typical of what I have been reading: http://www.newsday.com/news/world/global-food-reserves-falling-as-drought-wilts-crops-1.3894493.

Today it hit 111 degrees F where I am, which apparently set a new record for this date. This morning when I woke up it was a pleasant 78 degrees F.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 09, 2012, 08:55:52 PM
Norma,

Everything I have been reading points to significant increases in the prices of ingredients that go into pizzas, because of the drought and other shortages around the world. This article is typical of what I have been reading: http://www.newsday.com/news/world/global-food-reserves-falling-as-drought-wilts-crops-1.3894493.

Today it hit 111 degrees F where I am, which apparently set a new record for this date. This morning when I woke up it was a pleasant 78 degrees F.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks you for the link to what you have been reading.  I thought there would be significant increases in the prices of ingredients that go into pizzas, because of the drought and other shortages around the world.  For a one day a week pizza place like I have, it is tough if prices go up a lot and sales also don’t go up.  I try to use all good pizza ingredients for my pizzas.  Now they also have that oil refinery fire, that they say are also making gasoline prices rise.  It doesn’t look good.

A temperature of 111 degrees F is also hard to take.  It has been in the 100’s a few days in our area, but that is nothing like where you live, or where other members live.  I can imagine 78 degrees F felt pretty good to you this morning.

My air-conditioner in my van conked out about a month ago and I have decided not to get it fixed this summer, so when I go away it is usually quite warm.  I thought I used to survive without air-conditioners in a vehicle, so why can’t I do the same now.  So far I have been managing okay with no air-conditioner in my van.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: brogers on August 11, 2012, 09:15:54 AM
Looks fantastic, I will give this a try
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 11, 2012, 09:37:05 AM
Looks fantastic, I will give this a try

brogers,

Thanks!  :)  If you need any help in what I do, let me know.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: fcbuilder on August 17, 2012, 12:09:41 AM
Thank you Norma very much for all your hard work creating this recipe! Here are some pic's of my Sicilian pie using your recipe.
I used Kabf .The dough was meant for a smaller rectangle pan but last minute decided on a round deep dish pan ,so it was a little thin.
p.s. my kids devoured it!!
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 17, 2012, 06:55:13 AM
Thank you Norma very much for all your hard work creating this recipe! Here are some pic's of my Sicilian pie using your recipe.
I used Kabf .The dough was meant for a smaller rectangle pan but last minute decided on a round deep dish pan ,so it was a little thin.
p.s. my kids devoured it!!

FC,

I am glad you liked the formulation.  Your pictures of your Sicilian pie look great!  ;D  I am also glad you kids liked your pie.  It is good to know that the formulation can be used in a round deep dish pan to make a thinner pizza.  I never tried that before, but might after your post.  It is also good to know that KABF can be used in the formulation.  Thanks for posting your pictures. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 17, 2012, 06:59:41 AM
I was back to using GM Full Strength flour again for this past Tuesday.  I only took one picture, but the GM Full Strength seems to work just about the same as KAAP in the same formulation.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: fcbuilder on August 17, 2012, 01:50:52 PM
Thanks again Norma, The pan was 16" dia. The pizza was great coming out of the oven but then got a little chewy when it was getting cold.Great reheated though ! Next time I will use Kaap it should help with that problem.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 17, 2012, 02:14:23 PM
FC,
That Sicilian is a beauty...
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: fcbuilder on August 17, 2012, 05:00:36 PM
Thanks CB! norma hooked it up!
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 17, 2012, 05:09:19 PM
Thanks CB! norma hooked it up!
She's a clever lady, that one..... ;)
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 17, 2012, 06:14:19 PM
Thanks again Norma, The pan was 16" dia. The pizza was great coming out of the oven but then got a little chewy when it was getting cold.Great reheated though ! Next time I will use Kaap it should help with that problem.

FC,

Thanks for telling me what size pan you used.  I don't think I have a 16" round pan, so I would have to use the expanded dough calculation tool to figure how much dough I would need for my round steel pan.  KAAP did give a light crust for me.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 17, 2012, 06:16:03 PM
She's a clever lady, that one..... ;)

Thanks Bob!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2012, 07:57:05 AM
This post is to just explain that I did a little experiment with mixing and balling to see what would happen when using the same formulation and GM Full Strength flour. 

I didn’t mixed quite as long and didn’t ball as tight as I usually do when making this Sicilian dough.  I usually ball until the dough ball feels a little tight, but this time I just balled when the dough was somewhat limp (that is from the higher hydration dough, in my opinion).  This dough is always a little sticky, but this time the dough was more sticky.  I wanted to see if when balling not until some of the stickiness went away if the crumb structure would still stay light.  I also opened the dough ball when it was still cold right out of the deli case.  I am not really sure, but think the crumb structure would be compromised by the not balling as tight.  As can be seen the rest of the Sicilian pizza looks about the same, but the crumb structure was tighter.  The dough ball fermented well

I don’t really know, but guess that there has to be enough strength in the dough, either while mixing, or while balling for the crumb structure to become lighter.  At least that is what I think happened with this dough.  I should not have opened the dough ball cold and then proofed.  I think if I would have waited until the dough ball warm-up and then panned the dough, then I would have more conclusive results.  I think it is interesting even with minor changes that a crumb structure can turn out differently. 

The Sicilian pizza tasted the same, but I prefer a more open crumb structure.

I didn’t take any pictures of the dough ball after balling, because at the time, really didn’t think it would matter that much.

