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Offline jagarda

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My dough isn't stretchy
« on: October 12, 2022, 03:33:07 AM »
When I do my own dough I usually follow this recipe (and have tried a few select others also): https://mypizzacorner.com/pizza-recipes/authentic-neapolitan-pizza-recipe-how-to-make-the-perfect-neapolitan-pizza/
I've tried experimenting with different flour types (all tipo 00) but the brand I prefer is Caputo Pizza. Ive also tried instant dry yeast and fresh yeast but it makes no difference. I use a kitchenaid with a dough hook to mix the ingredients for at least 3-5 min

I can tell a big difference in the way my dough comes out after fermentation, its really stiff even in room temperature and I generally have to stretch it at least 15-20 times before it even reaches a 12 inch size where as in videos when Im looking at other pizza makers their dough is usually very loose and is easily stretched out with 3-5 pulls/slaps. What am I doing wrong? Here is an example of the loose type of dough Im refering to:

Offline kori

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Re: My dough isn't stretchy
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2022, 09:49:19 AM »
When I do my own dough I usually follow this recipe (and have tried a few select others also): https://mypizzacorner.com/pizza-recipes/authentic-neapolitan-pizza-recipe-how-to-make-the-perfect-neapolitan-pizza/
I've tried experimenting with different flour types (all tipo 00) but the brand I prefer is Caputo Pizza. Ive also tried instant dry yeast and fresh yeast but it makes no difference. I use a kitchenaid with a dough hook to mix the ingredients for at least 3-5 min

I can tell a big difference in the way my dough comes out after fermentation, its really stiff even in room temperature and I generally have to stretch it at least 15-20 times before it even reaches a 12 inch size where as in videos when Im looking at other pizza makers their dough is usually very loose and is easily stretched out with 3-5 pulls/slaps. What am I doing wrong? Here is an example of the loose type of dough Im refering to:
I would ball it at least 6-8hrs before stretching, even try up to 12.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2022, 09:50:54 AM by kori »
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Offline jagarda

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Re: My dough isn't stretchy
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2022, 02:58:47 PM »
I usually wait for about 3-4 hours but Im going to try it up to 8 hours first and see the difference. Thanks for the advice!

Offline kori

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Re: My dough isn't stretchy
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2022, 05:59:17 PM »
I usually wait for about 3-4 hours but Im going to try it up to 8 hours first and see the difference. Thanks for the advice!
What is your fermentation temperature? What's your setup for cooking your pizzas?

The hydration for the "00" recipe you are using is 56.25%, I don't make Neapolitan style pizzas but I think that's on the low side.

The lower the hydration the less extensible the dough will be, I would get your hydration up to around 62%, it will still be easy to work with (not sticky) and I think you will find it much easier to stretch along with you incorporating 8hrs in balls.

One thing to be aware of is if you increase your hydration this will increase the "thickness factor" of your pizzas. https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_t
I feel that the recipe you are using is kinda thick for Neapolitan (0.114 TF), don't think you would want to go thicker.

Here is a thread on suggested thickness values for different styles of pizza.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12243.0

Here is the recipe you are using adjusted to 62% hydration.
(4 10" pizza recipe based on approx 19.5c fermentation temperature)

Flour 100%       618g
H2O  62            383g
Salt   2.2          13.6g
IDY   0.033         0.2g

Lastly, I wouldn't waste your time with recipes from the web, lots of misinformation and recipes that just don't work out the way they lead you to believe they will, this is one of those recipes. You are now a member of "The Pizza Making Forum", start exploring around the forum, lots of tried and true recipes here, ask questions and before long you'll be making some kick a** pizza.
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Offline jagarda

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Re: My dough isn't stretchy
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2022, 02:11:23 PM »
Thanks for the detailed answer! My fermentation temperature is about 20-22C. I know that around 18 would be optimal but since I live in a small apartment I have no other option than to keep the dough in my kitchen.

I'll try with a higher hydration level this weekend and let the dough rest for at least 8 hours after Ive balled them and hopefully I'll see some improvement.

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Offline BGPizza

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Re: My dough isn't stretchy
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2022, 11:12:09 PM »
I am excited about your journey into the pizza quest. If your looking to make authentic nepaltano pizza, I suggest this content creator. He is awesome and shares the exact recipe.
The recipe is not the deciding factor, it's the process. The key point about any recipe is the gluten. Your using a kitchen aid mixer like I do. That mixes the dough and creates a chaotic gluten structure. You need to organize that gluten. Do this by hand kneading it for a few minutes. Lifting it up allowing it to fall on the sides, then pressing down on it with the palm of your hand. This is a gentle process, no knead to smash it into oblivion lol. You can feel it when it's ready. It feels soft and squishy at first but then turns into a hard piece of chewing gum. When that happens it's ready for resting. Let it rest for an hour or so. It will expand by about a 3rd or so. Fold it over a couple more times and it will look like rubber(just like the videos). Then porion it and cold ferment it till the next day. At least 12 hour(unless you are pre-fermenting with poolish or biga). BTW for home pizza I suggest ADY (active dry yeast). There are so may variables with this process, the only process you can actually control has nothing to do with the recipe. Have fun and make bread with toppings.

