Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => Chicago Style => Topic started by: loowaters on January 18, 2008, 04:56:28 PM

Title: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on January 18, 2008, 04:56:28 PM
I'm done with this! :chef:

Thanks to Pete for all his hard work in coming up with information and finding videos that were so helpful. 

100% AP Flour
42 Water
24 Corn Oil
1.75 ADY
1.75 Salt
Thickness Factor = .111

The pictures are a 14" pizza.

287g King Arthur AP Flour
119g Water
69g Corn Oil
5g ADY
5g Salt

Begin by dissolving salt in 110-115* water.  Add ADY and stir it in then let bloom for five minutes.  Add half of the flour and begin to mix.  I did the mixing with the dough hook of my Kitchen Aid mixer.  Once it comes together add the oil and half of the remaining flour (3/4 of all flour now in mixer).  Once that comes together, knead on 3 speed for 5 minutes.  Add remaining flour and mix until combined then knead for 3 additional minutes on 3 speed.  If it seems a little scrappy, add water one teaspoon at a time until it comes together.  This will be a pretty stiff dough.

Place in bowl and cover with a tea towel then let rise in warm oven (light on is good enough for me) for two hours with a pan of hot water on the rack beneath to provide some humidity.  Punch down and let rise again for another two hours.  Remove from oven.

Preheat oven to 475*

Portion dough for same day use but try not to over handle.  Pat out to size then place on a dark perforated disk or some kind of dark pan.  Pinch up the edge to create a rim.  Top skin with 6 3/4 oz. sauce, preferred toppings (I used sweet Italian sausage for the pictured pie), and 10 oz. shredded low moisture part skim mozz.  Cook on middle rack for approximately 10 minutes.

I attempted an overnight, fridge rise with IDY last week and didn't care for the results.  I also tried straight from peel to stone with no luck getting it off the peel.  I've done a lot of NY style and have rarely had peel problems but this was just too much for me.  Peter, the fact that you got it off the peel is another strong point for your consideration to Master Magician status.

I'm done tinkering with this recipe, it turned out delicious but what really sent me over the top was when I reheated the leftovers in the oven.  The smell that overcame my kitchen was the same that I remembered as a little boy when my Grandparents would cook a Home Run Inn pizza in their oven.  It almost brought me to tears fondly remembering those days long ago. :'(  :)

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: RSMBob on January 18, 2008, 08:14:09 PM
That looks pretty darn awesome!

You know, I made up a batch of your previous HRI dough last week, and it turned out VERY good...the corn oil definately helps get the HRI crust flavor. However...I made one fatal error...let's just say my mind blanked out when thinking about Baker's Percentages. Oops. Nevertheless, the family and I really enjoyed the pizza.

What did you use for your sauce? I know HRI uses a puree-based sauce (read it somewhere long ago).

Once again, nice job...you even got my favorite topping this time!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on January 18, 2008, 09:12:26 PM
Thanks Bob,

What I did for the sauce was used my hand blender to make puree out of Progresso crushed tomatoes.  I think this is a much better way to make puree than buying it.  I don't do it with whole tomatoes often because they need deseeding but the crushed have most of the seeds removed.  I gotta get some more 6 in 1's.  Sorry, note to self.  Canned puree just never seems really good.  I measured out 11 3/4 oz. by weight of the puree for the two pizzas I was making and added salt, black pepper, and oregano (per the HRI ingredients list).  I have a grinder for my sea salt and my pepper so for that amount of puree I gave the sea salt four grinds, the pepper three grinds and approximately 1 t. of dried oregano. 

These two pies, I also made a 12" pepperoni for my daughter, turned out great!  The 12" got 5 oz. by weight of sauce and 8 oz. of mozz.  I'll be making these many more times.

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: foodblogger on January 31, 2008, 02:36:42 PM
I've got to try this pizza this weekend.  I'm always impressed by your posts and results.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Randy on January 31, 2008, 03:53:37 PM
Okay, now the big question Loo.  Do you prefer your Chicago deep dish or the Home run pizza?

Tough question man we got to know the truth.

Randy
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on January 31, 2008, 04:35:53 PM
Thanks foodblogger.  

How did your Wig and Pen stuffed turn out and did you work out a baker's percent formula for it?


Randy, I'll say that I still prefer both the Gino's clone and Malnati's clone to this. . . but this is a good pie.  :D

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: foodblogger on February 04, 2008, 12:43:32 PM
Thanks foodblogger. 

How did your Wig and Pen stuffed turn out and did you work out a baker's percent formula for it?


Randy, I'll say that I still prefer both the Gino's clone and Malnati's clone to this. . . but this is a good pie.  :D

Loo

Hey,
I haven't really worked on the Wig and Pen lately.  I just ate there a couple months ago and I think I have the recipe down pretty well.  I'm moving back to Iowa in a few months (Des Moines) so I'll only be 1 hour away from it!

I made your Home Run Inn recipe this weekend.  It was AWESOME.  It is especially good cold.  I just love a slice of cold pizza for breakfast.  I guess its a habit I picked up during my college years.  I made a pepperoni and a sausage, onion, green pepper and mushroom.  I tried 1 on the pizza stone directly and one in a perforated pan.  Both my wife and I liked the texture of the perforated pan crust better.  I posted a couple pictures on my blog.  I can't figure out how to do it here.
http://damngoodfood.blogspot.com/2008/02/2-pizzas.html (http://damngoodfood.blogspot.com/2008/02/2-pizzas.html)
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on February 08, 2008, 09:16:21 AM
Your pics looked great.  This does make for great cold leftovers and, I think I mentioned it above, it reheats really well.  I reheated by throwing the slices on a cookie sheet and into a cold oven and firing it up to 400*.  Once it hits temperature I gave it a couple more minutes and it came out just right.  I have an electric oven so this may not be the way to go with a gas oven but with the element underneath the leftovers crisped up on the bottom nicely and were excellent.

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: goosen1 on February 08, 2008, 09:42:18 AM
I was given a toaster oven for a gift a few years ago. It reheats pizza perfect!

Goose
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on February 08, 2008, 09:50:30 AM
I usually use my toaster oven for the small reheats for myself but the last couple times I've had too much pie for the toaster oven to handle...but I'm with ya on toaster oven.

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: DaveH on February 10, 2008, 11:26:33 PM
Made this pizza tonight. Although thin crust isn't my favorite this was very good! Using the dough calculator (the percentages that began this thread) I made a 14" pizza. The dough tasted very similar to a deep dish and was quite good. I would definitely reccomend this dough.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on February 16, 2008, 08:57:12 PM
OK, is it ever really finished?

I'm upping my TF on this to .125 so I have a little more to build up a crust ring.  Also, I'm going to start adding a little water to the sauce to thin it out in hopes of preventing the crust from crisping all the way through.  How much?  I'm not sure yet.

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: foodblogger on February 17, 2008, 10:24:52 AM
Ha!  I knew you would keep tweaking.  I can't count the number of changes I've made to my Gino's clone but I'm sure there are many more to come.  In another five years I'll probably have to re-release a video.

OK, is it ever really finished?

I'm upping my TF on this to .125 so I have a little more to build up a crust ring.  Also, I'm going to start adding a little water to the sauce to thin it out in hopes of preventing the crust from crisping all the way through.  How much?  I'm not sure yet.

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on February 25, 2008, 09:55:18 AM
OK, here's what I did to thin the sauce out.  I made a 12" the other day and measured out 5 1/4 oz. of puree'd Great Value Crushed Tomatoes seasoned with salt and pepper.  I added 1 1/2 T of water to this and it helped. Remember, we're trying to prevent the crust from getting crisp all the way through.  Next time I'm going to add 2 T of water and see if that'll do it.  I think that should be enough because I was right there with 1 1/2 T but a touch more should be right on.  One other note, I also applied the sauce cold in hopes that this will help produce the desired effect.  I sprinkled the oregano on the sauce after covering the skin with the sauce.

I'm also thinking about cooking this on the next rack up in the oven (my top rack).  A quicker browning of the cheese, of course, and maybe not such a thorough baking of the crust will result...this could also be the worst idea I've ever had but what the heck.  I'll let you know how that turns out when I do it.

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: IlliniPizza on April 19, 2008, 07:18:38 PM
This may have already been answered, but did anyone use smoked mozzarella on the HRI pizza.  Their cheese is very distinct with a smoky flavor.  In my mind that is what sets them apart from other pizzas.

Thanks
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on April 20, 2008, 10:53:44 AM
This may have already been answered, but did anyone use smoked mozzarella on the HRI pizza.  Their cheese is very distinct with a smoky flavor.  In my mind that is what sets them apart from other pizzas.

Thanks

Haven't tried it but in Peter's research he found they use a blend of mozzerella cheeses so it's possible that a smoked mozz is one of them.

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: gns67 on April 23, 2008, 04:11:12 PM
Haven't tried it but in Peter's research he found they use a blend of mozzerella cheeses so it's possible that a smoked mozz is one of them.

Loo

Hi Loo,
Is there a posting or any speculation on what this blend may be?

Thanks,
George
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 23, 2008, 05:31:45 PM
George, 

Loo may have some input from having eaten his share of HRI pizzas and may want to respond, but the information about the use of a blend of mozzarella cheeses originally came from the article referenced at the Gayot.com link at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51590.html#msg51590. The use of a blend of three mozzarella cheeses for the HRI frozen pizzas was confirmed by an HRI employee, as discussed at Reply 7. I suppose it's possible that the cheeses HRI uses for the pizzas in their stores are different from what they use on their frozen pizzas, but everything that I found about the pizzas from my research suggested that the company tries to make their frozen pizzas as close as possible to the pizzas they make in their stores. The information provided at the HRI website on their frozen pizzas does not mention smoked mozzarella cheese. Since labelling laws don't require that distinction, there would be no need or purpose in disclosing that they use smoked mozzarella cheese. No doubt Leprino makes several forms of mozzarella cheese, so a possible combination might include low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese, low-moisture whole-milk mozzarella cheese, and smoked mozzarella cheese. Combinations of the part-skim and whole-milk mozzarella cheeses are very common in the pizza industry, so adding smoked mozzarella cheese to that combination would not be a big leap.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: gns67 on April 24, 2008, 04:22:34 AM
George, 

Loo may have some input from having eaten his share of HRI pizzas and may want to respond, but the information about the use of a blend of mozzarella cheeses originally came from the article referenced at the Gayot.com link at Reply 6 at. The use of a blend of three mozzarella cheeses for the HRI frozen pizzas was confirmed by an HRI employee, as discussed at Reply 7. I suppose it's possible that the cheeses HRI uses for the pizzas in their stores are different from what they use on their frozen pizzas, but everything that I found about the pizzas from my research suggested that the company tries to make their frozen pizzas as close as possible to the pizzas they make in their stores. The information provided at the HRI website on their frozen pizzas does not mention smoked mozzarella cheese. Since labelling laws don't require that distinction, there would be no need or purpose in disclosing that they use smoked mozzarella cheese. No doubt Leprino makes several forms of mozzarella cheese, so a possible combination might include low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese, low-moisture whole-milk mozzarella cheese, and smoked mozzarella cheese. Combinations of the part-skim and whole-milk mozzarella cheeses are very common in the pizza industry, so adding smoked mozzarella cheese to that combination would not be a big leap.

Peter

Wow, thanks Peter.  That's a lot to take in.  This forum is amazing.  You know, I grew up in the Chicagoland area and ate a ton of pizza.  But had I known just how big the whole thing was I would have paid a lot more attention.  
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on April 24, 2008, 07:02:50 AM
Welcome to the forum, George.  You'll see that Peter is a superstar around here on multiple fronts and his help in putting together this clone was nothing short of stellar.  And we should also acknowledge his excellent new avatar!  ;D

I haven't tried to come up with a mix of mozzarella cheeses for this yet as I usually have only one type of mozz on hand at a time.  One way to try to cheat this mix and get that smokey flavor would be to try to blend in some provalone and see how that works as far as replicating HRI's blend.  Tinkering and making it your own is what makes this so great. 

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: gns67 on May 02, 2008, 06:16:24 AM
Welcome to the forum, George.  You'll see that Peter is a superstar around here on multiple fronts and his help in putting together this clone was nothing short of stellar.  And we should also acknowledge his excellent new avatar!  ;D

I haven't tried to come up with a mix of mozzarella cheeses for this yet as I usually have only one type of mozz on hand at a time.  One way to try to cheat this mix and get that smokey flavor would be to try to blend in some provalone and see how that works as far as replicating HRI's blend.  Tinkering and making it your own is what makes this so great. 

Loo

Thanks Loo, I'm going to give this a try this weekend. 

As anyone else noticed that Reggio's frozen pizza is almost identical to HRI?
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on May 02, 2008, 06:54:55 AM
As anyone else noticed that Reggio's frozen pizza is almost identical to HRI?

Yes, quite similar.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: gns67 on May 03, 2008, 02:35:12 AM
100% AP Flour
42 Water
24 Corn Oil
1.75 ADY
1.75 Salt
Thickness Factor = .111

The pictures are a 14" pizza.

Could somebody help me convert this based upon 2 1/2 cups of flour?  I'm still new at this and not used to working with percentages or weights.  Any help would be much appreciated!  Thanks.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on May 03, 2008, 07:25:45 AM
George,

I think there may be an easier and better way to proceed than starting with an amount of flour. Since we know the baker's percents and the thickness factor, all we need to know is how many pizzas and what size you want them to be. Then, we can use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to do all the number crunching for us. For example, if you want to make one 14" pizza, using the thickness factor 0.111 and the recited baker's percents in the tool yields the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (42%):
ADY (1.75%):
Salt (1.75%):
Corn Oil (24%):
Total (169.5%):
285.79 g  |  10.08 oz | 0.63 lbs
120.03 g  |  4.23 oz | 0.26 lbs
5 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
5 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.9 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
68.59 g | 2.42 oz | 0.15 lbs | 5.08 tbsp | 0.32 cups
484.42 g | 17.09 oz | 1.07 lbs | TF = 0.111

To convert the weights of flour and water to volumes measurements, you can use member November's Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/. If you use the pull-down menu to find the Gold Medal all-purpose flour, which we will use here as a proxy for whatever brand of all-purpose flour you will be using, and if you enter 10.08 oz. in the "Total" box and then click on the background, you will see that 10.08 oz. of flour converts to 2 cups + 1/4 c. + 1 T. + a bit less than 1/2 t. The flour has to be measured out in a specific way. Specifically, you should first stir the flour in the container to loosen it, and then lift the flour from the container using a tablespoon or scoop into the measuring cups just to the point of overflowing. You should then level off the tops of the measuring cups. You shouldn't shake or tamp the measuring cups on a surface.  

To convert the water from weight to volume, you should use the pull-down menu to find the water (Fluid, Water) and enter 4.23 oz. in the Total box. You will see that the 4.23 oz. of water converts to 1/2 c. + 0.33 t. To measure out the 1/2-cup amount, you should fill your measuring cup with water until the lower meniscus is at the 1/2-c. marking. This should be done at eye level on a flat surface.

It is possible to start with 2 1/2 cups of flour as you requested, but you would have to first convert that amount of flour to a weight (November's tool can do this also), and then determine the weights of all of the other ingredients, and add them up. The total can then be used in the expanded dough calculating tool to determine the amounts, by volumes, of each of the ingredients other than water. You would have to use November's tool to convert the water to a volume measurement. I can walk you through the exercise in greater detail if you'd like, but I think the more accurate way to go is to use the method described above.

I think you can see from the above analysis why many of us prefer to work in weights rather than volumes.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: gns67 on May 04, 2008, 01:35:01 AM
Thank you very much Peter for all of your help and attention to detail!  It makes it much easier for people like me to learn.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on May 04, 2008, 06:33:20 AM
George,

Actually, you weren't all that far off with your 2 1/2 cups of flour. For example, if you used 2 1/2 cups of General Mills all-purpose flour and measured it out textbook style using both a 1-cup measuring cup and a 1/2-cup measuring cup, the final dough formulation would look like this:

Flour (100%):
Water (42%):
ADY (1.75%):
Salt (1.75%):
Corn Oil (24%):
Total (169.5%):
312.31 g  |  11.02 oz | 0.69 lbs
131.17 g  |  4.63 oz | 0.29 lbs
5.47 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.45 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
5.47 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.98 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
74.95 g | 2.64 oz | 0.17 lbs | 5.55 tbsp | 0.35 cups
529.36 g | 18.67 oz | 1.17 lbs | TF = N/A

As you will note, the difference in total dough weight is a little over 1 1/2 ounces (18.67 ounces minus 17.09 ounces). That means that if you used the full 18.67 ounces of dough to make a 14" pizza, the crust would be a little thicker than what Loo intended with his dough formulation. To retain the same crust characteristics, which is what you really want to do, you would just make the pizza a bit bigger. In this case, the pizza would be a bit over 14.5". That's not a big difference, but to be a purist that is what you would use.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: LPcreation on May 20, 2008, 11:29:59 AM
I tried your pizza loowaters.  It came out pretty well but I had a problem getting any color in the crust.  I didn't have any sausage either so I used pepperoni.

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on May 20, 2008, 11:52:08 AM
I'm not the expert on things like this but I'm pretty sure a longer ferment like a one or two day fridge rise to fully develop the sugars that create that browning could be useful for you.  I haven't had problems with the color but I also haven't had that big of a crust ring on my pie.  I pinch up the sides a bit and top right to that rim.

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on May 20, 2008, 12:03:50 PM
LPcreation,

Despite his thoughtful disclaimer, Loo is the expert on the HRI pizza and its finished characteristics. However, I think it may help him and others to know exactly how you made the pizza. As Loo noted, dough made using all-purpose flour and with only a few hours of fermentation will often result in a finished crust with poor coloration because it takes time for the biochemical activity to extract the natural sugars from the flour (damaged starch) to then be available as residual sugar at the time of baking to produce good crust coloration. Instead, you have to rely more on the improved heat transfer characteristics of the large amount of oil in the dough and also how you bake the pizza (e.g., directly on a preheated stone, using a pan or disk or screen of the proper type, etc.) and where the pizza is positioned in the oven for baking. The bake time and temperature will also be critical factors in achieving good crust coloration. Providing this level of detail may offer clues as to what happened in your case. If you changed any of the ingredients or amounts or if you deviated from Loo's instructions, it will, of course, be necessary to have that information in order to conduct a proper diagnosis.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: LPcreation on May 20, 2008, 12:54:34 PM
Quote from: Loowaters
Begin by dissolving salt in 110-115* water.  Add ADY and stir it in then let bloom for five minutes.  Add half of the flour and begin to mix.  I did the mixing with the dough hook of my Kitchen Aid mixer.  Once it comes together add the oil and half of the remaining flour (3/4 of all flour now in mixer).  Once that comes together, knead on 3 speed for 5 minutes.  Add remaining flour and mix until combined then knead for 3 additional minutes on 3 speed.  If it seems a little scrappy, add water one teaspoon at a time until it comes together.  This will be a pretty stiff dough.

I follow his recipe/bake times/temps exactly except for the following....

1 - I forgot to add the salt to the water to bloom the ADY.

2 - I didn't follow his flour timing, meaning after the ADY bloomed, I threw everything in the KA and mixed it.

I plan on making it again so I'll be more aware of the timing of when to add ingredients.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on May 20, 2008, 01:16:44 PM
LPcreation,

I doubt that the changes you made were responsible for the lack of crust coloration. What kind of disk did you use?

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: LPcreation on May 20, 2008, 01:25:56 PM
LPcreation,

I doubt that the changes you made were responsible for the lack of crust coloration. What kind of disk did you use?

Peter

I put it right on the stone.  I didn't think that would make a difference because of the heat from the stone.  Maybe I thought wrong?
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on May 20, 2008, 02:02:25 PM
LPcreation,

When I made my initial HRI clone, I used a pizza stone, which is equivalent to the deck oven method still used by HRI at its original location (the other locations have gone to disks and conveyor ovens). However, in my case, I used a 24-hour cold fermentation, which no doubt allowed for more sugar extraction. I described my efforts at the original HRI thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51985.html#msg51985 (see Replies 26-29). In my effort, I was trying to replicate the methods used at the original HRI location.

If, in your case, the bottom browned before the top crust did, causing you concern that the pizza would burn, then that suggests a couple of possible solutions: using either a longer bake at lower oven temperature or else moving the pizza off of the stone to a higher oven rack position to get more top heat to help brown the top crust. I do the latter all the time in my oven, even if the instructions I am following do not call for doing so. Going to a longer fermentation should also be a solution. However, because of the high amount of yeast in the dough, it may be better to cold ferment the dough rather than ferment it at room temperature. Otherwise, you may find that the dough blows, or overferments, before the sugar levels in the dough have meaningfully increased. Of course, one way to mitigate that effect would be to just use less yeast. However, when I did my research on the HRI pizza, achieving a "yeasty" flavor in the crust was something that was considered an important part of the authentic HRI pizza experience.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: LPcreation on May 20, 2008, 03:03:46 PM
Thanks Peter, I'll try your suggestions.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on May 20, 2008, 03:08:19 PM
Thanks Peter, I'll try your suggestions.

LPcreation,

I hope you will report back with your results.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: zitomj on November 20, 2008, 05:37:00 PM
I used to have a pizza place in the Chicago area and I bought my cheese from the same supplier as HRI. Their salesman told me it was equal parts of red blue and green cheese which I also bought and never paid attention to what it was other then mozzarella but I think it might have been skim, 2% and whole milk mozzarella. This is the company that supplied them back then

Battaglia Distributing
2500 S Ashland Ave
Chicago, IL , 60608-5321 
Phone: 312-738-1111
FAX: 312-738-4030
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on November 20, 2008, 08:13:13 PM
I used to have a pizza place in the Chicago area and I bought my cheese from the same supplier as HRI. Their salesman told me it was equal parts of red blue and green cheese which I also bought and never paid attention to what it was other then mozzarella but I think it might have been skim, 2% and whole milk mozzarella. This is the company that supplied them back then

Battaglia Distributing
2500 S Ashland Ave
Chicago, IL , 60608-5321 
Phone: 312-738-1111
FAX: 312-738-4030

This is a good piece of info.  I know a guy (and play golf with him, too) that owns a pizza place in Cedar Rapids that uses Battaglia as his supplier.  I'll be seeing him in a couple weeks again and I'll ask about Battaglia's cheese options.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: BTB on November 29, 2008, 08:49:29 AM
I thought I would give a try at making an HRI pizza along the lines that Loo indicated in the start of this thread.  The results were both good and bad.  The good was that the pizza tasted great.  The bad was that it lacked a lot of the characteristics of an HRI pizza that I previously knew.  I thought I followed the instructions well, but something just didn't come out right, so I thought I'd describe what I did here and see if I can learn more about doing this better.
 
Since I got use to using bakers percentages, I used those in Peter's Reply #23 above for a 14" pizza, which were as follows:
 
Flour (100%):  285.79 g  |  10.08 oz | 0.63 lbs
Water (42%):  120.03 g  |  4.23 oz | 0.26 lbs
ADY (1.75%):  5 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):  5 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.9 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
Corn Oil (24%):  68.59 g | 2.42 oz | 0.15 lbs | 5.08 tbsp | 0.32 cups
Total (169.5%): 484.42 g | 17.09 oz | 1.07 lbs | TF = 0.111
 
I began by dissolving salt in water warmed to 110 degrees, then added the ADY and let it bloom for 5-8 minutes, then added half the flour (sifted) and mixed with a wooden spoon and hand.  After mixing for a number of minutes, I added the oil and about half of the remaining flour and kneaded some more for a few minutes.  Then added the remaining flour and kneaded yet some more.  The dough was very scrappy and crumbly., so much so that I had to add an additional teaspoon of water . . . and another . . . and another . . . probably about 6 or 7 teaspoons more in total.  It was a pretty stiff dough and except for the amount of oil, it seemed similar to cracker crust dough. 
 
I placed the formed dough ball in a bowl, covered with a kitchen towel and put it in a warm oven (about 80 degrees) for a couple of hours.  I could then see some action of the yeast in little bursting buds on the exterior of the dough ball, but the ball didn't seem to be expanding much.  Since I wasn't going to use the dough until the following evening, I put it into a ziplock bag and into the refrigerator (as is my usual practice on most kinds of pizzas).  In the morning after reading one of the threads on cracker crust methods, some had suggested that cracker crust dough balls don't do well cooling in the refrigerator, so I took the ziplocked dough ball out of the refrigerator and left it on the counter for about 10 hours, even tho this technically wasn't a cracker crust.
 
Later that evening, I put the dough ball, which hardly rose at all, in a covered bowl and back in a warm oven for a short while in preparation for rolling out the dough (anticpating that this was going to be hard to roll out).  As was suggested in another thread, warm dough, especially when stiff, is easier to roll out when warm.  But even when a little warm, this dough was still pretty difficult to roll out.  I rolled out the dough as best I could, then rolled up the skin onto my rolling pin, then rolled it off onto my slightly oiled 14" dark, anodized nonperforated cutter pan.  The dough was very crumbly and scrappy and I had to patch up the skin a lot (as you can see from the picture below).
 
I started to attempt to create a small rim on the skin (like exists on HRI pizzas), but it was a little difficult, so I just left it as is.  I debated whether to par bake the skin, but did not.  I simply topped the skin with around 8 to 10 oz. of non-drained 6 in 1 sauce (with a mix of Penzeys pizza spices, minced garlic, white pepper, sea salt, ginger, and a dash of honey).  Then I put on some raw sweet Italian sausage that I got from my favorite Italian sausage shop (99% of all Chicago pizzerias put their sausage on their pizzas raw without pre-cooking).  I then added about 2 oz. of cut-up provolone cheese and about 6 oz. of shredded low moisture part skim mozzarella, and about 2 or 3 oz. of some good fresh mozzarella that I had left in the refrigerator.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: BTB on November 29, 2008, 08:51:16 AM
I then preheated the oven to 450 degrees -- a little less than Loo's suggestion -- to cook a little longer, which helps with cooking the sausage better.  I know N.Y. and other style pizzas cook at a much, much higher temperature, but not Chicago thin or pan pizzas normally.  I cooked this pizza on the second to the bottom rack for about 18 to 19 minutes, turning 180 degrees halfway through that time.
 
The pizza, which turned out very good and tasty, had a much thinner crust than I anticipated.  But it was still a pretty crispy and delicious pizza.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: BTB on November 29, 2008, 08:53:15 AM
I wondered afterwards why the dough ball didn't expand or rise very much.  I couldn't punch it down like Loo suggested because it never expanded to the point where I could do that.  My ADY was good with the expiration date about 7 or 8 months hence and I used another one of packets in the same strip a couple of weeks earlier and the yeast worked well.  In reading several other postings, I noticed Tom Lehmann's pizzamaking advice in one of them " . .  don't mix the yeast with the salt  . . . This is bad for the yeast as it will have an inhibiting affect on the yeast in the concentrated solution."  Oh well, I had mixed the yeast in the water with the dissolved salt, so I will probably refrain from doing that the next time I try this formulation.  Also I think I will increase the hydration as well as the TF (Thickness Factor) to .125 or more (I noticed afterwards Loos thought to do so).  While I don't think so, I do wonder if sifting the flour had any affect.

The evening after I made this pizza, my adult son came over and saw the leftover pizza (pictured below) in a bag in the refrigerator and he then ate a piece.  He commented that he thought it had a hint of HRI flavor in it and loved the taste.  He liked it so much that he took the remaining pizza home with him to snack on later.  Now there's nothing left for me to snack on.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: BTB on November 29, 2008, 09:27:39 AM
Though we don't live in the area anymore, this past summer my wife and I visited for the first time in years the sacred halls of the original Home Run Inn Pizzeria in Chicago.  The pizza was as great as ever (well almost) and it's no wonder that they are consistently named one of the best pizzas in Chicagoland year after year.  Here is a picture of the HRI pizza that we partially consumed on our visit there.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on November 29, 2008, 10:05:45 PM
The finished pie looks really good! 

That dough rise problem, as you've already identified, has to come from blooming the yeast in the salt water.  That looks really dry, too.  Your thought of adding to the hydration should help.  I bet that mix of mozzarella tasted good.  I've thinned the sauce with some water and I let it sit for a minute before topping and baking to get a little gummier texture just under the toppings but still very crispy on the bottom.

You're a stud, BTB, you'll get it.

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: zitomj on December 30, 2008, 05:11:52 PM
HRI and ADY

 I was in Chicago a couple of months ago and ordered a HRI sausage pizza and your crust is right on...  I also think the 6:1 sauce if right there as well but I don't think they use a puree except on the frozen pizzas. I remember small pieces of tomatoes on my pizza at HRI. I thing they used crushed tomatoes with the spices as you recommended. I asked my wife and she also remembers the small pieces of tomato.

HRI Sausage
It tastes a little heavy on one spice from my visit to HRI a couple of months ago so I tried extra fennel seed but that wasn't right so I think now I my thinking is that extra oregano is added to a mild Italian sausage.

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: bill1971 on January 07, 2009, 04:06:43 PM
Your pics looked great.  This does make for great cold leftovers and, I think I mentioned it above, it reheats really well.  I reheated by throwing the slices on a cookie sheet and into a cold oven and firing it up to 400*.  Once it hits temperature I gave it a couple more minutes and it came out just right.  I have an electric oven so this may not be the way to go with a gas oven but with the element underneath the leftovers crisped up on the bottom nicely and were excellent.

Loo

Hi, Loo - Just a newbie here enjoying your posts very much. Concerning reheating pizza, I am assuming that I can use a (good) half-sheet aluminum pan. Do you think that a silicone mat would be effective? Or detrimental? Thanks.

- Bill
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on January 08, 2009, 05:17:39 AM
Hi, Loo - Just a newbie here enjoying your posts very much. Concerning reheating pizza, I am assuming that I can use a (good) half-sheet aluminum pan. Do you think that a silicone mat would be effective? Or detrimental? Thanks.

- Bill

I've never used my silicone mat when reheating leftovers but I can't believe it would be bad, cookies still get crisp when cooked on it.  Try it out and let us know how that works.  If it's not great you could always crisp up the bottom in a pan on the stove afterward.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: JConk007 on January 08, 2009, 08:29:47 AM
Bill,
Don't know if you saw the post somewhere but for a thin crust a Teflon pan on stove top works great.
By the way Loo and BTB  were a large inspiration and resource for me on the deep dish with semolina which turned out great.
I plan to try this HR Inn next for sure. It just jumped in front of the Chicago thin crust on the to do list  :) hopefully this weekend At least they are from the same town. Whats the major difference between the 2 being from NJ and never having the pleasure of trying either. Corn oil? Flakiness?
Thanks again guys!!
John
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on January 08, 2009, 10:31:40 AM
I plan to try this HR Inn next for sure. It just jumped in front of the Chicago thin crust on the to do list  :) hopefully this weekend At least they are from the same town. Whats the major difference between the 2 being from NJ and never having the pleasure of trying either. Corn oil? Flakiness?
Thanks again guys!!
John

The Home Run Inn is very similar with it's high oil content to the deep dish dough, it's just assembled and cooked in a traditional thin crust manner.  The Chicago thin, can be any number of different things;  some are very crackery others a little thicker (not much) and chewier but they're all topped quite close to the edge with toppings under the cheese.   Oh, and slice it up in square, party (or family, whichever you prefer to call it) cut style.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: JConk007 on January 10, 2009, 07:26:36 PM
Loo
Thanks for the info
I could not decide between you and BTB so to have no hard feeling I did both ;D
your HRI Final
and The BTB thin crust with all the oil and goodies iwas missing only 1 ...
I used ADY and have both balls in the fridge.
I never had a HRI but it looked so good i am trying it :chef:
I must say this HRI final is a lot easier than all those oils and ingredients BTB I hope I can taste it all
Will work out sauce tomo
Thanks Guys!!
JOhn
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: JConk007 on January 11, 2009, 10:41:32 AM
Loo,BTB, Pete
Hope you are on-line today pre dinner, Could you all please advise the the few questions with regard to the HRI final formulation on page 1 of this thread.
The sauce for this HRI is more a puree than chunk right? I will use the immersion blender and ground 6 in 1 s with some goodies added.
Also I see no mention of par baking or docking any where on this thread?
I would assume dock it right?

Toppings go underneath cheese correct?

I only have a 10" cutter black cutter pan, and 2 - 9 inch X 1 1/2 Deep dish black buster.
I also have a 14" 2 inch high lighter gauge aluminum Pan not black but not silver some kinda none stick. That I used to par bake the DKM cracker crust I did. here they are below
Can I try a screen on this? Should I finish on brick or only if required?

I used the exact measurements on This HRI
As mentioned I have this and the Chicago thin by BTB  that final dough weighed out at 441g out with not the
400.79G per BTB. I am a little shakey on this one. I Dock and Parbake here but dont see your toppings count Guess I'll feel it out depending on the pans I use.
Quantity of cheese and sauce for the thin with semolina. Loo has  6 3/4 oz sauce and 10 oz cheese for the 14"right?
Based on your thickness factor .08 and .111 Is the thin crust meant to be thinner than the HRI ?
Thank you !!
John
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on January 11, 2009, 11:23:34 AM
John,

Loo and BTB are the experts on the Home Run Inn style pizza but I believe the answers to most of your questions are found in the opening post and in Reply 2 in this thread. As I interpret Loo's instructions, the sauce goes down first, followed by the toppings, and then the cheese. Also, if docking were an integral part of making the crust, I believe that Loo would have mentioned it. Since he didn't, I would not dock the skin.

It sounds like the most useful pan you have for the HRI clone pizza is the 10" cutter pan. Based on the information provided by Loo in the opening post, the amount of dough you would need for that size pan is 3.14159 x 5 x 5 x 0.111 = 8.72 ounces. So, if you made the full amount of dough according to Loo's dough formulation, which I calculate to be 17.10 ounces, you should be able to make two pizzas slightly less than 10" in diameter. You might be able to use the other pans, in which case you will have to calculate how much dough to use for those pans, using the simple math expression given in the last sentence but using the corresponding radii of the other pans. I suspect that it is possible to use a screen, either alone or in conjunction with a preheated pizza stone, but you may have to dress the pizza quickly if you use a screen because the combination of 42% hydration and 24% corn oil may translate into a dough that is quite wet and likely to stick to the screen. I believe that it is because of the wetness of the HRI clone dough that Loo used a disk or pan instead of a peel and pizza stone.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: JConk007 on January 11, 2009, 11:35:29 AM
Thank you Peter.
The calculations are really what I needed!
Since I know I have that dough right I will use the 10" Cutter and one of the 9 inck black buster and report back
I will use the 14 " for the Chicago thin that calls for a par bake like I did with the cracker.
The screen thing mays good sense as it is very oily.

As I mentioned I have a really nice thick Turkey Chili going. This may work  ??? Chili Pie. I'll post picif I go for it. Kinda like  your beakfast pie. I will use the last 9" deep dish and the left over crust chicago style the dough up the side dump it in cheddar on top and see what I get. How bad can it be? A lot of people serve it in a bread bowl right?
John
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: BTB on January 11, 2009, 03:00:31 PM
It's pizza day in your house, eh John?  I'm watching the football games and the Giants are struggling against the Eagles.  Good time to make pizza.  The sauces for most any Chicago thin and the HRI are usually a thinner sauce and not chunky.  But I often use the 6 in 1 undrained right out of the can with added spices and flavorings.  Using the immersion blender would probably do a nice job.  The HRI does not call for a par baking nor docking but with the thin crusts that I've been doing recently (with semolina) I've been doing both.  Which recipe besides the HRI are you doing?  Looking forward to seeing your results.                                      --BTB
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: JConk007 on January 11, 2009, 03:07:16 PM
Yes BTB
Wireless is great on the couch. I am doing the 1st post here on this Final thread.
Yes Giants are up 11-10 right now but eagles on the move this is Giant country so hoping for the best
Pizza and chili ,comfort food win loose or draw ;)
Thanks again
John
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on January 11, 2009, 08:04:03 PM
Sorry, John, I'm the last to reply to your questions.  BTB was right about the smooth sauce, a puree job with an immersion blender is all I use for that.  Docking isn't necessary.  The high oil content doesn't allow much oven spring to occur.  Toppings go under the cheese on Chicago style thin pies, however, HRI has one exception - pepperoni, that goes on top.  Build up a nice rim and top it right out to that rim.  I cook mine on a black perforated disk.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: JConk007 on January 12, 2009, 09:31:53 PM
LOO Loo what can I say another wonderful recipe. Loved it! again! It was a real HOME RUN!
Very oily dough but I had no problems working with it. I made 2 types and only 1 mess  :) so I used ADY and put it right in fridge and I did an overnight rise 20 hrs. then about 4 hrs room temp. actually cheated a bit with warm 90 degree oven to shoot for 1/2 time pizza.
I don't have a 14" cutter pan but it is on order, so I rolled the warm dough out to about 16" placed the 14" deep dish on top upside down and cut with the pizza cutter around the pan about 3/4" outside the pan.  Used this same procedure for the DKM Cracker crust. see pic #1 a pretty good circle, Using the roller I placed it in the pan and par baked just enough to see some movement. only 2-3 min. I took it out applied the sauce which was 6 in 1 with basil, oregano, Italian spices, touch of evoo pepper, salt, crushed red pepper and a good shot of the immersion blender.
I placed the topping close to the edge as recommended. I used about 6 3/4 oz sauce topped with what I thought was a lot of very very lightly cooked sweet Italian Sausage, but the pictures I posted here told me it was just right. Then a 50/50 mixture of Block Whole milk Sorrento mozzarella, and Biazzo Part Skim Mozzarella. I had found a new grater in the back of the cabinet that made a larger piece/shred (also see prepared pic) which I really liked. I also had 2 nice slices of Provolone kicking around so I just used my kitchen scissor and cut the up at the same thickness as the shred and mixed them in. A little shake of oregano right on top ( I saw this comment somewhere here)
Baked at 450 on middle rack for around 10 min.
Nice flavor on these corn oil crusts I love the texture and taste. Flashbacks of the Deep Dish from a few weeks ago.
I know you cant taste it but it sure looks like I got close to what you presented here in this HRI Post
Can I mail order this one to see how did?
Thanks again
John C
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: JConk007 on January 12, 2009, 09:46:58 PM
Touch of cornmeal on bottom per BTB. Cooked nice with a golden brown crust and sliced family style :pizza: I really like the biscuit texture of these doughs
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Mad_Ernie on January 13, 2009, 09:59:57 AM
Nicely done, John, and some good pics.  :) :pizza:

I am not surprised you mentioned some flashbacks to the deep dish pizza as Home Run Inn and some other establishments in Chicago use a very similar dough in terms of ingredients.  Mainly they just handle it differently for a somewhat different final product.

Love the experiments.  I am itching to try a Chicago deep dish recipe soon, maybe Loo's or BTB's.  This all has me homesick  :'(
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: BTB on January 13, 2009, 10:13:13 AM
Excellent job, John.  Great pictures, too.  You are getting to be a real pro at this.  I like the way you cut the pizza in traditional Chicago thin crust fashion, too.  I don't remember them doing that when I was last in New Jersey.  Yes, you're making me hanker for making another pizza in the next few days.     --BTB
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: JConk007 on January 13, 2009, 10:15:50 AM
Thanks all,
Monkey See, Monkey Doo ;)
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on January 13, 2009, 11:48:10 AM
That looks like it came out really nice, John.  Your efforts here have been noticed and we'd like you to move to the head of the class!  :chef:
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: JConk007 on January 13, 2009, 12:33:16 PM
Loo,
Thanks but Only if that seat in front includes a mail order Malnatis so I can sample the real deal  ;D
If not I will hang back and try a few more Any other suggestions from your recipe book?
I do volunteer to keep on trying.
John
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: BTB on January 13, 2009, 01:10:46 PM
Baked at 450 on middle rack for around 10 min. 

Do I understand you correctly . . . you par baked the crust, afterwards dressed it with all the toppings and then put it straight onto the oven rack in the middle of the oven?  Not back into the pan?  That's what seems to appear from your one picture.   ??? --BTB
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: JConk007 on January 13, 2009, 01:23:24 PM
No just  par bake for only 2 min place toppings see pic. #03653 dreesed in the pan, then back in oven never out of the pan I may have placed pan on the brick at some point (I had a lot going on,plus the giants game, plus the wine) removed from pan only to cut What you are seeing is the finished pizza on the cooling rack (for cookies) I use to prevent the moisture from softening the crust
Jc
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: BTB on January 13, 2009, 01:46:13 PM
Ok, gotcha.  Still a beautiful looking pizza.    :D
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on January 13, 2009, 01:50:46 PM
John,

Since Loo did not talk about pre-baking the crust, was there a reason why you did so?

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: JConk007 on January 13, 2009, 02:13:43 PM
Peter,
I think just because it was information overload.The other pizza I will post tonight did call for par bake and the cracker called for par bake and someone at some time mentioned " make sure you par bake" so I think it must have stuck in my head? Only 2  min but and dough was still quite raw I understand your question why didn't I follow the recipe? I am a newbie and guess I just did not trust the crispness of the crust if I did not par bake? Next time I will try no par to build some confidence in my pizza making ability and the wonderful resources available from the members here.
John
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: bennychuck on February 03, 2009, 03:37:35 PM
Hello, I'm new to this forum, but an avid pizza aficionado lately.  This may seem like a silly question, but there's part of this recipe that's confusing to me.  There was a little talk about yeast damage per BTB's posts earlier in this thread.  I always thought that yeast needed sugar present in order to "bloom," and most recipes I see call for adding some sugar in the beginning of the process to proof the yeast.  Are you guys adding a tough of sugar to the dissolved water/salt mixture in order to proof the yeast, or is the yeast just meant to feed on the natural sugars in the rest of the ingredients? 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on February 03, 2009, 08:20:52 PM
is the yeast just meant to feed on the natural sugars in the rest of the ingredients? 

DING! DING!! DING!!!  You got it.  Some sugar is used in a lot of recipes but isn't present in this one.

Welcome to the board.

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on February 03, 2009, 11:10:42 PM
Hello, I'm new to this forum, but an avid pizza aficionado lately.  This may seem like a silly question, but there's part of this recipe that's confusing to me.  There was a little talk about yeast damage per BTB's posts earlier in this thread.  I always thought that yeast needed sugar present in order to "bloom," and most recipes I see call for adding some sugar in the beginning of the process to proof the yeast.  Are you guys adding a tough of sugar to the dissolved water/salt mixture in order to proof the yeast, or is the yeast just meant to feed on the natural sugars in the rest of the ingredients? 

bennychuck,

Sometimes yeast producers will tell you to add a bit of sugar to the water in which ADY is rehydrated to give the yeast a head start. However, that isn't an absolute necessity. As sugar is released from the starch by the action of enzymes, there will be plenty of sugar to feed the yeast during the fermentation period. As for rehydrating the ADY in water along with salt, my practice is to rehydrate the ADY in water without the salt, even if the salt was first dissolved in the water. Modern yeast species are quite hardy and can better tolerate salt than the older forms of yeasts but I don't take the chance that having the ADY in salted water for about 10 minutes will impair the performance of the yeast.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: bennychuck on February 04, 2009, 04:55:49 PM
Thanks for the quick replies.  I think I'm going to give this a shot this weekend.  I grew up in the South Bend, IN area, and before I moved west in '04, I used to be able to buy refrigerated (not frozen) HRI take and bake pizzas at the supermarket.  I've since found the frozen ones out this way, but they just aren't quite the same.  With any luck I'll be reproducing one of my favorite crusts in just a couple short days. 

There was another pizza joint in South Bend that I used to frequent quite often called Barnaby's.  It's my understanding that there's also locations around the Chicago area, but also that each location seems to have a slightly different recipe.  The South Bend location(s) are pretty popular amongst Notre Dame fans.  Anyone else familiar with this crust?  Another one of my favorite thin varieties. 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: bennychuck on February 09, 2009, 01:27:56 PM
Ok, so I tried this one out yesterday.  I followed the recipe exactly, except, I tried out a thickness factor of .12.  I used a 14" dark round pizza pan.  If I do this again, and I might even do it again today, I would probably par bake this crust for a couple minutes, unless I were using a perforated disk, as was discussed earlier in this thread.  It was still quite tasty though, and we ate the crap out of it.  Anyway, here's some pics:
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: nikelbee on February 11, 2009, 10:05:28 AM
Hi everyone

Thank you for the recipes and tips. All your fotos look fantastic. Certainly inspired me to try my own version of HRI. I've made the dough and after the first two hours was pleased to see it had risen. However, it doesn't appear stiff, dry or bitty at all, as the recipes mentions. It is quite the opposite, and while not runny, it certainly is very soft - think play-do consistency. I've put it back in the warm oven for two more hours, but does anyone have any suggestions on how to improve my dough? I tried the recipe listed on Chowhound, which seems to be the same one on here but with measurements rather than formulas.

That is: 3 cups of flour, 1 of water, 2/3 of corn oil and 1 teaspoon of salt and yeast. I'm a bit inexperienced at making pizzas, but any help would be appreciated.


Thanks! :D

A hopeful newbie
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on February 11, 2009, 10:47:14 AM
...but does anyone have any suggestions on how to improve my dough? I tried the recipe listed on Chowhound, which seems to be the same one on here but with measurements rather than formulas.

That is: 3 cups of flour, 1 of water, 2/3 of corn oil and 1 teaspoon of salt and yeast. I'm a bit inexperienced at making pizzas, but any help would be appreciated.

Welcome to the board. 

Volume measurement are tough to gauge because we don't know how much flour is in those three cups but if it's less than one pound (which I'm guessing it is) your hyrdration is getting up over 50%, and possibly approaching 60%, which will make for a wet dough with all that oil in it as well.  Add some flour until it seems more workable this time and next time back off some of the water.  Get a scale and you'll be set. :chef:
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: bennychuck on April 18, 2009, 01:49:45 PM
has anyone tried making this recipe with wheat flour?  that's just what's listed on the hri frozen boxes.  this is an awesome recipe, and i make it all the time, but it does seem like it's missing something in comparison to the actual hri product, and i had noticed the discrepancy in the ingredients.  i've been having some troubles getting this crust to crisp up the way i like it, but i think putting the pan in contact with a pizza stone, or maybe even doing it on parchment paper right on the rack would take care of that.  any thoughts?  tried par-baking the last time for 2-3 minutes, but got similar results to previous attempts. 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2009, 02:05:16 PM
has anyone tried making this recipe with wheat flour?  that's just what's listed on the hri frozen boxes. 

bennychuck,

The term "wheat flour" is a broad term used to cover just about any flour made from wheat grain. It's a catch-all term used in ingredients lists, in part to conceal the actual form of flour.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: bennychuck on April 18, 2009, 03:19:19 PM
bennychuck,

The term "wheat flour" is a broad term used to cover just about any flour made from wheat grain. It's a catch-all term used in ingredients lists, in part to conceal the actual form of flour.

Peter

ok, more specifically, whole wheat flour is what i meant here.  not necessarily for all of the flour content, but at least some of it. 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2009, 04:16:12 PM
bennychuck,

I researched the Home Run Inn pizza matter with loowaters some time ago, and in the course of the research I spoke with a fellow in the HRI frozen pizza distribution operation who told me that the flour used in both the fresh and frozen HRI pizza doughs was some form of all-purpose flour (see Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51647.html#msg51647). If I had to guess, HRI is using a proprietary all-purpose flour formulation that lends itself to machine working when used to make the HRI dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on April 25, 2009, 12:31:59 AM
I'm done with this! :chef:

Thanks to Pete for all his hard work in coming up with information and finding videos that were so helpful. 

100% AP Flour
42 Water
24 Corn Oil
1.75 ADY
1.75 Salt
Thickness Factor = .111

The pictures are a 14" pizza.

287g King Arthur AP Flour
119g Water
69g Corn Oil
5g ADY
5g Salt

Begin by dissolving salt in 110-115* water.  Add ADY and stir it in then let bloom for five minutes.  Add half of the flour and begin to mix.  I did the mixing with the dough hook of my Kitchen Aid mixer.  Once it comes together add the oil and half of the remaining flour (3/4 of all flour now in mixer).  Once that comes together, knead on 3 speed for 5 minutes.  Add remaining flour and mix until combined then knead for 3 additional minutes on 3 speed.  If it seems a little scrappy, add water one teaspoon at a time until it comes together.  This will be a pretty stiff dough.

Place in bowl and cover with a tea towel then let rise in warm oven (light on is good enough for me) for two hours with a pan of hot water on the rack beneath to provide some humidity.  Punch down and let rise again for another two hours.  Remove from oven.

Preheat oven to 475*

Portion dough for same day use but try not to over handle.  Pat out to size then place on a dark perforated disk or some kind of dark pan.  Pinch up the edge to create a rim.  Top skin with 6 3/4 oz. sauce, preferred toppings (I used sweet Italian sausage for the pictured pie), and 10 oz. shredded low moisture part skim mozz.  Cook on middle rack for approximately 10 minutes.

I attempted an overnight, fridge rise with IDY last week and didn't care for the results.  I also tried straight from peel to stone with no luck getting it off the peel.  I've done a lot of NY style and have rarely had peel problems but this was just too much for me.  Peter, the fact that you got it off the peel is another strong point for your consideration to Master Magician status.

I'm done tinkering with this recipe, it turned out delicious but what really sent me over the top was when I reheated the leftovers in the oven.  The smell that overcame my kitchen was the same that I remembered as a little boy when my Grandparents would cook a Home Run Inn pizza in their oven.  It almost brought me to tears fondly remembering those days long ago. :'(  :)

Loo


ok i am in awe of this recipe and i cant wait to try it!  A couple questions.  did you put your perforated disc directly on your stone?  if i use a cutter pan do you oil it? would you also recommend putting it on the stone?  no par bake correct?  thank you Loo!!!  awesome pie!! looks just fabulous! looks just delicious!  one more quick question.  whats your favorite you've made to date?  i saw your malnatis pics!  wow!!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on April 25, 2009, 09:07:07 PM
ok i am in awe of this recipe and i cant wait to try it!  A couple questions.  did you put your perforated disc directly on your stone?  if i use a cutter pan do you oil it? would you also recommend putting it on the stone?  no par bake correct?  thank you Loo!!!  awesome pie!! looks just fabulous! looks just delicious!  one more quick question.  whats your favorite you've made to date?  i saw your malnatis pics!  wow!!!

No need to use the stone just go mid oven with the rack position.  I'd say you would not need to oil the cutter pan in large part because of all the oil in the dough.  No par bake. 

My favorite pie?  HMMMM.  Lately I've really enjoyed my generic chicago thin but I've been making it with KA Bread Flour and that seems like the better way to go than all purp flour.  Just a sausage pie.  I've been tinkering with making my own sweet Italian sausage.  Overall, my Malnati's is still my fave.

Mikita just dropped an honorary puck.  Gotta go, it's anthem time.  Let's go Hawks!!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on April 26, 2009, 04:08:43 PM
thanks Loo!!! you're always a great great help!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Essen1 on April 26, 2009, 04:25:44 PM
Loo,

The Hawks did a nice job by pounding Calgary 5:1! Congrats. Now I can only hope my Sharks do the same against the Ducks tomorrow!

Go Sharks!!!  ;D

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack this thread...
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on April 27, 2009, 05:19:31 AM
Loo,

The Hawks did a nice job by pounding Calgary 5:1! Congrats. Now I can only hope my Sharks do the same against the Ducks tomorrow!

Go Sharks!!!  ;D

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack this thread...

No prob on the hijack, I started it.

I'm pulling for your Sharks as well.  I like the Hawks chances against them better than Vancouver and Luongo.   ;D
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Essen1 on April 27, 2009, 01:29:15 PM
No prob on the hijack, I started it.

I'm pulling for your Sharks as well.  I like the Hawks chances against them better than Vancouver and Luongo.   ;D

Loo,

I agree.

Vancouver and Luongo had a good season and they're tough to play against. So, yes, let Campbell, Toews and the rest of the Hawks visit the Tank, given that the Sharks beat Anaheim first. I'm sure the fans will appreciate seeing Soupy back in the house  ;D
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on May 09, 2009, 02:19:31 AM
ok, my 1st try!  thanks loo! growing up in the chicago burbs, i only got to HRI i think once, and it wasnt the original...but it was so good.  also my mom kept a frozen supply of HRI sausage pizzas whenever i came home. i would say i am a frozen HRI afficianado. not that that is anything to be proud of. i have had 100s of their frozen single pizzas shipped out here in idaho. i cant tell you how many people never tasted anything like it here! and it was frozen.  anyhow Loo and Pete and everyone. this really hit the spot for me.  thanks.  one thing i would change is i need to get a cutter pan.  i also need to go a bit higher than 475.  my cheese was not melting and browning along with the crust, so i had to crank it up to 500 for 2 min. anyhow, i thought it hit.  i used alt and frsh grnd pepper only. oregano sprinked on the dough with sauce(saw it in a vieo) i used 3 cheeses.  whole milk, part skim, and scamorza. with a bit of parm sprinked in spots. heck.....  my wife loved it.  i did too. the crust had a great biscuit flakyness to it, with a crunch.  it was a lot of fun! and delicious in the process.  great recipe! great directions.  made it really easy!

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on May 09, 2009, 02:20:34 AM
one last one.  thanks gang!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on May 11, 2009, 05:30:56 AM
Great work on that pie, mrmojo.  Did you have any leftovers?  For whatever reason this pie is great cold or reheated. 

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: JConk007 on May 11, 2009, 03:07:22 PM
Hey Looks like you got your Mojo on :) for that pie!
Nice job! I too liked the biscuit flakiness of the crust when I made it. BTW I have never had the original or frozen. So I cant really compare. What was your sauce comprised of? Do you think that was the right amount? I like the cheese combination.
As you mention, I think the cutter pans or solid disk www.pizzatools.com will really finalize your recipe
Looks very tasty too!
John
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on May 11, 2009, 09:34:27 PM
Great work on that pie, mrmojo.  Did you have any leftovers?  For whatever reason this pie is great cold or reheated. 

Loo

had a few pieces for lunch the next day.  you are right.  it was excellent!!  something about this crust!  thanks a lot for all your help Loo!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on May 11, 2009, 09:46:30 PM
Hey Looks like you got your Mojo on :) for that pie!
Nice job! I too liked the biscuit flakiness of the crust when I made it. BTW I have never had the original or frozen. So I cant really compare. What was your sauce comprised of? Do you think that was the right amount? I like the cheese combination.
As you mention, I think the cutter pans or solid disk www.pizzatools.com will really finalize your recipe
Looks very tasty too!
John

my sauce was canned puree 22oz, it was albertsons house brand.  nothing added.  no salt, no citric acid.  it is not bad.  this was a different sauce for me, like Petezza and Loo noted salt and pepper only.  i did 1 Tsp salt and about 1/2 tsp pepper.  i then added a shake of oregano when the sauce was on the skin.  i saw that in this group as well.  I am a pizza sauce guy. i ask for extra sauce on almost every thin crust i order.  so the 1st set of pics probably showed more sauce than most people would prefer.  but it wasnt saucy or sloppy. i think i used between 8-10 oz.   i also added a couple Tsp water to thin the sauce when preparing as Loo recommended.    thanks a ton for the pizza pan info! 

i made a batch of 4 dough balls with this last endeavor and I did another HRI pizza last night.  i kept same oven temp 475, but i moved the rack up 1 increment.  it seemed to work out much better for this disc.  the 1st pics show the crust was a little more done than i would prefer.  i also put the skin on the roller and tried not to push the dough at all when it was on the disc, the 1st pics show i pushed it through the perforations a bit.  And this last time i didnt use scamorza, although i thought it was good, the whole milk and part skim only more closely matched to me the taste of the frozen version.   It was really close in my opinion.  just awesome.  The crust was just like i would imagine it would be!  although i wish i had more recent memories of an actual HRI thin from one of their real pizzerias instead of just frozen ones.  thanks again for the kind words! 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: theace1CHI on June 12, 2009, 07:27:38 PM
First time poster here.  >:D Heh.

It came out pretty good. I had some friends over and as you can see we already began eating before I could take a pic of it as whole. I actually made 2 but didnt get a chance to photo the other one.  >:D   :chef:
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on June 15, 2009, 12:44:38 AM
i'd pay good money for that pizza!!  nice job!  man that looks good!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on June 20, 2009, 01:52:36 AM
nice curl(rim) on your pizza!  how did you do that?? i always fold and pinch.  comes out a bit irregular.  yours is virtuall perfect.  again nice job. thats a great looking homeade home run inn!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: theace1CHI on June 20, 2009, 07:54:30 PM
Thanks for your comments. I get the rim like that because I don't pinch much if at all. I push (downwards) using my fingers. This for the most part might require a dough maybe 1/4-1/2 inch bigger than what size I want because I leave the ends of my dough a little thick (That way when I push it doesn't tear or weaken the dough) This was also done by accident because I'm a novice, and I'm really trying to improve my rolling technique. :-D

I attached some photos of tonights pizza to help explain.

By the way, your pizzas look damn good.

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on June 21, 2009, 02:06:34 AM
Beautiful!!  great pics of a great pizza!  thank you for your advice!!!!

-=terry
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Hayden McCall on July 19, 2009, 01:50:36 PM
Hey loo...was the sweet sausage you used raw upon being placed on the pizza...or did you precook it some prior to baking the pizza itself?
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on July 19, 2009, 05:00:18 PM
I put the sausage on raw.  That doesn't necessarily make it right so if for the health safety's sake or for the purpose of reducing calories, go ahead and pre-cook.

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: madjack on August 05, 2009, 09:07:48 PM

...I attempted an overnight, fridge rise with IDY last week and didn't care for the results...

Loo


Can I ask what you didn't like about the dough that had the overnight rise? With my work schedule I have to make dough the night before and stick it in the fridge overnight. I made a pizza last weekend with the recipe as laid out in the original post, using it the same day and it was great. I was hoping an overnight rise would be even better for crust flavor until I re-read your original post.

Also, if anyone knows... whould there be any reason not to use bread flour instead of AP flour for this recipe? I have a bag of Pilsbury brand bread flour to use up. I used that flour in the "generic Chicago thin style" recipe posted in this forum and the crust turned out a bit tougher than when I used AP flour in the same recipe. I was hoping with the oil in this crust, it might not be an issue.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on August 05, 2009, 09:27:00 PM
That goes back so far, I can't remember what I didn't like about it.  Give it a try and see how it turns out.  With the bread flour, go ahead and give it a try and let us know how it works for you.  I've been using bread flour lately (KA or Gold Medal) with the Generic Thin and a little milk as a third of the liquid with nice results.  I know, I'm not much help.   :-\

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: imisschicagopizza on August 09, 2009, 01:19:56 PM
Hi, everyone.  I don't know if any of you are still active in this forum, but I've just joined.

As an amateur home cook and no pizza expert, I would be grateful (VERY!  See story below.) to have the recipe broken down into cups, teaspoons, etc. I can always reduce the recipe, but I just don't understand the way it's written right now. 

I grew up eating HRI and Aurelio's.  My dad used to drive us a half-hour for HRI when the place was a shoebox of a bar.  We'd also go after Blackhawk games.  Great times.  Anyway, I've lived in New Jersey for over 25 years now, and I can't stand the pizza out here.  I finally got smart, Googled HRI, and here I am, ready to experiment.

Loo, would you help me out???

Stuck in Jersey

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Matthew on August 09, 2009, 01:42:03 PM
Hi, everyone.  I don't know if any of you are still active in this forum, but I've just joined.

As an amateur home cook and no pizza expert, I would be grateful (VERY!  See story below.) to have the recipe broken down into cups, teaspoons, etc. I can always reduce the recipe, but I just don't understand the way it's written right now. 

I grew up eating HRI and Aurelio's.  My dad used to drive us a half-hour for HRI when the place was a shoebox of a bar.  We'd also go after Blackhawk games.  Great times.  Anyway, I've lived in New Jersey for over 25 years now, and I can't stand the pizza out here.  I finally got smart, Googled HRI, and here I am, ready to experiment.

Loo, would you help me out???

Stuck in Jersey



See Reply 23 on this thread.

Matt
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: imisschicagopizza on August 09, 2009, 07:04:43 PM
Thanks, Randy.  I think I'm at least in the ballpark, no pun intended.  It's in the oven right now.  Drum roll, please......

Carol
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: madjack on August 15, 2009, 12:40:57 AM
...With the bread flour, go ahead and give it a try and let us know how it works for you.  I've been using bread flour lately (KA or Gold Medal) with the Generic Thin and a little milk as a third of the liquid with nice results.  I know, I'm not much help.   :-\

Loo

I had guests over last weekend and was able to do a bread flour version, and an AP version at the same time, with the same toppings.  I didn't try an overnight rise in the fridge yet. The version made with the bread flour was a little less dense, and seemed to have a little more rise, but honestly, you would have to look pretty hard to tell a difference.

I am trying the Generic Thin with the 1/3 milk as you mentioned tomorrow, with 12 hour rise in the fridge. I'll post any noteworthy results in that topic.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on September 01, 2009, 01:27:08 AM
madjack! im dying to know! did you try the 1/3 milk??  if so what did you think? howd it change the crsut?  thanks man!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: madjack on September 01, 2009, 01:31:30 PM
Sorry, I totally forgot to post... too busy enjoying the results  ;D.


I am posting the results to the Generic Chicago Thin crust thread so as to not goo too far off topic here.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: parallei on January 17, 2010, 10:46:40 PM
I'd never tasted this style of pizza before, so we decided to give it a try.  Whoa!  great stuff!  It might have needed a couple on minutes more here in the Mile-High City, but that gives me an excuse to try it again next weekend.  Photo attached.  Thanks for the recipe....

paralleli
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on January 18, 2010, 10:15:31 AM
Paul,

That's a great looking pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: parallei on January 19, 2010, 02:54:31 PM
Thanks Peter!

We were happy with how it turned out.  With all the experiences shared, and previous work done by others on this board, it's pretty easy to be succsesful.....

Best

Paul 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on January 20, 2010, 01:46:03 AM
no doubt! that is a delicious looking pizza! ive paid good money and would do again in an instant for a za like that!!!  great job!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: WestCountry on January 25, 2010, 11:43:05 AM
Inspired by everyone's success above, I decided to give this a shot.
It was my first time trying this style pie and decided to also try using scamorza cheese (which we all really liked).

I didnít have any ADY on hand, so I had to get creative and used IDY with a long room temp fermentation & proof.

Pie came out great. I loved it, and nice break from NY Style. Iíll definitely make it again. Thanks!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Mad_Ernie on January 25, 2010, 01:27:21 PM
Looks great, WC!   ;D

I'd say you definitely hit a ... homerun. ::) :-D
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on January 25, 2010, 01:32:23 PM
Chris,

Very nice. How did you bake the pizza--on a pan/screen or stone--and did you shape the skin by hand or using a rolling pin?

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: WestCountry on January 25, 2010, 02:51:21 PM
Hi Peter,
I baked the pizza on this pan I found in my pantry (15 inch base)...very similar to the attached. It has a little rim which allowed me to get a nice round shape. I wiped a very light coat of corn oil into the bottom of pan with a paper towel, and this seemed to allow the pizza to came right out after it cooked. I did not use a rolling pin and gently formed/stretched the dough in the air with my hands/fingers, then knuckles, then put the dough into the pan and gently formed/worked it towards the edge. It was very manageable dough for me (meaning it formed and spread well, no tearing)... especially for my 11 hour room temp fermentation-proof.

I am definitely adding this to my repertoire of pizza recipes.

Chris
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Mad_Ernie on January 25, 2010, 04:50:51 PM
Chris:

Given the pan you used, I am curious about the consistency of the crust.  Was it crunchy or chewy?

-ME
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: WestCountry on January 25, 2010, 05:07:37 PM
Hi ME,
Thanks for the kudos and question.
The majority of the crust was not crispy, crunchy or chewy... but instead very light, tender and just a little bit fluffy, one of my family members said it was almost a flaky crust, but not quite. I guess and attribute this to the amount of corn oil (24%) in the dough and type of flour. I used the KAAP flour and TF per recipe (.111). The rim where dough was more exposed did have a nice crunch to it though.

Next time I am in Chicago I can't wait to try the real Home Run Inn as well as several other Chicago style pizzerias to experience their true flavors.

Chris
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Mad_Ernie on January 26, 2010, 10:42:49 AM
Chris:

Thanks for the reply.  I'd be curious to find out what results you would get if next time you placed the pizza on a heated stone instead of using the pan.

Again, excellent job.

-ME
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: parallei on January 27, 2010, 02:54:18 PM
Chris:

Looks great, a much more orderly looking pie than mine!

I wasn't pleased with the bottom on my first attempt. First attempt was 475 F on dark perforated disk on the middle rack.  I tried again this last weekend and put the perforated disk right on the stone and it still didn't brown up like I'd hoped.  More biscut like, as you mentioned.  Like you, I used KAAP and 24% corn oil.

Did the bottom of your pie brown up?

Paul
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: WestCountry on January 27, 2010, 03:47:20 PM
Paul,
I got some browning on the bottom but it was not a "crispy" style crust (as I would get in a NY style recipe). Definitely more tender style crust. But the cool thing was that the crust held up well, did not get soggy and stayed pretty tender as the pizza cooled.  Next time I will try cooking it on the stone direct just to see the difference.
:)
Chris
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: jbrom on January 31, 2010, 05:34:33 PM
loowaters and Pete-zza, you guys are an inspiration. The detailed analysis, your knowledge and commitment, are downright impressive.

I know Iím late to the party, as I've only been reading this site since December 2009. My first attempt at using the posted HRI formulation was as close as I've ever come to the HRI crust taste. Thank you for renewing my interest in trying this crust again. The only problem that I had was trying to get the crust off of the peel onto the pizza stone. It seems as if this was a problem in early posts, for others as well, and why I assume that the main recipe calls for pressing the dough into a pan.

I haven't read every post, but I did want to provide my knowledge of the HRI operation if it could help the overall discussion...and if you guys are still interested in tweaking this recipe. Iíd love for the dough to be less oily and be able to use a pizza stone in the process. At least for me, this is the way that I remember making them.

I worked in the Darien HRI location the summer in 1987. We made the pizzas from ingredients delivered from (what I assumed was) the main 31st location. The dough came in large plastic bins (~ 30" x 18" x 18") at least a couple of times a week and we stored them in the fridge downstairs until we needed them. Pizzas at this location seemed to be created using the "older" method at that time.

* The dough was not pre-portioned in the bins. For the summer I was there, only one guy typically had responsibility for the rolling out the dough according to the pizza size on the order. From experience, he knew how much dough to use from the bin. He would just grab "about" the right amount from the dough bin, form it by hand into a very thick frisbee shape, and pass it though two sheeters to reduce the thickness. His job was done when the flattened dough was on a lightly floured pizza peel.
* The pizza would travel down one of the two kitchen assembly lines creating the finished product. Usually, with at least 3 people on a side, and the ďcheeserĒ at the end who had some quality control responsibility.
* The crust ring was created by hand. It was basically a two hand process: Thumbs slightly overlapping; index fingers flipping the edge of the dough, up and over; thumbs pinching the dough against the index fingers to create the lip.
* Sauce was applied with a ladle to cover the dough. Oregano sprinkled on top from a shaker. I now wish I remember what sauce we used. Sorry, no help.
* All ingredients, except mushrooms, went on before the cheese. HRI sausage came in the same plastic bins as the dough. It was portioned out by hand, and went on raw.
* Once topped, the pizza would go into the oven until the cheese slightly browned. I think there were two ovens in the location, each identical. With five, rotating 6í x 2í stone shelves. The ovens were set to 450-460*

Question: If I would like to use less oil and more salt in the recipe, is there any other adjustments that I should consider. I think that someone mentioned using more salt means using more yeast

Thanks again for the enthusiasm shown on this board. It is very cool.

Jim
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on January 31, 2010, 08:05:37 PM
Jim, welcome to the board and thanks for your insight in to how it's done, or at least was done, at HRI. 

Peter did some trials on it, and many of us can also attest that oil inhibits oven spring of the crust.  After several trials that had less oil I just kept getting pies that looked right going in to the oven, but nothing like a HRI pie out of the oven.  This formulation is quite close to a Malnati's or Uno's recipe with that oil content, with an addition of salt.

Getting this off the peel was not easy for me either.  I just gave up on it and bought my perforated disks to make these pies after seeing a video of the frozen operation using them to cook the pies.  If I were to revisit it I'm sure I'd have better luck now knowing how the top of the dough ball dries out and becoming the bottom of the skin and taking care to keep it moving on the peel and working quickly. 

Loo

Edit:  Also, the salt and yeast.  The ingredients listing has yeast before salt so there is either more yeast than salt or they are of equal parts.  Equal parts seems unlikely because you'd think that would need to be listed alphabetically.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on January 31, 2010, 08:59:06 PM
Loo,

What type of perforated disk are you using--a plain aluminum (initially unseasoned) disk or one of the dark anodized type?

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on February 01, 2010, 05:26:44 AM
I have two 15" dark anodized disks from American Metalcraft.

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: parallei on February 02, 2010, 10:22:14 PM
Here's a photo of my 2nd attempt at the HRI pie.  These things are great!  I'm still not pleased with the lack of browning on the bottom.  I'm using a dark perforated anodized disk and have tried it both on the stone and on the rack at 475F.  Any suggestions? 

Thanks...
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on February 02, 2010, 10:30:21 PM
Paul,

Have you been fermenting the dough at room temperature and, if so, for how long and at roughly what room temperature? Apparently Loo has been getting decent bottom crust browning with his dark anodized disks so there may be a reason why you haven't been getting the desired degree of bottom crust browning. Maybe Loo has an opinion or advice on this.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: parallei on February 02, 2010, 10:44:28 PM
Pete:

I've been doing a room temp fermintation.  That would be about 65-68F this time of year in my kitchen, and I seem to get a fairly strong rise. I let it go two hours,  punch down, and two hours more.  Maybe I need to buy that sweet 14-inch anodized pan I saw in KA's latest catalog.  That's what I'm thinking.....

Paul
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on February 02, 2010, 11:13:11 PM
Paul,

Are you thinking of an unperforated dark anodized pan so that you can use some oil in it to get more of a "fried" effect on the bottom of the crust?

Another possibility to get more bottom crust coloration is to use some honey in the dough. It can take several hours for the enzymes in the flour to extract enough natural sugars to feed the yeast and also to produce sufficient residual sugars to contribute to crust coloration. The yeast in the recipe you have been using is 1.75%. That is a lot of yeast, even for a room temperature fermented dough and it is possible that the yeast is gobbling up too much of the natural sugars, leaving too little residual sugars to get better bottom crust browning. I have used honey to get the added crust color, not only for its natural color but because of simple sugars it includes. You might try about 3% by weight of flour. It depends on your sugar sensitivity, but at 3% honey you might not detect the sweetness it contributes on the palate. I have used 5% honey and have not found it to be objectionable.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: scott123 on February 02, 2010, 11:15:20 PM
Paul, if you haven't tried the bottom shelf, try it. If you've tried bottom shelf and it didn't give you the browning you wanted, try bottom shelf with the door ajar.  With the door slightly open the heat won't collect in the headspace and the bottom element will have a tendency to stay on- in essence broiling the pizza from beneath.  Because the heat won't collect, the top of the pie will cook very slowly- possibly too slowly.  The first time you attempt this, maybe go half oven ajar, half closed- preferably the first half ajar as bottom heat is better for oven spring.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: parallei on February 02, 2010, 11:43:12 PM
Peter-

Yes, exactly, I was thinking of the "fried" effect it the pan.  I think I'll give the honey a try first, I always use a bit in my NY style pies. However, my birthday is coming up and a fellow could always use another pizza pan!  I wonder why I can't get the color Loo got with Loo's recipe?  Thanks for the reminder on the honey.

Scott-

I'm as low as I can go in my Viking oven, with the disk on the stone at 475F.  I preheat for an hour minimum.  I'll try your tip with the door.  Maybe I'll also try directly on the stone as WestCountry suggested.

Thanks to both of you...   
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: scott123 on February 03, 2010, 12:33:36 AM
Scott-

I'm as low as I can go in my Viking oven, with the disk on the stone at 475F.  I preheat for an hour minimum.  I'll try your tip with the door.  Maybe I'll also try directly on the stone as WestCountry suggested.

Paul, try bottom shelf, no stone.  If the stone is thin, it will only pass a certain amount of heat to the disk and then it will act like an insulator.  If the stone is thick, it might be made from a poorly conductive material and might not sufficiently preheat in that 1 hour minimum time frame. Try once without any stone whatsoever. Oh, and no convection. You want the convective heat going straight up from the element to the disk, not swirling around the oven.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: firefly765 on February 03, 2010, 11:16:34 AM
Loo,

Thanks for the great recipe. I've done it twice now with awesome results. I tweeked it a little as I have no mixer (just a food processor). I copied & pasted your recipe then changed to my way of doing things. Here is my version:
I have a couple issues which I'll address after the recipe.

Flour (100%): 204.22 g  |  7.2 oz | 0.45 lbs
Water (42%): 85.77 g  |  3.03 oz | 0.19 lbs
ADY (1.75%): 3.57 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.95 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):3.57 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp 
Sugar (1%): 2.04 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Oil:  (20%): 40.84 g | 1.44 oz | 0.09 lbs | 9.08 tsp | 3.03 tbsp 
Total: 340.03 g | 11.99 oz | 0.75 lbs | TF = 0.10605
12Ē diameter  .105 thickness factor
Begin by dissolving salt & sugar in 110-115* water.  Add ADY and stir it in then let bloom for five minutes.  Add half of the flour and begin to mix in food processor Once it comes together add the oil and half of the remaining flour (3/4 of all flour now in mixer).  Once that comes together, knead until comes into a ball.  Add remaining flour and mix until combined.  If it seems a little scrappy, add water one teaspoon at a time until it comes together.  This will be a pretty stiff dough.