Norma   
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2012, 07:57:52 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: fcbuilder on August 23, 2012, 02:30:24 PM
The pizza looks amazing! Have you been selling them at the market yet? Great thing about the sicilian pie's is that you can have a bunch of them in the pan's proofing and cook them off when you need them.By the look of them I think they would sell just as much as the ny's if not better! take care fc
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2012, 02:53:56 PM
The pizza looks amazing! Have you been selling them at the market yet? Great thing about the sicilian pie's is that you can have a bunch of them in the pan's proofing and cook them off when you need them.By the look of them I think they would sell just as much as the ny's if not better! take care fc

FC,

Thanks, and yes I have been trying to sell the Sicilian pizzas at market.  They aren’t taking off too fast, but I am selling some to repeat customers.  The market customers are a tough bunch to try and change their minds about trying to sell different styles of pizzas.  I had tried the Mellow Mushroom clone pizzas and couldn’t even sell one pie a week.  I also am making Greek style pizzas from my regular Lehmann dough and they are starting to sell better.  I guess my customers in my neck of the woods really just like NY style pizzas.  I recently introduced NY style white pizzas and they are selling better than the Sicilian pies, or the Greek pizzas.  I guess it all depends on where you are located in what type of pies customers prefer too.  Either that, or I am not located in the right place at market for all the customers that come to market to be able to see what I offer.  I think it might have something to do with the part of market I am located.  I am in the slowest part of market.  I used to have a stand with my husband in the busy part of market and I know how many potential customers walked by that stand. I was at that stand for a lot of years.  In comparison, I see how many potential customers walk by my pizza stand now.  I have asked the manager of the market if I can move if a new space becomes available.  I have no idea if I ever will be able to move or not.  The market manager has given me some options about putting some of the money I spend towards rent into advertising in the newspaper, on his website, or the markets facebook page, but I think that my product is an impulse product if someone never tried it before.  I do have many repeat customers, but think I could get more if I was located elsewhere in the market.  I am undecided of what to do right now about the offer for advertising.   

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 23, 2012, 03:22:41 PM
"I am undecided of what to do right now about the offer for advertising. "

If it was me, Norma, I'd just wait it out till you can get a better spot. You have the right idea about pizza being an impulse buy while people are there at the market. People know there is food there and they are going to choose what to eat according to how they feel that day...they know you are there.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: fcbuilder on August 23, 2012, 04:20:16 PM
Norma you might have tried this before. you can try giving out free samples of the Sicilian through the market.Let them know where you are and the pizza speaks for it self!fc
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2012, 04:32:50 PM
"I am undecided of what to do right now about the offer for advertising. "

If it was me, Norma, I'd just wait it out till you can get a better spot. You have the right idea about pizza being an impulse buy while people are there at the market. People know there is food there and they are going to choose what to eat according to how they feel that day...they know you are there.

Bob,

It is really hard to explain how the market I go to is.  After being in the area I am for over 3 years, there are many potential customers that never saw my pizza stand.  I get customers each week that ask me when I started at market.  They think I am a new stand.   :-D  I am not really good at estimating, but I think only about less than 5% of the people that come to market, on any given week, have actually seen my pizza stand.  That is how busy the other parts of market are.  Most of the other parts of market have much more food than my part of market does.  When the manager said I could start my pizza stand in the area I am now in, he wanted food back in that area to draw more people back to that area.  That really didn't happen. It would be hard to explain everything.  The market I go to is very big and some customers just go on their normal route and don't ever deviate from their normal route.

I could ramble on forever, but it is no use to do that.

Norma    
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2012, 04:39:03 PM
Norma you might have tried this before. you can try giving out free samples of the Sicilian through the market.Let them know where you are and the pizza speaks for it self!fc

FC,

No, I haven't tried to give out samples of the Sicilian slices, but have put up coupons for money off of normal slices on 9 bulletin boards.  The only people that used them were standholders, after about 3 months.  I also had my daughter and a friend try to give out coupons for money off slices and no one would even take the coupons.  I also have placed adds for my pizza stand in both bathroom bulletin boards and also on the other bulletin boards, but I don't think any customers look at them.

Norma 
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: fcbuilder on August 23, 2012, 04:48:53 PM
Free food goes a long way, especially when it looks as good as yours ! People drive hours for good food , for you they just have to walk...just my two cents.good luck ! FC
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2012, 05:03:55 PM
Free food goes a long way, especially when it looks as good as yours ! People drive hours for good food , for you they just have to walk...just my two cents.good luck ! FC


FC,

Thanks for the idea.  :) I might have to give your idea a try.  I know I have different people that come by my stand and say they likes the looks of my pizzas, but have already eaten other foods at market.  Different people that come to market only come one time a year and some come everyweek.  We also have lots of tourists that are only at market on time and then are gone.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 23, 2012, 07:28:36 PM
Have someone at the entrance give out 'lil pizza samples on a small paper plate that has market directions to your stand and a discount stamped on the back of the paper plate.... ;D
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2012, 07:41:40 PM
Have someone at the entrance give out 'lil pizza samples on a small paper plate that has market directions to your stand and a discount stamped on the back of the paper plate.... ;D

Bob,

Thanks for your great idea, but there are so many entrances I could not count them all, unless I went around the whole market.  Even with all the entrances there are also many different parking lots, with some being at the different golf courses, which aren't even on that picture.

Root's market is really big.   :-D  I even have a small entrance beside my stand, but it is not a main entrance.

Edit again:  If you look at all those buildings each building has many entrances, on the front and back of the buildings and even on each end of the buildings.  There are also many outside stands.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 23, 2012, 07:46:38 PM
Bob,

It is really hard to explain how the market I go to is.  After being in the area I am for over 3 years, there are many potential customers that never saw my pizza stand.  I get customers each week that ask me when I started at market.  They think I am a new stand.   :-D  I am not really good at estimating, but I think only about less than 5% of the people that come to market, on any given week, have actually seen my pizza stand.  That is how busy the other parts of market are.  Most of the other parts of market have much more food than my part of market does.  When the manager said I could start my pizza stand in the area I am now in, he wanted food back in that area to draw more people back to that area.  That really didn't happen. It would be hard to explain everything.  The market I go to is very big and some customers just go on their normal route and don't ever deviate from their normal route.