Offline jagarda

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Re: My dough isn't stretchy
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2022, 03:26:06 AM »
Thanks for the advice BGPizza, I've been following this (and several other youtubers) for a while now, but haven't used their recipe yet.

Update on my pizza: I tried adjusting the recipe and use a higher hydration rate (~62%) and let the dough rest at least 14 hours after balling. The dough was definitely stretchy but this time it was very thin in the middle and had small holes when I tried to stretch it too much. I believe this could also be because Im not that good at stretching yet (using the strech & slap method). My dough balls are around 265g for my 12inch pizzas which should be enough.

I might try kneading the dough myself next time to see if it makes a difference. Even if Im using a kitchen mixer I always check to see if gluten has developed properly by trying to poke to dough and see if it pops up again and thats my method of finding that out. Attaching an image of my latest pizza

Offline BGPizza

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Re: My dough isn't stretchy
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2022, 07:20:45 PM »
Wow. Looks great. Nice and crispy.
I always knead by hand for a minute or two after the kitchen aid mixer. This is because I read somewhere that the gluten needs to organized and kneading by hand acheives this. I'll post a couple of photos of my next batch.
Also for stretching, once you pat it out with the 4 fingers of both hands you want to strech from the very edge of the dough ( which I'm sure you already know). Over stretching will always create holes, just pinch them shut. My last attempt at making the biggest pizza I could. It didn't fit on 12 inch stone so it's a Picasso lol. Needless to say the smoke alarm was going off.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2022, 07:24:33 PM by BGPizza »

Offline kori

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Re: My dough isn't stretchy
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2022, 08:03:55 PM »
BTW for home pizza I suggest ADY (active dry yeast).
I'm curious why you suggest ADY for making pizza at home.
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Offline jagarda

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Re: My dough isn't stretchy
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2022, 04:25:49 AM »
This is the yeast I usually use (or fresh yeast): https://uk.ooni.com/products/caputo-yeast

Ooni website has the Caputo dry yeast listed as an instant dry yeast, but amazon has it as an active dry yeast. Not really sure which one it is?

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Offline HansB

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Re: My dough isn't stretchy
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2022, 07:21:50 AM »
The vast majority here use IDY, instant dry yeast. https://saf-instant.com/en/home-baking/
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Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: My dough isn't stretchy
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2022, 10:09:17 AM »
This is the yeast I usually use (or fresh yeast): https://uk.ooni.com/products/caputo-yeast

Ooni website has the Caputo dry yeast listed as an instant dry yeast, but amazon has it as an active dry yeast. Not really sure which one it is?
Based on usage directions it looks like IDY.

Offline jma6610

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Re: My dough isn't stretchy
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2022, 07:43:23 PM »
I wouldn't waste your time with recipes from the web, lots of misinformation and recipes that just don't work out the way they lead you to believe they will, this is one of those recipes. Y

I'll second that. ...including Vito's recipes (that someone else mentioned). They almost never mention temperatures and flour type. You're going to get different results at different temperatures with flours of different strengths/protein-levels. You'll also get different results if you hand knead versus mix with a spiral and do so for different times and speeds unless you always mix/knead to the full capacity of the gluten development. What I do when I'm either experimenting with times/temperatures, different flours, etc. is to use the "fingertip poke" method to see when I should stop fermenting and put the dough in the fridge at colder temperatures. If you simply poke your finger into dough when you're using higher hydrations, the dough will stick to your finger, however. So I put a small amount of flour in just one place on one ball. When you push your finger into it, the amount of pushback on your finger and how quickly the dent goes away will give an indication how the ball with snap back when you go to open it. The longer it ferments the less snap-back you will get. It takes a bit of trial and error through experience to figure out just what you're looking for and I've found that written descriptions of this aren't as helpful as experience, but once you do it just before opening and then see what occurs, you get the feel for it after a few batches and will know when you reach an adequate level. You might also search to see what Tom Lehmann has mentioned on this site regarding dough relaxers that you might find in your kitchen or grocery store. He's mentioned garlic and onion powder but also mean tenderizer that's made from bromelain (derived from pineapple) or papain (derived from papayas). Also mentioned was L-cysteine.