Place in bowl and cover with a tea towel then let rise in warm oven (light on is good enough for me) for two hours with a pan of hot water on the rack beneath to provide some humidity.  Punch down and let rise again for another two hours.  Remove from oven.

Preheat oven to 475*

Portion dough for same day use but try not to over handle.  Pat out to size then place on a pizza stone  Pinch up the edge to create a rim.  Top skin with 6 3/4 oz. sauce, preferred toppings and 10 oz. shredded low moisture part skim mozz.


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
What i do after the 2nd rise is place in covered oiled bowl overnight in fridge. Remove from fridge for ~ 2 hrs. form shell on a floured counter w/o kneeding.
the dough is very fragile at this time.  ???
I'm not kneeding, would it help to kneed a couple minutes prior to forming into a shell? ??? ???
 It's very tasty & flaky, almost like pastry, but not very elastic. If i were to pick it up & try to stretch it, my hand would go right through it. :-\

Thanks for any help.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on February 03, 2010, 11:21:18 AM
I'm as low as I can go in my Viking oven, with the disk on the stone at 475F.

Paul,

I wasn't aware of the fact that you were using the disk on a stone. You might want to try scott123's recommendation before altering your dough formulation.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on February 03, 2010, 11:27:30 AM
Pat out to size then place on a pizza stone  Pinch up the edge to create a rim.  Top skin with 6 3/4 oz. sauce, preferred toppings and 10 oz. shredded low moisture part skim mozz.

firefly765,

As a point of clarification and to help Loo better respond to your questions, are you saying that you are placing the skin directly onto a preheated pizza stone and then forming a rim, dressing the pizza, and baking it?

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on February 03, 2010, 04:07:55 PM
Firefly, a couple things to clarify.  First, like Peter asked, we need to know if you're placing your skin onto a stone then making a rim.  That would mean removal from the oven and a probably a significant heat loss.  Also, you've placed a disk on to the stone?  Honestly, if you're placing the disk on to the stone in the oven you're going to get less than effective use of both.  Dark disk right on to, probably, the middle rack.  Dark disk too low will overcook the crust.  Or you can move it to a higher rack position to finish the top after several minutes into the cook.

You don't want to knead before forming the skin as it will probably make it a bit bucky for you.  With the high oil content of this dough it will seem like it's not going to stretch very well without ripping.  Pat it or roll it out to form the skin.  It's been discussed in a couple of the HRI threads that the frozen operation uses a hot dough press to form the skins.  I've found that pressing it out with our fingers and hands is good enough for home pizza making.

Do you have any pics?

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: firefly765 on February 03, 2010, 07:37:40 PM

actually that's just part of my cut & paste from Loo's original recipe. I form the skin on a floured counter then slide it onto a stone via a peel w/ cornmeal.


firefly765,

As a point of clarification and to help Loo better respond to your questions, are you saying that you are placing the skin directly onto a preheated pizza stone and then forming a rim, dressing the pizza, and baking it?

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: firefly765 on February 03, 2010, 07:43:00 PM

Loo,
That was someone else's qoute he was responding to. I'm cooking directly on a 13" pizza stone on a big green egg (I'm that guy again).
so my dough should be "fragile"?
I'll just be careful with it & take some pics next time. Maybe this weekend. ;)

Is my prep method OK per your guy's opinions?

Firefly, a couple things to clarify.  First, like Peter asked, we need to know if you're placing your skin onto a stone then making a rim.  That would mean removal from the oven and a probably a significant heat loss.  Also, you've placed a disk on to the stone?  Honestly, if you're placing the disk on to the stone in the oven you're going to get less than effective use of both.  Dark disk right on to, probably, the middle rack.  Dark disk too low will overcook the crust.  Or you can move it to a higher rack position to finish the top after several minutes into the cook.

You don't want to knead before forming the skin as it will probably make it a bit bucky for you.  With the high oil content of this dough it will seem like it's not going to stretch very well without ripping.  Pat it or roll it out to form the skin.  It's been discussed in a couple of the HRI threads that the frozen operation uses a hot dough press to form the skins.  I've found that pressing it out with our fingers and hands is good enough for home pizza making.

Do you have any pics?

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on February 03, 2010, 08:25:07 PM
You don't have a mixer and if you wanted to forego using the food processor, with this type of dough and it's high oil content, you do a hand knead you won't have to do it too long.  Probably 5-6 minutes would do depending on how aggressively you go at it. 

I really don't know how cooking in a Big Green Egg or Little Blue Egg (does that exist?) for that matter works so helping you on that front...well, I'm not able to give you anything. 

This is one of those pizzas where one of the toughest things to pin down was hit right away.  The sauce.  It's an Escalon product but it's a watered down, pretty thin, puree with salt and pepper.  Thin enough that I'll pour it in the center and pick up the disk and let the sauce run around on the skin to cover completely.  I use an immersion blender to puree 6 in 1's.  A hand shake of oregano on the sauce before topping and that's it.

I'm going to repeat something that I think is really weird about this type of pizza.  It's better after being reheated.   Big oven, toaster oven, either way,  just no microwave.  I dont' know if that's because HRI frozens are 90% cooked and we finish them in the oven or what, but to really get a great recreation of HRI's pizzas a next day reheat makes this pizza shine.  Strange.  The neapolitan guys will roll their eyes at that. :-[

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on February 03, 2010, 09:00:48 PM
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
What i do after the 2nd rise is place in covered oiled bowl overnight in fridge. Remove from fridge for ~ 2 hrs. form shell on a floured counter w/o kneeding.
the dough is very fragile at this time.  ???
I'm not kneeding, would it help to kneed a couple minutes prior to forming into a shell? ??? ???
 It's very tasty & flaky, almost like pastry, but not very elastic. If i were to pick it up & try to stretch it, my hand would go right through it. :-\

firefly765,

Loo's recipe as posted at the start of this thread is intended to be used a fairly short period of time after the dough has been made. To this end, a lot of yeast, 1.75% ADY, is used. If you choose to place the dough in the refrigerator after the second rise, there is a high probability that the dough will overferment and become overly extensible and prone to tearing and thin spots. Re-kneading or reworking the dough will not be successful, as Loo noted. The dough simply wasn't designed for refrigeration. If you want to come up with a refrigerated version, you would have to significantly reduce the amount of yeast and possibly make other changes in the fermentation protocol. Whether you will get comparable results as the same-day version or whether you like the results as well are questions that you can only answer by trying a cold fermented version of Loo's recipe or a combination of room temperature fermentation and cold fermentation.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: firefly765 on February 04, 2010, 08:13:07 AM

Thanks for all the help. As far as the egg goes I don't need any help there. I've got that thing pretty dialed in.
As for my sauce, I'm not really trying to "clone" the HRI pizza. I am from Chicago, but I don't remember ever having eaten there. Maybe on my next visit. So, I wouldn't really know how to compare. I've never seen the 6 in 1's down here in S FlA. I'm Using Fratelli's (Sp?) canned pizza sauce. It's cheap ($1.49/can) and tastes really good to me. I'll probably try to tweek it with some fresh chopped tomatoes.

It's probably better reheated because of all that oil....good for the hangover! :)







You don't have a mixer and if you wanted to forego using the food processor, with this type of dough and it's high oil content, you do a hand knead you won't have to do it too long.  Probably 5-6 minutes would do depending on how aggressively you go at it. 

I really don't know how cooking in a Big Green Egg or Little Blue Egg (does that exist?) for that matter works so helping you on that front...well, I'm not able to give you anything. 

This is one of those pizzas where one of the toughest things to pin down was hit right away.  The sauce.  It's an Escalon product but it's a watered down, pretty thin, puree with salt and pepper.  Thin enough that I'll pour it in the center and pick up the disk and let the sauce run around on the skin to cover completely.  I use an immersion blender to puree 6 in 1's.  A hand shake of oregano on the sauce before topping and that's it.

I'm going to repeat something that I think is really weird about this type of pizza.  It's better after being reheated.   Big oven, toaster oven, either way,  just no microwave.  I dont' know if that's because HRI frozens are 90% cooked and we finish them in the oven or what, but to really get a great recreation of HRI's pizzas a next day reheat makes this pizza shine.  Strange.  The neapolitan guys will roll their eyes at that. :-[

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: firefly765 on February 04, 2010, 09:10:39 AM

OK my yeast must be overfermented. If i want an overnight should i cut back to 1% ADY?
or, just throw right onto the fridge with no room temp rise?
or, just make it the same day like LOO meant for it? ;D

The reason i ask is because sometimes it's more convienent for me to prep the dough the day before and just be ready to go the next day with no extra mess & time.
I'm going to mix up another batch tonight & maybe a whole wheat the wife has been asking about. Look for me on the Specialty-Grain Pizzas forum next!! :-D


Thanks,
AC



firefly765,

Loo's recipe as posted at the start of this thread is intended to be used a fairly short period of time after the dough has been made. To this end, a lot of yeast, 1.75% ADY, is used. If you choose to place the dough in the refrigerator after the second rise, there is a high probability that the dough will overferment and become overly extensible and prone to tearing and thin spots. Re-kneading or reworking the dough will not be successful, as Loo noted. The dough simply wasn't designed for refrigeration. If you want to come up with a refrigerated version, you would have to significantly reduce the amount of yeast and possibly make other changes in the fermentation protocol. Whether you will get comparable results as the same-day version or whether you like the results as well are questions that you can only answer by trying a cold fermented version of Loo's recipe or a combination of room temperature fermentation and cold fermentation.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on February 04, 2010, 10:03:24 AM
Either way will work for you.  Maybe cut the warm ferment time to one rise then into the fridge.  If you're giving it two rises then to the fridge overnite, cut in half.  It won't hurt.  Plenty of ways to tinker that won't affect results too much but will increase the life of the dough before use.

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: parallei on February 07, 2010, 04:23:12 PM
I'm almost there.  I tried Scott's suggestion and placed the disk on the lowest rack without the stone, cracked the door a bit, and no convection.  Additionally, I preheated for about 1 hr 15 min. to just below 475F and then cranked the temp up a bit once the pie was in the even to get the bottom element going again.  Much better results browning on the bottom, but still not as brown as I'd like it toward the center.  Next I'll try Peter's suggestion, with the addition of a bit of honey.  But I'll probably cut the yeast down to 3 or 4 % and let it go overnight.  Sorry for the blurred bottom shoot!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on February 07, 2010, 04:41:11 PM
I'm almost there.  I tried Scott's suggestion and placed the disk on the lowest rack without the stone, cracked the door a bit, and no convection.  Additionally, I preheated for about 1 hr 15 min. to just below 475F and then cranked the temp up a bit once the pie was in the even to get the bottom element going again.  Much better results browning on the bottom, but still not as brown as I'd like it toward the center.  Next I'll try Peter's suggestion, with the addition of a bit of honey.  But I'll probably cut the yeast down to 3 or 4 % and let it go overnight.  Sorry for the blurred bottom shoot!

Paul,

If you are not using the pizza stone you shouldn't need to preheat your oven for one hour and fifteen minutes. That long preheat is normally just to get a pizza stone hot enough to bake the pizza at the desired temperature and have the stone retain the heat. I bake many pizzas on screens (and no stone) and I preheat the oven only long enough to reach the desired bake temperature. In most cases, that takes my oven about 12-15 minutes. In your case, whether you use honey or not, you might want to use an oven temperature that is initially higher than the 475 degrees F temperature you used. You can always lower the oven temperature if it looks like the bottom crust is browning too much or too quickly.

Can you clarify what you mean by cutting the yeast down to "3 or 4%"?

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: parallei on February 07, 2010, 09:20:07 PM
Peter,

Quote
Can you clarify what you mean by cutting the yeast down to "3 or 4%"?

Sure, I meant 0.3 or 0.4%!

O.K.,  I'll try a higher temperature.  Good thing my lipid profile was good in December!

Best

Paul
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: firefly765 on February 08, 2010, 10:54:36 AM



Do you have any pics?

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: jimmy33 on March 31, 2010, 10:46:17 PM
Hey Pete-zza
  Can you help me with a 18 inch . I will need measurements and instructions thanks .  You Rock!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 01, 2010, 11:16:42 AM
jimmy33,

I'd like you to use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html and take a first stab at answering your own question as to the formulation to use to make an 18" pizza. That is the best way for you to learn. Loo can correct me on this, but to the best of my knowledge, the only dough formulation that he posted is the one at the top of this thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.0.html. If I am correct on this, all of the baker's percents and the thickness factor are given in that post and should be used in the expanded dough calculating tool. If you care to post the dough formulation you get from using that tool, I'd be happy to review your results.

On the matter of instructions to follow, you might want to read this thread in its entirety since there are many different variations, both in terms of technique and equipment to use. That way, you can see whether you have the right equipment to make the pizza. If there are any remaining questions as to instructions to follow, I will defer to Loo on those matters since is the expert on the HRI style.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on April 01, 2010, 08:59:03 PM
Jimmy33, Peter's right, get familiar with the dough tools, they're incredibly helpful.

A couple things about this formulation and how I've been preparing it of late.  First, addressing what BTB had to say over here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10605.msg94575.html#msg94575 about the "thick-thin" aspect of the pie, I seem to be making this thicker each time I've made it of late.  The most recent doughball was 400g for a 12" pie.  That's a thickness factor of .1247, considerably thicker than when I started this thread.  One thing though, I'm over sizing the skin by a full inch then rolling the extra 1/2" (radius) back over to create the rim and kinda braid/pinch it up.  That's now a 13" skin that effectively has a TF of .1062 but gets rolled back to 12".  Make sense?  Also, I will not roll this dough out.  I pat it out to size using some bench flour.  That helps keep the tender texture that we're looking for with this clone.

Also, I'm really giving this a good bake.  I'm treating like I do a cracker type thin.  Preheat at 450* then when the pie goes in on the middle rack, I bump the heat to 525* to keep the element on and really start cooking that bottom.  I'm cooking on perforated disks.  This crust needs to get really cooked well and with enough sauce you'll get the exactly the type of crust texture that you're getting at HRI, at least as far as I remember. 

This type of pie comes out really good using my Malnati's clone dough as well as making this exact formula at the beginning of the thread.  It does benefit by having some salt in it which the Malnati's clone does not.  Cook it until you think it's done...then give it a little more time.  Of course don't burn it but get it nice and brown.

And Peter, as far as being the HRI expert, I think I'll actually defer to BTB on that.  I can count the times on one hand that I ate the original HRI pie from the first restaurant and I've never eaten it there, always takeout...and that's when I was a kid.  My dad on the other hand had plenty of them.  I'd eaten several times at the old Rolling Meadows(?) location (on Algonquin Rd., IIRC), but that wasn't the same as the original. 

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: jalessi on June 26, 2010, 09:59:42 PM
Loowaters,

Made the first HRI pie today and it tasted good.

It was not as buttery as I remember.

What would add more of a butter taste?

Thank You

Jeff...
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: andieu on July 23, 2010, 05:19:07 PM
I love Home Run Inn Pizza!! I am eating one right now :)
Does anyone have a recipe for their pizza sauce? I am not the best cook and no way could I replicate anything unless I have an exact recipe to follow  ;)
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on July 23, 2010, 06:40:05 PM
Welcome to the board.  Page 1, reply 2.

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: RobDude on August 06, 2010, 04:08:40 PM
Thanks for the recipe and to all the posters with pictures.  I'm going to give this a try this weekend.

One thing that really amazes me is how different all the pizzas end up looking.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: buzz on August 20, 2010, 10:19:05 AM
I tried this out with the following recipe:

1 cup AP

7 TBS water

4 TBS extra light olive oil

1 tsp fast-rise yeast

1 tsp Kosher salt

1/4 tsp sugar

I didn't have any corn oil, but I was curious about the resulting texture. I think you have nailed the HRI formula! Even with the olive oil, it was very close, so I will try it again with corn oil. I used a blend of Frigo and Stella mozzarella, which seemed to mimic the taste.

Great job of figuring it out!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: orlando pizza man 1 on August 24, 2010, 07:51:31 PM
buzz: Your recipe sounds quite good, about what size pizza does it make? About how thick is it as well?? Anxious to try your recipe vs. loo's which i think is very good. Have had great results with it. Look forward to your reply. Thanks very much!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: buzz on August 24, 2010, 08:06:03 PM
It makes a 12-inch pizza. I roll the dough out and press it into a cutter pan (pretty thin--maybe 1/8 inch, but it rises up pretty well--I don't dock my dough, either). I tried the corn oil but found that I liked the extra light olive oil better, but I will re-try to see. I found that with all the oil (making the dough heavy), I got a better rise by proofing the fast-rise yeast first--it rose very nicely in two hours (as opposed to about 4 with the non-proof method). For the first try I did two rises.

I found that the combination of Frigo and Stella mozzarellas (about 75% Frigo and 25% Stella) came out very authentic to the HRI taste, but this could be the result of getting the cheese very toasty!

Let me know how you do!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: DTJunkie on September 16, 2010, 12:56:22 PM
Hey guys, this is my first attempt at the Home Run Inn Style pizza. I did not use as much oil as the other recipes, 15% compared to like 21%. I opted for less oil since the dough leaks oil sometimes when I make deep dish. I did not want it like that for the thin crust, but I will consider using more oil anyways next time since I did not like the taste of my crust. The crust was disappointing, kind of doughy in taste. What can I do to make it taste more like Home Run Inn or Chicago style crust? I used at pizza stone at 450 degrees for about 15 minutes and I guess that was too long since the crust was slightly hard. What times are ideal to cook the crust and to cook the sausage?

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on September 16, 2010, 08:33:11 PM
Truthfully DTJunkie, what you made isn't even close to the recipe posted at the start of this thread.  You've reduced the oil by nearly 40% from what is called for.  Not that the formula you put together can't make a good pizza, it would probably be quite good for a standard thin crust pie.  Try using 185g of that dough for a 12 or 13" pizza and you'd probably like it just fine.  That difference in oil will make a huge difference in taste.  Try using a little classic olive oil in the formulation too for a little different flavor if you like. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "leaks oil".  Is this in the rise?  Cold rise?  Fridge rise?  Room temp?  Or in the bake?  Did you cook directly on the stone?  450 is a little low for use with a stone, IMO.  I like to heat it as high as I can (550) for about 45 minutes and then cook at a lower temp once the pie goes in, say 475 or 500. 

Raw sausage should cook just fine at these temps as long as it cooks long enough for the pie to look as good as the one you baked in that pic.  The cheese looks quite good. 

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: buzz on September 17, 2010, 09:50:33 AM
Last night I tried another version of the HRI recipe and met with great success--as a matter of fact, about half an hour after gobbling up all the pizza (now I'm going to have to fast for a week), I walked into the kitchen and was greeted by that very distinctive Home Run Inn smell!

Here's the recipe I used for a 12-inch pizza--

1 cup Gold medal AP
7 TBS water
4 TBS Carapelli Extra Light olive oil
1 tsp fast-rise yeast
1 tsp Kosher salt
1/2 tsp sugar

(Although HRI lists corn oil on their ingredients list, I find that the extra light olive oil makes a richer, more flavorful result)

I put all in the bread machine and let it mix for 3 minutes, then knead for 7 minutes. The result is a fairly sticky dough, so I kneaded the ball with some bench flour for about 30 seconds, then oiled it up and let it rise in a slightly warm oven for 4 hours (the oil makes it a heavy dough, so it takes longer to rise). Beautiful rise! Then I punched it down and let it rest for about 15 minutes, after which it was so pliable that I could stretch it out by hand quit thinly in a 12-inch cutter pan.

For the sauce I used Tomato Magic ground tomatoes, and for the cheese, a Sargento shredded Mozzarella/Provolone combo (I think this is the secret, because in my previous attempts I only got a modicum of the HRI smell, and this time--wow!).

I like to use a large countertop oven, so I bake pizzas at 450 covered with foil on the lowest rack until the bottom starts to take on color, then move it to the upper rack uncovered where the top cooks very quickly.

It tasted just like HRI--and even looked like HRI!

Amazing!

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: parallei on October 03, 2010, 01:06:45 AM
A change in the weather makes it O.K. to use the kitchen oven and do a Loo's HRI.

No high heat, fancy pants mixers or flours here >:D

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on October 03, 2010, 08:52:12 AM
A change in the weather makes it O.K. to use the kitchen oven and do a Loo's HRI.

No high heat, fancy pants mixers or flours here >:D



parallei,

Your pizza looks delicious!   :)  Great job.

Norma

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Bluesology on October 08, 2010, 10:31:39 PM
I made this tonight and it came out awesome.  Nice job on the formulation.  I also wanted to compliment you on your idea with the oven and the warm water.  I periodically took the pan of water out of the oven and heated it up to almost boiling.  It was a great solution for creating a proof box in the home.

Chad
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: the_dude on December 02, 2010, 04:33:13 AM
This pizza looks great and I'm going to give it a shot.

I'll follow Loo's recipe as much as possible, but I've got to do a hand-knead and an overnight rise. I'll gladly take any advice on any mods to Loo's directions. I'm mostly concerned with hand-knead time and when to punch down the dough. Should I let it rise a couple hours before the fridge? Plus, I'm making two 14" pies and I'm curious when I should divide the dough into two balls. Also, would EVOO be a bad idea in place of the corn oil or the ELOO Buzz prefers? (I'm actually making these pizzas for guests visiting from Italy, so they might prefer an olive oil flavor and EVOO is all I have.)

Thanks in advance for any advice!

Jeff
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on December 02, 2010, 05:56:16 AM
Jeff, your hand knead, depending on how aggressively you hand knead, I'd say should be in the 8-10 min. range.  Let it rise to double in size once as a bulk and then portion before fridge.  That's just easier than doing it after the fridge rise, I've found.  Portioning and re-balling cold, or even cool, dough is a pain.

Don't use EVOO.  In that amount it would be awful!  If you'd want to replace a small amount of the oil, say 5-10% of the total oil, with EVOO that could work but classic olive oil is still the better option. 

Good luck.

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: BTB on December 02, 2010, 07:42:44 AM
Last night I tried another version of the HRI recipe and met with great success -- as a matter of fact, about half an hour after gobbling up all the pizza . . . I walked into the kitchen and was greeted by that very distinctive Home Run Inn smell!  . . . . It tasted just like HRI -- and even looked like HRI!
Buzz, we got to get you to reach for the camera next time and share that view of the pizza with the rest of us.  Sounds like a great tasting pizza.  I'm putting it on my "bucket list" to try.  I, too, like the taste and flavor of extra light OO.

                                                                                                     --BTB                  ;D
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: buzz on December 02, 2010, 11:14:08 AM
It usually doesn't last long enough to be photographed--lol!

I tried it again with 3 TBS oil and liked it better (but I heavily oiled the dough ball). The Sargento cheese seems to mimic HRI perfectly, but the mozzarealla-provolone blend might have a bit too much provolone. So I mixed in some more Sargento mozarella and this did the trick!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on December 02, 2010, 08:04:39 PM
When you guys use the extra light olive oil, are you replacing all the corn oil with it or just a large percentage?

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: buzz on December 03, 2010, 08:36:24 AM
I replace all the corn oil with the extra light olive oil. I find that the result is richer and more flavorful, and the olive oil isn't as unhealthy as corn oil. I'm assuming that HRI uses corn oil because it's cheaper.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: BTB on December 03, 2010, 08:53:35 AM
I generally only use either corn oil or vegetable oil as the "base" oil, and I'm finding myself blending either of those oils with olive oil more and more.  And I'm also starting to lean more and more in favor of having the olive oil in a larger proportion (of the oil total).  And with the olive oil, it's generally regular OO or preferably the extra light version, which we really like the effect or light taste that it gives to pizza crusts.  It doesn't seem to make much sense, but I think I somewhat agree with Buzz that it makes it more richer and flavorful . . . in a different kind of way.  But in any event, we just like it's effect.  Now with my beer, I don't know about extra light . . .

Incidentally, there's a pizzeria down here in the Tampa Bay area that often gets the media No. 1 best pizza in the region award (i.e., Cappy's) and they surprisingly put in a lot of extra virgin olive oil into their dough.  It's pretty distinctive when you taste a bite, but it is pretty good.  They are famous for their neo-neapolitan NY style thin crust and Chicago Style deep dish pizza.  I prefer their Chicago Style deep dish, but being originally from Chicago, I don't remember any of the classic deep dish greats using EVOO, but it is good in the Tampa version . . . surprisingly.

                                                                               --BTB             :D
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on December 03, 2010, 10:41:50 AM
Thanks BTB for the breakdown on that.  Regarding EVOO in the dough, Gino's East's formulation cites it in their ingredients breakdown.  For my Gino's clone (based on foodblogger's) I use it in a very small percentage.

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: cup-o-pizza on December 04, 2010, 12:15:44 PM
Hey guys,

I'm going to try this recipe very soon (I love HRI!).  I was just wondering which dough calculator Loo used to formulate the recipe on the first page of the thread.  I presume it was the Chicago dough calculator.  If so, what should I enter for the "how far up the sides" field?

Thanks,
Matt
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on December 04, 2010, 01:40:26 PM
Matt, I actually devised this with my own spreadsheet but you could use the Expanded Dough Tool or the Deep Dish tool.  What I've adjusted to doing, and I don't think I've mentioned this before, is rollout one inch larger than my intended dimension.   You could use the Expanded Tool for that or try the DD Tool and use 1/2" or something on the side measurement.  That would give you a slightly thicker skin, though.

Loo 4
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2010, 01:44:12 PM
Matt,

I would use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. It offers a lot more ingredients, including in the oil department in case you want to use a blend of oils.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on December 04, 2010, 03:38:03 PM
I should clarify that I roll out that extra inch with the purpose of rolling it back to make the rim.  Pretty big detail I left out.  Sorry.

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: cup-o-pizza on December 04, 2010, 06:37:41 PM
Thanks Pete and Loo. That's helpful info!  My perforated anodized pan should be arriving at the end of next week. I'll give this recipe a shot next weekend.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: the_dude on December 05, 2010, 05:22:08 AM
Loo,

Thanks again for the recipe and advice. I used all corn oil and it came out great! The crust had that nice, "marbled" look to the underside like your original pictures. I really need to figure out how to set up my digital camera for better closeups because the ones I took didn't do it justice, and I was really surprised just how similar it looked to yours. I'd say it was 1/2 shade lighter as I had my stone 2/3 up in my oven. Having only deep-dish (45 min.) pies under my belt, I just didn't trust the top would "out bake" the bottom on the middle rack. I will heed your advice and use the middle rack the next time around, because that bottom crust can withstand the heat. Never having eaten an H.R.I thin crust, I was impressed with the results. Even though the dough ingredients are almost identical to my deep dish, the crust is much different. It has an almost "candied" quality to it, and with all of the corn oil and crispiness, you would swear it has cornmeal added to it. Really unique but excellent. I only wish I made three instead of two!

Jeff
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: zitomj on October 16, 2011, 10:41:35 PM
Here is a video showing the pizza being made in HRI restaurant.

http://youtu.be/TsQCgtla79E (http://youtu.be/TsQCgtla79E)
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on October 20, 2011, 11:30:52 AM
Hello everyone,

I'm going to try my hand at making a Home Run Inn pie this weekend.  I have to admidt that i've gotten a bit lost with all the different HRI threads on this site though...  Can anyone tell me if Loo's original post in this thread is the best formula for this dough?  Also, since i've never actually had HRI before, are there any other threads on this site that I should read for background info on HRI before I try and make this pie?

i've had GREAT success with V&N pies, loo's generic thin crust, Malnati's, Lehmann's NYC, hoping this one will be as sucessful!

Thanks!   :chef:
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on October 23, 2011, 10:41:37 AM
made this last night using the weights given in the original post and it turned out well.  i've never had HRI before so I can't tell how it compared to the original.  The crust had a very oily/rich pie-crust-like flavor.  It was good, but I think I prefer more "standard" tasting doughs.  

i'm now making quite excellent doughs, but what's really limiting the quality of my pies is my cheese.  i can't seem to find any of the recommend brands here in canada, so i'm just using private label "pizza mozarella" from teh supermarket.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 03, 2012, 06:46:57 PM
Delicious recipe.  Great pizza.  There is something about it, though, that just isn't quite HRI.  To me, HRI has a more flaky/pastry quality, whereas this dough produced something decidedly more "biscuit"-like (in the parlance of this forum).  This recipe produced a crust that was very much like deep dish pizza, IMO.  Maybe I did something wrong, but I think of HRI more like a crunchy, oily croissant or something.  Well, not a croissant, but flaky and more dough-like, but stiff and even crunchy.  I dunno.  It's hard to describe. 

Again, really top notch pizza recipe.  I loved that it was detailed down to the sauce and cheese weight. 








 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 03, 2012, 07:17:47 PM
garvey, that looks awesome!  what kind of pan did you bake it in?  is it a deep dish pan?  how did that work?  what was your cook time and temperature?
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 03, 2012, 10:52:40 PM
Thanks, CDNpielover.  Yeah, that's my 12" deep dish pan.  It worked great--so well, in fact, that I immediately regretted having ordered several cutter pans the other day.  Heh.

I baked it on the middle rack at 450o for 17 minutes.  (The stones were on the bottom rack, since I had a lot of baking to do...trying to reduce recovery time and all...three pizzas, two quesadillas, and two loaves of sour rye...)

I think if I try this again, I need to do more research.  There is something that just isn't right.  Don't get me wrong: it's a tasty pie and worthy in its own right.  It just isn't completely HRI.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Buttercat on June 01, 2012, 03:33:11 PM
Delicious recipe.  Great pizza.  There is something about it, though, that just isn't quite HRI.  To me, HRI has a more flaky/pastry quality, whereas this dough produced something decidedly more "biscuit"-like (in the parlance of this forum).  This recipe produced a crust that was very much like deep dish pizza, IMO.  Maybe I did something wrong, but I think of HRI more like a crunchy, oily croissant or something.  Well, not a croissant, but flaky and more dough-like, but stiff and even crunchy.  I dunno.  It's hard to describe. 


Ha ha, I agree with this sentiment completely and read through this whole thread till I found someone who mentioned this; took all the way to the last page!

I like and have done the recipe stated here numerous times, but I've never had the crust come out *quite* with that crunchiness and almost splintered texture of a real HRI. I certainly don't want to change the "biscuit" into a croissant texture, but do you guys (Loo and Pete) think maybe folding the dough and chilling numerous times like one would a puff pastry would give it that "layered" touch?

I figure a long knead beforehand might even give it that stiff doughiness Garvey's talking about.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on June 02, 2012, 11:51:19 PM
In hindsight, even though I liked eating this pizza at the time, this was one of my biggest homemade pizza disappointments ever.  It really is not HRI at all.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on June 03, 2012, 08:24:24 AM
Garvey,

I have never had a HRI pizza so I have no idea what one tastes like. However, do you know if a frozen HRI pizza tastes like a comparable fresh HRI pizza as baked on either the original HRI location with a deck oven or one of the other locations that apparently now use conveyor ovens? The HRI website says at http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/ that they use the same exact recipe for the frozen pizzas as they use in their eight pizzerias but that doesn't mean that they make them the same way. I haven't kept up with the goings on at HRI but my recollection is that things have changed a lot there, including going to a different flour and using dough presses, conveyors, etc. Do you have any knowledge of what HRI is now doing? And do you know if the frozen pizzas are parbaked before freezing? The HRI website gives ingredients lists and Nutrition Facts for their frozen pizzas but that might not help with cloning a fresh HRI pizza of if the Nutrition Facts are only for parbaked or partially baked pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on June 03, 2012, 07:55:28 PM
I have made this recipe a couple times from Loo and the 1st time i over cooked the bottom, the next times i readjusted oven position and i was very very happy with the HRI flavor of the crust and sauce loo gave recipes for.  i have only had HRI at their restaurants a few times, but i have had lots of their frozen,  and i love them all!  thanks Loo!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on June 04, 2012, 08:40:26 AM
Peter:

I have had it in the restaurant and frozen a zillion times, and FWIW, these products are very close to each other, as HRI claims.  Granted, I am not an expert like some of the more seasoned members here who remember sitting on Nick Perrino's knee while he made every pizza by hand  :D, so I can't say this recipe does or doesn't taste like HRI circa 1978 or whatever.  But if we are trying to clone what is sold today in the restaurants (and/or frozen), this recipe isn't it.  The frozen ones are definitely par-baked, since the cheese is already melted into a single mass.  Essentially, the frozen IS a clone of the fresh.  I don't know if the recipe is identical, but the flavor and texture is darn near identical.

I think flavor-wise, this forum recipe is sort of close.  HRI is yeastier, and there are always tweaks to be made on flavor.  But the biggest difference is that HRI is a flaky crust.  Dense, crunchy, and flaky.  Oddly enough, it takes some coaxing in the home oven for me to get it to come out this way, and I imagine others may want to try this.  If the box says to cook at 450 for 15-20 minutes, I cook it at 410 for 20-25 minutes, until the cheese is browned all over.  This gives the crust time to fully bake into its flaky goodness.  The keys: longer time & lower temp.

A few years ago, after HRI won some kind of "best of Chicago" award, I saw a video of a couple of HRI folks interviewed on Chicago local news.  Near the end of the segment, they talked about the frozen product.  One of the guys said folks could yet it sit out and thaw a bit before baking.  I tried that method and didn't like it as much as what I currently do.  However, that method is just another way to get the crust to come out right (IMO).

Don't know if any of this helps at all...

Cheers,
Garvey

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on June 04, 2012, 10:25:25 AM
Garvey,

Thanks for the feedback.

Do you know how the skins are formed in the HRI stores?

I took a look at the ingredients list and related Nutrition Facts as given for a basic (Classic) HRI cheese pizza, at http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/frozen-pizza/details?alias=classic-cheese. My memory is a bit hazy on this matter but I recall speaking to an HRI employee and telling him that I found what appeared to be a disconnect between the total weights given in the HRI Nutrition Facts and on the frozen pizza packaging materials. That caught him completely offguard (like they screwed things up) but he said that he would look into it. It looks like I was right. I see now that they corrected their weight information so that the information in the Nutrition Facts matches what they put as weights on their pizza boxes.

It would be interesting to know whether the HRI Nutrition Facts are for par-baked and frozen pizzas or just the pizzas before par-baking and freezing. Freezing pizzas shouldn't affect the Nutrition Facts but par-baking will. The problem with questions like this is that the companies don't usually have people who can answer such questions. Nutrition Facts are usually done by certified companies that specialize in that kind of work, or by using specialized software. The big chains, like Papa John's, use such software internally but smaller companies usually go outside to specialists. Sometime, just to satisfy my curiosity, I might take a look at the FDA regulations to see how it requires people to state Nutrition Facts for frozen items and maybe even par-baked items.

One of the interesting things I noticed in the HRI ingredients list for the Classic cheese pizza is that there is more yeast in their doughs than salt. High yeast levels and low salt levels may account for the yeasty taste that you mentioned because low salt levels usually allow the flavors of other ingredients to come through in a more pronounced and noticeable way. However, Chicago-style pizzas often are low in salt levels so the yeast levels may not be as great as one might imagine. I would have to look at Sodium levels and the Cholesterol levels (which only applies to the cheese, which is typically fairly high in Sodium) to get a better feels for possible total salt content. I also note that the HRI ingredients list for the Classic cheese pizza shows only "pasteurized part-skim milk" for the mozzarella cheese. My recollection is that at the time I worked on the HRI project HRI used three kinds of mozzarella cheeses for its pizzas. I don't know if that is true today but the expression "pasteurized part-skim milk" would appear to rule out whole-milk mozzarella cheese, and even whole-milk mozzarella cheese as part of a blend. Pasteurized part-skim milk has a specific meaning under FDA rules and regulations so I don't think that that expression encompasses something like scarmoza, although it could included smoked part-skim mozzarella cheese. Often when smoking imparts its own unique flavors, the ingredients lists note that there are "natural flavors". If I had to guess, and if HRI's ingredients lists are to be believed, I would say that HRI is using only regular part-skim mozzarella cheese.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on June 04, 2012, 10:33:47 AM
If you guys attempt to work up another HRI clone, I would happily help bake up any test formulations that might be required.   :chef:
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on June 04, 2012, 01:43:39 PM
Peter, you are the king of pizza sleuthing.  Really, hats off to you.  I remember that you also mentioned (or somebody did) how the yeast could be boosted since the high oil content inhibits yeast activity--i.e., get the yeast flavor without overproofing.  HRI uses a heated dough press to form the skins, right?  I'm sure that affects something or another.

All that being said, where this recipe misses the mark really comes down to the texture.  It's missing the flakiness.  HRI has a layered, flaky, dense, crispity crunchiness to it--like a cross between a cracker and a deep dish.  Maybe a longer knead, as Buttercat suggested.  And some laminating, too.  I dunno...
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on June 04, 2012, 03:33:15 PM
Garvey,

I don't know whether you are aware of it, but there is another HRI thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51517.html#msg51517, where a lot of the original research was discussed in detail. Unfortunately, several of the links in that thread are no longer active although in some cases I excerpted the material parts. No doubt there is a lot more new material that one would want to research in order to reverse engineer and clone the most recent iteration of the HRI dough/pizza.

As to your question about the dough press, yes, my recollection is that HRI uses hot dough presses, both in their stores and in the facility where the frozen pizzas are made. But maybe some of that has changed since I was last on the HRI project. Usually when I try to reverse engineer and clone someone else's pizza, I try to do it in the exact same way if possible. Of course, in a home setting I will never be able to replicate what a hot press does or even a commercial sheeter. That means I am unlikely to be able to capture some or many of the textural characteristics and features of the crust.

Today, after doing a search at the HRI website using their store locator, I learned that a Whole Foods about 16 miles from my home now sells the HRI frozen pizzas. To be sure, I called and spoke to one of the managers on the floor who told me that they started carrying the HRI pizzas about six months ago. Sometime when I am in the area, I plan to check out the HRI pizzas and buy a few just to see what all the commotion is about :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on June 04, 2012, 07:09:24 PM
Following my last post, I found an article published on August 8, 2011, at http://www.fesmag.com/features/chain-operations/5741-home-run-inn, that discusses how the pizzas are made in HRI's restaurants. I could not get the article to stay open for more than a few seconds so I used the Google cache feature and excerpted the pertinent part of the article, which pertains to the HRI Bollingbrook restaurant, as follows:

When food arrives at the Bolingbrook restaurant, for example, which was built in 2007, staff place it into a walk-in cooler. The restaurant receives shipments of products ódough, sauce, sausage, cheese ó three to four times a week from Home Run Inn's two USDA-approved manufacturing plants, which also serve as central kitchens. Salad and sandwich ingredients are purchased from other suppliers and are delivered to the restaurants regularly. The plant also produces pizza for the frozen-pizza distribution business. Costello claims that "Nielsen Co. data ranks us at a 25 percent market share, which places us as the number-one-selling frozen pizza in Chicago."

"By using the plants, we don't worry about maintenance of standards or consistency at the restaurants," Costello says. "It's a luxury for me to not worry about restaurants using the same procedures and ingredients, and it contributes to our success."

The reliance on the plants also keeps equipment costs down at individual restaurant locations, Costello adds. "For example, we don't need mixers and meat grinders."

When needed, staff take out the dough and, by hand, form it into dough balls. Staff place the balls into heavy plastic trays, which are color-coded by size for 8-inch, 12-inch, 14-inch and 16-inch pizzas. "The dough balls need 12 to 24 hours to relax under refrigeration. We warm them up to room temperature before we use them," Costello says. "Once you rip dough into dough balls, the proteins are like muscles, and they want to contract back. You must let the proteins relax."

This "fermentation" process for the dough is unique, Costello claims. "The unique flavor comes from the development of the yeast. It's a similar process when making bread or beer," he says. Staff return the dough to the cooler until needed. The next step in the process is placing the dough balls on Teflon sheets. Staff use an electromechanical dough press to form each ball into a round circle about ľ-inch thick. Staff next add a 3/8-inch-high edge by hand-stretching it into a crust that will hold ingredients and prevent spillage. They then transfer the expanded crust onto an anodized coated circular disk ó like a round cookie tray with holes in it ó to allow moisture and heat to penetrate the crust.

Crusts next move along pizza tables where staff dress them with sauce that is made for Home Run Inn by tomato canners in Modesto, Calif., as well as onions, cheese and a selection of about 18 other toppings. Staff use a raw sausage depositor to quickly place a portioned amount of this meat onto the crusts. "The use of raw sausage that is cooked on site imparts more flavor to the pie than a precooked product," Costello says.

Crusts then head into the conveyor oven, which is automatically set to cook pizzas for about 12 to 14 minutes at 425 degrees F. "We used to use deck ovens and had to keep an eye on the cooking," Costello says. "With the conveyors, we set the time and don't have to watch them cook. Pizzas come out perfectly each time."

The Bolingbrook location's equipment package includes three conveyor ovens. Soon after the workhorse conveyor ovens were introduced into the Home Run Inn restaurants, they were used for appetizers and garlic bread, as well. "The change from the rotary tray pizza oven to a conveyor oven was critical to Home Run Inn's consistency and efficiency," Perrino says. "Before using this equipment, customers had to wait an hour and a half for pizza. The conveyor ovens cut the wait to 20 minutes and results in greater profits." After pizzas are cooked, a staff member cuts it and places it onto a tray for service in the dining room or into a box for carryout.


I believe that the Modesto, CA supplier of tomatoes to HRI as mentioned in the above article may be Stanislaus, as is shown in this document: http://www.ctga.org/industry. Neither Escalon nor San Benito, both of which are the other major sources of fresh-pack tomatoes, has its offices in Modesto, although all three companies appear to have processing facilities in the San Joaquin Valley. At one time, it was said that HRI uses the Stanislaus Full Red tomatoes. ConAgra, through its Hunt's subsidiary, once had a tomato processing facility in Modesto (see Figure 3 at http://www.sjvcogs.org/pdfs/2012/Tomato021712.pdf) but it was sold to a company from Singapore (see http://www.centralcalifornia.org/PressRoom.aspx?NewsID=68). If HRI is using a non-fresh pack tomato product, it might be Hunt's, although I did not find such a connection from my searches. None of the HRI ingredients lists mention fresh-pack tomatoes, although the Margherita pizzas include vine-ripened (or vine-ripened fresh) tomatoes in their sauce.

There is also a fair amount of other interesting information about HRI in the fesmag.com article referenced above. I found the article by using the search string "Home Run Inn", "dough press" (as shown) in the Google search engine. I then used the cache version of the article when it would not open up properly.

For some basic information on dough presses, see the PMQ Think Tank thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=20461#20461 and also the Tom Lehmann article at http://pmq.com/mag/2002summer/doughformer.shtml. The high oil content of the HRI dough seems to make that dough a good candidate for a heated dough press. Also, see the last paragraph under Hot Pressed in the Lehmann article to read about the finished crust characteristics and other benefits to using a heated dough press.

For an interesting article on the HRI Woodridge frozen pizza facility, see http://www.bsimagazine.com/Features/Company%20Profiles/US%20Archive/At%20its%20new%20plant%20Home%20Run%20Inn%20makes%20frozen%20pizza%20the%20pizzaria%20way.aspx?p=1&cck=1.

Peter

EDIT (1/25/13): Since the above link to the Lehmann PMQ article is no longer operative, see the Wayback Machine link to the same article at http://web.archive.org/web/20100626072731/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2002summer/doughformer.shtml. See, also the YouTube video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsQCgtla79E&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on June 04, 2012, 10:29:19 PM
^^Peter,

that article is very informative - great work!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on June 05, 2012, 04:02:13 PM
Yes, great info!  I wonder how long their total ferment time is.  It sounds like the 12-24 hours is the time between delivery to each location and its usage.

This also shows that it's possible to make good pizza in a conveyor oven.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on June 05, 2012, 04:08:50 PM
Here is another article on the HRI frozen pizza operation: http://www.refrigeratedfrozenfood.com/Articles/Features/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000394878.

In this YouTube video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KrnK-TORnE, one can see how the old HRI skins were formed with what appears to be a sheeter/roller in the background (at around 1:55 in the video). Notice how the rim is "pinched". See, also, how a pizza is currently assembled on a perforated disk on a scale starting at about 3:05 in the video.

I also found the link (http://www.rachaelrayshow.com/show/segments/view/chicago-vs-new-york-pizza-throwdown/) to the Rachael Ray thowdown video where the HRI pizza was one of the candidates (the Chicago favorite). The way the HRI skin is formed is shown at 1:18 and at 1:27 in the video.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on February 03, 2013, 08:55:50 PM
I found an interesting article (May 2010, Snack Food & Wholesale Bakery) on how HRI makes its frozen pizzas, at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14. What I found interesting is that it appears that the oil is added to the flour, then the yeast and salt (nothing is said about when the water is added). For a very high production operation, I would imagine that the yeast is IDY.

Peter

EDIT (2/11/13): Found and replaced original article link with one directly from Snack Food & Wholesale Bakery magazine
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on February 03, 2013, 09:40:56 PM
I found an interesting article on how HRI makes its frozen pizzas, at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/iphone/?i=37488&p=30#_m0. What I found interesting is that it appears that the oil is added to the flour, then the yeast and salt (nothing is said about when the water is added). For a very high production operation, I would imagine that the yeast is IDY.

Peter
In house dough is also made with oil in flour first I would bet. Been doing that myself since learning it in the 70's. I believe it is what keeps the dough from being too bread like on these types of pizzas(affects fermentation).
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on February 03, 2013, 09:47:36 PM
In house dough is also made with oil in flour first I would bet. Been doing that myself since learning it in the 70's. I believe it is what keeps the dough from being too bread like on these types of pizzas(affects fermentation).
Bob,

HRI says that it tries to make its frozen pizzas like its restaurant pizzas as much as possible, so I would tend to agree with you that HRI most likely adds the oil to the flour for the restaurant dough. The main differences take place after the skins are formed and pre-baked, etc. for the frozen pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on February 04, 2013, 03:45:38 PM
Following my last post, I recalled that Tom Lehmann and member Randy talked about combining fat (solid or liquid) in with the flour in order to get a more flaky finished crust. Tom discusses this topic at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5726.msg201727.html#msg201727, and Randy discusses his method at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4360.msg36425/topicseen.html#msg36425 and at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11697.msg107955/topicseen.html#msg107955.

By way of summary of the evolution of the HRI pizzas, in the very beginning HRI used a dough sheeter or roller of some sort to form the skins, whereupon the workers formed rims for the skins by hand. The forming of the skin was done on a peel and, after dressing, the pizzas were baked in a deck oven. The basic skin forming steps can be seen starting at 1:50 at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KrnK-TORnE.

Later, when HRI went to conveyors, they started to use hot dough presses to press dough balls into skins with general rims (accompanied by some heating of the dough), and after better forming the rims by hand to the desired shape and height, they were dressed and baked in the conveyor ovens. In this instance, the formed skins were docked and placed on perforated seasoned or dark anodized disks before placement into the conveyor ovens. A current example of this version of the HRI pizza can be seen in the photo below. Note the irregularly shaped, hand formed rim.

In 1990, when HRI decided to go into the fullscale commercial production of frozen pizzas, with very high volumes, they apparently decided to stick with the use of the hot presses and other methods that they had developed for their restaurants although the rims of the skins were more uniform and of different shape than used in their restaurants. An example of a typical frozen HRI pizza after baking can be seen at http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-XGsKWDbKe0o/UBqKKzZbARI/AAAAAAAAAyI/FNd3mKlo6KI/s1600/012+-+Copy+(2).JPG. Note the uniform, machine-made rim.

I believe that for marketing and other reasons they decided that it was best to be able to tell everyone that their frozen pizzas were just like the ones in their restaurants. It is quite possible that the addition of the oil to the flour was a way of achieving some flakiness in the finished crust that was lost when they went from sheeters/rollers to dough presses which simply pressed the dough balls into skins.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on February 04, 2013, 10:27:08 PM
The dough/crust of their frozen pizza is pretty close(imo) to the restaurant....but it has been a long while since I've made it to 31st. Street. Being in NC now, buying a frozen one once in awhile delivers a fairly nice nostalgic trip.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on February 04, 2013, 11:50:21 PM
Made a couple this weekend, used loos recipe.  I havnt had a frozen HRI in years but this crust does hit the spot for me.  Did it on the perforated disc 475 one rack higher than center for 13 minutes. Sauce was puree, salt pepper basil.  Whole milk mozz with some provologne on the bottom and. Parmesean on top.  homeade sweet italian sausage.  And like loos says, its a great next day reheated  pizza for some reason!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on February 05, 2013, 09:04:26 AM
Boy, I like the looks of that Mojo. You nailed it...fine job!  :chef:
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on February 05, 2013, 09:29:45 AM
Terry,

That is a nice looking pizza.

Can you tell me what weight of dough you used, and how much cheese and sauce, also by weight, that you used?

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on February 05, 2013, 01:23:06 PM
Boy, I like the looks of that Mojo. You nailed it...fine job!  :chef:
Thanks so much Bob!  I still dont think they compete with those latest pies youve been making!!!!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on February 05, 2013, 01:38:51 PM
Terry,

Thata is a nice looking pizza.

Can you tell me what weight of dough you used, and how much cheese and sauce, also by weight, that you used?

Peter

I will have to check my calculator at home but heres the weights i used for 4 dough balls for 4 14 inch. pizzas.  This is Loos recipe!  Thank you Loo!!! You rock!!
>> 
>>1148g King Arthur AP Flour
>>476g Water
>>276g Corn Oil
>>20g ADY
>>20g Salt

Whole milk mozz was 16 oz precious brand.
The provologne was sargento thin sliced. I put the rounds directly on the sauce before the sausage and covered the whole pizza probably about 12-15 thin rounds.
The sauce was 2 i think 5 oz spoonfuls 10 oz total?

Next time i promise to be more exact in my measurements!!

Pete, thanks for all you do on this site you are a pizza treasure trove of knowledge!!!

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on February 08, 2013, 11:27:35 AM
It might be recalled that back in the other HRI thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51517.html#msg51517, there was considerable discussion on the cheeses that HRI was using for its pizzas. It was believed at the time, based on articles that had been written about HRI and also information that was provided to me by an employee at HRI, that HRI was using three forms of mozzarella cheese. We speculated that maybe two of the mozzarella cheeses were a low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese and a whole-milk mozzarella cheese and possibly the third cheese was smoked mozzarella or maybe even scamorza. Recently, as I was conducting further research on HRI, I came across a section of HRI's website that deals with Hot Lunches for schools. It has been my experience in the past that it is fruitful to research school lunch programs because schools require specific nutrition information. That information often provides leads on details of the products provided to the schools.

HRI's Hot Lunch program is described at its website at http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/hot-lunch-program/menu-and-nutritional-information. It will be noted that there are links to see the nutritional information for several of its pizzas sold to schools. For some reason, the only active links are the ones for the 12" sausage pizza at http://www.foxriverfoods.com/cfm/prodinfo.cfm?itemnumber=397543, the 6" cheese pizza at http://www.foxriverfoods.com/cfm/prodinfo.cfm?itemnumber=397546 and the 6" sausage pizza at http://www.foxriverfoods.com/cfm/prodinfo.cfm?itemnumber=397545. The links to the pepperoni pizzas are dead. I tried to find copies of the nutrition documents for the pepperoni pizzas at the Wayback Machine but they apparently are not archived there. However, I was able to find an archived copy of the nutrition document for the 12" cheese pizza, at http://www.foxriverfoods.com/cfm/prodinfo.cfm?itemnumber=397544.

If one looks at the description of the cheeses in the above documents, it appears that there are two mozzarella cheeses. They are described as follows: CHEESE:(LOW MOISTURE PASTEURIZED PART SKIM MILK, MOZZARELLA), PASTEURIZED PART SKIM MILK, CULTURES, SALT, ENZYMES. The differences between a generic low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese and a part-skim mozzarella cheese, apart from having different water contents (46.5% and 53.8%, respectively), can be seen at the NutritionData.self website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/28/2 and at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/27/2. I have no idea as to why HRI would be using two forms of part-skim mozzarella cheese. It is also not clear exactly what HRI may be selling to schools. Two of the photos shown in the above links are to the Classic HRI pizzas. However, if one looks at the cheese ingredients lists for the current HRI frozen pizzas, for example, the 12" cheese and sausage pizzas, at http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/frozen-pizza/details?alias=classic-cheese and at http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/frozen-pizza/details?alias=classic-sausage, the cheese is described as follows: Mozzarella Cheese: Pasteurized part-skim milk, cheese cultures, salt, enzymes. If, as HRI says at its website, it is making its frozen pizzas just like its pizzeria pizzas ("Home Run Inn frozen pizzas use the same, exact recipes that we use in our nine Chicagoland pizzerias. The same all-natural ingredients. The same homemade sauces and sausage. Not a single additive or preservative"), then that would suggest that HRI is using only one mozzarella cheese on its pizzas, as discussed above.

Offhand, I do not recall seeing a part-skim mozzarella cheese in the supermarkets near me, only the low-moisture version. So, the low-moisture version is what most members may have to use on their HRI clones.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on February 08, 2013, 12:01:01 PM
I should have mentioned in my last post that the four pizzas referenced in that post were all in the 2007-2008 timeframe, at least according to the Wayback Machine, which is about the time period that loo (loowaters) became interested in cloning the HRI pizzas. Also, the information on the four pizzas is from Fox River Foods, which apparently is HRI's foodservice company. As can be seen at http://www.foxriverfoods.com/, Fox River is about to be acquired by the Performance Food Group, which is a giant in the foodservice industry.

Another difference that I noted in looking at the nutrition information for the four pizzas and the current HRI frozen pizzas, is that the current HRI frozen pizzas have more oregano than the prior versions.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on February 08, 2013, 12:31:40 PM
Peter,
I believe I have purchased a l/m p/s cheese in the grocery store made by Sorrento....not to be confused with Sargento.  :)  (Bob don't like Sargento cheeses)
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on February 08, 2013, 12:40:50 PM
Peter,
I believe I have purchased a l/m p/s cheese in the grocery store made by Sorrento....not to be confused with Sargento.  :)  (Bob don't like Sargento cheeses)

Bob,

I was referring to just a part-skim mozzarella cheese, not the low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese, of which there are many brands sold in supermarkets. I will have to start paying attention more closely when I check out cheese sections in the supermarkets near me to see if maybe I missed seeing a part-skim mozzarella cheese with a lower moisture content.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on February 22, 2013, 04:49:58 PM
A while back, I sent an email to Home Run Inn in which I asked if the flour used to make their pizzas was bromated. The answer came today. The flour is not bromated. Since HRI prides itself in not using any preservatives or additives (see the related comment at http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/), I would imagine that the flour is also not bleached. Ruling out bromates and bleaching agents rules out a lot of professional flours for the HRI pizzas. But there are still a lot of professional flours that HRI can use.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 04, 2013, 08:09:33 PM
Home Run Inn Pizza posted this picture today on facebook.  This is what it said.

Home Run Inn Pizza added a milestone from 1947 to their timeline:31st Street kitchen circa 1947

Here is a look at what our kitchen looked like in 1947! Nowadays, our kitchen looks a little different, but we use the same recipe we did way back then! ó at Home Run Inn, 31st Street.

Some of the commenterís posts were interesting, although I never tried a HRI pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 04, 2013, 08:46:55 PM
Even the frozen grocery store ones are not too bad at all Norma...I think you would like it, very different unusual crust.
I have one every few months to satisfy a back home craving.  :)
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 04, 2013, 09:12:06 PM
Even the frozen grocery store ones are not too bad at all Norma...I think you would like it, very different unusual crust.
I have one every few months to satisfy a back home craving.  :)

Bob,

I looked and think the nearest supermarket to me that sells HRI frozen pizzas is in Maryland.  I would have liked to try one. 

The very different unusual crust sounds interesting. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 04, 2013, 09:16:01 PM
HRI uses the same photo on its menus: http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/website/documents/menus/HRI_TakeOutMenu_2012_Archer.pdf.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 04, 2013, 09:55:44 PM
HRI uses the same photo on its menus: http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/website/documents/menus/HRI_TakeOutMenu_2012_Archer.pdf.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for posting that HRI uses the same photo on its menus.  Someday I might try to make a HRI pizza.  I would like to try every type of pizza on the forum if I find the time.  If I ever find myself in Maryland if will purchase a HRI frozen pizza to see why it is so different. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 04, 2013, 10:01:21 PM
Norma,
HRI is sold in some Walmarts...I just checked the store in Lancaster and it was not carried at that store.  >:(
FWIW, I have made their crust at home and it is easy....turns out real authentic too. Good luck should you ever decide to give it a go.... :chef:

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 04, 2013, 10:27:27 PM
Norma,
HRI is sold in some Walmarts...I just checked the store in Lancaster and it was not carried at that store.  >:(
FWIW, I have made their crust at home and it is easy....turns out real authentic too. Good luck should you ever decide to give it a go.... :chef:

Bob

Bob,

Thanks for checking at the Walmart in Lancaster.  Interesting that you have made the crust at home and it was easy and authentic.  I might give a HRI pizza a try someday.  I have to read the threads.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 04, 2013, 11:00:17 PM
Norma,
HRI is sold in some Walmarts...I just checked the store in Lancaster and it was not carried at that store.  >:(
FWIW, I have made their crust at home and it is easy....turns out real authentic too. Good luck should you ever decide to give it a go.... :chef:

Bob

Can you give a link to the thread for the easy, authentic dough you made?  Or share a formulation?
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 04, 2013, 11:05:51 PM
Can you give a link to the thread for the easy, authentic dough you made?  Or share a formulation?
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.0.html
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 04, 2013, 11:07:04 PM
Oh sorry, I didn't realize you had made the dough in this thread.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 04, 2013, 11:20:41 PM
Oh sorry, I didn't realize you had made the dough in this thread.
Yes, I made my first one probably about 3 years ago. I'm a big fan of Loo Waters and always found his directions to be very helpful..and he encourages tweaking.  :)
This dough works great at home but it does require playing around with the oil level a bit to get it where ya want it.  :chef:

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 05, 2013, 08:59:25 AM
FWIW, I have made their crust at home and it is easy....turns out real authentic too.

Respectfully--but strongly--I could not disagree more.  The recipe in this thread is absolutely nothing like HRI at all. 

FWIW, I'd take the frozen version any day over the supposed "clone" recipe.  It is not just the flavor but the entire texture and other characteristics that are simply not there.  Given a blind taste test, I wouldn't even think, "Hmmm, I see what you're going for--Home Run Inn?"  It is really that far off the mark, despite the raves in this thread.

Obviously, YMMV...

Garvey
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 05, 2013, 10:15:08 AM
Respectfully--but strongly--I could not disagree more.  The recipe in this thread is absolutely nothing like HRI at all. 

FWIW, I'd take the frozen version any day over the supposed "clone" recipe.  It is not just the flavor but the entire texture and other characteristics that are simply not there.  Given a blind taste test, I wouldn't even think, "Hmmm, I see what you're going for--Home Run Inn?"  It is really that far off the mark, despite the raves in this thread.

Obviously, YMMV...

Garvey
Garvey,

I have spent considerable time studying the HRI pizzas and methods over the past couple months, including what was done in the early days of HRI, what it now does in its stores, and what it has been doing in its frozen pizza operation, and I think that you may be right. Unfortunately, from the reverse engineering and cloning standpoint, I have been forced to limit myself to what HRI had been doing with its frozen pizzas because the only nutrition information that is available on their pizzas is the Nutrition Facts for their frozen pizzas. I even found what I believe to be a major error in the HRI Nutrition Facts that cannot be explained based on what I know about pizza and ingredients. The "error", if that is what it is, also falls outside of the FDA's 20% rule. I have called HRI on this matter, and even told them where to look for the answer, and was told that they would look into it. If I am right, technically they should correct their Nutrition Facts because the error is in an area that nutritionists and other health professionals have indicated to be an important one from a nutrition standpoint. I am not holding my breath that they will get back to me even though I asked them to do so. If I am wrong, I want to know where and why.

I have been studying mainly the HRI frozen cheese, pepperoni and sausage pizzas because there are similarities as well as differences that shed light on what they are doing. I have concluded that while the dough formulations that have been discussed in this thread, and in the companion thread, may lead to crusts that have a flavor that is similar to an HRI crust, I believe the weights are off, at least for the crusts. While I haven't studied each and every dough formulation, I think that the dough ball weights have been too high for the most part, and that can lead to the crust textures being off. There is also the matter of being able to simulate the HRI crust (the frozen version) when using a home oven where it may be necessary to use a screen or a dark anodized perforated disk (as used in the HRI stores) as opposed to a conveyor oven as used by HRI where the skins are processed "naked" (i.e., without disks or other carriers), docked, pre-baked, dressed and then baked further (but not 100%) before freezing. There may also be some issues related to how to achieve the flakiness of an HRI crust using standard home stand mixers or even food processors. We also can't simulate hot dough presses that HRI uses in its stores and in its frozen pizza operation. But I do not deem these issues to be insurmountable. I think it is possible to come quite close, and in some cases to better the frozen HRI pizzas and come closer to the store versions.

If you hadn't been so vocal and outspoken on this subject, I perhaps wouldn't have decided to take it up again. However, I think I know more about what I am doing now as compared with what I knew and did when loo (loowaters) started the original HRI thread.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 05, 2013, 10:21:33 AM
I did try Loo's formulation afew times in 2011 (I posted some results on page 9 of this thread), but I couldn't compare it to the real thing as I've never had HRI before, and the frozen ones weren't available in Canada.  I just realized I can buy them here in Arizona though, so I will be off to buy a couple tonight!  I'm really looking forward to it.  I didn't realize that they par cooked the whole pizza... That's what the mom n' pops did back home in minneapolis!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 05, 2013, 11:21:32 AM
If you hadn't been so vocal and outspoken on this subject, I perhaps wouldn't have decided to take it up again. However, I think I know more about what I am doing now as compared with what I knew and did when loo (loowaters) started the original HRI thread.

Thanks for the feedback, Peter, and your hard work on this.

I have to say, among the many forums I've frequented over the years, this one is the most collegial and supportive of them all.  The downside of that is a hesitation to (constructively) criticize recipes, especially when they come from a longtime, beloved member (e.g., in this case, Loo).  We are, after all, talking about the recipe and not about the person, but you still wanna "play nice."  So if I have been too strident, Loo or anyone else, I apologize for coming off that way.

So I guess the questions remain, as you pointed out, Peter--how do we achieve these texture and taste benchmarks in a home environment?  As a side note, it's interesting that the chains are the hardest to nail down (e.g., besides HRI, Aurelio's has not been cloned properly yet, and Giordano's and Malnati's took herculean efforts and many trials from many people, etc.).  But I guess that isn't all that surprising.  Chains do things on a scale that we don't or can't, necessarily, in the home environment, whereas the mom-n-pops shops are more like an outgrowth of the home environment to begin with.

Cheers,
Garvey
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 05, 2013, 12:48:03 PM
Garvey,
To be honest, it has been a long time since I've made one of these and I don't remember what changes I made. I do remember though that I was able to come very close.

You've sparked my curiosity now and believe I will revisit the HRI clone sometime during the next few days. Will post up results.

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 05, 2013, 12:56:32 PM
Garvey,

You can get a pretty good idea as to how HRI makes its frozen pizzas from the article that I previously referenced at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14. In that article, it says that the oil is added to the flour, and then the yeast and salt. The article is silent as to when the water is added. However, Tom Lehmann, who once did some consulting work for HRI for its frozen pizza operation (I remember seeing his name in one of the early articles on HRI's frozen pizza operation), says that the conventional method is to add the oil right after the water has been added to the mixer bowl so that you don't end up with clumps of oiled flour. It sounds like high-speed mixers are used to make the HRI kind of dough so in a home setting it might make sense to use a food processor or maybe a stand mixer with the whisk attachment used intially to blend the oil and flour together more uniformly.

The duration of fermentation of the dough can also affect the texture of the finished crust. I have read that HRI has used 12-18 hours of cold fermentation (see the article at Reply 188 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190395.html#msg190395) and up to 2 to 3 days (see the YouTube video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsQCgtla79E&feature=youtu.be). Getting a good rise in the dough isn't as important as with other doughs since the HRI dough balls are formed into skins using hot presses that impart tremendous force on the dough balls and skins that forces out a lot of the gases while partially heating the skin. Also, the large amount of oil in the dough, even with a lot of yeast, will keep the dough from going wild and rising excessively during the period of cold fermentation. In a home setting, it should be OK to use a rolling pin to form the skins, although it should also be possible to form the skins by hand.

The other thing that is important is to get a rim that is upstanding. To a degree, that is a function of the combination of the amounts of oil and water in the dough. They have to be just right to permit the rim to stand upright for pretty much the full time--during forming, dressing and baking. A good view of such a rim can be seen in Reply 195 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg235707.html#msg235707. That photo is for a store-made HRI pizza, using a perforated dark anodized disk, which is something that is also a good option for a home oven. You won't get a rim like shown in Reply 195 in a frozen HRI pizza. The rim of a frozen HRI pizza will be rounded, and made without human intervention. Once a proper upstanding rim is made, there is a better likelihood that the texture of the finished crust will be what you want in an HRI type of crust. If HRI's Nutrition Facts are correct, I think there is less oil that what the members have been using in this thread, so that can make it a bit easier to form a rim that properly stands upright. Getting the hydration right is a challenge because there is water loss during baking, and it is very difficult to apportion the total loss among the dough, the sauce and the cheese (and sausage, if used, and pepperoni to a much smaller degree if it is used).

I will be interested in getting any feedback from CDNpielover should he decide to try out some of the HRI frozen pizzas. One of the things he is likely to note is that the 12" frozen HRI pizzas are closer to 11 1/2" than 12". I also believe that the HRI frozen cheese pizzas and the pepperoni cheeses have the same amount of cheese but that the frozen HRI sausage pizza has less cheese than the other pizzas because the weight of the sausage is considerably more than the weight of pepperoni slices. So, to offset the added weight of the sausage, I believe they cut back on the amount of cheese for the sausage pizza. It is also possible that the weights of the HRI frozen pizzas are more than the boxes indicate. It is common practice in the frozen pizza business to make the frozen pizzas weigh more than stated on the packaging materials. The last thing they want is to have consumers protesting that they got pizzas that weighed less than was stated.

I can understand that people would like to be able to make a credible HRI clone at home. As one can see in a typical HRI menu, http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/website/documents/menus/HRI%20TakeOutMenu_2012_lowres.pdf, a 12" cheese pizza costs $14.80, and goes to $16.50 if a topping, like pepperoni or sausage, for example, is added. I don't know if a store-bought HRI pizza weighs more that one of their frozen counterparts, but I estimated that the costs (at my level) for a basic HRI clone cheese pizza is around $4. HRI uses a "natural" pepperoni that will be hard to find at retail so finding such a pepperoni is likely to increase the at-home cost of an HRI clone pepperoni pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 05, 2013, 12:58:38 PM
To be honest, it has been a long time since I've made one of these and I don't remember what changes I made. I do remember though that I was able to come very close.

You've sparked my curiosity now and believe I will revisit the HRI clone sometime during the next few days. Will post up results.

Bob,

If you don't mind, I'd be interested in the weights of dough, sauce, cheese and any toppings that you end up using.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 05, 2013, 01:03:39 PM
Bob,

If you don't mind, I'd be interested in the weights of dough, sauce, cheese and any toppings that you end up using.

Peter
Yes, of course..will make sure to take those measurements for you.
Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 05, 2013, 01:06:55 PM
I will be interested in getting any feedback from CDNpielover should he decide to try out some of the HRI frozen pizzas. One of the things he is likely to note is that the 12" frozen HRI pizzas are closer to 11 1/2" than 12". I also believe that the HRI frozen cheese pizzas and the pepperoni cheeses have the same amount of cheese but that the frozen HRI sausage pizza has less cheese than the other pizzas because the weight of the sausage is considerably more than the weight of pepperoni slices. So, to offset the added weight of the sausage, I believe they cut back on the amount of cheese for the sausage pizza. It is also possible that the weights of the HRI frozen pizzas are more than the boxes indicate. It is common practice in the frozen pizza business to make the frozen pizzas weigh more than stated on the packaging materials. The last thing they want is to have consumers protesting that they got pizzas that weighed less than was stated.

I don't know if a store-bought HRI pizza weighs more that one of their frozen counterparts, but I estimated that the costs (at my level) for a basic HRI clone cheese pizza is around $4. HRI uses a "natural" pepperoni that will be hard to find at retail so finding such a pepperoni is likely to increase the at-home cost of an HRI clone pepperoni pizza.

Peter,

I will definitely report back my thoughts on the frozen HRI.  I'm not sure what types my local Albertson's carries, but I will get a plain cheese if they have it.  I can measure the diameter... would the mass be useful, considering it has been parcooked (with some water loss)?  I do have access to good balances at work, and I wouldn't mind sacrificing a pizza to get some useful numbers.  Would it help if I thawed and dissected the pizza to estimate dough and cheese weights (I can try and wipe off the sauce).
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 05, 2013, 02:00:16 PM
Peter,

I will definitely report back my thoughts on the frozen HRI.  I'm not sure what types my local Albertson's carries, but I will get a plain cheese if they have it.  I can measure the diameter... would the mass be useful, considering it has been parcooked (with some water loss)?  I do have access to good balances at work, and I wouldn't mind sacrificing a pizza to get some useful numbers.  Would it help if I thawed and dissected the pizza to estimate dough and cheese weights (I can try and wipe off the sauce).
CDNpielover,

Yes, it would help if you are able to dismember the pizza into its component parts and note the weights of those parts. Having done this with a frozen HRI sausage pizza recently, I can tell you that you wont have to sacrifice your pizza to the gods.

What I did was to let the frozen sausage pizza sit at room temperature so that it could defrost. I found that it was best not to let the pizza defrost too much so that the sauce would stick to the cheese. I started by carefully removing the pieces of sausage off of the pizza, being careful as not to also remove part of the sauce underlying the sausage pieces. Then I gradually "peeled" sections of the cheese from the pizza, starting from the outer edges and proceeding to the center of the pizza, where the pizza was defrosting more slowly. I was careful as not to remove too much of the sauce along with the cheese, although I found that a very small, inconsequential amount of the sauce would stick to the cheese and was too little to worry about. HRI uses a coarsely diced mozzarella cheese, with dice of varying shapes and sizes, but basically rectangular shaped. I used the tip of a sharp knife to lift off every dice of cheese that I could. When the sausage pieces and the cheese were removed from the pizza, I then carefully scraped the sauce into a pile. I was careful as not to also scrape part of the crust along with the sauce. As a final step, I used a pastry brush to clean the top of the crust as best I could. Then I weighed each of the component parts.

Once I was out of surgery and removed my surgical gown and mask and set my scalpel aside, I reassembled the pizza and baked it. I spread the sauce over the crust, added the pieces of cheese so as to cover the entire pizza as uniformly as possible and then distributed the sausage pizzas over the pizza, pressing the sausage pieces into the cheese in the same manner as they were originally implanted (but more uniformly across the pizza rather than random). I then baked the reassembled pizza. It was none the worse for wear. It came out fine. I did weigh the reassembled pizza so that I could compare that weight against the weight of the final baked pizza. I used a perforated dark anodized disk as the carrier for the pizza, and baked the pizza on the middle oven rack position at about 475 degrees F. I may have baked the pizza a bit too long, so you may want to bake your pizza only until the crust, both at the rim and on the bottom, are only lightly browned.

I think you will be somewhat surprised with what you find, perhaps even more so with a cheese pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 05, 2013, 02:14:04 PM
CDNpielover,
Now this is just my opinion but if you can also get a HRI cheese and sausage pizza you should definitely try the taste of one. They use a sausage that is very unusual and quite distinct from traditional raw Chicago fennel type sausage. To me, their sausage is a major contributor to experiencing a genuine Home Run Inn pizza...just a thought. Oh, and around here they sell mini(6in. maybe?) frozen pies in several different topping selections.

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 05, 2013, 09:03:48 PM
I just grabbed an uncured pepperoni frozen HRI pizza.  They carry cheese, pepperoni, and meat lovers (no sausage, which is unfortunate as I was planning to try that too).  I ended up getting a pepperoni, as it seemed like it wouldn't be too difficult to peel off the meat from the cheese.

Pete, since you have already weighed the components of a frozen HRI, would my numbers even be useful?  I don't mind doing it if they will be of some use, but I don't want to do it just as an exercise because I'll likely have to sacrifice a pizza to get the numbers (either by having to break it up to mass it on my small "drug dealer" scale, or by having to do it at work after which is more inconvenient and after which i'll probably just throw it away).  I can definitely get some masses, but I only want to do that if they are needed for something.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 05, 2013, 09:19:33 PM
CDNpielover,

The benefit of having a second set of data would be to confirm my numbers. However, since I have one more sausage puzza left, I can use that pizza to conduct further measurements.