I could ramble on forever, but it is no use to do that.

Norma   
Now we're getting somewhere Norma...I believe this info paints an entirely different picture for most of us who were visualizing your market.
5% of the markets traffic volume reaching your area is a big bummer. I'm going to think about this for awhile but I can definitely say right now that your kicking in advertising dollars to the owner of the market is not going to get more people back to your area. This is going to require much better strategy....this place must be huge.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2012, 08:01:33 PM
Now we're getting somewhere Norma...I believe this info paints an entirely different picture for most of us who were visualizing your market.
5% of the markets traffic volume reaching your area is a big bummer. I'm going to think about this for awhile but I can definitely say right now that your kicking in advertising dollars to the owner of the market is not going to get more people back to your area. This is going to require much better strategy....this place must be huge.

Bob,

The market manager doesn’t want me to kick in more money for advertising.  He said he would cut my rent, then charge me commission on what I make for the month.  I haven’t really talked to him more, but did ask what if I made more money with a commission onto my rent.  He said he is figuring that out on paper and I really won’t be paying anymore rent than I do now.  The money that he discounts from my rent either he or I together would figure out something.  I am not sure what he plans, but he said something about newspaper ads, facebook, or the markets website.  I know the markets website isn’t hardly ever updated and neither is the markets facebook page.  I know hardly anyone in our area reads the newspaper anymore and sure would not probably look at a small ad.  The market manager wants to make me happy where I am now, because I have been at market for many years.  My husbands and my stand that we formerly had was the oldest stand at the market.  That stand was started by my husbands parents in 1928. 

I need to talk to the market manager more, because he says I have the option anytime.  I told him my food item really is an impulse purchase and people need to walk by my stand to see what I have to offer.  If they don’t like what I have to offer, that is okay with me, but I just need more people walking by my stand.  If I could I would put a trailer outside in the summer, but then that would me I would have to trust someone to make the pizzas the way I wanted them made.  That could also be a problem. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 23, 2012, 08:31:42 PM
Wow!!  That is big Norma....really big. Thanks for the aerial photo and yes, I was noting all the various outbuildings and open air stalls. Do you vendors know the average head count for a typical Tuesday? How do the shoppers that park in the axillary (golf course) lots reach the market? Your photo kinda gives the impression that there are only 2 main roads leading in for the folks that are able to park on site. If you give me the market address I can get into this with better views of the grounds a little more to my liking...thanks.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2012, 09:01:55 PM
Wow!!  That is big Norma....really big. Thanks for the aerial photo and yes, I was noting all the various outbuildings and open air stalls. Do you vendors know the average head count for a typical Tuesday? How do the shoppers that park in the axillary (golf course) lots reach the market? Your photo kinda gives the impression that there are only 2 main roads leading in for the folks that are able to park on site. If you give me the market address I can get into this with better views of the grounds a little more to my liking...thanks.

Bob,

Root’s address is at the bottom of the page on this link. http://www.rootsmarket.com/  This is the one golf course.  http://www.evergreengolfinc.com/  The other one is a pick and putt.  These are the auctions at Root’s.  http://www.rootsmarket.com/auctions.asp This is also the location and it shows there are eight parking lots.  http://www.rootsmarket.com/location.asp  If you click to enlarge the aerial photo, you can see a better aerial view of Root’s.  My stand is located near the end of the second building next to the last right parking lot.  I am in area #4.  The main place that is outside where many customers go in in front of the longest building in the about the middle of the aerial photo.  I think around 5,000 customers come there each week, depending on the weather and also what time of year it is.  There is also a big auction called Conestoga Auction that is operated each Tuesday too.  http://www.conestogaauction.com/  The people walk from the golf courses when the main parking lots are full.  When someone goes to the other parts of market, most of the time, you can’t even walk without bumping into people.  It is usually that full, unless the weather is bad, or in the winter.  I have know many of the stand holders for many years and talked to many of them and they all tell me that it is my location as why I don’t get the amount of potential customers that other areas of the market do.  I know that is true.  I also know other vendors that have moved from my area and now at doing so great.  There is also a big outside area near the restrooms that have loads of picnic tables and many food stands there too.  That area is always crowded.  The big flea and antique market across the street also has different food vendors.  That is also where i was at one time with the funnel cake stand.

I have been trying to think of ideas, since the market manager spoke to me, about ways that I could advertise that might work.  I told Steve what if the market manager would let me use the difference in the money I paid to give free slices of pizza out and then the market would announce that over the loudspeaker system that I was giving free slices of pizzas for a while each week if that might work to get more potential customers to come to my stand.  I really don’t know how that would work either, or if the market manger would allow me to do that.     

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 23, 2012, 09:45:17 PM
Thanks so much Norma... I'm going to look all this over carefully. Ha!  ;D  a loudspeaker announcement of FREE PIZZA in that place would probably create a stampede, impossible to keep up with the exagerated panic demand and might very well leave many thinking "I'll never go back into that area"    ;)
Also, IMHO, do NOT make a deal with the devil. No way do you want someone else knowing how much you sell. I completely understand that you have a long standing trustworthy relationship at that market....so does that manager. Commissions off of your sales, disconts on/towards your rent, whatever, is a big time no-no in my book.
I think I have some ideas you will find interesting..I'll post them up soon and return this thread back on topic.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2012, 10:03:49 PM
Thanks so much Norma... I'm going to look all this over carefully. Ha!  ;D  a loudspeaker announcement of FREE PIZZA in that place would probably create a stampede, impossible to keep up with the exagerated panic demand and might very well leave many thinking "I'll never go back into that area"    ;)
Also, IMHO, do NOT make a deal with the devil. No way do you want someone else knowing how much you sell. I completely understand that you have a long standing trustworthy relationship at that market....so does that manager. Commissions off of your sales, disconts on/towards your rent, whatever, is a big time no-no in my book.
I think I have some ideas you will find interesting..I'll post them up soon and return this thread back on topic.

