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Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 905730 times)

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Offline Pulcinella

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2860 on: November 23, 2015, 08:44:46 PM »
It’s beyond me how Ciro deal with those dough balls ??? I made huge batch of caputo blue dough <<6000 grams>> with 70% water which came out not as strong as I wanted after mixing 13 min in santos mixer. I was forced to bulk ferment it 16 hrs in the fridge. Then balled & proofed them in tubs for 11 hrs in room temp. The balls looked good & puffy but too soft to work with, they almost melted on my knuckles. how you strengthen a dough like that? impossible ??? I use cake yeast by the way.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2861 on: November 25, 2015, 06:50:34 AM »
It’s beyond me how Ciro deal with those dough balls ??? I made huge batch of caputo blue dough <<6000 grams>> with 70% water which came out not as strong as I wanted after mixing 13 min in santos mixer. I was forced to bulk ferment it 16 hrs in the fridge. Then balled & proofed them in tubs for 11 hrs in room temp. The balls looked good & puffy but too soft to work with, they almost melted on my knuckles. how you strengthen a dough like that? impossible ??? I use cake yeast by the way.

Dear Pulcinella, you wrote, "It’s beyond me how Ciro deals with those dough balls." According to Martin Heidegger’s phenomenology (discussed in reply #2713):

Skills allow things to show themselves. A skillful person sees things that an unskillful person does not see.

Profoundly meaningful. As I stated in reply #2856, above:

"The tension between dough elasticity and extensibility [construed as 'dough strength'] should be adjusted (primarily via mechanical, biochemical, and temporal means) by a pizzaiolo in a way to induce proper rising and maturation of dough balls. In addition, a pizzaiolo should effectuate a proper balance between dough elasticity and extensibility that is compatible with his particular levels of sensitivity and skills without compromising the essential qualities of the end products. It would not be practical if a pizzaiolo prepares soft and highly hydrated dough balls that he is not skillful enough to handle on the bench."

I do not know how you, under the circumstance at the time, formulated and accordingly mixed your 6-kilo Caputo Pizzeria dough of 70% hydration; nonetheless, drawing from my personal experiences with the Santos fork mixer, the 13-minute mixing was probably not enough to reach a suitable point of pasta that would carry your dough through a relatively long fermentation at the natural room temperature. Consequently, I guess, you were "forced" to resort to cold fermentation, which most probably further deprived your dough—which was originally devised to undergo warm fermentation—of building strength via the biochemical reactions occurring in your dough within the 16 hours it stayed in the refrigerator. So, I am still conjecturing, your cold dough bulk had a "superficial" strength by the time you took it out of the refrigerator and made dough balls, and the domino effect marched onward to the point whereby the dough balls, as you put it, "almost melted on your knuckles". How does one critically evaluate the rheological attributes of a cold dough which are coldly masked? By the time the dough catches up with the room temperature, if the dough is allowed to go that far at all, it might be too late.

A couple of days ago, I took notice of an argument in another thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40517.0) concerning cold and warm fermentation. As an amateur pizzaiolo, allow me to briefly propound my opinion, however limited in scope, in that regard.

In my opinion, if one desires to be a "professional pizzaiolo" in the traditional sense, he needs to learn how to use the natural room temperature to his advantage—does not matter how warm the temperature. This necessitates practical knowledge, skills, and few years of experience. If one hides the dough in a refrigerator day in and day out, how is he supposed to learn the complexities, qualitative states, and subtleties of dough development, dough fermentation, dough maturation, and et cetera? How is he supposed to sharpen his sensory apparatus in re the dough cues? How is he supposed to build skills?

I sincerely do not mean to offend anyone when I say: At the professional level, if one does not know how to make a proper Neapolitan pizza dough at the natural room temperature, then he has not learned how to make the dough. I have heard plenty of excuses for using cold fermentation from pizza operators. Many of them do so simply because they are not interested in burdening themselves with further culinary responsibilities, learning something new and exacting. (And, sometimes this is a decision influenced more by bu$iness concerns than culinary considerations.) Hence, they take the "art" out of the craft, which may eventually become dull and boring, a thing to do to make ends meet.