Thanks anyway.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 05, 2013, 09:25:22 PM
Peter, you mentioned that they may put less cheese on a sausage than a pepperoni or cheese.  would it be useful to have weights from a pepperoni to check this hypothesis?
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 05, 2013, 09:43:47 PM
Peter, you mentioned that they may put less cheese on a sausage than a pepperoni or cheese.  would it be useful to have weights from a pepperoni to check this hypothesis?
CDNpielover,

I ran a similar experiment dissecting an HRI pepperoni pizza and it clearly had more cheese on it than the HRI sausage pizza. That prompted me to study the Nutrition Facts more carefully to see if they confirmed what I found from my tests. However, since I don't know the composition of the HRI sausage, I couldn't be completely sure of my analysis.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 06, 2013, 12:20:05 AM
I may be off, but this recipe always hits an HRI taste for me! I am excited about trying another recipe though!   it will be good to compare.   I only ate at HRI a few times most of my experience has been with frozen 6inch ones that I used ro microwave! as a teen, and I still loved them! 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 06, 2013, 12:22:48 AM
maybe its the gumlayer I get with this recipe...hmmmmm.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 06, 2013, 12:22:52 AM
I may be off, but this recipe always hits an HRI taste for me! I am excited about trying another recipe though!   it will be good to compare.   I only ate at HRI a few times most of my experience has been with frozen 6inch ones that I used ro microwave! as a teen, and I still loved them! 
Right on Mr. Mo!  8)
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 06, 2013, 12:24:47 AM
maybe its the gumlayer I get with this recipe...hmmmmm.
Believe me....I've seen even on 31st. Street.... :o
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 06, 2013, 12:31:54 AM
ya know what I mean? the sauce and the crust make a good gooey gum layer but it doesn't soak all the way through.   theres still a crunch. that density is what I remember.  I need to get back to Chicago and do the real deal! real soon! man I am now hungry!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 06, 2013, 12:36:17 AM
Yeah...it's dense alright... ;)    :-D
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 07, 2013, 02:26:07 PM
Bob,

If you don't mind, I'd be interested in the weights of dough, sauce, cheese and any toppings that you end up using.

Peter
I made a "fast" one last night and believe the flavor really suffered because of this. Start to finish was only about 4 hrs.The texture was right there though and I was pleased to see the dough almost double after only aprox. 1 1/2 hrs. No gum layer what so ever, good dense biscuity tender crunch(if you will)..just really lacking in flavor. But I've got some plans for that.  ;)

Here is Loos "emergency" formula          And here is what I did
100% AP Flour                                   100% AP Flour
42 Water                                           45 Water
24 Corn Oil                                         24 Corn Oil
1.75 ADY                                           2 IDY
1.75 Salt                                           .50 Salt
Thickness Factor = .111                        TF .130  

10.21 oz. dough into a 10in. cutter pan. Baked @450 aprox. 18 min.

Here are the ingredient amounts that seemed to work out well and I will probably stay with...

10in. pan
Dough  10oz.
Sauce  5oz.
Cheese 7oz.
Sausage 4oz.

Next one is going to ferment some so I'll be back in a day or so....I'll post pics of that. This one looked a bit strange from a mozz, asiago, and too much Scarmorza blend I did.

Any comments,questions, suggestions....I'm all ears.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 07, 2013, 06:15:46 PM
Pix or it didn't happen.   ;D
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 07, 2013, 07:03:43 PM
Pix or it didn't happen.   ;D
OK man...but you really should be careful with what you ask for. She was not a pretty site dude!  ;D
I think my heavy hand with the "last topping" oregano shake had something to do with the grey look also besides the weird cheese blend...oh well.  :-[

edit: pic #4 looks pretty good though I guess, you can see the crumb action.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 07, 2013, 07:23:48 PM
Any comments,questions, suggestions....I'm all ears.
Bob,

I commend you for a job well done, even without seeing any photos!!

Based on everything that I know about HRI pizzas and all of the analysis I have done with the HRI Nutrition Facts for frozen pizzas (the only data I have), I believe that you have come very close to emulating the HRI sausage pizza, even if there were some mishaps. I am very impressed.

You threw me a curve ball by making a 10" pizza rather than a 12" pizza, which is the size of a frozen HRI sausage pizza (it is actually a 11 1/2" pizza), but I worked down my numbers from the 12" size to the 10" size, and I believe that your numbers are quite good. The thickness factor is very similar to what I calculated, and should give you the crust thickness of an HRI pizza, and the amounts of cheese and sausage are very much in line with my numbers. I think your sauce quantity may be a bit high, but I don't have a good feel on that at this point because most tomato sauces constitute about 88-90% water, yet not all of the water in a sauce is given up during baking. I still have some testing to do on this, so maybe I will have a better feel on how the sauce behaves during baking after I have finished my tests.

I definitely think your salt level is too low. Most of the sodium in an HRI pizza is in the mozzarella cheese and to a much lesser degree in the sauce (and, in your case, the sausage). I studied the sodium levels of four different Stanislaus and Escalon products and their sodium levels did not change the total sodium numbers much. I suggest that you use 2% salt. That is a level that I tried based on my analysis of the HRI Nutrition Facts, and when I did a side-by-side test with a real HRI pizza, I could not detect any difference in salt levels. From a salt standpoint, the two crusts were indistinguishable. Even the crusts were very similar, which was perhaps due to having the right thickness factor, as well as the proper amount of corn oil.

I think you can also increase the amount of yeast. That, along with using more salt, should give you more crust flavor. Using up to three days of cold fermentation should also help on the crust flavor front.

Although the FDA gives companies a lot of latitude on the Nutrition Facts, which I call the 20% rule, I feel that the mozzarella cheese that seems to most closely fit the HRI Nutrition Facts, especially when combined with the corn oil, both of which are part of the Total Fat and Sat Fat numbers in the HRI Nutrition Facts, is a low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese with the following profile: Serving size: 28-30 grams; Total Fat: 6 grams; Sat Fat: 3.5 grams; Cholesterol: 15mg; and Protein: 7-8 grams. The Sodium numbers vary from brand to brand, but there are countless low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheeses that fit the above profile, both national brands like Precious (the brand I found at my local supermarket), Frigo, Dragone or Stella, as well as many supermarket brands, like Kroger.

HRI makes a point of telling everyone that it uses a heavy puree to make its pizza sauce. My research shows that it is probably using a Stanislaus puree product. So, that would be a good choice. I do not have access to any Stanislaus puree product so my thought was to use the Classico puree as sold at many Wal-Marts. Unfortunately, my local Wal-Mart does not carry that particular Classico product. I ended up using a Cento puree but it was not as sweet as the fresh-pack tomatoes.

If you tweak your formulation along the lines discussed above, I think you can come quite close to the HRI frozen pizzas. The main challenge will be to get the flakiness of an HRI crust, and determining how to prepare the skins and bake the pizzas. I used a rolling pin to roll out the skin, even though I could have formed the skin by hand, and I docked the skin, just as HRI does. I used both a perforated disk and a perforated cutter pan (dark anodized). They both work quite well although at some point I may try using a pizza screen just to see if that is a better option. In my tests, I could not detect a material difference between my crusts and the HRI crusts. I even cut the pizzas into small pieces, closed my eyes, moved the pieces around, and then ate them, also while my eyes were closed. I couldn't tell which was which. Maybe I am not skilled enough or have a lousy taste palate, but I honestly couldn't detect a difference. Even the final pizza weights after baking were very close. The HRI pizza after baking was 756 grams. My clone pizza weighed 760 grams. Everything was based on my calculations but maybe luck was also a factor.

I look forward to your results with the dough that you have in the refrigerator.

Peter

 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 07, 2013, 08:02:17 PM
Peter,
Thanks for the compliment and, most importantly, your observations/suggestions.
Now, here's the deal with that pizza...

I remembered reading somewhere that trying less salt in this HRI dough might give a more pronounced "yeasty" flavor...and given the fact that I intended to use 3oz. of Scamorza(quite salty cheese) along with 2oz each of WM mozz and a dry Asiago and my "emergency" timing...I thought I could maybe cheat the dough into giving up more than it was(ultimately) capable of. And the cheeses saltynes would make up for flavor. I am now wondering if a longer ferment might provide the correct/anticipated "yeasty" results while maintaining the current relatively low salt level in my dough formula(.50).

Also,about the sauce. I understand that my sauce amount may seem high...I cheated on this last minute pie and used my Classico ground product that is always in my frig. Their ground sauce weighs more than their crushed(I believe) and I would assume that both,individually, weigh more than if one used the (proper) tomato puree product that belongs on this type of pizza. My next one will have puree. Note: I am weighing the sauce amounts so my amount here may actually be more in line with what you are experiencing with the data info.

Lastly, you may want to try Contadina paste with water...I like the puree it makes.

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 07, 2013, 08:46:40 PM
OK man...but you really should be careful with what you ask for. She was not a pretty site dude!  ;D
I think my heavy hand with the "last topping" oregano shake had something to do with the grey look also besides the weird cheese blend...oh well.  :-[

edit: pic #4 looks pretty good though I guess, you can see the crumb action.

Bob,

Thanks for posting the pictures.  Your HRI clone attempt looks very pleasing to my eyes.   ;) How did you bake that pizza?  How would describe the crust texture when eaten and what texture does a real HRI pizza have?

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 07, 2013, 09:17:04 PM
Bob,

Thanks for posting the pictures.  Your HRI clone attempt looks very pleasing to my eyes.   ;) How did you bake that pizza?  How would describe the crust texture when eaten and what texture does a real HRI pizza have?

Norma
Thank you Norma,
 I think your Mom's oven is the same as mine if I remember. Anyway, it was in a cutter pan 450 degrees aprox. 18mins.
Texture is hard to describe.. try to imagine a graham cracker that is hot but maybe just a little denser and a bit more oil in it yet still has some crunch to it. Sorry, but that's the best I can do Norma.  :(

I still have your address and while it's still cold out here in our little slice of the world I would gladly send you a small HRI frozen...my treat. Just check out the website and let me know what flavor you'd like to try. It's a fun pizza to eat and their sausage is really interesting. Definetly a once in a while special treat 'cause this baby is real rich.  :o Jus PM me with your selection...it's time you tried this!  :)

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 07, 2013, 09:47:25 PM
Thank you Norma,
 I think your Mom's oven is the same as mine if I remember. Anyway, it was in a cutter pan 450 degrees aprox. 18mins.
Texture is hard to describe.. try to imagine a graham cracker that is hot but maybe just a little denser and a bit more oil in it yet still has some crunch to it. Sorry, but that's the best I can do Norma.  :(

I still have your address and while it's still cold out here in our little slice of the world I would gladly send you a small HRI frozen...my treat. Just check out the website and let me know what flavor you'd like to try. It's a fun pizza to eat and their sausage is really interesting. Definetly a once in a while special treat 'cause this baby is real rich.  :o Jus PM me with your selection...it's time you tried this!  :)

Bob

Bob,

My mom has a propane gas oven.  Is that the kind you have?  Thanks for telling me how many minutes you baked for at what temperature.  

I have a cutter pan at market.  I appreciate you explaining to me what you think the texture is like.  

I also appreciate it very much that you would be willing to send me a small HRI frozen pizza.  :-* I donít know how cold it is in your area, but it is supposed to be going into the 50ís in the next few days in my area.  I am not sure how a frozen pizza would ship in that kind of temperature, especially if meat were added.  I sure would like to try a HRI frozen pizza though.   Thanks so much for your kind offer of a treat for me!

I might try a HRI clone either at my home, or at my momís home this weekend, but donít bet on it.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 07, 2013, 10:16:15 PM
Bob,

My mom has a propane gas oven.  Is that the kind you have?  Thanks for telling me how many minutes you baked for at what temperature.  

I have a cutter pan at market.  I appreciate you explaining to me what you think the texture is like.  

I also appreciate it very much that you would be willing to send me a small HRI frozen pizza.  :-* I donít know how cold it is in your area, but it is supposed to be going into the 50ís in the next few days in my area.  I am not sure how a frozen pizza would ship in that kind of temperature, especially if meat were added.  I sure would like to try a HRI frozen pizza though.   Thanks so much for your kind offer of a treat for me!

I might try a HRI clone either at my home, or at my momís home this weekend, but donít bet on it.  :-D

Norma
Norma,

Yes, your Mom and I have the same oven dealeo...I knew I remembered it from some other bake situation we once talked about.
I'm just a little South of you...was in the 40's today.
Don't sweat the small stuff Norma...maybe you forgot that I recently told you about a "new and improved" shipping method I figured out.  ;)   Now you jus step aside and Bob will handle this little lady... :-D
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 07, 2013, 10:43:27 PM
Norma,

Yes, your Mom and I have the same oven dealeo...I knew I remembered it from some other bake situation we once talked about.
I'm just a little South of you...was in the 40's today.
Don't sweat the small stuff Norma...maybe you forgot that I recently told you about a "new and improved" shipping method I figured out.  ;)   Now you jus step aside and Bob will handle this little lady... :-D

Bob,

Your memory was quite good in recalling about my momís oven.  ;D

I recall you posted that you recently told me about a ďnew and improvedĒ  shipping method you figured out.  8) If you decide to send me a frozen HRI pizza you pick what kind.  I like to be surprised.  You are a sweetheart for offering to send one to me, but donít feel you have to do that. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 07, 2013, 10:52:11 PM
woah! that looks pretty awesome to me.   Great job Bob!  cant wait to hear and see the next one!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 07, 2013, 10:54:09 PM
I'm liking the looks of that cheese blend too!  dang!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 07, 2013, 11:13:47 PM
woah! that looks pretty awesome to me.   Great job Bob!  cant wait to hear and see the next one!!
Thank you Terry...but you are much too gracious.  :angel:
I have another batter on deck and hope that this next hitter has the stuff to hit a Home Run!  >:D

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 08, 2013, 12:06:21 AM
Hey Bob!! you got some nice leoparding going on too.  those are some dark spots!  looks tasty!!! and yet still flowing cheese elsewhere!  hmmmm.  i need to change somthin!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 08, 2013, 08:52:46 AM
Thanks for posting the pictures.  Your HRI clone attempt looks very pleasing to my eyes.   ;) How did you bake that pizza?  How would describe the crust texture when eaten and what texture does a real HRI pizza have?
Norma,

I recall asking Loo the same types of questions long ago when we first started to work on an HRI clone. You can read his response at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51557.html#msg51557. I would say that his description was apt, but I would add that there is flakiness to the HRI crust. You can see that if you peel back the crust to see the insides.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 08, 2013, 09:33:42 AM
Norma,

I recall asking Loo the same types of questions long ago when we first started to work on an HRI clone. You can read his response at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51557.html#msg51557. I would say that his description was apt, but I would add that there is flakiness to the HRI crust. You can see that if you peel back the crust to see the insides.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for linking me to Looís post where his descriptions of the crust were.  I am interested in finding that flakiness in an HRI crust.  I donít think I have ever tasted a pizza with flakiness in the crust. 

I might try an attempt on a HRI pizza this weekend.  Would you recommend I try my 10Ē cutter pan, or just bake on my pizza stone at home?

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 08, 2013, 10:20:57 AM
I might try an attempt on a HRI pizza this weekend.  Would you recommend I try my 10Ē cutter pan, or just bake on my pizza stone at home?
Norma,

As best I can tell from my research, there are basically three versions of the HRI dough over its long history. The first version was a dough that went through a sheeter, the worker formed a rim and, after dressing, the pizza was baked in a deck oven. The next iteration is the one used in the HRI stores today where the dough is hot pressed, placed on a perforated dark anodized disk, formed with an upstanding rim, dressed, and baked in a conveyor oven. The third and final iteration is the frozen HRI pizza where the dough is hot pressed, pre-baked without a carrier in a conveyor oven, dressed, and baked a bit more, and then flash frozen. HRI claims that the dough recipe has not changed over the years despite these multiple versions. I am not entirely convinced of that but the best data we have is for the HRI frozen pizzas.

So, you have multiple choices. Since you have a cutter pan, which I assume is not perforated, you might use that but it would not be true to the methods used at HRI over the years, although I think you should still be able to get a good pizza out of it. I believe that it is also possible to use a pizza screen in lieu of a disk. As you may know, pizza operators are increasingly going from screens to disks in conveyor ovens so that would suggest that either carrier should work in a conveyor oven. Of course, in your case, you would be using a home oven.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 08, 2013, 11:56:01 AM
Norma,

As best I can tell from my research, there are basically three versions of the HRI dough over its long history. The first version was a dough that went through a sheeter, the worker formed a rim and, after dressing, the pizza was baked in a deck oven. The next iteration is the one used in the HRI stores today where the dough is hot pressed, placed on a perforated dark anodized disk, formed with an upstanding rim, dressed, and baked in a conveyor oven. The third and final iteration is the frozen HRI pizza where the dough is hot pressed, pre-baked without a carrier in a conveyor oven, dressed, and baked a bit more, and then flash frozen. HRI claims that the dough recipe has not changed over the years despite these multiple versions. I am not entirely convinced of that but the best data we have is for the HRI frozen pizzas.

So, you have multiple choices. Since you have a cutter pan, which I assume is not perforated, you might use that but it would not be true to the methods used at HRI over the years, although I think you should still be able to get a good pizza out of it. I believe that it is also possible to use a pizza screen in lieu of a disk. As you may know, pizza operators are increasingly going from screens to disks in conveyor ovens so that would suggest that either carrier should work in a conveyor oven. Of course, in your case, you would be using a home oven.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me to the best of you knowledge HRI dough has 3 versions of their dough and what they are.

No, my cutter pan is not perforated, but I just brought my Lloydís perforated I think that is a pre-seasoned Tuff-Kote dark disk home from market.  Would that be a better option to use, and if it is would I then baked on my pizza stone?  I would guess my disk is a dark anodized disk, but I am not sure.  I recalled that pizza operators are increasing going from screens to disks in conveyor ovens.  I do have a screen at home too. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 08, 2013, 01:02:10 PM
No, my cutter pan is not perforated, but I just brought my Lloydís perforated I think that is a pre-seasoned Tuff-Kote dark disk home from market.  Would that be a better option to use, and if it is would I then baked on my pizza stone?  I would guess my disk is a dark anodized disk, but I am not sure.  I recalled that pizza operators are increasing going from screens to disks in conveyor ovens.  I do have a screen at home too. 
Norma,

I can't say absolutely that a perforated cutter pan will be better than a nonperforated cutter pan since I have not tried the nonperforated cutter pan for the HRI style of pizza. I used my perforated cutter pan on the middle oven rack position of my oven. I did that because I was trying to simulate the frozen HRI pizza (that I had defrosted completely and reassembled after I finished my tests on the pizza) that is baked directly on an oven rack, not on a carrier (like a cookie sheet) or on a stone.

A nonanodized perforated pan or disk should work if the pan or disk is seasoned enough. Costco uses seasoned perforated disks in its conveyor ovens in the food courts where they make their pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 08, 2013, 01:17:06 PM
Norma,

I used my non perforated dark anodized cutter pan on the rack. I think you would be fine with either your cutter pan you have or the Loyds perforated disc. If you decide to use one of these 2 then I will try my next one directly on a stone so that we have more pies to compare with.

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 08, 2013, 07:10:45 PM
Norma,

I can't say absolutely that a perforated cutter pan will be better than a nonperforated cutter pan since I have not tried the nonperforated cutter pan for the HRI style of pizza. I used my perforated cutter pan on the middle oven rack position of my oven. I did that because I was trying to simulate the frozen HRI pizza (that I had defrosted completely and reassembled after I finished my tests on the pizza) that is baked directly on an oven rack, not on a carrier (like a cookie sheet) or on a stone.

A nonanodized perforated pan or disk should work if the pan or disk is seasoned enough. Costco uses seasoned perforated disks in its conveyor ovens in the food courts where they make their pizzas.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that you canít say absolutely that a perforated cutter pan will be better than a nonperforated cutter pan since you have not tried the nonperforated cutter pan for the HRI style of pizza. 

I didnít bring my nonanodized perforated disk home from market, but either I will either try the Lloydís seasoned disk or my nonperforated cutter pan. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 08, 2013, 07:14:54 PM
Norma,

I used my non perforated dark anodized cutter pan on the rack. I think you would be fine with either your cutter pan you have or the Loyds perforated disc. If you decide to use one of these 2 then I will try my next one directly on a stone so that we have more pies to compare with.

Bob

Bob,

Thank you for telling me you used you nonperforated dark anodized cutter pan on the rack.  Thanks also for telling me you think I should be fine with either my cutter pan or the Lloydís perforated disk.  What rack position did you bake on?

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 08, 2013, 09:58:24 PM
Bob,

Thank you for telling me you used you nonperforated dark anodized cutter pan on the rack.  Thanks also for telling me you think I should be fine with either my cutter pan or the Lloydís perforated disk.  What rack position did you bake on?

Norma
Right in the middle Norma. And with my stone(which is the same as yours)on the rack just above it.
Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 08, 2013, 10:25:20 PM
Right in the middle Norma. And with my stone(which is the same as yours)on the rack just above it.
Bob

Bob,

Thanks so much for telling me what rack you baked on and that you had your stone on the rack just above it.  Do you know what placing the stone above the pizza does for the bake?  Do you always place a stone above the rack when you are baking a pizza like the HRI pizza?  Sorry to be asking so many questions. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 08, 2013, 10:50:26 PM
Bob,

Thanks so much for telling me what rack you baked on and that you had your stone on the rack just above it.  Do you know what placing the stone above the pizza does for the bake?  Do you always place a stone above the rack when you are baking a pizza like the HRI pizza?  Sorry to be asking so many questions. 

Norma
That's fine Norma, ask all you want...you never turn me away.  :)

With this gas oven that has the burner in the drawer, all of the heat travels up(obviously). And the top rack is really not very close to the ceiling of the oven. So...it won't really help much for top browning(if it is necessary). Having the stone right above the pizza that is baking helps me get the correct amount of top heat..balanced if you will.  Without having to mess around with the juggeling act of putting the pizza down in the drawer(broil) at the last minute.   This works great but does take a little trial and error(which racks to use)   depending on the style of pizza one is baking.
I've described the set-up that will probably give you good results for your HRI attempt. Center rack...disk/cutter pan...stone just above that.
Good luck Norma, you will like this pizza.....I gauuuuurrraaaannteee!   iiiyeee!!  >:D

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 08, 2013, 11:03:00 PM
That's fine Norma, ask all you want...you never turn me away.  :)

With this gas oven that has the burner in the drawer, all of the heat travels up(obviously). And the top rack is really not very close to the ceiling of the oven. So...it won't really help much for top browning(if it is necessary). Having the stone right above the pizza that is baking helps me get the correct amount of top heat..balanced if you will.  Without having to mess around with the juggeling act of putting the pizza down in the drawer(broil) at the last minute.   This works great but does take a little trial and error(which racks to use)   depending on the style of pizza one is baking.
I've described the set-up that will probably give you good results for your HRI attempt. Center rack...disk/cutter pan...stone just above that.
Good luck Norma, you will like this pizza.....I gauuuuurrraaaannteee!   iiiyeee!!  >:D

Bob

Bob,

I am glad you donít mind too many questions.   ;D

I am not sure if I will do the bake in my momís oven, or my home oven.  My mom is fussy about making any kind of mess in her oven, or her kitchen. 

Thanks for your detailed reply to my questions.  Thanks also for describing the set-up that will probably give me good results with my HRI attempt. 

This is all new to me, so I will see what happens.  Thanks so much for the good luck too.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 08, 2013, 11:15:39 PM
Bob,

I am glad you donít mind too many questions.   ;D

I am not sure if I will do the bake in my momís oven, or my home oven.  My mom is fussy about making any kind of mess in her oven, or her kitchen.  

Thanks for your detailed reply to my questions.  Thanks also for describing the set-up that will probably give me good results with my HRI attempt.  

This is all new to me, so I will see what happens.  Thanks so much for the good luck too.

Norma
Oh...that's right...I forgot that Momma said from now on you are only allowed to cook DS(?) style pizza's in her oven, sorry.  :(

Maybe you could bribe her with a fresh bouquet of flowers(that would be thoughtful)...I have a feeling she may prefer a nice 'lil bottle of your brothers vino though.... ^^^
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 08, 2013, 11:28:46 PM
Oh...that's right...I forgot that Momma said from now on you are only allowed to cook DS(?) style pizza's in her oven, sorry.  :(

Maybe you could bribe her with a fresh bouquet of flowers(that would be thoughtful)...I have a feeling she may prefer a nice 'lil bottle of your brothers vino though.... ^^^

Bob,

Mom said I can only bake Mack's clones, or Detroit style pizzas at her home.  She still gets upset if I get a little bit of flour anywhere. 

I might try to bake my attempt in my home oven first to see what happens.  My heat comes from my bottom coil in my electric oven.  Mine might even be a disaster, so I would want to try it first.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 08, 2013, 11:32:41 PM
This is off topic, but Norma, if I understand correctly, you're a grandmother -- right?  does that mean you're cooking in a great-grandmother's oven?  If so, that is SO COOL!  reminds me of when I (as a toddler) used to spend time in my great-grandmother's kitchen, many years ago now.   :chef: :chef: :chef:
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 08, 2013, 11:39:36 PM
This is off topic, but Norma, if I understand correctly, you're a grandmother -- right?  does that mean you're cooking in a great-grandmother's oven?  If so, that is SO COOL!  reminds me of when I (as a toddler) used to spend time in my great-grandmother's kitchen, many years ago now.   :chef: :chef: :chef:

CDNpielover,

I am a great-grandmother.  It would be my mother's oven I used a few times.  

I am glad it reminded you of when you were a toddler and spent time at your great-grandmother's.  :) I really like memories too.  My grandmother used to bake in an old-fashioned wood oven in the middle of her kitchen, but she didn't want anyone messing in her kitchen either, but that wasn't my mother's mother, it was my dad's mother.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 08, 2013, 11:42:05 PM
CDNpielover,

I am a great-grandmother.  It would be my mother's oven I used a few times.  

I am glad it reminded you of when you were a toddler and spent time at your great-grandmother's.  :) I really like memories too.  My grandmother used to bake in an old-fashioned wood oven in the middle of her kitchen, but she didn't want anyone messing in her kitchen either, but that wasn't my mother' mother, it was my dad's mother.  :-D

Norma

Haha, that's awesome!  Again, this is off topic, but thanks for all of your input on this forum.  You're one of my favorite (top 2 or 3) contributors on this forum.   :chef: :pizza:

EDIT:  wait - does that mean the great-great-grandmother is still alive???  (that would be amazing, and SO cool!)
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 08, 2013, 11:51:38 PM
Haha, that's awesome!  Again, this is off topic, but thanks for all of your input on this forum.  You're one of my favorite (top 2 or 3) contributors on this forum.   :chef: :pizza:

EDIT:  wait - does that mean the great-great-grandmother is still alive???  (that would be amazing, and SO cool!)

CDNpielover,

Thanks for your kind comment.  I don't want to get off-topic anymore either, but my neither of my grandmothers are alive anymore.  My mom is over 90 years old now.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 08, 2013, 11:54:33 PM
CDNpielover,

Thanks for your kind comment.  I don't want to get off-topic anymore either, but my neither of my grandmothers are alive anymore.  My mom is over 90 years old now.

Norma

Thanks, Norma!  I don't mean to be sappy, but it's really neat that we have about 4 generations of people actively involved on these forums.   :chef: :pizza:  Thank your mother for all of us!   :chef:
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 09, 2013, 12:22:53 AM
Thanks, Norma!  I don't mean to be sappy, but it's really neat that we have about 4 generations of people actively involved on these forums.   :chef: :pizza:  Thank your mother for all of us!   :chef:
And please tell her we need her oven!  :-*
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 09, 2013, 03:35:27 PM
After reading the article that Peter had referenced before about HRI and how they operate their frozen pizza facility, I decide to try some of their methods.  These are some things taken out of article at http://www.bsimagazine.com/Features/Company%20Profiles/US%20Archive/At%20its%20new%20plant%20Home%20Run%20Inn%20makes%20frozen%20pizza%20the%20pizzaria%20way.aspx?p=1&cck=1 

ďWe know we offer the best pizza we can make,Ē he continued. ďOur approach has been to make one type of product and keep it simple.Ē Mr. DeAngelo pointed to the ingredient statement on product packages, saying, ďWe keep the list short.Ē

Home Run Inn pizza stands out not only for its simple ingredient statement but also for its unique processing style. Every pizza is baked before it's frozen.

ďConventional frozen pizza is made with a partially baked crust that is frozen first, then topped with cheese, sauce and par-cooked meats, only to be frozen again. That's the standard way,Ē Mr. DeAngelo said.

ďBut we are one of only a few companies to manufacture in this style, producing pre-baked pizzas,Ē he continued. ďWe use all raw ingredients and par-bake the pizza as a unit. This is just like pizzerias do. It's a process that blends the flavors so you get real pizzeria taste.Ē

ďWe take pizza to the next step,Ē Mr. Perrino said. ďWe do not double-freeze the crust, so there is no loss of flavor. Because we bake the pizza, the toppings don't fall off as they do with conventional frozen pizza. And we use cryogenic freezing methods to further protect the flavor.Ē

Home Run Inn chose cryogenic freezing over mechanical and blast styles. Temperatures generated by the liquid nitrogen process reach -50į to -80įF (-45į to -62įC). Each pizza goes directly from the oven to the freezer and within minutes is frozen solid.

ďThis locks in the flavor we want,Ē Mr. DeAngelo said.

The cryogenic method prevents dehydration from refrigeration, according to the company. And it opens up future opportunities for new products such as pirogies and ravioli.

Soon after setting up its commercial plant, the company sought the assistance of Tom Lehman of the American Institute of Baking. ďWhat we learned is that we have to stick to the basics, keep up our quality and not be tempted to cut costs,Ē said Mr. Perrino. ďThese are expensive choices, but they're what the public wants. And it's what we must do to achieve our plan to Ďtake the niche' for premium pizzas in our market area.Ē

This is one part of that article that I found interesting and what was said. 

ďThe hardest thing to do under U.S.D.A. standards,Ē Mr. Perrino said, ďis to run a bakery in a U.S.D.A. plant, and that's what we have here.Ē

After mixing, the pizza dough is allowed to ferment in tubs containing 40-lb batches. The company likes the unique flavor that natural fermentation produces. Tubs are cleaned and sanitized between batches.

ďOur dough is given the time to develop flavor naturally,Ē Mr. Perrino said. ďNo additives are used to speed up the process. We follow Ďold world' methods that rely on time and natural fermentation.Ē

After the proper amount of floor time, the dough is dumped into a Benier bread system that divides and rounds individual dough pieces and puts them through a period of intermediate proofing. From the proofer, the dough balls travel along an overhead delivery conveyor into the pressing room. A chute sends the balls to a shallow bin, and an operator manually places the balls on the conveyor leading to the presses.

That part of the article got me to thinking that I wanted to try to get the unique flavor that natural fermentation produces.  The proofing two times also interested me.

I also watched the video that was referenced before at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KrnK-TORnE  and this video I found.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsQCgtla79E  In the video I found they said the dough is aged for 2 to 3 days like an Artisan bread.  The showed the dough on that video.  They also showed how to shape the dough and dress it.  I donít think the second video was posted on either of the HRI threads, but maybe I missed it.

Home Run Inn CEO Joe Perrino appeared on Fox Business in February to about the company's history and our strategy for growth even in the worst of times.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgqhSVUukc8&list=UU1Yvhdso3rYkh8G42n3TlLQ&index=7

I also read though both of the HRI threads and then this is what I decided to do.  Basically, I use some of the formulations posted here, but changed them a little as what was posted on both threads.  I mixed the dough with the flat beater first, then changed to a dough hook.  The dough mixed fine.  The dough was left in the oven to proof and then was punched down and I am letting it proof again with the oven light on.  From there I will ball the dough and place it into the fridge.  I am not sure if I will be able to make pizza tonight or tomorrow, but with all that yeast that was put into the dough I guess I should try to make the pizza tonight.  I would have tried these methods over two or three days, but didnít read about it before.  I know am trying to decide how much sauce, cheese and sausage to use on the 10Ē pizza.

Any comments about what I have done and if I should have changed anything, or still need to change anything?

Pictures of the progression and the formulation I used for a 10Ē HRI attempt.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 09, 2013, 03:38:33 PM
I will have to learn to resize my pictures differently because now they are really off center.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 09, 2013, 03:51:41 PM
GREAT videos, thanks for posting!  I appreciate HRI even more now LOL.   :-D  Dough looks great too, can't wait to see the finished product.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: pete zappie on March 09, 2013, 04:22:06 PM
is there a big difference in ady and idy ......also this is very simmular to the loy malnatis clone minus the salmolina
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 09, 2013, 04:38:37 PM
Norma,
Your dough is looking real good. I like that you used corn oil, I think it makes a difference. I see you used 21% for oil, a little less than usual, I think, and I'm interested in seeing how this bakes. My heavy oil doughs look ugly, yours is pretty and I imagine it is fermenting better.

I posted my topping weights here if you'd like to consider them. I think they were real close. Good luck!  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg241729.html#msg241729
Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 09, 2013, 04:56:32 PM
Norma,
Your dough is looking real good. I like that you used corn oil, I think it makes a difference. I see you used 21% for oil, a little less than usual, I think, and I'm interested in seeing how this bakes. My heavy oil doughs look ugly, yours is pretty and I imagine it is fermenting better.

I posted my topping weights here if you'd like to consider them. I think they were real close. Good luck!  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg241729.html#msg241729
Bob


Bob,

I used a little less corn oil because of what Peter posted that somewhere on this thread and I upped the salt level because of what Peter posted at Reply 242.  I canít copy the links right now by clicking on those little papers.  The dough is fermenting well I guess because I used a large amount of ADY.  Now I will have to wait and see if the edges of the crust stand up right.

Thanks for showing me the weights of toppings you used.

HRI dough after it rose again and dough ball.  It is in the fridge now.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 09, 2013, 05:10:46 PM
Ok thanks Norma...I don't need those links.

I tried clicking on those little papers too earlier for something and found out it works if you click just to the right..on the topic heading...RE:Home run Inn   (or where ever it is you are at).  Click that and it will change the www. location box at the top of your screen...just copy and then paste that.
This is what I'm doing anyway..you probably know a better way.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 09, 2013, 05:44:34 PM


I tried clicking on those little papers too earlier for something and found out it works if you click just to the right..on the topic heading...RE:Home run Inn   (or where ever it is you are at).  Click that and it will change the www. location box at the top of your screen...just copy and then paste that.
This is what I'm doing anyway..you probably know a better way.

Bob,

Thanks for telling me to click on the topic heading now.  ;) I see that does work if someone want to copy what was posted before.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 09, 2013, 06:11:30 PM
Great intel on HRI!

That being said, we have to assume that they would certainly hold back some proprietary information.  I just can't see how forum members tweaking oil levels and fermentation times will result in the dough spontaneously forming itself into flaky layers like actual HRI exhibits.  Is that possible?

I just pulled a finished HRI Ultrathin from the oven, cut it, and even this thinner dough shows five to seven layers.  There has to be some sheeting or laminating if some kind, no?

That is why the HRI recipe I tried in this thread was such a complete and thorough failure.  It is not even close to the real thing.  Some essential part of the process is missing.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 09, 2013, 07:34:53 PM
These are the ingredients I use for toppings and the rest of the process.  The pizza was dressed on the wooden peel and then it was deposited HRI onto the disk that was already heated on the pizza stone.  The dough was open by hand and rice flour was used on the wooden peel.  The one problem was the bottom crust didnít get brown enough.  I did try at the end of the bake to take the pizza off the screen and put it right on the pizza stone, but donít think I did it soon enough.  The crust was flaky (if I understand what a flaky pizza crust really is), but since I never have eaten a real or frozen HRI pizza, I have no idea if my attempt was any good.  I think this attempt could have been baked the whole way on my pizza stone, but am not sure.  There appears also to be what is somewhat of a gum line under the dressings.  Since the pizza crust became cooler the crust got flakier.

Of the thin crust pizzas I have tried so far this was the best for my tastes.  It was tender in the middle of the crust.

Norma 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 09, 2013, 07:37:21 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 09, 2013, 07:39:55 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 09, 2013, 08:16:20 PM
Norma,

The video you mentioned where the HRI employee talks about the 2-3 days of fermentation is in the EDIT at Reply 188 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190395.html#msg190395 but with a slightly different URL.

Can you tell us what oven temperature you used to bake the pizza? The bottom crust is on the light side but that could have been due to an oven temperature that was too high and did not allow the bottom crust enough time to brown up more. Next time, you might want to use the perforated disk by itself and form the skin right on the disk and dress it there. 

Also, did you note the weights of the cheese and sauce? And how did you arrive at the weight of the dough for the pizza?

I suspect that originally HRI used fresh yeast, and then went to ADY until IDY was invented. It is still possible I suppose that HRI is using ADY but the article at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14 states that the yeast is added after the oil is added to the dough. It is possible that the ADY is added dry, that is, without prehydration, but that would seem to be an unnecessary step for a commercial, high-volume operations. It is far easier to add IDY to the dough ingredients.

Overall, I think you did well for a first try. Maybe when Bob sends you a real HRI frozen pizza, you can make another attempt and compare the two pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 09, 2013, 08:33:07 PM
That being said, we have to assume that they would certainly hold back some proprietary information.  I just can't see how forum members tweaking oil levels and fermentation times will result in the dough spontaneously forming itself into flaky layers like actual HRI exhibits.  Is that possible?
Garvey,

I seriously doubt that HRI uses any lamination method. For its stores and for its frozen pizza operation, it uses hot dough presses. In fact, for the frozen pizza operation, you can see the dough presses at page 24 of the article at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14. I believe that the flakiness comes from the way the ingredients are combined in their mixers, which is also discussed at page 24 of the article mentioned above. From the article, it also sounds like the dough goes right from the mixer to the chunker, and the dough pieces are then divided, rounded, manually checked for weight and racked. The article is silent as to whether the racked dough balls are fermented before processing through the dough presses.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 09, 2013, 09:00:10 PM
I've got an HRI forzen pizza in the oven right now -- MAN does it smell good!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 09, 2013, 09:27:44 PM
Just finished eating some of the frozen HRI.  This will probably get me in trouble, (  >:D ), but to be honest, I found it really bland.  I'm not sure how much the freezing has to do with that, or if pizzas from the shops taste that way too.  It was better than most other frozen pizzas I've had, but to be honest I can think of at least a few local chains in Minnesota that make better pizza of that same style.   :chef:

The dough was very flaky, like a pie crust.  I can discern pronounced layers in the crust...  or, at least I think I can.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 09, 2013, 09:33:50 PM
Norma,

The video you mentioned where the HRI employee talks about the 2-3 days of fermentation is in the EDIT at Reply 188 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190395.html#msg190395 but with a slightly different URL.

Can you tell us what oven temperature you used to bake the pizza? The bottom crust is on the light side but that could have been due to an oven temperature that was too high and did not allow the bottom crust enough time to brown up more. Next time, you might want to use the perforated disk by itself and form the skin right on the disk and dress it there. 

Also, did you note the weights of the cheese and sauce? And how did you arrive at the weight of the dough for the pizza?

I suspect that originally HRI used fresh yeast, and then went to ADY until IDY was invented. It is still possible I suppose that HRI is using ADY but the article at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14 states that the yeast is added after the oil is added to the dough. It is possible that the ADY is added dry, that is, without prehydration, but that would seem to be an unnecessary step for a commercial, high-volume operations. It is far easier to add IDY to the dough ingredients.

Overall, I think you did well for a first try. Maybe when Bob sends you a real HRI frozen pizza, you can make another attempt and compare the two pizzas.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for telling me where the HRI employees talks about the 2-3 days of fermentation on the link from your post. 

I used an oven temperature of about 440 degrees F and had heated my pizza stone for an hour before I baked the pizza.  In my next attempt I will either try this at market on the perforated disk on the stone, or at home just on the perforated disk.  I will also dress on the screen next time.

I did note the weight of the sausage before I deposited pieces of it.  The sausage link before the casing came off was 4.2 oz.  The sauce was 4.5 ounces and the blend of mozzarellas was 5 ounces.  I just used the whole weight of the dough with the bowl residue compensation added.  I did not subtract the bowl residue compensation because I really didnít know how this attempt would turn out, so I sure wasnít being too precise.

I only wanted to try ADY to see what would happen and used a high amount of ADY.  Thanks also for the link to the second article that stated that the yeast is added after the oil is added to the dough.  I can understand it is far easier to add IDY to the dough ingredients for a commercial, high-volume operation.  I will used IDY the next time. 

I can make another attempt when Bob sends me a frozen HRI pizza.  My daughter also said she might take me to Maryland in the next couple of weeks to pick-up a couple of HRI frozen pizzas.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 09, 2013, 10:00:50 PM
Hey Norma!  that HRI of yours looks fantastic!!!  your sauce looks wonderful!  how did you prepare it if you dont mind me asking!! the way you desribe the crust sounds excellent.  i love it when it is not too thick, you get that nice gumlayer and some tenderness in the middle! really looks awesome!! you rock!!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 09, 2013, 10:09:34 PM
Hey Norma!  that HRI of yours looks fantastic!!!  your sauce looks wonderful!  how did you prepare it if you dont mind me asking!! the way you desribe the crust sounds excellent.  i love it when it is not too thick, you get that nice gumlayer and some tenderness in the middle! really looks awesome!! you rock!!!

mrmojo1,

Thank you for your kind comments!

I just used the Classico Crushed Tomatoes from Walmart right out of the can.  I think they taste like 6-in-1s.  Classico Crushed Tomatoes are made by Escalon.  Since I used sausage I didnít want to add any spices to the Classico Crushed Tomatoes.  Did you ever try the Classico Crushed Tomatoes?

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 09, 2013, 10:30:21 PM

Peter,

After I read over that article better and reread the pages that you referenced at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14 it says on page 24 that vegetable oil is used in HRI dough.  Do you really think anyone should change to vegetable oil instead of corn oil when making an attempt on a HRI pizza?

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 10, 2013, 12:22:17 AM
hi norma!  ive never tried classico!  I am going to now!! thank you!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 10, 2013, 09:47:07 AM
After I read over that article better and reread the pages that you referenced at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14 it says on page 24 that vegetable oil is used in HRI dough.  Do you really think anyone should change to vegetable oil instead of corn oil when making an attempt on a HRI pizza?
Norma,

If you look at the ingredients list for a typical HRI frozen pizza, for example, an HRI frozen sausage pizza, at http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/frozen-pizza/details?alias=classic-sausage, you will see that the oil used in their dough is corn oil. Corn is a vegetable, so corn oil is generically a "vegetable oil". All of the HRI frozen pizzas use corn oil in the dough. If they are using soybean oil, which is most commonly referred to as a vegetable oil, I have not read anything to suggest that soybean oil is being used.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 10, 2013, 09:58:13 AM
ive never tried classico!  I am going to now!! thank you!
Terry,

HRI has always made a big point of the fact that they use a puree because of its supposed better flavor. They say that it is a thick puree and they also water it down a bit and add a little bit of oregano and black pepper. The Classico puree is sold at some Wal-Marts so you might want to be on the lookout for that product at your local Wal-Mart.  This is what that product looks like: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Classico-Heavy-Tomato-Puree-28-oz/19399875.

Peter

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Steve on March 10, 2013, 10:40:16 AM
I just used the Classico Crushed Tomatoes from Walmart right out of the can.  I think they taste like 6-in-1s.  Classico Crushed Tomatoes are made by Escalon.  Since I used sausage I didnít want to add any spices to the Classico Crushed Tomatoes.  Did you ever try the Classico Crushed Tomatoes?

Norma, are you sure about that? Your post intrigued me since I love Escalon 6-in-1 tomatoes (fortunately, my local Kroger carries them). But, if Classico is made by Escalon then I'd like to try some!

I went to Classico's website and it appears that Classico is made by Heinz (not Escalon) as this is what I found:

Looking for your favorite Classicoģ Canned Tomato products? Enter a ZIP code below, then click the "Find It" button to locate a Walmartģ store near you. If you can't find what you're looking for, contact H.J. Heinz Company, L.P. customer service by using our contact us form or call 1-888-337-2420 to find out which Walmarts in your area have them in stock.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 10, 2013, 10:48:12 AM
Steve,

See Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16096.msg162383.html#msg162383. A good part of the thread is devoted to this subject.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 10, 2013, 10:48:57 AM
Norma, are you sure about that? Your post intrigued me since I love Escalon 6-in-1 tomatoes (fortunately, my local Kroger carries them). But, if Classico is made by Escalon then I'd like to try some!

I went to Classico's website and it appears that Classico is made by Heinz (not Escalon) as this is what I found:

Looking for your favorite Classicoģ Canned Tomato products? Enter a ZIP code below, then click the "Find It" button to locate a Walmartģ store near you. If you can't find what you're looking for, contact H.J. Heinz Company, L.P. customer service by using our contact us form or call 1-888-337-2420 to find out which Walmarts in your area have them in stock.
Here you go Steve...http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15703.msg154848.html#msg154848
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Steve on March 10, 2013, 10:54:47 AM
I should have known better than to question Norma!  :-[
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 10, 2013, 12:01:07 PM
Norma,

If you look at the ingredients list for a typical HRI frozen pizza, for example, an HRI frozen sausage pizza, at http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/frozen-pizza/details?alias=classic-sausage, you will see that the oil used in their dough is corn oil. Corn is a vegetable, so corn oil is generically a "vegetable oil". All of the HRI frozen pizzas use corn oil in the dough. If they are using soybean oil, which is most commonly referred to as a vegetable oil, I have not read anything to suggest that soybean oil is being used.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing the ingredients list for a HRI frozen sausage pizza.  I see that the oiled used in their dough is corn oil.  I know corn was a vegetable, but I didnít know corn oil is generically a ďvegetable oilĒ. 

Norma 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 10, 2013, 12:03:51 PM
I should have known better than to question Norma!  :-[

Steve,

Not to concern yourself.  I am wrong lots of times.   :-D  That is why I ask so many questions.

Norma

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 10, 2013, 12:39:35 PM
Thanks for referencing the ingredients list for a HRI frozen sausage pizza.  I see that the oiled used in their dough is corn oil.  I know corn was a vegetable, but I didnít know corn oil is generically a ďvegetable oilĒ.   

Norma,

As I noted at Reply 181 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190123.html#msg190123, HRI says that it uses the exact same recipe to make its pizzas as it uses in its eight pizzerias. So, that means that HRI uses corn oil for both its fresh and frozen pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 10, 2013, 01:01:12 PM
Norma,

As I noted at Reply 181 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190123.html#msg190123, HRI says that it uses the exact same recipe to make its pizzas as it uses in its eight pizzerias. So, that means that HRI uses corn oil for both its fresh and frozen pizzas.

Peter

Peter,

I did recall that you had posted at Reply 181 that HRI used the exact same dough recipe for their fresh pizzas and their frozen pizzas.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 10, 2013, 04:16:41 PM
Sometimes when you read articles and other items that are out of sequence timewise, it is hard to get the full picture as to how matters changed and progressed. So, it helps to read them in chronological order. In this vein, I went back and put all the articles and videos from the various HRI threads, including this one, in chronological order in order to see how things changed at HRI over time. The items might not be exactly in chronological order because there is often a lag between the event in question and its being publicized.

Circa 1996 (estimated): Cache article at http://www.bsimagazine.com/Features/Company%20Profiles/US%20Archive/At%20its%20new%20plant%20Home%20Run%20Inn%20makes%20frozen%20pizza%20the%20pizzaria%20way.aspx?p=1&cck=1 (http://www.bsimagazine.com/Features/Company%20Profiles/US%20Archive/At%20its%20new%20plant%20Home%20Run%20Inn%20makes%20frozen%20pizza%20the%20pizzaria%20way.aspx?p=1&cck=1) (the article discusses the second HRI frozen dough facility, at Woodridge, IL, in 1996)

Feb. 7, 2007 (from Wayback Machine): http://web.archive.org/web/20080108142211/http://www.fesmag.com/archives/2005/09/pizza-production.asp (http://web.archive.org/web/20080108142211/http://www.fesmag.com/archives/2005/09/pizza-production.asp) (this article, parts of which are excerpted at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51590.html#msg51590 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51590.html#msg51590), discusses how pizzas were made at the time in the HRI pizzerias)

April 25, 2007: Rachael Ray Chicago vs. New York Pizza Throwdown video at http://www.rachaelrayshow.com/show/segments/view/chicago-vs-new-york-pizza-throwdown/ (http://www.rachaelrayshow.com/show/segments/view/chicago-vs-new-york-pizza-throwdown/) (this video shows some scenes of how pizzas were made in the HRI pizzerias)

May, 2007 (from Wayback Machine): http://web.archive.org/web/20071031144943/http://bakingmanagement.bakery-net.com/article/16959 (http://web.archive.org/web/20071031144943/http://bakingmanagement.bakery-net.com/article/16959) (this article discusses the high amount of oil used by HRI at the time and how that affected the equipment it used)

2007/2008: HRI school lunch pizzas at http://www.foxriverfoods.com/cfm/prodinfo.cfm?itemnumber=397543 (http://www.foxriverfoods.com/cfm/prodinfo.cfm?itemnumber=397543) ; http://www.foxriverfoods.com/cfm/prodinfo.cfm?itemnumber=397546 (http://www.foxriverfoods.com/cfm/prodinfo.cfm?itemnumber=397546) ; http://www.foxriverfoods.com/cfm/prodinfo.cfm?itemnumber=397545, (http://www.foxriverfoods.com/cfm/prodinfo.cfm?itemnumber=397545,) and http://www.foxriverfoods.com/cfm/prodinfo.cfm?itemnumber=397544 (http://www.foxriverfoods.com/cfm/prodinfo.cfm?itemnumber=397544) (these items are taken from http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/hot-lunch-program/menu-and-nutritional-information (http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/hot-lunch-program/menu-and-nutritional-information) and show the ingredients used to make the pizzas marketed to schools)

Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51738.html#msg51738 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51738.html#msg51738) (this post quotes Joe Perrino on the differences between the store pizzas and the frozen pizzas made by HRI and the amount of sausage used at the time by percent of the weight of the sausage pizzas; because of a dead link, the original article could not be found)

August 5, 2008: http://www.refrigeratedfrozenfood.com/articles/special-frozen-pizza-feature-old-school-meets-new-school (http://www.refrigeratedfrozenfood.com/articles/special-frozen-pizza-feature-old-school-meets-new-school) (the article discusses the HRI frozen dough facility at Woodridge, IL that was expanded in 2006)

October 23, 2009: YouTube video at Home Run Inn Pizza (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsQCgtla79E#) (discloses how pizzas were made by HRI at the time in its pizzerias, and includes the discussion of the use of 2-3 days of cold fermentation.

Jan 29, 2010: Chicago Tribune Photos of "Making a Home Run Inn pizza": http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-home-run-inn-pizza-photos-galleries-jan29,0,5881324.photogallery (http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-home-run-inn-pizza-photos-galleries-jan29,0,5881324.photogallery) (photos show the role of workers in making HRI frozen pizzas)

April 28, 2010: Joe Perrino YouTube video at Home Run Inn on Fox Business (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgqhSVUukc8#ws) (this video discusses some of the HRI history and its move into the frozen pizza business)

May, 2010: http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14 (http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14) (discusses HRIís frozen pizza operation at Woodridge, IL)

August 8, 2011: http://www.fesmag.com/features/chain-operations/5741-home-run-inn (http://www.fesmag.com/features/chain-operations/5741-home-run-inn) (due to website problems, see the cache version or read the pertinent excerpted portion of the article at Reply 188 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190395.html#msg190395 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190395.html#msg190395)) (discusses how pizzas were made at the time in the HRI pizzerias)

November 3, 2011 YouTube video at Chicago Pizza by Home Run Inn Pizzeria - Best Chicago Pizza? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KrnK-TORnE#) (this video offers a historical perspective of HRI over the years)

As a cross check on some of the dates, I also took a look at the History & Timeline given at the HRI website, at http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/our-story/history-a-timeline/1980-1999 (http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/our-story/history-a-timeline/1980-1999) (from 1980 forward).

If other articles or videos, etc., come to my attention that merit inclusion in the above list, I will add them.

Peter

EDIT 1 (3/12/13): Added Chicago Tribune link
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 10, 2013, 08:53:17 PM
Terry,

HRI has always made a big point of the fact that they use a puree because of its supposed better flavor. They say that it is a thick puree and they also water it down a bit and add a little bit of oregano and black pepper. The Classico puree is sold at some Wal-Marts so you might want to be on the lookout for that product at your local Wal-Mart.  This is what that product looks like: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Classico-Heavy-Tomato-Puree-28-oz/19399875.

Peter

thank you so much Peter!  you are the best!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 11, 2013, 04:32:35 PM
Just finished eating some of the frozen HRI.  This will probably get me in trouble, (  >:D ), but to be honest, I found it really bland.  I'm not sure how much the freezing has to do with that, or if pizzas from the shops taste that way too.

CDNpielover,

In the course of putting together Reply 304 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242309.html#msg242309, I had occasion to revisit two of the main articles on the HRI frozen pizza operations, at http://www.bsimagazine.com/Features/Company%20Profiles/US%20Archive/At%20its%20new%20plant%20Home%20Run%20Inn%20makes%20frozen%20pizza%20the%20pizzaria%20way.aspx?p=1&cck=1 (estimated circa 1996) and at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14 (May 2010). These articles are spaced many years apart, and no doubt there were many changes between the times of these articles, but I think one might reasonably conclude that the doughs used for the HRI frozen pizza operations are not cold fermented, even though HRI says that for their frozen pizza operations they try to mimic what is done in their pizzerias. If there is any meaningful fermentation occurring in their frozen pizza facilities, it might well be an ambient temperature fermentation. If that is so, there might be limited flavor contribution to the finished baked crust beyond the flavor contributions of the large amount of yeast (I estimate above 2%) and the high amount of oil used to make the dough. As previously noted, I did not conclude that HRI was using an above average amount of salt. I am pretty sure that the bulk of the salt in most of HRI's frozen pizzas is in the dough. I played around with several scenarios involving different mozzarella cheeses and puree products, in relation to the HRI frozen cheese and pepperoni pizzas, and the results suggested around 2% salt in the dough. That is not an amount of salt that will come through particularly strongly on the palate if one tastes only the crust. 

To add to the above, yesterday I dismembered the last frozen HRI pizza (a sausage pizza) that I purchased a while ago, and noted the quantities of cheese, sauce and sausage. I plan to report more on my findings soon, but while I was doing the dismemberment, I carefully examined and tasted the sauce. According to all of the information that has been reported by HRI on its sauce, it comprises only a puree (apparently a high-quality heavy puree, most likely from Stanislaus or Escalon), water, oregano, salt (which may be the small amount of salt that is in the canned tomatoes), and black pepper. I could not identify anything in the sauce as being oregano or black pepper, either visually or by taste. So, that may account for the blandness you mentioned. Also, the amount of sauce that I extricated from the most recent sausage pizza was quite small. However, is is possible that there was a sizable weight loss during the baking of the pizza.

As previously noted, I believe that the mozzarella cheese that HRI uses is a type of fairly basic mozzarella low moisture part-skim cheese that can be found in just about any supermarket, at least based on my analysis of the HRI Nutrition Facts. When I tasted the mozzarella cheese on the HRI pizza I dismembered, it did not strike me as being out of the ordinary. Hence, it may be somewhat lacking in the flavor department.

I have never had a real HRI pizza in one of its stores, but it appears that the doughs used in the stores are subjected to a reasonable period of cold fermentation. So, it is possible that a cold fermented clone, especially one that is jacked up with more oregano and other seasonings, will be an improvement over its frozen counterpart.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 11, 2013, 06:43:45 PM
As previously reported, I conducted a series of experiments on two HRI frozen sausage pizzas in order to determine the quantities of cheese, sauce, sausage and crust. In order to do this, I dismembered each pizza into its component parts, using the methodology as described in Reply 277 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg241334.html#msg241334. After all of the weights were taken, I reassembled each pizza and noted the total reassembled weight of the pizza. For baking purposes, I placed each reassembled pizza on my perforated dark anodized disk on the middle oven rack position of my home electric oven and baked it for about 12 minutes at an oven temperature of around 475 degrees F, or until the rim and bottom of the pizza were a ďgoldenĒ brown. As might be expected, my defrosted (reassembled) pizzas took less time to bake than if they were baked from the completely frozen state as instructed on the pizza boxes. All of the forgoing was done on two separate days.

For the second sausage pizza, I took one more weight that I did not take for the first sausage pizza. That was for the sausage after baking. To conduct this additional test, after the pizza was done baking, I removed all of the sausage pieces from the pizza again, and reweighed them in order to be able to calculate the weight loss for the sausage. This was an additional weight loss since all of the ingredients, including the sausage, previously experienced weight losses during the original baking of the pizza at HRIís facilities before freezing and packaging. For both pizzas, I can only speculate what the total weight losses are from the original unbaked/pre-baked pizzas to their final fully baked state. I had hoped to be able to remove the mozzarella cheese from the second fully baked pizza for reweighing purposes but I discovered that the cheese and sauce had combined in such a way as to make it impractical to separate them.

I performed all of the abovestated activities in a very meticulous manner. I did this because I wanted to see how the data would compare for the two sausage pizzas that I put under the knife. I was not expecting any big surprises. So, it came as somewhat a shock to me when I discovered that the two sausage pizzas had materially different weights of sausage and cheese (highlighted below). I thought that I might have made a math error somewhere but when I added up all of the numbers again, there was no evidence of any errors. It was then that I decided to combine the weights of the sauce, cheese and sausage for both pizzas. To my surprise, the combined weights of those ingredients for the two sausage pizzas were very close (also  highlighted below). Moreover, when I added in the weights of the two baked crusts, the totals for both pizzas as reassembled were also very close (highlighted below). All of this leads me to believe that the PLCs (Programmable Logical Controllers) and related sensors used in HRIís frozen pizza facilities are able to track the weights of the pizzas and control the amounts of cheese and sausage such that the total weight of each pizza is close to its desired end weight. It is also possible that workers in the HRI facilities also do some monitoring of the pizzas as they pass through the system to be sure that they are in proper order.

I have set forth below the summaries of the data I collected for the two HRI frozen sausage pizzas. From that data, our members may be able to decide on what dough ball weight to use, and also how much sauce, cheese and sausage to use, as adjusted to reflect weight losses during baking.

12Ē HRI Frozen Classic Sausage Pizza #1
Actual diameter of the pizza: 11.5Ē
Weight of the pizza, frozen, as given on the pizza box: 852 grams (6 x 142) = 30.053 ounces
Actual weight of the frozen pizza: 855 grams = 30.159 ounces
Weight of the sausage (defrosted): 105 grams = 3.7 ounces
Weight of cheese (defrosted): 239 grams = 8.43 ounces

Weight of sauce (defrosted): 87 grams = 3.07 ounces[/b]
Combined weights of sausage, cheese and sauce (defrosted): 431 grams = 15.2 ounces
Weight of crust (defrosted): 417 grams = 14.71 ounces
Weight of reassembled pizza: 848 grams = 29.91 ounces (a loss of 7 grams)
Weight of the baked pizza: 760 grams = 27.51 ounces
% weight loss of the reassembled pizza = 8.02%

12Ē HRI Frozen Classic Sausage Pizza #2
Actual diameter of the pizza = 11.5Ē
Weight of the pizza, frozen, as given on the pizza box: 852 grams (6 x 142) = 30.053 ounces
Actual weight of the frozen pizza: 854 grams = 30.124 ounces
Weight of the sausage (defrosted): 170 grams = 6 ounces
Weight of cheese (defrosted): 178 grams = 6.28 ounces

Weight of sauce (defrosted): 92 grams = 3.25 ounces
Combined weights of sausage, cheese and sauce (defrosted): 440 grams = 15.52 ounces
Weight of crust (defrosted): 409 grams = 14.42 ounces
Weight of reassembled pizza: 849 grams = 29.95 ounces (a loss of 4 grams)
Weight of the baked pizza: 787 grams = 27.76 ounces
% weight loss = 7.3%
Weight loss of sausage, after baking: 21.77%

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 11, 2013, 06:52:29 PM
Peter,

Very nice summaries in your last two posts!  Also nice dismemberments of the HRI frozen pizzas.  :-D

Thanks also for the weights of ingredients to try.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 11, 2013, 07:26:13 PM
Tomato puree on crust, posted on Home Run Inn Pizza facebook page on March 6th.  This is what it said.

ďWe use tomato puree for our pizza sauce, not paste. That way, itís richer and bursting with zesty flavor. You know it when you taste it. "Like" if Home Run Inn pizza's sauce is your favorite ingredient!Ē

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 11, 2013, 07:30:44 PM
Also nice dismemberments of the HRI frozen pizzas.  :-D

Norma,

My initial thought was to put the dismembered parts into the trunk of my car for suitable disposal in a field somewhere. But, having spent several dollars for the pizzas, I decided that the better course was to eat the evidence.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 11, 2013, 07:40:25 PM
Norma,

My initial thought was to put the dismembered parts into the trunk of my car for suitable disposal in a field somewhere. But, having spent several dollars for the pizzas, I decided that the better course was to eat the evidence.

Peter

Peter,

What you posted was funny!  :-D  I agree, I would have eaten the evidence too!

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 11, 2013, 07:48:31 PM
Tomato puree on crust, posted on Home Run Inn Pizza facebook page on March 6th.  This is what it said.

ďWe use tomato puree for our pizza sauce, not paste. That way, itís richer and bursting with zesty flavor. You know it when you taste it. "Like" if Home Run Inn pizza's sauce is your favorite ingredient!Ē

Norma,

I suspect that that may be more true of a pizza baked in one of HRI's pizzerias, especially if more sauce is used there than on its frozen pizzas. I thought that the sauce of the HRI frozen pizzas that I tried was rather pedestrian. It might have something to do with how the sauce has to be applied by sauce dispensing equipment in the facilities where HRI makes its frozen pizzas. That equipment has to work almost flawlessly to be able to make 100 pizzas a minute and about 400,000 pizzas a day. You can't have pesky things like herbs and other seasonings get in the way of that volume of production.

I would vote for the crust to be the favorite ingredient.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 11, 2013, 08:22:15 PM
Tomato puree on crust, posted on Home Run Inn Pizza facebook page on March 6th.  This is what it said.

ďWe use tomato puree for our pizza sauce, not paste. That way, itís richer and bursting with zesty flavor. You know it when you taste it. "Like" if Home Run Inn pizza's sauce is your favorite ingredient!Ē

Norma
If puree is paste with water added.......then how could puree be "richer" than paste.  ???   Oh, and "bursting"  ;D  with more zesty flavor.  :drool:
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 11, 2013, 08:42:09 PM
The way that Joe Perrino himself described the sauce way back around 1996 was as follows:

Home Run Inn makes its sauce with tomato puree instead of tomato paste ó ďIt gives us a richer flavor,Ē Mr. Perrino explained.
(Source: http://www.bsimagazine.com/Features/Company%20Profiles/US%20Archive/At%20its%20new%20plant%20Home%20Run%20Inn%20makes%20frozen%20pizza%20the%20pizzaria%20way.aspx?p=1&cck=1).

And at page 16 of the article at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14, Perrino states:

We use the highest grade puree that you could use.

In one of his videos, he says that the sauce is made from tomatoes from a supplier in Modesto. I take that to mean Stanislaus because that is where its offices are.

Facebook appears to be a good marketing medium for HRI. Most people who go there, with the exception of Norma, of course, know next to nothing about pizza beyond personal tastes. I laugh when I look at the HRI Facebook page. It's all about hyping HRI and its pizzas.

Peter
 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 11, 2013, 08:44:59 PM
Norma,

I suspect that that may be more true of a pizza baked in one of HRI's pizzerias, especially if more sauce is used there than on its frozen pizzas. I thought that the sauce of the HRI frozen pizzas that I tried was rather pedestrian. It might have something to do with how the sauce has to be applied by sauce dispensing equipment in the facilities where HRI makes its frozen pizzas. That equipment has to work almost flawlessly to be able to make 100 pizzas a minute and about 400,000 pizzas a day. You can't have pesky things like herbs and other seasonings get in the way of that volume of production.

I would vote for the crust to be the favorite ingredient.

Peter

Peter,

After I saw that picture of the crust with the tomato puree applied on facebook I thought about your post where you said there wasnít much sauce on your frozen pizzas.  I also suspect it is true that the pizzas baked in one of HRIís pizzerias would have more sauce applied.  I can understand that the equipment has to work almost flawlessly to be able to make all of those pizzas.  I sure would really like to be able to see how that happens so fast.  How do the members of this forum then decide how much sauce to apply if anyone wants to make an attempt on an HRI pizza? 

How would you describe the crusts of the frozen HRI pizzas you had?  I am still interested in really how those crusts are in texture and taste.

Norma.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 11, 2013, 08:54:26 PM
How do the members of this forum then decide how much sauce to apply if anyone wants to make an attempt on an HRI pizza? 


That's an easy one Norma...and I'll bet it's the same way you know how much to put on a Macks or Mancos.

Been eating them all my life.  ;)

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 11, 2013, 08:59:57 PM
The way that Joe Perrino himself described the sauce way back around 1996 was as follows:

Home Run Inn makes its sauce with tomato puree instead of tomato paste ó ďIt gives us a richer flavor,Ē Mr. Perrino explained.
(Source: http://www.bsimagazine.com/Features/Company%20Profiles/US%20Archive/At%20its%20new%20plant%20Home%20Run%20Inn%20makes%20frozen%20pizza%20the%20pizzaria%20way.aspx?p=1&cck=1).

And at page 16 of the article at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14, Perrino states:

We use the highest grade puree that you could use.

In one of his videos, he says that the sauce is made from tomatoes from a supplier in Modesto. I take that to mean Stanislaus because that is where its offices are.

Facebook appears to be a good marketing medium for HRI. Most people who go there, with the exception of Norma, of course, know next to nothing about pizza beyond personal tastes. I laugh when I look at the HRI Facebook page. It's all about hyping HRI and its pizzas.

Peter

Peter,

I might have to disagree with Joe Perrino, or at least say I really canĎt tell much of any difference if the right spices are added.  I wonder if Joe ever heard of the ďStandard of IdentityĒ for pizza sauces.  If HRI is using a Stanislaus product I do agree with him that they are good.

I agree with you about the HRI facebook page.  I just saw on facebook today that Buddyís is adding a new location and people are already getting excited about it.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 11, 2013, 09:00:10 PM
[quote author=norma427 link=topic=6112.msg242531#msg242531 date=1363049099
How would you describe the crusts of the frozen HRI pizzas you had?  I am still interested in really how those crusts are in texture and taste.

[/quote]

Norma, I know you were asking Pete, but I had some over the weekend and can share my thoughts.  The crust is very oily and very flaky.  I could see visble flaky layers in the dough.  Some of these layers "bent up" along the rim of the crust, almost as if the layers were all formed parallel to each other and then the edges were bent up to form the rim. Also, not only were the layers visible, but I could even peel them apart -- so I know I'm not just making this up.

The dough reminds me kind of like phyllo actually.

I'm not sure how the layers get in there.  I know Pete mentioned earlier in the thread that the dough wasn't laminated.  I'm not sure how else they could get the dough like that though.  Maybe the hot pressing has something to do with it?
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 11, 2013, 09:02:03 PM
That's an easy one Norma...and I'll bet it's the same way you know how much to put on a Macks or Mancos.

Been eating them all my life.  ;)

Bob,

Your are right!  ;D  Your amount of sauce looks good!

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 11, 2013, 09:05:42 PM
[quote author=norma427 link=topic=6112.msg242531#msg242531 date=1363049099
How would you describe the crusts of the frozen HRI pizzas you had?  I am still interested in really how those crusts are in texture and taste.



Norma, I know you were asking Pete, but I had some over the weekend and can share my thoughts.  The crust is very oily and very flaky.  I could see visble flaky layers in the dough.  Some of these layers "bent up" along the rim of the crust, almost as if the layers were all formed parallel to each other and then the edges were bent up to form the rim. Also, not only were the layers visible, but I could even peel them apart -- so I know I'm not just making this up.

The dough reminds me kind of like phyllo actually.

I'm not sure how the layers get in there.  I know Pete mentioned earlier in the thread that the dough wasn't laminated.  I'm not sure how else they could get the dough like that though.  Maybe the hot pressing has something to do with it?

CDNpielover,

Thank you for explaining how your crusts were on the frozen HRI pizzas you ate.  I really canít understand how they could get like that either.  :-\

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 11, 2013, 09:11:00 PM
Norma,

After I saw that picture of the crust with the tomato puree applied on facebook I thought about your post where you said there wasnít much sauce on your frozen pizzas.  I also suspect it is true that the pizzas baked in one of HRIís pizzerias would have more sauce applied.  I can understand that the equipment has to work almost flawlessly to be able to make all of those pizzas.  I sure would really like to be able to see how that happens so fast.  How do the members of this forum then decide how much sauce to apply if anyone wants to make an attempt on an HRI pizza?

I have never had an HRI pizza from one of its pizzerias, so I don't know how much sauce they use. It also depends on whether you are trying to emulate one of the pizzas made at an HRI pizzeria or one of the HRI frozen pizzas. Since the best data that I could find was for the HRI frozen pizzas, I tried to replicate one of their frozen pizzas so that it could be compared with a real HRI frozen pizza. I think I would use around 4-5 ounces of sauce for a clone of a 12" frozen HRI pizza.  My practice in dealing with matters like this is to start with the known pizza weight, assume a weight loss during baking, add that to the known pizza weight to come up with an "unbaked" weight, and then play around with the amounts of the ingredients until they equal that "unbaked" weight. For example, for a 12" HRI clone of a pepperoni pizza, I would use 15 ounces of dough, 10 ounces of mozzarella cheese (with the profile mentioned earlier), 4 ounces of sauce, and 1 ounce of pepperoni slices. The pepperoni pizza is easier to work with because there are only 14 slices of pepperoni on each 12" HRI frozen pepperoni pizza. That number never changes. Also, 14 slices of pepperoni, almost without regard to brand, weigh about 1 ounce. Of course, there can be exceptions to this, such as the Margherita brand of coarse grind pepperoni. The above combination of ingredients seems to best fit the HRI Nutrition Facts based on my analysis of the Nutrition Facts.


How would you describe the crusts of the frozen HRI pizzas you had?  I am still interested in really how those crusts are in texture and taste.

I thought that the description given by Loo (loowaters) at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51557.html#msg51557 was apt.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 11, 2013, 09:22:58 PM
Bob,

Your are right!  ;D  Your amount of sauce looks good!

Norma
Keep in mind though, I am a sauce lover and I'm sure I go a little heavier than HRI does. I understand that when you and Peter are cloning you like to get as close as possible. And that is the great thing about all of the cloned recipes...it can get someone who has never even had "xyz" pizza very close. And then one is free to tweak it however they like if they choose.

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 11, 2013, 09:35:00 PM
Norma,

I have never had an HRI pizza from one of its pizzerias, so I don't know how much sauce they use. It also depends on whether you are trying to emulate one of the pizzas made at an HRI pizzeria or one of the HRI frozen pizzas. Since the best data that I could find was for the HRI frozen pizzas, I tried to replicate one of their frozen pizzas so that it could be compared with a real HRI frozen pizza. I think I would use around 4-5 ounces of sauce for a clone of a 12" frozen HRI pizza.  My practice in dealing with matters like this is to start with the known pizza weight, assume a weight loss during baking, add that to the known pizza weight to come up with an "unbaked" weight, and then play around with the amounts of the ingredients until they equal that "unbaked" weight. For example, for a 12" HRI clone of a pepperoni pizza, I would use 15 ounces of dough, 10 ounces of mozzarella cheese (with the profile mentioned earlier), 4 ounces of sauce, and 1 ounce of pepperoni slices. The pepperoni pizza is easier to work with because there are only 14 slices of pepperoni on each 12" HRI frozen pepperoni pizza. That number never changes. Also, 14 slices of pepperoni, almost without regard to brand, weigh about 1 ounce. Of course, there can be exceptions to this, such as the Margherita brand of coarse grind pepperoni. The above combination of ingredients seems to best fit the HRI Nutrition Facts based on my analysis of the Nutrition Facts.

I thought that the description given by Loo (loowaters) at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51557.html#msg51557 was apt.

Peter

Peter,

I understand you are always precise in all that you do.  Thanks for posting how much the dough, mozzarella, sauce and pepperoni should weigh for a 12Ē frozen HRI pizza.  I would rather emulate one of the pizzas made at an HRI pizzeria, but you numbers are helpful. 

I agree that Looís description of the crust was very good.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 11, 2013, 09:43:47 PM
Peter,
Did you see lamination's in either of your 2 dissectees ?

Sat. night I had one of those little 5 or 6in jobbies, plain cheese because I needed a refresher on the crust taste...anyway, I'm just not seeing any of this "lamination" that's been being mentioned.

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 11, 2013, 09:45:02 PM
Norma, I know you were asking Pete, but I had some over the weekend and can share my thoughts.  The crust is very oily and very flaky.  I could see visble flaky layers in the dough.  Some of these layers "bent up" along the rim of the crust, almost as if the layers were all formed parallel to each other and then the edges were bent up to form the rim. Also, not only were the layers visible, but I could even peel them apart -- so I know I'm not just making this up.

The dough reminds me kind of like phyllo actually.

I'm not sure how the layers get in there.  I know Pete mentioned earlier in the thread that the dough wasn't laminated.  I'm not sure how else they could get the dough like that though.  Maybe the hot pressing has something to do with it?