Bob,

What you posted is some of the reasons I have been thinking this over of what to do.  I do okay in sales, but know I could do much better if I were in another part of the market.  I really didn't want to start posting about what was going on, but then FC asked me about if I started selling the Sicilian pizzas.  I then thought I should explain.  Market has always been fair to me, so I don't think they would do anything otherwise now.  My husbands parents were the last ones to pay only by commission in the market, after all the other stand holders had to pay a monthly rate.  They did make out better that way, but I don't know how that would be now and I really don't want the market to know how much I do or don't make in sales.

Thanks for your help.  :)

Norma

Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: fcbuilder on August 23, 2012, 10:42:58 PM
I am sorry for starting this discussion :-[ I made another sicilian pie tonight using your recipe. I used kaap for this one and it came out much better! 
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 23, 2012, 11:15:07 PM
I am sorry for starting this discussion :-[ I made another sicilian pie tonight using your recipe. I used kaap for this one and it came out much better! 
Don't be silly fc........each pie is looking better as you go. Thanks for the pics !
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2012, 11:29:47 PM
I am sorry for starting this discussion :-[ I made another sicilian pie tonight using your recipe. I used kaap for this one and it came out much better! 

FC,

There is no need to apologize or be embarrassed of what you posted. 

Your Sicilian pie looks great!  :)  I am glad you like using KAAP in your Sicilian dough.  Your crumb shot also looks really good.

Thanks for posting your pictures!

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 24, 2012, 09:37:54 AM
Since I already posted more about market, this is a picture from a flyer from Root’s that I had at home and scanned and copied.  It shows all the parking lots, expect the ones at the golf course.  When it is the busy at market all of these parking lots are full and that is when customers park in the golf course parking lot or the pitch and putt parking lot (which also aren’t show).  This aerial shot shows better where all the building are located because they are marked by numbers.  I am located in area #4 near the back end of the building right next to that back parking lot. 

The next scan is one of the history of Root’s if anyone is interested.  It might be hard to read about the history of Root’s on a scan, so if there are any questions, I can answer them.  My late husband and his parents were stand holders at Root’s when the big fire was in 1972. That fire destroyed 75% of the main market building (area #1). The old part of the market building can still be told from the old beams, wooden structure and wood beams.  The old market building was subsequently rebuilt in 15 weeks during which time the weekly market was held outside in good weather.  Hurricane Agnes caused that fire by all the rain that must have gotten wires wet in the old building.  Building #5 is the newest building and houses a full restaurant, along with a lot of other vendor stands.  My husbands parents lost everything in that fire, but the tray that the caramel corn was poured in when it was finished baking.  That stainless steel tray is still at the caramel corn stand and is still being used by the new owners.  The stand holders all had to go outside for awhile, until a new building was built.  My husband parents and him were in first old building and then moved down to  area #2 after the old building was rebuilt and then area #2 was added.  Area #3, #4 and #5 were added later.  My late husband told me about when the market building was heated by wood stoves only.  Since Root’s market is so old, they never had running water piped in under the floors.  That is one reason it is so hard to get a stand with running water for food items.  Back in older times stands weren’t required to have running water by the Pa. Dept. of Agriculture.  If any food stands need running water now, they need to dig though the macadam and hook up to where the main water lines run.  My water for my market stand has to be run from the sausage sandwich and sausage products stand which is in the middle of area #4.  I needed a special pump to pump my waste water up to that stand too, before I opened.  That is another reason why it is so hard for a food vendor that prepares food to move to another market stand if running water isn’t already there, or in an adjacent stand.   

To explain a little more about outside stands, they are located outside of area #!, #2, #6, #9 and all the areas around there.  Some are right out in the open with no roofs or protection.  Behind area #1 there is a big picnic area and other food vendors.  That is also where the restrooms are located.  They are in the one building that was just built about a year ago.  I always get questions where the restrooms are located and do give directions.  They are the only restrooms at market and anyone has to walk outside to get to them.  They are much improved from the old restrooms that were there for many years. 

Any other questions, just ask.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 24, 2012, 09:39:23 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: fcbuilder on August 24, 2012, 01:27:02 PM
Thanks all  :) I see what you mean , the market looks very big . It is probably not that easy getting recognized with such a big place ,especially when it is only open one day a week.Hopefully you can find a better location. Good luck  fc.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 24, 2012, 08:10:56 PM
Thanks all  :) I see what you mean , the market looks very big . It is probably not that easy getting recognized with such a big place ,especially when it is only open one day a week.Hopefully you can find a better location. Good luck  fc.

FC,

Thanks for the good luck!  :)

It really isn’t how big the market is, it is where I am located which isn’t the best.  The main areas customers go in are area #1 & #2, followed by area #3, then area #5 and lastly my area, especially the back of building #4.  There aren’t any fresh vegetables, fruits, or other food vendors back in my area. In the spring, summer and fall the outside is packed with people most of the day

If customers walk around with bags (which they usually do) for awhile, they can get tired very easily because the market is so big.  Regular market goers have their own routines and stands that they always go to and don’t vary very much.  Market isn’t air-conditioned either, so when it is really hot people don’t walk around as much.