What is this post-modern ethics of expediency, convenience, easiness? It is already deemed by many as a virtue, unfortunately. What happened to the spirit of challenging ourselves, overcoming difficulties, turning our weaknesses into strengths, extending our responsibilities farther and farther, and even re-creating ourselves as works of art? If one wants to be a "professional pizzaiolo", he has got to earn it; it won’t come easy; it is a task.

Happy Thanksgiving, everybody!

Regards,
Omid
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 02:09:45 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2862 on: November 26, 2015, 07:04:27 PM »
I know with long fermentation you should knead as little as possible. . . .

why?  :chef:

If I am not mistaken, that principally ties in with the "dough strength" (i.e., the tension between dough elasticity and extensibility) induced as results of fermentative and other chemical reactions occurring subsequent to and on top of the strength that had already been attained mechanically as a result of mixing. The "mechanical" and "chemical" sides of this equation need to be coordinated/harmonized in accordance with the type of dough one desires to end up with. Good day!

Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pulcinella

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2863 on: December 01, 2015, 08:47:38 PM »
I made another batch using RT, fermented 6 hrs in bulk (73-75F), 12 hrs in balls (68-72F).

100% caputo pizzeria
70% water
0.089% cate yeast
3.3% salt

Got way better results than last try … still long way to go. Mixing the dough longer helped without doubt. This time I proofed my dough balls in fullsize (18” by 26”) Cambro plastic dough boxes. I used same arrangement & number of balls as Anthony Mangieri does in his picture below at Una Pizza Napoletana. THe problems was the balls spread crazy like pancakes after  12 hrs but I managed. I’ll keep trying. Thanks for all the help.

I baked mini baguettes in my home gas oven with leftover balls. They tasted damn good :drool: even BETTER than my NP pies!!!

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2864 on: December 03, 2015, 07:04:26 AM »
This time I proofed my dough balls in fullsize (18” by 26”) Cambro plastic dough boxes. I used same arrangement & number of balls as Anthony Mangieri does in his picture below at Una Pizza Napoletana. THe problems was the balls spread crazy like pancakes after  12 hrs but I managed. I’ll keep trying. Thanks for all the help.

If I were to prepare a Caputo Pizzeria dough of 70% or higher hydration, and ferment it at natural room temperature for 18 to 24 hours, my dough balls would overextend circumferentially as well—if each full-size dough tray contains 6 dough balls as shown in the picture of Anthony Mangier’s dough balls, above. To avoid the pancake effect of high-hydration dough balls, I recommend placing 12 or, better yet, 15 balls in a dough tray of the same size. Of course, the dough balls will be hemmed in by one another and will stick to each other upon reaching maturation, but that should pose no problems so long as proper techniques are used to extract them. It is not anything complicated. At the end, you may even ironically find it easier to extract a slack dough ball out of a dough tray tightly packed with dough balls.

Let me make some observations. In my assessment, dough balls rise better and stronger when they are contiguous or adjoined. It seems to have a positive effect on the strength of dough balls. At last, I think putting 6 dough balls in a full-size dough tray is an inefficient use of space, especially in a high-volume pizzeria.

In re my observations, take a look at the pictures attached hereunder. The 1st and 2nd pictures show the Caputo Pizzeria dough balls (about 260-270 grams each) I made last Monday for a pizza party. The dough, which contained about 70% of hydration, was fermented for about 24 hours at natural room temperature. In contrast, the 3rd and 4th pictures show the Caputo Pizzeria dough balls (about 260-270 grams each) I prepared last Tuesday just for the sake of demonstration. The dough contained about the same hydration and was fermented for about the same amount of time. I used the same dough tray (14" by 21.5") for both sessions. Big difference!

Omid
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 04:07:06 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

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Offline sub

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2865 on: December 03, 2015, 01:43:56 PM »

Let me make some observations. In my estimation, dough balls rise better and stronger when they are contiguous or adjoined. It seems to have a positive effect on the strength of dough balls.

It's called "The Sardine Effect"   :P

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2866 on: December 03, 2015, 05:50:19 PM »
I baked mini baguettes in my home gas oven with leftover balls. They tasted damn good :drool: even BETTER than my NP pies!!!