CDNpielover,

HRI uses hot dough presses both in its stores and in its frozen pizza operations. At HRI's frozen pizza facilities, the rims of the pizzas are automatically formed as pressure (600-800 pounds) is applied to the dough ball for about 10 seconds. The rims are rounded, not pleated as is done by hand in the HRI pizzerias. Heat is also applied to the pressed skins and that helps set the crust somewhat but not much more than that. The crusts are also docked to minimize bubbling in the crust. I have read that in its pizzerias, HRI workers put the pressed crusts in a rack for about 15 minutes to "proof". If so, this suggests that there is still fermentation occurring in the crust. I don't think that pressing is the reason for the layering effect. Pizza operators routinely use presses, with or without heat, to make pizzas and the crusts are not flaky. A well known user of presses is California Pizza Kitchen (see video below). Costco also uses presses, and its pizza crusts are not flaky. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4CxXSoiDkY# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4CxXSoiDkY#)

I think that the layering effect is primarily due to the way that the dough is made, and, more specifically, the way that the ingredients are sequenced when making the dough. The bowls of the mixers used by HRI to make its frozen pizzas are "400- 500-lb bowls", so their mixers must be serious equipment. To replicate the processes that HRI uses in a home environment, I think I would use techniques such as are used to make pie dough but using oil rather than solid fats. I have been playing around with some ways of doing this but it is too early to say what, if anything, might do the job in a home setting. There may also be ancillary methods that have to be used even if a workable dough making method is achieved. An example might be letting the docked formed skin to proof for a while before dressing and baking. Bake temperatures and times may be other factors.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 11, 2013, 09:56:35 PM
Did you see lamination's in either of your 2 dissectees ?

Sat. night I had one of those little 5 or 6in jobbies, plain cheese because I needed a refresher on the crust taste...anyway, I'm just not seeing any of this "lamination" that's been being mentioned.

Bob,

Yes, I did. But it wasn't the type of layering that you might get, say, in a cracker-style crust. It is more like a pie crust in my opinion, with a fairly dense crumb but with a flakiness when you try to peel it apart. Except for the rim of an HRI crust, which can be quite hard, the crust inside of the rim can be more tender.

Lamination suggests that there are distinct layers that are superimposed on each other, either by physical placement of sheets on top of each other or through the use of folding methods. A hot press does none of that.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 11, 2013, 10:09:48 PM
Peter,

I use a pie dough recipe of my mom's that uses lots of regular vegetable oil.  I think it calls for the oil not to be stirred into the water and think there is also cold water used.  I have to look up that recipe and see what happens when I make another attempt on an HRI pizza.  The crust on that pie dough does get very flaky even if it is rolled out.  It needs to be rolled between wax paper though.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 11, 2013, 10:10:21 PM
with a fairly dense crumb but with a flakiness when you try to peel it apart.
Now that I did see when I picked at it with the tip of a knife.... ;)

and even on the 'lil mini one it seemed more pronounced right where the bottom meets the formed rim.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 11, 2013, 10:49:28 PM
I use a pie dough recipe of my mom's that uses lots of regular vegetable oil.  I think it calls for the oil not to be stirred into the water and think there is also cold water used.  I have to look up that recipe and see what happens when I make another attempt on an HRI pizza.  The crust on that pie dough does get very flaky even if it is rolled out.  It needs to be rolled between wax paper though.

Norma,

Making oil-based pie crusts has long been the province of people with health and nutrition concerns. Remembering this, I found one of my old health food cookbooks that had a recipe for an oil-based crust. The recipe calls for sifting all of the dry ingredients and adding a mixture of the oil and water into the dry ingredients, using a fork to combine everything.

In HRI's frozen food facilities, the flour goes directly into its mixer bowls, without sifting beyond the sifting that is done at the miller's facilities. I would think that it would be overly energy intensive and costly for HRI to cool down the water for its dough when they are making over a million pizzas a month. According to one of the most recent articles on the HRI frozen pizza operation, HRI kneads the dough for nine minutes. That is not a lot for the dough batch sizes they are making. So, like a pie dough you don't want to over mix the dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 12, 2013, 07:05:24 AM
Norma,

Making oil-based pie crusts has long been the province of people with health and nutrition concerns. Remembering this, I found one of my old health food cookbooks that had a recipe for an oil-based crust. The recipe calls for sifting all of the dry ingredients and adding a mixture of the oil and water into the dry ingredients, using a fork to combine everything.

In HRI's frozen food facilities, the flour goes directly into its mixer bowls, without sifting beyond the sifting that is done at the miller's facilities. I would think that it would be overly energy intensive and costly for HRI to cool down the water for its dough when they are making over a million pizzas a month. According to one of the most recent articles on the HRI frozen pizza operation, HRI kneads the dough for nine minutes. That is not a lot for the dough batch sizes they are making. So, like a pie dough you don't want to over mix the dough.

Peter

Peter,

I didnít know making oil-based pie crust has long been the province of people with health and nutrition concerns.  I think HRIís method at their frozen food facilities could be something like the recipe you looked up in your old health cookbooks.  I also had read that recent article that HRI kneads the dough for nine minutes.  I agree that isnít a lot of time to mix for those large batches.  Of course, I really donít think we are trying to make a HRI crust as flaky as a regular pie crust, but since I never tasted a real HRI pizza crust I really donít know.

I posted my momís pie crust recipe at Reply 13 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19002.msg185689.html#msg185689 and my momís recipe was modified a little from a Betty Crocker recipe and might be like ones that you have looked at recently.  That seems to be a lot of vegetable oil for the amount of flour to me.  Chau also said he liked that pie crust recipe modified in the post before mine.  I never really used cold water out of the fridge, but just cold tap water.  That method calls for sifting flour too, but donít think there really needs to be any sifting of flours the way flours are milled today.  The salt, water and flour are added to the flour mixture. 

In Looís opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.0.html and from the Nutrition Facts of an HRI pizza the yeast is listed above the salt and you recently I think posted that more than 2% IDY could be used.  I just wonder then how the dough could be cold fermented for 2-3 days in the HRI pizzerias, without multiple punch downs, unless they keep the dough really cold, or the oil helps to retard the dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 12, 2013, 09:59:59 AM
Norma,

I posted my momís pie crust recipe at Reply 13 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19002.msg185689.html#msg185689 and my momís recipe was modified a little from a Betty Crocker recipe and might be like ones that you have looked at recently.  That seems to be a lot of vegetable oil for the amount of flour to me.

Your mother's pie crust recipe that you referenced essentially looks like this from a baker's percent standpoint, although the actual baker's percents will depend on how the flour is measured out volumetrically:

All-Purpose Flour (100%):
Water (28.98%):
Salt (1.1%):
Crisco Oil (42.72%):
Total (172.8%):
255.13 g  |  9 oz | 0.56 lbs
73.94 g  |  2.61 oz | 0.16 lbs
2.81 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
108.99 g | 3.84 oz | 0.24 lbs | 8 tbsp | 0.5 cups
440.87 g | 15.55 oz | 0.97 lbs | TF = N/A

If one were to play around with the above hydration and oil amounts, and add some yeast and double the amount of salt, you would essentially have an HRI type of dough. Unfortunately, there is no way of calculating the hydration of the HRI dough used to make their frozen pizzas. In part, I believe that that is because there is an error in the HRI Nutrition Facts. If I am correct on this, it could be that that error was used to do other calculations that are now reflected in the Nutrition Facts.


In Looís opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.0.html and from the Nutrition Facts of an HRI pizza the yeast is listed above the salt and you recently I think posted that more than 2% IDY could be used.  I just wonder then how the dough could be cold fermented for 2-3 days in the HRI pizzerias, without multiple punch downs, unless they keep the dough really cold, or the oil helps to retard the dough.

As you know, until recently, I assumed that HRI cold fermented the dough that it uses for its frozen pizzas. Now, I am not so sure. For example, if you look at the article about the HRI frozen pizza oprations at http://www.bsimagazine.com/Features/Company%20Profiles/US%20Archive/At%20its%20new%20plant%20Home%20Run%20Inn%20makes%20frozen%20pizza%20the%20pizzaria%20way.aspx?p=1&cck=1, you will see the following description of how HRI made its dough at that time (around 1996):

After mixing, the pizza dough is allowed to ferment in tubs containing 40-lb batches. The company likes the unique flavor that natural fermentation produces. Tubs are cleaned and sanitized between batches.

   ďOur dough is given the time to develop flavor naturally,Ē Mr. Perrino said. ďNo additives are used to speed up the process. We follow Ďold world' methods that rely on time and natural fermentation.Ē

   After the proper amount of floor time, the dough is dumped into a Benier bread system that divides and rounds individual dough pieces and puts them through a period of intermediate proofing. From the proofer, the dough balls travel along an overhead delivery conveyor into the pressing room. A chute sends the balls to a shallow bin, and an operator manually places the balls on the conveyor leading to the presses. Company engineers are working on an automatic placement system to be installed later.

   Dough balls travel through one of two hot crust presses. When Home Run Inn first automated its pizza crust process in 1990, it switched from manual stretching to hot press processing and achieved a threefold increase in throughput. The dough is formed in the cavity of the press and enough heat is applied to ďsetĒ the shape. The company anticipates installing a third press within a few months.

   Formed crusts then leave the presses and enter a impingement-style forced-air oven. A short bake stabilizes the crust, which is still warm as it continues into the topping room. Here a series of depositors, custom-configured into three lanes, apply the proper proportions of sauce, cheese, sausage and other condiments. Operators stand alongside the topping lanes to visually inspect each pizza for proper coverage.

   Conveyors carry the pizzas into the oven room where a U.S.D.A.-compliant, all-stainless-steel Stein JSO III Jet Stream oven fully cooks each pizza.

   Pizzas emerge from the oven hot, at temperatures around 165įF (74įC).


As I read the above quoted material, I conclude that the fermentation is an ambient temperature fermentation, not a cold fermentation.

Now, if we fast forward to the latest article we know of that describes what appears to be the current HRI frozen pizza operations, at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14, you will see a discussion at pages 24 and 26 (of the article) that essentially describes the dough management as follows: 1) Make the dough as described at page 26, 2) put the dough into to the dough chunker to form 40-lb blocks, 3) divide the dough into pieces and form them into round balls, 4) manually check the weights of the dough balls, 5) rack the dough balls, and 6) form the dough balls into skins using the dough presses.

Where is the fermentation step(s)? We really don't know. Maybe it is between steps 5 and 6 described above. And I believe docking takes place after step 6.

Now, to answer your specific question about how HRI manages its dough in its pizzerias with the high amounts of yeast as we have been discussing, it is possible that HRI uses less yeast for the dough for its pizzerias than it uses to make its frozen dough. I'm not sure where I read it, but I believe that the dough for the HRI pizzerias is made at a facility that is separate from the frozen pizza facilities (although the frozen pizza facilities make the sauce and processes the cheese and sausage for the entire HRI operations, including the pizzerias). However, even if I am wrong about the amount of yeast used for the dough for the HRI pizzerias, my cold fermentation tests show that even with 2.5% IDY, the dough during cold fermentation does not explode out of its storage container. The dough will rise fairly quickly as it cools down in the refrigerator, and may even double or triple in volume (after about 8 hours in my refrigerator), after about a day of cold fermentation everything comes to a halt, and the dough no longer rises and just sits there. I believe that the high amount of oil is at least partly responsible for the orderly behavior of the dough. The dough is firm to the touch, not soft and billowy that it tempts you to want to punch it down. You can read more about how the dough is handled in HRI's pizzerias in the article excerpted at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51590.html#msg51590.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 12, 2013, 02:33:08 PM
I'm not sure where I read it, but I believe that the dough for the HRI pizzerias is made at a facility that is separate from the frozen pizza facilities (although the frozen pizza facilities make the sauce and processes the cheese and sausage for the entire HRI operations, including the pizzerias).

Norma,

I'm not sure if this is where I first read that the HRI pizzeria and frozen pizza operations are kept separate, but this March 2012 article at 
http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/inc-well/Home-Run-Inns-Joe-Perrino-on-How-to-Break-into-the-Frozen-Foods-Market-140004953.html says:

My plant basically produces all of our raw ingredients for our restaurants out of the same location and then half of the plant is support for restaurants and the other half is for frozen pizza production.

I also found an older article through a library search that I couldn't cite, but when HRI opened up one of its frozen production facilities, the article said:

The restaurant commissary will be relocated to the new production facility. All of the raw products are prepared at the commissary and trucked to the three restaurants for assembly.

I would think that HRI would want to have a separation of its two businesses so that the pizzeria side is not subjected to the same kind of governmental and regulatory scrutiny as the frozen pizza side.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 12, 2013, 09:20:56 PM
Peter,

Thank you for both of your replies.  When I have more time tomorrow I will read both of them more in depth so I understand what all you posted.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 12, 2013, 10:52:12 PM
I'm just not seeing any of this "lamination" that's been being mentioned.

This is from an Ultrathin HRI, and you can clearly see separate layers.  If your frozen HRI pizzas don't cook up this way, you're doing it wrong or just haven't noticed.  ;D



Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 12, 2013, 10:58:39 PM
Is it possible there is some kind of folding involved somewhere, ŗ la puff pastry or the way ATK did their DD?
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 12, 2013, 11:02:51 PM
This is from an Ultrathin HRI, and you can clearly see separate layers.  If your frozen HRI pizzas don't cook up this way, you're doing it wrong or just haven't noticed.  ;D
Thanks Garvey,
I believe that does remind me of what I have seen from the "ultra thin" HRI frozen pizza.
Just not seeing that at all on their regular crust.  Maybe they selling 'ol Bob some damaged goods.... >:(

Are you seeing that same pronounced "layers" on their regular style, such as the 2 pies that Peter just recently baked and reported only a pie crust like "flakiness"?

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 12, 2013, 11:04:00 PM
That flakiness definately happens in their regular crust as well.  If you're not seeing it then I don't know why, it was ultra apparent in the frozen pizzas Ive made.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 12, 2013, 11:09:45 PM
What CDNpielover said.  Same dough in the regular--just more of it.  And it absolutely flakes up like that.

Believe me, a frozen HRI is actually a little tricky to cook up properly.  But when you give it a long enough bake, you will be rewarded for your patience.  Anything less than correct, and it's gummy and not so great and certainly not flaky .

Cheers,
Garvey
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 12, 2013, 11:19:45 PM
BTW, Bob, I saw earlier that you were lamenting a lack of sauce (or was that someone else?).  I found that odd, because HRI is among the sauciest pies available in the frozen aisle.  Ultrathin is even saucier, relative to the crust thickness, etc.  That being said, I do sometimes get a drier one or a few dry ones that were made on the same date.  But the really saucy ones are more the norm... in my experience, anyway.  (And we pretty much have had HRI weekly for the past eight years or so, since distribution began down South.  If I don't make pizza, we never order out: we have HRI.)

Cheers,
Garvey
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 12, 2013, 11:26:47 PM
Ok great....that mini(6in) one I did Sat. was actually almost overdone(my fault)and it did not have a gum layer, just as my homemade one on Fri. did not have gum. I just went dumpster diving and found that Sats. mini was dated for Sept.'12.

I'm buying some fresh full size ones tomorrow(sending some off in dry ice for Norma too) and hopefully will get to see what the heck is going on here...going to get some Ultra's also.

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 12, 2013, 11:30:29 PM
BTW, Bob, I saw earlier that you were lamenting a lack of sauce (or was that someone else?).  I found that odd, because HRI is among the sauciest pies available in the frozen aisle.  Ultrathin is even saucier, relative to the crust thickness, etc.  That being said, I do sometimes get a drier one or a few dry ones that were made on the same date.  But the really saucy ones are more the norm... in my experience, anyway.  (And we pretty much have had HRI weekly for the past eight years or so, since distribution began down South.  If I don't make pizza, we never order out: we have HRI.)

Cheers,
Garvey
No, I think Peter's nutri. facts are indicating a lesser sauce than I was recommending to Norma....I posted that I'm a sauce freak and the "official for cloning" MMV...
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 12, 2013, 11:32:17 PM
FWIW, I've had great luck cooking at a lower temp for longer (e.g., 410o for 20-25 mins instead of 450o for 12-17 ... or whatever the box says).  Of course, "know thine oven" and all that jazz.. :).

Oh--that's right.  I share the "sauce freak" disease right with ya, man.  :chef:

Cheers,
Garvey
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 12, 2013, 11:39:29 PM
FWIW, I've had great luck cooking at a lower temp for longer (e.g., 410o for 20-25 mins instead of 450o for 12-17 ... or whatever the box says).  Of course, "know thine oven" and all that jazz.. :).

Oh--that's right.  I share the "sauce freak" disease right with ya, man.  :chef:

Cheers,
Garvey
Yeah...I did that mini @ 425 and thawed as per a rec. I saw somewhere....plain chees and the top tried to get away from me but like I said... no gum...jus no damn layers either though.  :(

On a happier note... I found out the place I'm buying from tomorrow also has Geno"s East frozen DD. Gonna give that a whirl too what the hey. Have you had that Geno's frozen yet Garvey?
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 13, 2013, 12:07:19 AM
I don't think I've had that one.  Uno, perhaps...
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 13, 2013, 09:00:34 AM
Norma,
 
Your mother's pie crust recipe that you referenced essentially looks like this from a baker's percent standpoint, although the actual baker's percents will depend on how the flour is measured out volumetrically:

All-Purpose Flour (100%):
Water (28.98%):
Salt (1.1%):
Crisco Oil (42.72%):
Total (172.8%):
255.13 g  |  9 oz | 0.56 lbs
73.94 g  |  2.61 oz | 0.16 lbs
2.81 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
108.99 g | 3.84 oz | 0.24 lbs | 8 tbsp | 0.5 cups
440.87 g | 15.55 oz | 0.97 lbs | TF = N/A

If one were to play around with the above hydration and oil amounts, and add some yeast and double the amount of salt, you would essentially have an HRI type of dough. Unfortunately, there is no way of calculating the hydration of the HRI dough used to make their frozen pizzas. In part, I believe that that is because there is an error in the HRI Nutrition Facts. If I am correct on this, it could be that that error was used to do other calculations that are now reflected in the Nutrition Facts.

As you know, until recently, I assumed that HRI cold fermented the dough that it uses for its frozen pizzas. Now, I am not so sure. For example, if you look at the article about the HRI frozen pizza oprations at http://www.bsimagazine.com/Features/Company%20Profiles/US%20Archive/At%20its%20new%20plant%20Home%20Run%20Inn%20makes%20frozen%20pizza%20the%20pizzaria%20way.aspx?p=1&cck=1, you will see the following description of how HRI made its dough at that time (around 1996):

After mixing, the pizza dough is allowed to ferment in tubs containing 40-lb batches. The company likes the unique flavor that natural fermentation produces. Tubs are cleaned and sanitized between batches.

   ďOur dough is given the time to develop flavor naturally,Ē Mr. Perrino said. ďNo additives are used to speed up the process. We follow Ďold world' methods that rely on time and natural fermentation.Ē

   After the proper amount of floor time, the dough is dumped into a Benier bread system that divides and rounds individual dough pieces and puts them through a period of intermediate proofing. From the proofer, the dough balls travel along an overhead delivery conveyor into the pressing room. A chute sends the balls to a shallow bin, and an operator manually places the balls on the conveyor leading to the presses. Company engineers are working on an automatic placement system to be installed later.

   Dough balls travel through one of two hot crust presses. When Home Run Inn first automated its pizza crust process in 1990, it switched from manual stretching to hot press processing and achieved a threefold increase in throughput. The dough is formed in the cavity of the press and enough heat is applied to ďsetĒ the shape. The company anticipates installing a third press within a few months.

   Formed crusts then leave the presses and enter a impingement-style forced-air oven. A short bake stabilizes the crust, which is still warm as it continues into the topping room. Here a series of depositors, custom-configured into three lanes, apply the proper proportions of sauce, cheese, sausage and other condiments. Operators stand alongside the topping lanes to visually inspect each pizza for proper coverage.

   Conveyors carry the pizzas into the oven room where a U.S.D.A.-compliant, all-stainless-steel Stein JSO III Jet Stream oven fully cooks each pizza.

   Pizzas emerge from the oven hot, at temperatures around 165įF (74įC).


As I read the above quoted material, I conclude that the fermentation is an ambient temperature fermentation, not a cold fermentation.

Now, if we fast forward to the latest article we know of that describes what appears to be the current HRI frozen pizza operations, at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14, you will see a discussion at pages 24 and 26 (of the article) that essentially describes the dough management as follows: 1) Make the dough as described at page 26, 2) put the dough into to the dough chunker to form 40-lb blocks, 3) divide the dough into pieces and form them into round balls, 4) manually check the weights of the dough balls, 5) rack the dough balls, and 6) form the dough balls into skins using the dough presses.

Where is the fermentation step(s)? We really don't know. Maybe it is between steps 5 and 6 described above. And I believe docking takes place after step 6.

Now, to answer your specific question about how HRI manages its dough in its pizzerias with the high amounts of yeast as we have been discussing, it is possible that HRI uses less yeast for the dough for its pizzerias than it uses to make its frozen dough. I'm not sure where I read it, but I believe that the dough for the HRI pizzerias is made at a facility that is separate from the frozen pizza facilities (although the frozen pizza facilities make the sauce and processes the cheese and sausage for the entire HRI operations, including the pizzerias). However, even if I am wrong about the amount of yeast used for the dough for the HRI pizzerias, my cold fermentation tests show that even with 2.5% IDY, the dough during cold fermentation does not explode out of its storage container. The dough will rise fairly quickly as it cools down in the refrigerator, and may even double or triple in volume (after about 8 hours in my refrigerator), after about a day of cold fermentation everything comes to a halt, and the dough no longer rises and just sits there. I believe that the high amount of oil is at least partly responsible for the orderly behavior of the dough. The dough is firm to the touch, not soft and billowy that it tempts you to want to punch it down. You can read more about how the dough is handled in HRI's pizzerias in the article excerpted at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51590.html#msg51590.

Peter

Norma,

I'm not sure if this is where I first read that the HRI pizzeria and frozen pizza operations are kept separate, but this March 2012 article at 
http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/inc-well/Home-Run-Inns-Joe-Perrino-on-How-to-Break-into-the-Frozen-Foods-Market-140004953.html says:

My plant basically produces all of our raw ingredients for our restaurants out of the same location and then half of the plant is support for restaurants and the other half is for frozen pizza production.

I also found an older article through a library search that I couldn't cite, but when HRI opened up one of its frozen production facilities, the article said:

The restaurant commissary will be relocated to the new production facility. All of the raw products are prepared at the commissary and trucked to the three restaurants for assembly.

I would think that HRI would want to have a separation of its two businesses so that the pizzeria side is not subjected to the same kind of governmental and regulatory scrutiny as the frozen pizza side.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for doing the calculations to figure out what my motherís pie crust recipe looks like in bakerís percents.  I find that if one were to play around with hydration and oil amount, and add some yeast and double the amount of salt, then that would essentially have an HRI type of pizza dough.  Do you how any idea of percents I should try for my next attempt and also what TF I should try?

I find it interesting that you believe that there is an error in the HRI Nutrition Facts.  Only you would be able to figure that out.

I know you assumed that HRI cold fermented the dough that it used for its frozen pizza operations.  I see why you now concluded that the fermentation is an ambient temperature fermentation, not a cold fermentation.  I can see why there is a question about the fermentation steps.  I find it interesting that you believe docking takes place after step 6.

Thank you for answering my specific question about using how amounts of yeast in HRI dough for its pizzerias.  I can understand that the high amount of oil could be partly responsible for the orderly behavior of the dough.  I also enjoyed hearing about your recent cold fermentation tests showing that even with 2.5% IDY that the dough during cold fermentation does not explode out of its storage container.  I also find that interesting that after about a day the fermentation everything comes to a halt. 

Thanks also for posting that you would think HRI would want to have a separation of its two businesses so that the pizzeria side in not subjected to the same kind of governmental and regulatory scrutiny as the frozen pizza side.  That makes sense to me.  I think I also read something about that on the web, but I didnít save where I read it. 

I donít know if you saw this article from a blogger how HRI was back in 1960.  http://onekentuckywriter.blogspot.com/2008/01/home-run-innand-louie.html  I think the blogger does a good job of explaining how the workers tossed the HRI pizza dough high in the air and what HRI was like back in 1960. 

When you did your experiments for the HRI frozen pizza dough could you also toss the dough?  I find it hard to imagine basically what is a pie crust dough could be tossed, but I havenít tried any experiments to see if that might be able to be done.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 13, 2013, 10:24:30 AM
Garvey,

You raise some good points.

With respect to the HRI Ultra-Thin crust pizzas, I have never read anything about how they are made in HRI's frozen pizza plants. However, while some thin-crust pizzas, like cracker-style crusts, can be laminated (member fazzari of this forum is an expert on this approach), it isn't absolutely necessary to get what appears to be a laminated, flaky crust. However, to get the flaky characteristic in an Ultra-Thin type of product, it definitely helps to have the skin very thin (for example, a thickness factor of around 0.05-0.07) and to pre-bake or par-bake the skin. Docking the skin is also often a good idea. These steps seem consistent and compatible with HRI's methods used in its frozen pizza plants. Like you, I am inclined to believe that the same dough is used for the thin crusted pizzas as the basic ones.

I believe I was the one who commented on the paucity of sauce on the HRI pizzas that I dismembered. However, in actual practice, I am sure that more sauce is used than what I measured. What I measured reflected a loss of water during baking. Typically, a pizza sauce has around 88-92% water. However, not all of the water is lost during baking. Unfortunately, there is no good way to calculate the weight loss of sauce on a pizza, and especially one that has undergone some baking before it is in the hands of the consumer. There are also weight losses for the mozzarella cheese (a low moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese is around 46-48% water) and in the dough. Since it is difficult to assess these losses, the approach I take is to make an estimate of the extent of those losses and factor them into the quantities of ingredients used to make the unbaked clone. For example, for a basic HRI frozen pizza, like a plain cheese pizza, or a pepperoni or sausage pizza, I would use something like 10% as a loss percentage.

I also agree with you on the need to bake the pizza long enough and at the right oven temperature to get the crust to simulate a frozen HRI crust. In my case, by completely defrosting the HRI frozen pizzas to conduct tests on them, I no doubt changed the thermodynamics of the pizzas and also the bake times. However, based on my limited experience with an HRI type of dough, specifically, in a home clone setting, I would suggest that the skin be docked and pre-baked for several minutes, maybe three minutes on a dark anodized perforated disk or cutter pan, at around 475-490 degrees F, before dressing and baking it. In its frozen pizza plants, HRI reportedly uses a 90-second pre-bake. That is for a crust without a carrier. That might work in HRI's conveyor ovens but I do not think that that is long enough in a typical home oven, especially if a carrier is used. Since ovens vary by type and from one brand to another, this is something that will usually require some experimentation to achieve the desired end results. The advantage of the pre-bake or par-bake is that it allows one to use more toppings without turning the pizza crust soft. The impression I have gotten from my reading is that the HRI pizzas from one of its pizzerias have a more tender crust than the frozen ones.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 13, 2013, 10:31:13 AM
Great stuff, Peter.  Thanks for the details.

BTW, it's funny that HRI calls that product "Ultrathin," because it is actually quite a substantial crust.  It is only "thin" relative to their main product, which is thicker than is commonly understood in the world of Chicago thin.

Cheers,
Garvey
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 13, 2013, 11:17:38 AM
Norma,

Thank you for doing the calculations to figure out what my motherís pie crust recipe looks like in bakerís percents.  I find that if one were to play around with hydration and oil amount, and add some yeast and double the amount of salt, then that would essentially have an HRI type of pizza dough.  Do you how any idea of percents I should try for my next attempt and also what TF I should try?

Do you mean percentages of water and oil to convert your mother's pie crust recipe into something that is like an HRI dough?

I find it interesting that you believe that there is an error in the HRI Nutrition Facts.  Only you would be able to figure that out.

I am sure you will recall how Craig and I were so positive that the Carbohydrate number for Pepe's frozen dough was in error. In HRI's case, I feel just as strongly, maybe even stronger, but for a different item in HRI's Nutrition Facts. Unfortunately, I may never know, or I will have to wait to see if they ever do anything about it on the pizza boxes for their frozen pizzas and on their website. The FDA is pretty good about giving companies a reasonable grace period to use up existing packaging materials.

I know you assumed that HRI cold fermented the dough that it used for its frozen pizza operations.  I see why you now concluded that the fermentation is an ambient temperature fermentation, not a cold fermentation.  I can see why there is a question about the fermentation steps.  I find it interesting that you believe docking takes place after step 6.

I have read that the HRI skins are docked on both sides. And, indeed, when I have examined the HRI crusts for their frozen pizzas, the docking holes are visible in the crusts, both top and bottom. I do not believe that HRI actually docks on both sides but rather docks the skins from the top but with sufficient penetration to have the docking holes show in the bottom of the crust. From page 24 of the article at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14, you can see the dough balls heading toward the hot dough presses. So, the docking must take place after the skins come out of the dough presses. At page 26 of the article, you can actually see the docking holes, with about 1" spacings. If you use the Zoom feature, it looks like the docked skins are emerging from the dough press area.

When you did your experiments for the HRI frozen pizza dough could you also toss the dough?  I find it hard to imagine basically what is a pie crust dough could be tossed, but I havenít tried any experiments to see if that might be able to be done.

I did not try to toss the dough skins. I think a 12" skin should be manageable but I will have to try it sometime. Much has been said by HRI and others that the dough formulation now used is the same as was used back in the 1940s. I have wondered about that. The key thing with an HRI clone dough is to get the hydration and oil quantity in proper balance. By that, I mean that you should be able to get the hand-formed fluted rim to be able to stand up and stay there without falling or drooping too much for at least until you have been able to dress the pizza. The photo that I use as a guide for the fluted rim is the one at Reply 195 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg235707.html#msg235707. But even if there is a little droop, it is easy to reform the rim. It can even be done with a pre-baked skin if the pre-bake time is not too long and has set the skin too much. In HRI's pizzerias, they even let their skins proof for about 10-15 minutes after they come out of the hot dough presses. So, the heat of the presses (for about 10 seconds) does not stop the dough from fermenting. The proof time also helps the skins recover from the degassing of the skins by the application of pressure to the skins by the dough presses. Of course, the latter step is not one that is used at HRI's frozen pizza plants.

I have used a rolling pin to form the skins, much like was done in the early days when HRI used dough sheeters to get a uniform thickness, and quickly, but it is almost as easy to form the skins to the desired size by hand. You should, of course, make the skin a bit larger than the desired size to allow for the formation of the rim. For example, for a 12" skin, you might use 13" and form the rim with one inch of that (1/2" on each side). After baking, you can expect to lose about a half inch on the pizza. All of the frozen HRI pizzas I tested were 11.5", so that is the desired final diameter. The importance of this is because you want the part of the crust inside the rim to be of the right thickness and of the right texture (and, hopefully, flaky). I have found that the skins can be docked either before placing on the carrier (in my case, a dark anodized perforated disk or cutter pan) or while on the carrier, as is apparently done in HRI's pizzerias. I would not dock on a pizza screen.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 13, 2013, 02:08:47 PM
Norma,

Do you mean percentages of water and oil to convert your mother's pie crust recipe into something that is like an HRI dough?

I am sure you will recall how Craig and I were so positive that the Carbohydrate number for Pepe's frozen dough was in error. In HRI's case, I feel just as strongly, maybe even stronger, but for a different item in HRI's Nutrition Facts. Unfortunately, I may never know, or I will have to wait to see if they ever do anything about it on the pizza boxes for their frozen pizzas and on their website. The FDA is pretty good about giving companies a reasonable grace period to use up existing packaging materials.

I have read that the HRI skins are docked on both sides. And, indeed, when I have examined the HRI crusts for their frozen pizzas, the docking holes are visible in the crusts, both top and bottom. I do not believe that HRI actually docks on both sides but rather docks the skins from the top but with sufficient penetration to have the docking holes show in the bottom of the crust. From page 24 of the article at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14, (http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14,) you can see the dough balls heading toward the hot dough presses. So, the docking must take place after the skins come out of the dough presses. At page 26 of the article, you can actually see the docking holes, with about 1" spacings. If you use the Zoom feature, it looks like the docked skins are emerging from the dough press area.

I did not try to toss the dough skins. I think a 12" skin should be manageable but I will have to try it sometime. Much has been said by HRI and others that the dough formulation now used is the same as was used back in the 1940s. I have wondered about that. The key thing with an HRI clone dough is to get the hydration and oil quantity in proper balance. By that, I mean that you should be able to get the hand-formed fluted rim to be able to stand up and stay there without falling or drooping too much for at least until you have been able to dress the pizza. The photo that I use as a guide for the fluted rim is the one at Reply 195 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg235707.html#msg235707. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg235707.html#msg235707.) But even if there is a little droop, it is easy to reform the rim. It can even be done with a pre-baked skin if the pre-bake time is not too long and has set the skin too much. In HRI's pizzerias, they even let their skins proof for about 10-15 minutes after they come out of the hot dough presses. So, the heat of the presses (for about 10 seconds) does not stop the dough from fermenting. The proof time also helps the skins recover from the degassing of the skins by the application of pressure to the skins by the dough presses. Of course, the latter step is not one that is used at HRI's frozen pizza plants.

I have used a rolling pin to form the skins, much like was done in the early days when HRI used dough sheeters to get a uniform thickness, and quickly, but it is almost as easy to form the skins to the desired size by hand. You should, of course, make the skin a bit larger than the desired size to allow for the formation of the rim. For example, for a 12" skin, you might use 13" and form the rim with one inch of that (1/2" on each side). After baking, you can expect to lose about a half inch on the pizza. All of the frozen HRI pizzas I tested were 11.5", so that is the desired final diameter. The importance of this is because you want the part of the crust inside the rim to be of the right thickness and of the right texture (and, hopefully, flaky). I have found that the skins can be docked either before placing on the carrier (in my case, a dark anodized perforated disk or cutter pan) or while on the carrier, as is apparently done in HRI's pizzerias. I would not dock on a pizza screen.

Peter

Peter,

Yes, I mean percentages of water and oil to convert my motherís pie crust recipe into something that is like an HRI dough if that is possible, but if it isnít possible that is okay.

I do recall how Craig and you were so positive that the Carbohydrate number for Pepeís frozen dough was in error.  I understand now how you feel just as strongly, or maybe even stronger about a different item in HRIís Nutrition Facts.  I wish you good luck in finding out what you want to know.

Thanks for telling me that you read the HRI skins are docked on both sides, but their specialized equipment probably is doing that in one step.  I didnít realize anyone could use the zoom feature on a photo, but found that interesting.  I see now that the docking holes  after the skins came out of the dough presses. 

I know that HRI and others said the dough formulation now used is the same dough formulation used back in 1940ís, but I also wonder about that.  I understand the key thing would be to get the hydration and oil quantity in proper balance.  I saw that photo that you use as a guide for the fluted rim at Reply 195.  I didnít know that could be done with a pre-baked skin if the pre-bake time is not too long as to set the crust too much.  I do recall though that in HRIís pizzerias they let their skins proof for about 10-15 minutes after they come out of the hot dough presses.  I can understand that the skins then can recover from the degassing of the skins by the application of pressure to the skins by the dough presses.  I recall when I had a hot dough press how my dough balls wanted to contact back and then never really used that hot dough press anymore, but do recall Tom Lehmann posting that usually something has to be added to the dough so the dough balls donít want to contact back, but I could see if AP flour is used and not a lot of mixing time, then the skins wouldnít want to contact back like mine did.  I now wish I still had my hot dough press to play around with.  :-D I also recall when I was trying to work on pre-baking those UltraThin crusts what steps needed to be taken to make sure they were pre-baked right. 

Maybe I will also use a rolling pin in my next attempt to form the skins.  I didnít think about making the skin a bit larger than the desired size to allow for the formation of the rim.  Thanks for reminding me of that.  I will have to pick up my docker at market again.  I did have it home last weekend, but then took it back to market.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 13, 2013, 02:11:41 PM


BTW, it's funny that HRI calls that product "Ultrathin," because it is actually quite a substantial crust.  It is only "thin" relative to their main product, which is thicker than is commonly understood in the world of Chicago thin.

Cheers,
Garvey

Garvey,

I recall reading somewhere that the HRI crusts were called something like thin/thick or something like that awhile ago, but don't recall where I saw that posted.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 13, 2013, 02:43:23 PM
Peter,
Do you think I should or should not use the pie baking technique of "blind baking"(pie weights) when I pre bake my next crust? Thanks.
Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 13, 2013, 02:56:38 PM
Do you think I should or should not use the pie baking technique of "blind baking"(pie weights) when I pre bake my next crust? Thanks.

Bob,

That's a good question, for which I do not have a good answer. Whenever I have pre-baked or par-baked a crust, for whatever the style of pizza, I would look for the crust to turn a light brown and then remove it from the oven. The time for this to happen could vary from one such crust to another. It perhaps won't hurt to try blind baking but I can't say how that will affect the results. I was trying to emulate what HRI does in its conveyor ovens at its frozen pizza plants but using my home oven.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 13, 2013, 03:14:28 PM
Yes, I mean percentages of water and oil to convert my motherís pie crust recipe into something that is like an HRI dough if that is possible, but if it isnít possible that is okay.

Norma,

You could try hydration in a range of 49-53% and corn oil in the range of 18-20%. Whatever combination you use, you will want to keep the combined percent values of those ingredients at around 72%. If you plan to cold ferment the dough, you could use around 2.5% IDY. That value might also work if you would rather try for an emergency or same-day dough. For salt, I would go with 2%.

If you elect to go with cold fermentation, I perhaps would not go beyond two days. For dough preparation purposes, you might follow the instructions you posted for your mother's pie crust recipe. You might even be able to use the wax paper method for rolling out the dough. However, for a 10" pizza size, if that is what you decide to make, you will have to scale your mother's pie crust recipe back. You might try using a thickness factor of around 0.13 and maybe a bowl residue compensation.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 13, 2013, 05:41:24 PM
Norma,

You could try hydration in a range of 49-53% and corn oil in the range of 18-20%. Whatever combination you use, you will want to keep the combined percent values of those ingredients at around 72%. If you plan to cold ferment the dough, you could use around 2.5% IDY. That value might also work if you would rather try for an emergency or same-day dough. For salt, I would go with 2%.

If you elect to go with cold fermentation, I perhaps would not go beyond two days. For dough preparation purposes, you might follow the instructions you posted for your mother's pie crust recipe. You might even be able to use the wax paper method for rolling out the dough. However, for a 10" pizza size, if that is what you decide to make, you will have to scale your mother's pie crust recipe back. You might try using a thickness factor of around 0.13 and maybe a bowl residue compensation.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me I could try a hydration in the range of 49-53% and corn oil in the range of 18-20%, but keep the combined percent values of the water and corn oil at about 72%.

I had thought for dough preparation purposes I would try to follow the instructions I posted for my motherís pie crust recipe.  I am not sure I understand if I use a 10Ē pizza size about having to scale back my motherís pie crust recipe.  If I used my motherís pie crust recipe, but changed the hydration percentage and change the corn oil percentage then what size pizza would I be making?  I think you know I would not be good at trying to scale my motherís pie crust recipe back.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 13, 2013, 05:53:42 PM
I had thought for dough preparation purposes I would try to follow the instructions I posted for my motherís pie crust recipe.  I am not sure I understand if I use a 10Ē pizza size about having to scale back my motherís pie crust recipe.  If I used my motherís pie crust recipe, but changed the hydration percentage and change the corn oil percentage then what size pizza would I be making?  I think you know I would not be good at trying to scale my motherís pie crust recipe back.
Norma,

Sure you can do it. You know the size of pizza you want to make (10"), you know the baker's percents for the salt (2%) and IDY (2.5%) and you will pick percents for the water and oil, and you have the thickness factor (0.13). Plug all of those numbers into the expanded dough calculating tool, along with a bowl residue compensation value, and you will have your dough formulation.

If you have a problem, let me know and we will work everything out.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 13, 2013, 06:39:52 PM
Norma,

Sure you can do it. You know the size of pizza you want to make (10"), you know the baker's percents for the salt (2%) and IDY (2.5%) and you will pick percents for the water and oil, and you have the thickness factor (0.13). Plug all of those numbers into the expanded dough calculating tool, along with a bowl residue compensation value, and you will have your dough formulation.

If you have a problem, let me know and we will work everything out.

Peter

Peter,

Lol, yes I know how to do that.  I think I was thinking I needed to do something different than I really needed to do.  I did tell my mother today that I am going to try to make a pizza using her pie crust recipe and she seemed interested in knowing how that turns out.  My mother had to laugh about that.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 13, 2013, 06:58:37 PM
Peter,

Lol, yes I know how to do that.  I think I was thinking I needed to do something different than I really needed to do.  I did tell my mother today that I am going to try to make a pizza using her pie crust recipe and she seemed interested in knowing how that turns out.  My mother had to laugh about that.

Norma

^^can't wait to see that, that's one of the coolest things i've ever heard!   :chef:
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 13, 2013, 07:01:58 PM
^^can't wait to see that, that's one of the coolest things i've ever heard!   :chef:

CDNpielover,

It hits my "funny bone" even thinking about using a pie crust recipe to make a pizza dough.   :-D 

I'll see what happens.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 13, 2013, 07:07:59 PM
Speaking of "funny bone", the title of this thread is hilarious/ironic.

"Success" and "final formulation"?   Ummm....not so fast!   :-D
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 13, 2013, 08:15:02 PM
Speaking of "funny bone", the title of this thread is hilarious/ironic.

"Success" and "final formulation"?   Ummm....not so fast!   :-D

Garvey,

Five years ago, none of us had a good idea as to how to reverse engineer and clone pizzas of third parties. Also, back then, the information wasn't as good as it now is, quantitatively or qualitatively. I went back into my folder on the HRI project and saw that there were Nutrition Facts back in 2008 but I found little analysis or evidence of depth of understanding of that information. The best we were able to do was to conclude that there was a lot of oil in the HRI dough, more than we originally thought. Also, back then, HRI was not selling their frozen pizza into Texas so that I could at least have analyzed them as I did recently. It has taken HRI several years to penetrate Texas. Maybe others closer to the action could have helped more at the time, but these projects tend to be fairly lonely pursuits with few volunteers.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 13, 2013, 08:22:29 PM
I think we're agreeing here.

Cheers,
Garvey
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 14, 2013, 09:21:15 AM
I decided to mix an attempt at an HRI dough this morning, because I was curious to see what happens.  I used the expanded dough calculation tool to figure out the formulation and used PeterĎs recommended amounts to try for the corn oil and water at Reply 353 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242888.html#msg242888 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242888.html#msg242888)  I used my motherís instructions for mixing her pie crust dough.  The flour, salt, and IDY were sifted in my motherís sifter that she gave me.  The HRI attempted dough mixed well.  The final dough temperature was 74.3 degrees F.  I scaled the dough ball down to 489 grams.  I tasted the attempted HRI dough and it does taste like pie dough to me.  The dough was finished mixing at 8:41 AM. 

These are pictures of the process so far.

I think I am going to try cheese, sauce and pepperoni on this HRI attempt.

I am not sure what temperature to use to try and pre-bake the crust if I want to try something like what HRI does in its dough making facilities.  From the post of Peterís at 348 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242823.html#msg242823 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242823.html#msg242823)  it seems like the yeast is not really killed with using a dough press if the formed dough can be fermented 10-15 minutes more after it comes out of the hot dough presses.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 14, 2013, 09:39:49 AM
Norma,

What size pizza are you planning to make?

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 14, 2013, 09:57:04 AM
Norma,

What size pizza are you planning to make?

Peter

Peter,

I entered the desired pizza size at 13" in the expanded dough calculation tool for a 12" pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 14, 2013, 10:07:43 AM
I entered the desired pizza size at 13" in the expanded dough calculation tool for a 12" pizza.
Norma,

That is what I thought you did.

I suggest that you use a total of 15 ounces of dough, or a bit over 425 grams. You will want to stretch or roll the dough out to around 13" and flute the edges to form a rim. At that point, the total diameter is likely to be close to 12". The baked pizza should be close to 11.5".

As for the pre-bake temperature, I would use something around 475 degrees F, and bake the skin until it starts to turn a light brown. If underbaked at this point, the final crust might be too soft; if overbaked, it might be too hard and too dark. These are judgment calls that are necessitated by the fact that not all ovens bake the same.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 14, 2013, 10:19:34 AM
Norma,

That is what I thought you did.

I suggest that you use a total of 15 ounces of dough, or a bit over 425 grams. You will want to stretch or roll the dough out to around 13" and flute the edges to form a rim. At that point, the total diameter is likely to be close to 12". The baked pizza should be close to 11.5".

As for the pre-bake temperature, I would use something around 475 degrees F, and bake the skin until it starts to turn a light brown. If underbaked at this point, the final crust might be too soft; if overbaked, it might be too hard and too dark. These are judgment calls that are necessitated by the fact that not all ovens bake the same.

Peter

Peter,

Also to let you know more, I entered a bowl residue compensation of 3.0%.  I will scale back the dough ball to 15 ounces.  I will stretch, or roll out the dough to around 13Ē and flute the edges to form a rim.

Thanks for telling me to use a temperature of about 475 degrees and bake the skin until it starts to turn a light brown. 

Thanks again for your help!

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 14, 2013, 10:48:12 AM
I took the dough ball out of the plastic container and scaled the dough ball back to 425 grams, or 15 oz. on my scale and gently reballed.  The dough sure looked weird.  :-D Maybe I didnít mix the dough enough, but I didnít want to over mix the dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 14, 2013, 10:55:43 AM
I think you did good with "Dough Brain" Norma....I would be hesitant to mix it very much too.  :chef:
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: adletson on March 14, 2013, 10:56:11 AM
How much oil did you end up using in this dough?
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 14, 2013, 11:25:59 AM
I think you did good with "Dough Brain" Norma....I would be hesitant to mix it very much too.  :chef:

Bob,

I thought the dough almost looked like a brain too.   :-D  I wondered what might happen if the dough was mixed too much, so that is why I didn't mix a lot.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 14, 2013, 11:27:43 AM
How much oil did you end up using in this dough?

adletson,

I used 57.42 grams of corn oil in the dough. 


Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 14, 2013, 01:56:21 PM
I had to run a few errands and had saved the leftover part of the dough I had scaled back earlier.  I decided to test the leftover part of the dough to see how it baked and then tasted.  I sure donít know what a real HRI crust tastes like, but I think this crust was very good.  It can be seen there are some flaky areas and the crust did taste somewhat like a pie crust.  I didnít bother to try to figure out how thick I should have rolled the extra dough out.  The dough did ferment a lot since earlier this morning.

Now, the test will be to see what happens with the regular dough ball.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 14, 2013, 01:58:53 PM
Norma, that is looking very promising!  Of course it's hard to tell without seeing and tasting it in person, but it appears as though you've got layers there!!!   :chef:
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 14, 2013, 02:04:58 PM
Of course it's hard to tell without seeing and tasting it in person, but it appears as though you've got layers there!!!   :chef:

CDNpielover,

It appeared to me that there were layers too.  See how the whole pizza works out. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: adletson on March 14, 2013, 04:15:59 PM
Man that's a lot of fat in a dough!  It really is like a pie dough.  I've never had an HRI pizza, but it seems like it would be really rich when topped with cheese.  Does it eat as rich as it sounds?
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 14, 2013, 04:18:49 PM
Man that's a lot of fat in a dough!  It really is like a pie dough.  I've never had an HRI pizza, but it seems like it would be really rich when topped with cheese.  Does it eat as rich as it sounds?
You better believe it buddy.... ;D
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 14, 2013, 04:50:41 PM
This is what happened on my next attempt on a HRI pizza.  All didnít go well.  :-D

I put the dough ball between pieces of cut wax paper like my mother does when she rolls out her pie crust recipe.  I rolled until the skin was 13Ē, then docked the dough.  The dough was easy to roll out.  I kept the wax paper on the dough and set it beside my oven that was turned on and let the dough proof, or temper for 20 minutes (I put the waxed papered dough on the disk, so as not to try and disturb it when I was moving it).  I didnít let the skin temper in the small dough ball bake test.  It can be seen after the temper time how much the dough rose on the one photo.  When I went to remove the skin from between the wax papers the dough wanted to stick some and then I had a problem trying to move the skin to the disk.  I think when I try this again, I wonít keep the skin in between the wax papers when trying to proof, or temper the skin. The skin then wanted to fold over some when moving it, so I know my TF wasnít right.  I also saw then there might be a sticking problem on the disk while I tried to arrange the skin on the disk the best I could.  I tried to flute the edges of the skin the best I could at about one 1 inch so the finished skin would be 12Ē.  The edges did stay up while being fluted.

The dressings weights I used were 4.5 ounces of the Classico sauce I used last week, 10 ounces of the Guernseyís LMPS mozzarella and 14 slices of my regular pepperoni which weighed 1.2 ounces.

The skin was pre-baked for 15 minutes.  I then removed the pre-baked skin from the oven still on the disk and dressed it.  I saw then that some dough has gotten caught in the holes of the disk but didnít want to try and move the pre-baked skin at that point. 

When I tried to remove the pizza off of the disk there was a sticking issue, and the one end part of the pizza split.

There looked like there were some layers, but not enough in the crust in my opinion.  The edge rims were flaky though and the pizza did taste good in my opinion.  The bottom crust did brown okay this time.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 14, 2013, 04:53:31 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 14, 2013, 05:00:13 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 14, 2013, 05:04:05 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 14, 2013, 09:13:45 PM
wow!! looks really yummy norma!!! did you find layers like in your small crust test?  looks quite airy with a nice brown thin crunch layer on the bottom!  good job Norma!!  did you like the bite and or mouth feel?  thanks for all your hard work on this!!! 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 14, 2013, 10:11:43 PM
This looks promising.....

What hydration do you think you will try next Norma?   You going to cut yeast back a little? Thanks!


My resizer messed this up...I am referring to the last 3 pics of your recent post...right smack in the center of your crust is nice flakiness.  Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 14, 2013, 10:14:04 PM
Norma, I have to say the second version looks much more bready compared to the first.  Aside from dressings, is the only real difference that you allowed the second version to proof longer?  would you have achieved the same flakiness if you had put dressings on the first attempt?
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 14, 2013, 10:34:31 PM
This looks promising.....

What hydration do you think you will try next Norma?   Thanks!


My resizer messed this up...I am referring to the last 3 pics of your recent post...right smack in the center of your crust is nice flakiness.  Bob

I think I see it now!! looking good!!!!  this is exciting stuff!! 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 14, 2013, 10:41:28 PM
I think I see it now!! looking good!!!!  this is exciting stuff!!
Where is Garvey when we need him man.... ;D
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 14, 2013, 10:43:11 PM
I'm not sure, I don't really see much if any flaking in that second one.  it looks more like bread with air pockets.   ???
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 14, 2013, 10:54:28 PM
I'm not sure, I don't really see much if any flaking in that second one.  it looks more like bread with air pockets.   ???
Sometimes you have to have the right equipment CDN..... 8)
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 14, 2013, 11:08:30 PM
ha!!! i remember wanting those!!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 14, 2013, 11:39:32 PM
ha!!! i remember wanting those!!!
Yep...."good clean fun gag for boys and girls of all ages".  ;)
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 14, 2013, 11:47:45 PM
mrmojo1, Bob, and CDNpielover,

To try and answer all your posts in one post it might be easier for me, so that is what I will try to do.  If there are any questions after this post, anyone can ask.

There appeared to be some layers in my small crust test.  It also had a nice crunch on the bottom crust.  I did like the mouth feel of the small crust test.

I think I am going to try the same hydration as I did in this attempt the next time.  I have been thinking it over while I was at my motherís home tonight and I sure donít know, but what I think might have been some of the things I did wrong was keep the wax paper on the skin.  I think I should have tried to roll the dough out, maybe with a little bit of flour, then docked it and left it temper.  It seemed to me that while the skin was tempering between the wax papers it became a lot moister and that might have caused my sticking issues.  I donít want to change anything until I do another test with the same amounts of everything.  I think it was my errors that caused what went wrong with this attempt.  As I posted before, when I went to take the skin out of between the wax papers the skin wanted to fold and seemed quite extensible.  The dough almost seemed like it might have been fermented too much too, but I really donít know.  The mess of trying to straighten the skin out on the screen after it folded over and stuck together was a big issue.  Until I had the skin straightened out the best I could on the disk I guess I basically altered the chemistry of the temper time of the skin.  I also might try a cold ferment the next time instead of trying to room temperature ferment the dough.  There really wasnít any flakiness in the center of the second crust, but the undressed crust did have some flakiness.  I also think I used to much of the skin to form the fluted edges.  I really donít know if I would have achieved the same flakiness on the first test dough if dressing were added, but think there might have been because the crust was already set.  I think there are tricks that have to be learned with trying to make this dough. 

If anyone thinks they know what I did wrong, or has suggestions as what to try the next time they can let me know.  I am still pondering what I did wrong. 

Lol, Bob I needed those X-ray specs to be able to know what was going on with my dough and skin.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 15, 2013, 01:20:45 AM
Thanks so much Norma!  As an engineer,  I am impressed with your experiments and your limiting of variables!  You are generatingv a ot of good data, and stimulating a lot of thought about this pizza crust!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2013, 08:28:29 AM
Thanks so much Norma!  As an engineer,  I am impressed with your experiments and your limiting of variables!  You are generatingv a ot of good data, and stimulating a lot of thought about this pizza crust!

mrmojo1,

I didnít know you were an engineer.  8) I think I have learned from all the experiments I have done here on the forum that if too many variables are changed at one time, then you can never figure out what went wrong.

I am thinking about just pre-baking a crust to see what the results would be using the same formulation that was used in my last attempt, but changing my methods of using the wax paper.  I am now just trying to decide if a smaller crust would give me different results when trying that method, but really donít think that would alter anything, since HRI does make smaller pizzas too.  I donít know if I made a dough the same size then split in two and tried to roll it with flour and maybe also tried to hand stretch the dough if that would help me to decide if one of those methods might work or not.  It is a never ending process to be able to understand everything about different styles of pizzas.  I know since I have been working on Detroit style pizzas that the high hydration dough when tempered does become very sticky, but the dough isnít right out of the fridge.  I am thinking along the lines of that also might have been the case of my skin in the last attempt after the temper period between the wax papers.  When I first rolled out the dough I think I could have stretch it by hand, but donít know since I didnít try that method.  My bakes times could have been off too, or maybe I didnĎt mix the dough right either.  There are too many variables even to think about.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 15, 2013, 08:40:10 AM
If anyone thinks they know what I did wrong, or has suggestions as what to try the next time they can let me know.  I am still pondering what I did wrong. 
Norma,

I don't want to say that what you did was "wrong" but I do want to say that I think you mixed apples with oranges with your latest experiment. As a result, I think you created a new and different type of pizza, even though it had some of the characteristics of an HRI pizza.

I think where you veered off of the path was when you decided to proof the skin. That is not something that I have seen done for an HRI pizza that is based on an ambient temperature fermented dough.  And the only time that I have seen HRI use an ambient temperature fermented dough is to make frozen pizzas. As previously discussed, and as noted in the articles I cited in Reply 331 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242613.html#msg242613, (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242613.html#msg242613,) that was true back in 1996 (the date of one of the early articles on HRI's frozen pizza business) and is no doubt true today. Where HRI does proof its skins is in its pizzerias, but it is only after the skins have gone through the hot presses. In its frozen pizza operations, the skins that come out of the dough presses march on inexorably from the dough presses to be pre-baked, dressed, further baked, and frozen.

In your case, should you decide to make another room-temperature fermented dough that is to be true to the methods used by HRI to make its frozen pizzas, you would make your dough, let it proof/ferment at room temperature, dip the dough ball into bench flour to minimize sticking, form the skin (with the fluted rim rather than the round rim of a frozen HRI pizza), dock the skin, pre-bake it (until a light brown), dress it, and finish baking. I think you will also discover that the crust will remain fairly light in color thoughout the entire process. That is because the flour that HRI is using is likely to be an all-purpose flour, or something similar in protein content, and there is no sugar added to the dough, and the fermentation of the dough is too short to allow the enzymes to convert the starch to sufficient natural sugars to contribute to final crust coloration.

If, instead, you elect to make a cold fermented dough, as HRI does for its pizzeria dough balls, you can use the same dough formulation, let the dough cold ferment for anywhere from 12 hours to three days (based on what HRI has said on this point), temper the dough at room temperature when ready to use it, form a skin with the fluted rim, dock it, pre-bake it until a light brown, dress it, and finish baking. You could use the step of proofing the skin for say, 15-20 minutes, as HRI does in its pizzerias, but you would have to pre-bake the skin for a very bried period of time (to simulate the application of heat by the hot dough press) to keep the skin from setting to the point where it cannot ferment or rise anymore. I think I would form the skin (with its fluted rim), dock it, pre-bake it until a light brown, dress it, and finish baking.

I also think that this is a case where it would help if you had a real HRI frozen pizza to hold in your hot little hands and to examine. Since that may or may not happen for some time, this morning I went out in search of photos of a baked frozen HRI pizza to show you. As you might expect, when I went to the HRI Facebook page, I found several photos of the HRI frozen pizzas but the pizzas all looked like they were prepared by food stylists and in the studios of professional photographers. Apparently, it is not good for HRI's business to show crappy, amateurish photos of their pizzas.

Peter



Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2013, 09:27:15 AM
Norma,

I don't want to say that what you did was "wrong" but I do want to say that I think you mixed apples with oranges with your latest experiment. As a result, I think you created a new and different type of pizza, even though it had some of the characteristics of an HRI pizza.

I think where you veered off of the path was when you decided to proof the skin. That is not something that I have seen done for an HRI pizza that is based on an ambient temperature fermented dough.  And the only time that I have seen HRI use an ambient temperature fermented dough is to make frozen pizzas. As previously discussed, and as noted in the articles I cited in Reply 331 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242613.html#msg242613, (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242613.html#msg242613,) that was true back in 1996 (the date of one of the early articles on HRI's frozen pizza business) and is no doubt true today. Where HRI does proof its skins is in its pizzerias, but it is only after the skins have gone through the hot presses. In its frozen pizza operations, the skins that come out of the dough presses march on inexorably from the dough presses to be pre-baked, dressed, further baked, and frozen.

In your case, should you decide to make another room-temperature fermented dough that is to be true to the methods used by HRI to make its frozen pizzas, you would make your dough, let it proof/ferment at room temperature, dip the dough ball into bench flour to minimize sticking, form the skin (with the fluted rim rather than the round rim of a frozen HRI pizza), dock the skin, pre-bake it (until a light brown), dress it, and finish baking. I think you will also discover that the crust will remain fairly light in color thoughout the entire process. That is because the flour that HRI is using is likely to be an all-purpose flour, or something similar in protein content, and there is no sugar added to the dough, and the fermentation of the dough is too short to allow the enzymes to convert the starch to sufficient natural sugars to contribute to final crust coloration.

If, instead, you elect to make a cold fermented dough, as HRI does for its pizzeria dough balls, you can use the same dough formulation, let the dough cold ferment for anywhere from 12 hours to three days (based on what HRI has said on this point), temper the dough at room temperature when ready to use it, form a skin with the fluted rim, dock it, pre-bake it until a light brown, dress it, and finish baking. You could use the step of proofing the skin for say, 15-20 minutes, as HRI does in its pizzerias, but you would have to pre-bake the skin for a very bried period of time (to simulate the application of heat by the hot dough press) to keep the skin from setting to the point where it cannot ferment or rise anymore. I think I would form the skin (with its fluted rim), dock it, pre-bake it until a light brown, dress it, and finish baking.

I also think that this is a case where it would help if you had a real HRI frozen pizza to hold in your hot little hands and to examine. Since that may or may not happen for some time, this morning I went out in search of photos of a baked frozen HRI pizza to show you. As you might expect, when I went to the HRI Facebook page, I found several photos of the HRI frozen pizzas but the pizzas all looked like they were prepared by food stylists and in the studios of professional photographers. Apparently, it is not good for HRI's business to show crappy, amateurish photos of their pizzas. However, by going to Google Images, I found an example of a baked frozen HRI pepperoni pizza that appears to be typical of what you might expect for an HRI baked frozen pizza, at http://daisyreviews.blogspot.com/2012/08/my-review-on-home-run-inn-pizza.html. (http://daisyreviews.blogspot.com/2012/08/my-review-on-home-run-inn-pizza.html.)  If you make another pepperoni pizza, but with the fluted rim, and you don't overbake it, it might look more closely like the photo shown at http://www.hrichicagosbestpizza.com/website/images/spotlight/locations/westmont-03.jpg. (http://www.hrichicagosbestpizza.com/website/images/spotlight/locations/westmont-03.jpg.) That pizza also has sausage on it but I think you get the idea.

Peter

Peter,

I am known for messing stuff up for doing things like mixing apples with oranges. 

I understand now since you posted that I shouldnít have decided to proof the skin.  I think I had to many things to think about and maybe that is why I messed-up with thinking about how HRI makes it frozen pizzas and also how HRI pizzerias make their pizzas. 

I will use your suggestions to make another room-temperature fermented dough using methods used by HRI to make its frozen pizzas.  I appreciate your help.  Do you know how long I should try to room temperature ferment the dough with all of the yeast that is added?  Maybe I will make another attempt tomorrow.  I also wanted to ask you if when I figure out the formulation again, do I just put 12Ē in for the size of the pizza in the expanded dough calculation tool?

I sure donít know how hot my hands are, but I sure would like to have a real HRI frozen pizza to be able to examine.  :-D

Just to let you know when I clicked on your link to Daisyís Reviews, it said ďSorry, the page you were looking for in this blog does not existĒ.   I had to use the Search This Blog feature and type in Home Run Inn Pizza and go from there to see that post.  Your second link didnít work for me.  Thanks for doing the search for photos.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 15, 2013, 10:54:38 AM
I will use your suggestions to make another room-temperature fermented dough using methods used by HRI to make its frozen pizzas.  I appreciate your help.  Do you know how long I should try to room temperature ferment the dough with all of the yeast that is added?  Maybe I will make another attempt tomorrow.  I also wanted to ask you if when I figure out the formulation again, do I just put 12Ē in for the size of the pizza in the expanded dough calculation tool?
Norma,

I would look for a doubling or tripling of the dough. The time for that to happen will depend on the room temperature where you let the dough rise.

And, yes, you should use 12" in the expanded dough calculating tool.

I don't know what happened to the two photos. When I found them again, they worked in the Preview but not after I posted. So, I deleted the text for those two photos.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: adletson on March 15, 2013, 11:19:23 AM
Dang, even what you call a mess up looks fabulous!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2013, 11:33:01 AM
Norma,

I would look for a doubling or tripling of the dough. The time for that to happen will depend on the room temperature where you let the dough rise.

And, yes, you should use 12" in the expanded dough calculating tool.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for suggesting to look for a doubling or tripling of the dough if I try a room temperature ferment.  I will use the poppy seed trick.  I donít think it will take very long for the dough to ferment to a doubling or tripling since a high percentage of yeast is used.

Thanks also for posting to use a desired size of pizza at 12Ē.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2013, 11:36:13 AM
Dang, even what you call a mess up looks fabulous!

adletson,

The attempted pizza was good, but the crust didn't turn out right.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 15, 2013, 12:19:59 PM
Norma,

The photo of the baked HRI frozen pepperoni pizza that I was trying to post earlier is shown in the blog article at http://daisyreviews.blogspot.com/2012/08/my-review-on-home-run-inn-pizza.html (http://daisyreviews.blogspot.com/2012/08/my-review-on-home-run-inn-pizza.html) . You can see what a baked HRI frozen pepperoni and sausage pizza looks like at http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mWo_dfVi8FE/T1EPOnay-4I/AAAAAAAAEW0/eUN1B5M02YQ/s1600/Feb%2B2012%2B169.jpg (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mWo_dfVi8FE/T1EPOnay-4I/AAAAAAAAEW0/eUN1B5M02YQ/s1600/Feb%2B2012%2B169.jpg) . For an example of what the rim of an in-store pizza looks like, with the fluted character, see the photo at  http://www.hrichicagosbestpizza.com/website/images/spotlight/pizzerias-05.jpg (http://www.hrichicagosbestpizza.com/website/images/spotlight/pizzerias-05.jpg) .

I was also looking for a photo of the bottom of an HRI pizza and found one in the Slice article at http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html (http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html) .

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2013, 01:03:48 PM
Norma,

The photo of the baked HRI frozen pepperoni pizza that I was trying to post earlier is shown in the blog article at http://daisyreviews.blogspot.com/2012/08/my-review-on-home-run-inn-pizza.html (http://daisyreviews.blogspot.com/2012/08/my-review-on-home-run-inn-pizza.html) . You can see what a baked HRI frozen pepperoni and sausage pizza looks like at http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mWo_dfVi8FE/T1EPOnay-4I/AAAAAAAAEW0/eUN1B5M02YQ/s1600/Feb%2B2012%2B169.jpg (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mWo_dfVi8FE/T1EPOnay-4I/AAAAAAAAEW0/eUN1B5M02YQ/s1600/Feb%2B2012%2B169.jpg) . For an example of what the rim of an in-store pizza looks like, with the fluted character, see the photo at  http://www.hrichicagosbestpizza.com/website/images/spotlight/pizzerias-05.jpg (http://www.hrichicagosbestpizza.com/website/images/spotlight/pizzerias-05.jpg) .

I was also looking for a photo of the bottom of an HRI pizza and found one in the Slice article at http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html. (http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html.)

Peter

Peter,

I can see the photos on your first three links, but not for the Slice article (the Slice article says not found).  Thanks for posting the links to the photos.

I wanted to let you and anyone else know I did send some emails this morning using the contact feature at http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/contact-us/contact-frozen-pizza-operations (http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/contact-us/contact-frozen-pizza-operations) and mentioned I would like to know the protein content of the flour they use for the frozen pizzas, giving the same excuses I did before on the Two Bills thread.  I also said since I canít purchase any frozen HRI pizzas in Pa. before I travel to Maryland to purchase some frozen HRI pizzas I would like that information if they could give it to me.  I will wait and see what happens with that.  I also said I used the feature on the HRI website to find the nearest places I could find HRI frozen pizzas.

I also mixed up another dough just a little while ago and use the same methods in mixing, but use warmer water and also placed poppy seeds on the dough ball.  The dough ball is now in the fridge.  I have to pick up flour, go to the vets to pick up diet food for my dog and then to market, but hopefully when I get home the dough will have fermented some.  If the dough ball doesnít ferment enough I either will let it sit at room temperature, or put it into the oven with the light on.  I didnít want to take the chance of the dough ball overfermenting at room temperature, because I donít know how long I will be away.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 15, 2013, 01:36:18 PM
Norma,

The link that did not work is http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html (http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html) . I have found recently that if I don't put a space between the URL and a period, or other punctuation, the link doesn't work. That used to happen before but it seems to be happening more since the forum software was changed.

I will be very surprised if you get an answer from HRI. You might not even get a response at all. I once sent an email to HRI asking what the Nutrition Facts applied to (e.g., unbaked pizzas, fully baked pizzas or partially baked pizzas) and never did get a response.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 15, 2013, 02:08:57 PM
Norma,
Interestingly enough, earlier this week I discovered that all the grocery stores in my immediate area have stopped selling HRI frozen pizza...very strange. I have scored some though and they are sitting in my hot little freezer.  ;D
You should receive yours by Wednesday.  ;)

Bob

ps. I'm not making the same mistake as last time when I attempted to ship something on a Friday and it sat in a warehouse all weekend. On the USPS shipping site I plugged our zip codes into their estimator and they say a package sent no later than 5pm on a Monday arrives to you on Wednesday. I thought that is pretty good.
My dry ice place is right near the post office so I will go there near the deadline time to ship.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2013, 05:35:14 PM
Norma,

The link that did not work is http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html (http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html) . I have found recently that if I don't put a space between the URL and a period, or other punctuation, the link doesn't work. That used to happen before but it seems to be happening more since the forum software was changed.

I will be very surprised if you get an answer from HRI. You might not even get a response at all. I once sent an email to HRI asking what the Nutrition Facts applied to (e.g., unbaked pizzas, fully baked pizzas or partially baked pizzas) and never did get a response.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for posting the link that does work now.  The bottom crust is fairly light to my eyes.  I know I used to have the same problems when trying to post a link sometimes and then I had to try different stuff to get the links to work. 

It would be interesting if I did get an answer from HRI, but I am not holding my breath on that one either.  I wonder why they even put those emails addresses on their website if they donít want to answer at all.  I did get an auto reply that Angela was out of the office today. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2013, 05:43:27 PM
Norma,
Interestingly enough, earlier this week I discovered that all the grocery stores in my immediate area have stopped selling HRI frozen pizza...very strange. I have scored some though and they are sitting in my hot little freezer.  ;D
You should receive yours by Wednesday.  ;)

Bob

ps. I'm not making the same mistake as last time when I attempted to ship something on a Friday and it sat in a warehouse all weekend. On the USPS shipping site I plugged our zip codes into their estimator and they say a package sent no later than 5pm on a Monday arrives to you on Wednesday. I thought that is pretty good.
My dry ice place is right near the post office so I will go there near the deadline time to ship.

Bob,

That is strange and interesting that you discovered that all of the grocery stores in your immediate area have stopped selling HRI frozen pizzas.  Glad to hear you could get some.   ;D

I sure appreciate it that you are willing to send me an HRI frozen pizza, but my daughter also just told me when she returned home from work today that she will take me to Maryland tomorrow to purchase some HRI frozen pizzas. If you want to save yourself the bother and expense of sending me a HRI frozen pizza that is fine with me.  I will also check and called the supermarkets in Maryland that are supposed to be selling frozen HRI pizza since you told me of your experience. 

I am excited about tasting a frozen HRI pizza and also being able to really see what there crusts are like.  Do you or anyone have any suggestions about what kind of HRI frozen pizzas to purchase?  I think the closest supermarket that sells the HRI frozen pizzas is about 73 miles away from where I live.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2013, 05:47:27 PM
The photos show right after the dough ball was balled and also how the dough ball looked when I came home today.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 15, 2013, 06:49:36 PM
Bob,

That is strange and interesting that you discovered that all of the grocery stores in your immediate area have stopped selling HRI frozen pizzas.  Glad to hear you could get some.   ;D

I sure appreciate it that you are willing to send me an HRI frozen pizza, but my daughter also just told me when she returned home from work today that she will take me to Maryland tomorrow to purchase some HRI frozen pizzas. If you want to save yourself the bother and expense of sending me a HRI frozen pizza that is fine with me.  I will also check and called the supermarkets in Maryland that are supposed to be selling frozen HRI pizza since you told me of your experience. 

I am excited about tasting a frozen HRI pizza and also being able to really see what there crusts are like.  Do you or anyone have any suggestions about what kind of HRI frozen pizzas to purchase?  I think the closest supermarket that sells the HRI frozen pizzas is about 73 miles away from where I live.

Norma
Ok Norma, sounds great...a nice 'lil trip to spend time with your daughter. Just post up here if ya'll for some reason are not able to go to Maryland.
As for suggestions, maybe try the 3 different ones I was going to send.   Their "traditional" pepperoni and sausage, the "ultra thin" sausage pie and a new one I just discovered that they are calling  "Signature"...never seen this one before, it looks like their regular crust but the box says "Signature" and "Meat Lovers" on it. It is topped with "sausage,uncured pepperoni, uncured bacon". Interesting.  I hope you score cause I wanna eat that bad looking boy!   :drool:
Have a fun safe trip Norma.  :chef:

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2013, 08:34:30 PM
Ok Norma, sounds great...a nice 'lil trip to spend time with your daughter. Just post up here if ya'll for some reason are not able to go to Maryland.
As for suggestions, maybe try the 3 different ones I was going to send.   Their "traditional" pepperoni and sausage, the "ultra thin" sausage pie and a new one I just discovered that they are calling  "Signature"...never seen this one before, it looks like their regular crust but the box says "Signature" and "Meat Lovers" on it. It is topped with "sausage,uncured pepperoni, uncured bacon". Interesting.  I hope you score cause I wanna eat that bad looking boy!   :drool:
Have a fun safe trip Norma.  :chef:

Bob

Bob,

Thanks so much for all you did!  ;) I will post if I donít get to go tomorrow.  I called one Harris Teeter in MD since they were listed on Home Run Innís website, but they didnít carry the Home Run Inn frozen pizzas.  I called the next one and they did say they carry the HRI frozen pizzas, but they only have 4 varieties.  I didnít ask what the 4 kinds were, so I donít think I am going to have as many kinds of frozen HRI pizzas to pick from like you did.  All of the ones you chose sure sound great.  :P 

My daughter will almost have to drive to Washington, DC just to get me some frozen HRI pizzas.  I know that sounds crazy but she did drive to Mellow Mushroom in DC before for me to try their pizza. 

Thanks for saying to have a fun trip.

Hope you post the pictures of your HRI frozen pies when you bake them.  I would be interested in seeing what they look like.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2013, 08:40:25 PM
This post is dedicated to Peter that helped me understand how to make this crust and pizza.  :chef: I followed Peterís instructions this time.  :angel: I sure donít know how I did, but the crust and pizza were delicious.  The rim crust was so flaky that when I pinched it with my tongs after the pre-baked it want to crumble.  There seemed like they were layers and even the middle of the undercrust just melted in my mouth.  I sure never though I would taste a crust like this. 

I used the same weights for the sauce, mozzarella and pepperoni as my last attempt and also used the same brand of sauce, mozzarella and pepperoni.