When we used to have our caramel popcorn stand many customers would say they only came inside in the summer to purchase our caramel popcorn and then went outside again.  I know most of the stand holders in the main building and they all say the same thing to me that I am located in a really bad area.  At least I make enough money to keep doing what I like and that is making pizza.  I am fortunate that enough customers have found me in the location I am in and also stand holders purchase pizza from me.

I just wish I could think of a way to get more customers to just walk by my stand.  If they don’t like the looks of my pizzas that is okay with me, but at least they saw them.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2012, 02:39:11 PM
I went to longer mix time and also to fold the dough ball a little more.  I think that might be the best approach for me in making this type of pizza. I am still using more cheddar than mozzarella on this kind of pizza.  Just by looking at the finished pizza and tasting it, it would be hard in my opinion to know that more cheddar cheese is used.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2012, 02:39:58 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2012, 02:40:36 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: weemis on September 04, 2012, 11:27:50 AM
Hey Norma,

Normally, I'm a WFO guy, but had a blue moon party to go to and wanted to bring some pizza to the party. I have a 50 lb bag of full strength (free sample) that I'm trying to get rid of, so when I read this post, I figured I'd give it a try. I made it twice in the last week. A 3 day cold ferment and a 22 hr cold ferment. It was kind of like a focaccia/sicilian hybrid. I had a plethora of over-ripe tomatoes, so I just used the dough recipe and topped it with sliced tomato, some thinly sliced candy onions and shredded mozz/provo with some fresh herbs, Olive Oil and grated parm post bake. I didn't have a steel pan, so I used a ceramic 17x11ish pampered chef pan my mom gave me years ago. I had to cut the temp back to 450ish to make it all work, but work it did!

Amazing! The 3 day ferment was noticeably better than the 22 hour.  I'd definitely ferment 3 days if I did it again! Thanks for the recipe and your documentation of it all! I'll be playing with this one much more, as it's now a delicious option for non-WFO deliciousness as I use up the flour! Hopefully pics next time!
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on September 04, 2012, 09:51:50 PM
Hey Norma,

Normally, I'm a WFO guy, but had a blue moon party to go to and wanted to bring some pizza to the party. I have a 50 lb bag of full strength (free sample) that I'm trying to get rid of, so when I read this post, I figured I'd give it a try. I made it twice in the last week. A 3 day cold ferment and a 22 hr cold ferment. It was kind of like a focaccia/sicilian hybrid. I had a plethora of over-ripe tomatoes, so I just used the dough recipe and topped it with sliced tomato, some thinly sliced candy onions and shredded mozz/provo with some fresh herbs, Olive Oil and grated parm post bake. I didn't have a steel pan, so I used a ceramic 17x11ish pampered chef pan my mom gave me years ago. I had to cut the temp back to 450ish to make it all work, but work it did!

Amazing! The 3 day ferment was noticeably better than the 22 hour.  I'd definitely ferment 3 days if I did it again! Thanks for the recipe and your documentation of it all! I'll be playing with this one much more, as it's now a delicious option for non-WFO deliciousness as I use up the flour! Hopefully pics next time!

weemis,

I am glad the dough recipe worked out for you and you liked it.  I can imagine from the longer fermentation time that your Sicilian pies had a better crust taste than mine do with your 3 day cold ferment.  I like GM Full Strength for this formulation, but KAAP also worked. 

Your choice of dressing sure sounds good.  :) I am also glad your ceramic pampered chef worked out okay for you. Good thinking to decrease the temperature when using a different pan.   

I think this is a easy method for a Sicilian pie.

I would be interested in seeing some pictures if you can post some another time. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on September 06, 2012, 08:21:23 AM
I did another experiment of only proofing the dough in the steel pan for ˝ hr., instead of the usual 1 hr. or more.  The steel pan with the dough was placed on top of my oven to proof for ˝ hr.  The resulting crumb was lighter.  I would have thought proofing the dough for a longer period would have produced a lighter crust, but this was one time it didn’t.  The dough ball was warmed-up for a longer time before it was floured and placed in the steel pan though.  That also could have been why the crumb was lighter.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on September 06, 2012, 08:22:20 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 06, 2012, 10:28:06 AM
That is a pretty dough Norma...looks like it would eat very nicely.... light.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on September 06, 2012, 10:59:06 AM
That is a pretty dough Norma...looks like it would eat very nicely.... light.

Thanks Bob!  :)  Steve and I really like Sicilian pies. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: weemis on September 06, 2012, 11:03:02 AM
Indeed beautiful! the steel pan does a beautiful job of browning, and your crust looks delicious! how long was the dough at room temp before going into the steel pan for proofing?
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on September 06, 2012, 12:00:50 PM
Indeed beautiful! the steel pan does a beautiful job of browning, and your crust looks delicious! how long was the dough at room temp before going into the steel pan for proofing?

weemis,

Those steel pans do a good job of browning.  I use a fair amount of corn oil to oil the steel pan.  The dough ball was at room temperature for about 2 hrs. and it was very warm and muggy.  If you want me to take a picture of the dough ball next week before I open it and put it into the steel pan I can.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: fcbuilder on September 07, 2012, 02:47:27 PM
Beautiful as always Norma ;D
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on September 07, 2012, 06:13:32 PM
Beautiful as always Norma ;D

FC,

Thanks for your kind comment!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on September 13, 2012, 08:43:45 AM
I tried an experiment with not letting the dough proof in the pan as long to see what would happen.  After the dough ball was opened and placed in the steel pan with the metal lid on, I placed the tray on the top of my oven for ˝ hr.  I usually let the dough proof in the pan for an hour or more on the top of my oven. 

