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Offline Wannabe Italian

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Making this Dough Fermentation better
« on: September 12, 2017, 10:28:13 AM »
Hello,

I want to change this pizza dough I do right now. At the moment my recipe is:

20Kg Caputo Rosso
5KG Caputo Blu
14,5 L Water (cold)
680g Salt
27g Yeast

- First the Flour, Salt and 14L Water get mixed about 5 Minutes.
- Then yeast gets dissolved in the remaining 0,5L Water and that goes in the mixer.
- Everything gets mixed another 10 Minutes.
- Then the dough rests for about 15 Minutes.
- Then the mixer gets turned on again just for about 10 Seconds and then I take out the dough.
- I form it into balls and put them in the fridge at 5-7C for about 72 hours.
- Then I take the balls out, let them come to temperature for about 1-2 hours, open them and bake them in a Stefano Ferrara Gas Oven.

The result looks like in the picture. 

But I want to change the dough so it gets more "real" Neapolitan Pizza. I want a much bigger crust which comes up more, but still for the restaurant long fermentation times in the fridge would be helpful. Who can help?

« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 01:43:16 AM by Wannabe Italian »

Offline vtsteve

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Re: Making this Dough Fermentation better
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2017, 11:39:01 AM »
How much do your dough balls weigh, and what's the final diameter of the pie? You might not be using enough dough.
In grams we trust.
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Offline Polo1523

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Re: Making this Dough Fermentation better
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2017, 12:24:51 PM »
I think your result is pretty good, you just need more weight on the dough and you'll get a bigger cornizione, make sure to press the air to the crust when opening.
Regards Leo.

Offline italdream

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Re: Making this Dough Fermentation better
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2017, 12:43:19 PM »
I'll let someone else chip in since I am not a dough expert.

My 2 cents are: as the previous poster said, you may want to start with checking the ball weight. There are two main "variants" of Neapolitan style re size. Regular size (Di Matteo, Sorbillo, Brandi etc.) and a ruota di carretto (much larger, Da Michele champions that style).

For the larger style you should go bigger. I suggest 275 gr.

If that is not what you are after, 240-250 should do it IMHO.

For a larger cornicione, there are many factors in play. See below reply (discussing in the context of NY style)

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg104559#msg104559

The main two factors I would play with are increasing hydration by a few percentage points and increasing yeast until you find the desired result.

Also work on opening technique, work the dough from the center towards the circumference.

Finally, it is debatable whether a bigger crust makes a pie more or less Neapolitan. Not everybody agrees with it. By reference, look at different crusts I get based on experimentation on different hydration, yeast percentages and fermentation times. My friends cannot agree on which is more or less Neapolitan (and me neither, frankly).
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Making this Dough Fermentation better
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2017, 03:07:13 PM »
W.I.;
Your dough absorption is on the low side at only 58%, so you might consider increasing it gradually (2% increments) to get it up closer to 65% or a little higher. Additionally, what kind of yeast are you using, ADY, IDY, or CY?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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Offline Wannabe Italian

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Re: Making this Dough Fermentation better
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2017, 03:12:05 PM »
the dough balls weigh about 260grams when I form them...
I think increasing the hydration and maybe yeast would be the way for me.

What do you think of the caputo mix? Should I try using more Caputo Blu? I want the crust to be more airy and going up like in the picture Pizza 5...
Would some time bulk fermentation also help?

Right now I use CY, I want to change it and add some Lievito Madre to it. I "have" to stay with cake yeast, to get a consistent result.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 03:16:14 PM by Wannabe Italian »

Offline Wannabe Italian

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Re: Making this Dough Fermentation better
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2017, 03:20:09 PM »
Today I started the following dough: 

Water (62%)
salt (2,9%)
Caputo Blu Pizzeria (100%)
cake Yeast (0,17%)

- mixing,
- then bulk fermentation at 7C for 24h
- then forming balls and rest them fr 48h at 7C

What do you think of that?