I did have a problem with my camera though.  I never turned on the flash since it is a fairly new camera and somehow must have turned it on mistakenly to stay on.  A lot of the pictures then became too bright, so I had to delete them.  I finally got a big glass of wine and tried to figure out why the flash was going on in each picture.  I did get it turned off, but that was when the pizza was in the oven.  Now after I tasted the pizza it is on to another big glass of wine.  Hope I donít post something weird tonight from drinking too much wine.  :-D

Norma 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2013, 08:43:59 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2013, 08:46:32 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2013, 08:48:39 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2013, 08:50:27 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 15, 2013, 09:25:02 PM
Norma,

That is a very tasty looking pizza. A few more tries and you will have a clone with most of the characteristics of an HRI pizza. It will also be interesting to see how you react to the real HRI frozen pizzas if you are able to find them.

The YouTube video that seems to best show how to form the rims of HRI skins is the one in Reply 223 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg241313/topicseen.html#msg241313. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg241313/topicseen.html#msg241313.) Note, in particular, how the rim is formed by moving the fingers in opposite directions around the perimeter of the pizza.

Maybe you have already indicated, but how did you prepare the dough and what temperature did you use to bake the pizza? And did you experience any problems in making the dough or pizza? I was somewhat surprised at the amount of crust coloration you got. In my oven, with my deconstructed and reconstructed HRI frozen pizzas, I did not get that degree of coloration.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2013, 10:34:27 PM
Norma,

That is a very tasty looking pizza. A few more tries and you will have a clone with most of the characteristics of an HRI pizza. It will also be interesting to see how you react to the real HRI frozen pizzas if you are able to find them.

The YouTube video that seems to best show how to form the rims of HRI skins is the one in Reply 223 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg241313/topicseen.html#msg241313. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg241313/topicseen.html#msg241313.) Note, in particular, how the rim is formed by moving the fingers in opposite directions around the perimeter of the pizza.

Maybe you have already indicated, but how did you prepare the dough and what temperature did you use to bake the pizza? And did you experience any problems in making the dough or pizza? I was somewhat surprised at the amount of crust coloration you got. In my oven, with my deconstructed and reconstructed HRI frozen pizzas, I did not get that degree of coloration.

Peter

Peter,

I have to watch that video more at Reply 223 to be able to duplicate how the rim crust is exactly formed.  Thanks for referencing it again.  I tried to do it that way, but my crust didnít want to stay up as good as the HRI crusts do.   

I prepared the dough by sifting the flour, salt and IDY together and just dumped the corn oil in with the water and then dumped the water and oil combination in with the other ingredients.  I just mixed with a regular fork until all the ingredients looked mixed like my mother does when she makes pie crusts.  I didnít experience hardly any problems this time, except I have to learn the fluting method better to form the rim.  The dough ball was just dumped into the flour and a little flour was put on my wooden table.  I used my regular wooden rolling pin to roll the dough.  The skin that was fluted and docked were easy to transfer to the dark disk (with a little straightening needed after it was transferred to the disk).  The pre-bake was done at 465 degrees for about 14 minutes and then after the pie was dressed it was baked for about another 13 minutes.  I donít know why my crust had more coloration than your deconstructed and reconstructed HRI pizzas.  I did use my IR gun, but it is hard to take the temperature without a pizza stone in a oven.  The floor of the oven says one temperature and the sides say another temperature, so I am not exactly sure those were accurate temperatures.

I also weighed the pie right out of the oven and it weighed 791 grams.  Wasnít that a lot of weight for this 12Ē baked pizza?

I am interested in tasting a real HRI frozen pizza.  I sure hope Harris Teeter at Fulton, MD has those HRI frozen pizzas after they checked and told me they did. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 15, 2013, 10:41:47 PM
FWIW...the frozen pies I was able to get at the next town over from me came from a Harris Teeter.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2013, 11:06:05 PM
FWIW...the frozen pies I was able to get at the next town over from me came from a Harris Teeter.

Bob,

Thanks for telling me that the frozen HRI pies you were able to purchase were from a Harris Teeter too.  I think there are a lot of Harris Teeter's, but I have never been in any.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 15, 2013, 11:15:13 PM
Bob,

Thanks for telling me that the frozen HRI pies you were able to purchase were from a Harris Teeter too.  I think there are a lot of Harris Teeter's, but I have never been in any.

Norma
Yep, they are very nice stores Norma but a bit of what they call "high end" I guess? The multi-grain tofu folks.  :)
But hey, I was shocked when I saw a frozen Genio's East (famous Chicago pizzeria" DD pie there. It was good but not for someone who can make them at home. I'm glad I tried it though.... :pizza:

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2013, 11:19:39 PM
Yep, they are very nice stores Norma but a bit of what they call "high end" I guess? The multi-grain tofu folks.  :)
But hey, I was shocked when I saw a frozen Genio's East (famous Chicago pizzeria" DD pie there. It was good but not for someone who can make them at home. I'm glad I tried it though.... :pizza:

Bob

Bob,

If they are "high end" supermarkets, I won't be purchasing too much there if stuff is pricey.

Good to hear you were able to purchase the famous DD pie there.  At least it was a good experience to try it.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 15, 2013, 11:28:14 PM
Bob,

If they are "high end" supermarkets, I won't be purchasing too much there if stuff is pricey.

Good to hear you were able to purchase the famous DD pie there.  At least it was a good experience to try it.

Norma
Oh no, don't worry...pizza prices were great. Most everything I got was on sale too.
I meant like for things around the deli and butcher counter...you can tell they cater to people wanting "special" brand this and that type products.
I also got some Ellio's frozen pizza squares...seen folks saying good things about those over on Serious Eats...we'll see. ;)

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 16, 2013, 08:16:39 AM
Oh no, don't worry...pizza prices were great. Most everything I got was on sale too.
I meant like for things around the deli and butcher counter...you can tell they cater to people wanting "special" brand this and that type products.
I also got some Ellio's frozen pizza squares...seen folks saying good things about those over on Serious Eats...we'll see. ;)

Bob

Bob,

Good to hear the pizza prices were great.  8) I understand now what you meant that you can tell they cater to people that want special products.  I think our local supermarkets sells those Ellioís frozen pizza squares too, or at least they did.  I remember purchasing them for my children many years ago and thought they were good at that time.  I still also recall my first pizza making adventure when I was a teen.  A girlfriend of mine was Italian and an Italian neighbor lady next door to my girlfriend made great pizzas at home.  I watched her and tried to duplicate what she did at my home.  My attempt was sure a mess and at that time I had flour all over my motherís kitchen.  No wonder my mother doesnít want me to mess around with flour too much anymore in her kitchen.  :-D That was the end of my pizza making attempts (except for boxed pizza mixes) until I found this forum.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 16, 2013, 09:15:15 AM
I have to watch that video more at Reply 223 to be able to duplicate how the rim crust is exactly formed.  Thanks for referencing it again.  I tried to do it that way, but my crust didnít want to stay up as good as the HRI crusts do.   

I prepared the dough by sifting the flour, salt and IDY together and just dumped the corn oil in with the water and then dumped the water and oil combination in with the other ingredients.  I just mixed with a regular fork until all the ingredients looked mixed like my mother does when she makes pie crusts.  I didnít experience hardly any problems this time, except I have to learn the fluting method better to form the rim.  The dough ball was just dumped into the flour and a little flour was put on my wooden table.  I used my regular wooden rolling pin to roll the dough.  The skin that was fluted and docked were easy to transfer to the dark disk (with a little straightening needed after it was transferred to the disk).  The pre-bake was done at 465 degrees for about 14 minutes and then after the pie was dressed it was baked for about another 13 minutes.  I donít know why my crust had more coloration than your deconstructed and reconstructed HRI pizzas.  I did use my IR gun, but it is hard to take the temperature without a pizza stone in a oven.  The floor of the oven says one temperature and the sides say another temperature, so I am not exactly sure those were accurate temperatures.

I also weighed the pie right out of the oven and it weighed 791 grams.  Wasnít that a lot of weight for this 12Ē baked pizza?

I am interested in tasting a real HRI frozen pizza.  I sure hope Harris Teeter at Fulton, MD has those HRI frozen pizzas after they checked and told me they did. 
Norma,

From the photos you posted of your latest HRI clone, I would say that you perhaps got a more flaky crust than what HRI produces with its pizzas, at least its frozen pizzas. I think that what you will find is that if you use your home stand mixer or food processor, you will end up with a much more robust dough with a more fully developed gluten structure. The salt should also help strengthen the dough more because of the more aggressive knead. As a result, the dough ball will look and feel more like a normal dough ball, not something that looks like a "brain". Moreover, when it comes time to form the rim on the skin, it will be easier to accomplish and it should stay upright longer. I think you can also expect to see some sacrifice of the flakiness in the finished crust.

With respect to the weight of your finished baked pizza, at 791 grams, or 27.90 ounces, I consider that weight to be in the "zone". According to the HRI pizza box, a frozen HRI pepperoni pizza weighs 792 grams, or 27.94 ounces. However, the actual weight of the frozen pizza on a home scale can be an ounce or ounce-and-a-half more (32-45 grams for my two HRI pepperoni pizzas). Also, the weights of the frozen pizzas already reflect the losses that the pizzas sustained as they were partially baked in HRI's frozen pizza plants. In my case, the baked weights of the two HRI pepperoni pizzas that I experimented with, and that were fully defrosted, were 782 grams (27.58 ounces) and 756 grams (26.67 ounces). However, my baked weights were a bit lower than normal because I "lost" several grams due to the deconstruction and reconstruction of the two pizzas. There is no way to know how much a typical HRI frozen pepperoni pizza loses in weight from the time the pizza is made in its frozen pizza plants and it comes out of the user's oven. But I think you can see that the weight of your pizza was in line with my numbers.

In the above vein, it should also be remembered that a typical HRI frozen pizza is baked in two steps. The first step is a pre-bake of the crust at 490 degrees F for 90 seconds. That is for a crust that rides on a conveyor belt without a carrier. After the cheese and pepperoni are added for a pepperoni pizza, the pizza is baked at 495 degrees F for three more minutes. Apparently at that stage, the pizza should have a temperature of 165 degrees F. There perhaps aren't a lot of losses in weight at those temperatures and bake times because the high oil quantity reduces the rate of evaporation of the water from the dough and also because the hydration of the dough is fairly low in the first place. So, I suspect that a fair amount of weight loss occurs during the much longer bake time in the oven of the consumer. But there is no way to know for sure. I think that you will find from future experiments that you can pre-bake your crust for a much shorter time than you used and that the total bake time can be further reduced. And that should result in a lighter final crust than you achieved.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 16, 2013, 10:45:01 AM
Norma,

From the photos you posted of your latest HRI clone, I would say that you perhaps got a more flaky crust than what HRI produces with its pizzas, at least its frozen pizzas. I think that what you will find is that if you use your home stand mixer or food processor, you will end up with a much more robust dough with a more fully developed gluten structure. The salt should also help strengthen the dough more because of the more aggressive knead. As a result, the dough ball will look and feel more like a normal dough ball, not something that looks like a "brain". Moreover, when it comes time to form the rim on the skin, it will be easier to accomplish and it should stay upright longer. I think you can also expect to see some sacrifice of the flakiness in the finished crust.

With respect to the weight of your finished baked pizza, at 791 grams, or 27.90 ounces, I consider that weight to be in the "zone". According to the HRI pizza box, a frozen HRI pepperoni pizza weighs 792 grams, or 27.94 ounces. However, the actual weight of the frozen pizza on a home scale can be an ounce or ounce-and-a-half more (32-45 grams for my two HRI pepperoni pizzas). Also, the weights of the frozen pizzas already reflect the losses that the pizzas sustained as they were partially baked in HRI's frozen pizza plants. In my case, the baked weights of the two HRI pepperoni pizzas that I experimented with, and that were fully defrosted, were 782 grams (27.58 ounces) and 756 grams (26.67 ounces). However, my baked weights were a bit lower than normal because I "lost" several grams due to the deconstruction and reconstruction of the two pizzas. There is no way to know how much a typical HRI frozen pepperoni pizza loses in weight from the time the pizza is made in its frozen pizza plants and it comes out of the user's oven. But I think you can see that the weight of your pizza was in line with my numbers.

In the above vein, it should also be remembered that a typical HRI frozen pizza is baked in two steps. The first step is a pre-bake of the crust at 490 degrees F for 90 seconds. That is for a crust that rides on a conveyor belt without a carrier. After the cheese and pepperoni are added for a pepperoni pizza, the pizza is baked at 495 degrees F for three more minutes. Apparently at that stage, the pizza should have a temperature of 165 degrees F. There perhaps aren't a lot of losses in weight at those temperatures and bake times because the high oil quantity reduces the rate of evaporation of the water from the dough and also because the hydration of the dough is fairly low in the first place. So, I suspect that a fair amount of weight loss occurs during the much longer bake time in the oven of the consumer. But there is no way to know for sure. I think that you will find from future experiments that you can pre-bake your crust for a much shorter time than you used and that the total bake time can be further reduced. And that should result in a lighter final crust than you achieved.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for suggesting to use my home stand mixer or food processor the next time I make an attempt on a HRI dough.  I can understand that using one those mixing devices would give a more robust dough with a more fully developed gluten structure.  I didnít think of the salt also helping to strengthen the dough more because of the aggressive knead, but that makes sense.  I can understand too that when it is time to form the rim it would stay upright longer. 

Thanks for posting why you thought my finished baked pizza weight of 791 grams was in the ďzoneĒ.  I see now that the weight of my pizza was in line with your numbers. 

I also didnít think about when a typical HRI goes though those two steps in the bake that perhaps there arenít a lot of losses in weight at those temperatures and bake times because the high oil quantity reduces the rate of evaporation of the water from the dough and also because the hydration of the dough is fairly low in the first place.  I will try a shorter pre-bake in my next attempt.  I knew my bakes times were probably off, but really wasnít sure what to do.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 16, 2013, 05:58:25 PM
FWIW,   this is only an opinion....
Over the past week I have baked 3 HRI frozen pizza's. Not only do I find the taste to be quite bland compared to the last time I had this frozen product(aprox. 2 yrs. ago) but these pizza's are also difficult to bake. Following the package directions got me an overly crisp crust and the rim was just about rock hard. Read somewhere that a defrosted pie will bake up nicer....was a 'lil better but rim was still lifeless and very hard. Pizza #3 was baked on a thick anodized hard coat cutter pan for half of rec. time and then moved to top rack without the pan....this turned out well I must say...but it was still very bland tasting. And I'm talking about a pizza with several toppings on it....it's as if it sapped the flavors right out of my toppings and left me wondering where that good 'ole HRI crust flavor went to. Extremely disappointing and I am done with this product.

The Loo's doctored dough I made before these Frozen HRI product trials was waaay better. And thanks to Norma's recent attempts here at this great pizza I have some tricks up my sleeve that I believe will help get the cloning close to fruition. I'm watching her closely; and, of course, Peter's great guidance/observations. You haven't heard the last from me on this one.  8)

But dang...sure wish this style of pizza wasn't so rich and filling(supposed to be on a diet right now ::) )
Each night my dog looks at me like...."are you sure you meant to give me this many scraps dad? "   :-D

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 16, 2013, 06:05:12 PM
^i also find the frozen pizzas bland...  i would not buy them again.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 16, 2013, 06:16:13 PM
Bob,

As Garvey noted at Reply 183 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190287/topicseen.html#msg190287 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190287/topicseen.html#msg190287) , apparently there is a better way to bake the HRI frozen pizzas than to follow the instructions on the box. In my case, I had no choice but to bake the HRI frozen pizzas when they were completely defrosted since I had dismantled them and put them back together again after I had taken all of my measurements. But, even then, the rims could get quite hard if the pizzas were allowed to bake too long.

I will be interested in Norma's reactions once she has a chance to try out the frozen HRI pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 16, 2013, 06:19:53 PM
I've made a few, and I had a rock hard rim using both Garvey's instructions, and the instructions on the box.

EDIT:  I could have baked them too long, but for the same middle "doneness," other pizzas I make don't get nearly as hard.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 16, 2013, 06:36:42 PM
Bob,

As Garvey noted at Reply 183 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190287/topicseen.html#msg190287 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190287/topicseen.html#msg190287) , apparently there is a better way to bake the HRI frozen pizzas than to follow the instructions on the box. In my case, I had no choice but to bake the HRI frozen pizzas when they were completely defrosted since I had dismantled them and put them back together again after I had taken all of my measurements. But, even then, the rims could get quite hard if the pizzas were allowed to bake too long.

I will be interested in Norma's reactions once she has a chance to try out the frozen HRI pizzas.

Peter
Yes, I forgot to post that on my pie# 3 I reduced the oven temp to 425. Half of that bake was on a thick pan so it was probably close to the results Garvey had at 410 on the rack. It does take a 'lil longer and Garvey hit it on the head with that rec.    You need the extra time to get the ingredients up to temp. and lower oven temp. to avoid the hard brittle rim...I've never seen a frozen pizza take so long to get the sauce and cheese hot. Suppose it is that oil laden dense crust not allowing good heat transfer through the dough.

I made that rant post mainly for Norma's benefit so she has some bake tips in case she scored today on the trip up North with her daughter.... ;)

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 16, 2013, 06:58:27 PM
I find all of your conversations interesting on how to achieve a good bake on a frozen HRI pizzas.  I sure donít know what to try. 

I purchased 5 HRI frozen pizzas at Harris Teeter today.  Harris Teeter didnít have a lot of choices for the HRI frozen pizzas, but at least I should be able to taste what the HRI frozen pizzas taste like.

I should have stayed in MD.  It was about 34 degrees when my daughter and I left home and it was 54 degrees when we arrived at Harris Teeter.  When we came home it was 34 degrees again.  I like warmer weather better. 

Bob, you were right that the Harris Teeter stores are neat.  We ate our way though the samples in the store and I purchased some Shrimp Tempura Sushi to eat and had a Peteyís Bing Black drink.  All the food was good. 

I tried to post the pictures, but this is what it said.  The 3 photos are the right size limit to the best of my knowledge.  The upload folder is full. Please try a smaller file and/or contact an administrator.  I never saw that message when I went to post pictures that the upload folder is full.

I will try in the my next post to post the pictures and see what happens.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 16, 2013, 07:22:21 PM
I find all of your conversations interesting on how to achieve a good bake on a frozen HRI pizzas.  I sure donít know what to try. 

I purchased 5 HRI frozen pizzas at Harris Teeter today.  Harris Teeter didnít have a lot of choices for the HRI frozen pizzas, but at least I should be able to taste what the HRI frozen pizzas taste like.

I should have stayed in MD.  It was about 34 degrees when my daughter and I left home and it was 54 degrees when we arrived at Harris Teeter.  When we came home it was 34 degrees again.  I like warmer weather better. 

Bob, you were right that the Harris Teeter stores are neat.  We ate our way though the samples in the store and I purchased some Shrimp Tempura Sushi to eat and had a Peteyís Bing Black drink.  All the food was good. 

I tried to post the pictures, but this is what it said.  The 3 photos are the right size limit to the best of my knowledge.  The upload folder is full. Please try a smaller file and/or contact an administrator.  I never saw that message when I went to post pictures that the upload folder is full.

I will try in the my next post to post the pictures and see what happens.

Norma
Norma,
I would highly rec. Garvey's way......frozen, middle rack, 410 degrees.   Rotate after 15 min. and then keep your Eagle eye out on it after about another 8 min. You will be golden...trust 'ol Bob!  ;)

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 16, 2013, 07:30:19 PM
Norma,
I would highly rec. Garvey's way......frozen, middle rack, 410 degrees.   Rotate after 15 min. and then keep your Eagle eye out on it after about another 8 min. You will be golden...trust 'ol Bob!  ;)

Bob

Bob,

Thanks for recommending Garvey's method of baking a HRI frozen pizza.  I am too full tonight to try one, but might try to bake one tomorrow.  I purchased two bigger frozen pizzas and 3 small frozen pizzas.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 16, 2013, 08:13:15 PM
If anyone is interested, I sent Steve, the administrator of this forum, a PM why Bob and I couldnít upload pictures on this thread.  Steve told me that the attachment directory was full and he just fixed it.  Thanks Steve.  ;D

These are the pictures I was trying to upload.  I think I will have enough HRI frozen pizzas to decide if I like them or not and also will now be able to examine the crusts.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 16, 2013, 08:18:14 PM
Hey Norma, do they carry sausage HRI at Harrie Teeter?  (Is that the one that's sold out?)  They didn't have it here in Arizona, which is too bad because sausage is my favorite and Bob (I think) said it's good.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 16, 2013, 08:26:09 PM
Hey Norma, do they carry sausage HRI at Harrie Teeter?  (Is that the one that's sold out?)  They didn't have it here in Arizona, which is too bad because sausage is my favorite and Bob (I think) said it's good.

CDNpielover,

No, the Harris Teeter I went to didn't carry the HRI frozen pizza with sausage.  The empty space that was sold out was another brand of frozen pizza.  Sorry to hear in Arizona that there wasn't any HRI frozen sausage pizza either.  I would have liked to been able to try the HRI frozen sausage pizza too. 

Norma 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 16, 2013, 08:47:52 PM
Hey Norma, do they carry sausage HRI at Harrie Teeter?  (Is that the one that's sold out?)  They didn't have it here in Arizona, which is too bad because sausage is my favorite and Bob (I think) said it's good.
CDN,
As always, I recommend people that are new to Chicago pizza to always try a sausage only pie.  Thin or deep...don't matter. And the same is true for a HRI pizza...but be forwarned....their sausage is kinda strange man. But it is what it is and that is still rec. to get the jist of a HRI pizza. It is not your typical Garvey homemade Chi-town fennel and other great spices or my Primio mild good an greazzy stuff. Their sausage borders on a "nasty nugget" wierd texture processed deal...much better ITRW on 31st. Street...but I'm just say'in man.

Frozen wise...I have only seen sausage with pepperoni pie's in their large size.....now the mini's I have seen with sausage only. Not sure why they seem to be all over the map with their different topping availabilities. I assume it has to do with regional favorites but even that appears a bit hokus pokus to me....Craig would know more about these marketing  disparities than I...

Bob

edit: changed "of" to "on" in reference to their sausage being better in person...i.e.  31st. Street
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 16, 2013, 08:49:56 PM
CDN,
As always, I recommend people that are new to Chicago pizza to always try a sausage only pie.  Thin or deep...don't matter. And the same is true for a HRI pizza...but be forwarned....their sausage is kinda strange man. But it is what it is and that is still rec. to get the jist of a HRI pizza. It is not your typical Garvey homemade Chi-town fennel and other great spices or my Primio mild good an greazzy stuff. Their sausage borders on a "nasty nugget" wierd texture processed deal...much better ITRW of 31st. Street...but I'm just say'in man.

Frozen wise...I have only seen sausage and pepperoni pie's in their large size.....the mini's I have seen with sausage only. Not sure why they seem to be all over the map with their different topping availabilities. I assume it has to do with regional favorites but even that appears a bit hokus pokus to me....Craig would know more about these marketing  disparities than I...

Bob

Lol after reading that I can't say I really want to try it!  Not really a fan of their frozen pies anyhow.  :chef:

Garvey's sausage is killer btw
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 16, 2013, 08:59:53 PM
Lol after reading that I can't say I really want to try it!  Not really a fan of their frozen pies anyhow.  :chef:

Garvey's sausage is killer btw
Well CDN...you never know. It will give you a "hit" of being in Chi-town, and my critique may be a bit harsh(but I don't think so 8) ). Heck, if you can even find one ...for the price it ain't gonna break the bank to at least try one. ya never know...you might like it!  ;D

Do you own a dog?    >:D
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 16, 2013, 09:03:41 PM
To be honest, I don't care much for their frozen pizzas...  I think the dough has some interesting qualities, and this thread is great, but it's just not my thing I suppose.  I'm guessing their fresh pizzas are much better than their frozen pies, otherwise I can't understand the hype!   :chef:
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 17, 2013, 11:29:01 AM
I wonder if there are any other mumblings out on the web of them changing their recipe? in my frozen pizzas experience growing up in the burbs I would get home run Inn or reggios.  their sausages are totally different but in my memory I thought their crusts were similar. and they were both good for being frozen pizzas.   anyone have a reggios lately?
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2013, 11:30:57 AM
I emailed Home Run Inn and said they I saw on the web that people seemed to be having problems when trying to bake a frozen HRI pizza in their home ovens.  I said some people have reported the crust became too tough or too brown and I had read the baking instructions on the back of the box and would like HRIís opinion on how to precede with the bake of a frozen pizza so I could have the best results.  I also said I would like my frozen pizzas to turn out like Home Run Innís fresh pizzas out of their conveyor ovens.  This is what Home Run Inn replied to me. 

The directions on the box assuming the oven is calibrated accurately. Create pizza very close the conveyor cooked pizza. Good luck. And let me know how it goes.

I am going to try to bake a HRI small frozen cheese pizza early in the afternoon.

Does anyone have any other questions they want me to ask of Home Run Inn?

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 17, 2013, 11:49:52 AM


Does anyone have any other questions they want me to ask of Home Run Inn?

Norma
Yes Norma I do....ask them how you are supposed to interpret their broken, and incorrect use of English in their response to your polite e-mail inquire.  Good luck.... ::)

"The directions on the box assuming the oven is calibrated accurately. Create pizza very close the conveyor cooked pizza. Good luck. And let me know how it goes."
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2013, 12:14:35 PM
Yes Norma I do....ask them how you are supposed to interpret their broken, and incorrect use of English in their response to your polite e-mail inquire.  Good luck.... ::)

"The directions on the box assuming the oven is calibrated accurately. Create pizza very close the conveyor cooked pizza. Good luck. And let me know how it goes."

Bob,

You know I won't ask HRI that question.  At least they answered me and are interested in hearing how the bake goes.

I think I will use Garvey's and your instructions though.  I know you both know what to do to bake a HRI frozen pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 17, 2013, 12:49:57 PM
Bob,

You know I won't ask HRI that question.

Norma
The sweetest lady on the internet...I still think "Pizza Brain" would do themselves a humongous favor if they hired Norma to handle front end....I know,I know....Ms. Norma ain't going anywhere. But Bob can dream a 'lil with it not costing any thing outta da purse...right?

Bob

Contours .. First I look at the purse .. Nicholas brothers. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8ioa_7axug#)

Edit: for some reason...I sure like that line  "why waste time...look'in at the waist line"    8)
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2013, 01:54:55 PM
I weighed the HRI frozen cheese pizza before the bake and it weighed 226 grams before the bake.  The HRI frozen cheese pizza was baked at about 410 degrees for 23 minutes on my middle rack.  The HRI pizza weighed 209 grams right out of the oven after the bake.  The rim crust was a little brown, but the bottom crust didnít have much of any color at all.

I thought the HRI frozen cheese pizza was good for a frozen pizza.  The sauce was tasty, but didnít have much of any sweetness in my opinion.  I also didnít taste any spices in the sauce.  The cheese also tasted good to me and the crunchiness of the crust was good in my opinion.  I thought there was enough sauce on the HRI frozen cheese pizza.  There wasnít a lot of layers in the crust after the bake, but there were a little at some places.  The unbaked HRI cheese pizza did looked like it had a few docked places on the rim. 

I would try another attempt at an HRI pizza in my deck oven at market, but think my bake temperatures might be too high.

Thanks Garvey and Bob for posting how to bake a frozen HRI pizza.  I donít know if my HRI frozen pizza looked like yours or not after the bake.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2013, 01:57:04 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 17, 2013, 03:29:09 PM
Norma.
I recommended Garvy's 410 degree bake procedure because he seemed to have doubt's/suspicions that perhaps I was not baking the HRI frozen pizza properly...therefore I acknowledged his more recent experiences with this pie and accordingly passed on his tip .
Your fist HRI frozen has some serious gum issues and other things going on also...you know how to read a baked pizza better than I Norma so there's no real reason/benefit to hashing out results of a frozen pizza that lacks any real comparable flavor or texture to it's supposed homage. You wanted to try one in hopes of getting a feel for the approximation of an original for your cloning purposes. Unfortunately the HRI frozen pizza's seem to be a big drag.
Garvey say's he eats one about every week...maybe he has a different oven or set up than ours(and a different recipe pie too in order to surpass the blandness) Maybe he doctor's it up...

Anyway......your last homemade attempt was solid Norma and with Peter's suggestions and the info I have also gleaned from that last home trial of yours....I am confident that all of use will crack this nut sooner than later.... ;)

Both members Garvey and CDNpielover have been giving helpful feedback on this resurrected thread, those guys know how to make good pizza's and it is my hopes that perhaps they can find the time to make a trial pizza from the current recipe's that are now currently being posted..the more objectives the better right folks.  ;)

My next one will be posted up this Wed.   Good luck everyone.....

Bob
 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2013, 04:49:30 PM
Bob,

I really couldnít be sure of the temperature I baked the HRI frozen cheese pizza at.  My oven thermostat knob really isnít right because the oven is over 30 years old.  I tried to take the temperature of my oven with my IR gun, but that isnít always accurate without a pizza stone in my oven.  I know you have a gas oven and really donít recall what kind of oven Garvey has, but do know that different ovens baked differently even if set at the same temperatures.  Some parts of the frozen HRI pizza did have some gum issues, but I donít think that seriously affected the pizza. The link Peter posted before at http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html (http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html) showed that one slice had gum issues too.  I know the texture really wasnít right though if compared to a fresh HRI pizza.  I think CDMpieloverís ultrathin slice texture shot at Reply 334 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242747.html#msg242747 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242747.html#msg242747) was a lot better than what mine regular frozen crust looked like after the bake.  At least the layers could be seen in his slice photo.  I do have a frozen small HRI ultra-thin pizza to try at some point.  I wonder if Peter could explain what his crusts slice looked like from his frozen HRI pizzas, even if he did defrost and take them apart and put them back together again before the bake. 

I hope Garvey, CDNpielover, mrmojo1, loowaters and anyone else that wants to gives the HRI pizza a try will to see what kind of results they would get.  Since I never had a real fresh HRI pizza right out of the deck oven or their conveyor ovens, I probably am not the best judge of what they should taste like. 

Good luck with your next attempt!  ;)

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 17, 2013, 05:10:16 PM
Peter said he saw the same type of flakiness that Garvey had reported on.  :-\

I know this doesn't win me any awards....but I'm calling BS on this whole "layers" of, and or "flakiness". ....Put up a pic and show me man.....a pic of the "original" style.....that is what we are discussing here....post it up ...

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2013, 05:17:26 PM
Peter said he saw the same type of flakiness that Garvey had reported on.  :-\
Bob

Bob,

Thanks for posting what Peter said.  I must have missed that while scanning though this thread.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 17, 2013, 05:26:33 PM
Bob,

Thanks for posting what Peter said.  I must have missed that while scanning though this thread.

Norma
I hear you woman....that is the best time for me to miss something too.  Just when I think my glasses are cleaned real good and I am feeling like I could maybe even speed read the whole world.....up pops a mis quote or something....  :D
Dang it!!  :(
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 17, 2013, 06:55:38 PM
bob and norma, i think this thread is great and i do want to try my hand at Norma's new dough.  I won't be able to try it for about a month though because i'm leaving this week for a remote field station in the Panamaian jungle (haha)!  Hopefully it's not too hot here in Tucson when I get back, because I don't like using the oven when i've got the A/C on.   :chef:  I know Garvey has tried Loo's earlier HRI clone, I'd be interested to hear his comments on Norma's newer formula.   :pizza:
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 17, 2013, 07:34:32 PM
bob and norma, i think this thread is great and i do want to try my hand at Norma's new dough.  I won't be able to try it for about a month though because i'm leaving this week for a remote field station in the Panamaian jungle (haha)!  Hopefully it's not too hot here in Tucson when I get back, because I don't like using the oven when i've got the A/C on.   :chef:  I know Garvey has tried Loo's earlier HRI clone, I'd be interested to hear his comments on Norma's newer formula.   :pizza:
CDN,
Wow!  :o Your job sounds so interesting that it allows you such traveling. It may be that you are used to these changes....but to us it seems exciting. Especially in a damn "jungle" man.  8)
I think your weather in Tucson will still be mild enough one month from now...but who the hell cares dude, just make sure you return home safely!
You are a long standing knowledgeable member here and your posts helped me decide to join up here...for real sir...be safe in your journeys.

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2013, 07:39:32 PM
bob and norma, i think this thread is great and i do want to try my hand at Norma's new dough.  I won't be able to try it for about a month though because i'm leaving this week for a remote field station in the Panamaian jungle (haha)!  Hopefully it's not too hot here in Tucson when I get back, because I don't like using the oven when i've got the A/C on.   :chef:  I know Garvey has tried Loo's earlier HRI clone, I'd be interested to hear his comments on Norma's newer formula.   :pizza:

CDNpielover,

Sounds interesting that you are going to the Panamanian jungle.  Have fun! 

What I tried so far is not really Normaís formula.  Peter made the suggestions on what to try from all of his research and what he has learned about reverse engineering and cloning since this thread was started by Loo.   It should be Peterís newer formula.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 17, 2013, 08:05:45 PM
bob and norma, i think this thread is great and i do want to try my hand at Norma's new dough.  I won't be able to try it for about a month though because i'm leaving this week for a remote field station in the Panamaian jungle (haha)!  Hopefully it's not too hot here in Tucson when I get back, because I don't like using the oven when i've got the A/C on.   :chef:  I know Garvey has tried Loo's earlier HRI clone, I'd be interested to hear his comments on Norma's newer formula.   :pizza:
Peter did comment on Norma's formula.... but believe me....anything goes during the development of this baby over the course of the next 30 days......Bob is excited, and make no mistake...Sir Peter is always the glue in this sort of fun trials experimenting with what one can do with just a few ingredients! That guy...there just never is a befitting word to describe his awesomeness...... 8)   Such a giver, man....



Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 17, 2013, 10:39:50 PM
I know this doesn't win me any awards....but I'm calling BS on this whole "layers" of, and or "flakiness". ....Put up a pic and show me man.....a pic of the "original" style.....that is what we are discussing here....post it up ...

It wins you an award for being wrong.   :-D

Maybe CDNpielover has pix from his recent pie.  Mine's digesting now.  I don't make it a habit to photograph every meal.  Sorry.  8)

I've baked 50-75 HRIs per year for the last eight years or so.  FWIW, Norma, it looks like the crust on your frozen pie was way underdone, as you surmised.  The bottom should be golden brown.  In my gas oven, I go for a really long bake.  I'll even sometimes drop the temp down to 375 to go an extra five minutes to let the crust finish without scorching the top.  Lower in the oven should help, too.  Bare rack, right?

Crispy, crunchity, yeasty, flaky Home Run Inn.  It is like no other pie.

And it's gotta be sausage.  I know to said you couldn't find any, Norma, so I get that.  But what I don't get is your characterization, Bob, of it being nasty.  It is probably the best sausage available on a frozen pizza.  I know that bar is pretty low, but I'd call it pretty good.  And they load it on there.  FWIW, what they have managed to do with a par baked, frozen pizza made widely available...it's pretty damn impressive.

But there's no accounting for taste.  So to the folks who dislike it, it's cool.  I ain't no shill.  For me and my house, I have three options for pizza available in my entire 1.5M person, 14-county metro area.  Make it myself, drive across town to the only edible place in existence, or make a frozen HRI.

And whoever asked about Reggios: the local Aldi carries it from time to time, and we've had a bunch.  It is similar to HRI but a lot drier crust and overall quality just isn't as good.

I doubt any of this feedback helps anybody with anything.  Sorry.

Garvey

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2013, 11:07:43 PM
Garvey,

Yes, I did think my bottom crust was way underdone, but then the top of the pizza looked baked enough on the cheese.  I thought the bottom crust should have been golden brown from the photo referenced by Peter on Slice.  I might take my next HRI frozen pizza to my motherís gas oven for the next bake.  I know her gas oven is a lot newer than my home oven and when her knob is set it is the right temperature.  My mother has liked all the recent attempts I have made at a HRI pizza, but she is anxious to try one of the HRI frozen pizzas.  Thanks for telling me you even sometimes drop the temperature down to 375 degrees F to go an extra five minutes to let the crust finish without scorching the top.  I could also try a lower rack position.  I did bake on the bare rack.  I wanted to ask you if you ever bake those small HRI frozen pizza like I did, or are the ones you bake the larger sizes?  Like I posted I wish I could have found the frozen HRI sausage pizza, but that wasnít in the cards. 

What do you or anyone else think about if I try another HRI attempt in my deck oven at market.  Do you know Garvey what temperatures they used years ago in HRI deck ovens.  I think I messed up different things in my last attempt and think Peter got me straightened out what to try next.  I could make a HRI dough tomorrow morning and let it cold ferment until Tuesday.  My deck oven runs at about 538 degrees F on the bottom deck and a little lower on the top deck.

Your feedback helps me a lot.  ;D  Thanks!

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 18, 2013, 12:36:41 AM
It wins you an award for being wrong.   :-D


Ok then....show me. Like you said recently to me...pic or it didn't happen. Not asking you to "make it a habit to photograph every meal"....I started in on this thread only with the intention of trying to help. I believe that I do sort of know what I am doing when it comes to Chicago and Midwest styles of pizza's. That is why I am attempting to contribute something positive...it is apparent that Norma and Peter, thankfully, are wanting to explore the possibility of creating/clone a modern day HRI pizza.

Garvey, with all due respect sir...and I mean this with utmost sincerity(you know your way around a pizza kitchen no doubt).....please take a look back at your last 5 or 6 posts on this thread. Loo Waters is an accomplished pizza maker(just as you truly are)and he is also a very sweet, helpful man. I have never seen him say anything negative about another's work without being at the ready with (what he believes) may be helpful tips/guidance.

You appear to be "the guy in the know" about HRI on the forum here considering how often you are, lucky dog, able to enjoy their pizza's and make knowledgeable observations. Please help us out here Garvey...add some more inspiration if you can and let's get this nut cracked...I enjoy working with you man. 8)

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 18, 2013, 12:58:45 AM
Hey Garvey, I know I told you I was going to take photos of my frozen HRI, but of course when the time came I just wanted to eat the damn thing.   :-D  I can confirm however that there are distinct pockets/layers.  I was even able to peel them apart, and noticed that they would even go up and around the rim of the pie (as you get if parallel layers get folded up into a rim).  I almost want to take photos now, just to show Bob! 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on March 18, 2013, 01:01:30 AM
Hey Bob, I'm not sure if you've seen these photos, but Garvey did post some really nice shots of the layers here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242747.html#msg242747 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242747.html#msg242747)
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 18, 2013, 01:55:28 AM
Hey Bob, I'm not sure if you've seen these photos, but Garvey did post some really nice shots of the layers here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242747.html#msg242747 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242747.html#msg242747)
I know he did CDN, and in your defense of him, read all of the post I made that has triggered you to put up the links....I stated " let's see picks of an original"  the type of pie we are talking/trying to clone.  The pics and the link are of a HRI "Ultra thin"...Garvey stated that if I'm not getting those results then I am baking it wrong.  I believe the HRI "ultras" bake up differently in our home ovens as compared to the 'ol HRI standby...regular crust. At any rate I think they all are a waste of time and I don't care how you devise a custom way to cook it...it is a bland pizza. And that is sad because they actually put a good amount of sauce on those frozen pie's.

Check this out CDN....and Garvey too......you guys win and I am a looser. Ya'll know more about pizza making than me. You all win OK?
Now go back through the posts and please point out one single time that I ever took an "offensive" or "negative"position.
If you are not part of the solution...you are part of the problem(as they say). I want to have fun and enjoy my time here on this great forum. Let's all be nice to each other and if one has an opposing view...great...but at least qualify it with accuracy.
That's all I have to say about all of that..and if anyone tries to get back at me about this post I will not respond.
All of us on this tread make good pizza's man...let's champion together and see how fast we can come up with an even better HRI pizza. I really think that is not an unreachable goal....nope, not at all.

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 18, 2013, 08:07:57 AM
I mixed another attempt at an HRI dough late last evening, trying to follow Peterís suggestions to mix in a food processor or a stand mixer.  I used cooler tap water and first mixed with the dough hook until all the ingredients were incorporated, then mixed for 4 minutes with the dough hook.  I am going to try to make a HRI pizza in my deck oven at market tomorrow, but am not sure what is the best way to try since my deck oven is probably higher in temperature than what deck temperatures HRI used years ago.

The photos are of the dough in the mixer after it was mixed, the dough ball with poppy seeds and the dough ball this morning top and bottom.  I did drop two poppy seeds on the bottom of the plastic container.  Those are the two black things on the last photo.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 18, 2013, 08:24:30 AM
I donít think this has been posted before, but this article said back in 1998 that frozen Home Run Inn pizzas are even exported to Bolonga, Italy says James Hurley.  James Hurley also said Home Run frozen pizzas are best if they are microwaved, not baked in an oven and that saves minutes.  http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-05-06/business/9805060282_1_export-assistance-center-kraft-foods-pizzas (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-05-06/business/9805060282_1_export-assistance-center-kraft-foods-pizzas)

But perseverance pays off. Hurley, the exporter of Home Run Inn pizzas to Italy, said he shipped to four countries in 1993. "Now it's 40 countries," he added.

I wonder what people think of Home Run Inn frozen pizzas in other countries.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 18, 2013, 09:23:08 AM
Bob--sorry, buddy.  My intent was not to offend, hence the emoticon.  Guess it didn't do the job.

And FWIW, I have never attacked Loo.  I went back and looked at my posts.  They have been constructive and not ad hominem.  Let's bury the invisible hatchet?  We agree about far more about pizza than we ever disagree. 

And for anyone reading, I will reiterate something I've written before: this is the best and most collegial forum in existence.  If I have failed to be constructive, I apologize to Loo and everyone else.  That was not my intent.

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 18, 2013, 09:32:27 AM
I wanted to ask you if you ever bake those small HRI frozen pizza like I did, or are the ones you bake the larger sizes?  Like I posted I wish I could have found the frozen HRI sausage pizza, but that wasnít in the cards. 

They used to have a medium that actually cooked up the best.  It's been a while since I've done the small one.  If I recall correctly, it actually cooked up surprisingly well in the microwave--believe it or not!

What do you or anyone else think about if I try another HRI attempt in my deck oven at market.  Do you know Garvey what temperatures they used years ago in HRI deck ovens.  I think I messed up different things in my last attempt and think Peter got me straightened out what to try next.  I could make a HRI dough tomorrow morning and let it cold ferment until Tuesday.  My deck oven runs at about 538 degrees F on the bottom deck and a little lower on the top deck.

Wow, I really have no idea.  Since they have use conveyor belt ovens, I believe that changes things.  I'd imagine that they cook it slower than 538, though, but that is purely a guess based on the fact that it is a "thick-thin" style.

Cheers,
Garvey
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 18, 2013, 10:01:29 AM
They used to have a medium that actually cooked up the best.  It's been a while since I've done the small one.  If I recall correctly, it actually cooked up surprisingly well in the microwave--believe it or not!

Garvey,

Thanks for telling me that if you recall correctly that the small HRI frozen pizza baked up surprisingly well in the microwave.  I have to look on one other small boxes to see what kind of instructions HRI has for microwaving their frozen pizzas.


Wow, I really have no idea.  Since they have use conveyor belt ovens, I believe that changes things.  I'd imagine that they cook it slower than 538, though, but that is purely a guess based on the fact that it is a "thick-thin" style.

Cheers,
Garvey

Thanks also for telling me you would imagine HRI bake temperatures were lower than mine when baking their pizzas years ago. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 18, 2013, 09:25:06 PM
Norma,

To bake an HRI clone pizza at market using your deck oven with its high temperature, you might put a screen or two or its equivalent (maybe an upside down pan) under your perforated disk or cutter pan to keep the pizza from baking too fast.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 18, 2013, 10:14:51 PM
Norma,

To bake an HRI clone pizza at market using your deck oven with its high temperature, you might put a screen or two or its equivalent (maybe an upside down pan) under your perforated disk or cutter pan to keep the pizza from baking too fast.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for suggesting a screen or two, or an upside down pan under the perforated disk to keep the pizza from baking too fast.  I have plenty of screens and pans at market. 

I want to ask you another question.  Do I still do a pre-bake of the crust, or do you know if HRI years ago just baked their pizzas on the deck?  I had thought about using screens under the perforated disk, but really didnít know if I should  proceed with a pre-bake of the crust or not. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 18, 2013, 10:31:16 PM
I want to ask you another question.  Do I still do a pre-bake of the crust, or do you know if HRI years ago just baked their pizzas on the deck?  I had thought about using screens under the perforated disk, but really didnít know if I should  proceed with a pre-bake of the crust or not. 
Norma,

I don't recall reading how the pizzas were baked in the early deck ovens at HRI but I suspect a pre-bake was not used. Also, since one of the YouTube videos that was referenced earlier in this thread showed a skin on a peel, it's possible that the pizza was fully dressed on the peel and baked directly on the stone surface of the deck oven.  I think I would be inclined to pre-bake the docked skin since one of the objectives is to try to replicate the flaky characteristic of an HRI pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 18, 2013, 10:48:25 PM
Norma,

I think I would be inclined to pre-bake the docked skin since one of the objectives is to try to replicate the flaky characteristic of an HRI pizza.

Peter

Peter,

I will pre-bake the docked skin from your suggestion.  I know one of the objectives is to try to replicate the flaky characteristic of an HRI pizza. 

I can always try the whole pizza baked at once at some other point in time in my deck oven.  I know I still would have to use disks and screens though when I try the whole bake at once because my oven temperatures are too hot.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 18, 2013, 10:54:28 PM
Norma,

You can get the flavor of how the early HRI pizzas were made when they used deck ovens from BTB's post at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51572.html#msg51572 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51572.html#msg51572) . See also his follow-up post at Reply 10.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 18, 2013, 11:24:06 PM
Norma,

You can get the flavor of how the early HRI pizzas were made when they used deck ovens from BTB's post at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51572.html#msg51572 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51572.html#msg51572) . See also his follow-up post at Reply 10.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing the link to Reply 4 and telling me to also read BTBĎs follow-up post at Reply 10.  BTBís descriptions of how the early HRI pizzas were made were very good.  I see BTB said no dough dockers were used then, so that alone is good information. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 18, 2013, 11:58:16 PM
Bob where you at?   I miss you already!  You're always so up and fun!  I like it much more when the discussion seems to be about learning and being helpful and not about who's right and who's wrong. 


Garvey, you have so much to offer!   You've been so helpful to so many!  and you make killer pizzas!  but I have to admit, I may have misinterpreted the tones of some of your responses as well.  I think even Petezza did at one point.   so I apologize as well.  And thanks for reaching out to bob and the group in general!  I really love the positive and kind nature of this site! The people that make it here really make it great!  -ter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 19, 2013, 07:39:56 AM
 ;D
Thanks for referencing the link to Reply 4 and telling me to also read BTBĎs follow-up post at Reply 10.  BTBís descriptions of how the early HRI pizzas were made were very good.  I see BTB said no dough dockers were used then, so that alone is good information. 
Norma,

I suspect that dough dockers had not yet been invented in the 1940s, but came later with the creation and growth of the big pizza chains and the use of conveyor ovens. It is possible, however, that bubble poppers were used with deck ovens.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 19, 2013, 07:52:17 AM
It is possible, however, that bubble poppers were used with deck ovens.

This is interesting, Peter, because it's not something we've talked a lot about on the Chicago Style forum.  Don't mean to take the discussion too far afield or O/T, but I'm wondering how many folks here need to pop bubbles on their Chicago Thin? 

My buddy Dave, who worked at Pizza Factory, had that as one of this duties: to eyeball the pizzas early-/mid-bake and pop any bubbles.  I've found that with my 72-hr cold ferment, my doughs aren't that active once they hit the oven. The do bubble sometimes, but it's very rare.  And if I happen to use the dough at a younger stage, 24- or 48-hrs, then I definitely have to do a bubble check.  (Edit: I've also noticed that very lightly topped pizzas tend to bubble more often--e.g., when I make a "kids' pizza" with less sauce, cheese only.  Maybe the extra ballast of sauce and toppings on a normal pie has a regulating effect.)

Of course, you can buy a long-handled bubble popper if you have a commercial operation, but I found that a two-pronged carving fork suits me fine.

Cheers,
Garvey

[P.S.  Thanks for the feedback, Mr. Mojo.  Need to tame my tongue.  Peace.]
   
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 19, 2013, 10:23:46 AM
the only time I need to bubble pop,  is when I laminate and use the sheeter.   Same dough same oven no lamination no bubbles to speak of.  Garvey I swear those pics of your hri with the layers looks like when I laminate!  Good stuff gang! 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 19, 2013, 10:36:03 AM
Dude, I forgot you have a sheeter at home!  So jealous.

Had a chance to buy a floor-standing model for $300 and foolishly passed.  I truly do not have the space for it anywhere, not even store it temporarily.  But in hindsight, I should have bought it and tried to trade someone for a tabletop sheeter.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 19, 2013, 10:29:38 PM
Thats a good idea Garvey!  i bet you could trade!  keep your eyes peeled!  you would no doubt get a lot of use out of it! as of late ive been looking for a hobart slicer, so i can make real chicago italian beef.  but man those are spendy!  the sheeter i use 1-2 times a week, but the slicer would probably only be once in a while....so i need to find a real steal to justify it!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 20, 2013, 08:22:59 AM




The HRI dough ball wasnít warmed-up very long.  It was just put into my Hatco Unit until the chill was taken off of the dough ball.  The dough ball when rolling into a skin was cooler in the middle of the dough.  The skin wanted to become a little extensible when transferring it to the disk after docking the skin. After trying to flute the rim it wanted to flop over in some places, so the skin on the disk was put back into the pizza prep fridge to firm up the rim some. I also saw the dough want to slump some in the holes of the disk near the edges.  The rim was firmer after it cooled more, but when doing the pre-bake it still wanted to slump a little in some places.  That was tried to be fixed by using tongs to straighten up the fluted rim in a couple of places while the skin was pre-baking.  I used 2 screens and a perforated aluminum disk besides the dark disk to try the pre-bake.  I think I used too many screens because the rim of the crust was browning quicker than the bottom. 

The sauce, cheese and pepperoni were then applied after the pre-bake skin was taken out of the oven and the pizza just went back into the oven on the one dark disk after the ingredients were applied.  There still wasnít much of any bottom crust browning when the toppings looked like they were almost finished baking, so the pizza was taken off of the disk and baked right on the deck.

The pizza was very tasty, and the rim crust was flaky, but the bottom crust didnít have the layers it should have had.  Steve also liked this attempted HRI pizza when he doesnít normally like thin crust pizzas.  The bottom crust was easy to eat and was somewhat flaky in texture as was the rim crust.

I was also somewhat surprised that the amount of IDY used didnít make the dough ferment more.

I wonder how to really mix this high amount of corn oil with the water and flour and sure donít know if I am trying it right.  In this article by Tom Lehmann http://www.pizzatoday.com/magazine/2013-march-dough-doctor?A=SearchResult&SearchID=3880899&ObjectID=6164617&ObjectType=35#.UUmTJRzqlp4 (http://www.pizzatoday.com/magazine/2013-march-dough-doctor?A=SearchResult&SearchID=3880899&ObjectID=6164617&ObjectType=35#.UUmTJRzqlp4) Tom in the question about ďweather influencing the amount of water added to the doughď, Tom says that if the mixer is stopped that might affect some of the flour absorbing the oil..  That portion of the flour will not create gluten as the dough is mixed, thus creating a dough that may appear to be softer.  Tom also says the best way to eliminate that problem is to use what he refers to as a delayed oil addition mixing method.  That allows the flour to fully hydrate before the oil is added.  I wonder if that also applies when a lot of corn oil is in a dough like HRI.

Tom Lehmann also mentions about the same thing about when to add oil in this article near the end of the article, but the oil amount is not nearly as high as what I have been adding to the water.  http://www.pizzatoday.com/magazine/2009-november-dough-doctor?A=SearchResult&SearchID=3880929&ObjectID=6242961&ObjectType=35#.UUmWzRzqlp4 (http://www.pizzatoday.com/magazine/2009-november-dough-doctor?A=SearchResult&SearchID=3880929&ObjectID=6242961&ObjectType=35#.UUmWzRzqlp4)

Tom also discusses something along similar lines at http://www.pizzatoday.com/magazine/2011-june-dough-doctor#.UUmZJBzqlp4 (http://www.pizzatoday.com/magazine/2011-june-dough-doctor#.UUmZJBzqlp4)  which might include not have a combined water and oil amount of more than 56 to 60 percent, but I donĎt know if that apples to a HRI dough.  I know my water/oil ratio is higher than 56 to 60 percent.   

I am wondering if a delayed oil addition (maybe in trying to drizzle the corn in after first mixing the other ingredients) might be better for a HRI dough.  I am having some confusion as what to try.  I think my oil/water ratio might be too high, or either I might not be mixing right, or enough. 

Since I never really ate a fresh HRI pizza I donít know really what is going on in the taste, looks and texture of my HRI crust.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 20, 2013, 08:37:13 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 20, 2013, 08:40:17 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 20, 2013, 08:42:44 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 20, 2013, 10:49:12 AM
that looks very delicious Norma!!!  thanks for all your work on this!!!!   boy i wonder from some of the pics.  if they dont fold that dough ball somehow before they put it in the press.  the layers Garvey showed in his pictures of the frozen pizza dont seem like they could just be naturally occurring?  your pizza looks flakey and delicious!!!  great great work!!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 20, 2013, 12:11:00 PM
boy i wonder from some of the pics.  if they don't fold that dough ball somehow before they put it in the press.
Terry,

I have seen zero evidence of this--either for the frozen pizza operations going back to the 1990s and to the present, or in the HRI pizzerias. Since we have been talking largely about the HRI frozen pizzas, take a look at the photo at page 24 of the article at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14 (http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14) where you can see the dough balls heading for their untimely demise as they enter the hot presses and are subjected to 600 to 800 pounds of pressure for 10 seconds. Apparently that torture does not affect the nature of the finished crust from the standpoint of flakiness. If you look at the photo of page 26 of the article, you can see what appears to be the exiting of the pressed skins from the hot press area.

It also appears from the photo I first mentioned that the dough balls don't even have to be nicely rounded. You can even see where a worker put little dough balls on top of bigger dough balls to get the required weight.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 20, 2013, 02:50:36 PM
You sure are right Pete!  Could it be something related to that hot press?  Those layers are so distinct!  I wish we could see a crust done with and without the hot press.  Thank you for the valuable info and followup!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 20, 2013, 03:13:18 PM
You sure are right Pete!  Could it be something related to that hot press?  Those layers are so distinct!  I wish we could see a crust done with and without the hot press.  Thank you for the valuable info and followup!
Good thinking Terry,

I would not doubt that it has everything to do with that. Member John "Fazzari" has discovered from extensive laminating experiments that it is steam(not hot oil)that causes pronounced layering/separations in his pizza doughs. Possibly that is what is going on here with the HRI crust.

Bob

I'm going to take my dough to the dry cleaners and ask them to steam press it for me..... ;D
...not really, but I got some ideas to try.  ;)
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 20, 2013, 03:38:02 PM
that looks very delicious Norma!!!  thanks for all your work on this!!!!   

Terry,

The attempted HRI pizza was good, but sure was missing those layers in the bottom crust.  I am not sure how to be able to try and achieve those flaky layers.  That is beyond me.  The only thing I could try is to use my Euro Steam cleaner.  The Euro Steam does provide a powerful burst of steam (or gradual steam) with different attachments I have for it.  If anyone wants me to give that I try I can.  I am not sure what temperature that steam is though. The steam might be too hot. I know the steam is under a lot of pressure though. 

If years ago HRI still had though layers in the bottom crust, those layers sure weren't caused by steam in my opinion.  I don't know if HRI did laminate their skins way back then though.

On the first experiment I did with that small dough ball, there were some layers.  I still can't figure that out either. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 20, 2013, 04:02:08 PM
I just recalled that I think I also have a travel steamer for clothes that I used to use when I went on vacations.  I donít recall where I stored that travel steamer, but I can look for it if anyone thinks it might help this thread.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 20, 2013, 04:09:27 PM
The steam comes from heating the water (hydration) than is already present in the dough.
Applying steam to the outer surface of a dough will make a dumpling.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 20, 2013, 04:16:53 PM
The steam comes from heating the water (hydration) than is already present in the dough.
Applying steam to the outer surface of a dough will make a dumpling.

Bob,

Thanks for explaining that to me.  I guess my ideas are way off.   :-D  I really don't understand how steam is applied to make layers.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 20, 2013, 04:48:01 PM
I don't know precisely how hot presses will affect the crumb structure of a dough using a very high amount of oil, but I did research them in general and discussed them in the companion HRI thread at Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51754.html#msg51754 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51754.html#msg51754) and also in this thread at Reply 188 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190395.html#msg190395 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190395.html#msg190395). Reference is made in those posts to an article on presses by Tom Lehmann but there is also another Tom Lehmann article on hot (and cold) presses at http://web.archive.org/web/20100626072731/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2002summer/doughformer.shtml (http://web.archive.org/web/20100626072731/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2002summer/doughformer.shtml). From what Tom has said, a dough with 3-5% oil is especially good for use with presses. For a more recent article that discusses presses, see the article by Sarah Colombo at http://web.archive.org/web/20090607015955/http://www.pmq.com/mag/200805/topform.php (http://web.archive.org/web/20090607015955/http://www.pmq.com/mag/200805/topform.php) .

In addition to the hot press and its possible affect on crumb structure, including flakiness, I think that one should also consider the way the dough is made, the way the skins are pre-baked, and the temperatures and durations of the various bake steps (pre-bake and final bake).

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 20, 2013, 05:11:40 PM


In addition to the hot press and its possible affect on crumb structure, including flakiness, I think that one should also consider the way the dough is made, the way the skins are pre-baked, and the temperatures and durations of the various bake steps (pre-bake and final bake).

Peter
Absolutely....the "dough press" is not a magic bullet(per say). It works in conjunction with HRI's "total package" process.
Now we have to figure a way around....I think it is attainable and have a feeling that the "hot press" only serves to lend a hand in, their sheer volume of mass production.

Has it been determined if the original HRI pizza was in fact developed with the assistance of a hot dough press? 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 20, 2013, 05:25:50 PM
Has it been determined if the original HRI pizza was in fact developed with the assistance of a hot dough press?
Bob,

Yes. In the early days, HRI used a sheeter or roller of some sort. This was discussed at Reply 191 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190482.html#msg190482 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190482.html#msg190482) . Once dressed, the pizzas were baked directly on the stone surface of a deck oven. HRI went to hot presses because it increased its throughput by threefold. The conveyor ovens got around having to rely on skilled oven tenders such as the operators who formerly managed deck ovens

Peter

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 20, 2013, 05:49:02 PM
Bob,

Yes. In the early days, HRI used a sheeter or roller of some sort. This was discussed at Reply 191 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190482.html#msg190482 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190482.html#msg190482) . Once dressed, the pizzas were baked directly on the stone surface of a deck oven. HRI went to hot presses because it increased its throughput by threefold. The conveyor ovens got around having to rely on skilled oven tenders such as the operators who formerly managed deck ovens

Peter
I'm a little curious as to the actual temperature of their in house dough presses...but it doesn't really matter. Knowing that they did in fact start out with a sheeter/roller...that's all I need to know.
I have a feeling that straight on a hot stone is going to be key to accomplishing this in a home oven.

Please tell me if Bob is thinking crazy when he is wondering about maybe using a pre-baked and then frozen crust as a base. I know the oil to hydration ration will take some trials and believe it actually is going to be quite different to what is commonly believed. I'm not all too concerned about fermentation on this pizza(that's jus me) Thoughts?

Thanks Peter.

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 20, 2013, 06:26:49 PM
I'm a little curious as to the actual temperature of their in house dough presses...but it doesn't really matter. Knowing that they did in fact start out with a sheeter/roller...that's all I need to know.
I have a feeling that straight on a hot stone is going to be key to accomplishing this in a home oven.

Please tell me if Bob is thinking crazy when he is wondering about maybe using a pre-baked and then frozen crust as a base. I know the oil to hydration ration will take some trials and believe it actually is going to be quite different to what is commonly believed. I'm not all too concerned about fermentation on this pizza(that's jus me) Thoughts?
Bob,

The most detailed article that I am aware of that describes how HRI made pizzas in its pizzerias as of 2011 is the article that is reproduced in Reply 188 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190395.html#msg190395 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190395.html#msg190395). The article was reproduced there because the link rarely works and, when it does, the article, including at least one photo, vanishes into the ethers.

In its current frozen pizza plants, HRI currently uses two pre-bakes, or perhaps more accurately, one pre-bake and one par-bake. The pre-bake takes place at 490 degrees F for 90 seconds. This is for the skin as it comes out of the hot press and is docked. There is no carrier for the skin, as is used, for example, in the HRI pizzerias. Once the sauce, cheese and toppings are placed down onto the pre-baked crust, the completed pizza is baked for another three minutes at a temperature of 495 degrees F. The target temperature for the pizza is about 165 degrees F. Eventually, the par-baked pizza is flash frozen and packaged. I mention all this because I am not sure how par-baking an HRI clone crust and then freezing it will emulate a crust of a typical HRI frozen pizza. Maybe you can try to emulate the way that HRI makes its frozen pizzas, up to the point where they are par-baked and frozen, and freeze your own version. Maybe freezing has an effect of the final crust. I have been laboring under the impression that the HRI pizzas made in its pizzerias also have flaky crusts. If so, that might rule out the notion of freezing the pre-baked crust.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 20, 2013, 06:43:45 PM
Thanks for those temps.

I believe you misunderstood my idea about freezing a crust.  I am not interested in recreating a HRI frozen pizza.

I am wondering if freezing the base(pizza crust) might somehow cause the frozen water in that dough to release more steam, cause more layering within this oil laden formula...after the frozen crust is traditionally topped and then placed on a hot stone.   Use a frozen crust to make a fresh pizza...that is what I am trying to say.

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: pythonic on March 21, 2013, 12:19:26 PM
Will crisco give it layers?
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 21, 2013, 01:58:53 PM
I believe you misunderstood my idea about freezing a crust.  I am not interested in recreating a HRI frozen pizza.

I am wondering if freezing the base(pizza crust) might somehow cause the frozen water in that dough to release more steam, cause more layering within this oil laden formula...after the frozen crust is traditionally topped and then placed on a hot stone.   Use a frozen crust to make a fresh pizza...that is what I am trying to say.

Bob,

Actually, I did understand your post but thought that you might want to consider taking the matter a further step and make a frozen par-baked pizza. I also sought to draw a distinction between a frozen par-baked crust and a frozen par-baked pizza, as noted in this excerpt from my post:

I mention all this because I am not sure how par-baking an HRI clone crust and then freezing it will emulate a crust of a typical HRI frozen pizza. Maybe you can try to emulate the way that HRI makes its frozen pizzas, up to the point where they are par-baked and frozen, and freeze your own version. Maybe freezing has an effect of the final crust. I have been laboring under the impression that the HRI pizzas made in its pizzerias also have flaky crusts. If so, that might rule out the notion of freezing the pre-baked crust.

However, I do understand your point better now and can only suggest that you give your idea a try. Maybe the water crystals that form and expand during freezing do something to the internal structure of the crust that creates the flaky character of an HRI crust. However, as I noted in the last sentence of the above excerpt, if the HRI pizzas made in their pizzerias (from dough that has not been frozen) also have flaky crusts, then that might rule out the notion of freezing a pre-baked crust.

In your case, to make the final pizza would you let the frozen par-baked crust defrost first and then dress and bake, or would you dress the par-baked crust while still frozen and then bake?

Peter

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on March 21, 2013, 02:00:19 PM
I donít think this has been posted before, but this article said back in 1998 that frozen Home Run Inn pizzas are even exported to Bolonga, Italy says James Hurley.  James Hurley also said Home Run frozen pizzas are best if they are microwaved, not baked in an oven and that saves minutes.  http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-05-06/business/9805060282_1_export-assistance-center-kraft-foods-pizzas (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-05-06/business/9805060282_1_export-assistance-center-kraft-foods-pizzas)

But perseverance pays off. Hurley, the exporter of Home Run Inn pizzas to Italy, said he shipped to four countries in 1993. "Now it's 40 countries," he added.
Has anyone microwaved a HRI pizza? The claim that they are better nuked is hard to believe. I've never had good pizza from a microwave.

I wonder what people think of Home Run Inn frozen pizzas in other countries.

Norma

Has anyone microwaved a HRI pizza? It's hard to believe the claim that it's better when nuked. I've never had good pizza from a microwave.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 21, 2013, 02:45:42 PM
Has anyone microwaved a HRI pizza? It's hard to believe the claim that it's better when nuked. I've never had good pizza from a microwave.

I made one of those tiny ones for my wife one time.  It comes with the shiny insert in the box that you put the pizza on top of.  IIRC, it came out surprisingly good.  I was completely shocked.

But again, that was just one time I tried that, and it was years ago.  I never buy the small ones.  Can't even say why I did that time.

Garvey
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2013, 04:20:04 PM
I am going to give the HRI dough and pizza a stab again.  This time I dropped the hydration some,  dropped the yeast amount and dropped the corn oil amount from what I used before.  I knew I was going to babysit my great-granddaughter this afternoon for a couple of hours, so I decided to use a 13Ē desired pizza size in the expanded dough calculation tool, so my great-granddaughter could also roll some pizza dough.   

The method I used for mixing this time was to mix the water flour, yeast and salt with the flat beater and after all that came together I keep using the flat beater and drizzled all the corn oil in the dough slowly.  After the dough was mixed more, I then changed over to the dough hook and mixed for 6 more minutes.  The dough came together well.  The dough was then balled. I left the dough sit for one hour to ferment some.  Then I rolled the dough ball into a skin.  The dough rolled very well and I think I could have stretched it like regular pizza dough, but that isnít what I wanted to try.  I then folded the skin and it went into the fridge until Saturday.

My great-granddaughter also rolled her small dough ball and I left that skin out to room temperature ferment.  The last picture is of what the skin looked like after awhile at room temperature.  I am going to try and use my great-granddaughter skin to try and bake a regular small pizza after while.  I put the skin in the fridge for right now until I have time to flute the skin, dress the pizza and bake it right on my pizza stone.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2013, 04:22:29 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 21, 2013, 04:38:01 PM
This time I dropped the hydration some,  dropped the yeast amount and dropped the corn oil amount from what I used before.   
I think this is a good direction(I would have liked to see the oil level stay high though, just my opinion and what I'll do on my next one).

Norma, you said you folded that dough and put it away till Sat.   On my next attempt I am going to try the letter/book fold and rerolling trick such as is done in some of the cracker threads we have seen others doing.

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2013, 04:58:17 PM
I think this is a good direction(I would have liked to see the oil level stay high though, just my opinion and what I'll do on my next one).

Norma, you said you folded that dough and put it away till Sat.   On my next attempt I am going to try the letter/book fold and rerolling trick such as is done in some of the cracker threads we have seen others doing.

Bob

Bob,

What oil level are you going to try?  I am trying 17%.

I am thinking along the lines of letting the dough cold ferment for my bigger skin to see what happens.  I am not going to roll the dough again.  What I am really trying to do is to see if the skin really doe not have to be pre-bake if somehow the layers will appear when the whole pizza is baked.  For my great-granddaughterís skin, I wanted to see if the whole pizza can be made in a few hours.

Look forward to your experiments.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2013, 06:08:56 PM
This is what my great-granddaughterís pizza looked like.  I thought it tasted good, but am not sure what I am looking for.  The pizza was baked at 480 degrees F.

The fluted edge did stay upright this time.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 21, 2013, 07:39:41 PM
This is what my great-granddaughterís pizza looked like.  I thought it tasted good, but am not sure what I am looking for.  The pizza was baked at 480 degrees F.

The fluted edge did stay upright this time.

Norma
You have taught her well Norma.  :chef:

I know I said I was leaving behind the bland HRI grocery store frozen pizza's....but I still have some left over from when I was going to send some to you.
Soooo....last night I baked up another.

I did the Garvey 410 degree bake with a regular size cheese and pepperoni pizza that I allowed to defrost before cooking. No extra doctored up toppings this time. Just a straight HRI product.

This pizza was very good. No brittle/hard rim now. I am a sauce lover and this pie had plenty of it. Bottom crust had nice flakiness to it.

I was finally put in mind of how a HRI pizza tastes like on 31st. St.(been a long time since I've been there).

It was not "spot on", of course but the rich flavor from the crust came through in every bite.

Norma, I'm reporting this because I know you have never had "the real deal" but since you have recently tried the frozen one's now, hopefully, one of those turned out the same as what I had last night and now you can be more assured of what to look for.

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 21, 2013, 07:58:10 PM
I am a sauce lover and this pie had plenty of it. Bottom crust had nice flakiness to it.

I was finally put in mind of how a HRI pizza tastes like on 31st. St.(been a long time since I've been there).

It was not "spot on", of course but the rich flavor from the crust came through in every bite.

Yeah, you gotta figure that no parbaked, frozen pizza will be as good as the real deal.  But for the frozen aisle, it's darn good.  And to be honest, it's better than almost every pizza joint in this entire stinkin' Southern town.

And you're right, Bob, it's tres saucy.  A key feature of HRI (frozen and real).  Heck, a key feature of all Chicago thin, if you ask me.

Cheers,
Garvey
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 21, 2013, 08:00:41 PM
On my next attempt I am going to try the letter/book fold and rerolling trick such as is done in some of the cracker threads we have seen others doing.

Cool!  I was hoping someone would try that.  My wife does something kinda like that when she makes biscuits, and they are so layery and great.  I asked her if she'd get involved with my next pizzamaking experiment, to do the pizza dough that way.  She just rolled her eyes at me.

 ::)

Garvey

P.S. I was kinda bummed when you said you were only kidding about taking your pizza dough to the drycleaner's.  That would have been awesome.  :D
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 21, 2013, 09:43:48 PM
oh yeah Norma!! i think thats going get you some layers!!! I cant wait to see the results! and oh my gosh your great grand daughter is so lucky!!!  you're an awesome ggrandma!  teaching her pizza making!! and you know so many different kinds of pizza!! that is so great!

i think i am going to have to get some frozen hri's shipped!  i cant stand it anymore.  all this talk!  and bob and garveys latest descriptions are killing me!!  man! i loved frozen hri's growing up.  and i did microwave the small ones all the time...why?  because i couldn't wait that long that it took to oven cook one...and oh boy i loved em!  i think it was 5 min on high on the silver disc.   i used to be able to get them shipped from tastes of chicago...but now they're gone!   i must search more!!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2013, 10:34:21 PM

I know I said I was leaving behind the bland HRI grocery store frozen pizza's....but I still have some left over from when I was going to send some to you.
Soooo....last night I baked up another.

I did the Garvey 410 degree bake with a regular size cheese and pepperoni pizza that I allowed to defrost before cooking. No extra doctored up toppings this time. Just a straight HRI product.

This pizza was very good. No brittle/hard rim now. I am a sauce lover and this pie had plenty of it. Bottom crust had nice flakiness to it.

I was finally put in mind of how a HRI pizza tastes like on 31st. St.(been a long time since I've been there).

It was not "spot on", of course but the rich flavor from the crust came through in every bite.

Norma, I'm reporting this because I know you have never had "the real deal" but since you have recently tried the frozen one's now, hopefully, one of those turned out the same as what I had last night and now you can be more assured of what to look for.

Bob

Bob,

I am surprised that you liked the HRI frozen pizza now, but that is good that it gave you memories of a real HRI pizza.

I haven't tried any of the other frozen HRI pizzas.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2013, 10:42:01 PM
oh yeah Norma!! i think thats going get you some layers!!! I cant wait to see the results! and oh my gosh your great grand daughter is so lucky!!!  you're an awesome ggrandma!  teaching her pizza making!! and you know so many different kinds of pizza!! that is so great!

i think i am going to have to get some frozen hri's shipped!  i cant stand it anymore.  all this talk!  and bob and garveys latest descriptions are killing me!!  man! i loved frozen hri's growing up.  and i did microwave the small ones all the time...why?  because i couldn't wait that long that it took to oven cook one...and oh boy i loved em!  i think it was 5 min on high on the silver disc.   i used to be able to get them shipped from tastes of chicago...but now they're gone!   i must search more!!!

Terry,

I donít know what the other skin will, or will not do, in layers.  Thanks for saying my great-granddaughter is lucky.  She likes to try anything, so I donít know if she will like to make pizzas in the future.  She also talks your ear off.  She said so many funny things today.   :-D

I hope you can get some HRI frozen pizzas.  ;D Good to hear you liked the small ones microwaved.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 21, 2013, 11:15:44 PM
oops!  im sorry Norma! i thought you said you were gonna fold it a bunch and re roll it, i mis-read that! bob's the one who is gonna try that!  i am still very excited about seeing the results of your next skin!  you ggrandaughter's little pie looked pretty darn good, i didnt see layers but i saw a lot of nice bubbles, it looked crispy and airy and delicious!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2013, 11:41:44 PM
oops!  im sorry Norma! i thought you said you were gonna fold it a bunch and re roll it, i mis-read that! bob's the one who is gonna try that!  i am still very excited about seeing the results of your next skin!  you ggrandaughter's little pie looked pretty darn good, i didnt see layers but i saw a lot of nice bubbles, it looked crispy and airy and delicious!

Terry,

No need to say you are sorry.  I did try to laminate doughs at one time, but never experimented with that method enough to get consistent results. 