Offline kori

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Re: My dough isn't stretchy
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2022, 09:05:21 PM »
I'll second that. ...including Vito's recipes
Ya I seem to read of a lot of people attempting his recipes with failure, I've never tried any.
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Offline Timpanogos Slim

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Re: My dough isn't stretchy
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2022, 12:06:56 AM »
I'll second that. ...including Vito's recipes (that someone else mentioned). They almost never mention temperatures and flour type. You're going to get different results at different temperatures with flours of different strengths/protein-levels. You'll also get different results if you hand knead versus mix with a spiral and do so for different times and speeds unless you always mix/knead to the full capacity of the gluten development.

I've seen it stated a few different times here that the "recipe" is insufficient without an understanding of the process, and it's plainly obvious to anyone who's used two different flours that unless you have the exact same ingredients, batch size, and mixing equipment as whoever wrote up the recipe, and the recipe specifies temperatures for water, temp and time for bulk rise, etc, it's not going to turn out the same.

People should resolve themselves to the necessity of experimentation and adjustment.
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Offline BGPizza

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Re: My dough isn't stretchy
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2022, 08:56:19 PM »
I'm curious why you suggest ADY for making pizza at home.
It's because I always do cold fermentation. Honestly if I had a pizza restaurant I would use the same yeast. You can keep the dough in the fridge forever. I have personally made pizza after 72 hours and it was still better than most pizza joints around here. I have used instant yeat before (only once) and it seams way to active for cold fermentation. Maybe instant would be better if you need to make same day pizza or other types of bread. It has its purpose. But ultimately it's a personal choice and experimenting on what you like. So have fun and try them all 😀

Offline BGPizza

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Re: My dough isn't stretchy
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2022, 09:00:38 PM »
As promised.not sure how this time-line will work out.
First pic. After 5 or so minutes in the kitchen aid mixer.
2nd pic. After about 2 minutes of hand kneading.
3rd pic. After about an hour and 45 of rest. Plus lift and fold.
4th pic. Resting for 15 or so more minutes.
5th pic. Portions
6th if I can post it. After 24 hour cold fermentation.
7th windowpane test.
8th pizza.
Pepperoni got a little crispy. My wife wanted to try a thinner cut and bigger circumference Pepperoni.
You can see how the dough becomes shinier. Look like rubber. At the portioning stage it snaps back like a rubber band. I think this is perfect for slow cold fermentation. Let me know what you guys think.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2022, 09:19:48 PM by BGPizza »

Offline Timpanogos Slim

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Re: My dough isn't stretchy
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2022, 09:46:48 PM »
It's because I always do cold fermentation. Honestly if I had a pizza restaurant I would use the same yeast. You can keep the dough in the fridge forever. I have personally made pizza after 72 hours and it was still better than most pizza joints around here. I have used instant yeat before (only once) and it seams way to active for cold fermentation. Maybe instant would be better if you need to make same day pizza or other types of bread. It has its purpose. But ultimately it's a personal choice and experimenting on what you like. So have fun and try them all 😀

I dunno, that could just be down to the number of viable cells at the point of mixing. Or the specific strain of yeast. Active vs. Instant is a matter of how the yeast is preserved, and while I'm sure that maybe there are strains that are better suited to one or the other, I don't think we know for example whether Fleischmann uses different strains for their active dry and instant dry products.
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Offline jma6610

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Re: My dough isn't stretchy
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2022, 11:08:47 PM »
I don't think we know for example whether Fleischmann uses different strains for their active dry and instant dry products.

Actually we do know. IDY, ADY,  or fresh, it's all the same thing in terms of the strain - as you mentioned, the differences are in the way it's preserved and how much inert material is present. These are all saccharomyces cerevisiae. There is supposed to be zero advantage to using ADY, and as I understand it, the only reason it's still being produced is that it's older and some folks are set in their way and want to keep using what they've used in the past. Fresh has much more water in it, so it's supposed to be easier to measure out accurately in smaller quantities for commercial use and consistency purposes, but beyond this, I'm unsure that there is any advantage - perhaps a fresh yeast that's always used within 2-3 days of purchase will have a more consistent active component versus IDY that's stored for a year and used anywhere from 1 day old to 365 days or more old - I'm unsure. ...but given the fact that whatever amount of yeast you put into your dough will start to multiply after only a short amount of lag time and that the multiplication is greatly affected by small differences in temperature, I can't see how even minor differences in the actual number of active yeast cells you start with will matter more than if your room temperature is 20C or 21C or if you mix to 23C or 24C.

Offline BGPizza

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