The resulting pizza had a gum line.  I am not sure if the gum line came from not proofing the dough long enough, but it appeared to me that is what caused the gum line.  The slices still tasted the same, but I sure don’t want a gum line.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on September 13, 2012, 08:44:20 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on September 13, 2012, 08:45:00 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Don K on September 13, 2012, 10:28:57 AM
Norma, when you make all these different kinds of pizzas, do you sell them at them at the market or do you just sell the Lehmann dough pies? Just curious.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on September 13, 2012, 11:44:59 AM
Norma, when you make all these different kinds of pizzas, do you sell them at them at the market or do you just sell the Lehmann dough pies? Just curious.

Don,

Right now I am selling NY style Lehmann dough pies, Greek pizzas and Sicilian pies at market.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Don K on September 13, 2012, 11:56:01 AM
Don,

Right now I am selling NY style Lehmann dough pies, Greek pizzas and Sicilian pies at market.

Norma
I have to go to Baltimore in a few weeks. I may have to make a detour on the way home and check your place out. How far are you from the PA Turnpike?
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on September 13, 2012, 12:22:06 PM
I have to go to Baltimore in a few weeks. I may have to make a detour on the way home and check your place out. How far are you from the PA Turnpike?

Don,

The closest exits to the Pa. turnpike to Root’s would be either Lebanon, Lancaster http://wikimapia.org/9846406/PA-Turnpike-I-76-Exit-266-20-Lebanon-Lancaster or http://wikimapia.org/#lat=40.2314215&lon=-76.4377535&z=15&l=0&m=b&v=8&search=pa.%20turnpike%20denver%20exit  I am not sure which exit is closer to Root’s.  Steve lives right near the Denver exit.

It would be great to meet you if you can make it to Root’s.  :)

Root's is only about 20 minutes from Mount Hope Winery, right off of route 72.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Don K on September 13, 2012, 02:19:29 PM
Don,

The closest exits to the Pa. turnpike to Root’s would be either Lebanon, Lancaster http://wikimapia.org/9846406/PA-Turnpike-I-76-Exit-266-20-Lebanon-Lancaster or http://wikimapia.org/#lat=40.2314215&lon=-76.4377535&z=15&l=0&m=b&v=8&search=pa.%20turnpike%20denver%20exit  I am not sure which exit is closer to Root’s.  Steve lives right near the Denver exit.

It would be great to meet you if you can make it to Root’s.  :)

Root's is only about 20 minutes from Mount Hope Winery, right off of route 72.

Norma
I was just looking at a map. I may have actually been to Root's before! When I was a kid, we used to visit my dad's relatives in Pa. Most of them are in western Pa. (Brownsville/Uniontown), but we occasionally would travel farther to my uncle's house. I had to call my dad and ask him where my uncle lived, and sure enough, it was just outside of East Petersburg. I vaguely remember going to a big market with my sisters and cousins. My uncle bought us candy sticks there. This would have been in the early to mid '70's. It's a small world.

It's too bad that I don't have any homebrew to exchange with Steve. Even if I were to make a batch today, it wouldn't be ready in time.

Oh well, I have hijacked this thread enough. I haven't decided whether I will be driving or flying to Baltimore. If I drive, I definitely plan on swinging by your way. In fact, this might be the deciding factor on why I drive.  :chef: :pizza:
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Ev on September 13, 2012, 05:35:56 PM
Don, we'd be more than happy to have you stop by. Like Norma said, I'm only a few minutes from exit 286 on the turnpike. Roots is a little farther but easier from the next exit westbound. It's on the same road you get off on. (rt. 72)
 Don't worry about the homebrew. I've got enough for all of us! ;) :-D
Keep in mind, Roots is a Tuesday only market. Any other day, I'd be happy to fire up the wfo or anything else you might want!
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on September 13, 2012, 06:36:03 PM
I was just looking at a map. I may have actually been to Root's before! When I was a kid, we used to visit my dad's relatives in Pa. Most of them are in western Pa. (Brownsville/Uniontown), but we occasionally would travel farther to my uncle's house. I had to call my dad and ask him where my uncle lived, and sure enough, it was just outside of East Petersburg. I vaguely remember going to a big market with my sisters and cousins. My uncle bought us candy sticks there. This would have been in the early to mid '70's. It's a small world.

It's too bad that I don't have any homebrew to exchange with Steve. Even if I were to make a batch today, it wouldn't be ready in time.

Oh well, I have hijacked this thread enough. I haven't decided whether I will be driving or flying to Baltimore. If I drive, I definitely plan on swinging by your way. In fact, this might be the deciding factor on why I drive.  :chef: :pizza:


Don,

Don’t ever worry about getting any of my threads off-topic.  It doesn’t bother me.  It is a small world that you went to your uncle’s home (near East Petersburg) and remember going to Root’s with your sisters and cousins.  The candy sticks your uncle purchased for you would have been from Smith’s candies.  They have been at Root’s for many years.  Right near that candy stand was were my husbands parents had the caramel popcorn stand. 

Let Steve and me know if you decide to drive and stop at Root’s. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on September 13, 2012, 06:38:41 PM
Don, we'd be more than happy to have you stop by. Like Norma said, I'm only a few minutes from exit 286 on the turnpike. Roots is a little farther but easier from the next exit westbound. It's on the same road you get off on. (rt. 72)
 Don't worry about the homebrew. I've got enough for all of us! ;) :-D
Keep in mind, Roots is a Tuesday only market. Any other day, I'd be happy to fire up the wfo or anything else you might want!