Offline vtsteve

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Re: Making this Dough Fermentation better
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2017, 12:20:05 AM »
Today I started the following dough: 

Water (62%)
salt (2,9%)
Caputo Blu Pizzeria (100%)
cake Yeast (0,17%)

- mixing,
- then bulk fermentation at 7C for 24h
- then forming balls and rest them fr 48h at 7C

What do you think of that?

Going by the yeast chart at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg355933#msg355933 I would say you don't have enough CY for your proposed schedule. I would guess around 0.24% CY, by eyeball interpolation, for 72 hours total at 7C.

If you've already mixed, check the doughs 8-10 hours before use and warm them up early if they're underdeveloped.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 12:24:26 AM by vtsteve »
In grams we trust.
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Making this Dough Fermentation better
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2017, 01:35:04 AM »
I totally agree with Steve. I don't understand your comment on getting more consistent results with CY. CY is the least consistent type of yeast you can get unless you're receiving it fresh from a distributor and using it in less than a week. It is also important that the yeast is never allowed to drop in temperature below 45F....no need to suspend the CY as it can be just crumbled and added right on top of the flour when machine mixing. ADY when correctly hydrated/activated is more consistent than CY if you look at the performance of the yeast over a several week period. IDY is the king of yeast types when it comes to consistency, plus it doesn't need to be hydrated/activated when machine mixing so it has the one advantage that CY has in that it can be added directly to the flour.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Wannabe Italian

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Re: Making this Dough Fermentation better
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2017, 01:53:01 AM »
I totally agree with Steve. I don't understand your comment on getting more consistent results with CY. CY is the least consistent type of yeast you can get unless you're receiving it fresh from a distributor and using it in less than a week. It is also important that the yeast is never allowed to drop in temperature below 45F....no need to suspend the CY as it can be just crumbled and added right on top of the flour when machine mixing. ADY when correctly hydrated/activated is more consistent than CY if you look at the performance of the yeast over a several week period. IDY is the king of yeast types when it comes to consistency, plus it doesn't need to be hydrated/activated when machine mixing so it has the one advantage that CY has in that it can be added directly to the flour.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Ok I understand. I am here to learn so thanks for your words!
Is IDY developing better in the low temperatures I am using? Better than CY?
How much IDY should I use, from Craigs chard I would say 0,056%?!?

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Offline Wannabe Italian

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Re: Making this Dough Fermentation better
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2017, 03:15:49 AM »
Going by the yeast chart at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg355933#msg355933 I would say you don't have enough CY for your proposed schedule. I would guess around 0.24% CY, by eyeball interpolation, for 72 hours total at 7C.

If you've already mixed, check the doughs 8-10 hours before use and warm them up early if they're underdeveloped.


Than I read the chart wrong. I thought for 72H at 7C/44F it says 0,17%...
I would take the balls out about 1 hour before using them to let them get I little more Temperatur. You would suggest 0.24%? And then still let them get temperature a bit?

Offline vtsteve

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Re: Making this Dough Fermentation better
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2017, 09:51:12 AM »

Than I read the chart wrong. I thought for 72H at 7C/44F it says 0,17%...
I would take the balls out about 1 hour before using them to let them get I little more Temperatur. You would suggest 0.24%? And then still let them get temperature a bit?

Find your temperature on the left, about 11 spaces down (I'm using 7.2C). Now move to the left until you hit the correct number of hours, about midway between 81 and 60 hours. Then move up to the top of that column.

There are three rows across the top of the chart, for ADY (uppermost), IDY (center) and CY (lowest).

For CY, the yeast amount is between 0.2% and 0.3% (lowest bar).
For IDY, it's in the range of 0.064-0.096% (middle bar).
For ADY, it's 0.084-0.126% (top bar).

The standard disclaimer applies:
Thats the goal to help people find a starting point not to tell them exactly how to formulate their dough.

For what it's worth, it has been spot-on for me (with IDY), from 36-72F. Thanks for doing this, Craig!
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 09:58:26 AM by vtsteve »
In grams we trust.
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Offline Wannabe Italian

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Re: Making this Dough Fermentation better
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2017, 10:12:27 AM »
Find your temperature on the left, about 11 spaces down (I'm using 7.2C). Now move to the left until you hit the correct number of hours, about midway between 81 and 60 hours. Then move up to the top of that column.