I am sure HRI isnít using the method of letting the skin ferment for a few days, but wanted to see if that method works to create layers in the baked crust. 

My great-grandaughterís pie was good in my opinion.  It was very tender when eaten. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 22, 2013, 07:48:45 PM

This picture of an HRI cheese pizza was posted on facebook a few hours ago.  I wonder if the cheese on the HRI cheese pizza is a little too dark.

https://www.facebook.com/homeruninn (https://www.facebook.com/homeruninn)

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 22, 2013, 07:58:45 PM
looks like the lighter half has sausage on it....I've seen plain cheese pies that brown(heck, I try for that when making Chicago thin pizza :))
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 22, 2013, 08:03:58 PM
 ^^^What Bob said.  Brown all over is the way to go.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 22, 2013, 08:50:31 PM
looks like the lighter half has sausage on it....I've seen plain cheese pies that brown(heck, I try for that when making Chicago thin pizza :))

Bob,

I am not sure, but think it is a cheese HRI pizza.  I learn something new everyday if the cheese is supposed to be that brown.


 ^^^What Bob said.  Brown all over is the way to go.


Thanks Garvey for also telling me the cheese is supposed to be that brown.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 22, 2013, 08:54:40 PM
gang, could we simulate an HRI hot press with a cast iron pan or something we heat to the specs peter posted and push down hard!!!!!  maybe start with a 6 incher???  anyone tried this?  i was thinking of those old fashoin irons with no holes on the bottom you heat on the stove?  heee!  it just might not work!!! 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 22, 2013, 09:01:04 PM
gang, could we simulate an HRI hot press with a cast iron pan or something we heat to the specs peter posted and push down hard!!!!!  maybe start with a 6 incher???  anyone tried this?  i was thinking of those old fashoin irons with no holes on the bottom you heat on the stove?  heee!  it just might not work!!!

Terry,

Lol, love your creative thinking.  ;D I sure don't know about trying something like you propose, but I have some of those old irons. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 22, 2013, 09:03:40 PM
i cant say i can explain the physics/chemistry of it, but with that hot press they use. heat is being distributed/ diffusing through monolayers at a set time, so you should legitimately get a layer that cooks and separates from the uncooked mass of dough beneath as the press pulls these "cooked" layers away as it compresses.  then another layer gets to that "cooked point" i mean not really cooked but h20 moved out of it maybe?  and it rips away from the uncooked gooey layer below till  the whole mass is slightly cooked and you have layers.  so the heat and spreading force cooks a monolayer and then tears it away locally from the uncooked areas underneathe? just a thought....trying to imagine in my head what is going on locally.....in the dough.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 22, 2013, 09:07:38 PM
Terry,

Lol, love your creative thinking.  ;D I sure don't know about trying something like you propose, but I have some of those old irons. 

Norma

hee!!  i dont want you to ruin your dough!!!  i need to seek out peter's posts of the temps of those presses and the times!  i do have a cast iron pan!!!! what fun!!  Norma, read the review of your new york pizza here!  saw those pics!  man you are so adept at so many different pizzas your new york looked awesome!!!!!  the reviewer also thought so!  way to go!!!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 22, 2013, 09:12:47 PM
hee!!  i dont want you to ruin your dough!!!  i need to seek out peter's posts of the temps of those presses and the times!  i do have a cast iron pan!!!! what fun!!  Norma, read the review of your new york pizza here!  saw those pics!  man you are so adept at so many different pizzas your new york looked awesome!!!!!  the reviewer also thought so!  way to go!!!!

Terry,

I would not try your idea on the skin I have cold fermenting, but I wouldn't see how you could control the temperature of something like you want to try.  I wish you luck if you decide to use your cast iron pan.  I have different cast iron pans too.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 22, 2013, 09:13:46 PM
there has to be a patent out there on those dough presses, and in the claims of those inventions they should iterate every advantage they may have to the pizza making process, and if they do indeed induce layers they should speak of it in those claims in order to be protected and to have a stronger patent....i wonder if HRI has any patents....i need to search!!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 22, 2013, 09:16:10 PM
Terry,

I would not try your idea on the dough I have cold fermenting, but I wouldn't see how you could control the temperature of something like you want to try.  I wish you luck if you decide to use your cast iron pan.  I have different cast iron pans too.   :-D

Norma
i need to check the temps, but if the cast iron pan is heavy and iron, it should hold heat pretty well, for enough time for the press.  it has a large thermal mass and like your pizza stones, once the entire thing is heated to the desired temp for a good period of time, it can hold the temp pretty welll i would imagine for several pressings!!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 22, 2013, 09:20:11 PM
Terry,

I donít want to get this thread too far off topic, but I did try a waffle iron to bake a pizza.   :-D http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11568.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11568.0.html)

That pizza is one reason I don't think your idea is too crazy.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 22, 2013, 09:20:23 PM
now if i try this, using 2 cast iron pans heated i think would simulate their machine better! one turned over the other normal and opress down with it with all your might!  i think their presses are heated top and bottom!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 22, 2013, 09:21:58 PM
Terry,

I donít want to get this thread too far off topic, but I did try a waffle iron to bake a pizza.   :-D http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11568.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11568.0.html)

That pizza is one reason I don't think your idea is too crazy.

Norma

wow!! you are good!!!  not too far off topic at all!  this could be something!  great work Norma!!  man you are creative and an excellent pizza maker!!! thank you!!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 22, 2013, 09:23:41 PM
hee!!  i dont want you to ruin your dough!!!  i need to seek out peter's posts of the temps of those presses and the times!  i do have a cast iron pan!!!! what fun!!  Norma, read the review of your new york pizza here!  saw those pics!  man you are so adept at so many different pizzas your new york looked awesome!!!!!  the reviewer also thought so!  way to go!!!!
I believe it is 800 + degrees Terry...also, it is a "press", probably some hydraulic 10 ton contraption that has timed sequence too just to make it harder for us!  :-D

But I sure like the way you are thinking about this dude...very impressive to say the least!  :chef:
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 22, 2013, 09:24:13 PM
wow!! you are good!!!  not too far off topic at all!  this could be something!  great work Norma!!  man you are creative and an excellent pizza maker!!! thank you!!!

Terry,

I am not really that good, but just like to experiment to see what happens.  I have been known for trying crazy stuff.

Wait and see what Peter has to say.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 22, 2013, 09:34:31 PM
I believe it is 800 + degrees Terry...also, it is a "press", probably some hydraulic 10 ton contraption that has timed sequence too just to make it harder for us!  :-D

But I sure like the way you are thinking about this dude...very impressive to say the least!  :chef:
oh my word!! that is high!!!  only way i could do it would be to put the pans in my wfo for a couple hours, and then i would need to work out 3 times a day with free weights for about 3 years and then try and not succeed!  however i wonder if we can get a proof of concept with a lower temp....slower compression.....400 twice as long on the compression....wow!  i need to remember though its just proof of concept we need only a small piece of dough and a couple layers to show up!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 22, 2013, 10:54:43 PM
What about using two cutter pans (that nest)? 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 22, 2013, 11:08:12 PM
heck yeah!!  will they hold heat long enough?  ok, again i must think! proof of concept..we just need to see layers! doesnt need to be perfect.  ok i  heat the pans! put the skin between! run it out to the driveway and run over it with the car!!  ok ok! im gettin carried away with the compression! but still heat em put the skin (or i guess dough ball) in between then sit on it stand on it! do whatever you can for great compression!  hell!   thats a good idea Garvey!  i like it!  makes a nice rimn too!! Nice!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 22, 2013, 11:14:28 PM
heck yeah!!  will they hold heat long enough?  ok, again i must think! proof of concept..we just need to see layers! doesnt need to be perfect.  ok i  heat the pans! put the skin between! run it out to the driveway and run over it with the car!!  ok ok! im gettin carried away with the compression! but still heat em put the skin (or i guess dough ball) in between then sit on it stand on it! do whatever you can for great compression!  hell!   thats a good idea Garvey!  i like it!  makes a nice rimn too!! Nice!!
Ok that's it Terry...I'm sorry but I feel it my duty to ask you, check that...plead with you to step back away from this idea before you end up hurting yourself...or, even worse, your poor car man!  :o

Pizza Pal,
Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 22, 2013, 11:19:23 PM
alright!!  but when i  back get back to work on monday im gonna use the patent database and do some patent searches!!!!  right on Bob!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 22, 2013, 11:34:55 PM
alright!!  but when i  back get back to work on monday im gonna use the patent database and do some patent searches!!!!  right on Bob!!
Ok buddy....that sounds harmless enough I guess. I do admire your tenacity Terry.  :-\

Bob   ;D
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 22, 2013, 11:47:15 PM
I could see this being messy.  What if you had three cutter pans: cold press the dough with your fingers into the "middle" pan, making sure to get some kind of rim going, and then nest that pan between two blazing hot pans.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 22, 2013, 11:58:01 PM
I could see this being messy.  What if you had three cutter pans: cold press the dough with your fingers into the "middle" pan, making sure to get some kind of rim going, and then nest that pan between two blazing hot pans.
And clamp it all together with 3 pairs of vise grips maybe.... ???
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 23, 2013, 12:13:28 AM
NICE!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 23, 2013, 12:45:20 AM
If the dough is already rolled out/pressed out to size, I don't think you need much extra pressure at all except enough to ensure the transfer the heat from the other pans.  I.e., the heavy pressing is for a cold dough ball.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 23, 2013, 08:00:37 AM
I think it would be instructive if we all went back and reread the pertinent parts of the three articles referenced below, and also reviewed the YouTube video as also presented below:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080121222757/http://www.pmq.com/mag/200705/article.php?story=lehmann (http://web.archive.org/web/20080121222757/http://www.pmq.com/mag/200705/article.php?story=lehmann)

http://web.archive.org/web/20100626072731/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2002summer/doughformer.shtml (http://web.archive.org/web/20100626072731/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2002summer/doughformer.shtml)

http://web.archive.org/web/20090607015955/http://www.pmq.com/mag/200805/topform.php (http://web.archive.org/web/20090607015955/http://www.pmq.com/mag/200805/topform.php) (Note: See edit on next post)
California Pizza Kitchen Pizza Dough (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4CxXSoiDkY#)

I believe that the above articles and video make it clear that a primary purpose of a dough press is to increase the production rate of skins, just as the sheeters that HRI used in the 1940s made it easier and faster to form the skins than doing it by hand. According to HRI, when it went to dough presses, in 1990, it tripled its throughput. Of course, with a hot dough press, you get some additional things beyond just forming the skins, like highly compressing the skins and getting application of heat. However, as the Colombo article referenced above mentions, the skins are not cooked or baked. The hot press raises the gluten gel to the surface and, as Tom Lehmann frequently says, an "exoskeleton" is formed that creates a top surface that is semi-fixed and holds the steam center as the crust bakes. At the option of the user, the skins can be proofed if desired, as is done in HRI's pizzerias (for about 15-20 minutes), or dressed and baked (or par-baked in HRI's case) right after coming out of the hot press, as is done at HRI's frozen pizza plants.

In HRI's case, I believe that the dough formulation and related dough making and baking methods may be more critical to the success of the HRI pizzas than the hot dough press, or otherwise every skin produced by a hot press would yield a crust that is flaky, which we know not to be true. So, my focus would be to first get the dough formulation, and also the form, fit and function, correct before thinking about home solutions to the hot dough press. If it later turns out that the dough press is the reason for the flakiness, then members can resort to whatever solutions they can devise in a home setting.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 23, 2013, 10:20:51 AM
For some reason, the link to the Sarah Colombo article that I referenced in the last post does not always work. I tried to insert the link into my post as suggested by Steve (I tried a couple of ways), and had success doing so, but later it did not open up to the correct article. So I believe that the problem is at the Wayback Machine rather than on the forum. Consequently, I have decided to excerpt the part of the article that relates to dough presses. Here it is:

Hot presses work by using a manual or motor-operated heated platen to press a dough ball into a die cavity. They can create different shapes, including traditional round and rectangle crusts. Hot presses are ideal for forming oven-rising pizzas with a raised edge. Some of these presses even offer optional mold inserts that recreate the shape of hand-formed pizzas. Hot presses also have thickness adjustments so you can predetermine the exact diameter of the skin. Dan Rio, president of Dough XPress, a division of Hix Corporation in Pittsburg, Kansas, says that makes hot presses ideal for pizzerias that use conveyor ovens. "With a certain thickness setting, a 16-ounce dough ball will come out to be 14" every time," he says.

Hot presses usually require the aid of relaxing ingredients, such as oil, to help the dough stretch and to reduce shrinkage while it bakes. And because the heated platen activates the dough yeast to some degree, the dough needs to be baked immediately after it's pressed. However, most manufacturers agree that this heat exposure doesn't critically affect the structure of the dough. "People are under the assumption that the heated platen cooks the dough, but it doesn't," explains Dale LaRose, sales manager of Cuppone America, a division of Global Industries in Manteca, California. "When you press dough, it brings the gluten gel to the surface, seals that formed pizza base, and holds the steam center inside when it bakes." Like sheeters, hot presses come in different sizes to accommodate various production levels at pizzerias. Although most presses can't accommodate the volume typically produced by sheeters, they're generally less labor-intensive to operate. "There is very little employee training involved with a press, because all they need to know how to do is press a button," says Larry Serafin, marketing manager for the Dolton, Illinois-based AM Manufacturing Company.

Cold presses, which are popular in high-production markets, perform a similar function to hot presses, except they don't rely on heat activation. Instead, they form using a high water-absorption process and dough set to a high temperature (generally around 100įF). Cold presses require that the dough is very soft to form, which can make it difficult to create a welldefined, raised-edge crust. However, they also afford a unique opportunity by allowing you to finish forming the dough by hand. Like hot presses, cold presses rely on oil or similar activating ingredients. Cold presses are also ideal for making focaccia bread, and can produce unique, fried-bottom crust pizzas.


Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 23, 2013, 07:41:26 PM
This was my next attempt at an HRI pizza tonight.  I used the skin that I had fermented for two days.  It kind of surprised me that the skin didnít rise much at all in the two days it was in the refrigerator.  I weighed the skin before I place it on the wooden peel and it weighed 14.7 ounces.  I had thought it weighed 15 oz. before I placed it in the fridge.

I had a loading error, I guess because I didnít flour my wooden peel enough.  I only dusted my wooden peel lightly with flour.  A little of the cheese and one pepperoni slice fell off when I went to slide the pizza off of the wooden peel.  I did retrieve the pepperoni slice with my tongs from the bottom of my oven and put it back onto the pizza.  Where the cheese melted it left a mess on my pizza stone. 

The pizza was baked at 490 degrees for about 14 minutes.  I did have to turn the hot pizza stone while it was in the oven to get the struck cheese unstuck before I could rotate the pizza.  I thought there might be more layers when the bubbles began to appear at the beginning of the bake.  The pizza weighed 725 grams after the bake.  I used 10 oz. of the Foremost Farms LMPS, 4.5 ounces of Full Red, and 14 slices of Ciao pepperoni.  The pepperoni weighed 1.2 oz.  I also sprinkled a little oregano on the pizza before the bake. 

I thought the HRI attempt was very tasty and it did have good bottom crust browning and also some rim crust browning.  I thought the rim crust had a little bit of chew and also was crunchy, but the crunchiness was very easy to bite.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 23, 2013, 07:44:50 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 23, 2013, 07:47:55 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 24, 2013, 09:48:44 AM
Norma,

You previously indicated that you were using 17% corn oil and that you had reduced the amount of yeast. Can you tell us how much yeast you used and also the hydration value? Since I have been estimating that HRI is using more than 2% dry yeast for the dough for its frozen pizzas, based on analysis of the Nutrition Facts for its basic pizzas, like their cheese and pepperoni pizzas, I wondered how the dough would hold up in the refrigerator at the high yeast levels. I suspect that the skin that you made, even when folded in quarters, had a profile and shape that allowed it to cool down faster than if it had been in the shape of a rounded ball. I now tend to think that you could use the higher quantity of yeast and not have the folded skin change volume in any material way while in the refrigerator. Out of curiosity, did you weigh the skin after it had been formed to see if it was 15 ounces? I know from experience that that is something that can be hard to achieve when, at the same time, you are trying to get a uniformly round skin of the desired diameter.

By and large, I think your weights of the dough ball, cheese, sauce and pepperoni were in line for an HRI clone, even with the slightly underweight dough skin, but from the before and after weights you gave for your pizza, it looks like the weight loss of the pizza as a result of baking was around 16%. That is considerably higher than I saw with the defrosted HRI frozen pizzas I tested, but it might well be that the weight losses are higher when using a freshly made pizza and baking directly on the stone surface of a deck oven. Also, you may have loss some weight during the loading mishap.

I scoured your post looking for the word "flaky" or "flakiness" but did not find either word. Since that has been the subject of much discussion, can we conclude that the crust did not have a flaky character?

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 24, 2013, 10:05:07 AM
Norma,

I forgot to mention it in my last post, but if you decide that you would like to try a dough press, I think I found one that might do a good job of imparting a gread deal of pressure per square inch of your dough skin:

http://katedeering.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/sumo-wrestler1.jpg (http://katedeering.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/sumo-wrestler1.jpg)


Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 24, 2013, 10:56:48 AM
Norma,

You previously indicated that you were using 17% corn oil and that you had reduced the amount of yeast. Can you tell us how much yeast you used and also the hydration value? Since I have been estimating that HRI is using more than 2% dry yeast for the dough for its frozen pizzas, based on analysis of the Nutrition Facts for its basic pizzas, like their cheese and pepperoni pizzas, I wondered how the dough would hold up in the refrigerator at the high yeast levels. I suspect that the skin that you made, even when folded in quarters, had a profile and shape that allowed it to cool down faster than if it had been in the shape of a rounded ball. I now tend to think that you could use the higher quantity of yeast and not have the folded skin change volume in any material way while in the refrigerator. Out of curiosity, did you weigh the skin after it had been formed to see if it was 15 ounces? I know from experience that that is something that can be hard to achieve when, at the same time, you are trying to get a uniformly round skin of the desired diameter.

By and large, I think your weights of the dough ball, cheese, sauce and pepperoni were in line for an HRI clone, even with the slightly underweight dough skin, but from the before and after weights you gave for your pizza, it looks like the weight loss of the pizza as a result of baking was around 16%. That is considerably higher than I saw with the defrosted HRI frozen pizzas I tested, but it might well be that the weight losses are higher when using a freshly made pizza and baking directly on the stone surface of a deck oven. Also, you may have loss some weight during the loading mishap.

I scoured your post looking for the word "flaky" or "flakiness" but did not find either word. Since that has been the subject of much discussion, can we conclude that the crust did not have a flaky character?

Peter

Peter,

This is the print out from the expanded dough calculation tool of the formulation I used.  If you recall I did use part of that dough so my great-granddaughter would have some dough to roll.

I think the skin held up good using a IDY amount of 2.0% for a two day cold ferment.  I guess it might be all the corn oil in the dough that keeps it from fermenting more, but really donít know.  I did weigh the dough after I took off what was leftover for my great-granddaugther and that weighed 15 oz., but no I didnít weigh the skin after it was rolled.   

Since you did the calculation I think 16% bake loss weight was a lot too.  I donít know either how a fresh pizza baked on the stone relates to bake loss weights in an HRI clone attempt.  When I rolled out the skin it felt like a normal dough ball and I think I could have stretched it like a normal dough ball into a skin, but since I didnít do that I donít know if that would have been possible.  I know there would be some more bake weight losses from the cheese landing on the stone in the back area of my stone.

The crust did have a flaky character in the rim and bottom crust and I thought that tasted very good.  I tasted two slices after the pizza was cold and the flakiness was still there in the bottom crust and rim.  I am sure not an expert on what a real HRI pizza is like in the flaky crust though, because I never had a real HRI pizza.  I can say though that the pizza made yesterday was more flaky in the crust and rim than the one HRI frozen pizza I baked.  What has me puzzled is the layer thing in the bottom crust.  I sure donít know what bake temperature HRI used years ago, but maybe if I would have used a higher bake temperature, maybe there could have been some layers.

These are also the two pictures of when I ate the slices cold. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 24, 2013, 11:04:08 AM
Norma,

I forgot to mention it in my last post, but if you decide that you would like to try a dough press, I think I found one that might do a good job of imparting a gread deal of pressure per square inch of your dough skin:  :-D

http://katedeering.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/sumo-wrestler1.jpg (http://katedeering.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/sumo-wrestler1.jpg)


Peter

Peter,

Lol, yep I agree that guy sure would be able to do a good job of imparting a great deal of pressure per square inch on my dough skins.

This is what I wished I would have kept though.  That heated dough press in the background at my pizza stand.   ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 24, 2013, 12:45:40 PM
I think the skin held up good using a IDY amount of 2.0% for a two day cold ferment.  I guess it might be all the corn oil in the dough that keeps it from fermenting more, but really donít know.  I did weigh the dough after I took off what was leftover for my great-granddaugther and that weighed 15 oz., but no I didnít weigh the skin after it was rolled.   
Norma,

You indicated 2% IDY in the above quoted material but the formulation that you posted from the expanded dough calculating tool shows 1.75%. Also, I note that you dropped the hydration quite a bit. That perhaps slowed the fermentation down also, much as happens with cracker style doughs with low hydration values. I also think that the high oil quantity slowed down the fermentation process, and most likely that would also happen with higher hydration values. The dough should also be firmer to the touch than a dough with much less oil (and even with a higher hydration than you used).

Your dough preparations and management aside, it is quite possible that your most recent dough formulation falls outside the ambit of the HRI dough formulation if the HRI Nutrition Facts for their frozen pizzas is a good measure of their formulation. It is hard to say for sure since, as previously noted, I believe that there is an error in the HRI Nutrition Facts, and the suspect item is involved in some of the calculations required by the FDA.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 24, 2013, 01:28:24 PM
Norma,

You indicated 2% IDY in the above quoted material but the formulation that you posted from the expanded dough calculating tool shows 1.75%. Also, I note that you dropped the hydration quite a bit. That perhaps slowed the fermentation down also, much as happens with cracker style doughs with low hydration values. I also think that the high oil quantity slowed down the fermentation process, and most likely that would also happen with higher hydration values. The dough should also be firmer to the touch than a dough with much less oil (and even with a higher hydration than you used).

Your dough preparations and management aside, it is quite possible that your most recent dough formulation falls outside the ambit of the HRI dough formulation if the HRI Nutrition Facts for their frozen pizzas is a good measure of their formulation. It is hard to say for sure since, as previously noted, I believe that there is an error in the HRI Nutrition Facts, and the suspect item is involved in some of the calculations required by the FDA.

Peter

Peter,

It was my mistake that I quoted 2% IDY, until I looked at the picture I took of the dough formulation I used.  I did drop the hydration quite a bit.  Thanks for telling me the hydration perhaps slowed the fermentation some too. 

I also thought my most recent dough formulation falls outside the limits of an HRI dough formulation, but since I donít understand the HRI Nutrition Facts for their frozen pizzas I didnĎt know what to try next.  I hope you eventually find out what the error is in the HRI Nutrition Facts. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on March 24, 2013, 03:21:57 PM
Norma,

I forgot to mention it in my last post, but if you decide that you would like to try a dough press, I think I found one that might do a good job of imparting a gread deal of pressure per square inch of your dough skin:

http://katedeering.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/sumo-wrestler1.jpg (http://katedeering.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/sumo-wrestler1.jpg)


Peter

why didn't I think of that!!  thanks for all the info on the dough press and hri info Peter! always appreciated!

norma your latest attempt does indeed again look delicious!  i cant help but go back to that little crust you tested a few days ago, that did seem to have layers!  what was it about that test???  thanks for all that you do!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 24, 2013, 06:08:29 PM

i cant help but go back to that little crust you tested a few days ago, that did seem to have layers!  what was it about that test???  thanks for all that you do!!


Terry,

I have no idea what is was about that little crust I made at Reply 372 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg243063.html#msg243063 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg243063.html#msg243063) that made it appear to look like it had layers.  I am sure my formulation was way off of a clone HRI crust at that time.  I wasnít using the same formulation as I used in the last attempt. I also think my mixing method was way off in making that dough too.  That is the little pre-baked crust you are talking about isnít it?

I am still trying to figure out what formulation to give a try the next time and if I should just pre-bake the crust.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 24, 2013, 08:11:10 PM
Going to give this one a try tonight. Did a 30 min. autolyse with it.

Flour (100%):
Water (45%):
IDY (4%):
Salt (2%):
Corn Oil (24%):
Total (175%):
165.4 g  |  5.83 oz | 0.36 lbs
74.43 g  |  2.63 oz | 0.16 lbs
6.62 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.2 tsp | 0.73 tbsp
3.31 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
39.7 g | 1.4 oz | 0.09 lbs | 8.82 tsp | 2.94 tbsp
289.46 g | 10.21 oz | 0.64 lbs | TF = 0.13

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 24, 2013, 09:38:43 PM
Bob--did you do the book fold (or whatever that's called)?
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 24, 2013, 09:46:01 PM
fwiw, when I first heard Peter talking of a dough press used in the manufacturing of HRI pizza crusts....my roots from growing up around Chicago manufacturing plants conjured up visions of some super duty behemoth belching out steam and sparks.  :-\   I now know what one of those 'lil countertop presses are about thanks to the recent links from Peter(and Norma's pic too ;)). Bob feels better now.  :) We don't need no stinking presses!  8)

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 24, 2013, 09:47:20 PM
Bob--did you do the book fold (or whatever that's called)?
I am going to.  ;)

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 24, 2013, 09:54:49 PM
Hey ya'll.....I'm sure it's all been done, but....tonight I tried mixing Classico Heavy Puree, 50/50, with Classico Crushed. Straight mix...no water...this is good stuff and it is wanting me to say it may be a go to for HRI sauce.

I doctored it with about half of Garvey's spice blend but even before doing that I liked it....I liked it real good.  :chef: So I'm looking forward to see how she tastes cooked up on tonight's pizza.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on March 25, 2013, 11:45:05 AM
I think I worked up an HRI sauce somewhere.  It was only oregano, pepper, and salt added, IIRC.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 25, 2013, 01:15:33 PM
I did dried basil,oregano,pepper and ground garlic&onion powder.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: tombiasi on March 25, 2013, 05:28:41 PM
Flour (100%):
Water (45%):
IDY (4%):
Salt (2%):
Corn Oil (24%):
Total (175%):
165.4 g  |  5.83 oz | 0.36 lbs
74.43 g  |  2.63 oz | 0.16 lbs
6.62 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.2 tsp | 0.73 tbsp
3.31 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
39.7 g | 1.4 oz | 0.09 lbs | 8.82 tsp | 2.94 tbsp
289.46 g | 10.21 oz | 0.64 lbs | TF = 0.13
What do you make with that recipe Bob?
Title: Re: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 25, 2013, 05:46:35 PM
What do you make with that recipe Bob?
Believe it or not Tom, the best American style pizza I've ever had.  :-D
It was last night's "pushing the envelope" trial over on the HRI thread. Even though it was a same day dough the 4% idy was too much for even the 24% oil to handle. Pushed the "pie crust" type dough we are playing with into a more lighter an softer sort of very tasty Papa John-ish pizza. Bob was startled!  :o
Title: Re: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: tombiasi on March 25, 2013, 11:04:26 PM
Believe it or not Tom, the best American style pizza I've ever had.  :-D
It was last night's "pushing the envelope" trial over on the HRI thread. Even though it was a same day dough the 4% idy was too much for even the 24% oil to handle. Pushed the "pie crust" type dough we are playing with into a more lighter an softer sort of very tasty Papa John-ish pizza. Bob was startled!  :o
OK, Unless my math is way off that's a 10 inch pie?
I have never cooked a pizza with that much oil.
You make me want to try it.
Title: Re: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 25, 2013, 11:22:29 PM
OK, Unless my math is way off that's a 10 inch pie?
I have never cooked a pizza with that much oil.
You make me want to try it.
Oh, sorry...yes it was for a 10in. But to be honest, after doing a "book fold" roll out on it twice I ended up oversized even after crimping the edges ala HRI. If you try this Tom, seriously, don't worry about the book folds(I've learned this is too oily for that technique to be effective here) and just roll it out for a 12 in. pizza. I hope you try it, I was surprised at the crust flavor for only being a few hr. old dough.  ;)

Bob                                         
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 26, 2013, 10:05:28 AM
Bob and Tom,

I have studied the HRI Nutrition Facts for its 12" frozen cheese, pepperoni and sausage pizzas in great detail, with about thirty pages of notes and calculations to date, and I have tested some of their frozen pepperoni and sausage pizzas, and if we assume that the HRI Nutrition Facts are correct, and also that HRI is using a basic low moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese (with 6 grams of Total Fat and 3.5 grams of Sat Fat per ounce of cheese), I do not see anything to support using 24% corn oil. However, there is no way to know for sure, for two reasons. First, Nutrition Facts often contain errors, about one-quarter of the time based on studies. Second, under FDA rules and guidelines, the Nutrition Facts are allowed to be off by up to 20% on either side for certain nutrients. So, if a company decides to boost the numbers for the "good" guys, like protein and dietary fiber, and to drop the numbers for the "bad" guys, like calories, fat, sodium and cholesterol, they are likely to get away with that so long as they stay within the 20% range. Even if they go outside of that range, they are likely to go undetected since the FDA does not audit Nutrition Facts and will usually only intervene if there are wild and unsubstantiated health claims or there is a major health issue. Since the FDA has limited enforcement resources, the policy is, in effect, one of self policing.

The above said, I would try using around 19% corn oil, and I would boost the formula hydration by the difference between 24% corn oil and 19% corn oil. On the assumption that HRI is using a 15-ounce dough ball, for a 12" pizza, which I think has support based on the weight measurements I took from the HRI frozen pizzas that I defrosted and dissected, I would slightly increase the thickness factor to 0.13263 [15/(3.14159 x 6 x 6) = 0.13263]. That would be the thickness factor value to use for any size pizza, including Bob's 10" size pizza. However, for sizes other than 12", the amounts of cheese, sauce and any toppings will have to be adjusted proportionately depending on the type of pizza made. For example, for a 12" cheese or pepperoni pizza, I would assume 10 ounces of mozzarella cheese and slightly less than one ounce of sliced pepperoni (but there has to be exactly 14 slices and arranged on the pizza in a 3-4-4-3 pattern). I would use less cheese for a sausage pizza because it appears from my tests that HRI uses less cheese for its sausage pizzas than for its cheese and pepperoni pizzas, and a healthy amount of sausage to compensate for the lower cheese usage. All of this seems to be consistent with the weights of their pizzas as reported on their pizza boxes and when the actual pizzas are weighed on a scale. For example, the stated weight of an HRI cheese pizza is 27.1 ounces (768 grams); 27.94 ounces (792 grams) for a pepperoni pizza; and 30.05 ounces (852 grams) for a sausage pizza. In practice, the actual pizza weights are likely to be slightly more than what is stated on the boxes because HRI does not want to be charged with selling underweight products. But the differences in weights will be small.

If I am correct on the type of low moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese that I believe HRI is using, based soley on the Nutrition Facts, there are many retail level brands, both national and house brands, that should work. The protein and sodium levels may vary from brand to brand but they are unlikely to vary enough to be an issue. I have been using the Precious brand for my tests, simply because I wanted to use a national brand that might be of higher quality than a house brand, or lesser brand, but I am confident that just about any brand should work if the fat numbers are correct as noted above. As for the pepperoni, HRI uses a natural product that is not usually available at the retail level. I liked the taste of the HRI pepperoni and would have preferred to use a comparable product but I ended up using a fairly generic retail brand, Armour, for my experiments.

With respect to the amount of yeast (IDY) to use, I would say that it should be more than 2% for a dough that is intended to simulate a dough that HRI would use to make a frozen pizza. For an emergency dough that is carefully monitored to be sure that it doesn't rise and ferment too fast, say, more than a doubling, I think a value of 2.5%, and maybe even less (but still above 2%) depending on the ambient room temperature, should work. The same value should also work for a dough that is to be cold fermented for a day or two, or maybe even three days, as is apparently the case with the dough balls HRI uses in its pizzerias. However, I would perhaps use less than 2.5% IDY for a three-day cold fermentation application to keep the dough from fermenting too much and adversely affecting the crumb structure. From what I have been able to tell, the large amount of corn oil does seem to impede fermentation even for a cold fermented dough. So, one is unlikely to see a runaway dough that is billowy and gassy. It is more likely to be firm to the touch. even though it may be double or even close to a tripling in volume.

For the flour, I would use an unbleached all-purpose flour with a modest protein level of around 11%. A good choice would be the retail level Gold Medal unbleached all-purpose flour, which is avaiable just about everywhere. The King Arthur all-purpose flour should also work but its protein content is around 11.7%, which would be on the high side.

As for the sauce, it appears that the amounts of sauce that HRI uses for its pizzas can vary from one pizza to another so I don't yet have a good fix on the amount to use although around 4 ounces by weight (or a bit over 2 fluid ounces for a 12" pizza) seems to be a good starting point without throwing the Nutrition Facts numbers off. However, as for the sauce itself, to be a clone of the sauce HRI uses on its frozen pizzas, it should comprise only a thick tomato puree, water, oregano, salt (which may already be in the puree), and black pepper. For the HRI frozen pizzas I examined, and ate, I did not detect either the flavor or appearance of the oregano or black pepper. Most likely they are ground very fine, perhaps to keep their sauce dispensing equipment from getting clogged and malfunctioning. In the absence of a puree, other alternatives can be used, such as a puree that is not a thick puree. In that case, the water can be omitted. There is a fair amount of evidence pointing to Stanislaus as the source of the heavy puree used by HRI. If that is correct, then a good fresh-pack tomato product should be usable. One possibility at the retail level is the Classico heavy puree as is often sold at Wal-Mart but, unfortunately, not at my local Wal-Mart. The Classico product can be seen at http://tomatoes.classico.com/products/ (http://tomatoes.classico.com/products/). Other Escalon fresh-pack tomatoes are also likely to be good options, such as the Bonta and Bella Rosa heavy puree products at the professional level.

As one might expect, some experimentation may be required. This applies to the methods used to make the dough, to manage it, to form into a docked skin with fluted edges, to pre-bake the skin, and dress and finish baking it--using a carrier like a dark anodized perforated disk or directly on a stone surface. However, if the objective is to simulate an HRI pizza, the formulation and the form, fit and function have to be right in my opinion, and just tossing ingredients around without regard to these factors is likely to result in a pizza that does not resemble an HRI pizza, even though it might be a very good pizza and possiby even better than an HRI pizza. My goal has been to make a credible clone, not a better pizza. What I have done above is to establish a framework and roadmap for optimizing the effort to achieve a credible clone within the base of knowledge that we have accumulated on the HRI pizzas to date, and using ingredients that are available just about everywhere (except for the natural pepperoni).

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: tombiasi on March 26, 2013, 11:05:20 AM
Thank you Peter for sharing the results of your efforts. I actually have no desire to duplicate a Home Run pizza since I never have tasted one. I was just intrigued by Bob's use of what I consider a large amount of oil for that type of pie. I really like to experiment though and I may just try this.
Thanks again.
Tom
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 29, 2013, 11:27:07 AM
Peter,
As you requested I am posting this here on the original HRI thread.
I'd like to go ahead and try a 2-? day cold ferment dough(s) according to wherever you feel we are at here formula wise. I can do a couple 12 in pizza's and I'm not particular about which toppings to use...whichever you prefer to get more data from is fine.

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on March 29, 2013, 11:50:36 AM
Even though I've only had the frozen HRI pie, I'm interested in this, too. I just got a 12 inch cutter pan from Lloyd's and I'm looking to break a bottle of champagne across its bow.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 29, 2013, 06:10:32 PM
Bob,

I would try the following dough formulation for a 12Ē HRI clone (or any other desired size):

100%, All-purpose flour
50%, Water
2.5% IDY
2%, Salt
19%, Corn oil
Nominal thickness factor = 0.132529
Bowl residue compensation = 1.5% (for doughs prepared in a food processor or stand mixer; for hand kneading, use 3%)

The above formulation is intentionally generic in nature so as to allow one to make any desired size of pizza and in any desired number. Additional details for the dough and cheese and toppings, including possible brands and sources, can be found at Reply 562 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245142.html#msg245142 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245142.html#msg245142).

Whether one decides to use a food processor or stand mixer to make the dough, I would use the same sequencing of ingredients, as follows: Flour, water (pulsed or kneaded until the water is absorbed), corn oil (pulsed or kneaded until absorbed), IDY, and salt (followed by kneading until a smooth, slightly tacky dough ball is formed). If a food processor is used, one should use water that is cooler than would be used with a stand mixer because the food processor has a considerably higher friction factor than a stand mixer. For a room temperature of about 65-70 degrees F, I suggest a water temperature of about 58-60 degrees F. For a home stand mixer, I suggest a water temperature of about 65 degrees F. Ideally, we want to end up with a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F. However, being off by a few degrees on either side should not be fatal.

When the dough has been made, it desirably should be cohesive, smooth, and a bit tacky, but not wet. If it more than tacky, a bit more flour can be added to mitigate the wetness. If the ingredients are properly measured out, it is unlikely that the dough will need more water or oil because the dough appears to be too dry.

For a 12Ē pizza, the final dough ball weight should be 15 ounces, or about 425 grams. It is not entirely clear whether HRI delivers dough in bulk to its pizzerias or as individual dough balls, but if multiple pizzas are to be made, I suggest dividing the bulk dough into individual pieces, scaling them to 15 ounces, and rounding them. They should then be coated with a thin film of corn oil, and placed in individual storage containers. Preferably, the storage containers are round transparent or translucent plastic containers, or of glass, and at least 3-4" in height and about 6" in diameter, and with lids. The containers should promptly go into the refrigerator without any proofing of the dough at room temperature. I suggest noting the finished dough temperature, the temperature of the refrigerator compartment where the dough balls are to be stored, and the time when the dough balls are placed into the refrigerator. This information might be needed or useful at a later time if adjustments have to be made.

Because of the high yeast content, one can expect the dough to rise even in the refrigerator as it is being cooled. But the dough balls wonít be blowing off the lids or becoming like balloons. The dough will be well behaved and well mannered. In terms of the expansion that might be expected, the dough balls might increase in volume modestly within several hours (I use poppy seeds to monitor this activity) and then stabilize. After about a day of cold fermentation, the dough ball might have about doubled in volume, but it could be more or less depending on the temperatures involved and their stability during the period of fermentation. For example, if the refrigerator temperature is at or above, say, 45 degrees F, the dough might double much sooner. The timing may be also delayed if there were several dough balls being cooled at the same time. It should also be pointed out that the late addition of the IDY in the dough making process, as HRI does in its frozen pizza operations, can materially delay the fermentation process. But, throughout the fermentation process, the dough balls should be firm to the touch and remain so for pretty much the entire cold fermentation period but softening slightly toward the end of fermentation. I would perhaps shoot for two days of cold fermentation, to prevent the dough from fermenting too much, but one might try for three days to see if that is an improvement or not. It is also quite likely that one will see white spots all over the dough balls shortly after being refrigerated and as the fermentation proceeds but these spots can diminish with time. This is quite normal.

Once the time arrives to use a dough ball to form a skin to make a pizza, the dough ball should be brought out to room temperature for about 1-2 hours (depending on the prevailing room temperature). The dough ball can be left in its container or it can be removed from its container and covered with a sheet of plastic film to keep the outer surface from drying out. After the rest period, the dough ball can be flattened and dusted with bench flour in preparation for forming the skin.

Forming the skin is quite easy. It can be done completely by hand but to get a uniform thickness and to simulate the pressing action of a dough press, I suggest using a rolling pin. For a 12Ē pizza, I would roll the skin out to about 12 Ĺ inches. In a home setting, this might be done on a dusted wooden peel. At this point, I suggest that the skin be docked right on the wooden peel, so that the pins of the docker do not push the dough into the perforations of the carrier, although it is also possible to do the docking once the skin has been placed on its carrier if one does so lightly. However, the carrier cannot be a pizza screen. For that, the skin should be docked before placing on the screen. According to HRI, the docking ďprevents steam from causing the dough to blow up during baking.Ē

Once the skin has been rolled out to 12 Ĺ inches and placed on its carrier, an upstanding fluted rim can be formed at the outer edges of the skin. The fluting step should be very easy to do. Also, because the dough will have plastic qualities, the rim can also be reformed, if necessary, at any time before the skin is pre-baked as discussed below. According to HRI, the fluted rim should be about 3/8-inch high (although I prefer around 1/2 inch or even a bit taller). The diameter of a 12" skin after fluting should be a bit more than 11 1/2 inches. That is the diameter that I noted from the frozen HRI pizzas that I baked.

For a carrier for the HRI skin, I suggest a dark anodized perforated disk since that is what HRI uses in its conveyors in its pizzerias. The disk size isnít particularly material although I suspect that using a disk of the same size as the end pizza is the best thermodynamic match for HRI's conveyors and bake temperatures and times. In lieu of a disk, it is also possible to use a dark anodized perforated cutter pan. HRI says that the perforations "allow moisture and heat to penetrate the crust".

In its pizzerias, HRI subjects the skins to some heat, through the action of the hot dough press. That heat forms an exoskeleton but it does not cook or bake the skins. In fact, the skins can proof after coming out of the hot dough press. HRI uses a 15-20 minute proof in its pizzerias. The skins can then be dressed and baked on their carriers. In a home setting, absent a dough press, I suggest that the skin be placed on a middle oven rack position and pre-baked, much as is done with the frozen HRI pizzas. I would pre-bake the docked skin on its carrier at about 400 degrees F until the skin sets and becomes very lightly browned. This time might be several minutes but that time can vary depending on the type of oven and its performance characteristics. For example, in my experiments, I used a dough that had warmed up at room temperature before forming the skin and a pre-bake time of about three minutes at a temperature of around 490 degrees F. That was for a basic pepperoni pizza baked in my standard home electric oven, using the middle oven rack position. For a pepperoni and sausage pizza, or for a pizza with a lot of toppings in general, I would suggest a somewhat longer pre-bake time to minimize the occurrence of a gum line. Using a pre-bake temperature of 400 degrees F as suggested above will extend the pre-bake time by maybe another minute or two. That is an estimate because I have not yet tried a 400 degrees F pre-bake temperature.

Once the skin has been pre-baked, it can be dressed for the final bake.

As for the types of HRI pizzas, here are my recommendations for ingredients and toppings, including quantities.

For a 12Ē cheese pizza:

Mozzarella cheese: 10 ounces, diced (preferably a low moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese with 6 grams of Total Fat and 3.5 grams of Sat Fat per ounce)
Pizza sauce: 4 ounces, by weight (more sauce can be used if desired and can be embellished with herbs and spices as desired)

For a 12Ē pepperoni pizza:

The quantities are the same as for a 12Ē cheese pizza but with 14 slices of pepperoni added to the pizza in a 3-4-4-3 pattern. Typically, 14 slices of pepperoni weigh just under an ounce although that will vary a bit from one brand to another. (Note: The 14 pepperoni slices is what is used for HRI's 12" frozen pepperoni pizzas. I do not know how many slices HRI uses in its pizzerias for its 12" freshly baked pepperoni pizzas.)

For a 12Ē sausage pizza:

Mozzarella cheese: 7 ounces, diced (the same type as mentioned above)
Fresh raw sausage: 7 ounces
Pizza sauce: 4 ounces, by weight (with the same qualifications noted above)

For a 12Ē sausage and pepperoni pizza:

The quantities are the same as for a 12Ē sausage pizza but with 14 slices of pepperoni, applied as noted above.

For some other toppings possibilities, see the HRI menu at its Chicago location: http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/website/documents/menus/HRI%20TakeOutMenu_2012_CHIlowres.pdf (http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/website/documents/menus/HRI%20TakeOutMenu_2012_CHIlowres.pdf). Other toppings possibilities as are used by HRI for its frozen Classic pizzas can be seen at http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/frozen-pizza (http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/frozen-pizza) but attention has to be paid to the total weights of the pizzas. Also, for its frozen Margherita and Sausage/Margherita pizzas, I believe that HRI may be using one of the tomato strip products from Stanislaus, with finely minced fresh basil leaves mixed in. In its pizzerias, there is a Tomato Basil specialty pizza with fresh basil and plum tomatoes but it is not called a Margherita pizza.

After a given pizza has been dressed as desired, the final bake can proceed. I suggest using a bake temperature of around 450 degrees F. According to what Norma was told by HRI, this is the bake temperature that HRI uses in its conveyor ovens in its pizzerias (although an article I read said 425 degrees F). The bake time is believed to be about 12-14 minutes. In a standard home oven, the bake temperature and time might need adjustment. I suggest using the finished crust color and the condition and color of the cheese to determine when to pull the pizza from the oven. I would be looking for a tan crust color such as I have seen in photos of HRI pizzas. Since a typical home oven does not bake like a conveyor oven, it may be necessary to raise the pizza in the oven toward the end of the bake to a higher oven rack position to get adequate top heat.

Although cited before, for a helpful video that shows the HRI pizzeria operations, see Home Run Inn Pizza (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsQCgtla79E#).

See, also, 3:04+ in the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2KrnK-TORnE#at=185 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2KrnK-TORnE#at=185).

At this point, I do not wish to burden anyone by asking them for all kinds of weights and other measurements as they attempt to make an HRI clone. My printouts are almost always covered with notes on both sides of the page. I do this to help me remember everything I did, and especially if I got such good results that I want to repeat the exercise to see if I get the same results again. I also use the data to perform all kinds of calculations that help me to zero in on final solutions. For me, the data is mandatory.

Peter

EDIT (4/2/13): For an update to this post, see Reply 578 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg246267.html#msg246267 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg246267.html#msg246267).
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 30, 2013, 08:18:20 AM
Peter,

I was looking through this thread again and trying to recall what I tried with my HRI dough and pizza attempts.  I know I didnít try your recent formulation and methods you posted for Bob, but when watching the video you referenced at Reply 223 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg241313.html#msg241313 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg241313.html#msg241313) at about between 0:31-0:37 seconds into that video it looks to me that my skins werenít as thick as when that man had the skins on the dark anodized disk and was forming the fluted skin and a few seconds later right before the toppings are applied.  I think the second man fluting the rim was a different man, but donít know.  Also at about 1.03-1:05 minutes into the same video the skins look thicker than my attempts.  Other then changing the formulations that I have been trying to what you just posted, is there any other reason that the skins look thicker than I have been trying?  Do you think I rolled out wrong?  I do think I fluted my rims too high and also didnĎt flute correctly.

I guess the most critical factors are getting the right TF, fluting the edges correctly, executing the methods right, applying the toppings in the right numbers and baking right.  Of course, then there is also mixing the formulation correctly.  Reading your post it sounds fairly easy, but know it wonít be if I decide to give an HRI dough and pizza another attempt.

Thanks for posting a formulation and everything else you posted.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 30, 2013, 10:47:51 AM
I was looking through this thread again and trying to recall what I tried with my HRI dough and pizza attempts.  I know I didnít try your recent formulation and methods you posted for Bob, but when watching the video you referenced at Reply 223 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg241313.html#msg241313 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg241313.html#msg241313) at about between 0:31-0:37 seconds into that video it looks to me that my skins werenít as thick as when that man had the skins on the dark anodized disk and was forming the fluted skin and a few seconds later right before the toppings are applied.  I think the second man fluting the rim was a different man, but donít know.  Also at about 1.03-1:05 minutes into the same video the skins look thicker than my attempts.  Other then changing the formulations that I have been trying to what you just posted, is there any other reason that the skins look thicker than I have been trying?  Do you think I rolled out wrong?  I do think I fluted my rims too high and also didnĎt flute correctly.

I guess the most critical factors are getting the right TF, fluting the edges correctly, executing the methods right, applying the toppings in the right numbers and baking right.  Of course, then there is also mixing the formulation correctly.  Reading your post it sounds fairly easy, but know it wonít be if I decide to give an HRI dough and pizza another attempt.

Thanks for posting a formulation and everything else you posted.
Norma,

You raise a very good point about the thickness of the HRI skins. According to the article that is reproduced in Reply 188 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190395.html#msg190395 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190395.html#msg190395), an HRI pizza skin should have a thickness of about 1/4-inch and a flute height of 3/8-inch. When I started experimenting with the HRI clone doughs, my initial instincts were to form the skin to around 13" for a 12" pizza, and to use the extra inch to form the rim. What I expected to happen is that the skin would shrink during baking and yield a final diameter of 11 1/2 inches. That is the diameter of the frozen HRI pizzas that I measured before I baked them. The final diameter of those pizzas after baking was still about 11 1/2 inches. What I discovered is that in my home oven, I did not get much, if any, shrinkage during baking. It was as though the diameter was set permanently during formation of the skin. So, until I learn otherwise, I would form the skin such that, after fluting, the diameter is maybe a bit more than 11 1/2 inches. As for the rim height, it seems to me from photos I have seen that the rim heights are more than 3/8". I'm sure that the height varies from one pizza to another and from one pizza maker to another.

You and I were working on posts at about the same time this morning, but if you go back to Reply 566, you will see that I tweaked that post in several places to be more specific as to certain details and to reference the video you mentioned, and another as well, in order to show some of the details of the making of pizzas in HRI's pizzerias. I also tightened up on the language relating to the final skin size. Further to this point, I have been operating on the assumption, based on my research and experiments, including the weights of crusts for the HRI frozen pizzas that I dissected, that the dough ball weight for a 12" HRI pizza is 15 ounces. If it were more, then the crust would be thicker. However, I would have to see evidence of that.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 30, 2013, 11:20:52 AM
On that second video at 1:50 it shows Nick stretching a dough skin. My same day doughs with the larger amounts of oil(24%)would have never been able to be stretched like in the video. I'm anxious to see how this new batch of dough performs.

Bob

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2KrnK-TORnE#t=92s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2KrnK-TORnE#t=92s)
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 30, 2013, 11:44:26 AM
On that second video at 1:50 it shows Nick stretching a dough skin. My same day doughs with the larger amounts of oil(24%)would have never been able to be stretched like in the video. I'm anxious to see how this new batch of dough performs.

Bob


Bob,

Although my formulation was off from Peterís recent formulation in Reply 499 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg244299.html#msg244299 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg244299.html#msg244299) you can see I said I thought I could have stretched the skin after it was rolled a little like a regular pizza dough, but I didnít try that.

Best of luck!  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 30, 2013, 12:10:44 PM
Norma,

You raise a very good point about the thickness of the HRI skins. According to the article that is reproduced in Reply 188 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190395.html#msg190395 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190395.html#msg190395), an HRI pizza skin should have a thickness of about 1/4-inch and a flute height of 3/8-inch. When I started experimenting with the HRI clone doughs, my initial instincts were to form the skin to around 13" for a 12" pizza, and to use the extra inch to form the rim. What I expected to happen is that the skin would shrink during baking and yield a final diameter of 11 1/2 inches. That is the diameter of the frozen HRI pizzas that I measured before I baked them. The final diameter of those pizzas after baking was still about 11 1/2 inches. What I discovered is that in my home oven, I did not get much, if any, shrinkage during baking. It was as though the diameter was set permanently during formation of the skin. So, until I learn otherwise, I would form the skin such that, after fluting, the diameter is maybe a bit more than 11 1/2 inches. As for the rim height, it seems to me from photos I have seen that the rim heights are more than 3/8". I'm sure that the height varies from one pizza to another and from one pizza maker to another.

You and I were working on posts at about the same time this morning, but if you go back to Reply 566, you will see that I tweaked that post in several places to be more specific as to certain details and to reference the video you mentioned, and another as well, in order to show some of the details of the making of pizzas in HRI's pizzerias. I also tightened up on the language relating to the final skin size. Further to this point, I have been operating on the assumption, based on my research and experiments, including the weights of crusts for the HRI frozen pizzas that I dissected, that the dough ball weight for a 12" HRI pizza is 15 ounces. If it were more, then the crust would be thicker. However, I would have to see evidence of that.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing Reply 188 again.  I see now that an HRI skin should have a thickness of about ľ-inch and a flute height of 3/8-inch.  I would have thought the skin would have shrank more during the bake too.  Thanks for posting that to form the skin to 11 Ĺ inches after fluting.   

I went back to Reply 566 at your suggestion and saw what you posted.  That is a lot for my brain to remember.   

I think what gets me confused too about the TF is looking at the photos on Slice at http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html#continued (http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html#continued) that you referenced before in this thread.  Some of those bottom crusts look thicker and some look really thin to my eyes.

I donít think this is much interest to anyone, but this is how Home Run Inn frozen pizzas are wrapped.  This article goes back to 2006.

http://www.packagingdigest.com/article/341733-Shrink_film_scores_a_home_run_for_pizza.php (http://www.packagingdigest.com/article/341733-Shrink_film_scores_a_home_run_for_pizza.php)

From the waybackmachine it tells about the cartoning method that has changed the way HRI packages pizzas.  The cartoning system originated in the pharmaceutical industry.  .

http://web.archive.org/web/20101121092831/http://baking-management.com/equipment/bm_imp_16959/ (http://web.archive.org/web/20101121092831/http://baking-management.com/equipment/bm_imp_16959/)

The above article I think tells more about what was done and what might be done in frozen pizza technology.

A part of the above article from the waybackmachine from 2010:

"Carlson agrees the market goal is a fresher pizza. He says the industry is already moving in this direction with assembly lines that are  less harsh on dough. Dough pressing occurs in less time, and thus does not kill the yeast, creating a fresher product. He also sees the trend continuing toward less trans fats, and more precooked and natural ingredients, such as raw sausage, which requires more advanced equipment".

There are also frozen pizza statistics and trends from AIB for different years and Home Run Inn is mentioned, but I didnít try to go though all the links to see if anything specific is related to Home Run Inn.

https://www.aibonline.org/resources/statistics/pizza.html (https://www.aibonline.org/resources/statistics/pizza.html)

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 30, 2013, 12:14:30 PM
Bob,

Although my formulation was off from Peterís recent formulation in Reply 499 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg244299.html#msg244299 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg244299.html#msg244299) you can see I said I thought I could have stretched the skin after it was rolled a little like a regular pizza dough, but I didnít try that.

Best of luck!  ;D

Norma
Thank you Norma, same to you!  :chef:
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 30, 2013, 12:17:18 PM
Thank you Norma, same to you!  :chef:

Bob,

Thank you too Bob!  ;)  I have a lot to study before I made another attempt.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 30, 2013, 02:07:20 PM
On that second video at 1:50 it shows Nick stretching a dough skin. My same day doughs with the larger amounts of oil(24%)would have never been able to be stretched like in the video. I'm anxious to see how this new batch of dough performs.
Bob,

If you take a look to the right of Nick (or whoever is in the video), at 1:54, you will see a roller. I don't know whether that roller was a single pass or double pass roller (which is the most common type of roller today), but, either way, the roller performs several functions. It forms a skin of uniform thickness, it crushes the cell structure and degasses the skin, and it toughens the gluten. All of these measures should produce a skin that is pretty tough and capable of stretching without harming it. However, that said, I also await your results.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on March 30, 2013, 02:34:29 PM
I think what gets me confused too about the TF is looking at the photos on Slice at http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html#continued (http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html#continued) that you referenced before in this thread.  Some of those bottom crusts look thicker and some look really thin to my eyes.
Norma,

I suppose there are several possible explanations for variations in crust thickness. It might just be normal variations in preparation that are to be expected in a pizzeria, with different workers, and especially at peak times. It might be poor skills. For example, I always laugh when I see the person trying to form a skin starting at 0.36 in this video:

Home Run Inn Pizza (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsQCgtla79E#)

Another possibility is that there are normal variations in dough ball weights. That can happen whether the dough balls are scaled by workers with scales or by machines. Finally, it is possible that the thicker crusts you mention are due to the fact that in its pizzerias, the skins coming out of the hot presses are given a 15-20 minute proof before dressing and finishing. That might be just the right amount of time to allow the skins to recover from the pressing operation and to gain height. This last step is one that is used only in HRI's pizzerias. It is not used in the HRI frozen pizza operations although there may be some short delay going from the hot dough presses to the pre-bake ovens.

Peter

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 30, 2013, 02:48:22 PM
I always laugh when I see the person trying to form a skin starting at 0.36 in this video:



Peter
Haha!  I believe that is the owner of HRI Pizza!   :-D

btw, I worked the sheeter at my first pizzeria job when I was 13yrs. old.  ;D
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on March 30, 2013, 04:45:06 PM
Norma,

I suppose there are several possible explanations for variations in crust thickness. It might just be normal variations in preparation that are to be expected in a pizzeria, with different workers, and especially at peak times. It might be poor skills. For example, I always laugh when I see the person trying to form a skin starting at 0.36 in this video:

Home Run Inn Pizza (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsQCgtla79E#)

Another possibility is that there are normal variations in dough ball weights. That can happen whether the dough balls are scaled by workers with scales or by machines. Finally, it is possible that the thicker crusts you mention are due to the fact that in its pizzerias, the skins coming out of the hot presses are given a 15-20 minute proof before dressing and finishing. That might be just the right amount of time to allow the skins to recover from the pressing operation and to gain height. This last step is one that is used only in HRI's pizzerias. It is not used in the HRI frozen pizza operations although there may be some short delay going from the hot dough presses to the pre-bake ovens.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your explanations about why there might be variations in the crust thickness, dough ball weights, or even because the skin is coming out of those hot presses and are given a 15-20 minute proof before dressing and finishing.  I donít know who that person was in the blue shirt trying to form the skin at 0:36, but he must be related to HRI owners, or run one of their pizzerias, because he says we have this and we have that different times.  It looks to me that he is in that video different places.  I can see what you mean about him trying to form the skin though. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 02, 2013, 12:05:04 PM
After posting Reply 566 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715), I decided to go back to the chronological listing of items in Reply 304 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242309.html#msg242309 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242309.html#msg242309). In particular, I wanted to revisit the two articles that describe how HRI made pizzas in its pizzerias in the 2004-2005 time frame and also several years later, at around 2011.

The first article is the one reproduced in Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51590.html#msg51590 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6009.msg51590.html#msg51590), and the second article is the one excerpted in Reply 188 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190395.html#msg190395 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg190395.html#msg190395). There is always a possibility that the articles were not entirely correct or accurate or complete but I think it is possible to take away from those articles that the dough balls at the time that they go into the hot dough press are cold, right out of the refrigerators/coolers, and that the proofing of the dough balls, for about 15-20 minutes, takes place after the dough skins have been placed on their carriers (dark anodized perforated disks). One of the reasons why I reread the two articles is because I noted from the Slice article at http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html#continued (http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html#continued) that the photo of the HRI bottom crust shows only a couple of dimples due to the perforations in the disk. This might suggest that if a dough ball is allowed to warm up at room temperature, and is then rolled out form a skin and is docked, either before or after placement on the disk, and then left to proof again, there may be a lot of dimples on the bottom of the finished crust as the softened dough fills in some of the perforations in the disk. Apparently the hot dough press that HRI uses in its pizzerias applies just the right amount of heat to the dough skin as to create an exoskeleton and minimize penetration of the perforations in the disk even after the skin continues to proof thereafter.

If the above analysis is correct, using a cold dough should allow the rims to be formed even more easily and for the flutes to remain more erect longer. That could also mean that the hydration can be higher than what I suggested in Reply 566. My analysis, albeit based on HRI Nutrition Facts that I believe to contain errors, has been that the hydration is higher than 50%. In due course, I will perhaps test out the above thesis. I mention all of this here in case a member wants to read the two articles referenced above and to decide whether to independently test the thesis in the course of attempting an HRI clone along the lines discussed in Reply 566.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 02, 2013, 01:50:03 PM
Peter,
A change in plans forced me to use the dough from your Reply #566 after only 28 hours in the refrigerator. The rim pretty much collapsed during the pre-bake. The pizza, however tasted pretty good. This test was outside your parameters but if a more complete report and a couple of poor pix (my wife was out and took the iPhone) will help you in any way, I'd be happy to do so.

Jay
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 02, 2013, 03:13:28 PM
Jay,

Since HRI has stated in the past that their dough was cold fermented for 12-24 hours and then that was changed to 2-3 days, I wondered whether the long fermentation times, and especially at high yeast levels, would cause the dough to ferment to the point where the dough was soft and the fluted edges would not survive intact even before pre-baking. I already knew that their frozen pizzas had round rims so I went looking for photos of the pizzas made in HRI's pizzerias, but not photos prepared for HRI for its website and elsewhere by professional photographers. Not surprisingly, I found examples of where the fluted rims flattened out. See, for example, the photos at http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html?ref=thumb (http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html?ref=thumb), and, maybe to a somewhat lesser degree, at http://s3.amazonaws.com/foodspotting-ec2/reviews/1130563/thumb_600.jpg?1323997964 (http://s3.amazonaws.com/foodspotting-ec2/reviews/1130563/thumb_600.jpg?1323997964). To be sure, not all of the HRI pizzeria pizzas will have collapsed or flattened rims, as this photo makes abundantly clear: http://www.foodspotting.com/reviews/1109660 (http://www.foodspotting.com/reviews/1109660). However, if the HRI dough formulation is fixed, as it must be because the dough is delivered to HRI's pizzerias from one of their plants, and if the window of fermentation is from 12 hours to 3 days, it would seem to me that there can be substantial variations in the performance of the dough in HRI's pizzerias.

Originally, I speculated that HRI was using more than 2% yeast, mainly for flavor. Unfortunately, I do not know of any way of determining how much yeast is in a product based on the Nutrition Facts for that product. I meant to mention in my last post that it might be appropriate to go lower on the yeast and not overdue the fermentation. For example, 2.1% would allow a slower fermentation of the dough and perhaps result in a firmer dough in a two-day fermentation period, and even more so if the dough is formed into a skin while cold. I should also mention that one of the things I discovered is that if the dough is overly extensible at the time it is to be used, for example, due to an overly high hydration or overfermentation, it is possible to re-ball the dough and roll it out again. It should roll out again surprisingly easy, with maybe only a little rest. And the rim in that case should hold up better.

It's up to you if you want to post any photos, just in case there are any clues offered by your attempt.

Peter

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 02, 2013, 06:06:58 PM
This was made in accordance with Peterís Reply #566.
I followed it as closely as possible.

It is said, mostly by people who fail a lot, that often more is learned by failure than success. So, here I am going for my PhD (Pizza horror Documentation).
Kitchen temp. 68 į.
Water temp. 60 į.
Final dough temp after kneading 71 į.
Total dough wt. 15.1 oz.
ĎFridge temp 38 į.

I used the dough tool and Peterís % for a 12 inch pizza.
According to the dough tool I shouldíve had a dough wt. of 15.21 oz instead of 15.1 oz. I will have to live with that ignominy.
The dough spent 28 relaxing hours in the Ďfridge and was resuscitated for 2 hours on the kitchen counter.
I rolled it into a 12 Ĺ-inch circle.
Pre-baked at 400 į for 4 minutes.
Cooled pizza then topped and into the oven again. I used about an extra ounce of sauce, it looked a bit sparse.
After about 4 minutes, realized that Iíd forgotten to up the temp to 450 į so I turned it up.
Pizza looked done at 12 ĺ minutes.

My wife was out of the house with the iPhone so all I had to use for pix was her old Nikon CoolPix. I looked for the instruction booklet (I never used the camera) but could only find the Spanish language booklet. My Spanish is limited to ordering from the menu at my favorite Mexican restaurant so they are not ďmuy bueno.Ē
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 02, 2013, 08:04:48 PM
How did it taste Jay...looks real good.
Please tell what cheese you used....it's melting characteristics are very HRI'ish.  :chef:
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 03, 2013, 12:33:49 PM
Bob:

It tasted very good, better than the frozen HRI. The rim, even the parts that collapsed, were easy to eat, far less than 58-60 on the Rockwell hardness scale of the frozen pizza.
I bought the cheese from a local Italian deli, one of the old-time type where you can get delicious cannoli, imported Italian meats and cheeses. I have them cut off 1 lb chunks off the larger cheese and I vacuum seal them at home. I've never seen a wrapper on the cheese so I don't know what kind it is. Next time I go, I'll see if they'll tell me what kind it is. They have told me it's the same cheese they use to make their own pizzas.
Sorry, that was a lot of words to say that I can't ID the cheese.  :(
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 03, 2013, 03:06:01 PM
Good to hear Jay. It looks pretty authentic...just wish you had more pics of the crust there. I have a 2 ball batch brewing that has some slight changes to your reply # 566 dough. Will post it up tomorrow night(that will be a 2 day ferment) and then do the other one @ 3 or 4 day frig. ferment.
That's ok about the cheese...I hope they will actually tell you the brand of that cheese.

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 03, 2013, 03:15:59 PM
Bob:

There's a chance it was a brand I get from Costco, the cheese I used for the HRI type was a remnant of a larger chunk and I can't be sure that it wasn't Galbani Precious Mozzarella. Costco sells it in 2 lb blocks.
Obviously, I need to be more OCD in my pizza making.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 03, 2013, 03:22:21 PM
Bob:

There's a chance it was a brand I get from Costco, the cheese I used for the HRI type was a remnant of a larger chunk and I can't be sure that it wasn't Galbani Precious Mozzarella. Costco sells it in 2 lb blocks.
Thank you sir,
I believe Norma and I have previously discussed her using Precious brand cheese. I know it's mentioned by others and Scott knows about it's use over on the NY threads. Supposedly good commercial stuff and I just thought it looked like something non retail. That's why I asked. Time to check out Costco again.... :)

Thanks Jay.

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 03, 2013, 07:05:59 PM

I believe Norma and I have previously discussed her using Precious brand cheese. I know it's

Bob

Bob,

I don't ever recall that I tried the Precious brand of cheese, unless my memory is failing me again. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2013, 09:21:20 AM
I decided to give an HRI pizza another attempt.  I used Peterís new formulation. The way I mixed is:

1.  Put measured water into mixer bowl.
2.  Stirred flour, IDY and salt with a fork in a plastic container.
3.  Add the stirred flour, IDY and salt to the water.
4.  Mixed with flat beater until I thought mixture was incorporated.
5.  Slowing drizzled corn oil into mixture and continued using the flat beater.
6.  After mixture looked incorporated, changed to dough hook.
7.  Mixed for 5 minutes with dough hook.
8.  Scaled dough to 425 grams, balled, oiled dough ball with corn oil and placed poppy seeds on dough ball.
9.  Placed dough ball in plastic container and they went right into the refrigerator.

The final dough temperature was 73.1 degrees F.  I used my Kitchen Aid mixer.

Pictures of the process of mixing and dough formulation I used below.  I used Gold Medal unbleached AP flour.

I donít know if I will try to make the HRI pizza tomorrow evening or Saturday.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 04, 2013, 09:33:34 AM
Bob,

I don't ever recall that I tried the Precious brand of cheese, unless my memory is failing me again. 

Norma
Sorry Norma, your memory is not failing you....mine is.  ;D
It was a thread I was reading somewhere and it was Peter who was using Precious brand cheese.

btw, I have 2 dough balls going with the same formula that you are currently trying. We can have dueling banjos, I mean, pizza's!  :)

Bob

edit: my dough temp was 79 degrees, mixed the same way you did(that was a first for me,adding oil last)and boy mine sure didn't want to take in all that oil(19%)Kitchenaid with crappy C-hook. I had to finish it off on the counter by hand. After 24 hr. they had just about doubled. Right now @36hr. they have deflated slightly and seem to be holding there own at that state...they look good.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on April 04, 2013, 09:47:10 AM
Forgive my laziness for not re-reading a few hundred posts (:D), but why is oil last?

And has anyone tried oil first, before any water is added?

I really don't know what these achieve in baking, so I am looking to learn something here.

Thanks!
Garvey
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2013, 09:47:56 AM
Sorry Norma, your memory is not failing you....mine is.  ;D
It was a thread I was reading somewhere and it was Peter who was using Precious brand cheese.

btw, I have 2 dough balls going with the same formula that you are currently trying. We can have dueling banjos, I mean, pizza's!  :)

Bob

edit: my dough temp was 79 degrees, mixed the same way you did(that was a first for me,adding oil last)and boy mine sure didn't want to take in all that oil(19%)Kitchenaid with crappy C-hook. I had to finish it off on the counter by hand. After 24 hr. they had just about doubled. Right now @36hr. they have deflated slightly and seem to be holding there own at that state...they look good.

Bob,

It will be interesting to see if we get anywhere near the same results in our attempts since we are using the same formulation.  I agree we can have dueling banjos ďpizzasď!  :-D

Thanks for telling your final dough temperature, how the dough balls looked after 24 hrs., and how the dough balls look after 36 hrs, and how you mixed the same way.  I wonder why the dough balls have deflated slightly at 36 hrs.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2013, 09:59:56 AM
Forgive my laziness for not re-reading a few hundred posts (:D), but why is oil last?

And has anyone tried oil first, before any water is added?

I really don't know what these achieve in baking, so I am looking to learn something here.

Thanks!
Garvey

Garvey,

If you look at Peterís posted question to Tom Lehmann at Reply 11 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23345.msg236891.html#msg236891 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23345.msg236891.html#msg236891)
And keep reading down to Reply 14 by Tom Lehmann http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23345.msg236957.html#msg236957 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23345.msg236957.html#msg236957)  You can see why I am trying the method of adding the oil last.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on April 04, 2013, 10:10:11 AM
Thanks, Norma.  It's still unclear to me what they achieve by that process, necessarily. For example, if oil and water were dumped in all at once vs the post-water method, how does that change the dough (if at all)?

Cheers,
Garvey
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 04, 2013, 10:25:05 AM
Bob,

It will be interesting to see if we get anywhere near the same results in our attempts since we are using the same formulation.  I agree we can have dueling banjos ďpizzasď!  :-D

Thanks for telling your final dough temperature, how the dough balls looked after 24 hrs., and how the dough balls look after 36 hrs, and how you mixed the same way.  I wonder why the dough balls have deflated slightly at 36 hrs.

Norma
Good question Norma...and I have no idea except to say possibly all that oil there in these doughs.

Now you have peaked my interest so I went and checked the temp of my frig(I know mine is not set real real cold. 48 degrees is what I'm getting pretty much throughout the whole refer compartment. I did not monkey around at all with these dough balls, they have sat in the same spot and actually the frig has not been opened and closed much the last couple of days(gf and I have eaten out several times).

Since I was now curious I pinched off a very small piece, it has a real nice stretchiness(way better than any previous ones I'v made)and it held together to the point where I could stretch enough to see through it. When I was initially hand kneading it to get all of that oil incorporated(before placing in frig for fermentation)I thought that dough felt better for having all the water mixed in the flour first. As I said, that is not my usual way. I am one of those use the wire wisk to incorporate the fat into the flour first guys.

So we shall see. I'm even going out today to try and find some of my favorite Sorrento cheese. Hopefully going to bake one off tonight.  :drool:

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 04, 2013, 10:27:28 AM
Thanks, Norma.  It's still unclear to me what they achieve by that process, necessarily. For example, if oil and water were dumped in all at once vs the post-water method, how does that change the dough (if at all)?

Cheers,
Garvey
Fully hydrate the flour I believe Garvey and possibly keep all that oil from hindering fermentation.

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2013, 10:45:22 AM
Thanks, Norma.  It's still unclear to me what they achieve by that process, necessarily. For example, if oil and water were dumped in all at once vs the post-water method, how does that change the dough (if at all)?

Cheers,
Garvey

Garvey,

I am not sure of what happens, but think that Tom's method must work better with a really high oil amount.  I know I mixed my last HRI dough the same way and the dough could have been stretched well I think, but don't know since I didn't try stretching it after rolling.

I tried a recent dough formulation on another thread and that dough had a much lower vegetable oil amount.  I tried two different ways (one with the oil added last and one with the oil added first) and got totally different results.

I wish I could understand things better.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 04, 2013, 10:46:13 AM
Thanks for telling your final dough temperature, how the dough balls looked after 24 hrs., and how the dough balls look after 36 hrs, and how you mixed the same way.  I wonder why the dough balls have deflated slightly at 36 hrs.
Norma,

I went back to my notes and what Bob has experienced thus far is consistent with what I found in my tests. However, the degree of rise will depend on the finished dough temperature, the refrigerator temperature and its stability, and the number of dough balls being cooled at the same time. I believe also that Bob is using a somewhat greater hydration value than you are using, but he can correct me if I am wrong on that. But, with all this said, the dough balls shouldn't become billowy. As noted in the excerpt below from Reply 566 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715), eventually the dough will soften a bit, and it may even recede a bit, but almost imperceptibly so, and it should not collapse at the two-day point in the fermentation cycle, and it may not even after three days. I believe Bob plans to use one of the dough balls beyond two days, so there may be some degradation of the dough and further softening of the gluten structure but the dough should still be usable. I believe the key thing to look for after three days is the effect of the longer fermentation on the final structure of the crumb and crust of the pizza.

Here is the excerpt from Reply 566:

Because of the high yeast content, one can expect the dough to rise even in the refrigerator as it is being cooled. But the dough balls wonít be blowing off the lids or becoming like balloons. The dough will be well behaved and well mannered. In terms of the expansion that might be expected, the dough balls might increase in volume modestly within several hours (I use poppy seeds to monitor this activity) and then stabilize. After about a day of cold fermentation, the dough ball might have about doubled in volume, but it could be more or less depending on the temperatures involved and their stability during the period of fermentation. The timing may be also delayed if there were several dough balls being cooled at the same time. It should also be pointed out that the late addition of the IDY in the dough making process, as HRI does in its frozen pizza operations, can materially delay the fermentation process. But, throughout the fermentation process, the dough balls should be firm to the touch and remain so for pretty much the entire cold fermentation period but softening slightly toward the end of fermentation. I would perhaps shoot for two days of cold fermentation, to prevent the dough from fermenting too much, but one might try for three days to see if that is an improvement or not. It is also quite likely that one will see white spots all over the dough balls shortly after being refrigerated and as the fermentation proceeds but these spots can diminish with time. This is quite normal.


Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2013, 10:51:09 AM
Good question Norma...and I have no idea except to say possibly all that oil there in these doughs.

Now you have peaked my interest so I went and checked the temp of my frig(I know mine is not set real real cold. 48 degrees is what I'm getting pretty much throughout the whole refer compartment. I did not monkey around at all with these dough balls, they have sat in the same spot and actually the frig has not been opened and closed much the last couple of days(gf and I have eaten out several times).

Since I was now curious I pinched off a very small piece, it has a real nice stretchiness(way better than any previous ones I'v made)and it held together to the point where I could stretch enough to see through it. When I was initially hand kneading it to get all of that oil incorporated(before placing in frig for fermentation)I thought that dough felt better for having all the water mixed in the flour first. As I said, that is not my usual way. I am one of those use the wire wisk to incorporate the fat into the flour first guys.

So we shall see. I'm even going out today to try and find some of my favorite Sorrento cheese. Hopefully going to bake one off tonight.  :drool:

Bob

Bob,

I am glad I peaked your interest and you were curious about you dough balls.  That sounds good about the nice stretchiness of the dough.  8) 

Good luck with your HRI pizzas when you make them.  The Sorrento cheese sounds great.  I never tried that cheese before.  Looking forward to your results.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 04, 2013, 10:54:09 AM
Peter,
Ooops, you are correct. I am doing a slightly higher hydration.  ;)

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2013, 11:02:51 AM
Norma,

I went back to my notes and what Bob has experienced thus far is consistent with what I found in my tests. However, the degree of rise will depend on the finished dough temperature, the refrigerator temperature and its stability, and the number of dough balls being cooled at the same time. I believe also that Bob is using a somewhat greater hydration value than you are using, but he can correct me if I am wrong on that. But, with all this said, the dough balls shouldn't become billowy. As noted in the excerpt below from Reply 566 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715), eventually the dough will soften a bit, and it may even recede a bit, but almost imperceptibly so, and it should not collapse at the two-day point in the fermentation cycle, and it may not even after three days. I believe Bob plans to use one of the dough balls beyond two days, so there may be some degradation of the dough and further softening of the gluten structure but the dough should still be usable. I believe the key thing to look for after three days is the effect of the longer fermentation on the final structure of the crumb and crust of the pizza.

Here is the excerpt from Reply 566:

Because of the high yeast content, one can expect the dough to rise even in the refrigerator as it is being cooled. But the dough balls wonít be blowing off the lids or becoming like balloons. The dough will be well behaved and well mannered. In terms of the expansion that might be expected, the dough balls might increase in volume modestly within several hours (I use poppy seeds to monitor this activity) and then stabilize. After about a day of cold fermentation, the dough ball might have about doubled in volume, but it could be more or less depending on the temperatures involved and their stability during the period of fermentation. The timing may be also delayed if there were several dough balls being cooled at the same time. It should also be pointed out that the late addition of the IDY in the dough making process, as HRI does in its frozen pizza operations, can materially delay the fermentation process. But, throughout the fermentation process, the dough balls should be firm to the touch and remain so for pretty much the entire cold fermentation period but softening slightly toward the end of fermentation. I would perhaps shoot for two days of cold fermentation, to prevent the dough from fermenting too much, but one might try for three days to see if that is an improvement or not. It is also quite likely that one will see white spots all over the dough balls shortly after being refrigerated and as the fermentation proceeds but these spots can diminish with time. This is quite normal.


Peter

Peter,

Thanks for going back to your notes and posting what Bob has experienced thus far is consistent with what you found in your tests.  I can understand that the degree of rise will depend on the finished dough temperature, the refrigerator temperature and its stability, and the number of dough balls being cooled at the same time. 

Thanks for the except from Reply 566.  That was helpful.

My refrigerator temperature is lower than Bobís.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 04, 2013, 11:24:14 AM
Garvey,

Normally, when I work on projects like this one independently, I prefer not to post until I have achieved the desired results. In this case, there are a lot of variables involved, including the mixing sequence and the mixers used to make the dough, the mode of fermentation (ambient temperature fermentation versus cold fermentation), and the way that the skin is formed and its temperature in preparation to pre-baking/par-baking, etc. Working through these variables can take weeks of experimentation. Maybe we will get lucky this time and Bob and/or Norma will hit paydirt and spare us all from having to conduct a lot more experimenttion and testing. But, even if they don't hit paydirt, we may learn something more from their efforts.

With respect to the sequencing of oil into the dough, before or after the water, I have tried both ways, using my food processor and my KitchenAid stand mixer. Thus far, I have found that adding the oil before or after the water using my food processor produces comparable results. However, when I tried adding the oil to the flour and before the water using my stand mixer, the dough seemed to ferment much faster. In my case, I used all three attachments--the whisk attachment, the flat beater attachment and the C hook--so maybe that was responsible for the faster fermentation even though the finished dough temperature was where I wanted it. However, I haven't tried to repeat that method to see if I get the same results next time.

It may well turn out that the dough preparation method is not responsible for producing the flaky characteristics of the finished crust. That is why it can take so much time to find the answers.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 04, 2013, 11:41:36 AM
Peter,

450 straight on the stone?
The little piece I tore off and window paned has warmed up now and (to me) is looking more like a HRI dough.
My gut tells me cutter pan but I want to follow along here with the method you are envisioning for a final HRI clone. If you have already discussed what you feel will be final bake procedure could you please give a link. Thanks!

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 04, 2013, 01:01:40 PM
Peter,

450 straight on the stone?
The little piece I tore off and window paned has warmed up now and (to me) is looking more like a HRI dough.
My gut tells me cutter pan but I want to follow along here with the method you are envisioning for a final HRI clone. If you have already discussed what you feel will be final bake procedure could you please give a link. Thanks!
Bob,

Since HRI originally baked the pizzas directly on the stone surface of a deck oven, that method has always been an option. However, I am not absolutely convinced that the current HRI dough formulation is exactly the same one that was used with the old HRI deck ovens. Also, we don't currently have an HRI deck oven benchmark pizza against which to compare your results should you decide to bake your pizza on a stone. We only have a frozen HRI pizza benchmark and a benchmark for HRI pizzas made in their pizzerias. Maybe a stone baked version can be attempted once we see if we are on the right trail.

In Reply 566 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715, (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715,) I suggested a method to use to make the HRI clone skin and to complete the pizza. That method assumed that the dough would be warmed up before forming into a skin. However, after more research and re-reading the articles I had uncovered on how HRI had made its pizzas in its pizzerias, I came to suspect that HRI did not warm up its dough before forming the skins, but rather let the skins themselves warm up while on their carriers for about 15-20 minutes. This was after the skins had come out of the dough presses and were docked and placed on the carriers. It was because of the possibility that HRI was putting cold or cool dough balls into its hot dough presses that I suspected that the HRI dough could sustain a higher hydration value (the one you are testing) than what I earlier proposed in Reply 566. I discussed this deviation from plan at Reply 578 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg246267.html#msg246267. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg246267.html#msg246267.)

When I am confronted with dilemmas like this, my usual practice is to use common sense and rely on my instincts. For example, I know that it is possible to form a skin with a cold, or cool, HRI clone dough. If it resists rolling, I would let it warm it up a bit, and then try to finish rolling it. If, on the other hand, the dough seems overly soft or a bit too sticky and is clearly extensible or likely to become so, then I would dust it with enough bench flour to keep it from sticking and promptly form it into a skin. As mentioned in Reply 556, I would want to work the skin while on a wood peel, dock it there, and then transfer it to the carrier. The rest of the procedure I recommended is in Reply 556.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 04, 2013, 01:24:22 PM
10-4...I think I got some good "common sense and instincts" ready for this puppy.   ;)
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on April 04, 2013, 03:08:15 PM
Thanks, Peter.  It was fascinating to read how the sequence of ingredients affected fermentation.  My baking knowledge is quite limited to pizza and certain kinds of bread, and it seems like there is some movement towards the pastry side of things throughout these experiments (i.e., in the sense of tweaking variables, trying for different flakiness, etc.).

Cheers,
Garvey
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2013, 07:32:19 PM
This is how my attempted HRI dough ball looks like after less than 12 hrs. of cold fermenting.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 05, 2013, 08:02:54 AM

I think my attempted HRI dough ball is fermenting too fast.  These are pictures of the dough ball this morning before it is even 24 hrs. into the cold fermenting period.

I guess I should have added the IDY later in the mixing process as Peter described in Reply 566 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715)

Maybe I should just make the dough again.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 05, 2013, 08:32:30 AM
I think my attempted HRI dough ball is fermenting too fast.  These are pictures of the dough ball this morning before it is even 24 hrs. into the cold fermenting period.

I guess I should have added the IDY later in the mixing process as Peter described in Reply 566 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715)

Maybe I should just make the dough again.
Norma,

The reason I suggested adding the IDY late in the process is because that is what the article about HRI at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14 (http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14) says to do, at page 24. The late addition of the yeast is a trick I learned long ago from a couple of our members to slow down the fermentation rate. It can also be used with ADY. I have even wondered whether HRI may be using dry ADY for better dough management (and also for more flavor), especially for its frozen pizza operations.

In your case, I think the dough should be salvageable. When time comes to use the dough, if it is a bit on the damp or sticky side because of the high fermentation rate, and it looks like the skin will be overly extensible, you might re-ball the dough and try rolling it out again. The dough might require a bit of bench flour and a brief rest, but I think you should still be able to form a skin out of it. I did this with a high yeast (2.5% IDY), room temperature fermented version of an HRI clone dough that had almost tripled in volume over a  period of almost four hours, and the finished pizza was very good. That test showed me that it is possible that HRI is using an emergency type dough for its frozen pizza operations, which is why I ran the test in the first place.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 05, 2013, 09:16:13 AM
Norma,

The reason I suggested adding the IDY late in the process is because that is what the article about HRI at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14 (http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14) says to do, at page 24. The late addition of the yeast is a trick I learned long ago from a couple of our members to slow down the fermentation rate. It can also be used with ADY. I have even wondered whether HRI may be using dry ADY for better dough management (and also for more flavor), especially for its frozen pizza operations.

In your case, I think the dough should be salvageable. When time comes to use the dough, if it is a bit on the damp or sticky side because of the high fermentation rate, and it looks like the skin will be overly extensible, you might re-ball the dough and try rolling it out again. The dough might require a bit of bench flour and a brief rest, but I think you should still be able to form a skin out of it. I did this with a high yeast (2.5% IDY), room temperature fermented version of an HRI clone dough that had almost tripled in volume over a  period of almost four hours, and the finished pizza was very good. That test showed me that it is possible that HRI is using an emergency type dough for its frozen pizza operations, which is why I ran the test in the first place.

Peter

Peter,

I know I should have read over your Reply at 566 better before I mixed the dough.  I really didnít recall the late addition of the yeast is a trick you learned a long ago from a couple of other members to slow down the fermentation rate.  Maybe you are right that HRI may be using dry ADY for better dough management and also to give more flavor to the dough.  Maybe I will try ADY later in the mix at some point in time.

Thanks for telling me you think my dough will be salvageable.  I will follow your suggestions when I try to use the dough.  Thanks also for telling me you did something similar.  I guess I will just break the big bubble now and wait and see what happens.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 05, 2013, 03:45:28 PM
Norma,

I forgot to mention it in my last post, but if you decide that you would like to try a dough press, I think I found one that might do a good job of imparting a gread deal of pressure per square inch of your dough skin:

http://katedeering.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/sumo-wrestler1.jpg (http://katedeering.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/sumo-wrestler1.jpg)


Peter
As a young'in in Chicago I worked my share of punch and brake presses. I can assure you this is one press you don't want to get your hand caught in....gives a whole new meaning to "ya might not get it back".  ;D

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg244798.html#msg244798 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg244798.html#msg244798)
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 05, 2013, 05:25:03 PM
Norma,

I didn't add the IDY late and I didn't have the big bubble you have. I did have some trouble getting the dough ball to form like Bob did using my KA dough hook. I had to knead by hand for a minute or two and then the dough hook worked fine. I cut a 2" dowel to 18" in length to try to use as a human powered sheeter. Next week, I think I'll try it.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 05, 2013, 05:56:27 PM
Well this was bummer... :(
I'll post the pics but suffice it to say that I believe the 15min. pre-bake of the crust(which handled beautifully)was the kiss of death here. No heat coming through to the toppings, had to get it off perforated pan 10 min into bake and on to cold cutter pan placed all the way up top to get some browning up there.

No layering, just dense almost cardboard crust...sorry, but that's the way that it was here on April 05 2013!  ;D  Thank goodness my Premio sausage did not let Bob down....that 50/50 mix of Classico puree and crushed can save a day too.  ;)

Used Norma's 10oz of cheese for a 12 incher...just right.  ;)  50/50 Sorrento whole milk "high moisture" and their "low moisture"....I've had better.  ::)

Weighed 6oz sauce...perfect for this sauce head.

I'm hoping to bake the other dough ball after while and see what shakes out with a no pre bake straight on a cutter pan.  ;)



Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 05, 2013, 07:00:38 PM
This is my next attempt at an HRI clone.  The dough ball was left to warm-up for 20 minutes and smelled very yeasty. The dough ball was dipped in flour on both sides and a little flour was sprinkled on the wooden peel.  The dough was very easy to roll on the wooden peel.  I believe the dough could have been stretched by hand, but I just rolled it out.  The skin then was docked on the wooden peel and the edges were fluted.  It can be seen what measurements there are by the photos.  The skin was pre-baked at 400 degrees F.  I saw the bottom skin while pre-baking had some pimples on the edges of the dark disk and there were some places in the top par-baked skin that looked like bubbles.  The pizza was the dressed with 10 ounces of mozzarella, 4 ounces of tomato sauce, 14 slices of pepperoni in a 3-4-4-3 pattern, and then oregano was applied.  The pizza was baked on the dark disk on the middle rack of my oven at 440 degrees F.  I saw the bottom was browning before the mozzarella browned enough so I moved the pizza on the disk to the top rack of the oven for about 3 minutes.

There was some flakiness in the crust, but I donít believe there was enough.  The pizza was very good in my opinion and the crust did have a good taste. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 05, 2013, 07:02:33 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 05, 2013, 07:04:31 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 05, 2013, 07:06:55 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 05, 2013, 07:08:18 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 05, 2013, 07:11:48 PM
Norma,

I didn't add the IDY late and I didn't have the big bubble you have. I did have some trouble getting the dough ball to form like Bob did using my KA dough hook. I had to knead by hand for a minute or two and then the dough hook worked fine. I cut a 2" dowel to 18" in length to try to use as a human powered sheeter. Next week, I think I'll try it.

Jay,

I don't know why I got that big bubble.  My fridge temperature is about 39 degrees F.  Will be interested to see how you human powered sheeter works.   ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 05, 2013, 07:14:25 PM
Bob,

Clearly, the pre-bake of the skin for 14 minutes was far too long.

As previously discussed, and as stated in the article about HRI's frozen pizza plant at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14 (http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14), once the skins come out of the hot dough press, they are pre-baked for 90 seconds at a temperature of 490 degrees F. That is for "naked" skins,  not skins on disks as are used in HRI's pizzerias. Once the skins are topped with sauce, cheese and toppings, the pizzas so dressed are par-baked for another three minutes at a temperature of 495 degrees F. Eventually, they are flash frozen. The rest of the bake time takes place in the consumer's home oven.

In my tests, I tried a 90-second pre-bake just to see what I would get. As I expected, it was too short for a skin on a disk. So, in subsequent tests, I went to a three-minute pre-bake time That seemed to work for a simple pepperoni pizza but when I tried a combination of pepperoni and sausage, which made for a heavier pizza, I concluded that I perhaps needed a somewhat longer pre-bake time. In all my experiments, I put the pre-baked skins (on their carriers) on the middle oven rack position of my standard electric home oven. The dressed pizzas were baked on the middle rack also. I should also note that my skins were made with dough that had been warmed up at room temperature for about an hour or so. I did not try to use the dough while cold or cool, or proof the skins while on their disks. That is for a future experiment.

I was reluctant in Reply 566 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715) to state a pre-bake time for the skin. That is because there are so many different types and models of ovens and I didn't want people to slavishly follow a pre-bake time that I used in my electric oven. However, I plan to go back to Reply 566 and clarify what I said there so people don't use bake times that are excessively long.

It sounds like the dough handled well notwithstanding the final results. Can you tell us more about that and how you prepared and handled the skin prior to its pre-bake?

Peter

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 05, 2013, 07:27:36 PM
Norma,

Overall, I think you did quite well with your latest effort.

It sounds like the dough handled quite well. Can you tell us how long you pre-baked the crust before dressing it and finishing the bake?

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 05, 2013, 07:55:31 PM
Norma,

It sounds like the dough handled quite well. Can you tell us how long you pre-baked the crust before dressing it and finishing the bake?

Peter

Peter,

The attempted HRI pizza was good, but I sure donít know how to get more flakiness.  Maybe I should have left the skin on the dark disk at room temperature for about 10-15 minutes before pre-baking it. 

The dough did handle very well.  I pre-baked the crust for a little over 4 minutes.  The crust looked light to me at that amount of time, but it did look set.  I canít really set my oven to 400 degrees and expect it to be at 400 degrees F, so I used my IR gun and the IR gun said it was under 400 degrees at some places and over 400 degrees some places.  I did open the oven different times too, so I am not sure exactly what temperature the crust was pre-baked at.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 05, 2013, 08:24:52 PM
Norma,

There is no way to know for sure what caused your particular results because you deviated from the dough making sequence that HRI purportedly uses. For example, in your case, the accelerated fermentation may have affected the final crust texture. Also, HRI may be proofing the skins on the carriers in its restaurants rather than letting the dough balls themselves warm up before forming into skins. As speculated earlier, HRI may be feeding cold or cool dough balls into its dough presses in the restaurants. The dough presses may create the exoskeleton yet let the skins proof thereafter. 

Peter

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 05, 2013, 09:02:49 PM
Norma,

There is no way to know for sure what caused your particular results because you deviated from the dough making sequence that HRI purportedly uses. For example, in your case, the accelerated fermentation may have affected the final crust texture. Also, HRI may be proofing the skins on the carriers in its restaurants rather than letting the dough balls themselves warm up before forming into skins. As speculated earlier, HRI may be feeding cold or cool dough balls into its dough presses in the restaurants. The dough presses may create the exoskeleton yet let the skins proof thereafter. 

Peter

Peter,

I know I deviated from the dough making sequence that HRI probably uses, and the fast fermentation of my dough ball might have affected the final crust texture.

I think I am going to let future experiments to other members on an HRI clone pizza.  I donít think I will ever get the right texture in the crust with that flakiness. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 06, 2013, 10:22:15 AM


I was reluctant in Reply 566 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715) to state a pre-bake time for the skin. That is because there are so many different types and models of ovens and I didn't want people to slavishly follow a pre-bake time that I used in my electric oven. However, I plan to go back to Reply 566 and clarify what I said there so people don't use bake times that are excessively long.

It sounds like the dough handled well notwithstanding the final results. Can you tell us more about that and how you prepared and handled the skin prior to its pre-bake?

Peter
Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking with that 14min pre-bake. In reply 566 you said bake to a light brown....maybe that flute edge was protecting the top because without my realizing it the bottom was browning while the top stayed white.  :-D

Any way, I rolled it cold right from the frig. fluting stood right up for me. My dough docker is hiding so I grabbed a fork an lightly docked, onto a perf. pan and into 400 degree middle rack for 14min.  :o

For this other ball I have do you recommend room temp. before rolling or should I just move on to trying something new?

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 06, 2013, 11:20:54 AM
For this other ball I have do you recommend room temp. before rolling or should I just move on to trying something new?

Bob
Bob,

I think I would still work the dough while cold but do everything on the flour-dusted wooden peel, including the docking. Then, I think I would slide the docked skin onto the disk or cutter pan and form the fluted rim, but being careful as not to push the flat part of the skin into the holes of the disk or cutter pan. If needed, I would tug the edges of the skin at this time if it needs more uniform rounding. I would then let the docked, fluted skin rest for about 15 minutes on the disk or cutter pan at room temperature, readjusting the fluted rim (and skin size) if necessary. Then I would do the pre-bake. If the dough is still cool at that point, then you may need to pre-bake a bit longer to compensate for that coolness. Alternatively, you can use a higher pre-bake temperature, maybe 425 degrees F.

As somewhat an aside, I took a closer look at the workers shown in the photo at page 24 at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14. (http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14.) You will see three workers in that photo. There is a person standing next to wheeled racks of dough balls in trays, and there is a worker against the back wall. I am not exactly sure what she is doing but at some point there are 40-lb pieces of dough that come out of the dough chunker and formed into dough balls and weighed. Those dough balls apparently end up in the racks. Finally, there is a third person working the line into the hot dough presses. I suspect that there is another worker on the other side of the line to be sure that the dough balls properly enter the hot press area but was not shown in the photo. The point of all of this is that the dough balls do get some fermentation before they head into the dough presses. There is nothing in the article to suggest that there is any cold fermentation, but that may have been an innocent omission. Or it might have been intentional. We just don't know. But for a facility that goes through 20,000-30,000 pounds of flour a day and can make 120,000 6" pizzas, 100,000 10" pizzas or 120,000 12" pizzas a day, that would take a lot of cold storage capacity. That makes me believe that HRI uses continuously produced dough balls that get some ambient temperature fermentation and feed into the hot press area shown in the photo. By contrast, for the HRI pizzerias, we have been told that there is cold fermentation.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 06, 2013, 11:41:53 AM
That is a lot of pizza pie's!  :o  No wonder they went into the frozen pizza business. Maybe we should consider doing that Pete-zza.  8)

fwiw, I didn't notice any big taste difference with that 3 day dough(maybe cause I over cooked the crap out of it).   It's no secret that many Chi-town thin pizza place's use a same day dough(it is mainly merely a carrier to bring on that great Premio sausage flavah :)).

Thanks for the continuing tips Peter. Until we get closer and then need some hard weight data would it be acceptable for me to switch over to 10in. pie's for now?

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 06, 2013, 11:52:32 AM
Thanks for the continuing tips Peter. Until we get closer and then need some hard weight data would it be acceptable for me to switch over to 10in. pie's for now?

Bob

Bob,

I would prefer to stick with the 12" size so as not to introduce another variable. Also, the 12" size is the one many of us have become familiar with. It is also the size that I dismantled to get weight data. If you'd like to make a 10" size on the side, I can convert the data for you for the cheese, sauce, pepperoni, etc. for that size, although I don't know if HRI uses proportional amounts of everything it puts on its pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 06, 2013, 12:06:25 PM
Bob,

I would prefer to stick with the 12" size so as not to introduce another variable. Also, the 12" size is the one many of us have become familiar with. It is also the size that I dismantled to get weight data. If you'd like to make a 10" size on the side, I can convert the data for you for the cheese, sauce, pepperoni, etc. for that size, although I don't know if HRI uses proportional amounts of everything it puts on its pizzas.

Peter
Well, I'm just thinking in terms of getting the dough dialed in. I can eyeball cheese and sauce amounts on this type of pizza no matter what the size and know I will be very close, at least in terms as to how they will effect the bake of the crust.
I'd like to step up and do one of these a day to see if this crust is doable. But my dog an I can only eat so much HRI pizza Peter... ;D    That's why I'm asking about 10in for now and if dough paydirt is found I can always go back to 12 in order to dial in topping weights. Make sense?

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 06, 2013, 12:13:23 PM
Bob,

That's fine. I, too, can only eat so much pizza, whether it is an HRI clone pizza or any other kind. That is why I space my experiments.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 06, 2013, 12:17:33 PM
Yeah but Bob is on a mission man...this dough has got me slightly ticked off!   8)
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 06, 2013, 01:40:05 PM
Pete,
I'm going to try another HRI dough tomorrow. Should I do away with the two hour warm up out of the fridge? Will also try using a dough pin to try some human sheeter action. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'll use the phone's camera to take better pics this time. Any chance of using my 12" non-perforated cutter pan with this dough instead of disk?
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 06, 2013, 03:19:15 PM
Pete,
I'm going to try another HRI dough tomorrow. Should I do away with the two hour warm up out of the fridge? Will also try using a dough pin to try some human sheeter action. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'll use the phone's camera to take better pics this time. Any chance of using my 12" non-perforated cutter pan with this dough instead of disk?
Jay,

It seems that a dough that is used cold is more amenable to the formation of an upstanding fluted rim, even with a hydration value of 53% that Bob has been testing recently. The skin should also roll out to size quite easily. So, in your case, you might do the same as Bob did in forming his last skin. 

As for the use of an unperforated 12" cutter pan, I think it is worth a try. HRI says that they use perforated disks to "allow moisture and heat to penetrate the crust". However, if it turns out that the bottom crust does not brown sufficiently using your unperforated cutter pan, you may have to slip the pizza out of the pan at some point and onto a rack where you can get more bottom heat. Since the unperforated cutter pan will take longer to heat up than a perforated one, you may also find it necessary to move the pizza higher up in the oven at some point (maybe toward the end of the final bake) if the top needs more heat.

If you decide to try your unperforated cutter pan, you should be able to dock the skin right in the cutter pan. Once you have formed the fluted rim, you can let the dough proof for about 15 minutes before pre-baking. If needed, you can readjust the rim and pizza size after that rest period.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 06, 2013, 03:29:36 PM
Pete,
I'm going to try another HRI dough tomorrow. Should I do away with the two hour warm up out of the fridge? Will also try using a dough pin to try some human sheeter action. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'll use the phone's camera to take better pics this time. Any chance of using my 12" non-perforated cutter pan with this dough instead of disk?
Jay,
I'm doing my next the same way you are discussing...we'll have dueling pizza's.  :)
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 06, 2013, 06:22:08 PM
My pizza skill are pretty primitive so I'll concede right now...unless I can trick you into putting on these handcuffs.  >:D
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 06, 2013, 07:06:11 PM
Yeah but Bob is on a mission man...this dough has got me slightly ticked off!   8)

Bob,

I thought I was on the mission too, but that dough got me ticked off, at least for a little while.   :-D 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 10, 2013, 10:31:24 AM
I donít think these pictures were posted before of Home Run Inn pizzas (but if they were, just ignore or delete this post), but if the photos are clicked though the crust looks very light in color and there might be a gum line in the pizzas.  If interested, the photos might have to be accessed by clicking the Southside Chicago tag to be able to click though the photos. I am not sure how that works in trying to post the link to the photos.  These photos were posted by Eddie from Chicago on Flicker.  In the photo of the delicious homemade Italian garlic bread with Marinara sauce is looked at there appears to me there is a gum line.

Chicago's famous Home Run Inn Pizza restaurant at 6221 South Archer Avenue in Chicago;s Garfield Ridge neighborhood. Chicago Illinois USA. April 2009. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eddie-chicago-railfan/3464462620/#)

If I decide to attempt another Home Run Inn dough and pizza what hydration is recommended?

Edit:  For me I had to click on the older tab to be able to see the pictures.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 10, 2013, 11:34:14 AM
Norma,

On the matter of the hydration value to use, I was hoping to get the latest feedback from Bob for the remaining dough ball that he had prepared, or so I thought. However, I am beginning to think that the extent of fermentation may be as critical as the hydration since a long fermentation may cause a weakening of the gluten matrix and make the dough softer overall. There are ways of offsetting the weakening of the gluten matrix that come to mind such as using a lower hydration value, reducing the amount of IDY (but still above 2%), using ADY in dry form (above 2% and maybe as high as 2.5%), using a longer knead in order to more fully develop and strengthen the gluten, or shorten the fermentation window. I think the desired end result is a dough that can be formed into a skin with a fluted rim that will remain erect and where the flat part of the skin does not sink into the holes of the perforated disk or cutter pan. Working the dough while cold should also help and yet be able to withstand a 15-20 minute rest while on the disk or cutter pan.

With a pizza as shown in the photos with sausage, pepperoni and peppers, and especially at the larger size noted in the photos, and a 425-450 degrees F oven temperature, I think it is perhaps inevitable that there will be a gum line, especially in the middle part of the crust.

I found that clicking on the HRI photo at the webpage you referenced allowed me to view all of the other HRI photos.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 10, 2013, 12:04:49 PM
Sorry Peter, forgot about that one. After 6 days it was flattened out and very wet with water all over it. So I didn't make a HRI with it.
fwiw, I divided it in half and reballed. Rolled each 7 1/2oz ball out to 12in and made probably the tastiest thin crust pizza I've had in a while.

I'm going to take a close look at your latest post and mix something up this afternoon.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 10, 2013, 12:15:30 PM
Sorry Peter, forgot about that one. After 6 days it was flattened out and very wet with water all over it. So I didn't make a HRI with it.
Bob,

No need to apologize. Actually, I'm glad to get the feedback in light of my concern about the effects of a long fermentation on a dough such as the HRI clone dough. In the various articles I read about HRI's dough, the window of fermentation specified in the articles ranged from 12 hours to about three days. That is a pretty wide spread, and one that I would imagine would result in significant variations in the pizzas made in their pizzerias. 

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 10, 2013, 12:24:55 PM
Norma,

On the matter of the hydration value to use, I was hoping to get the latest feedback from Bob for the remaining dough ball that he had prepared, or so I thought. However, I am beginning to think that the extent of fermentation may be as critical as the hydration since a long fermentation may cause a weakening of the gluten matrix and make the dough softer overall. There are ways of offsetting the weakening of the gluten matrix that come to mind such as using a lower hydration value, reducing the amount of IDY (but still above 2%), using ADY in dry form (above 2% and maybe as high as 2.5%), using a longer knead in order to more fully develop and strengthen the gluten, or shorten the fermentation window. I think the desired end result is a dough that can be formed into a skin with a fluted rim that will remain erect and where the flat part of the skin does not sink into the holes of the perforated disk or cutter pan. Working the dough while cold should also help and yet be able to withstand a 15-20 minute rest while on the disk or cutter pan.

With a pizza as shown in the photos with sausage, pepperoni and peppers, and especially at the larger size noted in the photos, and a 425-450 degrees F oven temperature, I think it is perhaps inevitable that there will be a gum line, especially in the middle part of the crust.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts.  Do you have any recommendations on how long to try and cold ferment the dough and also what hydration I should try?  I can try ADY if you want me to try that.  I have a full bag of Red Star ADY. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 10, 2013, 12:26:02 PM
And I'll do an IDY.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 10, 2013, 12:58:51 PM
Thanks for your thoughts.  Do you have any recommendations on how long to try and cold ferment the dough and also what hydration I should try?  I can try ADY if you want me to try that.  I have a full bag of Red Star ADY. 
Norma,

Why don't you try 50% hydration, 2.5% dry ADY (mainly for flavor), 19% corn oil, 2% salt, and monitor the expansion of the dough. If the dough about doubles within a day, then that might be a good time to use it. Otherwise, look to use it the next day. I would not want to see the dough triple in volume, although it would still work but may not have adequate strength.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 10, 2013, 01:59:33 PM
Norma,

Why don't you try 50% hydration, 2.5% dry ADY (mainly for flavor), 19% corn oil, 2% salt, and monitor the expansion of the dough. If the dough about doubles within a day, then that might be a good time to use it. Otherwise, look to use it the next day. I would not want to see the dough triple in volume, although it would still work but may not have adequate strength.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for suggesting what to try next.  I will place the poppy seeds on the dough ball again to monitor the expansion and will wait until the dough about doubles to make the next attempt.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 10, 2013, 05:21:46 PM
I mixed another HRI clone dough attempt and used the instructions Peter posted at Reply
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715.html#msg245715)
for the mixing sequences of ingredients.  The Kitchen Aid mixer did a good job and no extra flour had to be added, but the first mix with the flour and water sure had the mixer bowl trying to jump off where it sits on the mixer arms.

I did scale the dough ball back to 425 grams, but now see I made a mistake with what TF I used in the Expanded Dough Calculation Tool. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2013, 08:14:15 AM
I checked on the dough ball that was placed on the bottom shelf on my refrigerator this morning and it had already more than doubled in expansion.  I then checked my fridge temperature and it was at 42.5 degrees F on the bottom shelf.  The temperature of the fridge was warmer than I thought it would be, but I still donít understand how the dough ball expanded so much already.  My fridge was opened and shut last evening different times and I donít know if that did anything to the dough ball or not.  The air conditioner was on in my place because it was very warm in my area yesterday.  The ambient room temperature where I was mixing the dough was 80 degrees F.  The final dough temperature was lower than what was suggested.  The dough ball had been in the fridge for 14 hrs. 45 minutes when the photos were taken.   

The dough sure wasnít tacky when it was finished mixing yesterday.  To me, it felt like a regular dough.  This time I did add the ADY and salt in the last knead.  I donít know what the heck is going on with this dough ball, but think the experimental dough ball is already flawed in that it expanded too much.  The dough ball feels dry (even though it was oiled with corn oil), but there feels like there might be some air under the one place in the top of the dough ball.

Should I proceed later today to pre-bake the skin and then make the pizza, or should I start over again?

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2013, 08:33:42 AM
To follow-up on my last post, I was thinking about what I might have done differently and now recalled I did sift the flour before I added the flour to the water, incase it had become too compacted.  I know sifting the flour wasnít recommended.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 11, 2013, 08:53:26 AM
Norma,

Did you add the ADY in dry form? I can't recall having a dough rise that fast in the refrigerator when using ADY in dry form. Around noon yesterday, I made a test dough with 51% hydration, 2.5% ADY (in dry form), 2% salt, and 19% corn oil, and as I compose this reply this morning, after about 20 hours of cold fermentation, the expansion based on the poppy seed spacing is about 68%. I used my food processor to make the dough, using the sequence flour-water-corn oil-dry ADY-salt, and the finished dough temperature at the time the dough went into the refrigerator was 76.9 degrees F. The room temperature was 70 degrees F. Yesterday, it got cool in my area, with temperatures in the 30s-40s, and remained in the 40s overnight, and my refrigerator ran cooler than normal, so that might help explain why my dough did not rise as fast as yours.

In your case, I would use the dough. It should still make a good pizza in my opinion even if it may not be the best test dough for analytical purposes.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 11, 2013, 09:00:33 AM
To follow-up on my last post, I was thinking about what I might have done differently and now recalled I did sift the flour before I added the flour to the water, incase it had become too compacted.  I know sifting the flour wasnít recommended.
Norma,

It is possible that the sifting sped up the fermentation process because of the improved hydration of the flour but I don't know if that was the culprit in your case. I did not sift the flour in my case because I assumed that HRI did not do that, given that the flour used to make their dough is stored in a silo and pneumatically conveyed into their mixer bowls.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2013, 09:36:39 AM
Norma,

Did you add the ADY in dry form? I can't recall having a dough rise that fast in the refrigerator when using ADY in dry form. Around noon yesterday, I made a test dough with 51% hydration, 2.5% ADY (in dry form), 2% salt, and 19% corn oil, and as I compose this reply this morning, after about 20 hours of cold fermentation, the expansion based on the poppy seed spacing is about 68%. I used my food processor to make the dough, using the sequence flour-water-corn oil-dry ADY-salt, and the finished dough temperature at the time the dough went into the refrigerator was 76.9 degrees F. The room temperature was 70 degrees F. Yesterday, it got cool in my area, with temperatures in the 30s-40s, and remained in the 40s overnight, and my refrigerator ran cooler than normal, so that might help explain why my dough did not rise as fast as yours.

In your case, I would use the dough. It should still make a good pizza in my opinion even if it may not be the best test dough for analytical purposes.

Peter

Peter,

I did add the ADY in dry form.  That was the big pack of Red Start ADY I purchased recently and had in the fridge since I opened it.  I added the ADY and salt after my dough looked mixed well.  I also used the sequence of flour-water-drizzled in corn oil-dry ADY-salt.  My fridge was probably opened and shut a lot more than yours was too.  My daughter and I are always taking something out of the fridge for us or the animals. 

Itís good to hear your test dough is behaving better than mine.  Will be interested to hear your results.

I will continue to make the pizza at your advise.  I have to run to the store to get some LMPS mozzarella, because I donít have any right now.  At least my mother likes this type of pizza, so if the results arenít really what I want she will have some leftover pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2013, 09:44:13 AM
Norma,

It is possible that the sifting sped up the fermentation process because of the improved hydration of the flour but I don't know if that was the culprit in your case. I did not sift the flour in my case because I assumed that HRI did not do that, given that the flour used to make their dough is stored in a silo and pneumatically conveyed into their mixer bowls.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for telling me you really donít know if sifting the flour was the culprit in my too fast expansion of my dough ball.  I only sifted because I had been in and out of that bag of flour many times with the measuring cup.  I sure didnít think HRI would sift their flour.

I also have been thinking over why my last experimental pizza didnít work and know I did some things that were not suggested.  I told Steve on Tuesday that I had taken pepperoni out of the freezer to defrost and just grabbed a few slices to eat plain, but added those slices to the counted out pepperoni.  When I went to make the pizza and applied the pepperoni I was one piece of pepperoni short, because I had eaten what I thought were the extra slices, but must have eaten one of the slices of pepperoni that was supposed to have been placed on the pizza.  I then went and grabbed one more piece of frozen pepperoni that I tried to heat up with my hand and then applied that one final piece to the already dressed pizza.  Steve told me I should have just forgotten about that extra slice of pepperoni.  I told Steve I wonder if the already dressed pizza sitting there with that sauce on it affected my final bake any.  I know Steve and I concluded I probably would never know that answer.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 11, 2013, 10:05:01 AM
Norma,

The Armour pepperoni slices I have been using (mainly because they do not oil off as much as other retail brands available to me) weigh about 25 ounces for 14 slices. That is less than 2 grams per slice. By my estimation, the weight of a typical unbaked HRI pepperoni clone pizza is around 850 grams. So, one pepperoni slice is minuscule by comparison. The greater effect, although also possibly harmless in most cases, would be the delay in baking the pizza if, for example, you let the pizza sit around for too long to give the single pepperoni slice time to warm up. A single slice of pepperoni is so thin that even if added to the pizza while frozen would come to temperature very quickly and not affect the pizza in any way that you could detect.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2013, 10:24:34 AM
Norma,

The Armour pepperoni slices I have been using (mainly because they do not oil off as much as other retail brands available to me) weigh about 25 ounces for 14 slices. That is less than 2 grams per slice. By my estimation, the weight of a typical unbaked HRI pepperoni clone pizza is around 850 grams. So, one pepperoni slice is minuscule by comparison. The greater effect, although also possibly harmless in most cases, would be the delay in baking the pizza if, for example, you let the pizza sit around for too long to give the single pepperoni slice time to warm up. A single slice of pepperoni is so thin that even if added to the pizza while frozen would come to temperature very quickly and not affect the pizza in any way that you could detect.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining that the results with using one slice less of pepperoni would be minuscule in the typical unbaked HRI clone pizza.  I can understand the greater affect might be if I left that pizza dressed sit around too long.  The pizza was sitting on the dark disk dressed for about 4 minutes, or a little longer, until I fooled around getting that extra slice and trying to warm it up.  I should have forgotten about that extra slice like Steve suggested.  I also didnít think about trying to add the slice of pepperoni frozen.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2013, 02:51:23 PM
Of course my test dough ball was ovefermented.  Until I ran to our local Country Store and purchased the John F. Martin LMPS mozzarella and purchased other things I needed the dough ball had developed a big bubble on the top of the dough ball.  I just pinched the bubbles until they went down in a couple of places. The John F. Martin LMPS mozzarella I purchased in one slice cut off from a bigger loaf of mozzarella and then grated it myself.  I also purchased a small package of the same mozzarella already shedded to try at another time.  I left the dough ball in the fridge until I was ready to roll the dough ball out.  I used my wooden peel again to roll the dough on and it rolled out very easily again.  I also used the docker to dock the skin right on the wooden peel.  The temperature in my kitchen when I was rolling out the dough and letting the skin on the dark disk was 79 degrees F.  The skin went into the oven on the dark disk at 1:30 PM.   

I saw the skin wanted to make dimples again in the outside diameter of the dark disk after it sat for a little.  I left the skin sit at room temperature for 15 minutes before dressing it.  The pre-bake of the skin was about 4 minutes at about 490 degrees F and the bake of the dressed pizza was at about 20 minutes at 435 degrees F.  I did use the next higher oven rack this time to do the bake.

The crumb and rim of the pizza this time was more tender than my other attempts and I liked that very much.  There was a little bit of flakiness, but that certain right flakines is still eluding me.  The crust did taste good, but I found it odd that the dough ball didnít have the yeasty smell like it did in my last attempt with IDY.  The center slices didnít have much of any gum lines.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2013, 02:54:03 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2013, 02:57:02 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2013, 02:59:40 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 11, 2013, 07:18:15 PM
I know it doesn't have the flakiness we are looking for Norma but that last pizza of yours looks really, really good. Especially how you formed the outer rim fluted crust and the browning on it...it's beautiful. I would say you definitely have the time and temp down now. Nice work.  :chef:

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2013, 07:50:42 PM
I know it doesn't have the flakiness we are looking for Norma but that last pizza of yours looks really, really good. Especially how you formed the outer rim fluted crust and the browning on it...it's beautiful. I would say you definitely have the time and temp down now. Nice work.  :chef:

Bob

Bob,

Thanks for your kind comments!  My daughter and mother like this attempt the best so far.  That dang flakiness is still driving me crazy on how to achieve it.  :-D I am also wondering why the outside edges of the skin get those dimples when the skin sits on the disk.   

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on April 12, 2013, 12:51:54 AM
wow Norma!  another awesome effort!! looks delicious!  thanks for all the pics and excellent documentation of your trials.  that takes a lot of effort! i really appreciate all you do.  i got those same bumps i think because i was fluting the rim on the disc and i must have put some downward pressure on the skin while forming it. so they only showed up on the edge. thanks again!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 12, 2013, 07:17:52 AM
Norma,

I agree with Bob and Terry. I think you did a terrific job. The fluted rim held up, the finished pizza size was on the money, and the crust coloration was almost perfect. Next time, if there is a next time, you might try repeating the pizza but do not use a pre-bake. Do everything the same but go from proofing the skin on the disk (about 15 minutes) and then dressing and baking the pizza. That is the method that the articles say is used in HRI's pizzerias. I would use 425 degrees F or thereabouts for baking the pizza, and use the middle of the oven, as I have been doing to keep the bottom of the crust from browning up to fast. The long, slow bake should also help create a crispier crust. If you are a fan of sausage, you might try a pepperoni and sausage pizza. That combination should produce a very satisfying pizza in my opinion. I say that even though the crust may not be overly flaky. But I can pretty much assure you that you, and Mom as well, will like that pizza better than an HRI frozen pizza. I have already seen that from the pizzas I have made as part of my experimentation. Moreover, if you have leftovers, I think you will find that the crust will become more crunchy after reheating the party cut squares. If you want suggestions on quantities of cheese and toppings to use, let me know.

I agree with Terry that the dimpling at the outer edges of the pizza was most likely the result of applying pressure to the outer edge of the skin while forming the fluted rim. That can happen to an HRI skin also, as you can see from the bottom crust photo in the Slice article at http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html#continued (http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html#continued). While you are at it, note the similarity of the bottom crust coloration of your pizza to what the Slice photo shows. The key thing is to keep the skin from getting too soft such that it sinks into the holes in the disk (or perforated cutter pan, if used).

Like you, I have never had a real HRI pizza, but I see no reason why you can't get something of comparable quality out of your home oven. I think more work needs to be done on the dough formulation but the good news in my opinion is that you can get satisfactory results even when the dough has endured a long fermentation.

Peter

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 12, 2013, 08:10:56 AM
I did add the ADY in dry form.  That was the big pack of Red Start ADY I purchased recently and had in the fridge since I opened it.  I added the ADY and salt after my dough looked mixed well.  I also used the sequence of flour-water-drizzled in corn oil-dry ADY-salt.  My fridge was probably opened and shut a lot more than yours was too.  My daughter and I are always taking something out of the fridge for us or the animals. 

Itís good to hear your test dough is behaving better than mine.  Will be interested to hear your results.
Norma,

To give you an update on my latest HRI clone dough experiment, the latest HRI clone dough (with 51% hydration, 2.5% dry ADY, 2% salt, and 19% corn oil) increased in volume by about 11% after 9 hours of cold fermentation, about 68% after 19 hours, 95% after 24 hours, and by about 126% after 32 hours. Had I not spent a good part of yesterday working on my taxes, I might have used the dough to make a pizza. But, at the same time, I wanted to see how the dough would hold up through today. This morning, after a total elapsed time of 43 hours,  the dough is still at 126%, although I think it rose to about 150% and fell back to 126%. Yet the dough has been firm to the touch at all times. I don't know if HRI is using dry ADY to make its dough but it appears to be a good way to control the fermentation of the dough while adding more flavor. I think my next experiment will be to use less ADY to see what effect that has on the fermentation. That might allow for even better control of the fermentation process.

As I mentioned earlier, I have strong suspicions that HRI does not use the same dough production and management in its frozen pizza plants as it uses in its pizzerias. HRI insists that it uses the same recipes in its frozen pizza plants as it uses in its pizzerias. That is certainly true as to the cheese, sauce and toppings (like sausage and pepperoni) but the term "recipe" as applied to the dough is a very broad and loose term that can mean a lot of different things. For example, it can mean that the same ingredients are used (i.e., wheat flour, water, corn oil, yeast, salt), but that the amounts can be different, and also that the dough preparation and management can be different. If I am correct on this point, HRI may be using its plants to make two dough formulations, one for its frozen pizzas and one for its pizzerias. The facility used to make the dough for its pizzerias would be separate from the facilities used to make the frozen pizzas so that the pizzeria dough will be free of the governmental regulations and inspection that apply to the frozen pizza side of the business. In my research, I looked for signs that HRI was using cold fermentation of its dough for its frozen pizzas but I could not find anything to suggest that. Because of its huge volumes in the frozen pizza plants, I think that HRI is using large amounts of yeast consistent with the ingredients and quantities recited on its packaging materials for its frozen pizzas, along with modest fermentation times at ambient temperatures, most likely in a controled environment to assure consistent performance and quality, to produce the dough for its frozen pizzas.

Peter

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2013, 08:23:15 AM
wow Norma!  another awesome effort!! looks delicious!  thanks for all the pics and excellent documentation of your trials.  that takes a lot of effort! i really appreciate all you do.  i got those same bumps i think because i was fluting the rim on the disc and i must have put some downward pressure on the skin while forming it. so they only showed up on the edge. thanks again!!

Terry,

Thanks for your kind comments! 

Interesting to hear that you got the same bumps while you were fluting on the disk.  I wonder why I got them on the edges when I used the dough cold right out of the fridge and fluted right on my wooden peel.  I would have thought the center would have gotten those bumps before the outside rim would.  The skin docked and fluted on my wooden peel easily slid off the wooden peel onto the dark disk.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2013, 08:38:47 AM
Norma,

I agree with Bob and Terry. I think you did a terrific job. The fluted rim held up, the finished pizza size was on the money, and the crust coloration was almost perfect. Next time, if there is a next time, you might try repeating the pizza but do not use a pre-bake. Do everything the same but go from proofing the skin on the disk (about 15 minutes) and then dressing and baking the pizza. That is the method that the articles say is used in HRI's pizzerias. I would use 425 degrees F or thereabouts for baking the pizza, and use the middle of the oven, as I have been doing to keep the bottom of the crust from browning up to fast. The long, slow bake should also help create a crispier crust. If you are a fan of sausage, you might try a pepperoni and sausage pizza. That combination should produce a very satisfying pizza in my opinion. I say that even though the crust may not be overly flaky. But I can pretty much assure you that you, and Mom as well, will like that pizza better than an HRI frozen pizza. I have already seen that from the pizzas I have made as part of my experimentation. Moreover, if you have leftovers, I think you will find that the crust will become more crunchy after reheating the party cut squares. If you want suggestions on quantities of cheese and toppings to use, let me know.

I agree with Terry that the dimpling at the outer edges of the pizza was most likely the result of applying pressure to the outer edge of the skin while forming the fluted rim. That can happen to an HRI skin also, as you can see from the bottom crust photo in the Slice article at http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html#continued (http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html#continued). While you are at it, note the similarity of the bottom crust coloration of your pizza to what the Slice photo shows. The key thing is to keep the skin from getting too soft such that it sinks into the holes in the disk (or perforated cutter pan, if used).

Like you, I have never had a real HRI pizza, but I see no reason why you can't get something of comparable quality out of your home oven. I think more work needs to be done on the dough formulation but the good news in my opinion is that you can get satisfactory results even when the dough has endured a long fermentation.

Peter

Peter,

There will be a next time.  I am always curious about what can be done, but sometimes I get a little discouraged if something doesnít go right.  I then think about what I might have done wrong and with your help in figuring out what I might have done wrong usually give it another try.

Thanks for telling me what to try the next time.  I can see why a long, slow bake might create a crisper crust.  I am a fan of sausage and think I still have some of Bobís favorite kind of sausage frozen in my freezer.   I probably wonít make another attempt until next week, but yes I would like some suggestions of quantities of cheese and toppings to use. 

Thanks for referencing the Slice article again for a look at the bottom crust photo.  I see the bottom crust coloration.  That slice sure looks crisper than my bottom crust did.

What kind of work do you think needs done on the dough formulation?  After your experimental HRI pizza will you know more?

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2013, 08:57:19 AM
Norma,

To give you an update on my latest HRI clone dough experiment, the latest HRI clone dough (with 51% hydration, 2.5% dry ADY, 2% salt, and 19% corn oil) increased in volume by about 11% after 9 hours of cold fermentation, about 68% after 19 hours, 95% after 24 hours, and by about 126% after 32 hours. Had I not spent a good part of yesterday working on my taxes, I might have used the dough to make a pizza. But, at the same time, I wanted to see how the dough would hold up through today. This morning, after a total elapsed time of 43 hours,  the dough is still at 126%, although I think it rose to about 150% and fell back to 126%. Yet the dough has been firm to the touch at all times. I don't know if HRI is using dry ADY to make its dough but it appears to be a good way to control the fermentation of the dough while adding more flavor. I think my next experiment will be to use less ADY to see what effect that has on the fermentation. That might allow for even better control of the fermentation process.

As I mentioned earlier, I have strong suspicions that HRI does not use the same dough production and management in its frozen pizza plants as it uses in its pizzerias. HRI insists that it uses the same recipes in its frozen pizza plants as it uses in its pizzerias. That is certainly true as to the cheese, sauce and toppings (like sausage and pepperoni) but the term "recipe" as applied to the dough is a very broad and loose term that can mean a lot of different things. For example, it can mean that the same ingredients are used (i.e., wheat flour, water, corn oil, yeast, salt), but that the amounts can be different, and also that the dough preparation and management can be different. If I am correct on this point, HRI may be using its plants to make two dough formulations, one for its frozen pizzas and one for its pizzerias. The facility used to make the dough for its pizzerias would be separate from the facilities used to make the frozen pizzas so that the pizzeria dough will be free of the governmental regulations and inspection that apply to the frozen pizza side of the business. In my research, I looked for signs that HRI was using cold fermentation of its dough for its frozen pizzas but I could not find anything to suggest that. Because of its huge volumes in the frozen pizza plants, I think that HRI is using large amounts of yeast consistent with the ingredients and quantities recited on its packaging materials for its frozen pizzas, along with modest fermentation times at ambient temperatures, most likely in a controled environment to assure consistent performance and quality, to produce the dough for its frozen pizzas.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for giving an update on your latest HRI clone dough experiment.  Your clone dough sure behaved better than mine.  Interesting to hear your dough ball has remained firm to the touch at all times. 

I recall that you did mention earlier that you have strong suspicions that HRI does not use the same dough production and management in its frozen pizza plants as it uses in its pizzerias.  Interesting to hear that the ďrecipeĒ as applied to the dough for HRI pizzerias might be different in terms of dough preparation and management.  I didnít think about HRI using a separate facilities at the same place to make the dough so it is free from governmental regulations and inspections, such as applies to the frozen pizza side of the business.  I can understand that it wouldnít be feasible to use to use the same fermentation methods for its frozen HRI pizzas.

Do you know what differences that could be if a sheeter versus a rolling pin is used in the crust texture?  I have wondered about that. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 12, 2013, 09:52:53 AM
Norma,

I am a fan of sausage and think I still have some of Bobís favorite kind of sausage frozen in my freezer.   I probably wonít make another attempt until next week, but yes I would like some suggestions of quantities of cheese and toppings to use.
I am not sure which Premio sausage you have but the last time I used two links of the Johnsonville Hot sausage. From a weight standpoint, I wanted to use about 7 ounces of sausage. The sausage out of the two Johnsonville links, with some added fennel seeds and black pepper (Craig's recommended modifications), came to 7.3 ounces. For the low moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese, I would use around 6-7 ounces (diced if you want to be true to the HRI method). For the pepperoni, I would use 14 slices, but you can add more slices if you'd like and maybe back off a bit on the sausage to offset. You can also add some diced green peppers if you'd like. The objective is to keep the total weight in line with what HRI uses in making its frozen pizzas. As with the other HRI clones, I would use a 15-ounce dough ball, or maybe one that is a bit less to allow for the use of bench flour if needed at the time the dough ball is formed into a skin. For the sauce, I would use around 4 ounces, again to keep the total weight in check. As you might expect, the more things that are on the pizza, the longer it will take to bake it, and you may not end up with the same crust characteristics as one with fewer toppings. You might also want to keep an oven rack near the top of the oven in case you find a need to move the pizza to that rack position to get more top heat to brown the cheese more if desired. That is what I do.

What kind of work do you think needs done on the dough formulation?  After your experimental HRI pizza will you know more?
I am thinking along the lines of using less ADY, also in dry form but still more than 2%, and maybe increasing the formula hydration back to around 53%, which is what I took away from my analysis of the HRI Nutrition Facts. Essentially what I'd like to see is if it is possible to come up with a dough that will ferment sufficiently after a day or two yet be firm enough to allow a good fluted, upstanding rim to be formed and for the skin not to sink into the holes in the disk (or cutter pan). If that result does not materialize, then I would be inclined to lower the hydration again. But, to date, I am liking the idea of using dry ADY because of the way it helps slow down the rate of fermentation so that the dough can be better managed. But even when it does not behave that way, as you discovered, the dough is still usable. I don't have to tell you how large yeast quantities pose their own set of challenges, as you know from your work with the Buddy's clones. I am just trying to tame a wild horse.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 12, 2013, 10:14:00 AM
Do you know what differences that could be if a sheeter versus a rolling pin is used in the crust texture?  I have wondered about that. 
Norma,

As I understand it, the term "sheeter" technically refers to a machine that forms a continuous sheet from which individual skins are cut, and that a machine that forms a skin from a dough ball is called a "roller".  Either way, I would say that a sheeter or roller is a perhaps a more efficient way of forming a skin than a rolling pin in a home setting. But either machine would certainly be a much better way of forming a skin if it were to be laminated, as DNA Dan has pointed out many times before on the forum.

The distinction is much greater between a dough press and a sheeter or roller (or rolling pin) because of the way that the dough press affects the cell structure of the skin. A good article that discusses the differences is one by Tom Lehmann at http://www.pmq.com/July-August-2005/In-Lehmanns-Terms/ (http://www.pmq.com/July-August-2005/In-Lehmanns-Terms/). These differences gave me pause to wonder whether a large tortilla press might be a better way to form a skin than using a rolling pin.

BTW, recently I looked at several videos on dough presses from which I learned that cold dough balls can be used with certain hot dough presses. I wondered about that after I had suggested forming the HRI clone skins from dough that was cold rather than warmed up at room temperature for an hour or so.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2013, 10:41:04 AM
Norma,
I am not sure which Premio sausage you have but the last time I used two links of the Johnsonville Hot sausage. From a weight standpoint, I wanted to use about 7 ounces of sausage. The sausage out of the two Johnsonville links, with some added fennel seeds and black pepper (Craig's recommended modifications), came to 7.3 ounces. For the low moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese, I would use around 6-7 ounces (diced if you want to be true to the HRI method). For the pepperoni, I would use 14 slices, but you can add more slices if you'd like and maybe back off a bit on the sausage to offset. You can also add some diced green peppers if you'd like. The objective is to keep the total weight in line with what HRI uses in making its frozen pizzas. As with the other HRI clones, I would use a 15-ounce dough ball, or maybe one that is a bit less to allow for the use of bench flour if needed at the time the dough ball is formed into a skin. For the sauce, I would use around 4 ounces, again to keep the total weight in check. As you might expect, the more things that are on the pizza, the longer it will take to bake it, and you may not end up with the same crust characteristics as one with fewer toppings. You might also want to keep an oven rack near the top of the oven in case you find a need to move the pizza to that rack position to get more top heat to brown the cheese more if desired. That is what I do.
I am thinking along the lines of using less ADY, also in dry form but still more than 2%, and maybe increasing the formula hydration back to around 53%, which is what I took away from my analysis of the HRI Nutrition Facts. Essentially what I'd like to see is if it is possible to come up with a dough that will ferment sufficiently after a day or two yet be firm enough to allow a good fluted, upstanding rim to be formed and for the skin not to sink into the holes in the disk (or cutter pan). If that result does not materialize, then I would be inclined to lower the hydration again. But, to date, I am liking the idea of using dry ADY because of the way it helps slow down the rate of fermentation so that the dough can be better managed. But even when it does not behave that way, as you discovered, the dough is still usable. I don't have to tell you how large yeast quantities pose their own set of challenges, as you know from your work with the Buddy's clones. I am just trying to tame a wild horse.

Peter

Peter,

The Premio sausage I have is the Sweet Italian sausage that I posted a picture of at Reply http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242171.html#msg242171 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242171.html#msg242171)


I also think I have some Johnsville sausage, but I would need to dig in my freezer to see if I still have any left.  I have used Craigís recipe with Johnsonville sausage and liked it very much.  Thanks for posting what amounts of toppings to try with sausage.  I also like green peppers.  I can understand that if more toppings are used that the bake time will be longer.  Thanks for telling me to keep a top rack on my oven also in case there is a need to move the pizza up to get the cheese to brown better.

Thanks also for telling me what lines you are thinking about for the next formulation.  I am also liking the use of dry ADY and I want to see if I can manage the dough ball better the next time.  I agree with you that when using a large yeast amount it poses its own set of challenges.  I have to chuckle when you posted that is it like trying to tame a wild horse.  :-D  I agree, and did see those set challenges with the Buddyís clone dough, until you helped me tame it.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2013, 10:58:46 AM
Norma,

As I understand it, the term "sheeter" technically refers to a machine that forms a continuous sheet from which individual skins are cut, and that a machine that forms a skin from a dough ball is called a "roller".  Either way, I would say that a sheeter or roller is a perhaps a more efficient way of forming a skin than a rolling pin in a home setting. But either machine would certainly be a much better way of forming a skin if it were to be laminated, as DNA Dan has pointed out many times before on the forum.

The distinction is much greater between a dough press and a sheeter or roller (or rolling pin) because of the way that the dough press affects the cell structure of the skin. A good article that discusses the differences is one by Tom Lehmann at http://www.pmq.com/July-August-2005/In-Lehmanns-Terms/ (http://www.pmq.com/July-August-2005/In-Lehmanns-Terms/). These differences gave me pause to wonder whether a large tortilla press might be a better way to form a skin than using a rolling pin.

BTW, recently I looked at several videos on dough presses from which I learned that cold dough balls can be used with certain hot dough presses. I wondered about that after I had suggested forming the HRI clone skins from dough that was cold rather than warmed up at room temperature for an hour or so.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining what you understand about the terms ďsheeterĒ and ďrollerĒ.  I do recall what DNA Dan and fazzari posted about forming skins using the laminated method. 

Thanks for linking the good article from Tom Lehmann.  I donít know if a large tortilla press might be a better way to form the skin than using a rolling pin, but that might work.  I did have one of those large tortilla presses, but sold it at a garage sale a number of years ago.  I also would have liked to have tried that hot dough press I sold. 

I really donít think I am ready to attempt to use a dough ball that is warmed up yet.  I saw the challenge it might cause in those bumps in the bottom skin even when I used the cold dough ball to form into a skin by rolling. That skin warmed up pretty fast while rolling, even though I didnít need to roll much.  Since you posted before that those hot dough presses can change the skin, it doesnít seem possible that would work for me.  Maybe you want to try that.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 12, 2013, 11:17:15 AM
Norma,

I found that using a rolling pin isn't really necessary, and that the skin can be formed completely by hand. The advantage of the rolling pin, like the roller that HRI used in the early days, is that the skin has a uniform thickness.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2013, 11:48:33 AM
Norma,

I found that using a rolling pin isn't really necessary, and that the skin can be formed completely by hand. The advantage of the rolling pin, like the roller that HRI used in the early days, is that the skin has a uniform thickness.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for posting that using a rolling pin isnít really necessary, but a rolling pin is good to form a skin with a uniform thickness.  I thought a few of my attempted doughs could be stretched by hand, but didnít want to try that because I was unsure on what kind of results I would get.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 12, 2013, 02:55:43 PM
I didn't plan to drop out of this testing just when it was getting very interesting but a severe case of what I'm assuming is "stomach flu" had me driving the porcelain bus more often than the skinniest model on a Paris runway. Hope to be able to contribute when pizza starts to sound good again. Hopefully, in a few days.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 12, 2013, 05:41:39 PM
I didn't plan to drop out of this testing just when it was getting very interesting but a severe case of what I'm assuming is "stomach flu" had me driving the porcelain bus more often than the skinniest model on a Paris runway. Hope to be able to contribute when pizza starts to sound good again. Hopefully, in a few days.
Ditto. I just got back from the doctors office....Bronchitis.  >:(
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 13, 2013, 11:19:39 AM
Norma,

The results are in for my latest HRI clone dough experiment. To recapitulate, this is the dough with Gold Medal unbleached Aleppo's flour, 51% hydration, 2.5% ADY (used in dry form), 2% salt, and 19% corn oil.

I used the dough yesterday after about two days of cold fermentation. At that point, based on the poppy seed spacing, the dough had expanded in volume by about 126%. That was at about the same point as it was a day before although, as I noted before, it had risen more than that at one point but fell back to its final value of 126%. At all times the dough was firm to the touch even though I could see from the bubbling at the bottom and sides of my glass storage container that there had been a lot of fermentation. Forming the dough into a skin was very easy. However, this time I did not use a rolling pin. I formed the skin entirely by hand. The fluted rim formed easily and it remained upstanding during the 15 minutes that the skin (docked) proofed on my perforated disk. To further simulate the methods used in HRI's pizzerias, I dressed and baked the pizza right after the 15-minute proof period. In other words, I did not pre-bake the crust.

I intentionally loaded up the pizza with mozzarella cheese (diced low moisture, part-skim Precious mozzarella cheese), sauce and toppings in order to see how that would affect the bake. In this case, the toppings were sausage (modified Johnsonville Hot sausage), pepperoni (14 slices, as usual), and diced green peppers. The total unbaked pizza weight was 35.63 ounces. As it turned out, that weight posed some problems baking the pizza in my home oven. I started by baking the pizza in the middle rack position of my oven at 425 degrees F. It remained there for about 12 minutes. The bottom crust achieved the desired color in some places but not as much in the middle. To get more top heat to cook and slightly brown the cheese, I moved the pizza to the topmost oven rack position for about another minute and a half. This bake protocol reminded me of how a home oven is not a conveyor oven. It may well turn out that to bake an HRI clone pizza with a lot of things on it in my home oven, it may be necessary to use a pre-bake of the crust, just as you did with your last HRI clone. But, this is how we learn.

The finished baked weight of the pizza was 33.16 ounces. That represented a loss during baking of almost 7%. Had I used a higher oven temperature and a longer bake, I am sure that the losses would have been greater.

Overall, I thought that the pizza turned out very well. However, the rim was not as distinct as your last pizza. I would say that it looked more like the crust as shown in the flicker.com website that your referenced recently at A delicious thin crust Chicago style pizza topped with sausage, Pepperoni, and Green Peppers. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eddie-chicago-railfan/3464454594/#). This leads me to believe that not all of the pizzas baked in HRI's pizzerias have the distinct fluted rim. This does not come as a surprise. The reality is that commercial operations have quite wide variations in the pizzas they produce. In my case, the pizza had a nice crunchy rim and adjoining parts but was softer in the middle, no doubt because of a slight underbaking. I concluded that I much preferred the rim of my pizza over the hard rims of the HRI frozen pizzas that I previously baked. As for the flakiness characteristic, I can't say that I detected much in the way of flakiness in the finished crust. Again, this may be a baking issue.

Out of curiosity, after I was done making the pizza, I estimated what it cost me to make it. Some of the items I used to make the pizza had been purchased on sale but the total cost was around $4.65. That is for a 12" pizza size (11.5" after baking). I checked with an HRI menu, and the same size pizza with the same toppings pizza sold in its pizzerias would have cost $18.50, or almost four times the cost of my pizza. However, it may well be that HRI uses more toppings on its store pizzas than on its frozen pizzas. Out of necessity, we have been using the HRI frozen pizza model (based on the related Nutrition Facts), not the one used in its pizzerias, of which we know very little. But, that said, I think trying to emulate the HRI pizzeria pizzas is the better course to take.

Oven the ensuing days, as I work my way through the leftovers, I will think about what changes to try next. I may lower the hydration a bit and I might try to tame the yeast a bit more so that it can work in a one to three day cold fermentation window without overfermenting. There is no assurance that this will cure all ills. It may well turn out the the baking protocol is more important. The final point I want to leave with everyone is that the dough formulations that you and I and Bob have been testing recently can result in some very good pizzas even if they aren't exact or perfect clones of HRI's pizzas. They will also be less costly than the HRI frozen pizzas, albeit at the loss of convenience of the frozen versions.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 13, 2013, 12:56:38 PM
Norma,

The results are in for my latest HRI clone dough experiment. To recapitulate, this is the dough with Gold Medal unbleached Aleppo's flour, 51% hydration, 2.5% ADY (used in dry form), 2% salt, and 19% corn oil.

I used the dough yesterday after about two days of cold fermentation. At that point, based on the poppy seed spacing, the dough had expanded in volume by about 126%. That was at about the same point as it was a day before although, as I noted before, it had risen more than that at one point but fell back to its final value of 126%. At all times the dough was firm to the touch even though I could see from the bubbling at the bottom and sides of my glass storage container that there had been a lot of fermentation. Forming the dough into a skin was very easy. However, this time I did not use a rolling pin. I formed the skin entirely by hand. The fluted rim formed easily and it remained upstanding during the 15 minutes that the skin (docked) proofed on my perforated disk. To further simulate the methods used in HRI's pizzerias, I dressed and baked the pizza right after the 15-minute proof period. In other words, I did not pre-bake the crust.

I intentionally loaded up the pizza with mozzarella cheese (diced low moisture, part-skim Precious mozzarella cheese), sauce and toppings in order to see how that would affect the bake. In this case, the toppings were sausage (modified Johnsonville Hot sausage), pepperoni (14 slices, as usual), and diced green peppers. The total unbaked pizza weight was 35.63 ounces. As it turned out, that weight posed some problems baking the pizza in my home oven. I started by baking the pizza in the middle rack position of my oven at 425 degrees F. It remained there for about 12 minutes. The bottom crust achieved the desired color in some places but not as much in the middle. To get more top heat to cook and slightly brown the cheese, I moved the pizza to the topmost oven rack position for about another minute and a half. This bake protocol reminded me of how a home oven is not a conveyor oven. It may well turn out that to bake an HRI clone pizza with a lot of things on it in my home oven, it may be necessary to use a pre-bake of the crust, just as you did with your last HRI clone. But, this is how we learn.

The finished baked weight of the pizza was 33.16 ounces. That represented a loss during baking of almost 7%. Had I used a higher oven temperature and a longer bake, I am sure that the losses would have been greater.

Overall, I thought that the pizza turned out very well. However, the rim was not as distinct as your last pizza. I would say that it looked more like the crust as shown in the flicker.com website that your referenced recently at A delicious thin crust Chicago style pizza topped with sausage, Pepperoni, and Green Peppers. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eddie-chicago-railfan/3464454594/#). This leads me to believe that not all of the pizzas baked in HRI's pizzerias have the distinct fluted rim. This does not come as a surprise. The reality is that commercial operations have quite wide variations in the pizzas they produce. In my case, the pizza had a nice crunchy rim and adjoining parts but was softer in the middle, no doubt because of a slight underbaking. I concluded that I much preferred the rim of my pizza over the hard rims of the HRI frozen pizzas that I previously baked. As for the flakiness characteristic, I can't say that I detected much in the way of flakiness in the finished crust. Again, this may be a baking issue.

Out of curiosity, after I was done making the pizza, I estimated what it cost me to make it. Some of the items I used to make the pizza had been purchased on sale but the total cost was around $4.65. That is for a 12" pizza size (11.5" after baking). I checked with an HRI menu, and the same size pizza with the same toppings pizza sold in its pizzerias would have cost $18.50, or almost four times the cost of my pizza. However, it may well be that HRI uses more toppings on its store pizzas than on its frozen pizzas. Out of necessity, we have been using the HRI frozen pizza model (based on the related Nutrition Facts), not the one used in its pizzerias, of which we know very little. But, that said, I think trying to emulate the HRI pizzeria pizzas is the better course to take.

Oven the ensuing days, as I work my way through the leftovers, I will think about what changes to try next. I may lower the hydration a bit and I might try to tame the yeast a bit more so that it can work in a one to three day cold fermentation window without overfermenting. There is no assurance that this will cure all ills. It may well turn out the the baking protocol is more important. The final point I want to leave with everyone is that the dough formulations that you and I and Bob have been testing recently can result in some very good pizzas even if they aren't exact or perfect clones of HRI's pizzas. They will also be less costly than the HRI frozen pizzas, albeit at the loss of convenience of the frozen versions.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for posting your results for your latest HRI clone experiment with your tasty results.

I wonder why the dough had risen more at one point, but fell back.  What can do that to a dough?  I was thinking about that when you posted before.  I donít think I have ever seen that in any doughs I have made, unless the dough ball was almost unusable.  Of course by that time the dough was somewhat sticky, but since you posted that your dough formed well into a skin, that sure wouldnít be the case.  How did you flatten your dough ball to be able to start forming the skin? 

I find it interesting that you formed the skin entirely by hand and did not pre-bake the crust.  That was a good move in the direction towards an HRI pizza.

I know a home oven is not a conveyor oven.  I wonder what would happen if I try another attempt and just bake on the stone like HRI did before they got their conveyor ovens.  I also had to really watch some of my attempts in the bake part to make sure I baked as best as my home oven could.  My home oven isnít very accurate either in temperature, so it is hard to know what to do to get the best bake.  I also know that this is how we learn, just like you posted.

I think if your rim looked that photo you referenced it looked good.  I agree with you too, that I also preferred the rim of my pizza better than any of the HRI frozen pizzas I tried so far.

The price of your HRI clone pizza sure was a lot cheaper than purchasing a real HRI pizza. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 14, 2013, 08:16:18 AM
I wonder why the dough had risen more at one point, but fell back.  What can do that to a dough?  I was thinking about that when you posted before.  I donít think I have ever seen that in any doughs I have made, unless the dough ball was almost unusable.  Of course by that time the dough was somewhat sticky, but since you posted that your dough formed well into a skin, that sure wouldnít be the case.  How did you flatten your dough ball to be able to start forming the skin?
Norma,

That's a good question. It may take more experiments to answer that question but thus far my experience has been that the dough will expand but it doesn't go wild, and it will remain firm to the touch for a couple of days. Even when the dough recedes, as evidenced by the spacing of the poppy seeds narrowing rather than widening, the narrowing is slight and almost not noticeable. For example, the spacing might go from 1 5/16" to 1 3/16". A lot also depends on the temperature of the dough during fermentation. The best time to make the dough would be in the evening since the dough will remain unperturbed during the evening hours. That is why many pizza operators make their dough at night when there are no workers around going in and out of their coolers. I also learned from a prior Papa John's clone experiment how a cold fermentation environment can almost stop the yeast dead in its tracks. See, for example, Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308/topicseen.html#msg64308 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308/topicseen.html#msg64308). In that case, I used only a small amount of ADY (0.30%) but it was in dry form. Had I used more yeast I am certain that there would have been more fermentation but the coldness of the refrigerator would have mitigated some of the rise.

On the matter of forming the skin by hand, I simple dipped the dough ball in flour to coat it, flattened it with the palm of my hand, and then pressed the flattened dough ball with my fingers starting at the center and working outwardly. That made it easier than using a rolling pin to get an almost perfectly round skin of about 12". The dough is very malleable and pretty much responds to what you want it to do.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 14, 2013, 10:13:57 AM
Norma,

That's a good question. It may take more experiments to answer that question but thus far my experience has been that the dough will expand but it doesn't go wild, and it will remain firm to the touch for a couple of days. Even when the dough recedes, as evidenced by the spacing of the poppy seeds narrowing rather than widening, the narrowing is slight and almost not noticeable. For example, the spacing might go from 1 5/16" to 1 3/16". A lot also depends on the temperature of the dough during fermentation. The best time to make the dough would be in the evening since the dough will remain unperturbed during the evening hours. That is why many pizza operators make their dough at night when there are no workers around going in and out of their coolers. I also learned from a prior Papa John's clone experiment how a cold fermentation environment can almost stop the yeast dead in its tracks. See, for example, Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308/topicseen.html#msg64308 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308/topicseen.html#msg64308). In that case, I used only a small amount of ADY (0.30%) but it was in dry form. Had I used more yeast I am certain that there would have been more fermentation but the coldness of the refrigerator would have mitigated some of the rise.