Steve,

The homebrew sounds good.   ;D  We are always happy to get visitors from the forum, right Steve.   ;)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Don K on September 13, 2012, 10:28:41 PM
Thanks for the invitation Norma and Steve. I will let you know. I don't have an exact date yet.
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: fcbuilder on October 01, 2012, 10:23:10 PM
I wanted to try out my new pans!
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Ev on October 01, 2012, 10:27:31 PM
That looks totally delicious, Frankie! :chef:
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on October 02, 2012, 06:27:45 AM
I wanted to try out my new pans!

fc,

I agree with Steve.  Your Sicilian pie looks delicious.  Your crumb structure looks really light too.  Great job!  :chef:

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: fcbuilder on October 02, 2012, 04:22:06 PM
Thanks Steve and Norma! great recipe ;D Light and airy with a crisp fried bottom..great combination. 
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on October 12, 2012, 06:20:54 PM
I forgot to bring this one Sicilian dough ball home on Tuesday.  It had a big bubble on the top today.  I pinched the bubble apart.  I thought the gluten structure was interesting.  I am going to reball this dough ball, let it sit out for a little and then freeze it.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Chicago Bob on October 12, 2012, 08:10:55 PM
Reminds me of that movie "Fantastic Voyage"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantastic_Voyage
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on October 12, 2012, 08:54:26 PM
Reminds me of that movie "Fantastic Voyage"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantastic_Voyage

Bob,

Interesting what you think the gluten looks like.  I never saw the “Fantastic Voyage” movie.

I think it looks like holes in the galaxy.

Maybe, something like this.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW7BvabYnn8&feature=relmfu

Pizza dough is interesting, but sometimes confusing.   8)

Norma
  
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Don K on October 12, 2012, 09:08:27 PM
It looks like albino pumpkin guts...
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on October 12, 2012, 10:18:23 PM
It looks like albino pumpkin guts...

Don,

You sure do know your stuff!   :-D  That is almost exactly what it looked like. 

I took some more pictures after I left the dough ball sit out and since I have reballed it.  The possum is outside now and I can't get it to the freezer yet.   :-D  The dough ball sure must have power, because it just popped the lid again.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on October 12, 2012, 10:52:35 PM
These are the pictures of the dough balls since I brought it home.  The dough ball was left out, reballed, then let to sit out at room temperature more.  It still had plenty of power.  The dough ball felt somewhat clammy before the reball, but still did have gluten structure inside the dough ball.  I will see what happens to it after it is defrosted.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on October 12, 2012, 10:53:18 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Chicago Bob on October 13, 2012, 11:08:44 AM
It looks like albino pumpkin guts...
Speaking of which....what happened with your white one that was in your garden Norma?
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on October 13, 2012, 05:44:54 PM
Speaking of which....what happened with your white one that was in your garden Norma?

Bob,

The white pumpkin in my garden is still there.  If you want me to take a picture of it I can.  I left it on the vine on the ground, in a cooler location, so it might not rot for Halloween.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Chicago Bob on October 13, 2012, 06:43:42 PM
Bob,

The white pumpkin in my garden is still there.  If you want me to take a picture of it I can.  I left it on the vine on the ground, in a cooler location, so it might not rot for Halloween.

Norma
Well, I was jus curious if it had grown more so if you don't mind maybe put a pic of that 'lil dude over on your garden thread. I hope it makes it to Halloween and you guys are able to carve it.  :chef:
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on October 13, 2012, 09:54:48 PM
Well, I was jus curious if it had grown more so if you don't mind maybe put a pic of that 'lil dude over on your garden thread. I hope it makes it to Halloween and you guys are able to carve it.  :chef:

Bob,

That albino pumpkin didn’t grow much, if any, after I took that picture.  I will take a picture tomorrow when it is light outside.  I will post it over on my garden thread.  It won’t be able to be carved for Halloween, because it is too small.  I saw some really neat pumpkins at an Amish farm today, but didn’t’ purchase any.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on October 17, 2012, 07:58:14 PM
This is what happened to the dough ball I had left at market last Tuesday.  I wouldn’t really recommend for anyone to do what I did, but the final pizza did turn out okay with a few twists and turns. 

I left the unfroze dough ball out to warm-up yesterday.  The dough ball was very tight and would not open at all without some tearing.  I left it sit in a steel pan on top of the ovens for many hours.  I had oiled the pan and also the top of the dough.  For the pan I used corn oil and for the top of the dough I used garlic herb infused oil.  Very slowly the dough did spread and become less tight.  The dough never fully covered the pan though, because it still wanted to stretch-back some.  The dough did rise very much in the steel pan though.  At first I had thought maybe the yeast had died, because the dough sure was lifeless. 

The final pizza was good, but it can be seen how thick the pizza is in the crust TF.  I couldn’t get the dough to mend after it tore (I guess from the added garlic herb olive oil), so I just took a part of the regular Lehmann dough and patched it up.  I didn’t know if that would work when baking the pizza, or if that part would then drip dressings to the bottom of the steel pan.  Luckily, it did work and no dressings went to the bottom of the pan.  The sauce dressing on this pie was the same sauce I used on the Papa Gino’s clone attempt yesterday.  With the sauce applied on the top of the cheese, the sauce had a whole different taste.  It was good this way.  I thought it was also interesting how some spots on this crust were higher than other parts.

I don’t think any members would want to go though what I did to make this Sicilian pizza, but the crust did taste good.  I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat when making a pizza.  :-D  At least I learned something from this experiment and found out yeast is very sturdy.  I also learned that dough can be patched even if it is oily, yeast can be redistributed and a tight dough ball can be opened.  At least these were my experiences.   