There are three rows across the top of the chart, for ADY (uppermost), IDY (center) and CY (lowest).

For CY, the yeast amount is between 0.2% and 0.3% (lowest bar).
For IDY, it's in the range of 0.064-0.096% (middle bar).
For ADY, it's 0.084-0.126% (top bar).

The standard disclaimer applies:
For what it's worth, it has been spot-on for me (with IDY), from 36-72F. Thanks for doing this, Craig!

I will just wait and see now, I just formed the balls now after 24h and the dough feels quite good... ( will keep you updated)
I also now made my own chart to calculate my times and temperatures...

I think the doughs will develop different on any spot of the world anyways. There are no numbers you can follow the achieve your perfect wanted result. You have to find out on your own. But it really helps to have people you can communicate and discuss with...

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Making this Dough Fermentation better
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2017, 12:08:56 PM »
For what it's worth, it has been spot-on for me (with IDY), from 36-72F. Thanks for doing this, Craig!

 ;D
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Offline Wannabe Italian

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Re: Making this Dough Fermentation better
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2017, 05:58:11 AM »
Doughballs  after 72H of fermentation at 7C looking like this. Shouldn't they be bigger already?
 
recipe was:
100 % Caputo 00Pizzeria Four
62 % Water
2,9 % Salt
0,096 % IDY

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Offline vtsteve

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Re: Making this Dough Fermentation better
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2017, 09:39:08 AM »
Are you sure about the temperature (confirmed with IR or quick-read thermometer)? You can't always trust the knob or digital display on the refrigerator. Shooting the dough ball several times with the IR, over the course of a day, is the best way to figure out what's really going on.

Keeping a ball in a clear container, so you can see what the underside looks like, is helpful when you're trying a new routine. Do they look like they've grown *at all*, or just flattened out?

check the doughs 8-10 hours before use and warm them up early if they're underdeveloped.

If they start to take off, you can always pop them back in the fridge.
In grams we trust.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Making this Dough Fermentation better
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2017, 09:46:18 AM »
How/why are you holding dough at 7C? Like Steve asked, are you sure about the temp? That would be way too high for a refrigerator which should be <5C.

What is your complete workflow?
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Offline Wannabe Italian

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Re: Making this Dough Fermentation better
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2017, 10:22:50 AM »
Are you sure about the temperature (confirmed with IR or quick-read thermometer)? You can't always trust the knob or digital display on the refrigerator. Shooting the dough ball several times with the IR, over the course of a day, is the best way to figure out what's really going on.

Keeping a ball in a clear container, so you can see what the underside looks like, is helpful when you're trying a new routine. Do they look like they've grown *at all*, or just flattened out?

If they start to take off, you can always pop them back in the fridge.

I checked the temperature with a good thermometer and it really is at 6-7C. I keep it at that temperature because the fridge is just at this temperature...
I will try the clear ball container! That is a really good advice when trying new recipes.
They look more ore less just flattened out, not going up...


Offline Wannabe Italian

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Re: Making this Dough Fermentation better
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2017, 10:32:48 AM »
How/why are you holding dough at 7C? Like Steve asked, are you sure about the temp? That would be way too high for a refrigerator which should be <5C.

What is your complete workflow?


workflow is:
- In the machine I mix first the water (4C 62%) with the IDY (0,096%)
- leave running for a minute, than add 1/3 of the flour (caputo 00 pizzeria)
- I let the flour and water come together
- after 5 Minutes I start adding little by little more flour until everything comes together smooth
- than let the dough run for 10 minutes in the machine
- stop the machine and relax the dough for 10 minutes
- turn it on again, just a few seconds until it is really smooth
- then I either tried bulk fermentation for 24h, then making balls and rest them 48 hours.And I tried balling straight and resting for 72h

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Making this Dough Fermentation better
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2017, 10:34:07 AM »
In a ferment >12 hours or so, the balls really won't go up much unless they are constrained by the container or other balls. The gluten relaxes and they tend to expand outwards.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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