That is a thought-provoking remark which intimates the generalization: "Neapolitan pizza is not bread". Like an average bread dough, such as a baguette or the like, the Neapolitan pizza dough is composed of the same ingredients. Nonetheless, the latter is technically and methodologically distinct from the former. Accordingly, a Neapolitan pizza, abstracted from its toppings, bears different physical and gustatory characteristics than a bread such as a baguette. By analogy, not an exact analogy, one can think of milk. By definition, cheese is not butter and butter is not cheese, yet both are produced out of milk. It is a matter of how milk is processed and transformed into either cheese or butter, or even yogurt, ice cream, etc.

A decisive factor responsible for the distinction—not separation—between Neapolitan pizza and bread concerns how Neapolitan pizza is baked and its impact on the dough. If you bake a ficelle (petit baguette) in a 900ºF Neapolitan oven, it will not have the visual, physical, and gustatory characteristics of a ficelle. Conversely, if you bake a Neapolitan pizza in a 475ºF oven, it will not have the visual, physical, and gustatory attributes that essentially define Neapolitan pizza.

Unlike breads, Neapolitan pizza is baked at much higher temperatures for 90 seconds or less. The bake time is so short and temperature so high that the chemical reactions responsible for coloration, texture, and flavor seem to transpire differently. I wonder if certain chemical reactions responsible for the flavor of a baguette won’t take place or partially take place in a Neapolitan pizza during the course of baking. Good day!
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 04:14:28 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Online pizzadaheim

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2867 on: December 04, 2015, 12:18:18 AM »
Merhaba Omid.

 How do you calculate fresh yeast amount (gramm) when you prepare your dough?

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2868 on: December 04, 2015, 07:23:50 PM »
Merhaba Omid.

How do you calculate fresh yeast amount (gramm) when you prepare your dough?

Dear Pizzadaheim, to put it briefly, I calculate the amount of fresh yeast, or sourdough culture, by virtue of all the experiences I have accumulated so far. Since the room temperature and certain other critical factors are always in a state of flux, I do not have a definite chart, table, or formula to ascertain the amount of yeast.

By the way, not knowing what the word "merhaba" mean, I looked it up in in an online dictionary. Looks like it is a Turkish word of Arabic origin, meaning "hello". However, its literal meaning is "God is love" (mer meaning "Master/God", and haba meaning "love"). Did you think I am Turkish or Arabic? I am actually neither, but I appreciate your kind greeting.

Here are some pizzas I baked recently. Good day!
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 04:26:41 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2869 on: December 04, 2015, 07:24:03 PM »
Continued . . .
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

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Online pizzadaheim

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2870 on: December 05, 2015, 12:12:35 AM »
Dear Pizzadaheim, to put it briefly, I calculate the amount of fresh yeast by virtue of all the experiences I have accumulated so far. Since the room temperature is always in state of flux, I do not have a chart/table or anything like that. It is all in my head.

By the way, not knowing what the word "merhaba" mean, I looked it up in in an online dictionary. Looks like it is a Turkish word of Arabic origin, meaning "hello". However, its literal meaning is "God is love" (mer meaning "Master/God", and haba meaning "love"). Did you think I am Turkish or Arabic? I am actually neither, but I appreciate your kind greeting.

Here are some pizzas I baked recently. Good day!

Hello Omid. I thought they say merhaba in Iran as well but it seems like they dont.

Anyway. Very nice Pizza as always. Is that stefano ferrara oven mobile one or fixed one?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 04:24:53 AM by pizzadaheim »

Offline sub

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2871 on: December 05, 2015, 04:30:37 AM »
Here are some pizzas I baked recently. Good day!

Beautiful white pizzas Omid !

Another topping idea from Enzo Coccia:




Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2872 on: December 06, 2015, 09:00:58 AM »
Very nice Pizza as always. Is that stefano ferrara oven mobile one or fixed one?

Thank you! The Ferrara oven is a fixed one.

Hello Omid. I thought they say merhaba in Iran as well but it seems like they don't.