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on October 17, 2012, 07:59:51 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on October 17, 2012, 08:00:59 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: weemis on October 18, 2012, 03:30:19 PM
Interesting stuff, norma! Thanks for documenting the good, the bad and the ugly! Boldly going where no pizzaiolo has gone before!

your next big hit at the market... dough patch kits!
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Ev on October 18, 2012, 06:41:56 PM
I took most of that pie home and ate most of it myself.  :-[ I never saw the patch again! :-D
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on October 18, 2012, 06:50:16 PM
Interesting stuff, norma! Thanks for documenting the good, the bad and the ugly! Boldly going where no pizzaiolo has gone before!

your next big hit at the market... dough patch kits!

weemis,

Lol, dough patch kits!  :-D  That sure is a good one!!  I usually post about the ugly.  This is a picture that I had to laughed about.  Steve was looking at the pizza made Tuesday and the look on his face was funny and so was the strange looking pizza I made on Tuesday.  One picture can say a million words in my opinion.  Dave, the maintenance man at Root's took this picture and posted it on facebook.  I love the sweet look on Steve's face.   ;D >:D :angel:

I still am trying to figure out how to use the formulation in this thread to try out the same TF for the pizza I made at market Tuesday that is something like a Buddy's/Shields pizza.  

If all goes well until next weekend I am going to a party dressed like a pizza for Halloween.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on October 18, 2012, 06:51:43 PM
I took most of that pie home and ate most of it myself.  :-[ I never saw the patch again! :-D

Steve,

How did the pizza taste after it cooled down?  Good you couldn't see the patch!   :P 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Chicago Bob on October 18, 2012, 06:58:07 PM
EV looks like he's jus not quite sure what he wants to think of that pie.... 8)
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on October 18, 2012, 07:24:42 PM
EV looks like he's jus not quite sure what he wants to think of that pie.... 8)

Bob,

That pizza sure was different looking.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Ev on October 18, 2012, 08:14:14 PM
Tell you what. That pizza right there, re-heated, was about the best tasting sicilian pie Norma has made so far!  :chef: Seriously!
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on October 18, 2012, 08:46:55 PM
Tell you what. That pizza right there, re-heated, was about the best tasting sicilian pie Norma has made so far!  :chef: Seriously!

Steve,

Lol, that is hard to believe.   :o  What that dough went though was tough.  It sure had been abused, but am glad you enjoyed it. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Chicago Bob on October 18, 2012, 10:13:37 PM
I took most of that pie home and ate most of it myself.  :-[ I never saw the patch again! :-D
Thought you would end up posting that it was one of her best.... ;)
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: weemis on October 19, 2012, 08:23:47 AM
If all goes well until next weekend I am going to a party dressed like a pizza for Halloween.  :-D

Norma

Holy crap, norma! This is awesomeness! you MUST get some pictures!
now i wanna go as pizza, too  :pizza:

you're the coolest!
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on October 19, 2012, 08:39:41 AM
Holy crap, norma! This is awesomeness! you MUST get some pictures!
now i wanna go as pizza, too  :pizza:

you're the coolest!

weemis,

If I get to go to the party I will wear a velveteen pizza hat with a pizza on the top and a slice of pizza on my front.  I want to carry a sign something like Kelly posted at Reply 39 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16573.msg161740.html#msg161740  I purchased the stuff off of Ebay, but didn’t receive them yet.

If I don’t get to go to the Halloween party, I probably will just wear the pizza get-up to market.  I like being crazy sometimes.  :P  I am not sure if I will post pictures of the pizza get-up because members probably think I am too crazy already without a pizza suit.   :-D

Hope you get to dress-up like a pizza too.  Post some pictures of yourself if you dress-up like a pizza.  ;D  I sure would be interested in seeing them.  ;)


Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Ev on October 19, 2012, 10:05:51 PM
Oh, don't worry Norma. If you wear it to market, there WILL be pictures! >:D :-D
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on October 19, 2012, 10:39:50 PM
Oh, don't worry Norma. If you wear it to market, there WILL be pictures! >:D :-D

Steve,

Maybe you will forget your camera.  >:D I really don't mind being a pizza for a day or two.  :-D :angel:  Maybe I will get you to wear the pizza and hat and take some pictures of you too.   :-D

Norma   
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Ev on October 20, 2012, 12:58:42 PM
Yeah, well, good luck wit dat! :-D
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Chicago Bob on October 20, 2012, 01:19:05 PM
Steve,

Maybe you will forget your camera.  >:D I really don't mind being a pizza for a day or two.  :-D :angel:  Maybe I will get you to wear the pizza and hat and take some pictures of you too.   :-D

Norma   
How 'bout the Ben Franklin costume for EV, Norma? !   ;D
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on October 20, 2012, 06:12:02 PM
Yeah, well, good luck wit dat! :-D

 >:D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on October 20, 2012, 06:13:06 PM
How 'bout the Ben Franklin costume for EV, Norma? !   ;D

Bob,

Steve should be allowed to post what he would like to be, but Ben Franklin wouldn't be a bad idea.   ;)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on October 29, 2012, 06:15:43 AM
Thanks  :P to all members here on this wonderful forum for helping me on my journey into taking a “Bite” into making better pizzas and I finally became “Norma the Pizza”, at least for an evening.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on October 29, 2012, 12:43:05 PM
I just received this email from Root’s market, as everyone that subscribes to Root’s does.

ROOT'S COUNTRY MARKET & AUCTION
&
ROOT'S OLD MILL FLEA MARKET
will be CLOSED on TUESDAY, OCTOBER 30
DUE TO the IMPENDING ARRIVAL of HURRICANE SANDY.

It is rare that Root's closes.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: Chicago Bob on October 29, 2012, 01:08:21 PM
You were a lovely looking maid of honor at the wedding Norma....very nice!   8)


Title: Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
Post by: norma427 on October 29, 2012, 01:31:22 PM
You were a lovely looking maid of honor at the wedding Norma....very nice!   8)




Thanks Bob!  :)  I had another Halloween outfit to wear, but didn't get it sewed in time.  The theme of that Halloween party was dead, so I guess I looked like a dead pizza.  Other people at that party sure looked a lot more dead than me though.

Norma