Dough snaps when stretching

[jma6610]

I'm guessing with Tom, it was more of a "not needed" than, "don't do it". He definitely advocated for a decent length cold ferment (2-3 days, sometimes 4 days). And I believe at that point, you didn't achieve much by developing full gluten during the mixing process, because the dough will develop its own gluten after the extended stay in the fridge. Just a guess.

I think you're likely right. In everything I can find about his position on this, it's more about more mixing being not needed as opposed to being counterproductive. He does say somewhere that less mixing, however, can make the dough more difficult to work with initially - in a commercial environment - but not necessarily at home. I'm unsure whether this applies to all situations at home, however, since he is often speaking about putting individual dough balls into bags and not everyone does this. I usually make a batch of 10-15 or so at a time and use plastic trays, so initial workability (e.g., lack of stickiness), is still important to me.

The only thing that I've experienced that might be counterproductive with longer mixing (in my Sunmix spiral) is when the dough starts to "pop" and starts to get excessive air bubbles into into it. I have been experimenting with the addition of dough relaxers (as mentioned by Tom), however, so this is another factor that has to be considered.

[HansB]

jma6610,

Within the first minute of the third video (pt.2) that Peter has provided you Tom shows how to tell when your dough (for pizza) is ready.

That looks like a light version of the window pane test at :40.

[jma6610]

To add to my last post, you can actually see Tom go through the dough mixing process to get a smooth dough by looking at the second and third videos in the thread at:

Peter

I paid more attention to Tom's egg test today and compared it with a few different things. I've gone through as much as I can find about what he and others have written about mixing.

First, I'm using a Sunmix 6 spiral, Caputo Nuvolo Super (Type 0, W320-340) and 68% hydration. I'm unsure whether Tom mentioned hydration levels in any of his videos or writing regarding his test. From looking at the dough in his videos, however, they appear to be a lower hydration than I'm using. When I try to pull out an egg-shaped ball of dough earlier than the time to which I normally mix, it's simply too sticky. When I mix to my normal point: 10 minutes @ 100 rpm, 5-10 minutes @150 rpm, 2-5 minutes @ 175 rpm up to 24C, the dough looks smooth (similar to what Tom describes) and I also get a good window pane. When I try to do Tom's egg test even at this point, the dough is still a bit too sticky and I can't really see anything useful. BTW, in one of Tom's written descriptions, he says that what you're looking for is almost impossible to describe in words.

Back to my window pane, when I get a good one, the dough is much more manageable - I can get near 100% of it out of my spiral-mixer's fixed bowl and keep 99% or so off my hands. When I try to do that with less mixing, it's a pain to get it out of the bowl and I get more bowl residue. The bulk ball is also not all that smooth (which Tom describes as less-than-desirable).

Before I got my fermentation times down with this particular flour, however, I was getting too much elasticity and the dough was impossible to open properly with this amount of mixing. Right now, however, I've been including .15% of a papain-based meat tenderizer as a dough relaxer (mentioned by Tom somewhere in this forum several years ago and also recommended by the Modernist Pizza folks, although they seem less-than-precise about desired amounts) and also fermenting much longer than I used to. I haven't yet experimented enough with the dough relaxer to see which of the two things I changed at the same time mattered the most with getting the elasticity down, but will do so more in the future.

I did notice that Tom does say (somewhere) that mixing to a window pane is "unnecessary and undesirable," but I can't find anywhere where he explains *why* it might be undesirable. My guess is that he's thinking that it makes the dough too elastic unless it's fermented/proofed for a long enough period of time and/or some type of dough relaxer is used. I'm also guessing that his egg test may work best only with certain hydration levels that might be more common in a commercial setting.


Comments welcome.

Jeff

[pizzashark]

Using Tipo 00 flour, bulk RT fermentation for 10 hours then CT for 24 hours - 62% hydration.
I knead the dough using commercial spiral mixer at first speed only (it is only 1 speed) for (
around 20 mins.
Does this mean I could be over kneading the dough? I stop when it is very smooth but the thing is it doesnt passes the window pane test. It tears when I stretch it thin although dough is very smooth.

Sorry...what i meant with getting it carefully out of the container was just before stretching....not during the dough making process. Just take the doughball out of the container as carefully as possibly, trying not to fold it in any way in order to maximally keep the round/original shape and be very gentle. Do not attempt to reball/reshape it just prior to stretching.