I did some research on the usage of the word "merhaba" in Iran. But, first, allow me to tell you something that may surprise you. The word "Iran" is a derivative of the Sanskrit word "Arya" (meaning, "noble"), from which we get the word "Aryan" ("the noble one"), not as a race, according to scholars, but as a people who speak a certain Indo-European language. Unfortunately, the term Aryan has been misused and abused ad nauseam. So, Iran means "the land of Aryans", a people who speak Persian, a member of the Indo-European family of languages, which also includes English and German. On the other hand, the Turkish language belongs to the Turkic family of languages while Arabic, along with Hebrew, belong to the Semitic family of languages. Per my research, while the Turkish-Arabic word "merhaba" is not of Persian origin, it has slipped into the lexicon (with a different definition: "bravo") primarily because of the Arab conquest of Persia, which was the darkest event in the entire history of the land. It has been said that, the first monarch of the Pahlavi dynasty of Persia changed the name of the country to Iran ("the land of Aryans") in 1935 in order to bring to prominence the pre-Islamic heritage of the land, before it was invaded and Islamized by Arabs. Good day!
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 09:12:56 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2873 on: December 06, 2015, 09:04:47 AM »
Beautiful white pizzas Omid !

Another topping idea from Enzo Coccia:

Thank you for the video and all your contributions to this forum. Good day!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline fagilia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2874 on: December 06, 2015, 02:06:30 PM »
Hello Omid,
Sorry but we have been very busy so i have not made time to read and understand your answere. I want to do it very carefully.
In any case what your wrote about RT fermentation was really pinpoint and fantastic.
You can not believe how much we learned this summer when temp was changing everyday with maby 10 degre celcius.
Summer in sweden is very unpredictable.
Some days we had to close when the dough was not good enough.
Thank you..

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2875 on: December 09, 2015, 04:10:10 AM »
It's called "The Sardine Effect"   :P

Monsieur Sub, have you ever been to the sourdough heritage library of Puratos in Belgium?

I invite everyone to take a look at these amazing videos made available by the Puratos sourdough library.







Here is a virtual tour of the sourdough library (make sure to view the available videos for each sourdough). This is a gold mine for any sourdough lover. Good day!

http://www.poppr.be/virtualtour/puratos/?nc=true#p=scene_p1
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/


Offline Don Luigi

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A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2877 on: December 09, 2015, 07:26:37 AM »
Omid and Sub,
thanks for those great links. You two are a true fountain of Pizza/Baking wisdom...Thanks for that!
On a neapolitan pizza journey with Wood fired oven Pizza Party 70x70
My Pizza

Offline Pulcinella

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2878 on: December 09, 2015, 06:10:56 PM »
If I were to prepare a Caputo Pizzeria dough of 70% or higher hydration, and ferment it at natural room temperature for 18 to 24 hours, my dough balls would overextend circumferentially as well—if each full-size dough tray contains 6 dough balls as shown in the picture of Anthony Mangier’s dough balls, above. To avoid the pancake effect of high-hydration dough balls, I recommend placing 12 or, better yet, 15 balls in a dough tray of the same size. Of course, the dough balls will be hemmed in by one another and will stick to each other upon reaching maturation, but that should pose no problems so long as proper techniques are used to extract them. It is not anything complicated. At the end, you may even ironically find it easier to extract a slack dough ball out of a dough tray tightly packed with dough balls.

Let me make some observations. In my assessment, dough balls rise better and stronger when they are contiguous or adjoined. It seems to have a positive effect on the strength of dough balls. At last, I think putting 6 dough balls in a full-size dough tray is an inefficient use of space, especially in a high-volume pizzeria.

In re my observations, take a look at the pictures attached hereunder. The 1st and 2nd pictures show the Caputo Pizzeria dough balls (about 260-270 grams each) I made last Monday for a pizza party. The dough, which contained about 70% of hydration, was fermented for about 24 hours at natural room temperature. In contrast, the 3rd and 4th pictures show the Caputo Pizzeria dough balls (about 260-270 grams each) I prepared last Tuesday just for the sake of demonstration. The dough contained about the same hydration and was fermented for about the same amount of time. I used the same dough tray (14" by 21.5") for both sessions. Big difference!

Omid

That’s a challenge proofing 12 or 15 sticky balls in one dough box. I’ll give it a try. I hope the dough balls don’t get claustrophobic :'( Which ball I should take out first, second, third and so on? Is there a order I should follow? Thanks  :chef:
« Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 06:12:30 PM by Pulcinella »

Offline sub

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2879 on: December 10, 2015, 03:09:43 AM »
Look at the end of this video (password: pummarola)


https://vimeo.com/109229633 


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