On the matter of forming the skin by hand, I simple dipped the dough ball in flour to coat it, flattened it with the palm of my hand, and then pressed the flattened dough ball with my fingers starting at the center and working outwardly. That made it easier than using a rolling pin to get an almost perfectly round skin of about 12". The dough is very malleable and pretty much responds to what you want it to do.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for explaining more why your dough receded and the little amount that it did recede.  I can understand why the best time to make the dough would be in the evening since the dough then remains undisturbed until the next day.  Thanks also for the link to where you almost stopped the yeast in its tracks.  That was an interesting read that I donít recall reading before.  I think anyone that wants to try a HRI clone dough will learn some interesting things about how a high oil dough with high amounts of ADY or IDY added later behaves. 

I know I have some problems in getting a perfectly round skin when using a rolling pin.  I might try your method the next time.  Thanks for explaining what you did.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 14, 2013, 02:18:09 PM
Peter,
I'll be starting another try at a HRI pie tomorrow evening for a two day stint in the 'fridge. I'd appreciate any thoughts you might have on the subject. I'm willing to experiment with hydration and/or yeast. I have both IDY and ADY. I'm out of sausage so unless I get some soon, it'll be a pepperoni pizza.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 15, 2013, 09:33:47 AM
Jay,

I think I would go with 50% hydration, 2.1% dry ADY (that is, no prehydration), 2% salt and 19% corn oil. That is the formulation that I planned to try next. I would look for a two-day cold fermentation. I would prepare the skin in the manner that I previously suggested to Norma, and that she used for her last HRI clone. That is, I would prepare the skin on a floured wooden peel (using a rolling pin or by hand); after forming the skin to 12", dock it while still on the peel; load the docked skin onto the carrier (either a dark anodized perforated disk or cutter pan); form the fluted rim (the final diameter of the fluted skin should be about 11 1/2"); and proof the skin for about 15 minutes at room temperature. If needed or desired, you can reform the fluted rim after the proof period if it droops and leans one way or the other. I am hoping that the reduced hydration and the use of less ADY, along with the two-day cold fermentation, translates into a sturdy skin with an upstanding fluted rim and without dimples.

If you plan to go light on the cheese and toppings, you might dress the pizza in the usual manner and bake it at about 425-450 degrees F until the crust at the rim and bottom is of the desired degree of browning. If you plan to use a lot of cheese and toppings, you might get better results pre-baking the skin until it turns a very light brown color (basically a hint of gold), and then dress and finish the bake. Ovens vary so you may have to decide which oven rack position to use and how long to bake the pizza. In my oven, and especially if I use a lot of cheese and toppings, I find it necessary to move the pizza to a higher oven rack position to get more top heat to melt and slightly brown the cheese.

If you need any help on the amounts of cheese, sauce and toppings to use for the pizza you would like to make, I think I can give you those numbers.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: pythonic on April 15, 2013, 02:48:24 PM
I swear this thread is becoming the main event around here.  Sure wish Peter and Norma could try a frozen pizza from Giordanos and put the same effort into duplicating that masterpiece.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 15, 2013, 04:06:24 PM
Peter,
About 1 or two hours from now I'll make up the dough using these figures. If you have any thoughts or changes, I'll check back about 5:30 PM EDT.
Flour (100%):
Water (50%):
ADY (2.1%):
Salt (2.0%):
Corn Oil (19%):
Total (173.1%):
249.16 g  |  8.79 oz | 0.55 lbs
124.58 g  |  4.39 oz | 0.27 lbs
5.23 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.38 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
4.98 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.89 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
47.34 g | 1.67 oz | 0.1 lbs | 10.52 tsp | 3.51 tbsp
431.3 g | 15.21 oz | 0.95 lbs | TF = 0.1345169
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 15, 2013, 04:49:34 PM
Jay,

The numbers are correct. Just be sure to scale the finished dough ball to 15 ounces. That weight might increase a bit again if you find it necessary to use bench flour when time comes to form the skin.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on April 15, 2013, 06:23:00 PM
I swear this thread is becoming the main event around here.  Sure wish Peter and Norma could try a frozen pizza from Giordanos and put the same effort into duplicating that masterpiece.

Have you tried any of the Giordano's clone recipes here?  I was pretty happy with the one I made (and posted about).  I think the homemade versions surpass Giordano's, which is pretty bland, IMO.

Garvey
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 15, 2013, 06:46:10 PM
I swear this thread is becoming the main event around here.  Sure wish Peter and Norma could try a frozen pizza from Giordanos and put the same effort into duplicating that masterpiece.

Nate,

I never purchased a real Giordanos pizza, or any frozen ones, but did make some attempts on making a Giordanos pizza.  There are some good formulations here on the forum for a Giordanos pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: pythonic on April 16, 2013, 07:59:05 AM
Have you tried any of the Giordano's clone recipes here?  I was pretty happy with the one I made (and posted about).  I think the homemade versions surpass Giordano's, which is pretty bland, IMO.

Garvey


Yes I have tried many formulations and the taste or texture just isn't there.  Giordanos crust has a very distinct and different taste to it.  Not sure if this is coming from the fat/oil they are using or what?  Their crust is layered as well.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 16, 2013, 05:24:14 PM
I checked the dough after 24 hours and a large gas bubble deflated when I removed the lid. Should I punch it down or leave it alone, I wonder?
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 16, 2013, 05:35:47 PM
Jay,

You can pinch it shut.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 16, 2013, 06:59:09 PM
Ditto. I just got back from the doctors office....Bronchitis.  >:(
Bob,
I hope you're feeling better, I miss your input. Take care of yourself.  :)
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 16, 2013, 07:15:07 PM
Thank you Jay, I'm get'in there and you are very nice.
That dough ball of your's looks right and I can't wait to see how it turns out.  :chef:
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on April 16, 2013, 09:54:11 PM
yeah!! me too! cant wait to see and hear about your results Jay!!  im loving this thread!!  i am learning a lot!! 

Get better Bob!  i used to get chronic bronchitis!!  it can be  so tiring!!  yuck!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 17, 2013, 08:12:53 AM
Jay,

I think I would go with 50% hydration, 2.1% dry ADY (that is, no prehydration), 2% salt and 19% corn oil. That is the formulation that I planned to try next. I would look for a two-day cold fermentation. I would prepare the skin in the manner that I previously suggested to Norma, and that she used for her last HRI clone. That is, I would prepare the skin on a floured wooden peel (using a rolling pin or by hand); after forming the skin to 12", dock it while still on the peel; load the docked skin onto the carrier (either a dark anodized perforated disk or cutter pan); form the fluted rim (the final diameter of the fluted skin should be about 11 1/2"); and proof the skin for about 15 minutes at room temperature. If needed or desired, you can reform the fluted rim after the proof period if it droops and leans one way or the other. I am hoping that the reduced hydration and the use of less ADY, along with the two-day cold fermentation, translates into a sturdy skin with an upstanding fluted rim and without dimples.

If you plan to go light on the cheese and toppings, you might dress the pizza in the usual manner and bake it at about 425-450 degrees F until the crust at the rim and bottom is of the desired degree of browning. If you plan to use a lot of cheese and toppings, you might get better results pre-baking the skin until it turns a very light brown color (basically a hint of gold), and then dress and finish the bake. Ovens vary so you may have to decide which oven rack position to use and how long to bake the pizza. In my oven, and especially if I use a lot of cheese and toppings, I find it necessary to move the pizza to a higher oven rack position to get more top heat to melt and slightly brown the cheese.

If you need any help on the amounts of cheese, sauce and toppings to use for the pizza you would like to make, I think I can give you those numbers.

Peter
Peter,
I'm doing a sausage and mushroom pizza, using Meijer's Italian Sausage (it's what my wife picked up). I'm not going light on the toppings, I'll leave that to the more sophisticated pizza-teers. Me, I like my goodies. So it looks like I'll need to to a pre-bake. If you have any numbers for temperatures, cheese, sausage, etc. it'd be appreciated. I'll take a lot of pics, all the while trying to hold off the ravening wolverine that is my wife when there's a pizza to be had. People have lost fingers, we try not to bring it up at family functions.  :o
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on April 17, 2013, 08:35:17 AM
FWIW, a couple of forum members making DD recently have tried mixing oil and flour first, prior to adding water and other ingredients, and the results have been flaky/layery (e.g., http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,24593.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,24593.0.html)).
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2013, 10:11:26 AM
I'm doing a sausage and mushroom pizza, using Meijer's Italian Sausage (it's what my wife picked up). I'm not going light on the toppings, I'll leave that to the more sophisticated pizza-teers. Me, I like my goodies. So it looks like I'll need to to a pre-bake. If you have any numbers for temperatures, cheese, sausage, etc. it'd be appreciated. I'll take a lot of pics, all the while trying to hold off the ravening wolverine that is my wife when there's a pizza to be had. People have lost fingers, we try not to bring it up at family functions.  :o
Jay,

From http://www.grocerycouponnetwork.com/foodproducts/products.php?Id=19071 (http://www.grocerycouponnetwork.com/foodproducts/products.php?Id=19071), it appears that there are five links to the package of Meijer Italian sausage. Elsewhere, I read that the package weighs about 20 ounces (net weight). On that basis, for a 12" pizza I would use two links, with the sausage meat removed from its casing. That should translate to between 7 and 8 ounces of raw sausage. For the mozzarella cheese (low moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese, diced), I would go with around 6 ounces. HRI does not sell a Classic frozen pizza with mushrooms, but it does sell a sausage and mushroom pizza in its Signature line (http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/frozen-pizza/details?alias=sausage-mushroom (http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/frozen-pizza/details?alias=sausage-mushroom)). I don't know if the mushrooms are raw, cooked or canned (one Yelp reviewer said canned), either on its frozen pizzas or in its pizzerias, but absent any feedback from one of our members to enlighten us on this point, I think I would use around 4.5 ounces of raw, sliced mushroom that are then sauteed in a bit of olive oil, to add flavor as well as to reduce the amount of water released onto the pizza during baking. In this regard, you will note that the ingredients list for the HRI Signature Sausage & Mushroom pizza describes the mushrooms only as "Mushrooms", whatever that means. I estimate that the weight of the mushrooms after a light sauteing in olive oil should weigh a little over 3 ounces. 

For the sauce, I would use around 4 ounces by weight, or a bit more if you like more sauce. The dough ball weight should be around 15 ounces.

Adding up all of the above weights gives us an unbaked pizza weight of close to 36 ounces. I don't know what dough ball weight HRI uses for its frozen Signature Sausage & Pepperoni pizzas but even after baking the finished pizza weight will be a few ounces more than the Signature par-baked Sausage & Pepperoni pizza. It is quite possible that your pizza will have considerably more sausage on it.

I have no particularly good advice on the baking temperatures and times to use in your case since each oven is different. I would follow the visual cues that I mentioned in Reply 678 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg248622.html#msg248622 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg248622.html#msg248622) and be prepared to move the pizza around in the oven should it need more top or bottom browning.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2013, 11:47:03 AM
FWIW, a couple of forum members making DD recently have tried mixing oil and flour first, prior to adding water and other ingredients, and the results have been flaky/layery (e.g., http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,24593.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,24593.0.html)).
This subject came up earlier in this thread and, along with the article about the way that HRI makes its frozen pizzas, prompted me to try adding the oil to the flour before the water (the article was silent about when the water is added). I tried this method using both my food processor and my stand mixer (I started with the whisk attachment when I used the stand mixer). I can't say that the results were conclusive. Actually, the pizza that produced the greatest amount of flaking in the crust was the first one I tried, where I added the water before the oil. The dough for that pizza had a hydration of 53%, 2.5% IDY, 2% salt, and 19% corn oil. After the later clones did not exhibit the same degree of flakiness, I revisited what I had done with the first pizza. The only explanation I could find is that the crust diameter was greater than 11.5" (the size of a frozen 12" HRI pizza). I had expected that there would be greater shrinkage during baking. I had rolled out the skin to 13", and formed the fluted rim to achieve a final diameter (unbaked) of 12 1/2", figuring that the crust would shrink about an inch after pre-baking. It did not. The weight of the crust after pre-baking was very close to the weights of the crusts of the frozen HRI pizzas that I later dismantled. That led me to believe that HRI is using about 15 ounces of dough for its 12" frozen pizzas.

When things like this happen, like it or not, you are left to conduct more experiments. Maybe at some point I will repeat the first experiment to see if I achieve the same results as originally achieved. 

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: pythonic on April 17, 2013, 12:09:31 PM
Peter,

The oil/fats must be cold for it to work.  The steam creates the layers/flakiness.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2013, 12:14:23 PM
The oil/fats must be cold for it to work.  The steam creates the layers/flakiness.
Nate,

When you say cold, do you mean that the oil should be cold at the time of making the dough, or that the dough at the time of making the skin should be cold? If the latter, I tried using the dough while cold except that I let the skin on the perforated disk warm up for 15 minutes at room temperature before proceeding further, as is reportedly the case with the skins used in HRI's pizzerias.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 17, 2013, 12:33:09 PM
I'll be doing this on my baking disk to make it easy to move to a different oven shelf. The dough doesn't have a really strong"yeasty" smell as I thought it might but it does smell nice and fresh.
Holy crap, did I just do a Summer's Eve bit?  :-[
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: pythonic on April 17, 2013, 01:03:34 PM
Nate,

When you say cold, do you mean that the oil should be cold at the time of making the dough, or that the dough at the time of making the skin should be cold? If the latter, I tried using the dough while cold except that I let the skin on the perforated disk warm up for 15 minutes at room temperature before proceeding further, as is reportedly the case with the skins used in HRI's pizzerias.

Peter


Yes the dough must be cold.  So it did not work then?  Butter works far better than oil.  Shortening would probably work too.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2013, 03:36:07 PM

Yes the dough must be cold.  So it did not work then?
Nate,

Only partly and not consistently. However, for some of the pizzas, I used a lot of toppings. And my standard home electric oven is not a match for the conveyor ovens that HRI uses in its pizzerias and frozen pizza plants. Also, while I would like to be able to replicate the flakiness of an HRI crust, and I will still work toward that end, it would not devastate me not to achieve that result. I have been happy with the "pizzeria" versions that I have been making. To my palate, they are superior to the frozen HRI pizzas that I tried a while back. At the same time, there is a convenience factor that attaches to the frozen HRI pizzas, so I can understand that some people will want to keep a few in the freezer for when a snack attack strikes.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: pythonic on April 17, 2013, 05:35:35 PM
Nate,

Only partly and not consistently. However, for some of the pizzas, I used a lot of toppings. And my standard home electric oven is not a match for the conveyor ovens that HRI uses in its pizzerias and frozen pizza plants. Also, while I would like to be able to replicate the flakiness of an HRI crust, and I will still work toward that end, it would not devastate me not to achieve that result. I have been happy with the "pizzeria" versions that I have been making. To my palate, they are superior to the frozen HRI pizzas that I tried a while back. At the same time, there is a convenience factor that attaches to the frozen HRI pizzas, so I can understand that some people will want to keep a few in the freezer for when a snack attack strikes.

Peter

Did u see the frozen ny pies I made?
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2013, 05:49:32 PM
Nate,

Yes, I did see your frozen pizzas. That even gave me pause to wonder whether it would be possible to bake up a bunch of HRI clone pizzas along the lines as prepared by HRI in its frozen pizza plants and freeze them for future use. The HRI clone pizzas I made were considerably cheaper than even their frozen pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: pythonic on April 17, 2013, 05:51:41 PM
Peter,

Did you post pics of your HRI clones?
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2013, 05:58:46 PM
Peter,

Did you post pics of your HRI clones?

No. I have played the role of researcher and consultant on the HRI clones. Usually my preference is to work on my own until I am satisfied with the results. I also do not want to attract people who join the forum only to lift the clone recipes without deserving them. Recipes and photos are magnets for such people.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 17, 2013, 09:01:09 PM
The pizza rim looked nice when I put it into the oven but collapsed during the pre-bake. Any ideas how to do that better? My docking way useless, giant bubbles formed during the pre-bake which I poked flat. Fortunately, the toppings cover a multitude of sins. The pizza tasted good, though. We scarfed it down handily. Of course there are pictures to show the errors of my process.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 17, 2013, 09:03:13 PM
A couple more.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on April 17, 2013, 09:34:03 PM
dang!!!  that looks really good! top down it looks like real HRI to my eyes!!  nice job!!   thanks for the pics and posts!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 17, 2013, 09:36:01 PM
Jay,

Your photos of your HRI clone attempt look very good.  I am glad to hear you and your family really liked your HRI clone pizza.  You documented everything very well too.

I see you had the same problem as I did in the bottom crust with those dimples around the edges.  That still wonders me why that happens. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 17, 2013, 09:46:47 PM
Yes sir, very nice documentation indeed...thanks Jay, this info will go to good use. Pizza looks purdy an tasty.  :chef:
How much sausage did you end up using? Thanks.

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: pythonic on April 17, 2013, 11:02:07 PM
Can't some sort of metal ring be put around the pizza so the edges don't fall?
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 18, 2013, 12:17:33 AM
Bob,
I used two links of Meijer's Italian Sausage, which was 8 oz. I think Peter suggested 7 oz for the pizza but what would I do with 1 oz of sausage? Used 8 oz of Costo Mozz. and about 4 1/2 oz of mushrooms, sauteed a bit to cook off some moisture. I'm still having problems with that rim, though.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 18, 2013, 12:20:06 AM
Norma,
How did you get the rim to stay upright? It isn't working for me. It looked good going into the oven but then collapsed.
Although the giant blisters probably pushed down much of the rim.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 18, 2013, 12:21:35 AM
Can't some sort of metal ring be put around the pizza so the edges don't fall?

I think I'll use a 12 cutter pan the next time. Maybe that'll work for me.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2013, 07:25:22 AM
Norma,
How did you get the rim to stay upright? It isn't working for me. It looked good going into the oven but then collapsed.
Although the giant blisters probably pushed down much of the rim.

Jay,

I rolled the dough right out of the fridge.  I donít know if you did that or not.  I canít explain why my fluted rim stayed upright though.  If you look at my photos of my last attempt the pre-baked rim is not altogether upright.  It did slump a little.

I wonder how the rim stays upright at HRI pizzerias when they are dealing with many skins.  That has wondered me for awhile.  I would think after their dough becomes warm it would be harder to make the fluted rim stay upright.  Back in the day when they tossed and twirled their skins, I would think that would have been more of a problem to keep the fluted rim upright.  I donít know if the mixing method isnít right, or there might be something else we are missing.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2013, 08:23:54 AM
Jay,

I agree with the others that your pizza turned out well despite the collapse of the skin and the bubbling of the pre-baked crust. I have been using a commercial dough docker and have not experienced any problems using that tool. In using that docker, I dock only enough to cover the entire surface of the skin which, for a 12" pizza, is two side-by-side passes across the surface. I do not dock on both sides. I believe that HRI docks only on one side, from the top, even though the holes can be seen on the bottom of their frozen pizzas (and certainly under the sauce). You can see what my dough docker looks like in the first photo in Reply 389 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg26720.html#msg26720 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg26720.html#msg26720). I had forgotten this, but that post also describes a pre-bake scenario.

What I found most instructive about your latest effort is that your results seem to refute the notion that using a lower hydration is the answer to being able to form a fluted rim that will remain intact throughout the entire baking process. This has been nagging at me for some time. I believe that there may be a technique that best works to form the fluted rim (more on this below) but the answer may lie elsewhere. For example, it might be necessary to pre-bake at a higher temperature to cause the fluted/docked skin to set sooner. In its frozen pizza plants, HRI uses 490 degrees F for 90 seconds. However, that is for a rounded rim, not a fluted one, and the ovens are conveyor ovens. In a home setting, a higher pre-bake temperature might be needed. Even then, I would perhaps let the formed and docked skin rest on its carrier for 15 minutes, reform the fluted rim if necessary, and then conduct the pre-bake. Using the slightly warmed up skin should allow it to bake and set faster as compared with a completely cold dough.

Using a cutter pan may be worth trying. I know that it will work as a baking medium since I have tried it. My cutter pan is 14" and perforated and it is heavier than the 16" perforated disk I have been using. The added mass of the cutter pan in my case might necessitate a higher pre-bake temperature and time to overcome the thermal inertial of the cutter pan.

As for forming the fluted rim, I have closely studied everything I could find in the literature, and especially photos, that deal with this step. One of the things that I have noticed is that a pedestal seems to be formed in the skin at the base of the perforated disk, at the lower perimeter of the skin. I think one of the better photos that shows this is the photo at Reply 195 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg235707.html#msg235707 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg235707.html#msg235707). Note how the skin almost overlaps the disk at its perimeter. A similar pedestal effect can be seen at about 3:07 in the video in Reply 195 but where the skin does not overlap the disk at any point. The pedestal effect can also be seen, but not quited as clearly, at around 0:30 in the first video shown at Reply 304 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242309.html#msg242309  (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242309.html#msg242309). I don't mean to suggest that forming the rim as shown in Replies 195 and 304 will solve all of the rim issues but it may help.

Peter

Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2013, 08:38:36 AM
I wonder how the rim stays upright at HRI pizzerias when they are dealing with many skins.  That has wondered me for awhile.  I would think after their dough becomes warm it would be harder to make the fluted rim stay upright.  Back in the day when they tossed and twirled their skins, I would think that would have been more of a problem to keep the fluted rim upright.  I donít know if the mixing method isnít right, or there might be something else we are missing.
Norma,

I think the answer is that in a high volume operation you are going to see a wide variation in the nature and quality of the final product. Just look back to the Mack's experience and how their pizzas are all over the place, to the point where you seem to be disgusted with Mack's. You and I are at a disadvantage in our HRI cloning effort because we have never had real pizzas from an HRI pizzeria. If we sampled several of their pizzas at different times and at different HRI pizzerias we would have a much better idea as to the characteristics of the finished crusts. And they would be first hand observations, not based on recollections that go back several years and may be a bit murky. After all, most people just eat and enjoy pizza. They don't analyze and scrutinize it.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2013, 09:27:27 AM
Norma,

I think the answer is that in a high volume operation you are going to see a wide variation in the nature and quality of the final product. Just look back to the Mack's experience and how their pizzas are all over the place, to the point where you seem to be disgusted with Mack's. You and I are at a disadvantage in our HRI cloning effort because we have never had real pizzas from an HRI pizzeria. If we sampled several of their pizzas at different times and at different HRI pizzerias we would have a much better idea as to the characteristics of the finished crusts. And they would be first hand observations, not based on recollections that go back several years and may be a bit murky. After all, most people just eat and enjoy pizza. They don't analyze and scrutinize it.

Peter

Peter,

I agree that in a high volume operation you might be able to see a wide variation in the nature of the quality of the final product.  I do know what I found out from all the Mackís experiences I had and what other people posted about Mackís pizzas on the reviews.  I agree Mackís is all over the place now too.  I am disgusted with the real Mackís pizzas right now.  I also have seen comments from members here on the forum that have tasted Buddyís pizzas at different locations over the years and saw there are mixed reviews from them too. 

I understand if we had the opportunity to try HRI pizzerias over the years, it would help a lot.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2013, 09:33:44 AM
I was searching for more photos of HRI pizza slices, and also how the bottom crust looks.  I found this post and photos at the Chicago Pizza Clubís blog.  This article was from 2006.  http://www.chicagopizzaclub.com/2006/03/home-run-inn-meeting-25.html (http://www.chicagopizzaclub.com/2006/03/home-run-inn-meeting-25.html)

What I find interesting about those photos, other than the gum line is how thin the bottom crust looks.  I donít think any of my attempts with the TF I tried looked that thin.  I also didnít know that there was a garlic butter crust.  Does anyone know if those photos are from a garlic butter crust?

I guess the garlic butter crust would taste better as was also posted on the Slice article.  http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html (http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html)

I was wondering if a garlic butter is brushed on the skin before the pizza is dressed.  If it is, I could see how that could help the sauce not being able to migrate into the skin of the unbaked pizza and also the crust tasting better after the bake.  I also reread that article and it said that the basic crust at Home Run Inn is not particularly flavorful, so an adequate dose of garlic butter is really key to a particularly successful pizza there.

I see in the menu at Home Run Inn http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/website/documents/menus/menu_hill.pdf (http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/website/documents/menus/menu_hill.pdf)
That a garlic butter crust can be added for 1.00. 

Are there any ways to go about trying an attempt with a garlic butter crust?  I might try another attempt for this weekend, but am not sure.  Are there any other things I need to know if I make another attempt in doing something differently?

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2013, 10:08:02 AM
I was searching for more photos of HRI pizza slices, and also how the bottom crust looks.  I found this post and photos at the Chicago Pizza Clubís blog.  This article was from 2006.  http://www.chicagopizzaclub.com/2006/03/home-run-inn-meeting-25.html (http://www.chicagopizzaclub.com/2006/03/home-run-inn-meeting-25.html)

What I find interesting about those photos, other than the gum line is how thin the bottom crust looks.  I donít think any of my attempts with the TF I tried looked that thin.
Norma,

The photo in the blog that you referenced shows quite a bit of stuff on the pizza. I think the sheer volume and weight of the cheese and toppings on that pizza would limit the degree of rise of the dough, especially at the middle of the pizza. Under the circumstances, I can see how a gum line could form.

As I noted in a post some time ago, when I dismantled two of the frozen HRI pizzas and weighed the crusts, the weights were 14.71 and 14.42 ounces. By the time I was done scrubbing those two crusts, they were like a blank canvas (not quite, but I think you get the idea). No doubt there are variations in dough ball weights due to tolerances of dough chunking and dough dividing/rounding equipment, but I do not believe that the crusts of HRI's pizzas appear thin because of the weight of the dough ball. It is hard for me to imagine that HRI would use different dough ball weights for their frozen pizzas as they use for pizzas of the same size made in their pizzerias.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 18, 2013, 10:12:22 AM
A little more on yesterdayís HRI clone attempt:
Iím accustomed to pre-baking on the lowest oven rack but Iíve only done that with non-perforated pans, clearly I shouldnít have done that with the perforated disk. The bottom of the pizza was overdone far before the top was nicely browned. I nearly burned the bottom of the pizza. The crust was a little underdone in the center and Iíd have baked a little longer if the dough wasnít ready to start burning on the bottom. I think a little more dancing among the oven levels will prevent that the next time.
The next time Iíll do the pre-bake at least one level higher, even if using a non-perforated cutter pan. Iím unsure if the oven temperature needs to be a bit higher to compensate for the thicker cutter pan.
Thanks, Peter for posting the link to the dough docker picture, the procedure for doing a summertime pizza w/o heating up the whole house addressed some concerns of mine about doing pizza this simmer. Iíve ordered a dough docker to prevent my bubbling problems.
I should be ready for another try at this next week, using my favorite Italian deliís Mozzarella instead of the Costco cheese that I used in this last attempt.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2013, 10:24:46 AM
Norma,

The photo in the blog that you referenced shows quite a bit of stuff on the pizza. I think the sheer volume and weight of the cheese and toppings on that pizza would limit the degree of rise of the dough, especially at the middle of the pizza. Under the circumstances, I can see how a gum line could form.

As I noted in a post some time ago, when I dismantled two of the frozen HRI pizzas and weighed the crusts, the weights were 14.71 and 14.42 ounces. By the time I was done scrubbing those two crusts, they were like a blank canvas (not quite, but I think you get the idea). No doubt there are variations in dough ball weights due to tolerances of dough chunking and dough dividing/rounding equipment, but I do not believe that the crusts of HRI's pizzas appear thin because of the weight of the dough ball. It is hard for me to imagine that HRI would use different dough ball weights for their frozen pizzas as they use for pizzas of the same size made in their pizzerias.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your observations and comments about that photo in that blog.  What you posted makes sense to me.

I do get the idea of when you scrubbed those two crusts and then how much their weighed.  :-D I know you do everything thoroughly.  Thanks also for saying that you donít believe HRI would use different dough ball weights for their frozen pizzas and their doughs balls they use at HRI pizzerias. 

I have one of those small frozen HRI thin crust pizzas left to bake.  Is there anything you want me to note when trying to bake that pizza?  I want to see if the layers will appear on that crust in the bake.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2013, 11:01:49 AM
I have one of those small frozen HRI thin crust pizzas left to bake.  Is there anything you want me to note when trying to bake that pizza?  I want to see if the layers will appear on that crust in the bake.
Norma,

I think I would just make the pizza and enjoy it. Even though I have never had a real HRI pizzeria pizza, I have come to view the frozen HRI pizzas and the HRI pizzeria pizzas as two different products. I know that there are quite a few people who say that the frozen HRI pizzas are just like the ones sold in the HRI pizzerias, and HRI itself likes to perpetuate this myth (in my opinion) at Facebook (after all, the real money is in the frozen pizzas), but I have also seen reviews where the reviewers said that the two products were not the same. To take a product that was created in 1947 and intended for a deck oven and pretend that you can make thousands of credible clone pizza per hour in frozen pizza factories without anyone noticing the difference strains credulity in my opinion. Once you get into massive automation, and no matter how advanced and sophisticated and automated the equipment, the pizza coming off of the assembly line will not be as good as the one that Nick Perrino made in 1947. And perhaps not as good as those that followed in the HRI pizzerias over the ensuing years.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2013, 11:28:30 AM
Norma,

I think I would just make the pizza and enjoy it. Even though I have never had a real HRI pizzeria pizza, I have come to view the frozen HRI pizzas and the HRI pizzeria pizzas as two different products. I know that there are quite a few people who say that the frozen HRI pizzas are just like the ones sold in the HRI pizzerias, and HRI itself likes to perpetuate this myth (in my opinion) at Facebook (after all, the real money is in the frozen pizzas), but I have also seen reviews where the reviewers said that the two products were not the same. To take a product that was created in 1947 and intended for a deck oven and pretend that you can make thousands of credible clone pizza per hour in frozen pizza factories without anyone noticing the difference strains credulity in my opinion. Once you get into massive automation, and no matter how advanced and sophisticated and automated the equipment, the pizza coming off of the assembly line will not be as good as the one that Nick Perrino made in 1947. And perhaps not as good as those that followed in the HRI pizzerias over the ensuing years.

Peter

Peter,

I agree with everything you posted.  After tasting a couple of frozen HRI pizzas I donít believe there is any way a frozen HRI pizza could taste the same as a real HRI pizza of years ago by Nick Perrino, or even ones that HRI pizzerias make now.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on April 18, 2013, 03:02:02 PM
While all of this is true, the flaky layers phenomenon exists in both products, restaurant and frozen.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2013, 03:19:09 PM
While all of this is true, the flaky layers phenomenon exists in both products, restaurant and frozen.
Garvey,

Did the flaky layers extend across the entire pizza crust of the HRI pizzeria pizzas or just at the perimeter for the most part, including the rim?

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on April 18, 2013, 06:18:00 PM
The whole thing.  It's like eating dense puff pastry, almost.  Hard to describe.


Cheers,
Garvey
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2013, 07:39:06 PM
The whole thing.  It's like eating dense puff pastry, almost.  Hard to describe.


Cheers,
Garvey


Garvey,

I find it interesting that you posted the flaky layers are on the entire pizza crust of HRI pizzas.  I know I havenít achieved anything like that in any of my attempts and I sure donít know how to go about trying something to get those results.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on April 18, 2013, 07:43:19 PM
I think I understand what Garvey means...  I think I mentioned this before, but to me it's almost like eating layers of phyllo pastry.  I mean, it's not *really* like that (at all), but I can't really think of any other way to describe it.  It's like a little oily cluster of very densely-packed layers.  but it's crunchy and the layers flake apart when you eat it.   :chef:
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2013, 08:28:29 PM
I think I understand what Garvey means...  I think I mentioned this before, but to me it's almost like eating layers of phyllo pastry.  I mean, it's not *really* like that (at all), but I can't really think of any other way to describe it.  It's like a little oily cluster of very densely-packed layers.  but it's crunchy and the layers flake apart when you eat it.   :chef:

CDNpielover,

Thanks for posting what you think Garvey means.  I was going to start another dough attempt tonight, but don't know of any way to achieve a crust like that. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2013, 08:54:34 PM
Norma,

Here is an example of an HRI pizzeria pizza with a rim that is not a thin, upstanding one. I simply view it as evidence of how pizzas can vary in any pizzeria.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2013, 09:11:44 PM
And here is another example of the method I described earlier to form the upstanding fluted rim. It is as though the skin is pressed out to a larger than final size and then gathered at the outer edge and pinched together to form the rim so that it has a base so to speak. If more dough is taken up by the rim, that would result in a thinner center. I'm speculating here but that could translate into a crispier crust. The photo below, as well as the last one, came from the HRI Facebook page.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2013, 10:01:21 PM
Peter,

Thanks for those photos and explaining you think the one photo is evidence that pizzas can vary at HRI.  I see what you mean by it looks like the skin is pressed out to a larger than final size and then gathered at the outer edge and pinched together to form the rim in the second photo.  I know you are speculating, but understand how that method might translate into a crisper crust. 

Maybe, I still might make another test dough tonight.  Do you still recommend the hydration you gave Jay to try at Reply 678 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg248622.html#msg248622 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg248622.html#msg248622)

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 19, 2013, 06:11:23 AM
Norma,

I think the hydration value set forth in Reply 678 is as good as any to try at this point should you decide to proceed with another attempt.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 19, 2013, 06:34:34 AM
Norma,

I think the hydration value set forth in Reply 678 is as good as any to try at this point should you decide to proceed with another attempt.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your advice of what to try.  I will make another dough this morning for an attempted pizza on Sunday.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 19, 2013, 07:58:54 AM
Thanks for your advice of what to try.  I will make another dough this morning for an attempted pizza on Sunday.
Norma,

If this gets to you in time, you might try adding the oil to the flour before adding the rest of the ingredients, including the water. That should impede the hydration of the flour and make for a drier dough ball.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 19, 2013, 08:23:13 AM
Norma,

If this gets to you in time, you might try adding the oil to the flour before adding the rest of the ingredients, including the water. That should impede the hydration of the flour and make for a drier dough ball.

Peter

Peter,

I already mixed the dough, but can try adding the oil to the flour before adding the rest ingredients the next time, or another member can try your method first.  I can understand your method should impede the hydration of the flour and make for a drier dough ball.

This is what I did. I mixed another attempt at an HRI clone dough.  The mixing sequence was water, then flour mixed with the flat beater.  Next the dough hook was used to mix and then the corn oil was drizzled in and mixed some more before the salt and ADY were added.  The dough then was mixed for 6 more minutes.  The final dough temperature was 76.2 degrees F.  The dough was scaled back to 425 grams and then balled and poppy seeds were place on the oiled dough ball.  The dough ball went into the fridge at 7:58 AM.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 19, 2013, 11:56:53 AM
Peter,

I was looking on HRI Pizzaís facebook page again, and donít think I looked at this photo before.  It shows what looks like cheese, sausage and pepperoni pizza going into the conveyor oven.  It looks to me like there is not as much cheese applied as I have been doing and it looks like a lot more pepperoni is applied.  Would that change the bake of our attempts if less LMPS is applied?  Do you think HRI pizzerias might apply different amounts of mozzarella than they do to their frozen pizzas?

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 19, 2013, 12:53:22 PM
I was looking on HRI Pizzaís facebook page again, and donít think I looked at this photo before.  It shows what looks like cheese, sausage and pepperoni pizza going into the conveyor oven.  It looks to me like there is not as much cheese applied as I have been doing and it looks like a lot more pepperoni is applied.  Would that change the bake of our attempts if less LMPS is applied?  Do you think HRI pizzerias might apply different amounts of mozzarella than they do to their frozen pizzas?
Norma,

You did see the photo before. I showed the same photo at Reply 195 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg235707.html#msg235707 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg235707.html#msg235707), and later cross referenced Reply 195 at Reply 348 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242823.html#msg242823 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242823.html#msg242823). You acknowledged the photo Reply 349.

With respect to the amounts of pepperoni used, it is hard to say without knowing the size of the pizza shown in the photo. HRI makes pizzas in its pizzerias in the 12", 14" and 16" sizes (http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/website/documents/menus/HRI%20TakeOutMenu_2012_CHIlowres.pdf (http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/website/documents/menus/HRI%20TakeOutMenu_2012_CHIlowres.pdf)). Since it appears that HRI builds its pizzeria pizzas on a digital scale, it is possible that they use pepperoni slices in an amount that is proportional to the pizza size. So, for example, if a 12" pizza has 14 slices (as used, for example, on a 12" frozen HRI pepperoni pizza), the number of pepperoni slices on a 14" pizza would be 14 x (49/36) = 19 pepperoni slices, and for the 16" size, it would be 14 x (64/36) = 25 pepperoni slices. If my assumptions are correct, the pizza in the photo would be 16". The pepperoni pizza shown in the HRI menu referenced above looks like it might be a 14" pizza based on the number of pepperoni slices. The "natural" pepperoni that HRI uses is more expensive than the common variety, so I would imagine that they don't go wild in the amounts of pepperoni slices that they put on their pizzas.

As for the cheese, one of the things that I discovered when I dismantled the HRI frozen pizzas and weighed several of the parts of the pizzas, I discovered that the amounts of cheese can vary on the pizzas, particularly those that have a lot of toppings. I discussed this facet of my experiments at Reply 307 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242492/topicseen.html#msg242492 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242492/topicseen.html#msg242492). As a general principle, and all else being equal, a pizza with a lot of stuff on it will bake differently than one with only a few things on it.

The above notwithstanding, I do not know if the HRI pizzeria pizzas use the same amounts of cheese and toppings as for the frozen HRI pizzas with the same toppings. Maybe one of our members with total recall can answer that question for us.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 19, 2013, 01:34:53 PM
Norma,

You did see the photo before. I showed the same photo at Reply 195 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg235707.html#msg235707 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg235707.html#msg235707), and later cross referenced Reply 195 at Reply 348 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242823.html#msg242823 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242823.html#msg242823). You acknowledged the photo Reply 349.

With respect to the amounts of pepperoni used, it is hard to say without knowing the size of the pizza shown in the photo. HRI makes pizzas in its pizzerias in the 12", 14" and 16" sizes (http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/website/documents/menus/HRI%20TakeOutMenu_2012_CHIlowres.pdf (http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/website/documents/menus/HRI%20TakeOutMenu_2012_CHIlowres.pdf)). Since it appears that HRI builds its pizzeria pizzas on a digital scale, it is possible that they use pepperoni slices in an amount that is proportional to the pizza size. So, for example, if a 12" pizza has 14 slices (as used, for example, on a 12" frozen HRI pepperoni pizza), the number of pepperoni slices on a 14" pizza would be 14 x (49/36) = 19 pepperoni slices, and for the 16" size, it would be 14 x (64/36) = 25 pepperoni slices. If my assumptions are correct, the pizza in the photo would be 16". The pepperoni pizza shown in the HRI menu referenced above looks like it might be a 14" pizza based on the number of pepperoni slices. The "natural" pepperoni that HRI uses is more expensive than the common variety, so I would imagine that they don't go wild in the amounts of pepperoni slices that they put on their pizzas.

As for the cheese, one of the things that I discovered when I dismantled the HRI frozen pizzas and weighed several of the parts of the pizzas, I discovered that the amounts of cheese can vary on the pizzas, particularly those that have a lot of toppings. I discussed this facet of my experiments at Reply 307 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242492/topicseen.html#msg242492 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242492/topicseen.html#msg242492). As a general principle, and all else being equal, a pizza with a lot of stuff on it will bake differently than one with only a few things on it.

The above notwithstanding, I do not know if the HRI pizzeria pizzas use the same amounts of cheese and toppings as for the frozen HRI pizzas with the same toppings. Maybe one of our members with total recall can answer that question for us.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that I did see that photo before.  :-[ I think I need some of those memory pills.  I do recall now.

I can understand the amount of pepperoni used would depend on what size pizza was shown in that photo.  I didnít think about a larger pizza when I looked at that photo.  Since it appears HRI builds its pizzeria pizzas on a scale, it seems like HRI would be pretty consistent in their amounts of toppings.  Maybe it just appeared to me there was less cheese since more toppings were on that pizza.

Thanks for referencing Reply 307 again. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 19, 2013, 08:16:09 PM
I donít know what to make of this attempted HRI clone dough ball, but after 12 hrs. it has not showed signs of any signs of fermentation from using the poppy seed trick.  The only different method I used this time, was to mix the salt 2 minutes into the final mix with the dough hook and then added the ADY last and mixed the rest of the way.  The only other differences are my fridge is now colder and also the room temperature where I was mixing the dough this morning was cooler.  The cooler room temperature wouldnít make much of any difference in my opinion, because the final dough ball temperature was okay.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 19, 2013, 08:23:16 PM
Well, this is a totally different way of dough making for you and it looks like it is doing what was hoped for, no? By adding a non bloomed ady into your mix at the final stage of mixing....I too am curious just how long it will take to see some action. This is interesting Norma.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 19, 2013, 08:48:31 PM
Well, this is a totally different way of dough making for you and it looks like it is doing what was hoped for, no? By adding a non bloomed ady into your mix at the final stage of mixing....I too am curious just how long it will take to see some action. This is interesting Norma.

Bob,

I really donít know if that is what I hoped for.  I expected the dough to ferment some by now with all that ADY.  The only thing I did differently last week was added the salt on one side of the dough and the ADY on the other side and then gave it the final mix.  This is a photo of the bottom of the dough ball.  I canít really tell if those bubbles are bubbles or fermentation, or maybe just from the dough ball settling in the plastic container.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 19, 2013, 09:01:40 PM
Norma,

I wouldn't be alarmed. The method you used to make the dough, along with the cooler temperatures, are keeping the yeast from doing its thing. In due course, I would expect the yeast to wake up and let the fermentation process take hold and rise the dough. Once that happens, the rise should speed up quite quickly. The rise won't be linear. It will take place in sizable jumps. What we don't know at this point is the fermentation window for your dough. It might be 24 hours ot it might be 48 hours. I'd rather have a restrained fermentation than one that is almost uncontrollable.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 19, 2013, 09:28:29 PM
Norma,

I wouldn't be alarmed. The method you used to make the dough, along with the cooler temperatures, are keeping the yeast from doing its thing. In due course, I would expect the yeast to wake up and let the fermentation process take hold and rise the dough. Once that happens, the rise should speed up quite quickly. The rise won't be linear. It will take place in sizable jumps. What we don't know at this point is the fermentation window for your dough. It might be 24 hours ot it might be 48 hours. I'd rather have a restrained fermentation than one that is almost uncontrollable.

Peter


Thanks for telling me what is happening is normal for right now.  I will watch the dough ball over the next day and take photos every 12 hrs. so you can decide when I should use the dough ball to make the pizza.  I would rather have the fermentation restrained too, but will watch and see what happens.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 19, 2013, 10:16:53 PM
Norma,

I wouldn't be alarmed.
Peter
        = you can get a 'lil franic...but jus don't panic!   ;D
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 19, 2013, 10:37:50 PM
        = you can get a 'lil franic...but jus don't panic!   ;D

Bob,

I didn't panic.  I just thought it wasn't right that the dough ball didn't ferment more since this morning.  There is always another day to make another dough ball.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 20, 2013, 07:48:49 AM
This is how the attempted HRI clone dough ball looks after 23 Ĺ hrs. of cold fermentation.  The dough ball is firm and it really canít be seen on the top view of the dough ball from the one photo, but it looks something like pie dough in that the corn oil looks somewhat separated from the flour and water.  If anyone wants me to take a picture outside in better natural light, I can do that to see what the top of the dough ball really looks like.  The poppy seeds have moved a little until this morning.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 20, 2013, 08:36:18 AM
The dough ball is firm and it really canít be seen on the top view of the dough ball from the one photo, but it looks something like pie dough in that the corn oil looks somewhat separated from the flour and water.
Norma,

As I mentioned to Bob at Reply 566 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715/topicseen.html#msg245715 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715/topicseen.html#msg245715), you can expect to see white spots on the outer surface of the dough ball. If that is what you are referring to, that would be quite normal. Those white spots will spread out and diminish and disappear for the most part as fermentation proceeds, and especially toward the end of the fermentation window.

I like what your dough is doing. I don't know if you are replicating what HRI does with its dough but I will be interested in seeing how your dough performs when time comes to use it to make the skin. In particular, I would like to see how the dough performs when it hasn't gone much beyond the doubling stage, whenever that occurs. You might recall that the articles on HRI's dough mentioned a fermentation window of from 12 hours to 3 days.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 20, 2013, 09:01:44 AM
Norma,

As I mentioned to Bob at Reply 566 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715/topicseen.html#msg245715 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245715/topicseen.html#msg245715), you can expect to see white spots on the outer surface of the dough ball. If that is what you are referring to, that would be quite normal. Those white spots will spread out and diminish and disappear for the most part as fermentation proceeds, and especially toward the end of the fermentation window.

I like what your dough is doing. I don't know if you are replicating what HRI does with its dough but I will be interested in seeing how your dough performs when time comes to use it to make the skin. In particular, I would like to see how the dough performs when it hasn't gone much beyond the doubling stage, whenever that occurs. You might recall that the articles on HRI's dough mentioned a fermentation window of from 12 hours to 3 days.

Peter

Peter,

I guess the white spots is what I am seeing on the dough ball.  Photo below to show what I am seeing. 

I sure donít know if I am replicating what HRI does with it dough either.  I do recall that the articles on the HRIís dough mentioned a fermentation window of 12 hours to 3 days.  I think that is a pretty big window of fermentation when so much yeast is used, but then I saw how much fermentation my last dough ball had and was useable.  I also recall about your dough ball in your last experiment.  I will try to use the dough ball to make the pizza when the dough ball hasnít gone much beyond the doubling stage. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 20, 2013, 12:34:24 PM
Ok, I'm just free-wheelin' here but has anyone ever tried a fat like lard or coconut oil, you know, something that's solid at room temperatures? As a way of getting layers into the finished pizza. There're probably many reasons why it won't work but I'm just askin'.
I got a dough docker and a new KD8000 scale so I'm locked and loaded for another HRI try next week. But first I wanna try BTB's Thin Crust with Semolina with a 12-inch cutter pan.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 20, 2013, 08:52:10 PM
This is how the dough ball looks after a little over 36 Ĺ hours.  The poppy seed spacings havenít changed a lot, but it can be seen on the side of the plastic container that the dough ball is fermenting.  Also, there is one soft bubble on the one top side of the dough ball.  The rest of the dough ball is still firm.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 21, 2013, 08:38:54 AM
By looking at the spacing of poppy seeds this morning after 48 hours of cold fermentation the dough ball has not doubled in size, because the spacing of the poppy seeds are not a little over 1 ľĒ apart.  The dough ball on the bottom does look like it is fermenting well.  There are now two small bubbles on the top of the dough ball, but the rest of dough ball is still firm.  This dough ball seems to be fermenting slowly with the higher amount of yeast that was used and it did not have any rapid fermentation at any point in time that I could see.

I am going to have to use the dough ball to make a pizza later today even if it doesnít double in size, because tomorrow I will be too busy to make a pizza. 

I wondered when if I should roll out this dough ball, or try to pressed it open by hand and also if I should make the skin larger than my last attempt and bunch up the fluted rim a little more to see if a thinner middle skin would make the bottom crust crisper after the bake of around 425 degrees F.  I do plan on dressing the pizza without a pre-bake after room temperature proofing the skin on the dark disk for about 15 to 20 minutes, unless I should try something else. 

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Pete-zza on April 21, 2013, 09:14:09 AM
Norma,

I'm not quite sure what is happening to your dough. I went back through all of my notes on my experiments, and even when using the ADY dry I did not experience what you have gotten with the latest dough. There were a couple of instances where the dough seemed to ferment quite slowly, with little increase in the spacing of the poppy seeds, but eventually the spacing did increase. I even remember asking myself at the time if perhaps the poppy seed trick does not work as well or as consistently with the HRI type of clone dough, with all the oil, etc. November, who showed me the poppy seed trick, said that it didn't always work. But, like you, I saw from the sides and bottom of the glass storage container that there were the usual bubbles of fermentation. Also, to my eye the dough seemed to expand even without a lot of increase in the spacing of the poppy seeds.

In Reply 734 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg249428.html#msg249428 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg249428.html#msg249428), you mentioned that you added the salt and the dry ADY after the oil. Did you add the salt and dry ADY in sequence (salt followed by the dry ADY) or simultaneously? I'm not sure it makes a difference but it may be useful to know for future reference. In cases like this, my practice is to repeat the experiment to see if the same results are achieved. As I mentioned before, the dry ADY trick is one that is used to prolong the fermentation period. I believe that Papa John's uses that method so that its dough will sustain a fermentation period (cold) of up to eight days. Maybe your latest dough is one such dough, but unlikely to go out to eight days because you are using considerably more ADY by several orders of magnitude.

I agree that you should use the dough, for the reasons you mentioned. There is clearly fermentation no matter what the poppy seeds are telling you. I'm not sure that it makes a difference whether you roll the dough out or press it out. Both methods were used over the course of the history of HRI. If you were to be consistent with present practice, you might press out the skin if it lends itself to that method.

Peter
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 21, 2013, 10:11:30 AM
Norma,

I'm not quite sure what is happening to your dough. I went back through all of my notes on my experiments, and even when using the ADY dry I did not experience what you have gotten with the latest dough. There were a couple of instances where the dough seemed to ferment quite slowly, with little increase in the spacing of the poppy seeds, but eventually the spacing did increase. I even remember asking myself at the time if perhaps the poppy seed trick does not work as well or as consistently with the HRI type of clone dough, with all the oil, etc. November, who showed me the poppy seed trick, said that it didn't always work. But, like you, I saw from the sides and bottom of the glass storage container that there were the usual bubbles of fermentation. Also, to my eye the dough seemed to expand even without a lot of increase in the spacing of the poppy seeds.

In Reply 734 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg249428.html#msg249428 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg249428.html#msg249428), you mentioned that you added the salt and the dry ADY after the oil. Did you add the salt and dry ADY in sequence (salt followed by the dry ADY) or simultaneously? I'm not sure it makes a difference but it may be useful to know for future reference. In cases like this, my practice is to repeat the experiment to see if the same results are achieved. As I mentioned before, the dry ADY trick is one that is used to prolong the fermentation period. I believe that Papa John's uses that method so that its dough will sustain a fermentation period (cold) of up to eight days. Maybe your latest dough is one such dough, but unlikely to go out to eight days because you are using considerably more ADY by several orders of magnitude.

I agree that you should use the dough, for the reasons you mentioned. There is clearly fermentation no matter what the poppy seeds are telling you. I'm not sure that it makes a difference whether you roll the dough out or press it out. Both methods were used over the course of the history of HRI. If you were to be consistent with present practice, you might press out the skin if it lends itself to that method.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for going back through all of your notes on your experiments and telling me the spacing of your poppy seeds on your dough ball did eventually increase.  I had also wondered if the poppy seed trick works with this dough since all the oil that is added.  I recall November said the poppy seed trick doesnít always work.   I thought the bottom of the dough was looking okay in the amounts it was fermenting, after I initially wondered if it was fermenting at all. 

I posted at Reply 738 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg249594.html#msg249594 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg249594.html#msg249594)
that I did add the salt after 2 minutes into the final mix.  I could see the dough tighten up at first when the salt was added.  I didnít post that I mixed on speed 2 for 2 minutes after the salt was added and then added the ADY and mixed again, so the salt and ADY were sequenced and not mixed simultaneously.  I can repeat this same dough experiment later if the final pizza turns out okay.  I think the dry ADY trick is a good one.  I never really knew about that until this thread.  Interesting that you believe that Papa Johnís uses that method so that its dough will sustain a fermentation period of up to eight days.  I sure donít think my dough ball would last up to 8 days because of the high amount of ADY.

I also wanted to add although my fridge temperature was initially lower in temperature when the dough ball went into the refrigerator, now is it actually the normal temperature.  I know fridge temperatures change from opening and shutting the door, defrost cycles..etc.  It is also cool in our area right now. 

I will try to press out the dough by hand.

Norma 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 21, 2013, 08:43:16 PM
This is how this attempt went on an the HRI clone dough and HRI clone pizza. 

The dough ball didnít double in size by the measurements of the poppy seeds spacing, but the dough ball did look fermented enough. The dough ball was taken out of the fridge at 6:30 PM and I thought I would first try to roll the dough out to a skin a little, and then try to press out the skin by hand.  After rolling for a little I tried to pressed it out the rest of the way and even tried to pick it up and stretch by hand, but as can be seen there wanted to be two tears in the skin, so I finished rolling the skin out to 13Ē.  I rolled to 13Ē to see if a thinner crust might be able to be crisper on the bottom crust.  I first folded over the edges of the rim and then fluted.  The skin was docked before fluting.  The skin on the dark disk was tempered for 20 minutes at room temperature at about 70 degrees F.  A couple parts of the fluted rim wanted to fall some so I pushed them back up and fluted those parts again. 

The pizza was dressed right after the skin was tempered.  Until the sauce and mozzarella were applied the one side of the fluted rim wanted to sag down, so I fluted that again.  Until the whole pizza was dressed the fluted edges seemed to behave better, in that they did stay upright then.  I didnít use a lot of bench flour when rolling, so I donít know if I would have used more bench flour if that might have made the fluted edges stay upright better.  I could see that even before trying to flute the skin that it was going to give those dimples right near the edges of the dark disk.  I donít know if more flour would have been used when rolling if that would improve those dimples either, but I did see that the longer the fluted skin sat out the more it wanted to stay upright without sagging.

The pizza was dressed with a hot sausage I had purchased at my local supermarket on sale for .99.  The amounts of ingredients used on this pizza were 7 ounces of the hot sausage, 6.5 ounces of LMPS mozzarella, 14 slices of pepperoni, 1.1 ounce of diced green peppers and 4 ounces of sauce. 

The pizza was baked on the second to the top rack of the oven at 425 degrees F for 15 minutes, then I removed the bottom rack and put it on the top oven rack position for the last 2 minutes because the cheese wasnít browning enough.  I would have put the top rack in at first, but I thought it would be too close to the pizza for me to be able to watch what was going on in the bake.  Total bake time was 17 minutes.  The fluted edges did stay upright in the oven, with no sagging.  The edge crust got a little too brown.  There was no real gum lines as can be seen in the photos.  The baked pizza was 11 Ĺ ď.  I liked the thicker rim crust better than when I fluted thinner in the looks and taste.  The bottom crust didnít seem any thinner to me though.

The HRI clone pizza did turn out very tasty in my opinion, in that the crust did have a good taste and the bottom crust and fluted edges were flaky.  I sure donít know though if they were flaky enough, since I never ate any real HRI pizzas at their pizzerias.  I did really like the combination of toppings on this pizza.  At least I also found out a pre-bake of the skin really wasnít needed to make a decent pizza.

Donít mind my fingers because I was outside working today, so my fingernails arenít in the best shape.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 21, 2013, 08:48:29 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 21, 2013, 08:50:30 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on April 21, 2013, 08:52:53 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 27, 2013, 12:52:04 PM
Peter,
I'm ready to try another HRI pizza. Would it be out of bounds on this thread to try to make it in a 12-inch cutter pan? I want to do a sausage and mushroom (and maybe pepperoni) pizza. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 27, 2013, 01:24:47 PM
Peter,
I'm ready to try another HRI pizza. Would it be out of bounds on this thread to try to make it in a 12-inch cutter pan? I want to do a sausage and mushroom (and maybe pepperoni) pizza. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Jay,
I did one a week ago in a 12"cutter pan. I used some technique that lamination expert member John "fazzari" is helping me with...I inadvertently used a cutter pan instead of his recommended "straight on the stone". I can tell you that mine did not work although it did produce some areas that had very promising crazy good layers/flakiness. I have not given up on this HRI deal and now that my bronchitis is gone I'm back in the saddle.  8)

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: loowaters on April 28, 2013, 01:06:05 PM
Head hurting.  Trying to catch up.  Must sift through much information.  Want to experiment.  No time. 

Loo
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: mrmojo1 on April 28, 2013, 04:05:52 PM
Great to hear from you again Loo!!!!
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 28, 2013, 04:39:39 PM
Head hurting.  Trying to catch up.  Must sift through much information.  Want to experiment.  No time. 

Loo
Hi loo!
Pull up a seat an watch me mess up, er I mean, try to recreate HRI pizza.  ;D
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: redox on April 30, 2013, 12:17:10 AM
Jay,
I did one a week ago in a 12"cutter pan. I used some technique that lamination expert member John "fazzari" is helping me with...I inadvertently used a cutter pan instead of his recommended "straight on the stone". I can tell you that mine did not work although it did produce some areas that had very promising crazy good layers/flakiness. I have not given up on this HRI deal and now that my bronchitis is gone I'm back in the saddle.  8)

Bob

Bob,
Glad you're feeling better. A lamination technique sounds interesting. I'll have to get one of my favorite local pizzas and post some pix, they do something like that. I just have no idea how.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: pythonic on April 30, 2013, 05:24:28 PM
Ahhh man...now that Loo is back I may need to participate as well.

Nate
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Gruvypoet on May 08, 2013, 03:38:20 PM
EVERYONE !
I'm a newbie to the forum (well, as a registered member)
But not a newbie to pizza experimentation (many successes and a few failures)
I just wanna give a shout out to you guys, I feel like the prodigal son who has come back to his family.
I'm looking forward to learning as well as sharing some of my "avant garde" techniques and "home-oven" work arounds !!!!
Lets continue to be the coolest kids on the block by blowing away our friends with KILLER PIZZA !!!
Cheers,
Gruvy
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 08, 2013, 04:33:06 PM
Sounds groovy to me man!  :)
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 18, 2013, 01:07:24 PM
I just spent several hours skimming all 39 pages or so of this thread.  Sorry I didn't read all the post, it is just too overwhelming.  I commend everyone for their efforts.   I've never had an HRI pie, but based on the discription and efforts, I want to give it a try.  Instead of building on everyone's efforts I want to take a slightly new approach.  I have a few thoughts in mind concerning the characteristics of this peculiar crust.  Sorry if any of this has already been discussed or tried but it's where my gut tells me to go.  Again, I apologize for not having read every post here.

1) yeasty flavor.  Of all the doughs I've ever made from emergency doughs to moderately long fermented doughs, the ONLY doughs that had that yeasty taste whether it be pizza or dinner rolls were emergency doughs with around 2% cake yeast.  If you all want that "yeasty" flavor, that is where I would look.

2)Flakiness and use of oil versus solid fats.  I know the ingredients list corn oil and I am aware that Norma mentioned modifying a pie crust recipe.  I make an ETREMELY flaky pie crust that is basically comprised of 50% shortening and 50% AP flour with just a small amount of water, salt, sugar, vinegar, and an egg.  I'm not suggesting using a pie crust recipe for this dough, but I will be starting out with about 25% to perhaps 30%+ butter flavor crisco shortening and then working in small amounts of water to get a semi stiff dough.  I will also be using the pie crust technique of cutting the fat into the flour first.  The crumbles, especially marble sized should help create that layered effect resembling lamination.

My pie crust also calls for a small amount of vinegar.  It is suppose to help relax the gluten.  What I need to know from those of you who have eaten a lot of this pizza is if the crust is chewy at all?  How much chew is there?  A little or a lot or none at all?  Again, I'm not making a pie crust per se, but will use that knowledge to make a HRI clone with similar crust characteristics.

My pie crust recipe also calls for freezing the dough first and then allowing it thaw out.  The reviews that I read on this particular pie crust, one poster commented on how he had tested freezing vs not freezing the pie crust and that there was a difference in flakiness.  Is it possible that HRI is freezing their dough first or keeping them at really cold temps prior to thawing out and making pizza?  Just wondering.   ???

Anyways, I hope to attempt this in the next several weeks and will try to post pictures if I get anything close to what HRI is suppose to look like.

Chau
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on May 20, 2013, 07:03:10 PM
Chau,

I missed your post because I was away and didn't get an email that you replied on this thread.  I wish you the best when you decide to give your method a try.  ;) I do have two frozen Home Run Inn pizzas left to try and I am interested in trying to see if the Ultra Thin pizza does get those layers in the crust when it is baked.  There is some way that Home Run Inn crusts gets those layers of flakiness, but I sure haven't been able to achieve it yet.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 21, 2013, 12:20:36 AM
Thanks Norma.  Can you tell me how much chew there is to the crust?  Is the crust a little chewy or not at all?
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on May 21, 2013, 06:49:14 AM
Thanks Norma.  Can you tell me how much chew there is to the crust?  Is the crust a little chewy or not at all?

Chau,

I never really had a fresh Home Run Inn pizza, but the ones I attempted and the frozen ones I tried had no chew at all if I try to explain them in a context to a NY style pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Garvey on May 21, 2013, 06:29:44 PM
No chew, Chau.  Crunchy bottom that softens towards top.  Should be able to lift a piece and it wouldn't droop at all.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 23, 2013, 12:26:13 AM
Thank you Norma and Garvey for the description of the HRI crust.  I really want to try and make this crust, but not ever having had it and only going by pictures and descriptions from members poses a unique challenge to me.

I just mixed up my first batch of experimental dough (one of many I am sure) and wanted to share some thoughts and bounce some ideas off of you HRI experts.

 In keeping with the pie crust technique, I cut the shortening into the flour to make a crumbly texture like that of rough sand.  I opted for this technique b/c I believe this is where the layered effect comes from and not actual lamination of the dough.  I then dissolved my salt and sugar into the water and added the water to the crumbly flour and shortening mixture.  As I began to mix this up, I noticed 2 things right away...
1) the dough resembles my pie dough where I could visually see layers upon layers of dough coming together.  Think flaky lamination effect.
2) the dough felt too dry initially.   I then proceeded to up the amount of water by small increments while I kneaded the dough gently to incorporate the new water until the dough felt "right" to me. 
As I was doing this though I noted that the layering (lamination) effect was disappearing as more and more water was incorporated.   I stopped adding water and worked the dough a bit more with a final hydration of 64% hydration.

I am noting this just to say that I believe the laminating effect in the crust is due to 2 things.  Cutting the oil/fat into the flour first and secondly an overall relatively low hydration dough.  Keeping the hydration low accomplishes 2 things.  One it preserves and layering effect from the fat and secondly it will give that drier crispier and flaky crust.  This would seem to be inline with Garvey's observation that crust doesn't bend or droop when picked up and it is flaky without "chew" to it.   Garvey also shared with me in a PM that when the crust is cut, there will be chips or flakes of crust on the plate. 

Chau
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 23, 2013, 01:14:13 AM
I went ahead and made a 2nd batch with 60% hydration for pictures and testing purposes. 60% hydration in my dry and elvated climate is closer to a 56% hydration at sea level.  Anywho, this batch felt really too dry to me so I wrapped it in plastic wrap and will let it sit out for a bit to see if it won't soften up.  I'm posting some pictures to show the layering effect in the dough.  Pic 1 is after water is added and dough is beginning to form.  Pic 2, after a short and gentle incoporation of the water.  You can see the dough is flaking off onto the bench.  I don't know if this will translate through post bake.  Who knows, I may just end up with a dense crust.  ???
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 23, 2013, 01:20:15 AM
I wanted to ask you HRI experts a question.  When the dough is rolled out, about how thick is it? 1/8" thick?  Also after rolling out and docking, do you sauce and top immediately and the pie goes into the oven right away or is the rolled dough allow to proof up a bit before baking? 

Thanks guys and gal. 
Chau
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on May 23, 2013, 07:53:59 AM
Chau,

I am not an expert on this style of pizza, but have given an HRI pizza a few attempts.  In Peter's Reply to Jay at 678 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg248622.html#msg248622 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg248622.html#msg248622) you can see what hydration, ADY amount, salt and corn oil were recommended by Peter.  Peter also tells how to prepare the dough in that post.  Jay replies at Reply 680 of what he used.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg248691.html#msg248691 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg248691.html#msg248691) Peter also explained more at Reply 713 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg249182.html#msg249182 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg249182.html#msg249182) Peter gave me advice at Reply 733 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg249424.html#msg249424 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg249424.html#msg249424) but if you look at what I posted next, I didn't try that. 

Since I never really had a real HRI pizza and only tried the frozen ones, this dough and pizza also pose a unique challenge for me and something I could not get right, especially with the flakiness in the crust. 

Are you really planning on making a clone HRI pizza, or do you just want to make a flaky crust?  If you really want to make a HRI clone, corn oil is used. 

Peter asked me at Reply 348 about if I wanted my mother's pie crust recipe converted to an HRI clone dough.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242823.html#msg242823 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242823.html#msg242823)  If you look at the photos I posted at Reply 372 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg243063.html#msg243063 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg243063.html#msg243063) you can see the crust was flaky.  When I tried to make the whole pizza, all didn't go well.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg243111.html#msg243111 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg243111.html#msg243111)

I think if I wasn't trying to make an attempted HRI clone, I might be able to get the flakiness in the crust with another formulation, but every time I did try to make an HRI clone with different problems along the way.  The last attempt I made was good in my opinion, but I think with me rolling the dough more than I should have really didn't make that pizza an HRI clone pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 23, 2013, 08:25:24 AM
Thank you Norma for putting up those links.  I did happen to read those posts before and again just now and they do help.  I don't think I can make a clone HRI crust b/c I've never had one so I won't be able to base my findings on something to compare to.  I would be happy to make a good tasting flaky Chicago thin type crust.   In one of those links you posted, I agree with Peter, that one of the challenges is to find the right balance between oil and hydration.  To get a dough that looks and behaves like their dough but will also keep the fluted edge during the bake. 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on May 23, 2013, 09:20:06 AM
Thank you Norma for putting up those links.  I did happen to read those posts before and again just now and they do help.  I don't think I can make a clone HRI crust b/c I've never had one so I won't be able to base my findings on something to compare to.  I would be happy to make a good tasting flaky Chicago thin type crust.   In one of those links you posted, I agree with Peter, that one of the challenges is to find the right balance between oil and hydration.  To get a dough that looks and behaves like their dough but will also keep the fluted edge during the bake.

Chau,

That is one of the problems I had when trying to make a clone HRI pizza.  Since I never really tasted a HRI pizza right out of the oven at one of their pizzerias I never will know if I made a decent attempt or not.  For me the frozen HRI pizzas really don't have a lot of taste, or aren't that special for me.  I am still interested in trying to make a HRI clone attempt again, but really don't know what to try next. 

Good luck with your experiments.  I know you have done many experiments and are successful many times so I will be watching to see where your experiments lead you.  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 23, 2013, 01:21:29 PM
Who knows, I may just end up with a dense crust.  ???
Well, I think part of the HRI crust is dense Chau. Although it has these pastry like layers it by no means is light an flaky. The pizza eats rather "heavy" if you will and with so much oil in the crust one feels like they have eaten twice as much as they actually have.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on May 23, 2013, 01:37:35 PM
^^i agree.  it's kind of like a very dense and oily phyllo pastry, if you can imagine that.  I actually think it's a kind of bland yet disgusting crust ( :-D), but different strokes, right!     :chef:
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 23, 2013, 02:48:19 PM
Well hell guys, maybe I'm on the right track!  :-D
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 23, 2013, 03:23:31 PM
Well hell guys, maybe I'm on the right track!  :-D
I'm sure you are...or at least not far off the track; your determination is legendary!  ;D

CDN's description is a good one for you Chau. Just don't get too caught up in the "phyllo" amount of layering(thank goodness you don't have to creat that much layering, huh?) this HRI is more subtle in the layering department. ;)  Random pockets/minor separating s might be a good descriptor. I would also like to add the word "crispyness" in here.

^^i agree.  it's kind of like a very dense and oily phyllo pastry, if you can imagine that.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: CDNpielover on May 23, 2013, 03:50:35 PM
yes, it's not at all like a phyllo, but I can't think of a better way to describe it.  Phyllo is the closest thing I can think of that flakes like that.  I've certainly never had a pie crust that flakes like a HRI pizza (although I don't eat a lot of pie LOL).
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 23, 2013, 03:58:03 PM
I need to google some side shots but from your descriptions, this crust sounds more like or closer to a Chicago deep dish crust then a traditional NY type pizza crust.  It is thin, dense, crispy, flaky, oily, little to no chew.  Is it similar to a Chi deep dish crust or still different? 
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 23, 2013, 04:02:46 PM
yes, it's not at all like a phyllo, but I can't think of a better way to describe it.  Phyllo is the closest thing I can think of that flakes like that.  I've certainly never had a pie crust that flakes like a HRI pizza (although I don't eat a lot of pie LOL).
CDN, do you think I would be wrong in describing that very bottom 1/16" of the crust; the part that gets real brown...would you say that is sort of like if you took and smashed down some phyllo dough and it then gives the HRI crust it's crispy snap?

I'm just trying to give Chau some helpful descriptions since he's never had one.

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 23, 2013, 04:09:22 PM
I need to google some side shots but from your descriptions, this crust sounds more like or closer to a Chicago deep dish crust then a traditional NY type pizza crust.  It is thin, dense, crispy, flaky, oily, little to no chew.  Is it similar to a Chi deep dish crust or still different?
Oh no; definetly nothing like NY. Look at all the oil in this thing.DD is much more appropriate Chau...but not as thin as a traditional Chi-thin. Somewhere in between the 2 styles.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on May 23, 2013, 04:09:53 PM
Chau,

You might want to look at Reply 571 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245795.html#msg245795 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245795.html#msg245795) if you already haven't to see the thickness and also the link on Slice to see some slice photos.  http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html#continued (http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html#continued)

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 23, 2013, 04:17:14 PM
Chau,

You might want to look at Reply 571 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245795.html#msg245795 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg245795.html#msg245795) if you already haven't to see the thickness and also the link on Slice to see some slice photos.  http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html#continued (http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/08/chicago-essential-home-run-inn.html#continued)

Norma
Excellent shots Norma.
I have been wanting to chime in an say that I think it's a mistake to say that there is not any chew to this crust. Don't want Chau to go down a road looking for just dry flakines. One of the serious eats pics shows some serious gum...how can that not be chewy? And that is not a defect pic either IMO. You have several things going on at once with this crust...it's very popular for good reason.
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: norma427 on May 23, 2013, 05:50:40 PM
Excellent shots Norma.
I have been wanting to chime in an say that I think it's a mistake to say that there is not any chew to this crust. Don't want Chau to go down a road looking for just dry flakines. One of the serious eats pics shows some serious gum...how can that not be chewy? And that is not a defect pic either IMO. You have several things going on at once with this crust...it's very popular for good reason.

Bob,

At Reply 636  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg247771.html#msg247771 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg247771.html#msg247771) I posted a link to some other photos at Home Run Inn.  I mentioned that I thought the one pizza had a gum line.  At Reply 717 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg249201.html#msg249201 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg249201.html#msg249201) Peter posts why the pizza might have a gum line. 

I had what I thought was a gum line on my pizza at Reply 282 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242171.html#msg242171 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242171.html#msg242171) Different attempts I made had somewhat of a gum line near the middle of the pizza.  I wouldn't call any of those pizzas I attempted dry flakiness in the crust, but then I can't recall any chewiness when I ate them either.  Those slices even were very easy to eat.  Maybe I don't even understand what chewiness is when it is related to the HRI pizza.

What do you recall when you ate a real HRI pizza if there was any chewiness or not?

Norma
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 23, 2013, 06:17:00 PM
Bob,

At Reply 636  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg247771.html#msg247771 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg247771.html#msg247771) I posted a link to some other photos at Home Run Inn.  I mentioned that I thought the one pizza had a gum line.  At Reply 717 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg249201.html#msg249201 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg249201.html#msg249201) Peter posts why the pizza might have a gum line. 

I had what I thought was a gum line on my pizza at Reply 282 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242171.html#msg242171 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6112.msg242171.html#msg242171) Different attempts I made had somewhat of a gum line near the middle of the pizza.  I wouldn't call any of those pizzas I attempted dry flakiness in the crust, but then I can't recall any chewiness when I ate them either.  Those slices even were very easy to eat.  Maybe I don't even understand what chewiness is when it is related to the HRI pizza.

What do you recall when you ate a real HRI pizza if there was any chewiness or not?

Norma
I believe chewiness is a very subjective word in pizza making Norma. One mans "chew" can be another mans "chaw"; if you will.  :D

From the many great pizzas and experiments to come out of Chau's kitchen; over time, I think I have come to understand his vocabulary when he describes his various doughs. He likes a thin egg shell like exterior with a "pillowy", melt in your mouth crumb. Not a dense; small, tight air holes, bread-like chewy structure that gets tough quickly upon cool down. I see that in many NY slice type pies.

Given that; in trying to describe HRI crust to Chau...I think this pizza has a minimal gum layer, stemming from a thin "chewy" dense pie dough like layer that incorporates pockets of separations, all sitting upon the final lower level of the dense, crispy thin bottom layer.

Hope I am making sense here.... :-\

Bob
Title: Re: Home Run Inn Success and Final Formulation
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 23, 2013, 11:23:16 PM
I made two pies,  64% hydration and 60% hydration.   Both were good and slightly different in texture